Season 2011-12 Fan Articles
Fan Power: The Myth of Johnson's Exit
By Peter Fearon :: 13/12/2011
70 Comments (»Last)
A myth is being erected to support the Blue Union?s futile demands for Bill Kenwright?s departure. It is that a crescendo of public outrage and protest forced the resignation of Peter Johnson in 1998 and therefore similar protests by fans can force Kenwright to go too. History ? and reality ? tells a different story.
There were all kinds of factors leading to Johnson?s departure and if the outcry by fans had any role to play it was minimal. Johnson was very unpopular but it was not the People's Club's People Power that drove him out. What actually happened was that Johnson?s businesses were losing money, he needed to raise cash to support his core business and the FA was threatening to ban both Everton and Tranmere Rovers from knock-out competitions if he did not unload his shares in one or other of them.
Johnson was feuding with Walter Smith at the time over another myth ? one conceived by Smith himself ? that Duncan Ferguson had been sold without Smith?s knowledge. As both Smith and Ferguson had the same agent it seems highly unlikely that Smith could really have been in the dark. Johnson was actually pushed out in a palace coup engineered by Smith and Bill Kenwright who had been a board member for some time. That, incidentally, was probably one of the reasons why Kenwright remained loyal to Smith long after it was clear that he had to go.
Johnson?s unpalatable alternative to giving in to Kenwright was selling his interest to one of his own long-time business rivals, Gerry White, which he was not prepared to do.
The myth surrounding Johnson?s departure also serves to conceal the many positive achievements of the Johnson era. Many fans either forget or simply were not around for the sense of utter paralysis which had gripped the club in the period before Johnson and which he relieved. There was significant investment during his spell in charge and of course, the crowning achievement was the FA Cup win.
The situation today is very different. Blue Union wants Kenwright to leave but their main objection to him appears to be that neither he nor the other two biggest shareholders are Russian oligarchs, Middle Eastern tyrants or chief executives of American multinational sports conglomerates.
Absent the arrival of a deep pockets buyer at Kenwright?s door, it?s difficult to understand what Blue Union wants him to do. Resign in favour of another board member as Johnson did? What good would that do? It would have no impact on the amount available for investment. I realise there is widespread belief that Kenwright isn?t trying hard enough to sell the club but there is no real evidence of that.
The fact is that Everton isn?t exactly a magnet for anyone who wants to buy a football club. We are located in a city with a dwindling population and fan base. We are living in the shadow of another club in that city. The sport generally is polarizing among the haves and have nots and we are very much among the have nots. We would need not only a huge amount of money invested in players but at the very least a major upgrade at Goodison if not a brand new stadium We are talking a massive investment above and beyond the money needed to buy the club in the first place.
There aren?t exactly hordes of potential buyers with both the resources and the commitment to do that. And what if a buyer is found? It?s Kenwright?s responsibility to ensure that the buyer isn?t under funded, has no ulterior motives, isn?t, for example, raising the money to purchase the club by borrowing cash using the club itself as collateral. We have seen how potentially damaging that kind of thing can be at other clubs.
I?m not saying Kenwright hasn?t made some howlers or that we don?t need a change at board level, but I suggest that instead of simply protesting, Blue Union sets out to create a consortium of investors. Approach US business tycoons and Middle East potentates and Russian oligarchs and forge an entity capable of doing everything that Kenwright is blamed for not doing. They might understand then how arduous and daunting the process is. In the meantime, the single most beneficial thing any fan can do right now is to demand inventive leadership, fresh inspiration and new perspective where it counts most ? in the manager?s seat.
Reader Comments (70)
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Alan Clarke
2 Posted 14/12/2011 at 07:17:11
2 Posted 14/12/2011 at 07:17:11
Wow! I agree that Johnson left because of finances but how misinformed are you about the Blue Union? This reads almost like the interview Kenwright gave to Radio Merseyside after the Wolves game.
With the Prince of Spin now gone, are you looking for his job, Peter?
With the Prince of Spin now gone, are you looking for his job, Peter?
Eric Myles
3 Posted 14/12/2011 at 07:21:06
3 Posted 14/12/2011 at 07:21:06
"Absent the arrival of a deep pockets buyer at Kenwright?s door, it?s difficult to understand what Blue Union wants him to do."
It's quite clear what the BU stated aims are if you open your eyes.
It's quite clear what the BU stated aims are if you open your eyes.
Eric Myles
4 Posted 14/12/2011 at 07:25:38
4 Posted 14/12/2011 at 07:25:38
So, Peter, you're saying that, because you liked Johnson and thought he did a good job, we should put up with the BS from Kenwright?
I don't see how the two things are related?
I don't see how the two things are related?
Stephen Kenny
5 Posted 14/12/2011 at 08:25:57
5 Posted 14/12/2011 at 08:25:57
"Blue Union wants Kenwright to leave but their main objection to him appears to be that neither he nor the other two biggest shareholders are Russian oligarchs, Middle Eastern tyrants or chief executives of American multinational sports conglomerates."
Really??? I think ruthlessly asset-stripping a business for a sustained period of time to the point it can barely function through ineptitude and ego are more likely objections.
Really??? I think ruthlessly asset-stripping a business for a sustained period of time to the point it can barely function through ineptitude and ego are more likely objections.
Alan Williams
6 Posted 14/12/2011 at 08:00:10
6 Posted 14/12/2011 at 08:00:10
Peter, I disagree about what BU have to do in your last paragraph; it's not their business to sell so approaching people like this, selling a business you don?t own, is fantasy and unfair to label that on BU shoulders.
What BU need to do is try and get a mandate from match going fans which clearly isn?t happening as they only secured just 0.8% at the last protest which is a pittance if they want to move forward. The approach in my opinion of the BU is far too confrontational and they need to embrace fans rather than driving a wedge between us; also at some point they need to swallow some pride and re-open talks with the club otherwise this tide of publicity will fade away quicker than the BU was pasted together.
We have an opportunity to get a fans group part of our great club and that should be theirs and everybodies goal. EFC will be around a lot longer than Bill Kenwright and we should all accept that simple fact as the BK issue is overshadowing an excellent opportunity here? this is not some tin-pot industrial dispute so have a bit more inclusiveness in your approach to change. COYB
What BU need to do is try and get a mandate from match going fans which clearly isn?t happening as they only secured just 0.8% at the last protest which is a pittance if they want to move forward. The approach in my opinion of the BU is far too confrontational and they need to embrace fans rather than driving a wedge between us; also at some point they need to swallow some pride and re-open talks with the club otherwise this tide of publicity will fade away quicker than the BU was pasted together.
We have an opportunity to get a fans group part of our great club and that should be theirs and everybodies goal. EFC will be around a lot longer than Bill Kenwright and we should all accept that simple fact as the BK issue is overshadowing an excellent opportunity here? this is not some tin-pot industrial dispute so have a bit more inclusiveness in your approach to change. COYB
Mark Jensen
7 Posted 14/12/2011 at 08:57:31
7 Posted 14/12/2011 at 08:57:31
Yet another boring post with the point being that the fans and BU should go out there and find a buyer! I am sick of these type of posts.
It is the board's job to either find a buyer or improve turnover so we can compete in the Premier League. The accounts over the past 10 years prove they are not doing this. Take away TV rights and gate receipts and the board provide a poor supporting structure for the manager.
I am sure this is at the crux of the BU approach. The board should either 'man up' and provide Premier League support to the manager or move aside and let someone who can do it.
IT IS NOT THE SUPPORTERS' JOB TO BE SUPPORTERS AND DO THE BOARDS WORK TOO!!!
It is the board's job to either find a buyer or improve turnover so we can compete in the Premier League. The accounts over the past 10 years prove they are not doing this. Take away TV rights and gate receipts and the board provide a poor supporting structure for the manager.
I am sure this is at the crux of the BU approach. The board should either 'man up' and provide Premier League support to the manager or move aside and let someone who can do it.
IT IS NOT THE SUPPORTERS' JOB TO BE SUPPORTERS AND DO THE BOARDS WORK TOO!!!
Eric Myles
8 Posted 14/12/2011 at 09:11:51
8 Posted 14/12/2011 at 09:11:51
^I thought it was more a Moyes out post Mark.
Very well disguised though.
Very well disguised though.
Eric Myles
9 Posted 14/12/2011 at 09:15:07
9 Posted 14/12/2011 at 09:15:07
Alan, it's more like BK is driving a wedge between the fans ? and it started with Desperation Kirkby.
Mark Jensen
10 Posted 14/12/2011 at 09:18:08
10 Posted 14/12/2011 at 09:18:08
Mmm.... not sure, Eric. I've posted a few "Moyes Out" posts lately myself!
I am just fed up with people asking their fellow supporters to do the job the board are totally incapable of. It makes no sense at all.
I would not ask someone to do my job for me so that I could fill my pockets with cash and also keep my post! Then again if I could, why not? Kenwright is!
I am just fed up with people asking their fellow supporters to do the job the board are totally incapable of. It makes no sense at all.
I would not ask someone to do my job for me so that I could fill my pockets with cash and also keep my post! Then again if I could, why not? Kenwright is!
Eric Myles
11 Posted 14/12/2011 at 09:23:27
11 Posted 14/12/2011 at 09:23:27
I agree Mark, but it was the last line of Peter's post that gives it away for me.
Tom Hughes
12 Posted 14/12/2011 at 08:49:26
12 Posted 14/12/2011 at 08:49:26
Alan..... feel free to join the BU and air your views and ideas... they are entirely inclusive and open to suggestions. They also have thousands of hits on their sites so I'm not sure what your percentile stat means.... not to mention the thousands of their supporters who have voted with their feet.
The BU is a reaction to the dire situation the club finds itself in. They are a group of dedicated fans who have their own lives to lead and jobs to do. They cannot and should not be expected to solve all the club's self-inflicted problems to justify their existence.
They exist purely and simply because we have been seriously mismanaged and run into the ground... and this has been allowed to happen because, amongst other things, the club had the local media in its pocket. The BU have simply voiced those genuine concerns, and in the process raised awareness, challenging the local media and prompting greater interest in the national and international media.
Meanwhile, KEIOC have engaged other parties (including the club) wih their Football Quarter concept (and other ideas) and this directly led to the recent interested parties showing interest in the club... So, contrary to some opinion, they are being constructive and pro-active as well as offering a valid vehicle for protest.
The alternative is to meekly accept the failings and thus condone them. This has been allowed to happen throughout the current board's tenure, with some absolute howlers ignored and/or forgotten, culminating in the dysfunctional farce we have now... all predicted several years ago!
The BU is a reaction to the dire situation the club finds itself in. They are a group of dedicated fans who have their own lives to lead and jobs to do. They cannot and should not be expected to solve all the club's self-inflicted problems to justify their existence.
They exist purely and simply because we have been seriously mismanaged and run into the ground... and this has been allowed to happen because, amongst other things, the club had the local media in its pocket. The BU have simply voiced those genuine concerns, and in the process raised awareness, challenging the local media and prompting greater interest in the national and international media.
Meanwhile, KEIOC have engaged other parties (including the club) wih their Football Quarter concept (and other ideas) and this directly led to the recent interested parties showing interest in the club... So, contrary to some opinion, they are being constructive and pro-active as well as offering a valid vehicle for protest.
The alternative is to meekly accept the failings and thus condone them. This has been allowed to happen throughout the current board's tenure, with some absolute howlers ignored and/or forgotten, culminating in the dysfunctional farce we have now... all predicted several years ago!
Shaun Brennan
13 Posted 14/12/2011 at 08:48:19
13 Posted 14/12/2011 at 08:48:19
Peter, I think you miss the point about the BU.
They simply don't want Kenwright to resign.
The BU don't want Kenwright to be the man in charge of handling the sale of Everton.
They simply don't want Kenwright to resign.
The BU don't want Kenwright to be the man in charge of handling the sale of Everton.
Phil Walling
14 Posted 14/12/2011 at 09:29:30
14 Posted 14/12/2011 at 09:29:30
Tom #12, I agree with all you say above but believe your support for Moyes on the Noble thread is misplaced. Why can`t people see that the manager is totally complicit in his Chairman`s actions ? or lack thereof ? and that, if the man was interested in anything other than a continuance of his ridiculous salary, he would have thrown his toys out a long time ago and thus provoked a fans` backlash that even the rhino backed Kenwright could not have withstood!
Like a good many on here, I hate the shite Moyes dishes up ? and pragmatism is an easy excuse ? but had he sounded off long ago, he might at least have done us the favour of getting rid of this excuse of a chairman.
Like a good many on here, I hate the shite Moyes dishes up ? and pragmatism is an easy excuse ? but had he sounded off long ago, he might at least have done us the favour of getting rid of this excuse of a chairman.
Kevin Tully
15 Posted 14/12/2011 at 09:40:20
15 Posted 14/12/2011 at 09:40:20
Peter,
The club are not even deemed as creditworthy by rating agencies. In other words, it is recommended you are paid cash up front before any transaction.
So, when people question who will take BK's place, my reply would be anyone with enough capital to give us some credibility, and has a decent business plan.
In two seasons, we will probably be insolvent; the only way out of the current mess is to sell players.
Even if the figures being quoted are close to what is the actual asking price, we will never be bought. Anyone can see they get the club for next to nothing if they play the waiting game.
The club are not even deemed as creditworthy by rating agencies. In other words, it is recommended you are paid cash up front before any transaction.
So, when people question who will take BK's place, my reply would be anyone with enough capital to give us some credibility, and has a decent business plan.
In two seasons, we will probably be insolvent; the only way out of the current mess is to sell players.
Even if the figures being quoted are close to what is the actual asking price, we will never be bought. Anyone can see they get the club for next to nothing if they play the waiting game.
Danny Broderick
16 Posted 14/12/2011 at 10:30:24
16 Posted 14/12/2011 at 10:30:24
Two points, Peter:
"Blue Union...sets out to create a consortium of investors. Approach US business tycoons and Middle East potentates and Russian oligarchs and forge an entity capable of doing everything that Kenwright is blamed for not doing."
Hang on a minute, surely this is for the club to do? How can an external party present the club for sale without the blessing of the club? The club alone has access to all of the smallprint regarding debts, how much is owed to whom, terms and conditions etc., how many loans are outstanding.
"...the single most beneficial thing any fan can do right now is to demand inventive leadership, fresh inspiration and new perspective where it counts most ? in the manager?s seat."
Forget it. Besides, Kenwright would never sack Moyes. Moyes needs to buck his ideas up big time, but problem No 1 at Everton is the board and their lack of investment. Getting rid of them has to be the absolute priority.
"Blue Union...sets out to create a consortium of investors. Approach US business tycoons and Middle East potentates and Russian oligarchs and forge an entity capable of doing everything that Kenwright is blamed for not doing."
Hang on a minute, surely this is for the club to do? How can an external party present the club for sale without the blessing of the club? The club alone has access to all of the smallprint regarding debts, how much is owed to whom, terms and conditions etc., how many loans are outstanding.
"...the single most beneficial thing any fan can do right now is to demand inventive leadership, fresh inspiration and new perspective where it counts most ? in the manager?s seat."
Forget it. Besides, Kenwright would never sack Moyes. Moyes needs to buck his ideas up big time, but problem No 1 at Everton is the board and their lack of investment. Getting rid of them has to be the absolute priority.
Colin Fitzpatrick
18 Posted 14/12/2011 at 10:52:50
18 Posted 14/12/2011 at 10:52:50
Peter, whilst I agree that Johnson left for his own good reasons and I?d also have to agree there were many positive achievements during the Johnson era ? far more than in the subsequent era ? the rest of your piece reveals more about you than the Blue Union, your contention is utter shite.
Nobody I know is bemoaning the current board's lack or presence of personal fortune; nobody is saying they simply want Kenwright and the board replacing with an oligarch, or any passing billionaire for that matter; what the Blue Union are saying is the criteria for the next owner should be based on something other than simply someone who comes up with the asking price which on the available evidence, man sitting in a one-bedroom flat in Singapore and the lack of progress on the sale front, is a worrying possibility.
I would say what most Evertonians want is somebody with the resources and ability to implement and deliver a cohesive business plan, something the incumbent board has spectacularly failed to do.
I?m sure you?d welcome the Blue Union chanting ?sack the board? and other mindless drivel, the absence of which necessitates the invention of fallacious claims which are designed only to dumb down the concerns of Evertonians everywhere who resent what Bill Kenwright and his cohorts have done to their club.
Whilst it would be absurd for the Blue Union to reveal their strategy, you?ll be displeased to know it?s working perfectly and they certainly won?t be looking for a consortium or anything else. It?s not their responsibility; that?s Bill Kenwright?s... and, after twelve years of trying, he?s proven he?s not up to the task hence the suggestion that the process should be outsourced to an organisation who knows what they?re doing.
It always amuses me how people who sit behind a keyboard and essentially do fuck all are always offering advice to those who actually engage the club but I suppose that?s the nature of the beast, that?s sums up what internet forums have to offer.
Alan #6,
Dear me, you disappointed me, Alan, that?s tantamount to insider trading.
There?s actually no need to waste valuable time on developing a strategy to make you popular as you?re suggesting, I?m sure you know this; you?ll always gain popularity automatically when you?re proven right and there will always be a segment of fuckwits who will never believe what is staring them in the face; C'est la vie.
You?re confused in your understanding of the objective of a protest march, Alan; it isn?t designed to obtain a mandate, it?s designed to attract attention to the cause and as the BU demonstrations attracted Sky, BBC, ITV, ESPN, Radio stations and most of the press on both occasions. There was even a nice picture of me in a centrespread of FourFourTwo... there?s a thing, I think you'll agree that the BU more than admirably achieved their objective.
It?s a game, Alan, the leaked emails revealed the game was afoot and, as in every game, there are winners and losers and to win, your focus should never be averted from your goal; but keep on trying anyway, fella!!!
Nobody I know is bemoaning the current board's lack or presence of personal fortune; nobody is saying they simply want Kenwright and the board replacing with an oligarch, or any passing billionaire for that matter; what the Blue Union are saying is the criteria for the next owner should be based on something other than simply someone who comes up with the asking price which on the available evidence, man sitting in a one-bedroom flat in Singapore and the lack of progress on the sale front, is a worrying possibility.
I would say what most Evertonians want is somebody with the resources and ability to implement and deliver a cohesive business plan, something the incumbent board has spectacularly failed to do.
I?m sure you?d welcome the Blue Union chanting ?sack the board? and other mindless drivel, the absence of which necessitates the invention of fallacious claims which are designed only to dumb down the concerns of Evertonians everywhere who resent what Bill Kenwright and his cohorts have done to their club.
Whilst it would be absurd for the Blue Union to reveal their strategy, you?ll be displeased to know it?s working perfectly and they certainly won?t be looking for a consortium or anything else. It?s not their responsibility; that?s Bill Kenwright?s... and, after twelve years of trying, he?s proven he?s not up to the task hence the suggestion that the process should be outsourced to an organisation who knows what they?re doing.
It always amuses me how people who sit behind a keyboard and essentially do fuck all are always offering advice to those who actually engage the club but I suppose that?s the nature of the beast, that?s sums up what internet forums have to offer.
Alan #6,
Dear me, you disappointed me, Alan, that?s tantamount to insider trading.
There?s actually no need to waste valuable time on developing a strategy to make you popular as you?re suggesting, I?m sure you know this; you?ll always gain popularity automatically when you?re proven right and there will always be a segment of fuckwits who will never believe what is staring them in the face; C'est la vie.
You?re confused in your understanding of the objective of a protest march, Alan; it isn?t designed to obtain a mandate, it?s designed to attract attention to the cause and as the BU demonstrations attracted Sky, BBC, ITV, ESPN, Radio stations and most of the press on both occasions. There was even a nice picture of me in a centrespread of FourFourTwo... there?s a thing, I think you'll agree that the BU more than admirably achieved their objective.
It?s a game, Alan, the leaked emails revealed the game was afoot and, as in every game, there are winners and losers and to win, your focus should never be averted from your goal; but keep on trying anyway, fella!!!
Chris Verghoden
19 Posted 14/12/2011 at 11:14:58
19 Posted 14/12/2011 at 11:14:58
Ah well Col , at least you see the positive effect of being in a FourFourTwo. Get down to Finch Farm and spread the word.
Les Roberts
20 Posted 14/12/2011 at 10:35:04
20 Posted 14/12/2011 at 10:35:04
The Johnson era really does need re-evaluating in the face of the current regime. As Peter mentions, many of us forget the state that the club was in when Johnson took over from (I think) Dr David Marsh in 1994, in a downward spiral and this was only some 7 (seven!) years after we had last won the title.
There were also massive mistakes made by Johnson but the worst of these appears to have been that he was a Kopite! That's not to say he never got things wrong, he did, and I think he eventually got out of his depth but he was better qualified to run a football club than any of his successors at Everton, having done a great job with Tranmere during the late 80s/early 90s.
I do disagree with Peter's assertion that it's the BU's role to find investment ? it isn't... and who, in the business world, would take them seriously anyway? It'd be like turning up on Dragon's Den with no idea of profit, loss, turnover or anything!
This is Kenwright's job, as he is at pains to point out, but he is simply not good enough ? as his numerous and unforgivable failings show!
Be careful what you wish for? It seems that advice has come a good 10 years too late!
There were also massive mistakes made by Johnson but the worst of these appears to have been that he was a Kopite! That's not to say he never got things wrong, he did, and I think he eventually got out of his depth but he was better qualified to run a football club than any of his successors at Everton, having done a great job with Tranmere during the late 80s/early 90s.
I do disagree with Peter's assertion that it's the BU's role to find investment ? it isn't... and who, in the business world, would take them seriously anyway? It'd be like turning up on Dragon's Den with no idea of profit, loss, turnover or anything!
This is Kenwright's job, as he is at pains to point out, but he is simply not good enough ? as his numerous and unforgivable failings show!
Be careful what you wish for? It seems that advice has come a good 10 years too late!
Robbie Muldoon
21 Posted 14/12/2011 at 12:17:15
21 Posted 14/12/2011 at 12:17:15
OOOOOUUUUFFF ? nice upper cut at the end there Peter, I didn't see that coming! It's why Everton today is a very complicated case. You are right: change in the manager's seat would bring the biggest, most rapid change in the club BUT the man in charge of making and implementing that decision is Bill Kenwright.
Peter Laing
22 Posted 14/12/2011 at 12:52:00
22 Posted 14/12/2011 at 12:52:00
As far as I am aware, Peter, the Blue Union have proposed / suggested that an interim board be appointed with the sole mandate of finding a buyer. Kenwright has after all been searching 24/7 for the past 3 years without success.
Martin Broughton was brought in by the banks to sell Liverpool from under the noses of Hicks and Gillette who virtually ensured foreclosure due to their burdgeoning debts and unrealistic asking price. Are we not in a similar position ourselves?
Martin Broughton was brought in by the banks to sell Liverpool from under the noses of Hicks and Gillette who virtually ensured foreclosure due to their burdgeoning debts and unrealistic asking price. Are we not in a similar position ourselves?
John Keating
23 Posted 14/12/2011 at 13:30:58
23 Posted 14/12/2011 at 13:30:58
Peter, unless you actually read what the BU aims are, you would be best not posting such shite.
Jay Harris
25 Posted 14/12/2011 at 13:33:47
25 Posted 14/12/2011 at 13:33:47
Peter,
I knew Peter Johnson personally at the time, and I can tell you categorically, he was very sensitive to the fans' reaction.
That is one of the reasons he contrived the Joe Royle departure at the time because all the fans were moaning about the "Dogs of War" style of football.
He had already resolved the Tranmere/Everton share conflict by passing his Tranmere shares to someone else. The hamper business was in decline but his wealth was such that that was not a factor. The main reason he let go was because he received a number of death threats and felt it was not worth the aggravation.
I should also remind everyone that he was the last person to personally invest his own money in the club and built the Park End stand.
I would imagine if Kenwright had anything built, it would become the "Bill Kenwright" stand.
Your thoughts on Blue Union are also fundamentally misplaced as those guys deserve a medal for the time and effort they have put in to question what has been the worst administration in Everton's history.
KENWRIGHT MUST GO.
I knew Peter Johnson personally at the time, and I can tell you categorically, he was very sensitive to the fans' reaction.
That is one of the reasons he contrived the Joe Royle departure at the time because all the fans were moaning about the "Dogs of War" style of football.
He had already resolved the Tranmere/Everton share conflict by passing his Tranmere shares to someone else. The hamper business was in decline but his wealth was such that that was not a factor. The main reason he let go was because he received a number of death threats and felt it was not worth the aggravation.
I should also remind everyone that he was the last person to personally invest his own money in the club and built the Park End stand.
I would imagine if Kenwright had anything built, it would become the "Bill Kenwright" stand.
Your thoughts on Blue Union are also fundamentally misplaced as those guys deserve a medal for the time and effort they have put in to question what has been the worst administration in Everton's history.
KENWRIGHT MUST GO.
Michael Brien
26 Posted 14/12/2011 at 14:09:30
26 Posted 14/12/2011 at 14:09:30
Jay #23 Where you Johnson's PA by any chance? This sounds too much like a forum for Johnson apologists at the moment.
Jay Harris
27 Posted 14/12/2011 at 14:49:48
27 Posted 14/12/2011 at 14:49:48
Not at all, Michael. He also had his faults strangely similar to Kenwright.
He used to write things down literally on the back of a fag packet and placed a very heavy burden on his right-hand man, Cliff Finch, while not doing much himself.
However, despite his amateurish approach, I do feel he gets unfairly portrayed as the Black Knight when Kenwright has done nothing except run the club into the ground and create a major division of supporters and staff.
He used to write things down literally on the back of a fag packet and placed a very heavy burden on his right-hand man, Cliff Finch, while not doing much himself.
However, despite his amateurish approach, I do feel he gets unfairly portrayed as the Black Knight when Kenwright has done nothing except run the club into the ground and create a major division of supporters and staff.
Chris Verghoden
28 Posted 14/12/2011 at 15:13:59
28 Posted 14/12/2011 at 15:13:59
Oh for a DJ Spuddles moment in the Kenwright reign hey..Those little flavoured chips were the beginning of the end for PJ.
Colin Fitzpatrick
29 Posted 14/12/2011 at 17:54:00
29 Posted 14/12/2011 at 17:54:00
Michael #24,
I don?t think anybody is attempting to be a revisionist over the Johnson era; all I?ve seen written are the facts: he did invest his own money, through a rights issue that was underwritten by his trust; and he did instigate infrastructure redevelopment, in the form of the Park End, the lounges and the megastore... these are all facts. Of course Johnson was also responsible for some truly awful marketing decisions and the football team at the time was woeful... these were also facts.
We keep hearing people warning those who desire change, that they should be careful what they wish for; the clear implication being that our next owners could be worse than the present, that they could be like those at Blackburn, Portsmouth or Liverpool?s first American owners. But in my opinion we made that mistake last time; how many hand on heart, didn?t wish for Bill Kenwright to take over from the nasty kopite Johnson? Shouldn?t we learn from our mistakes?
The fact is Bill Kenwright?s True Blue Holdings should never have been allowed to take control as they secured the ownership by simply coming up with the asking price. They essentially only had enough money to buy the club and nothing else: no funding, no plan, nothing ? as can be seen here in this 2004 article by Mihir Bose -
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/2383344/Directors-wife-holds-the-purse-strings-at-Goodison.html
That was the mistake made last time; since then, the club, the business, has been ravaged... Look at the balance sheet, to see the debt and the asset disposal; look at the P&L, to see our limited ability to generate money; look at the stadium; and finally look at the smallest squad in the Premier League who between them can?t muster a shot on goal in 180 minutes. The obvious result of this mistake has been no success whatsoever on the pitch and we?re now potentially flirting with disaster once again.
In a bid to prevent history repeating itself, some fans are advocating a method that improves Everton?s ability to get the ownership conundrum right this time. It?s designed to weed out those who haven?t the resources to take the club forward; it involves using professionals with a proven track record, a company such as Inner Circle Sports perhaps.
It may of course result in the club being sold for a realistic value in place of a fantasy price born from necessity to please financial backers; unfortunately, when buying shares, you should read the small print.... some you win, some you lose. But what?s more important here: the future of the directors that have brought the club to its knees? Or the future of Everton FC?
I don?t think anybody is attempting to be a revisionist over the Johnson era; all I?ve seen written are the facts: he did invest his own money, through a rights issue that was underwritten by his trust; and he did instigate infrastructure redevelopment, in the form of the Park End, the lounges and the megastore... these are all facts. Of course Johnson was also responsible for some truly awful marketing decisions and the football team at the time was woeful... these were also facts.
We keep hearing people warning those who desire change, that they should be careful what they wish for; the clear implication being that our next owners could be worse than the present, that they could be like those at Blackburn, Portsmouth or Liverpool?s first American owners. But in my opinion we made that mistake last time; how many hand on heart, didn?t wish for Bill Kenwright to take over from the nasty kopite Johnson? Shouldn?t we learn from our mistakes?
The fact is Bill Kenwright?s True Blue Holdings should never have been allowed to take control as they secured the ownership by simply coming up with the asking price. They essentially only had enough money to buy the club and nothing else: no funding, no plan, nothing ? as can be seen here in this 2004 article by Mihir Bose -
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/2383344/Directors-wife-holds-the-purse-strings-at-Goodison.html
That was the mistake made last time; since then, the club, the business, has been ravaged... Look at the balance sheet, to see the debt and the asset disposal; look at the P&L, to see our limited ability to generate money; look at the stadium; and finally look at the smallest squad in the Premier League who between them can?t muster a shot on goal in 180 minutes. The obvious result of this mistake has been no success whatsoever on the pitch and we?re now potentially flirting with disaster once again.
In a bid to prevent history repeating itself, some fans are advocating a method that improves Everton?s ability to get the ownership conundrum right this time. It?s designed to weed out those who haven?t the resources to take the club forward; it involves using professionals with a proven track record, a company such as Inner Circle Sports perhaps.
It may of course result in the club being sold for a realistic value in place of a fantasy price born from necessity to please financial backers; unfortunately, when buying shares, you should read the small print.... some you win, some you lose. But what?s more important here: the future of the directors that have brought the club to its knees? Or the future of Everton FC?
Alan Williams
30 Posted 14/12/2011 at 17:46:37
30 Posted 14/12/2011 at 17:46:37
Tom/Colin, looks like you?re jockeying for position here and grabbing the middle ground so, whatever happens with our club, you will try and take some of the credit because you?re claiming areas that will naturally happen with or without your intervention.
So attendances are down and we are in recession... so that?s down to BU is it? How does that work? 0.8% is based on the turnout at the last protest against the match attendance. Also, because a website gets thousands of hits does that now mean they are signed up to the cause? I think not as I have checked it and read it and if I?m honest most of it is actually interesting its just written in hindsight too much for me which is obvious but does take away the issues at the time.
All our mistakes have one common denominator: the fact we have no cash resources; therefore we have had to take risky gambles which have failed... but, at the same time, they haven?t bankrupted the club. So, whilst not great, it's not as bad as it could be... and it's definitely time for change.
If I lived up North, I would certainly attend some of the public meetings, Tom. I posted on here before just because I don?t agree with your approach doesn?t mean I or others don?t understand why you feel you have to do what you do; we all want the same result after all.
My vote would be for Trust Everton if I had a choice at this point.
So attendances are down and we are in recession... so that?s down to BU is it? How does that work? 0.8% is based on the turnout at the last protest against the match attendance. Also, because a website gets thousands of hits does that now mean they are signed up to the cause? I think not as I have checked it and read it and if I?m honest most of it is actually interesting its just written in hindsight too much for me which is obvious but does take away the issues at the time.
All our mistakes have one common denominator: the fact we have no cash resources; therefore we have had to take risky gambles which have failed... but, at the same time, they haven?t bankrupted the club. So, whilst not great, it's not as bad as it could be... and it's definitely time for change.
If I lived up North, I would certainly attend some of the public meetings, Tom. I posted on here before just because I don?t agree with your approach doesn?t mean I or others don?t understand why you feel you have to do what you do; we all want the same result after all.
My vote would be for Trust Everton if I had a choice at this point.
Tom Hughes
31 Posted 14/12/2011 at 18:52:23
31 Posted 14/12/2011 at 18:52:23
Alan.... I do not profess to speak for BU or anyone else. I'm just offering my opinion on the current status quo.
I believe the crap footy, Moyes's demeanor and BU's existence are symptoms ? not causes. If you had the various constituent websites and threads you would've noticed the recurring theme of many contributors pledging to not return while BK remains. This predates the current form and is indeed reflected in the season ticket sales and initial gates........ and yes their numbers are in their thousands.
I believe the crap footy, Moyes's demeanor and BU's existence are symptoms ? not causes. If you had the various constituent websites and threads you would've noticed the recurring theme of many contributors pledging to not return while BK remains. This predates the current form and is indeed reflected in the season ticket sales and initial gates........ and yes their numbers are in their thousands.
Colin Fitzpatrick
32 Posted 14/12/2011 at 19:27:01
32 Posted 14/12/2011 at 19:27:01
Alan #28
I applaud you on your conservation efforts in addressing both myself and Tom in a single post but I don?t see why I have been included to be honest. You address none of my remarks and I?m certainly not hoping to lay claim to anything that may or may not happen at the club in the future, or indeed the past for that matter.
Essentially, Alan, we both agree with what is wrong at Everton, nearly agree on the causes, and I?m wholeheartedly in agreement with you over Trust Everton; let?s hope the guys manage to deliver where all other Premier League trusts have failed.
Where we completely differ is that, whilst you prefer to applaud the disingenuous and incompetent chairman, I prefer to stand in silent amazement; in the stadium at least, where I exercise my preference of supporting the manager and the team on the pitch ? unlike the board!!
You?re a director of a shipping container company, aren?t you? I hope your duties aren?t reliant upon your mathematical skills or your eyesight, as if you believe that there are 270 people on that last march I fear for you, I really do!
Have a good look; like I said earlier, it was a complete success, it achieved its objective:
http://youtu.be/RjHy17ETXNk
I applaud you on your conservation efforts in addressing both myself and Tom in a single post but I don?t see why I have been included to be honest. You address none of my remarks and I?m certainly not hoping to lay claim to anything that may or may not happen at the club in the future, or indeed the past for that matter.
Essentially, Alan, we both agree with what is wrong at Everton, nearly agree on the causes, and I?m wholeheartedly in agreement with you over Trust Everton; let?s hope the guys manage to deliver where all other Premier League trusts have failed.
Where we completely differ is that, whilst you prefer to applaud the disingenuous and incompetent chairman, I prefer to stand in silent amazement; in the stadium at least, where I exercise my preference of supporting the manager and the team on the pitch ? unlike the board!!
You?re a director of a shipping container company, aren?t you? I hope your duties aren?t reliant upon your mathematical skills or your eyesight, as if you believe that there are 270 people on that last march I fear for you, I really do!
Have a good look; like I said earlier, it was a complete success, it achieved its objective:
http://youtu.be/RjHy17ETXNk
Ryan Holroyd
34 Posted 14/12/2011 at 20:06:45
34 Posted 14/12/2011 at 20:06:45
Can anyone shed any light on recent rumours that QIA did Due Dilligence with the accountants Grant Thornton and at the last min, as the deal was going to be signed, our beloved great leader pulled the plug?
Matt Traynor
35 Posted 14/12/2011 at 19:26:17
35 Posted 14/12/2011 at 19:26:17
I seriously fail to understand how the BU should be expected to go out and find the solution, find potential buyers.
In the original interview with BK, BK told BU that they hadn't granted exclusivity to a particular broker, rather had engaged multiple agencies to seek investment / buyer / whatever. As well as Keith Harris, PCP were mentioned, as were Deutsche Bank, and Leon Angel. There are others.
Any interested party will be aware of the scale of the investment, and more importantly, the time-frame (particularly if they want any sort of return in the medium term).
Therefore there can be few reasons why so many approaches have yet to yield a single party getting beyond third base. The terms of the sale must be one.
In the original interview with BK, BK told BU that they hadn't granted exclusivity to a particular broker, rather had engaged multiple agencies to seek investment / buyer / whatever. As well as Keith Harris, PCP were mentioned, as were Deutsche Bank, and Leon Angel. There are others.
Any interested party will be aware of the scale of the investment, and more importantly, the time-frame (particularly if they want any sort of return in the medium term).
Therefore there can be few reasons why so many approaches have yet to yield a single party getting beyond third base. The terms of the sale must be one.
Colin Fitzpatrick
36 Posted 14/12/2011 at 21:11:03
36 Posted 14/12/2011 at 21:11:03
Matt,
When you read articles like this you begin to see the problem Everton are faced:
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard-sport/football/article-24021268-clubs-should-not-be-public-companies-insists-daniel-levy.do
When I say Everton I mean Bill Kenwright as his shares and Earl's probably require a return.
Spurs are being valued in the above article at £90m by their finance director which would suggest an enterprise value in the region of £150m.
Spurs or Everton? It would be a no-brainer.
When you read articles like this you begin to see the problem Everton are faced:
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard-sport/football/article-24021268-clubs-should-not-be-public-companies-insists-daniel-levy.do
When I say Everton I mean Bill Kenwright as his shares and Earl's probably require a return.
Spurs are being valued in the above article at £90m by their finance director which would suggest an enterprise value in the region of £150m.
Spurs or Everton? It would be a no-brainer.
Peter Fearon
37 Posted 14/12/2011 at 19:25:13
37 Posted 14/12/2011 at 19:25:13
Eric Myles #4: I did not say I like Johnson, nor did I actually like him. What I am saying is that it is futility incarnate to simply demand that chairmen "go" as if that was an answer.
We have seen what happens when clubs fall into the hands of people who see them merely as investments or playthings. That, actually, is how we became emboriled with Johnson.
The Blue Union has focused all its venom on Kenwright and he surely does have things to answer for but it seems to me they have sacrificed their credibility with their placid attitude to Moyes.
We have seen what happens when clubs fall into the hands of people who see them merely as investments or playthings. That, actually, is how we became emboriled with Johnson.
The Blue Union has focused all its venom on Kenwright and he surely does have things to answer for but it seems to me they have sacrificed their credibility with their placid attitude to Moyes.
Gavin Ramejkis
38 Posted 14/12/2011 at 21:49:13
38 Posted 14/12/2011 at 21:49:13
Peter #35 given your own use of the term "when clubs fall into the hands of people who see them merely as investments or playthings" what would you deem the current chairman if not using Everton as a vanity plaything given he borrowed heavily from a former friend to buy the club, has since burdened it with significant debt and not spent a single penny upon it and still has the bare faced temerity to be seeking "investment"?
It could well be that with new owners they might have a view of who they would like to see in the team management role beyond Moyes but it is not presently Moyes who has failed to fund one penny of speculative investment for return in the club or created any meaningful short, medium or long term business plan or strategy to increase match and non match day revenue streams. Instead the club has become burdened with spiralling debt and signed up to a series of debts it is struggling to service and this servicing can now only be maintained by selling the clubs remaining assets - it's first team squad.
Moyes is riddled with errors and many are calling for his head but that will not save the club from administration merely its current ability to compete with its peers which is affected far more by the lack of investment by the chairman and board.
It could well be that with new owners they might have a view of who they would like to see in the team management role beyond Moyes but it is not presently Moyes who has failed to fund one penny of speculative investment for return in the club or created any meaningful short, medium or long term business plan or strategy to increase match and non match day revenue streams. Instead the club has become burdened with spiralling debt and signed up to a series of debts it is struggling to service and this servicing can now only be maintained by selling the clubs remaining assets - it's first team squad.
Moyes is riddled with errors and many are calling for his head but that will not save the club from administration merely its current ability to compete with its peers which is affected far more by the lack of investment by the chairman and board.
Tom Hughes
39 Posted 14/12/2011 at 21:41:55
39 Posted 14/12/2011 at 21:41:55
Peter...I don't know why seperating the issues sacrifices credibility..... especially when you consider that when KEIOC formed as a single issue protest group Moyes was considered a success. An asset even. He was recognised by his peers and sports writers for his achievements despite the constraints inflicted by a totally ineffectual board. IMO it is not Moyes fault that the house of cards has finally collapsed whether he is complicit or not.....
Brian Lawlor
40 Posted 14/12/2011 at 22:12:46
40 Posted 14/12/2011 at 22:12:46
So Colin, if Alan's maths skills are so poor, why not help him out and indeed the rest of us by actually telling us how many were at YOUR march?
Sky Sports claimed around 250, the Echo said 'hundreds' and the most relevant, Merseyside Police estimated it at around 250 - 350. You'll find all of these estimates on the web. You consider that to be a sucessful number do you considering it was your 2nd march and followed lots of PR and gimmicks?
Sky Sports claimed around 250, the Echo said 'hundreds' and the most relevant, Merseyside Police estimated it at around 250 - 350. You'll find all of these estimates on the web. You consider that to be a sucessful number do you considering it was your 2nd march and followed lots of PR and gimmicks?
Gavin Ramejkis
41 Posted 14/12/2011 at 22:30:25
41 Posted 14/12/2011 at 22:30:25
Brian were you at Goodison Park that day and if so did you see the march for yourself filling most of Goodison Road from the Winslow down to Spellow Lane with some marchers still on the corner of Spellow Lane as Dave made his calls on the megaphone?
I've read a number of poster on here who have made claims to the numbers but very few have actually backed them up by claiming they were there and sticking to the nonsense such as Sharpy's "one man and his dog" bollocks.
Take a look at Google maps if you've never been down the road itself and take a conservative guess as to how many people it would take to fill that space. I'm not claiming it was a crush but it was most certainly a crowd that grew in size from when it began on the council land until it stopped outside the pub. Look at the many web-based pictures available, I am sure there are a few videos posted now too, look for yourself and then give your own view on figures rather than picking up second-hand tales.
I've read a number of poster on here who have made claims to the numbers but very few have actually backed them up by claiming they were there and sticking to the nonsense such as Sharpy's "one man and his dog" bollocks.
Take a look at Google maps if you've never been down the road itself and take a conservative guess as to how many people it would take to fill that space. I'm not claiming it was a crush but it was most certainly a crowd that grew in size from when it began on the council land until it stopped outside the pub. Look at the many web-based pictures available, I am sure there are a few videos posted now too, look for yourself and then give your own view on figures rather than picking up second-hand tales.
Colin Fitzpatrick
42 Posted 14/12/2011 at 22:42:22
42 Posted 14/12/2011 at 22:42:22
Brian,
It wasn't my march, read what I posted re numbers and finally watch the video I provided the link to.
Btw, Merseyside police didn't.
It wasn't my march, read what I posted re numbers and finally watch the video I provided the link to.
Btw, Merseyside police didn't.
Colin Fitzpatrick
43 Posted 14/12/2011 at 22:45:56
43 Posted 14/12/2011 at 22:45:56
Come on Tom, it?s literally as old as the hills, well about 2,500 years; divide and conquer? Sun Tzu, The Art of War????
What?s the point in treating the symptoms and not the cause? Well, I suppose it depends on your agenda, if you?re pro-Everton or if you regularly tug your forelock, not that you could do that mate!!!!
What?s the point in treating the symptoms and not the cause? Well, I suppose it depends on your agenda, if you?re pro-Everton or if you regularly tug your forelock, not that you could do that mate!!!!
Tom Hughes
44 Posted 14/12/2011 at 22:40:27
44 Posted 14/12/2011 at 22:40:27
Brian...... I don't remember seeing any turnstiles on the council field..... however, I do know the ones at GP have been clicking considerably less this year despite the biggest advertising campaign and gimmicks since "Get down to Goodison" was broadcast across the radio waves way back when.
I joined the march as it left the field, was I counted? I believe the Echo said that the march grew considerably as it left the field and I think the video evidence bares this out. I didn't even see the dog. All my mates were late arriving and joined on Spellow Lane..... I was nowhere near the back, yet I got nowhere near the Winslow before the march ground to a halt. Not bad for an hour before kick-off I would say.
Perhaps if the cameraman could've framed BK last wk we could've seen where we're at in your popularity stakes.
I joined the march as it left the field, was I counted? I believe the Echo said that the march grew considerably as it left the field and I think the video evidence bares this out. I didn't even see the dog. All my mates were late arriving and joined on Spellow Lane..... I was nowhere near the back, yet I got nowhere near the Winslow before the march ground to a halt. Not bad for an hour before kick-off I would say.
Perhaps if the cameraman could've framed BK last wk we could've seen where we're at in your popularity stakes.
Matt Traynor
45 Posted 14/12/2011 at 23:12:58
45 Posted 14/12/2011 at 23:12:58
Peter, #35, I would say that by having a single cause, the BU enhance their credibility. As I understand it, BU is an umbrella of 4 different "fan groups", unified under a single aim - to see investment in Everton, however that is achieved.
To start bringing team management into it would be to dilute the cause. Oh, and how about a new right back? Etc.
To start bringing team management into it would be to dilute the cause. Oh, and how about a new right back? Etc.
Lloyd Sloan
46 Posted 14/12/2011 at 23:35:14
46 Posted 14/12/2011 at 23:35:14
Just to clear one thing up Peter, I can state with 100% conviction and certainty, that on the night Ferguson was sold to Newcastle, Walter Smith had absolutely no idea about it. When he found out he stormed upstairs to the Boardroom to confront Johnson.
Thomas Williams
47 Posted 15/12/2011 at 00:10:02
47 Posted 15/12/2011 at 00:10:02
Lloyd, what most people don't know is the tax people were going to shut us down 3 days later unless we paid £7M back; consequently, we sold Duncan for the said amount... we had no option.
PJ should have come out by now and defended himself but, like Gary Speed, has too much dignity and respect. Sadly our current chairman has neither dignity nor respect and therein lies the problem.
Kenwright worked behind the scenes to out Johnson, he also did it to Paul Gregg. Both were prepared to put their own money into the club ? unlike the current lot.
PJ should have come out by now and defended himself but, like Gary Speed, has too much dignity and respect. Sadly our current chairman has neither dignity nor respect and therein lies the problem.
Kenwright worked behind the scenes to out Johnson, he also did it to Paul Gregg. Both were prepared to put their own money into the club ? unlike the current lot.
Eric Myles
48 Posted 15/12/2011 at 01:15:10
48 Posted 15/12/2011 at 01:15:10
Peter #35, if the objective is to find new owners explain how that will be acheived by attacking the manager?
Peter Fearon
49 Posted 15/12/2011 at 04:26:44
49 Posted 15/12/2011 at 04:26:44
Eric - It's not just not attacking the manager is it? The BU supports Moyes while demanding Kenwright's head. The reality is that Kenwright is not answerable to anyone except the shareholders, and that means him and two mates, in effect, which is the futility of BU's position.
If the players were playing to their full potential and abilities, it would be true that only serious new investment would cure the club's problems short and long term. But most people would agree that the players are not achieving their full potential, which suggests some progress can me made by giving them new leadership, separately and distinct from new investment.
Look, I would love to see a billionaire buy the club. I just don't think public protest will bring that about. I don't think the same is true of public displays of no confidence in the manager.
If the players were playing to their full potential and abilities, it would be true that only serious new investment would cure the club's problems short and long term. But most people would agree that the players are not achieving their full potential, which suggests some progress can me made by giving them new leadership, separately and distinct from new investment.
Look, I would love to see a billionaire buy the club. I just don't think public protest will bring that about. I don't think the same is true of public displays of no confidence in the manager.
Eric Myles
50 Posted 15/12/2011 at 05:06:46
50 Posted 15/12/2011 at 05:06:46
Peter, read what Matt said in #42.
Changing the manager will not alter the fact that we have some aging players who need replacement soon and there's only one way we are going to get replacements and that's with money.
Changing the manager will not alter the fact that we have some aging players who need replacement soon and there's only one way we are going to get replacements and that's with money.
Tom Hughes
51 Posted 15/12/2011 at 07:08:23
51 Posted 15/12/2011 at 07:08:23
Peter... you may be attempting to solve the problem by creating another one. Addressing a symptom instead of the root cause. NO other manager has earned as many points for so little outlay so who is going to do it now? Any new manager will have the same constraints. I believe that protest has ousted poor owners, and certainly influenced PJ's decision, however that is the ultimate objective.... with increased awareness being the initial one.
Alan Williams
52 Posted 15/12/2011 at 08:10:48
52 Posted 15/12/2011 at 08:10:48
Colin I base my stats on the Sunday papers figures as I wasn?t there on the march I was near by in a local establishment, they are correct on that basis. What worries me about your post is I have never ever stated what industry I?m in therefore I?m shocked as to you accuracy so its obvious to me that TW have passed on my email address and its not rocket science to check via companies house so I?m afraid I will have to stop posting for a while. I post on TW as an Evertonian, my job is not up for discussion, Editor please explain???????
Alan Clarke
53 Posted 15/12/2011 at 08:41:32
53 Posted 15/12/2011 at 08:41:32
Peter, let me get this straight, your whole issue with the BU is they're not campaigning to get rid of Moyes?
And despite overwhelming evidence presented by Colin and also that useful blog by the Swiss Rambler, your defence of Kenwright is that at least he's not Johnson?
Jesus wept, what an image of total dellusion you are.
And despite overwhelming evidence presented by Colin and also that useful blog by the Swiss Rambler, your defence of Kenwright is that at least he's not Johnson?
Jesus wept, what an image of total dellusion you are.
Eric Myles
54 Posted 15/12/2011 at 09:05:40
54 Posted 15/12/2011 at 09:05:40
Alan C, what he's actually saying is that Joihnson was better than Kenwright.
Peter Laing
55 Posted 15/12/2011 at 09:03:56
55 Posted 15/12/2011 at 09:03:56
Alan somebody who bases their figures on Sunday paper stats and passes comment whilst sitting in the comfort of a public house seriously needs a credibility check. I was in attendance at both Blue Union marches and can assure you that the figures bandied around by the local press who after all owe the club big time as we are lead to believe are way off the mark.
I have lost all respect for Graeme Sharp following his comments, again a paid up employee of the club given a prominent position in the local media on radio city. I am unashamed to say that I am one of the fans that Tom Hughes is referring to who has decided to stop attending games whilst Kenwright remains at the helm. The Wolves game at home was my last after 30 years plus of going to the match, I just dont have the stomach for it anymore.
I have lost all respect for Graeme Sharp following his comments, again a paid up employee of the club given a prominent position in the local media on radio city. I am unashamed to say that I am one of the fans that Tom Hughes is referring to who has decided to stop attending games whilst Kenwright remains at the helm. The Wolves game at home was my last after 30 years plus of going to the match, I just dont have the stomach for it anymore.
Ian Macdonald
56 Posted 15/12/2011 at 09:03:19
56 Posted 15/12/2011 at 09:03:19
Hmm... I wrote an article on Peter Johnson over his departure and the sale of the club as I was very close to it all. My main recollection was that PJ was not all bad but he had to sell and when we went to picket Park Foods just before his Xmas delivery, PJ responded with a meeting and a dramatic lower price to Bill, far from the price first quoted.
So fan pressure did count at the time, more than you think.
PJ in a nutshell did invest in the club but DJ Spuddles collapse (remember his Chocolate-flavoured chips etc idea?) brought his empire to its knees plus other financial negatives. He wanted to challenge Man Utd at the time... how far we have slipped away since then!
He bought us some great players but unfortunately they had to be sold later, did a share issue etc. He had a plan ,a vision not too our liking at the time with the stadium issue but the stadium never had bat lights and an Ikea-standard design. But, as previously said, he was badly advised when dealing with the fans plus being a red he never really got our full support.
Nah, Agent Johnson was not all bad in hindsight and realistic in his asking price in the end before all Rome burned around him with many club assets left to the new owners.I laugh at some of the things that went on in the end with PJ. I think I'll reminise and read that article I wrote over 11 years ago. It will be interesting to see and compare with our present state. I was a fool!
So fan pressure did count at the time, more than you think.
PJ in a nutshell did invest in the club but DJ Spuddles collapse (remember his Chocolate-flavoured chips etc idea?) brought his empire to its knees plus other financial negatives. He wanted to challenge Man Utd at the time... how far we have slipped away since then!
He bought us some great players but unfortunately they had to be sold later, did a share issue etc. He had a plan ,a vision not too our liking at the time with the stadium issue but the stadium never had bat lights and an Ikea-standard design. But, as previously said, he was badly advised when dealing with the fans plus being a red he never really got our full support.
Nah, Agent Johnson was not all bad in hindsight and realistic in his asking price in the end before all Rome burned around him with many club assets left to the new owners.I laugh at some of the things that went on in the end with PJ. I think I'll reminise and read that article I wrote over 11 years ago. It will be interesting to see and compare with our present state. I was a fool!
Alan Clarke
57 Posted 15/12/2011 at 10:12:15
57 Posted 15/12/2011 at 10:12:15
Eric, I see what you mean but Peter seems to be saying Johnson did a better job yet that is used as a defence of Kenwright.
Peter's obviously been drinking the same shit as his brother because the more I read it the more I can't see any logic to what he's saying.
Peter's obviously been drinking the same shit as his brother because the more I read it the more I can't see any logic to what he's saying.
Colin Fitzpatrick
58 Posted 15/12/2011 at 12:48:08
58 Posted 15/12/2011 at 12:48:08
Alan#49,
Stop flouncing about in mock outrage like some disgusted chinless wonder of Tunbridge Wells.
I can assure you, and I?m sure they?ll readily confirm, that neither Michael, Lyndon nor anyone else has given me your email address.
It?s strange that you happily post gossip about private and confidential meetings, which you have no business in doing, but are outraged with something that is posted which is not only innocuous but is in the public domain.
Sorry to disappoint you Alan but nobody wants to discuss the vagaries of shipping containers so don't worry it's definitely not up for discussion!!
Alan, you spectacularly fail to understand the power of the internet, along with many other things, and combining this with the little clues you have left over the years, you know, whilst lecturing mere football fans, who you clearly believe should know and remain firmly in their place and not question what you see as their betters in the boardroom, it?s a relatively simple exercise to discover who anyone is. I don?t think I need to be Alan Turing to crack your particular conundrum ;-) It's not as if it was some devious .hexadecimal cipher.
So your knowledge of the BU march was based on what you read in the papers? That makes it clear why you were so supportive of Kirkby, yet another of your spectacular fails; did you even bother to watch the video I posted the link to before typing your reply?
Alan, I find it strange that with your faux support of the BU, ?if I lived up North, I would certainly attend some of the public meetings?, and in the knowledge that the club is in the proverbial shite, I suppose it?s been in all the papers, that you prefered to sit on your arse in the alehouse when there was a march taking place that you know you were inevitably going criticise. Like I said, faux support. As if the numbers are the important issue; as if the numbers make the protestors wrong and the arse sitters right. Like I said Alan, faux support, you?re fooling nobody.
Oh and I think you owe the editors an apology for accusing them of breaching data protection.
Stop flouncing about in mock outrage like some disgusted chinless wonder of Tunbridge Wells.
I can assure you, and I?m sure they?ll readily confirm, that neither Michael, Lyndon nor anyone else has given me your email address.
It?s strange that you happily post gossip about private and confidential meetings, which you have no business in doing, but are outraged with something that is posted which is not only innocuous but is in the public domain.
Sorry to disappoint you Alan but nobody wants to discuss the vagaries of shipping containers so don't worry it's definitely not up for discussion!!
Alan, you spectacularly fail to understand the power of the internet, along with many other things, and combining this with the little clues you have left over the years, you know, whilst lecturing mere football fans, who you clearly believe should know and remain firmly in their place and not question what you see as their betters in the boardroom, it?s a relatively simple exercise to discover who anyone is. I don?t think I need to be Alan Turing to crack your particular conundrum ;-) It's not as if it was some devious .hexadecimal cipher.
So your knowledge of the BU march was based on what you read in the papers? That makes it clear why you were so supportive of Kirkby, yet another of your spectacular fails; did you even bother to watch the video I posted the link to before typing your reply?
Alan, I find it strange that with your faux support of the BU, ?if I lived up North, I would certainly attend some of the public meetings?, and in the knowledge that the club is in the proverbial shite, I suppose it?s been in all the papers, that you prefered to sit on your arse in the alehouse when there was a march taking place that you know you were inevitably going criticise. Like I said, faux support. As if the numbers are the important issue; as if the numbers make the protestors wrong and the arse sitters right. Like I said Alan, faux support, you?re fooling nobody.
Oh and I think you owe the editors an apology for accusing them of breaching data protection.
Colin Fitzpatrick
59 Posted 15/12/2011 at 13:09:07
59 Posted 15/12/2011 at 13:09:07
Peter #52
I'd reconsider not going mate, we're in this all together as call me Dave would say. Get yourself down to the dark house after the next game, there's still loads of genuine blues around, lots of people who do care about the club and our supporters.
I'll even buy you a pint!
I'd reconsider not going mate, we're in this all together as call me Dave would say. Get yourself down to the dark house after the next game, there's still loads of genuine blues around, lots of people who do care about the club and our supporters.
I'll even buy you a pint!
Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
60 Posted 15/12/2011 at 13:41:48
Editorial Team
60 Posted 15/12/2011 at 13:41:48
Alan. What Colin said (#55).
Apology?
Apology?
Peter Fearon
61 Posted 15/12/2011 at 14:14:09
61 Posted 15/12/2011 at 14:14:09
Ian #53 - I think that's right. I never suggested fan protest was not a factor, but it was a minimal factor given the financial imperatives facing Johnson. I cannot recall a single example of fan protest alone forcing the owner of a football club to sell to a billionaire. Incidentally some of the same people demanding Johnson should "go" - it never gets much more sophisticated than that - are now demanding the person he sold to (and who saved this club) should also "go" in favor of some unspecified billionaire.
Alan Williams
62 Posted 15/12/2011 at 14:33:56
62 Posted 15/12/2011 at 14:33:56
Colin, I will not apologise to the editor as I don?t believe your answer. The perception you have of me is completely wrong so use your Enigma machine to contact me and I?m more than happy to meet you face to face. I have never ever divulged any comments about private meetings; I merely suggested that one had taken place I never even mentioned the people?s names who took part. This is when I believe you started doing some checking or so I hope otherwise it makes you look an extremely paranoid individual. Your comments to Peter about meeting in the Dark House and meeting some genuine Blues fans that care for the club are very disappointing. We all love EFC nobody has a monopoly on those feelings and you need to understand that. I look forward to you contacting me and I will buy you a pint or two, I?m staying in Liverpool City Centre Friday and Saturday this weekend it would sincerely be nice to have a chat without the world commenting, over to you.
Peter Laing
63 Posted 15/12/2011 at 16:43:57
63 Posted 15/12/2011 at 16:43:57
Thanks Colin, much appreciated. It's a fine pub the darkhouse I often pop in after the game for the chat, banter and bowl of scouse. To be honest its one of the only pubs that I have been in where you can express your views etc as I did recently with a lad from work regarding issues such as the Blue Union (our opinions are different) and still remain convivial.
Colin Fitzpatrick
64 Posted 15/12/2011 at 18:10:18
64 Posted 15/12/2011 at 18:10:18
Dear me Alan, that was a short embargo! What happened to ?I will have to stop posting for a while.???? I do believe you?re disingenuous.... never did trust those Alsopians!
I think you?re having a bit of a Sherlock Holmes moment here with all your conspiracies, well more of a Dr, Watson moment in your case lol
Before accusing anyone of being paranoid I?d take a long hard look at what you?ve just written and consider how you?ve come across; subliminal messages to Peter and, best of all, me checking up on you after never mentioning something you never mentioned! I think if we put it to a vote on who?s paranoid I think I?d be pretty safe.
You take yourself far too seriously Alan, no offence but your opinions and edicts mean little to me, they mean as little as when Bill tells me about standing in the boys pen or being with Cavanagh when he ran on the pitch or, well no, we?ll be here all night.
Although there is an Enigma machine in Liverpool sadly I don?t have one and call me an impetuous old fool but I?d wager neither do you; you haven?t thought this through have you? If you?re suggesting that I contact you by email then the obvious flaw there is I don?t have your email address, you weren?t listening when I said nobody has given me your email address were you?
I?m more than happy to meet you Alan and have a few beers; I?ll be in the Belvedere at 18:00 tomorrow night. If you contact Michael or Lyndon he?ll let you have my email address, he?ll no doubt also provide you with TW?s data protection policy!!!!
Alternatively you can contact me via twitter, @fitzcolin.
On a positive note at least you've stopped putting COYB after every post - we have to be thankful for small mercies I suppose!
I think you?re having a bit of a Sherlock Holmes moment here with all your conspiracies, well more of a Dr, Watson moment in your case lol
Before accusing anyone of being paranoid I?d take a long hard look at what you?ve just written and consider how you?ve come across; subliminal messages to Peter and, best of all, me checking up on you after never mentioning something you never mentioned! I think if we put it to a vote on who?s paranoid I think I?d be pretty safe.
You take yourself far too seriously Alan, no offence but your opinions and edicts mean little to me, they mean as little as when Bill tells me about standing in the boys pen or being with Cavanagh when he ran on the pitch or, well no, we?ll be here all night.
Although there is an Enigma machine in Liverpool sadly I don?t have one and call me an impetuous old fool but I?d wager neither do you; you haven?t thought this through have you? If you?re suggesting that I contact you by email then the obvious flaw there is I don?t have your email address, you weren?t listening when I said nobody has given me your email address were you?
I?m more than happy to meet you Alan and have a few beers; I?ll be in the Belvedere at 18:00 tomorrow night. If you contact Michael or Lyndon he?ll let you have my email address, he?ll no doubt also provide you with TW?s data protection policy!!!!
Alternatively you can contact me via twitter, @fitzcolin.
On a positive note at least you've stopped putting COYB after every post - we have to be thankful for small mercies I suppose!
Colin Fitzpatrick
65 Posted 15/12/2011 at 18:25:33
65 Posted 15/12/2011 at 18:25:33
Peter #58,
Get yourself down there after the game, as the saying goes if you don't go don't blow! Get it off your chest but keep supporting the mighty blues, you know it makes sense.
The only problem with the Dark House is that George McKane is always in there, he's an argumentative bastard lol
Not like me of course.
Get yourself down there after the game, as the saying goes if you don't go don't blow! Get it off your chest but keep supporting the mighty blues, you know it makes sense.
The only problem with the Dark House is that George McKane is always in there, he's an argumentative bastard lol
Not like me of course.
Eric Myles
66 Posted 16/12/2011 at 01:27:47
66 Posted 16/12/2011 at 01:27:47
Peter #58 what has Kenwright done to make you, or anyone else, think he's saved this Club???
It sounds from your decription of Johnson that it was actually HIM that saved the Club!
"The myth surrounding Johnson?s departure also serves to conceal the many positive achievements of the Johnson era. Many fans either forget or simply were not around for the sense of utter paralysis which had gripped the club in the period before Johnson and which he relieved. There was significant investment during his spell in charge and of course, the crowning achievement was the FA Cup win."
Sounds to me like a lot more than BK has done.
It sounds from your decription of Johnson that it was actually HIM that saved the Club!
"The myth surrounding Johnson?s departure also serves to conceal the many positive achievements of the Johnson era. Many fans either forget or simply were not around for the sense of utter paralysis which had gripped the club in the period before Johnson and which he relieved. There was significant investment during his spell in charge and of course, the crowning achievement was the FA Cup win."
Sounds to me like a lot more than BK has done.
Alan Williams
67 Posted 16/12/2011 at 09:09:40
67 Posted 16/12/2011 at 09:09:40
Hi Colin, I don't do Twitter, Facebook or LinkedIn, sorry. Michael K has my email address and I'm happy for you to contact me direct. I asked for yours and he refused obviously considering my comments yesterday but since we have had communications I'm more than satisfied that TW didn't pass on these details.
I won't be in Liverpool until 9pm subject to snow; it's an open invitation to meet, my hotel is bang in the City Centre. COYB ... sorry, couldn't resist it.
I won't be in Liverpool until 9pm subject to snow; it's an open invitation to meet, my hotel is bang in the City Centre. COYB ... sorry, couldn't resist it.
Peter Fearon
68 Posted 16/12/2011 at 13:54:16
68 Posted 16/12/2011 at 13:54:16
Eric - It's a fact that Everton was in a terrible state when Johnson took over and his intervention was very important. As we all know in the subsequent years his own financial problems, his complex co-ownership issues, the failure of Walter Smith to move the club forward and so on and so on caused another crisis and Kenwright's intervention became just as important. This is all fact.
The problem with some of the positions taken up on management and ownership issues is that people get emotionally attached to a point of view and focus only on the facts that support that position. When people are calling for unidentified billionaires to step forward from the ether it usually goes hand in hand with an unjust campaign of vilification.
People recall Johnson's era as being entirely negative; it wasn't. Now some of those same people are trying to paint Kenwright's influence as entirely negative. It hasn't been.
The problem with some of the positions taken up on management and ownership issues is that people get emotionally attached to a point of view and focus only on the facts that support that position. When people are calling for unidentified billionaires to step forward from the ether it usually goes hand in hand with an unjust campaign of vilification.
People recall Johnson's era as being entirely negative; it wasn't. Now some of those same people are trying to paint Kenwright's influence as entirely negative. It hasn't been.
Simon Magner
69 Posted 16/12/2011 at 14:01:57
69 Posted 16/12/2011 at 14:01:57
It really disappoints me when i read articles like this that are totally way off the mark when it comes to The Blue Union.
Peter, you've embarrased yourself numerous times by writing inaccuracies. You've shown yourself to be completely ignorant of who and what the Blue Union are and what they advocate. I see you've replied to a number of people who have posted comments, but never once had the common courtesy to address any of your many inaccuracies that have been pointed out over and over by other contributors.
So, for everyones benefit, please clarify and explain further your following comment here:
"The situation today is very different. Blue Union wants Kenwright to leave but their main objection to him appears to be that neither he nor the other two biggest shareholders are Russian oligarchs, Middle Eastern tyrants or chief executives of American multinational sports conglomerates."
As well as here:
"Absent the arrival of a deep pockets buyer at Kenwright?s door, it?s difficult to understand what Blue Union wants him to do. Resign in favour of another board member as Johnson did? What good would that do? It would have no impact on the amount available for investment. I realise there is widespread belief that Kenwright isn?t trying hard enough to sell the club but there is no real evidence of that."
And as an aside, before you write another article about The Blue Union, it might be worth while checking out www.theblueunion.com beforehand...
Peter, you've embarrased yourself numerous times by writing inaccuracies. You've shown yourself to be completely ignorant of who and what the Blue Union are and what they advocate. I see you've replied to a number of people who have posted comments, but never once had the common courtesy to address any of your many inaccuracies that have been pointed out over and over by other contributors.
So, for everyones benefit, please clarify and explain further your following comment here:
"The situation today is very different. Blue Union wants Kenwright to leave but their main objection to him appears to be that neither he nor the other two biggest shareholders are Russian oligarchs, Middle Eastern tyrants or chief executives of American multinational sports conglomerates."
As well as here:
"Absent the arrival of a deep pockets buyer at Kenwright?s door, it?s difficult to understand what Blue Union wants him to do. Resign in favour of another board member as Johnson did? What good would that do? It would have no impact on the amount available for investment. I realise there is widespread belief that Kenwright isn?t trying hard enough to sell the club but there is no real evidence of that."
And as an aside, before you write another article about The Blue Union, it might be worth while checking out www.theblueunion.com beforehand...
Colin Fitzpatrick
70 Posted 16/12/2011 at 14:45:11
70 Posted 16/12/2011 at 14:45:11
Hello Alan,
Yes we have snow unfortunately, I won't be in town at 21:00, I was going there for a specific reason and was going to hang around and meet you for a beer.
Most people know my email address anyway at KEIOC, it's colin@keioc.net mail me anytime.
I knew you'd do that, lol, see you soon.
Yes we have snow unfortunately, I won't be in town at 21:00, I was going there for a specific reason and was going to hang around and meet you for a beer.
Most people know my email address anyway at KEIOC, it's colin@keioc.net mail me anytime.
I knew you'd do that, lol, see you soon.
Colin Fitzpatrick
71 Posted 16/12/2011 at 14:57:00
71 Posted 16/12/2011 at 14:57:00
Peter #65
The real pity in that last post of yours is that if you'd stopped typing at the end of the first paragraph I think most would have been in complete agreement with you.
Alas you didn't. I understand Diocalm Ultra is very effective; try taking the whole packet ;-)
The real pity in that last post of yours is that if you'd stopped typing at the end of the first paragraph I think most would have been in complete agreement with you.
Alas you didn't. I understand Diocalm Ultra is very effective; try taking the whole packet ;-)
Phillip Greenhow
72 Posted 16/12/2011 at 17:51:45
72 Posted 16/12/2011 at 17:51:45
Just read about an 'interested party' looking to buy Hearts FC.
They sound like Kenshite...
"We are in discussions with a few people who are looking at the situation....We will proceed with those who really understand and appreciate what the club is. It requires working capital. It requires investment....It is important for the club to find a way forward."
So, should Hearts FC find a buyer before us can we use this as a measure against the ineptitude of the Goodison board?
They sound like Kenshite...
"We are in discussions with a few people who are looking at the situation....We will proceed with those who really understand and appreciate what the club is. It requires working capital. It requires investment....It is important for the club to find a way forward."
So, should Hearts FC find a buyer before us can we use this as a measure against the ineptitude of the Goodison board?
Eric Myles
73 Posted 17/12/2011 at 12:50:20
73 Posted 17/12/2011 at 12:50:20
Peter #65, I was away in the sandpit for most of the 80s and 90s so didn't hear much about the Club in that pre-internet era so missed 'the Johnson years'.
Seems I also missed the time when Kenwright's influence wasn't entirely negative. Can you tell me what day it happened so I can look it up on the internet?
Seems I also missed the time when Kenwright's influence wasn't entirely negative. Can you tell me what day it happened so I can look it up on the internet?
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1 Posted 14/12/2011 at 06:58:33
At the right price we are a sound investment I feel. We turnover £80 million a year for gods sake! My house is worth about £250k ? I could search 24/7 for years trying to find a buyer who will pay £350k but it's a hopeless task.