Season 2011-12 Fan Articles
What's the worst that can happen?
By Dave Wilson :: 15/12/2011
100 Comments (»Last)
A record must have been broken this week on TW. I cant remember quite so many posts/articles calling for David Moyes to go.
I'll nail my particular colours to the mast from the outset: I'm in the "Moyes to stay" camp, but I can't deny these are worrying times... The question is: Who really is the best man to steer us through them?
I'm not asking who it is you want as our next manager, but I would like your thoughts on what improvements you would expect IF Everton were to change their manager.
Somebody said recently that if the job of managing Everton was to suddenly be put up for grabs there would be a queue of applicants stretching all the way back to Aberdeen... a slight exaggeration, but he was right of course; despite our current predicament, it's still one of the most coveted jobs in football.
So, is there a man out there who can do a better job than Moyes? Well, yes, almost certainly; but finding him will probably be like trying to pick the winner of the Ayr Gold Cup. Let's think about what we are looking for here.
David Moyes has consistently finished "best of the rest" so, if we are looking for somebody to improve on that, presumably we are looking for a guy who will put us in amongst the best. Can that be done without transfer funds? We are also looking for a guy who will get us playing a more attractive style of football; however, he won't be given money to spend, he would have to work with what we've got. Can that be done too?
Look at our players ? the footballers have been sold, most of what's left came cheap or free. They are not top notch, half of them are better without the ball than they are with it. I believe the tactics could be more positive and this current crop may surprise you from time to time, but they will not regularly have you on the edge of your seat.
I don't believe the next manager will be offered anywhere near the salary Moyes is on, so, rather than look for a superstar manager, we will be looking to the ranks of the up-and-coming ? that in itself creates a problem: History is littered with promising young managers moving to "bigger clubs" only to find the job is too big for them. Managing a footballing institution like Everton with a reported world-wide fan base of around a million people is a totally different ball game to "going for it" at a club whose fans are just happy to be here. The weight of expectation crushes most of them.
Everton are unique: we currently operate with a smaller transfer kitty than the likes of Crawley Town and Fleetwood, yet we are the fourth most successful club in the country; many of our fans grew up watching attractive, trophy-winning football; we were immensely proud of our reputation for playing "the right way", the biggest and the best...
While most fans are delighted with 5th, 6th or 7th, it doesn't come close to satisfying Evertonians. " 6th has become the new first" they will sneer. We may operate without transfer funds, but expectations are not lowered. If we hadn't seen such riches, we maybe could have lived with being poor.
The Everton job has proven to be too big for many a good man: Lee and Bingham failed; Mike Walker had taken Europe by storm with "little" Norwich, he was widely tipped as being the next England manager but the burden of managing Everton just about finished him as a manager; Walter Smith couldn't cope in a league where the opposition actually hit you back.
So where is Moyesie? Well, surely he has proved himself big enough for the job, he has done it ? all be it unspectacularly ? for the past decade. Premier League clubs receive £¾ million per place so, by regularly finishing top six, he has more than paid for himself.
I'm not going to insult anybody by telling them to "be careful what they wish for" but I would ask those who throw names like Lambert or Rodgers into the hat to consider how much different managing a club like Everton is to managing the clubs they are at now.
Forget tactics, formations and playing two up front, the first thing the next manager has to do is prove the job isn't too big for him.
The right guy is almost certainly out there, but for every success, there are a hundred failures. I would ask those calling for Moyes`s head: Do you feel ready to trust Uncle Bill to find THAT man?
Reader Comments (100)
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Gareth Humphreys
2 Posted 15/12/2011 at 13:46:42
2 Posted 15/12/2011 at 13:46:42
There is no one with any decent argument to get rid of the best manager we have had since 1987.
We haven't had a net spend on transfers since Fellaini signed. We haven't signed anyone since the Lescott money arrived.
Despite this - the richest league in the world - David Moyes has kept Everton ticking over.
Anyone who wants him gone, is quite frankly, stupid.
The only person I would want him replaced with is Mourinho and that aint going to happen is it?
We haven't had a net spend on transfers since Fellaini signed. We haven't signed anyone since the Lescott money arrived.
Despite this - the richest league in the world - David Moyes has kept Everton ticking over.
Anyone who wants him gone, is quite frankly, stupid.
The only person I would want him replaced with is Mourinho and that aint going to happen is it?
Jeremy Benson
3 Posted 15/12/2011 at 14:03:59
3 Posted 15/12/2011 at 14:03:59
Considering we supposedly have a relatively low wage cap, £67 million annual wage bill seems high.
I mean, thats the equivalent of 67 players on £20k per week, there or thereabouts....
I mean, thats the equivalent of 67 players on £20k per week, there or thereabouts....
Nick Entwistle
4 Posted 15/12/2011 at 13:58:19
4 Posted 15/12/2011 at 13:58:19
Well done Mike, we do spend more than Crawly on wages.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to put over.
Norwich, Wigan and Stoke don't have our wage bill, but neither do they have our league position season on season. Relegation battles more likely.
We have around the 8th to 10th highest wage bill, but without the ability to pick and choose in the transfer market, I think you're dismissing what effect this has on the club's ability.
And if there were less spent on wages to allow a transfer budget, imagine our best players replaced with the best Wigan and Stoke have to offer. Would you prefer that?
You make it sound like Moyes is bathing in gold.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to put over.
Norwich, Wigan and Stoke don't have our wage bill, but neither do they have our league position season on season. Relegation battles more likely.
We have around the 8th to 10th highest wage bill, but without the ability to pick and choose in the transfer market, I think you're dismissing what effect this has on the club's ability.
And if there were less spent on wages to allow a transfer budget, imagine our best players replaced with the best Wigan and Stoke have to offer. Would you prefer that?
You make it sound like Moyes is bathing in gold.
Nick Entwistle
5 Posted 15/12/2011 at 14:31:46
5 Posted 15/12/2011 at 14:31:46
And according to the annual report for 2010-11 we spend £58m on wages, not £67m.
John Barnes
6 Posted 15/12/2011 at 14:15:22
6 Posted 15/12/2011 at 14:15:22
Gareth,
I want Moyes gone. And I am not stupid. Ive been watching since the 1950s so Ive seen plenty of good and not so good players at Everton. Some good and some not so good managers too and I cant recall such desparate football played over such along period of time.Yes, Moyes has kept us ticking over but the players who have contributed to that have either gone or are now past it and for him not to act, or even react, to that shows a huge degree of unprofessionalism. I'll be honest in saying I dont know who we should get in to replace Moyes but was he your first pick when Smith was on the way out? There will be someone to follow Moyes, whenever that may be. Who would you ( realistically ) want to come should he kid us all and resign?
I want Moyes gone. And I am not stupid. Ive been watching since the 1950s so Ive seen plenty of good and not so good players at Everton. Some good and some not so good managers too and I cant recall such desparate football played over such along period of time.Yes, Moyes has kept us ticking over but the players who have contributed to that have either gone or are now past it and for him not to act, or even react, to that shows a huge degree of unprofessionalism. I'll be honest in saying I dont know who we should get in to replace Moyes but was he your first pick when Smith was on the way out? There will be someone to follow Moyes, whenever that may be. Who would you ( realistically ) want to come should he kid us all and resign?
Denis Richardson
7 Posted 15/12/2011 at 14:36:48
7 Posted 15/12/2011 at 14:36:48
Mike #1 - excellent post. Like a number of people, I believe the wage bill is a better guide as to where a club should be finishing in the league rather than the transfer funds spent. As mentioned above, we have one of the highest wage bills in the league so finishing in the top half should be a minumum and not seen as any great achievement.
Main reason I would like to see a change in manager is simply that I cannot see the current one being able to provide fresh movitation and encouragement to the current squad. Yes, I appreciate what he did in the early years but we are talking about now and not 4 years ago.
The squad seems to lack motivation and confidence, which is a managers job to provide. Add to that the negative tactics and bland (being vey kind here) style of football, I just feel a new manager with fresh ideas would provide a lift to the whole playing staff and hence club and supporters.
The pro moyes supporters tend to always say that the current tactics are a reflection of the lack of funds. I strongly disagree, we've been borign for a long long time. Even last season we still played 460 when we had a full compliment of fit strikers (against West Ham there were four of them sat on the bench! This when West Ham were playing shite, were low on confidence and second from bottom!). Simply put, we do have a squad with many talanted footballers that are just not being allowed to express themselves and play to their potential due to the stiflling tactics being employed. (E.g. note the vastly improved performances from Rodwell and Jagielka playing for England).
A confident player is a good player and a good player is a confident player - I dont see much confidence anywhere around GP at the moment and defeatist comments pre match just highlight the fact that the manager seems to have lost the fight.
Positivity, motivation and belief do not cost anything. If we could bring these backt o GP, I believe the current squad would play better football and be more successful.
Main reason I would like to see a change in manager is simply that I cannot see the current one being able to provide fresh movitation and encouragement to the current squad. Yes, I appreciate what he did in the early years but we are talking about now and not 4 years ago.
The squad seems to lack motivation and confidence, which is a managers job to provide. Add to that the negative tactics and bland (being vey kind here) style of football, I just feel a new manager with fresh ideas would provide a lift to the whole playing staff and hence club and supporters.
The pro moyes supporters tend to always say that the current tactics are a reflection of the lack of funds. I strongly disagree, we've been borign for a long long time. Even last season we still played 460 when we had a full compliment of fit strikers (against West Ham there were four of them sat on the bench! This when West Ham were playing shite, were low on confidence and second from bottom!). Simply put, we do have a squad with many talanted footballers that are just not being allowed to express themselves and play to their potential due to the stiflling tactics being employed. (E.g. note the vastly improved performances from Rodwell and Jagielka playing for England).
A confident player is a good player and a good player is a confident player - I dont see much confidence anywhere around GP at the moment and defeatist comments pre match just highlight the fact that the manager seems to have lost the fight.
Positivity, motivation and belief do not cost anything. If we could bring these backt o GP, I believe the current squad would play better football and be more successful.
Tony J Williams
8 Posted 15/12/2011 at 14:40:44
8 Posted 15/12/2011 at 14:40:44
"this is where the Moyes myth irritates me. It is his choice to have a large wage bill and nominal transfer kitty" Eh? I didn't know Moyes drew up the contracts aswell.
He manages the team, he doesn't deal in the financials, he tells the board who he wants to bring in or keep and then it's the money men who decide what happens. usually they just throw the list in the bin and look for loanees and freebies.
Mike, are you seriously suggesting that the board has reasonably backed Moyes/Everton?
"the money Moyes was given last season for his squad was £67m." - Once again, eh? Wages are not amongst the money given to the manager for the squad, it is overheads, it is given to the overpaid employees (Moyes included)
The fact is, as shown by the ironic evertontime.com of 2 years 3 months and 14 days, we have not bought a player yet have had to sell our better ones.
"Fund of £67m to spend" - I am actually speachless at that!
He manages the team, he doesn't deal in the financials, he tells the board who he wants to bring in or keep and then it's the money men who decide what happens. usually they just throw the list in the bin and look for loanees and freebies.
Mike, are you seriously suggesting that the board has reasonably backed Moyes/Everton?
"the money Moyes was given last season for his squad was £67m." - Once again, eh? Wages are not amongst the money given to the manager for the squad, it is overheads, it is given to the overpaid employees (Moyes included)
The fact is, as shown by the ironic evertontime.com of 2 years 3 months and 14 days, we have not bought a player yet have had to sell our better ones.
"Fund of £67m to spend" - I am actually speachless at that!
Jay Harris
9 Posted 15/12/2011 at 14:40:04
9 Posted 15/12/2011 at 14:40:04
Dave,
a very good post.
I think Moyes has done a great job with negative net spend but I feel that the toll of working with both hands behind his back on this pathetic Kenwright regime has turned him into a shadow of the man we used to know.
When people are talking about the wage bill they need to realise that also includes all the administrative staff and Elstone too so although the players are the highest proportion it is not 58 million a year going to the players.
It is well known that EFC are particularly poor payers so I cant understand where some posters are claiming that Moyes has a huge wage bill for the players.
Apart from this season where unless something dramatic happens soon we will not finish top half Moyes has to be given credit for achieving a much higher placing than the budget he has merits and with the income from that he has covered up the deficiencies of Kenwright and "Friends of Everton".
The football over that period has been average at best but to achieve so much with so little has to be acknowledged.
I think we can do much better than the "current" Moyes and believe some change in the coaching and playing staff to freshen things up is vital but it is far more important to get a new board for the continued long term survival and prosperity of our club.
a very good post.
I think Moyes has done a great job with negative net spend but I feel that the toll of working with both hands behind his back on this pathetic Kenwright regime has turned him into a shadow of the man we used to know.
When people are talking about the wage bill they need to realise that also includes all the administrative staff and Elstone too so although the players are the highest proportion it is not 58 million a year going to the players.
It is well known that EFC are particularly poor payers so I cant understand where some posters are claiming that Moyes has a huge wage bill for the players.
Apart from this season where unless something dramatic happens soon we will not finish top half Moyes has to be given credit for achieving a much higher placing than the budget he has merits and with the income from that he has covered up the deficiencies of Kenwright and "Friends of Everton".
The football over that period has been average at best but to achieve so much with so little has to be acknowledged.
I think we can do much better than the "current" Moyes and believe some change in the coaching and playing staff to freshen things up is vital but it is far more important to get a new board for the continued long term survival and prosperity of our club.
Sam Hoare
10 Posted 15/12/2011 at 15:26:22
10 Posted 15/12/2011 at 15:26:22
Any team that stays in the Premiership will have a larger wage bill as players in Premiership teams demand more wages. Its that simple.
Neil Pickering
11 Posted 15/12/2011 at 15:31:04
11 Posted 15/12/2011 at 15:31:04
Heard Roberto Martinex on Talksport this morning, they were talking to him about how he will approach the Chelsea game this weekend.
I found his response so refreshing, even though they are struggling he basically said what is the point in worrying too much about Chelsea and how they play, coz if you do that too much you just end up not using your strengths as a team, and will inevitably get beat.
He went on to say only goals win games so they might as well go out with a plan to try and create chances rather than drop off and hope to nick a goal.
Our manager used to think like this, now he is just stale, and is in the damage limitation game, which is filtering into the players. I know Wigan are struggling but i like Martinez. If Moyes goes then i wouldnt mind him as our new manager.
Marcus Kendall
12 Posted 15/12/2011 at 15:38:30
12 Posted 15/12/2011 at 15:38:30
Martinez is garbage!
James Stewart
13 Posted 15/12/2011 at 15:30:34
13 Posted 15/12/2011 at 15:30:34
IMPROVEMENTS I would like to see after sacking Moyes:
Tactical awareness! ie playing Man Utd away does not require the exact same tactics as Birmingham at home.
Use subs or a change of tactics progressively rather than just a reaction to going 3 nil down.
Pick players on form. Something that is clearly never done with the likes of Osman, Cahill Neville etc.
Attractive football. Or at least an attempt to play it. Instead of the negative defeatist shite we are served up under moyes.
Someone who can get to grips with us being a sell to buy club. Work the transfer market by selling players to generate funds.
Someone positive who can actually put a smile on Evertonians face's again instead of listening Moyes's dour post match we played well despite not having a shot on goal and losing rhetoric.
Someone with a plan! As currently we don't have one other than just stay up!
I would look abroad for a manager as they are lots of teams being managed far more intelligently than us on a shoestring.
Tactical awareness! ie playing Man Utd away does not require the exact same tactics as Birmingham at home.
Use subs or a change of tactics progressively rather than just a reaction to going 3 nil down.
Pick players on form. Something that is clearly never done with the likes of Osman, Cahill Neville etc.
Attractive football. Or at least an attempt to play it. Instead of the negative defeatist shite we are served up under moyes.
Someone who can get to grips with us being a sell to buy club. Work the transfer market by selling players to generate funds.
Someone positive who can actually put a smile on Evertonians face's again instead of listening Moyes's dour post match we played well despite not having a shot on goal and losing rhetoric.
Someone with a plan! As currently we don't have one other than just stay up!
I would look abroad for a manager as they are lots of teams being managed far more intelligently than us on a shoestring.
Antony Matthews
14 Posted 15/12/2011 at 15:36:47
14 Posted 15/12/2011 at 15:36:47
I think any team that pays Big Vic £20,000 a week is going to have a large wage bill! God knows what the medical bills must be too. Even ordinary players are paid handsomely these days. Personally i think the only player to grace the premiership and who earned his corn was Ronaldo. Saha was a good player at Man u but thats because of the system they play. Even some of our "ordinary players would look good there. Wes Brown looks a little boy lost at Sunderland . Different managers can get the best out of their players and for a while Moyes could too, but i fear the Moyes" Factor" has ended and we are knee deep in the stuff.
Tony J Williams
15 Posted 15/12/2011 at 15:48:11
15 Posted 15/12/2011 at 15:48:11
"Someone who can get to grips with us being a sell to buy club. Work the transfer market by selling players to generate funds" - What are you going on about? This is our biggest problem, selling our best players but not getting their transfer fees to buy replacements.
Also to sell a player, you have to have an offer. It amazes me that people seem to think just because we want rid of a player we will get an offer from another team.
The problem we face is if we are so desperate to sell a player, the other team, who eventually may put in an offer, knows this and they end up getting said player for a song, which kind of negates the whole selling to get funds idea.
Also to sell a player, you have to have an offer. It amazes me that people seem to think just because we want rid of a player we will get an offer from another team.
The problem we face is if we are so desperate to sell a player, the other team, who eventually may put in an offer, knows this and they end up getting said player for a song, which kind of negates the whole selling to get funds idea.
Jeremy Benson
16 Posted 15/12/2011 at 15:56:18
16 Posted 15/12/2011 at 15:56:18
Have just been doing some goggling. For last season, from the talksport site, our wage bill was £54 million, and in the premier league table of highest wage bills, that put us 8th.
Denis Richardson
17 Posted 15/12/2011 at 15:59:12
17 Posted 15/12/2011 at 15:59:12
Tony #14 - Arsenal offered I believe 15m for Jagielka in August. In fac they made 3 bids for him but Moyes rejected them all.
Assuming this money could/would have been reinvested in players. Could we not have offloaded Jags and brought in 2-3 younger/hungrier players? There were many on a free in the summer and the likes of Tiote and Cabaye at the barcodes cost about 4m. I think that is what is 'getting to grips with us being a selling club' comment is about.
Given our priority was a wide player and striker, would it not have made sense to sell a defender (not like we dont have enough of them) and bring in 2-3 players?
Assuming this money could/would have been reinvested in players. Could we not have offloaded Jags and brought in 2-3 younger/hungrier players? There were many on a free in the summer and the likes of Tiote and Cabaye at the barcodes cost about 4m. I think that is what is 'getting to grips with us being a selling club' comment is about.
Given our priority was a wide player and striker, would it not have made sense to sell a defender (not like we dont have enough of them) and bring in 2-3 players?
Tom Hughes
18 Posted 15/12/2011 at 15:40:39
18 Posted 15/12/2011 at 15:40:39
Mike #1...... you may have cracked it...... all BK has to do is increase everybody's wages till they are the best paid in the league and then according to you........ we should win the league!
The negative net spend over the last 10yrs is obviously irrelevant. Someone posted the other day that in the past 5yrs Stoke have spent 60 times more than us in net spend terms.
The negative net spend over the last 10yrs is obviously irrelevant. Someone posted the other day that in the past 5yrs Stoke have spent 60 times more than us in net spend terms.
Brian Harrison
19 Posted 15/12/2011 at 16:23:17
19 Posted 15/12/2011 at 16:23:17
People suggesting that we get to grips with being a selling club, that only ends with you running out of players that other clubs want to buy. Then we will go the way of Wimbledon who used this method of selling one player a year, till the inevitable happens.
Denis Byrne
20 Posted 15/12/2011 at 16:27:17
20 Posted 15/12/2011 at 16:27:17
I'm a fan of Moyes and what he has done at Everton over the last 10 years. However, this season he has exuded an aura of sterility, gloom and unforgivably for the head coach of an elite sports organisation, a profound absence of ambition. Sadly, this has permeated to the players and the fans and the club is suffering. It hurts to say, but it is unequivocably time for change. He looks like he knows this but is too proud to go and our chairman too weak to make him go. Its a deadly spiral.
Andrew Clare
21 Posted 15/12/2011 at 16:21:39
21 Posted 15/12/2011 at 16:21:39
James at 12#. You have summed it up nicely.
I especially agree with your last paragraph.
I would like to add that the Premier League is overrated and that there are far more tactically aware managers in
Europe who could get Everton playing successful exciting football with the budget that Moyes has.
I have said it before and I'll say it again. I just don't know how anybody can be happy with Moyes running -or is it ruining our team like this any more.
I especially agree with your last paragraph.
I would like to add that the Premier League is overrated and that there are far more tactically aware managers in
Europe who could get Everton playing successful exciting football with the budget that Moyes has.
I have said it before and I'll say it again. I just don't know how anybody can be happy with Moyes running -or is it ruining our team like this any more.
Ray Robinson
22 Posted 15/12/2011 at 16:24:24
22 Posted 15/12/2011 at 16:24:24
I've been a Moyes supporter in the past but I think that the time has come for a change. Yes, he has worked admirably on a limited budget (not always as resticted as some make out, mind you) and has undeniably got the best out of a set of honest, hardworking but limited- ability players.
However, as with everything in life, you have to change to survive and I feel that season on season, we are falling behind. Yes, we are consistently the "best of the rest" and that truly is as far as we can go without further investment - but I don't think that Moyes can sustain the "best of the rest" as he seems reluctant to adapt.
So yes, he has worked relative miracles and for that I am grateful - but you can't trade off the past forever. I think he has retrenched into a dour negative approach and it's sadly reflected in the transfers, team selections, tactics and the way we play.
The Moyes magic seems to be fading - a fresh talent may help us remain "best of the rest" because I don't think Moyes will any more.
However, as with everything in life, you have to change to survive and I feel that season on season, we are falling behind. Yes, we are consistently the "best of the rest" and that truly is as far as we can go without further investment - but I don't think that Moyes can sustain the "best of the rest" as he seems reluctant to adapt.
So yes, he has worked relative miracles and for that I am grateful - but you can't trade off the past forever. I think he has retrenched into a dour negative approach and it's sadly reflected in the transfers, team selections, tactics and the way we play.
The Moyes magic seems to be fading - a fresh talent may help us remain "best of the rest" because I don't think Moyes will any more.
Kevin Tully
23 Posted 15/12/2011 at 16:28:12
23 Posted 15/12/2011 at 16:28:12
I think a lot of luck can come into the equation with a new manger. They may just click with the players they inherit, and build from there. He may find some brilliant youth players as Wenger has over the years.
My choice would be to look abroad, there are Champions League teams who play good,expansive football, with managers we could easily afford. After all, the pro's say you are found out in this competition if you do not possess the tactical nous.
I think everyone agrees there is a staleness about the club.
It is time for a change from top to bottom.
My choice would be to look abroad, there are Champions League teams who play good,expansive football, with managers we could easily afford. After all, the pro's say you are found out in this competition if you do not possess the tactical nous.
I think everyone agrees there is a staleness about the club.
It is time for a change from top to bottom.
Ian Tunstead
24 Posted 15/12/2011 at 16:31:12
24 Posted 15/12/2011 at 16:31:12
Neil Moyes has learnt the hard way with time and experience. Reality will dawn on Martinez soon, hopefully before he gets relegated like so many other promising young managers.
Danny Broderick
25 Posted 15/12/2011 at 16:32:12
25 Posted 15/12/2011 at 16:32:12
Dave,
I think you make some good points in your article. Especially potential candidates that are touted to replace Moyes - the likes of Brendan Rogers,Paul Lambert... last year it was Owen Coyle and Holloway. All 4 of them have Mike Walker written all over them I'm afraid. Moyes would not be an easy act to follow. Everton is not an easy club to manage for a lot of the reasons you stated.
I personally think we need to give Moyes the benefit of the doubt for this season at least. He has shown in the past that he can turn around bad starts,and I am hoping he will manage it this time. I don't think he will,but for past achievements alone he deserves the opportunity.
That said,I think he needs to buck his ideas up,because if this was his 1st season in charge,I'm sure there would be a large amount of the fan base chanting for him to go. What we have been served up so far has been dross. Some of the tactics and substitutions have been schoolboy errors. But I think the bigger problem at Everton is the board.
The main focus has to be getting new owners. In the meantime,Moyesie should be given a chance to turn things around. If things don't turn out,I'd like to see an experienced manager take over,someone like Mark Hughes. He likes his teams to be well organised and hard working (like Moyes) but,having been a striker himself,I don't think we'd ever see a return of the dreaded 7-3-0 we have seen under Moyes.
It'll be interesting to see if Tottenham go for Moyes if Redknapp replaces Capello. This could well be the best solution for all parties...
I think you make some good points in your article. Especially potential candidates that are touted to replace Moyes - the likes of Brendan Rogers,Paul Lambert... last year it was Owen Coyle and Holloway. All 4 of them have Mike Walker written all over them I'm afraid. Moyes would not be an easy act to follow. Everton is not an easy club to manage for a lot of the reasons you stated.
I personally think we need to give Moyes the benefit of the doubt for this season at least. He has shown in the past that he can turn around bad starts,and I am hoping he will manage it this time. I don't think he will,but for past achievements alone he deserves the opportunity.
That said,I think he needs to buck his ideas up,because if this was his 1st season in charge,I'm sure there would be a large amount of the fan base chanting for him to go. What we have been served up so far has been dross. Some of the tactics and substitutions have been schoolboy errors. But I think the bigger problem at Everton is the board.
The main focus has to be getting new owners. In the meantime,Moyesie should be given a chance to turn things around. If things don't turn out,I'd like to see an experienced manager take over,someone like Mark Hughes. He likes his teams to be well organised and hard working (like Moyes) but,having been a striker himself,I don't think we'd ever see a return of the dreaded 7-3-0 we have seen under Moyes.
It'll be interesting to see if Tottenham go for Moyes if Redknapp replaces Capello. This could well be the best solution for all parties...
Trevor Lynes
26 Posted 15/12/2011 at 16:42:39
26 Posted 15/12/2011 at 16:42:39
The BOARD manage the club finances and THEY are the ones who a/ Let Gosling go for free..b/ Let Pienaar go for (excuse the pun) peanuts,c/ Let Arteta go without having a decent replacement d/ Allow a legion of players to go out on loan thereby taking away cover for injuries etc.
Where does the money go that has been earned by finishing in the top 8 consistently...None of this has anything to do with the manager and ANY decent manager wants a transfer fund each year to enable progress for the club.
We are at best treading water and to my mind a decline is imminent unless something is done to provide finances to STRENGTHEN the squad before the better players jump ship !!
Where does the money go that has been earned by finishing in the top 8 consistently...None of this has anything to do with the manager and ANY decent manager wants a transfer fund each year to enable progress for the club.
We are at best treading water and to my mind a decline is imminent unless something is done to provide finances to STRENGTHEN the squad before the better players jump ship !!
Andrew Fair
27 Posted 15/12/2011 at 16:49:42
27 Posted 15/12/2011 at 16:49:42
Neil #11 Martinez will take Wigan down. His approach is about as refreshing as a cigarette the morning after a huge drinking session!!!
Peter Laing
28 Posted 15/12/2011 at 16:55:06
28 Posted 15/12/2011 at 16:55:06
Approaching ten years in the job, no funds for transfers for the past 2 years with your best player's going out in the opposite direction to appease the banks, sitting on a nice salary in one of the safest jobs in football. David Moyes like Everton is stale, he is stagnating and there appears to be little hope in the immediate of this changing. If David Moyes is sacked or chooses to resign surely this will be the factor which shifts the groundswell and public opinion regarding the neccesity to remove Kenwright. The vast majority of supporters probably do not contribute to this site and I would say personally having to spoken to many who remain silent that although they remain apathetic regarding our current plight it will take a seismic event for them to revovlt.
Stephen Kenny
29 Posted 15/12/2011 at 15:56:59
29 Posted 15/12/2011 at 15:56:59
Dave,
I'm posting without reading any replies so if I repeat what anybody else has said I apologise.
I think when Moyes goes we will lose a manager who has a really good eye for a player. Anybody who disputes this is kidding themselves IMO. What I think is fair is that Moyes doesn't use the players he has to the fullest.
A few years ago we had players capable of playing great football, even then at times 'industrial' would have been the best way to describe it.
Looking at the players lost I would say only three were top quality at thier time of leaving. Lescott, who we still miss, Pienaar and Yakubu. Arteta stunk last season and brought nothing to the table. Anybody who is now crying about it retrospectively has a short memory or is a hypocrite. That these players weren't replaced is as much down to Moyes as the lack of money available.
If I have to accept the quality of player goes down but the quality of football goes up with any new manager then so be it. At the very least we may score 3 in a game more than once a season. We may also do well in the cups, something we should be targeting.
While we cannot compete for top players and never have, we can still attract good players on decent wages, higher than the majority. I'd like to see a manager who works the Bosman system well and improves quality that way.
Look at the current top sides. Ferguson came from Aberdeen, Wenger from Japan and Redknapp had never managed a big side, only Villas-boas had made a sideways move, although to much greater scrutiny over here.
I don't believe your assertion that most are crushed under the weight of expectation to be true. Some are and some aren't. If Moyes is as great as some think then surely 'Uncle Bill' is the perfect man to find his replacement, as he found him.
"While most fans are delighted with 5th, 6th or 7th, it doesn't come close to satisfying Evertonians. " 6th has become the new first" they will sneer."
Not really true that Dave. As you well know all but a few were unhappy with 5th. Most of them use TW. I certainly didn't hear anyone complaining inside the ground, not about league position etc.
In fact most suggested that while 5th was as good as can be expected we could have played better football and it's nothing to be celebrated at a club like ours. I agree with that while still giving Moyes the credit he deserves for getting there on a tight budget.
So what could the next fella do that would see me happy?
1) He could ensure that we are properly prepared for the season ahead, so that after 10-15 games we are looking up instead of down.
2) He can use the loans and Bosman system to help acquire players on a budget, something Moyes used to do especially well.
3) He can instigate a change in the style of football played so I can look forward to going the match and have something to sing about.
4) He can use his position to enhance the reputation of the football club, rather than putting us down constantly.
5) He will have the knack of getting on players good sides and pushing them to be better, instead of crushing thier confidence. This is in both actions and words.
I'm posting without reading any replies so if I repeat what anybody else has said I apologise.
I think when Moyes goes we will lose a manager who has a really good eye for a player. Anybody who disputes this is kidding themselves IMO. What I think is fair is that Moyes doesn't use the players he has to the fullest.
A few years ago we had players capable of playing great football, even then at times 'industrial' would have been the best way to describe it.
Looking at the players lost I would say only three were top quality at thier time of leaving. Lescott, who we still miss, Pienaar and Yakubu. Arteta stunk last season and brought nothing to the table. Anybody who is now crying about it retrospectively has a short memory or is a hypocrite. That these players weren't replaced is as much down to Moyes as the lack of money available.
If I have to accept the quality of player goes down but the quality of football goes up with any new manager then so be it. At the very least we may score 3 in a game more than once a season. We may also do well in the cups, something we should be targeting.
While we cannot compete for top players and never have, we can still attract good players on decent wages, higher than the majority. I'd like to see a manager who works the Bosman system well and improves quality that way.
Look at the current top sides. Ferguson came from Aberdeen, Wenger from Japan and Redknapp had never managed a big side, only Villas-boas had made a sideways move, although to much greater scrutiny over here.
I don't believe your assertion that most are crushed under the weight of expectation to be true. Some are and some aren't. If Moyes is as great as some think then surely 'Uncle Bill' is the perfect man to find his replacement, as he found him.
"While most fans are delighted with 5th, 6th or 7th, it doesn't come close to satisfying Evertonians. " 6th has become the new first" they will sneer."
Not really true that Dave. As you well know all but a few were unhappy with 5th. Most of them use TW. I certainly didn't hear anyone complaining inside the ground, not about league position etc.
In fact most suggested that while 5th was as good as can be expected we could have played better football and it's nothing to be celebrated at a club like ours. I agree with that while still giving Moyes the credit he deserves for getting there on a tight budget.
So what could the next fella do that would see me happy?
1) He could ensure that we are properly prepared for the season ahead, so that after 10-15 games we are looking up instead of down.
2) He can use the loans and Bosman system to help acquire players on a budget, something Moyes used to do especially well.
3) He can instigate a change in the style of football played so I can look forward to going the match and have something to sing about.
4) He can use his position to enhance the reputation of the football club, rather than putting us down constantly.
5) He will have the knack of getting on players good sides and pushing them to be better, instead of crushing thier confidence. This is in both actions and words.
James Flynn
30 Posted 15/12/2011 at 16:44:16
30 Posted 15/12/2011 at 16:44:16
Well, Dave, whoever it is, he'd need to be ready to get a shitload of grief if the team didn't show instant improvement. I see a TON of pressure on whomever follows Moyes if present financial situation remains.
Since the Club being sold is inevitable pretty soon here, I'm for keeping Moyes and let's see what he can do with more of a budget.
Since the Club being sold is inevitable pretty soon here, I'm for keeping Moyes and let's see what he can do with more of a budget.
Peter Warren
31 Posted 15/12/2011 at 17:16:20
31 Posted 15/12/2011 at 17:16:20
James, if I though the club was going to be sold soon I'd be right with you, but I just don't see that happening
James Flynn
32 Posted 15/12/2011 at 17:36:38
32 Posted 15/12/2011 at 17:36:38
Peter - I don't see what recourse current ownership has. The only assets left to sell to pay the banks are the players. There's nothing else left. Who's worth some money? Baines, Fella, Rodwell, Jags, Distin. Shit, Howard, too.
We can say there's like talent somewhere, sure. But can Moyes get them all replaced so quickly? I say no. And with what money anyway?
No money for x-fers. Assets (players) sold to pay the bills. Talent-wise, we become a Championship-level side. What would we be worth then? Certainly less than we're worth now.
That's why I think a sale is imminent and (fingers crossed) not so far away.
We can say there's like talent somewhere, sure. But can Moyes get them all replaced so quickly? I say no. And with what money anyway?
No money for x-fers. Assets (players) sold to pay the bills. Talent-wise, we become a Championship-level side. What would we be worth then? Certainly less than we're worth now.
That's why I think a sale is imminent and (fingers crossed) not so far away.
Yusuf Bobat
33 Posted 15/12/2011 at 18:00:00
33 Posted 15/12/2011 at 18:00:00
There has been a lot of talk on here about who should be the next Everton manager & a few names have been bounded about like Lambert & Rodgers to name a few but one man who I feel would be perfect for the role would be our very own Kevin Sheedy.
He seems to be doing a great job with the youth setup. I know some of you will say managing the youth team is different to the first team but Sheedy certainly knows what it means to be an Evertonian & how to play the Everton Way. I believe promoting from within might be a better option then bringing someone in from outside.
Jeremy Benson
34 Posted 15/12/2011 at 18:13:28
34 Posted 15/12/2011 at 18:13:28
Can we actually afford a new manager?
We'd have to pay off the old one, pay compensation for a new one....
We'd have to pay off the old one, pay compensation for a new one....
Robbie Muldoon
35 Posted 15/12/2011 at 18:12:34
35 Posted 15/12/2011 at 18:12:34
Dave Wilson, Mike Elbey #1, and Denis Richardson #7, great arguments I fail to see how any balanced individual can not accept all your points.
Change is needed, change is due.
Change is needed, change is due.
Jimmy Sørheim
36 Posted 15/12/2011 at 18:02:33
36 Posted 15/12/2011 at 18:02:33
While I agree on the promoting from within theme, I rank ex-players who now are managers even higher. Slaven Bilic is now my NR.1 as he has done just the thing Moyes needs to, clear out the old trash and bring in some youth in the team.
Slaven Bilic has done just that and with great sucess too, the results he has gotten with Croatia is really good, and him being an ex-evertonian is another good reason for Bill to choose him.
Also as two outsiders I have noticed Staale Solbakken from FC Køln, and Paul Lambert.
We do need a manager who has defensive knowledge, but we need a manager who has attacking knowledge as well. Moyes simply does not have that. Him signing Anichebe on a 25.000 a week contract as well as selling/giving away Yakubu for 1.25 is the two stupidest things I have ever seen from a Everton manager.
Moyes do need to go, BUT it has to fit with the timing of the new manager as well.
Slaven Bilic has done just that and with great sucess too, the results he has gotten with Croatia is really good, and him being an ex-evertonian is another good reason for Bill to choose him.
Also as two outsiders I have noticed Staale Solbakken from FC Køln, and Paul Lambert.
We do need a manager who has defensive knowledge, but we need a manager who has attacking knowledge as well. Moyes simply does not have that. Him signing Anichebe on a 25.000 a week contract as well as selling/giving away Yakubu for 1.25 is the two stupidest things I have ever seen from a Everton manager.
Moyes do need to go, BUT it has to fit with the timing of the new manager as well.
Andy Crooks
37 Posted 15/12/2011 at 18:31:04
37 Posted 15/12/2011 at 18:31:04
Dave, a good, balanced,restrained article. However, when Walter Smith went would Moyes have been on your radar? I accept your idea which you expressed before that ,firstly, you don't trust Kenwright ot find a replacement,and secondly,that Moyes will keep us safe until times get better.
It's a compelling argument but I really think we must take a chance. It would be astonishing if things were not stale at Goodison Park. Only success can sustain longevity and I think his time is up.Paul Lambert reminds me of a younger but more positive Moyes. I'd happily see him in the job and I believe we could get him. The compensation for Moyes is going to be a problem but he will get another job, he's earned enough from us and I wish he would resign with dignity while he still has some sort of legacy.
It's a compelling argument but I really think we must take a chance. It would be astonishing if things were not stale at Goodison Park. Only success can sustain longevity and I think his time is up.Paul Lambert reminds me of a younger but more positive Moyes. I'd happily see him in the job and I believe we could get him. The compensation for Moyes is going to be a problem but he will get another job, he's earned enough from us and I wish he would resign with dignity while he still has some sort of legacy.
Robbie Muldoon
38 Posted 15/12/2011 at 18:42:26
38 Posted 15/12/2011 at 18:42:26
Is it just me, or does anybody else think a foriegn manager would be a disaster at Everton?
Nick Entwistle
39 Posted 15/12/2011 at 18:55:21
39 Posted 15/12/2011 at 18:55:21
Andy, Moyes wouldn't have been on our radar but its not our job to know these things. All these current suggestions are just youngish managers who brought teams into the Premiership (not Matinez though) and are merely flavor of the month.
Johan Cruyff is unhappy though!
Johan Cruyff is unhappy though!
Phil Brown
40 Posted 15/12/2011 at 18:54:14
40 Posted 15/12/2011 at 18:54:14
Doesn't his contract run out at the end of the season? Just shake hands and say thanks but goodbye and hello to Martinez.
Ian Tunstead
41 Posted 15/12/2011 at 18:51:00
41 Posted 15/12/2011 at 18:51:00
Me as well Robbie. Who was the one who came over from Saville Spain to take charge of Spurs before Redknapp. He couldnt even speak English.
Gavin Ramejkis
42 Posted 15/12/2011 at 18:15:00
42 Posted 15/12/2011 at 18:15:00
to spin the wheel a little more a new owner might tell Moyes to sling his hook and have his own ideas, 65k a week should buy you something other than mid table mediocrity (a new owner should think so if they intend to speculate with money on the team)
Stephen Kenny
43 Posted 15/12/2011 at 20:08:54
43 Posted 15/12/2011 at 20:08:54
Yeah none of that foreign muck, eh Robbie stick to egg an chips!!!
How could a managers nationality have anything to do with how good he is at his job?
The fella Ian mentions, Juande Ramos couldn't speak English. Clearly this will cause problems but other than that???
I'm at a loss to even comprehend why foreign managers would be a disaster just for Everton?
At the time of Moyes appointment he was highly regarded within the game and was marked as one to watch. He came in and changed a lot about the club, no denying that. But to say he returned us to glory days or anything like that is false.
He has had money to spend up until a few years ago. That he had to generate the majority of this himself means nothing, most managers work under similar conditions.
Some may call this robbing Peter to pay Paul but unless your Chelsea or Man City that's how it goes, ask Wenger, Redknapp and Ferguson who have all had to sell thier best players time and again. Thier net spends aren't far away from Moyes over his tenure, Yet all have trophies, good football and great squads to show for it.
The fact that only the previous two years we have sold without re-investing is the two years performance has fallen of a cliff, regardless of league placings tells me he's not the genius some would have you believe. Just a decent manager who built a decent squad.
We could have done a lot worse but we can also do better.
How could a managers nationality have anything to do with how good he is at his job?
The fella Ian mentions, Juande Ramos couldn't speak English. Clearly this will cause problems but other than that???
I'm at a loss to even comprehend why foreign managers would be a disaster just for Everton?
At the time of Moyes appointment he was highly regarded within the game and was marked as one to watch. He came in and changed a lot about the club, no denying that. But to say he returned us to glory days or anything like that is false.
He has had money to spend up until a few years ago. That he had to generate the majority of this himself means nothing, most managers work under similar conditions.
Some may call this robbing Peter to pay Paul but unless your Chelsea or Man City that's how it goes, ask Wenger, Redknapp and Ferguson who have all had to sell thier best players time and again. Thier net spends aren't far away from Moyes over his tenure, Yet all have trophies, good football and great squads to show for it.
The fact that only the previous two years we have sold without re-investing is the two years performance has fallen of a cliff, regardless of league placings tells me he's not the genius some would have you believe. Just a decent manager who built a decent squad.
We could have done a lot worse but we can also do better.
Phil Brown
44 Posted 15/12/2011 at 20:37:29
44 Posted 15/12/2011 at 20:37:29
#42 And Wenger sells them at the top for a good price and replaces them with young up and coming players whilst still getting results.
Tony Marsh
45 Posted 15/12/2011 at 20:55:46
45 Posted 15/12/2011 at 20:55:46
I feel like tearing my hair out when I read some of the things some Evertonians think and actually say.How long does it take for some to grasp the fact that Moyes with or without money is a joke.Give Moyes £100.000.000 to spend and let him pay players a £1000k a week and it will improve him as a coach,tactician,manager.Its fucking nonesense.The cost of players and how much you pay them is irrelevant to the basic lack of modern day nous that Moyes and Round possess.
Spending money on better playesr only to play them in the pathetic systems Moyes adopts is slef defeating..So all this net spend bollocks doesnt matter Lionel Messi would end up destroyed if he ever played for a clown like Moyes.No matter who we sign the outcome would be the same,
.Moyes cant coach or teach center forwards fuck all and for that reason alone he should be long gone.
Spending money on better playesr only to play them in the pathetic systems Moyes adopts is slef defeating..So all this net spend bollocks doesnt matter Lionel Messi would end up destroyed if he ever played for a clown like Moyes.No matter who we sign the outcome would be the same,
.Moyes cant coach or teach center forwards fuck all and for that reason alone he should be long gone.
Paul Johnson
46 Posted 15/12/2011 at 20:56:24
46 Posted 15/12/2011 at 20:56:24
Tony J Williams you have got to be Moyes's love child. I bet you have ginger hair.
It is only ever someone else's fault - not enough money, the board don't back him, the fans are against him etc etc etc.
Tony whether the players are good or bad, have to left feet, the man who is there to select them, discuss tactics and style of play, oh and by the way drop them if they are playing shit is your old fella AKA Moyes. Not matter what you think he is accountable for the negative shite that is currently being served up.
Do us all a favour, when he kisses you goodnight have a word and see if he can play two up front this weekend........
It is only ever someone else's fault - not enough money, the board don't back him, the fans are against him etc etc etc.
Tony whether the players are good or bad, have to left feet, the man who is there to select them, discuss tactics and style of play, oh and by the way drop them if they are playing shit is your old fella AKA Moyes. Not matter what you think he is accountable for the negative shite that is currently being served up.
Do us all a favour, when he kisses you goodnight have a word and see if he can play two up front this weekend........
Graeme Hodgkinson
47 Posted 15/12/2011 at 21:13:38
47 Posted 15/12/2011 at 21:13:38
DOVOVAN'S BACK!!
Sean Patton
48 Posted 15/12/2011 at 21:14:58
48 Posted 15/12/2011 at 21:14:58
Gareth
There is no way in a million years that Moyes is the best manager since 1987, you could argue that Colin Harvey achieved just as much and Moyes is not in the same stratosphere as Joe Royle.
After a quick search I have just discovered that Frank Rijkaard is currently in charge of Saudi Arabia!
Surely we could be tempt him back into club management in the premiership.
There is no way in a million years that Moyes is the best manager since 1987, you could argue that Colin Harvey achieved just as much and Moyes is not in the same stratosphere as Joe Royle.
After a quick search I have just discovered that Frank Rijkaard is currently in charge of Saudi Arabia!
Surely we could be tempt him back into club management in the premiership.
John Ford
49 Posted 15/12/2011 at 21:28:25
49 Posted 15/12/2011 at 21:28:25
''Some may call this robbing Peter to pay Paul but unless your Chelsea or Man City that's how it goes, ask Wenger, Redknapp and Ferguson who have all had to sell thier best players time and again. Thier net spends aren't far away from Moyes over his tenure, Yet all have trophies, good football and great squads to show for it.''
Spare me.
I was just perusing the thread when I came across this. Complete nonsense. You could at least bother to check the facts before posting this . The data relating to this has been posted here several times.
The facts tell a completely different story. Moyes has had around one tenth of the highest spending teams. Not quite so for Utd but the single sale of Ronaldo squewed the figures, however they are still way ahead of us in net spend , likewise Wenger...but when he stoped spending....guess what?....he stopped winning trophies....his post 2006 spend is less than the previous five years, but he's won nothing since. As for Tottenham, there really is no comparison over the past three years. Its like they belong in a different financial stratosphere.
Spare me.
I was just perusing the thread when I came across this. Complete nonsense. You could at least bother to check the facts before posting this . The data relating to this has been posted here several times.
The facts tell a completely different story. Moyes has had around one tenth of the highest spending teams. Not quite so for Utd but the single sale of Ronaldo squewed the figures, however they are still way ahead of us in net spend , likewise Wenger...but when he stoped spending....guess what?....he stopped winning trophies....his post 2006 spend is less than the previous five years, but he's won nothing since. As for Tottenham, there really is no comparison over the past three years. Its like they belong in a different financial stratosphere.
Jay Harris
50 Posted 15/12/2011 at 21:58:54
50 Posted 15/12/2011 at 21:58:54
Can we please stop going on about Martinez.
If he has anything about him his team would not be relegation fodder every year.
Not many foreign managers have cut the mustard here.
Only Mourhino and Wenger spring to mind.
Jol, Di Matteo,Zola, Rames, Ranieri, Benitez etc could not be called successful when you compare their performance against what they had to spend.
The guy for me is Nigel Adkins and no other.
If he has anything about him his team would not be relegation fodder every year.
Not many foreign managers have cut the mustard here.
Only Mourhino and Wenger spring to mind.
Jol, Di Matteo,Zola, Rames, Ranieri, Benitez etc could not be called successful when you compare their performance against what they had to spend.
The guy for me is Nigel Adkins and no other.
Anthony Jones
51 Posted 15/12/2011 at 23:09:25
51 Posted 15/12/2011 at 23:09:25
50. Most of those managers are pretty strong. I wouI'd take Zola, Di Matteo, Ranieri or Jol over Gollum in a heartbeat.
Ryan Holroyd
52 Posted 15/12/2011 at 23:13:21
52 Posted 15/12/2011 at 23:13:21
Zola was sacked as West Ham manager, Di Matteo sacked at West Brom, Jol couldn't get Fulham out of the Europa League. Great credentials, them...
Mike Elbey
53 Posted 15/12/2011 at 22:52:36
53 Posted 15/12/2011 at 22:52:36
Tony (8),
To answer your 'queries'.
1. Moyes obviously has a say on players wages. Remember his comment of 2 years ago ' all our kitty this summer will be spent keeping our existing players'. Do you seriously think that Moyes has no idea of what can be spent on wages and how his transfer kitty or lack of it is inpacted by the size of that wage bill?
2. Regarding whether the board has backed Moyes. We have a wage bill that equates to a top 8 finish, that cannot be disputed. As such if the boards aspiration is to merely finish in the top 8 then yes they have backed him. If the aspiration is to finish higher which it should be then no they have not backed him. My point is simple, you cannot dismiss the level of the wages we pay when assessing Moyes' performance.
What I would say is that Moyes worked miracles in turning a worthless squad into one worth a lot of money. My gripe with Moyes is that over the past 4 years he has taken the decision to spend any money available on keeping players, he has been reluctant to trade and when he has he has got rid of all the attack minded players and kept all the defensive ones. Hence the atrocious football we are currently watching.
3. Do I seriously think Moyes has £67m to spend on his squad last year ? That is not exactly what I am saying, what I meant was he had £67m to spend on wages and transfer kitty and he decided to spend it all on wages. That is his choice ? he could have traded players and freshened up the squad and balanced the squad many times over the past few years and chose not to ? that was his choice.
Look, we all have our opinions. Mine is that Moyes has done a great job for the first 6-7 years but has performed poorly for the past 3 and we are now one of the most boring sides I have ever seen. If I think that as a passionate blue who has been a season ticket holder for over 20 years what do our foes think. If people think that is acceptable then fine, I don't. More importantly 5000 other didn't at the end of last season and I suspect a similar amount at the end of this one won't as well....
To answer your 'queries'.
1. Moyes obviously has a say on players wages. Remember his comment of 2 years ago ' all our kitty this summer will be spent keeping our existing players'. Do you seriously think that Moyes has no idea of what can be spent on wages and how his transfer kitty or lack of it is inpacted by the size of that wage bill?
2. Regarding whether the board has backed Moyes. We have a wage bill that equates to a top 8 finish, that cannot be disputed. As such if the boards aspiration is to merely finish in the top 8 then yes they have backed him. If the aspiration is to finish higher which it should be then no they have not backed him. My point is simple, you cannot dismiss the level of the wages we pay when assessing Moyes' performance.
What I would say is that Moyes worked miracles in turning a worthless squad into one worth a lot of money. My gripe with Moyes is that over the past 4 years he has taken the decision to spend any money available on keeping players, he has been reluctant to trade and when he has he has got rid of all the attack minded players and kept all the defensive ones. Hence the atrocious football we are currently watching.
3. Do I seriously think Moyes has £67m to spend on his squad last year ? That is not exactly what I am saying, what I meant was he had £67m to spend on wages and transfer kitty and he decided to spend it all on wages. That is his choice ? he could have traded players and freshened up the squad and balanced the squad many times over the past few years and chose not to ? that was his choice.
Look, we all have our opinions. Mine is that Moyes has done a great job for the first 6-7 years but has performed poorly for the past 3 and we are now one of the most boring sides I have ever seen. If I think that as a passionate blue who has been a season ticket holder for over 20 years what do our foes think. If people think that is acceptable then fine, I don't. More importantly 5000 other didn't at the end of last season and I suspect a similar amount at the end of this one won't as well....
Ryan Holroyd
54 Posted 15/12/2011 at 23:13:21
54 Posted 15/12/2011 at 23:13:21
Zola was sacked as West Ham manager, Di Matteo sacked at West Brom, jol couldn't get fulham out of the europa league. Great credentials them.
Sean McKenna
55 Posted 16/12/2011 at 00:44:43
55 Posted 16/12/2011 at 00:44:43
Some complete bullshit on here, really is. I ask you this has the Ginger One (Moyes) ever won a trophy in his manager's career? I mean a proper one ? not MLS crap?
Did he win anything at Preston? People are quick to slate Martinez, yet Martinez made Swansea the force they are today!! Ask Mr Rogers!! In Rodgers's own words, he said he didn't have to change a thing because Martinez had done such a great job!!
Yes, Wigan might get relegated... but if I had £100 million to give to a manager would it be Moyes or Martinez? Martinez everyday, at least I will enjoy his non-dictator football!!
Did he win anything at Preston? People are quick to slate Martinez, yet Martinez made Swansea the force they are today!! Ask Mr Rogers!! In Rodgers's own words, he said he didn't have to change a thing because Martinez had done such a great job!!
Yes, Wigan might get relegated... but if I had £100 million to give to a manager would it be Moyes or Martinez? Martinez everyday, at least I will enjoy his non-dictator football!!
Eric Myles
56 Posted 16/12/2011 at 02:08:57
56 Posted 16/12/2011 at 02:08:57
Maybe Moyes whinging about money is not directed at the fans as excuses but directed at the Board as a warning?
Eric Myles
57 Posted 16/12/2011 at 02:14:58
57 Posted 16/12/2011 at 02:14:58
James #13 "Someone who can get to grips with us being a sell to buy club. Work the transfer market by selling players to generate funds."
Problem with that is to get money we need to sell our better players (Baines, Fellaini, Jags, Rodwell for example) and who do we replace them with?
To get someone better we have to sell 2 to buy 1 (Felli and Rodwell for Torres anyone?), something that will reduce our already small squad and leave us vunerable in the case of injuries.
Or we sell 1 to buy 2 lower division players and take a gamble on 1 of them coming good and us being able to sell them on again to do the same. That leaves us with a large squad of average to below average players and maybe 1 good player who won't be here long.
So which alternative do you prefer? Personally I don't see either as a good way to operate.
Problem with that is to get money we need to sell our better players (Baines, Fellaini, Jags, Rodwell for example) and who do we replace them with?
To get someone better we have to sell 2 to buy 1 (Felli and Rodwell for Torres anyone?), something that will reduce our already small squad and leave us vunerable in the case of injuries.
Or we sell 1 to buy 2 lower division players and take a gamble on 1 of them coming good and us being able to sell them on again to do the same. That leaves us with a large squad of average to below average players and maybe 1 good player who won't be here long.
So which alternative do you prefer? Personally I don't see either as a good way to operate.
Peter Barry
58 Posted 16/12/2011 at 02:08:07
58 Posted 16/12/2011 at 02:08:07
I am very pleased to see Donovan coming back even if its just for the six or seven weeks he will be here. But thats just putting a sticking plaster on a gaping wound. Tactics Devoid Dour Davey may not even use Donovan in his most productive position or will kill his motivation by instilling his 'track back we can only hope for a draw lets all defend' mentality on him. I also think that as Donovan will not have the same quality of players around him as he had two years ago that we might see a different outcome. But as ever I live in hope but a hope which diminishes a little every time I watch the dross Tactics Devoid Dour Davey has served up EVERY single match this season.
Noel Lynam
59 Posted 16/12/2011 at 02:37:38
59 Posted 16/12/2011 at 02:37:38
Phil Brown @ 40,
You are clearly just jealous that Moyes achieved more at Preston than you did.
For anyone putting Paul Lambert forward as an exponent of free flowing, attacking football I urge you to go to Goodison this Saturday and watch 90 mins of hoofball up to Grant Holt and Steve Morrison.
You are clearly just jealous that Moyes achieved more at Preston than you did.
For anyone putting Paul Lambert forward as an exponent of free flowing, attacking football I urge you to go to Goodison this Saturday and watch 90 mins of hoofball up to Grant Holt and Steve Morrison.
Jason Lam
60 Posted 16/12/2011 at 02:44:29
60 Posted 16/12/2011 at 02:44:29
When's the last time we went for a non-British manager? No wonder we can't find any replacements. So what if there's no transfer funds? National team managers don't get to buy players anyway. We spend a fortune in the young academy don't we.
I want Luis Enrique as manager.
I want Luis Enrique as manager.
Dave Wilson
61 Posted 16/12/2011 at 05:00:00
61 Posted 16/12/2011 at 05:00:00
Interesting comments.
I was slightly surprised to see the discussion mainly center around the wages we pay.
Jeremy (#16) points out that as a club we paid £54 million quid wages last season, but to get a truer picture of our current wage bill you would need to subtract the wages that were being paid to Arteta and Yakubu (£7m?). Jeremy's figure would also include what was paid Vaughan, Pienaar, Beckford etc (another £5m?).
We have hit the buffers. It's no longer just the Jones's we can't keep up with, the whole street is outspending us.
I don't really care what the figures were 2/3 years ago, I only care about the here and now... and if like last summer we went up against Brighton for the next Peterborough striker, they would be able to blow us out of the water ? again.
And what's the point in comparing our dealings to those of Arsenal or Man Utd? When we have to sell the likes of Rooney and Arteta, they are the very clubs we have to sell to. The Everton manager may compete in the same league, but he operates in a different world.
Andy (#37) You're right, the article was a bit of a rehash of old points, but I felt the time was right to reiterate them. A lot of talk recently has been about who should go first: Moyes or Kenwright.
I think Moyes has (in the eyes of the football community at least) defied gravity.long enough to make life almost impossible for a would-be successor, especially given our ever-diminishing budget.
I`ve given up hope of seeing sexy football while Kenwright is at the helm; you need footballers to do that... and those who haven't been sold soon will be. It's about survival and respectability until he goes and I can think of no better man than Moyes to guarantee that.
Can you imagine a bright young coach (Kenwright's promises of re-signing Rooney still ringing in his ears) breezing into Finch Farm with his innovative new ideas, only to find that working with the likes of Neville, Hibbert, Coleman & Cahill is as good as it gets? God help him.
Moyes out before Kenwright? No... No... No.
I was slightly surprised to see the discussion mainly center around the wages we pay.
Jeremy (#16) points out that as a club we paid £54 million quid wages last season, but to get a truer picture of our current wage bill you would need to subtract the wages that were being paid to Arteta and Yakubu (£7m?). Jeremy's figure would also include what was paid Vaughan, Pienaar, Beckford etc (another £5m?).
We have hit the buffers. It's no longer just the Jones's we can't keep up with, the whole street is outspending us.
I don't really care what the figures were 2/3 years ago, I only care about the here and now... and if like last summer we went up against Brighton for the next Peterborough striker, they would be able to blow us out of the water ? again.
And what's the point in comparing our dealings to those of Arsenal or Man Utd? When we have to sell the likes of Rooney and Arteta, they are the very clubs we have to sell to. The Everton manager may compete in the same league, but he operates in a different world.
Andy (#37) You're right, the article was a bit of a rehash of old points, but I felt the time was right to reiterate them. A lot of talk recently has been about who should go first: Moyes or Kenwright.
I think Moyes has (in the eyes of the football community at least) defied gravity.long enough to make life almost impossible for a would-be successor, especially given our ever-diminishing budget.
I`ve given up hope of seeing sexy football while Kenwright is at the helm; you need footballers to do that... and those who haven't been sold soon will be. It's about survival and respectability until he goes and I can think of no better man than Moyes to guarantee that.
Can you imagine a bright young coach (Kenwright's promises of re-signing Rooney still ringing in his ears) breezing into Finch Farm with his innovative new ideas, only to find that working with the likes of Neville, Hibbert, Coleman & Cahill is as good as it gets? God help him.
Moyes out before Kenwright? No... No... No.
Peter Barry
62 Posted 16/12/2011 at 07:10:15
62 Posted 16/12/2011 at 07:10:15
The worst that can happen is Kenwright never sells and Tactics Devoid Dour Davey never resigns and we either go in to receivership or the Championship either or both of which are entirely possible with the DROSS that Tactics Devoid Dour Davey's teams are serving up at the moment.
Peter O'Connor
63 Posted 16/12/2011 at 08:03:05
63 Posted 16/12/2011 at 08:03:05
£58m or £67m on wages!
This may come as a surprise to some fans but Everton Football Club pays other employees as well as the players so you can't just share the wage bill amongst the players.
Sadly I think that Moyes has lost confidence in himself and is now even more scared to let the players venture past the half-way line without adequate defensive cover behind them. Defensive and negative tactics breed nervy football and worsens confidence.
We have to have players and a manager that believes in ourselves and that we are better than the opposition otherwise we may as well wave the white flag, which is what we've been doing in too many games for far too long.
Either Moyes out or he must change tactics and become more adventurous and let other teams worry about us instead of the other way around. Thanks for all you've done for us Mr Moyes but change or move on.
This may come as a surprise to some fans but Everton Football Club pays other employees as well as the players so you can't just share the wage bill amongst the players.
Sadly I think that Moyes has lost confidence in himself and is now even more scared to let the players venture past the half-way line without adequate defensive cover behind them. Defensive and negative tactics breed nervy football and worsens confidence.
We have to have players and a manager that believes in ourselves and that we are better than the opposition otherwise we may as well wave the white flag, which is what we've been doing in too many games for far too long.
Either Moyes out or he must change tactics and become more adventurous and let other teams worry about us instead of the other way around. Thanks for all you've done for us Mr Moyes but change or move on.
Tom Hughes
64 Posted 16/12/2011 at 08:45:46
64 Posted 16/12/2011 at 08:45:46
Its all Moyes fault.....?
Our fanbase has had its most exciting news in 2 seasons by securing a few weeks loan deal on a US international!
Further proof that this club has been run into the ground and is completely goosed...... yet its Moyes' fault?.
18months ago we were tipped by everyone to be the dark horses. Moyes had built a good side buying and selling and with zero investment from this board.... who were too busy paying off the loans that helped put them in place and sustain their non-existent business plan. All around us have built and planned for the future and we have been run like a corner shop with a brandnew supermarket being built over the road. Well, its all come home to roost...... yes it looks like Moyes may have lost heart. Who wouldn't, having had so many key players sold from his already relatively sparse squad? We have no idea what kind of footy Moyes would deliver if he had a decent budget.... he has only ever had relatively modest amounts occasionally, and nearly always last minute. Most of the time he has had little or nothing at all..... and most recently he's had less than nothing. The current state of affairs has been almost inevitable under this ownership, operating the way we are. It was spelt out loud and clear at the public inquiry.... and before if we are honest. None of this has been Moyes' doing! Are their better managers out there? Undoubtedly..... but I can't think of many (any) who have delivered as many ppoints for such little outlay. Attractive footy would be great but I don't think anyone has achieved it for our net spend and/or not been relegated.. some of the big spenders haven't even delivered great footy.
The real issue is how poorly the club has been run.... the shit footy is merely a symptom of the real deseased mode of operation that has finally and inevitably hit the wall..... but at least we got Donovan back!
Our fanbase has had its most exciting news in 2 seasons by securing a few weeks loan deal on a US international!
Further proof that this club has been run into the ground and is completely goosed...... yet its Moyes' fault?.
18months ago we were tipped by everyone to be the dark horses. Moyes had built a good side buying and selling and with zero investment from this board.... who were too busy paying off the loans that helped put them in place and sustain their non-existent business plan. All around us have built and planned for the future and we have been run like a corner shop with a brandnew supermarket being built over the road. Well, its all come home to roost...... yes it looks like Moyes may have lost heart. Who wouldn't, having had so many key players sold from his already relatively sparse squad? We have no idea what kind of footy Moyes would deliver if he had a decent budget.... he has only ever had relatively modest amounts occasionally, and nearly always last minute. Most of the time he has had little or nothing at all..... and most recently he's had less than nothing. The current state of affairs has been almost inevitable under this ownership, operating the way we are. It was spelt out loud and clear at the public inquiry.... and before if we are honest. None of this has been Moyes' doing! Are their better managers out there? Undoubtedly..... but I can't think of many (any) who have delivered as many ppoints for such little outlay. Attractive footy would be great but I don't think anyone has achieved it for our net spend and/or not been relegated.. some of the big spenders haven't even delivered great footy.
The real issue is how poorly the club has been run.... the shit footy is merely a symptom of the real deseased mode of operation that has finally and inevitably hit the wall..... but at least we got Donovan back!
Tom Winek
65 Posted 16/12/2011 at 09:46:41
65 Posted 16/12/2011 at 09:46:41
Moyes out! Any one of the 'much coveted on TW' managers (Di Matteo, Martinez, Holloway or Coyle) in please.
Tony J Williams
66 Posted 16/12/2011 at 09:45:18
66 Posted 16/12/2011 at 09:45:18
Paul 46, yeah that told me didn't it.
I bet your dads bigger than my dad too!!
Mike, 53. How does Moyes relaying the fact that all his kitty is going on keeping players equate to him having a say as to how much the players are paid? He doesn't do the negotiations.
"he could have traded players and freshened up the squad and balanced the squad many times over the past few years and chose not to ? that was his choice" - Which players would that be? The only genuine offer I can recall is the Jags one. The Yak one was a joke, the Neville one an even bigger joke.
No offer from Pienaar was publicly received, the Saha one had a smell of bullshit about it. Heitinga has been trying to peddle a deal for ages, as has Fellaini's dad.
I get the concept of selling to rebuid but when you have a squad of players that no-one really wants, you are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
I bet your dads bigger than my dad too!!
Mike, 53. How does Moyes relaying the fact that all his kitty is going on keeping players equate to him having a say as to how much the players are paid? He doesn't do the negotiations.
"he could have traded players and freshened up the squad and balanced the squad many times over the past few years and chose not to ? that was his choice" - Which players would that be? The only genuine offer I can recall is the Jags one. The Yak one was a joke, the Neville one an even bigger joke.
No offer from Pienaar was publicly received, the Saha one had a smell of bullshit about it. Heitinga has been trying to peddle a deal for ages, as has Fellaini's dad.
I get the concept of selling to rebuid but when you have a squad of players that no-one really wants, you are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
Eugene Ruane
67 Posted 16/12/2011 at 10:14:39
67 Posted 16/12/2011 at 10:14:39
Andrew Fair (27) - you say..
"Martinez will take Wigan down. His approach is about as refreshing as a cigarette the morning after a huge drinking session!!!"
So....VERY refreshing?
"Martinez will take Wigan down. His approach is about as refreshing as a cigarette the morning after a huge drinking session!!!"
So....VERY refreshing?
Andrew Fair
68 Posted 16/12/2011 at 10:47:10
68 Posted 16/12/2011 at 10:47:10
Eugene, not in my experience. Its the break of a man. However if I would have said " as refreshing as a beer the morning after a huge drinking session" then I would have been referring to Very!
Eugene Ruane
69 Posted 16/12/2011 at 10:51:34
69 Posted 16/12/2011 at 10:51:34
Strongly disagree Andrew - I can think of NOTHING more refreshing after a night on the ale than that first beautiful...Benson.
Remember kids, Cigarettes - they ARE big, they ARE clever and they DO make you look cool.
Don't be one of the nerds, smoke fags!
Remember kids, Cigarettes - they ARE big, they ARE clever and they DO make you look cool.
Don't be one of the nerds, smoke fags!
Stephen Kenny
70 Posted 16/12/2011 at 11:30:47
70 Posted 16/12/2011 at 11:30:47
John Ford #49
Post it then and we'll see how much more they have spent and then we can compare the difference in squads, style of play and trophies won!
I think it's you that hasn't checked the facts!
Post it then and we'll see how much more they have spent and then we can compare the difference in squads, style of play and trophies won!
I think it's you that hasn't checked the facts!
Stephen Kenny
71 Posted 16/12/2011 at 11:38:13
71 Posted 16/12/2011 at 11:38:13
"And what's the point in comparing our dealings to those of Arsenal or Man Utd? When we have to sell the likes of Rooney and Arteta, they are the very clubs we have to sell to. The Everton manager may compete in the same league, but he operates in a different world."
The point is this, all managers have to sell thier best players and balance the books from time to time. Ferguson had to sell Ronaldo and buy Valencia, Wenger has had to sell time and again and Redknapp has also had to sell his best players to balance the squad.
All of them have built great squads that play good football. None of them have been walking round with a face like a slapped arse for two years. Most managers use the transfer market to generate funds and build squads.
Moyes has refused to do this time and again. The club does not have a lot of money to spend. Yet he refuses to sell a 29yr old centre half for £12-15m?
Why?
Not because it's good for Everton, but because it's good for David Moyes! He likes the player and would sooner keep him for a couple of years, see his value drop but keep his squad intact and enhance his own reputation than risk a new signing.
How many players does Wenger allow to retire with him? Ferguson the same?
The point is this, all managers have to sell thier best players and balance the books from time to time. Ferguson had to sell Ronaldo and buy Valencia, Wenger has had to sell time and again and Redknapp has also had to sell his best players to balance the squad.
All of them have built great squads that play good football. None of them have been walking round with a face like a slapped arse for two years. Most managers use the transfer market to generate funds and build squads.
Moyes has refused to do this time and again. The club does not have a lot of money to spend. Yet he refuses to sell a 29yr old centre half for £12-15m?
Why?
Not because it's good for Everton, but because it's good for David Moyes! He likes the player and would sooner keep him for a couple of years, see his value drop but keep his squad intact and enhance his own reputation than risk a new signing.
How many players does Wenger allow to retire with him? Ferguson the same?
Andy Corrie
72 Posted 16/12/2011 at 12:37:58
72 Posted 16/12/2011 at 12:37:58
Lambert & Butler? -
wasn't it Benson & Hedges in Mike Bassett England Manager?
wasn't it Benson & Hedges in Mike Bassett England Manager?
Dave Wilson
73 Posted 16/12/2011 at 12:16:11
73 Posted 16/12/2011 at 12:16:11
Stephen
You are barking up the wrong tree here.
Arsenal didn't have to sell Nasri or Fabregas and Man Utd didn't have to sell Ronaldo ? ALL of these players wanted to go to even richer, bigger clubs. Not only did Man U and Arsenal NOT have to sell, they were able to offer these players more money to stay.
When you compare Arsenal's or Man Utd's finances to ours, you are comparing pumpkins to grapes. If either of these clubs were suddenly forced to operate on the shoestring we do, they would implode.
Arsenal offered £10 million for Jagielka ? well below the current Inflated rate for an English international ? if they had offered the £15 million you claim they did, Jagiela would have been playing against us last week, not for us.
Oh and by the way "How many players retire playing for Fergie or Wenger?" ? give me a break Stephen lad, I only get an hour for me dinner.
You are barking up the wrong tree here.
Arsenal didn't have to sell Nasri or Fabregas and Man Utd didn't have to sell Ronaldo ? ALL of these players wanted to go to even richer, bigger clubs. Not only did Man U and Arsenal NOT have to sell, they were able to offer these players more money to stay.
When you compare Arsenal's or Man Utd's finances to ours, you are comparing pumpkins to grapes. If either of these clubs were suddenly forced to operate on the shoestring we do, they would implode.
Arsenal offered £10 million for Jagielka ? well below the current Inflated rate for an English international ? if they had offered the £15 million you claim they did, Jagiela would have been playing against us last week, not for us.
Oh and by the way "How many players retire playing for Fergie or Wenger?" ? give me a break Stephen lad, I only get an hour for me dinner.
Tom Hughes
74 Posted 16/12/2011 at 13:06:30
74 Posted 16/12/2011 at 13:06:30
Stephen...... how many of those managers have to sell their best players and see nothing for it.... even when they've already got the smallest squad.? Answer is: none of them. Stoke have 60 times our net spend in the last 5yrs. Their turnover has been a fraction of ours. Moyes has operated on a relative shoestring......... and he's had nothing to spend in the last god knows how many Transfer windows...... LFC spent more in 1yr than Moyes has in 10...... and that's where we are. We can't compete with any of our peers for new signings
Stephen Kenny
75 Posted 16/12/2011 at 16:41:24
75 Posted 16/12/2011 at 16:41:24
Dave,
I don't remember Ferguson spending his 80m Ronaldo dosh, do you? I don't remember him crying about it and blaming it for them losing matches either, do you?
If Arsenal didn't have to sell Fabregas and Nasri why did they? Only a fool would suggest Wenger wanted to go into the new season with Arteta and Benayoun rather than these two. He hasn't spent most of the £52m either. Maybe they just haven't cashed the cheque?
Wener has effectively built them a ground with his transfer dealings. One of the few compliments I can still pay Moyes is that he is second only to Wenger in spotting a talent. Why won't he do the same? Because it's what best for Moyes reputation not Everton Football Club.
Moyes has not seen the money from this season's dealings and the Pienaar transfer thats all. Every other time players were sold he was allowed to re-invest. That's how he built his squad.
This we operate on a shoestring just isn't true. One of the most common shouts when we discuss who would take over etc, is look what (insert name of smaller sides manager here) has achieved compared to Moyes, completely forgetting that he is in a position to offer much higher wages than them, regardless of fee's.
If your happy not comparing our finances to Man Utd etc, fine, but don't moan when I ask why clubs like Fulham, Stoke, West Brom etc are all keeping pace with us even though our players budget is far and away from thiers.
Most managers in this division are not offered unlimited money and more importantly time. Moyes has had a bit of one and a lot of the other and delivered what?
I don't remember Ferguson spending his 80m Ronaldo dosh, do you? I don't remember him crying about it and blaming it for them losing matches either, do you?
If Arsenal didn't have to sell Fabregas and Nasri why did they? Only a fool would suggest Wenger wanted to go into the new season with Arteta and Benayoun rather than these two. He hasn't spent most of the £52m either. Maybe they just haven't cashed the cheque?
Wener has effectively built them a ground with his transfer dealings. One of the few compliments I can still pay Moyes is that he is second only to Wenger in spotting a talent. Why won't he do the same? Because it's what best for Moyes reputation not Everton Football Club.
Moyes has not seen the money from this season's dealings and the Pienaar transfer thats all. Every other time players were sold he was allowed to re-invest. That's how he built his squad.
This we operate on a shoestring just isn't true. One of the most common shouts when we discuss who would take over etc, is look what (insert name of smaller sides manager here) has achieved compared to Moyes, completely forgetting that he is in a position to offer much higher wages than them, regardless of fee's.
If your happy not comparing our finances to Man Utd etc, fine, but don't moan when I ask why clubs like Fulham, Stoke, West Brom etc are all keeping pace with us even though our players budget is far and away from thiers.
Most managers in this division are not offered unlimited money and more importantly time. Moyes has had a bit of one and a lot of the other and delivered what?
Matthew Lovekin
76 Posted 16/12/2011 at 17:11:15
76 Posted 16/12/2011 at 17:11:15
I think that Moyes is a good manager.
However, I also think that he has hit his peak at Everton, i.e. top 6. I don't see Moyes being tactically good enough to compete with the likes of Mourinho, Ferguson and Guardiola regularly in the CL.
I alos think that Moyes has become stale and probably dispondent with the lack of money at Everton.
A parting of the waves is probably best for all concerned.
However, I also think that he has hit his peak at Everton, i.e. top 6. I don't see Moyes being tactically good enough to compete with the likes of Mourinho, Ferguson and Guardiola regularly in the CL.
I alos think that Moyes has become stale and probably dispondent with the lack of money at Everton.
A parting of the waves is probably best for all concerned.
Brian Denton
77 Posted 16/12/2011 at 17:14:02
77 Posted 16/12/2011 at 17:14:02
'A parting of the waves' ? Moyes is surely the Messiah. Either that or a very naughty boy.
Tony J Williams
78 Posted 16/12/2011 at 17:12:16
78 Posted 16/12/2011 at 17:12:16
In the last two seasons Fergie has spend £80m on new players.
Some has been made back on sales.
This season Wenger has spent over £50m on players.
We made £14m by selling our best player and only striker to get double figures.
Where is the comparison in that?
Some has been made back on sales.
This season Wenger has spent over £50m on players.
We made £14m by selling our best player and only striker to get double figures.
Where is the comparison in that?
Stephen Kenny
79 Posted 16/12/2011 at 17:27:10
79 Posted 16/12/2011 at 17:27:10
In the past two years how much has Fergie brought in through players sales?
Wenger the same?
SELL TO BUY!!!!
Wenger the same?
SELL TO BUY!!!!
Matthew Lovekin
80 Posted 16/12/2011 at 17:34:06
80 Posted 16/12/2011 at 17:34:06
I think the way forward is to appoint within.
Firstly, because this will save us a shed load of money in compensation and a lot less wages!
Secondly, depsite being a massive club, most managers know we don't have a pot to pee in. Therefore, we are not an attractive club to manage.
There is no harm in appointing an up and coming manager that knows how the club works. Look at Barca appointing Guardiola for his first managerial job.
I'm not so keen on Neville as he will probably be another defensive minded coach and definately too soon for Big Dunc. Don't think Alan Stubbs has enough about him and ditto the defence situation.
Kevin Sheedy could be a good shout.
Or would Evertonians rather stay on this slow path to boredom and ultimate failure with relegation?
Firstly, because this will save us a shed load of money in compensation and a lot less wages!
Secondly, depsite being a massive club, most managers know we don't have a pot to pee in. Therefore, we are not an attractive club to manage.
There is no harm in appointing an up and coming manager that knows how the club works. Look at Barca appointing Guardiola for his first managerial job.
I'm not so keen on Neville as he will probably be another defensive minded coach and definately too soon for Big Dunc. Don't think Alan Stubbs has enough about him and ditto the defence situation.
Kevin Sheedy could be a good shout.
Or would Evertonians rather stay on this slow path to boredom and ultimate failure with relegation?
Phillip Greenhow
81 Posted 16/12/2011 at 18:01:12
81 Posted 16/12/2011 at 18:01:12
Just read about an 'interested party' looking to buy Hearts FC.
They sound like Kenshite...
"We are in discussions with a few people who are looking at the situation....We will proceed with those who really understand and appreciate what the club is. It requires working capital. It requires investment....It is important for the club to find a way forward."
So, should Hearts FC find a buyer before us can we use this as a measure against the ineptitude of the Goodison board?
They sound like Kenshite...
"We are in discussions with a few people who are looking at the situation....We will proceed with those who really understand and appreciate what the club is. It requires working capital. It requires investment....It is important for the club to find a way forward."
So, should Hearts FC find a buyer before us can we use this as a measure against the ineptitude of the Goodison board?
Stephen Kenny
82 Posted 16/12/2011 at 17:58:41
82 Posted 16/12/2011 at 17:58:41
Funnily enough Neville makes a point of talking up the offensive side of the game quite often. He's not a fan of all back for corners either!!!
Tom Hughes
83 Posted 16/12/2011 at 20:00:10
83 Posted 16/12/2011 at 20:00:10
Stephen,
Our club has been run into the ground and now sells to survive. We have no choice but to sell any saleable asset. Man Utd and Arsenal (the two teams you feel fit to compare us with) do not! In fact, they buy our best players with effortless ease. We can barely fund loanies nevermind new players, and certainly nothing of the required quality.... yet this is Moyes fault?
Arsenal built their new stadium, they had a plan and delivered. Their chairman said at the time of Kings Dock they would've killed for that opportunity. Similarly they were offered several out of town cheaper sites to build their new stadium, but took on the expensive and problematic option to stay local and preserve as much as possible........ see any other glaring comparisons and missed opportunities that point to the real reasons for our club's decline?
Our club has been run into the ground and now sells to survive. We have no choice but to sell any saleable asset. Man Utd and Arsenal (the two teams you feel fit to compare us with) do not! In fact, they buy our best players with effortless ease. We can barely fund loanies nevermind new players, and certainly nothing of the required quality.... yet this is Moyes fault?
Arsenal built their new stadium, they had a plan and delivered. Their chairman said at the time of Kings Dock they would've killed for that opportunity. Similarly they were offered several out of town cheaper sites to build their new stadium, but took on the expensive and problematic option to stay local and preserve as much as possible........ see any other glaring comparisons and missed opportunities that point to the real reasons for our club's decline?
Stephen Kenny
84 Posted 16/12/2011 at 20:43:22
84 Posted 16/12/2011 at 20:43:22
Tom
I'm more than aware of how many things we have missed off the pitch, but Dave himself said the assets were all on the pitch.
I'm not suggesting that we have competed with Man Utd and Arsenal. What I am suggesting is that ALL managers have to work the transfer market at some point. Most don't whinge about it in every interview and use it in every interview as an excuse for defeat
He's the exact opposite of the man who walked in ten years ago
I'm more than aware of how many things we have missed off the pitch, but Dave himself said the assets were all on the pitch.
I'm not suggesting that we have competed with Man Utd and Arsenal. What I am suggesting is that ALL managers have to work the transfer market at some point. Most don't whinge about it in every interview and use it in every interview as an excuse for defeat
He's the exact opposite of the man who walked in ten years ago
Dave Wilson
85 Posted 16/12/2011 at 21:02:27
85 Posted 16/12/2011 at 21:02:27
"Wenger has practically built them a ground with his transfer dealings" ? Stephen, the Emirates cost nearly £500 million! It was built ? as Tom says ? by a forward-thinking board with a plan. Having 70-odd thousand on a waiting list helped of course, it gave the board the confidence to secure the loan of about £300m they needed. They had recovered £100m for naming rights before a ball was even kicked there.
The stadium is still being paid for ? by the fans, of course ? season tickets can cost as much as £5 grand.
Arsenal's wage bill was around £124m last season. Man U`s was £132m... and rising. Ours was £54m and dropping like a stone.
As for Wenger and Fergie not whining ? that was a joke, right?
Otherwise, we must have imagined Wenger's incessant bleating this summer about City taking Nasri from him, not to mention Fergie screaming the house down when Madrid came and took Ronaldo.
What was it he said? "I wouldn't sell that crowd a virus." ... he sold them Ronaldo though.
The stadium is still being paid for ? by the fans, of course ? season tickets can cost as much as £5 grand.
Arsenal's wage bill was around £124m last season. Man U`s was £132m... and rising. Ours was £54m and dropping like a stone.
As for Wenger and Fergie not whining ? that was a joke, right?
Otherwise, we must have imagined Wenger's incessant bleating this summer about City taking Nasri from him, not to mention Fergie screaming the house down when Madrid came and took Ronaldo.
What was it he said? "I wouldn't sell that crowd a virus." ... he sold them Ronaldo though.
Tom Hughes
86 Posted 16/12/2011 at 21:04:25
86 Posted 16/12/2011 at 21:04:25
How many have had to sell not to improve, but just to keep the club afloat? How many have had to build gradually over several years, with no additional injection other than that gained via sales of their better players? How many have then received nothing back, despite the loss of the quality that they have brought in and nurtured.... with all the cash going instead to pay for the owner's failure to do their part in maximising revenues, securing investment and generally managing the club?
I'd say none of the other managers have operated in the same circumstances, and that therefore he would be justified in bemoaning his lack of funds..... let's face it, it's took him long enough to mention it.
I'd say none of the other managers have operated in the same circumstances, and that therefore he would be justified in bemoaning his lack of funds..... let's face it, it's took him long enough to mention it.
Stephen Kenny
87 Posted 16/12/2011 at 22:02:18
87 Posted 16/12/2011 at 22:02:18
Tom
Both Fergison and Wenger have brought in more than they have spent over the past few years. As have others.
Most accept they are in a job many would kill for and go about their work, misery guts hasn't stopped grumbling about money for god knows how long?
Money is not the only reason I'm watching turgid shite week in, week out. He's dragging everybody down because his arse has gone and his hearts not in it. I dislike Kenwright as much as the next switched on Evertonian but your man Moyes thinks he's the best thing since sliced bread.
Both Fergison and Wenger have brought in more than they have spent over the past few years. As have others.
Most accept they are in a job many would kill for and go about their work, misery guts hasn't stopped grumbling about money for god knows how long?
Money is not the only reason I'm watching turgid shite week in, week out. He's dragging everybody down because his arse has gone and his hearts not in it. I dislike Kenwright as much as the next switched on Evertonian but your man Moyes thinks he's the best thing since sliced bread.
Barry Rathbone
88 Posted 16/12/2011 at 22:58:29
88 Posted 16/12/2011 at 22:58:29
The OP misses the point saying who can better "best of the rest"; most critics target the Moyes brand of sterile football.
The question is ? can another manager address this?
The question is ? can another manager address this?
Steve Carter
89 Posted 16/12/2011 at 23:34:33
89 Posted 16/12/2011 at 23:34:33
We are NOT the fourth most successful club in the country. We may have been so under the old Football League arrangement. Nor is 'history' of any relevance: Italy, Spain, Portugal and Ireland have 'history'. For present purposes, 'history' began in 1992. Save for an FA Cup victory, it reveals no success whatsoever.
Brian Denton
90 Posted 17/12/2011 at 00:17:44
90 Posted 17/12/2011 at 00:17:44
Steve (87). Bollocks. History did not begin in 1992, It began when the Football League began. Are you stupid or something?
Tom Hughes
91 Posted 17/12/2011 at 00:09:16
91 Posted 17/12/2011 at 00:09:16
Stephen,
So you are comparing us with Arsenal and Man Utd?
I doubt they have done as you say, and in anycase the fact that they could probably both field 2 strong balanced sides, when we can barely make one suggests there is NO comparison to be made. They start from a much stronger position and they can, and do buy our prized assets.... (and yet, I have heard both complain that their competitors can be more freely).
"As have others"
Who? Who has a comparable net spend over the past 10 yrs? Who has secured as many points per pound spent?
I would say that lack of funds is easily the biggest contributor to "turgid" footy. Whether he thinks he is the best thing since sliced bread or not is irrelevant.
So you are comparing us with Arsenal and Man Utd?
I doubt they have done as you say, and in anycase the fact that they could probably both field 2 strong balanced sides, when we can barely make one suggests there is NO comparison to be made. They start from a much stronger position and they can, and do buy our prized assets.... (and yet, I have heard both complain that their competitors can be more freely).
"As have others"
Who? Who has a comparable net spend over the past 10 yrs? Who has secured as many points per pound spent?
I would say that lack of funds is easily the biggest contributor to "turgid" footy. Whether he thinks he is the best thing since sliced bread or not is irrelevant.
Eugene Ruane
92 Posted 17/12/2011 at 00:47:14
92 Posted 17/12/2011 at 00:47:14
Pictures large teacher with those patches on his elbows, lifting a swotty kid out of his seat by his sideez.
Teach: "1066 Simpkins!!? History didn't START until 1992 lad....WHEN didn't it start until!!?"
Swotty kid (crying) "Sir 1992!"
Teach: "1066 Simpkins!!? History didn't START until 1992 lad....WHEN didn't it start until!!?"
Swotty kid (crying) "Sir 1992!"
Stephen Kenny
93 Posted 17/12/2011 at 10:21:20
93 Posted 17/12/2011 at 10:21:20
Tom
The point I'm making and you have ignored to have a go at bill is this all managers have times where they have to sell to buy or even just to bring money in. I chose to give two of the most high profile examples.
Nowhere have I said our budgets the same as Arsenal or Man Utd no matter how often you or dave claim it. As I said in an earlier post their playing budgets far outweigh ours so they are expected to finish above us.
Both you and Dave have ignored several points I've made because they don't suit the point your trying to make. How can lack of funds be such a large contributor to turgid footy when sides with far worse squads play incisive football week in week out?
The point I'm making and you have ignored to have a go at bill is this all managers have times where they have to sell to buy or even just to bring money in. I chose to give two of the most high profile examples.
Nowhere have I said our budgets the same as Arsenal or Man Utd no matter how often you or dave claim it. As I said in an earlier post their playing budgets far outweigh ours so they are expected to finish above us.
Both you and Dave have ignored several points I've made because they don't suit the point your trying to make. How can lack of funds be such a large contributor to turgid footy when sides with far worse squads play incisive football week in week out?
Dave Wilson
94 Posted 17/12/2011 at 10:47:40
94 Posted 17/12/2011 at 10:47:40
Stephen
I don't think anyone is ignoring your point. I just think very few would agree with it.
There is a very clear difference between players wanting away and clubs having to sell. Books need balancing of course, but Man Utd and Arsenal have NEVER had to sell players, certainly not to survive.
We cannot spend anything at all. If every team that finished above us last season went and spent £100 million on players tomorrow, they`d still be in a stronger financial position than us.
These clubs with worse squads who play "incisive football, week-in, week-out" ? they don't exist, mate. It might look like that when you see highlights. We`ll see two of these much Vaunted in our next two games.... let's see if you can come back and make that statement after then.
I don't think anyone is ignoring your point. I just think very few would agree with it.
There is a very clear difference between players wanting away and clubs having to sell. Books need balancing of course, but Man Utd and Arsenal have NEVER had to sell players, certainly not to survive.
We cannot spend anything at all. If every team that finished above us last season went and spent £100 million on players tomorrow, they`d still be in a stronger financial position than us.
These clubs with worse squads who play "incisive football, week-in, week-out" ? they don't exist, mate. It might look like that when you see highlights. We`ll see two of these much Vaunted in our next two games.... let's see if you can come back and make that statement after then.
Tom Hughes
95 Posted 17/12/2011 at 11:38:02
95 Posted 17/12/2011 at 11:38:02
Stephen.... I haven't ignored it at all...... but who are all these teams that have played incisive footy and assumably finished above us repeatedly while spending less than us? They simply don't exist.... so who is really ignoring the others answers?
The bottom line is you made a comparison where there really isn't one.... to suit your argument. The glaring and over riding issue is the way the club has been run.... and regardless of who managed us that would be the case (including the esteemed managers you mention who wouldn't touch our basket case of a club with a lengthy barge pole). You're trying to fix a burning car with an engine change.
Moyes might not be able to match the managers you mention..... tbh we'll never really know unless he ever has comparable funds..... but he has certainly out performed the best of the rest consistently.... feel free to furnish us with names of those that have consistently out achieved him. There may indeed be better managers around yet to be discovered, or foreigners doing great things in lesser leagues but will they really want to come to a club that has a zero budget and a board that always fails to deliver?
The bottom line is you made a comparison where there really isn't one.... to suit your argument. The glaring and over riding issue is the way the club has been run.... and regardless of who managed us that would be the case (including the esteemed managers you mention who wouldn't touch our basket case of a club with a lengthy barge pole). You're trying to fix a burning car with an engine change.
Moyes might not be able to match the managers you mention..... tbh we'll never really know unless he ever has comparable funds..... but he has certainly out performed the best of the rest consistently.... feel free to furnish us with names of those that have consistently out achieved him. There may indeed be better managers around yet to be discovered, or foreigners doing great things in lesser leagues but will they really want to come to a club that has a zero budget and a board that always fails to deliver?
Roman Sidey
96 Posted 17/12/2011 at 15:47:22
96 Posted 17/12/2011 at 15:47:22
Can we please outlaw the term "net spend" from this site?
Tom Hughes
97 Posted 17/12/2011 at 17:30:27
97 Posted 17/12/2011 at 17:30:27
might as well ...... the club outlawed spending 2yrs ago......... along with AGMs and other non- necessities.
Roman Sidey
98 Posted 18/12/2011 at 13:06:12
98 Posted 18/12/2011 at 13:06:12
Actually a good article, Dave. I know your stance has been solid for a long time, but you've managed to be quite objective.
For me, a manager has many roles in the club, and Moyes just doesn't seem to be ticking enough boxes any more.
In the 10 years he's been here, he's been involved in approximately 35 different competitions that offered silverware.
0/35??? Sorry, not good enough, and I don't think there'd be many managers out there with a similar record at the one club.
For me, a manager has many roles in the club, and Moyes just doesn't seem to be ticking enough boxes any more.
In the 10 years he's been here, he's been involved in approximately 35 different competitions that offered silverware.
0/35??? Sorry, not good enough, and I don't think there'd be many managers out there with a similar record at the one club.
Roman Sidey
99 Posted 18/12/2011 at 13:09:49
99 Posted 18/12/2011 at 13:09:49
And a side note. As Martinez has been mantioned, and a lot of people have retorted that his belief in playing to your own strengths against the best will come back to bite him -
He got a point against Chelsea after trailing 0-1. How did he do that? I didn't actually see the game, but I'd hazzard a guess that when they went a goal behind, he didn't swap his striker for another defender.
He got a point against Chelsea after trailing 0-1. How did he do that? I didn't actually see the game, but I'd hazzard a guess that when they went a goal behind, he didn't swap his striker for another defender.
Cormac Murphy
100 Posted 25/12/2011 at 13:54:35
100 Posted 25/12/2011 at 13:54:35
Everton may end up with an unwanted, unique treble the way they're playing at the moment.
The next 2 home games are against Norwich & Swansea. Losing to these two teams, would mean Everton will have lost their three home games against the 3 newly-promoted teams to the Premier League.
The first "leg" of the treble has already been secured against QPR, our first home game of the season. Has this feat ever been achieved in the Premier League before?
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1 Posted 15/12/2011 at 13:30:46
The main thing that irritates me at the moment with Everton is the myth that Moyes has nothing to spend and comments such as Crawley have a larger transfer pot than Everton confirm that you are taken in by Moyes' spoutings also.
Everton's wage bill in the last accounts was £67m in the year. assuming we spent nil on transfers the money Moyes was given last season for his squad was £67m. Compare this with Crawley, maybe they spent £5m on transfers but what is their wage bill ? Likewise people say Stoke, Norwich, Wigan all spend more on transfers but again, what is their wage bill ? I would suggest none of those clubs spend anywhere near £67m on their squad in the year.
this is where the Moyes myth irritates me. It is his choice to have a large wage bill and nominal transfer kitty. Likewise it was his choice to sell our creative players and not any of the defensive players he could also have cashed in on. would we be a better team now if he had kept Arteta and Pienaar and sold Jagielka ?
We generally finish 'best of the rest' because we generally spend the most on players (transfers and wages) outside of the top 6 big spenders. we achieve what we should. This year we are not only falling below this expectation but we are doing it by playing some of the most boring football EVER seen at Goodison.
This is why I amongst others want Moyes to go, i am just plain bored by his demeanor (like taking a knife into a gunfight), his tactics, his moaning.
Could we get better ? My answer is definately although I accept that stability would be risked as there is always a risk with the appointment of a new manager. However, all these bright young managers you refer to, ask them whether they would like a fund of £67m to spend as they see fit on wages and transfers and I think they would bite your hand off ....