Season 2011-12 Fan Articles
Bring them all on... still!
By Nick Entwistle :: 02/01/2012
81 Comments (»Last)
An unbelievable manager he is. Like a captain steering a sinking ship into battle and surviving, regardless of armour or weaponry, he?s ready for the next.David Moyes has us undefeated in four, we have the fourth tightest defence and should we win our game in hand we would enter into the second half of the season only nine points from fourth.
This is the gap that time and time again we had to chase down in seasons past when the team were in their pomp and nobody cared that he?s got red hair. I would love to see this man achieve that triumph.
Even in their pomp though the team have never been the finished article, and this season is no different. But we?ve got Landon to come, Drenthe to improve game on game and who knows what Strac, Gueye, Barkley, Anichebe and even McFadden can do for our chances. Plus, there?s the possibility of some surprises in January.
Some people look down the table, I always look up, and if more people did too then there?s no telling what can happen when we actually start playing!
Moyes needs to get that into the players? heads as so many times he?s come close to closing down this gap with a run of form equal to the champions. He should now show why he?s on big money and remind us why we love this club. And he should prove to himself that he himself is a winner.
Reader Comments (81)
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Dennis Stevens
2 Posted 02/01/2012 at 16:47:06
2 Posted 02/01/2012 at 16:47:06
Moyes is not, never has been & never will be 'a winner'. However, he's a very effective survivor & ensuring our top flight survival seems to be what he's tasked with at Everton. Anything he achieves beyond survival is a bonus & I doubt it will ever include any silverware for the club, sadly.
Stephen Kenny
3 Posted 02/01/2012 at 17:00:52
3 Posted 02/01/2012 at 17:00:52
Nick
Like you I think that there's enough talent in this squad to feel that way. The only caveat I'd apply is a decent striker is desperately needed soon as.
This type of attitude is what I'd like to see from Moyes but publicly at least, he's defeatist. Privately I hope he's a different beast.
Fourth is a no-go as far as I'm concerned as there's too many good sides chasing CL money but stranger things have happened. Getting above the shite should see us into Europe and is do-able with a decent runs with injuries.
Like you I think that there's enough talent in this squad to feel that way. The only caveat I'd apply is a decent striker is desperately needed soon as.
This type of attitude is what I'd like to see from Moyes but publicly at least, he's defeatist. Privately I hope he's a different beast.
Fourth is a no-go as far as I'm concerned as there's too many good sides chasing CL money but stranger things have happened. Getting above the shite should see us into Europe and is do-able with a decent runs with injuries.
Ian Kearney
4 Posted 02/01/2012 at 18:01:53
4 Posted 02/01/2012 at 18:01:53
A rather dreadful sycophantic article, without any real analysis at all .
Mark Riding
5 Posted 02/01/2012 at 18:07:13
5 Posted 02/01/2012 at 18:07:13
Read the original post and imagine Stuart Hall saying it..
Barry Rathbone
6 Posted 02/01/2012 at 18:15:02
6 Posted 02/01/2012 at 18:15:02
Reality is seldom best ignored.
Didn't we have one of these last year and got twatted the next game?
Didn't we have one of these last year and got twatted the next game?
Kevin Hudson
7 Posted 02/01/2012 at 18:43:55
7 Posted 02/01/2012 at 18:43:55
Seven top 8 finishes in nine years is a wee bit MORE than "effective surviving," (sic) Dennis.
Predicatbly though, an (admittedly cloying) article gets jumped-on by the negative revisionists.
Nick, your comment about us going on a run of form equal to the champions is not pure hyperbole. In the remaining 23 games of last season, we picked up points in 18 of them, were unbeaten in the last 11 home games, (7 wins, 4 draws) and with an addition or two, I too expect us to kick-on to hopefully, a UEFA Cup place & a crack at the FA Cup.
Predicatbly though, an (admittedly cloying) article gets jumped-on by the negative revisionists.
Nick, your comment about us going on a run of form equal to the champions is not pure hyperbole. In the remaining 23 games of last season, we picked up points in 18 of them, were unbeaten in the last 11 home games, (7 wins, 4 draws) and with an addition or two, I too expect us to kick-on to hopefully, a UEFA Cup place & a crack at the FA Cup.
Chris James
8 Posted 02/01/2012 at 19:22:21
8 Posted 02/01/2012 at 19:22:21
I must admit I've been worn down a little by the last eighteen months and my previous positive thinking has been tempered by financial reality and relentless tactical negativity. (David, I love you man, but Phil Neville and Johnny Heitinga really are NOT midfielders and your faith in Cahill surely has to be backed up by form at some point!!).
That said, I do still firmly believe we have a side capable of challenging for European places and possibly even top 4, especially if we can get some more striking support in (or give some of the existing lads a chance to establish themselves).
We're sorting ourselves out defensively again and have a pretty solid central midfield with the likes of Felliani, Rodwell, Cahill, Osman and Barkley vying for places. We even have some flair and pace with the likes of Coleman, Drenthe and now Donovan.
For me all that's required is maybe one more experienced head up front (like others on here I'm bemused as to why Yakubu wasn't given a proper chance before being sold and was gutted that we missed out on Ba and even Bellamy in the summer - although in retrospect it's clearer why!) and for Moyes to give the attacking young bucks a proper chance as from what I've seen, pretty much all of Barkley, Gueye, Vellios, McAleny, Anichebe have a chance at breaking through and making a difference.
If we can do that I think a European place is well within our grasp (albeit more likely squeaking in 7th than making a bid for 4th).
That said, I do still firmly believe we have a side capable of challenging for European places and possibly even top 4, especially if we can get some more striking support in (or give some of the existing lads a chance to establish themselves).
We're sorting ourselves out defensively again and have a pretty solid central midfield with the likes of Felliani, Rodwell, Cahill, Osman and Barkley vying for places. We even have some flair and pace with the likes of Coleman, Drenthe and now Donovan.
For me all that's required is maybe one more experienced head up front (like others on here I'm bemused as to why Yakubu wasn't given a proper chance before being sold and was gutted that we missed out on Ba and even Bellamy in the summer - although in retrospect it's clearer why!) and for Moyes to give the attacking young bucks a proper chance as from what I've seen, pretty much all of Barkley, Gueye, Vellios, McAleny, Anichebe have a chance at breaking through and making a difference.
If we can do that I think a European place is well within our grasp (albeit more likely squeaking in 7th than making a bid for 4th).
Dennis Stevens
9 Posted 02/01/2012 at 20:22:34
9 Posted 02/01/2012 at 20:22:34
"Seven top 8 finishes in nine years ... "- interesting definition of a winner, Kevin.
Kevin Hudson
10 Posted 02/01/2012 at 20:32:24
10 Posted 02/01/2012 at 20:32:24
Point me in the direction of where I used the term "winner," Dennis.
Or, put another way: "Seven top 8 finishes in nine years," is (by you) an interesting and modest, definition of an "effective survivor."
Or, put another way: "Seven top 8 finishes in nine years," is (by you) an interesting and modest, definition of an "effective survivor."
Jimmy Sørheim
11 Posted 02/01/2012 at 20:26:11
11 Posted 02/01/2012 at 20:26:11
All previous seasons' results are now invalid as to what is to happen this season. When you remove the likes of Pienaar, Arteta, Yakubu, and Beckford, and add to that no replacements, then you look at a team fighting to survive, with injuries as well, then your optimism is just a daydream.
I think all Evertonians wants us to go as high as possible, but some more then others are realists and can see ahead and find that history is not likely to repeat itself now that all those players have left.
I think all Evertonians wants us to go as high as possible, but some more then others are realists and can see ahead and find that history is not likely to repeat itself now that all those players have left.
Brian Waring
12 Posted 02/01/2012 at 20:44:45
12 Posted 02/01/2012 at 20:44:45
8 pts against Swansea, West Brom, Norwich and Sunderland, and were playing excellent football to boot, none of this dire, negative shite, what more could we ask for!
Bring them all on I say, the Mancs, the Cockneys, the shite!
Bring them all on I say, the Mancs, the Cockneys, the shite!
Dennis Stevens
13 Posted 02/01/2012 at 20:37:58
13 Posted 02/01/2012 at 20:37:58
My apologies for any confusion, Kevin, I assumed our comments were in the context of the original post - it wasn't an accusation. I'm not too sure about a "modest definition", but do feel free to point me in the direction of where I've offered one. I did refer to Moyes as "a very effective survivor", but I'd consider that a description rather than a definition.
Col Noon
14 Posted 02/01/2012 at 21:07:37
14 Posted 02/01/2012 at 21:07:37
"Knife to a gunfight" ring any bells Nick?
Col Noon
15 Posted 02/01/2012 at 21:07:37
15 Posted 02/01/2012 at 21:07:37
"Knife to a gunfight" ring any bells Nick?
Sam Hoare
16 Posted 02/01/2012 at 21:28:01
16 Posted 02/01/2012 at 21:28:01
Good article Nick.
Moyes is picking up points by hook or by crook despite an enforced negative net spend again. It may not be the prettiest but it's working.
Moyes is picking up points by hook or by crook despite an enforced negative net spend again. It may not be the prettiest but it's working.
Kevin Hudson
17 Posted 02/01/2012 at 21:36:02
17 Posted 02/01/2012 at 21:36:02
Okay, Dennis, it's your funeral. Here's your quote:
"However, he's a very effective survivor & ensuring our top flight survival seems to be what he's tasked with at Everton. Anything he achieves beyond survival is a bonus.."
You now re-brand your words as being descriptive rather than a definitive. However, the key-words that jump out are the imaginary & speculative "survival," and "bonus."
Hence, there lies your modest definition of Moyes's raison-d'etre you claim not to have offered, in stark contrast to the manager's conspicuous lack of flirtation with the drop-zone.
"However, he's a very effective survivor & ensuring our top flight survival seems to be what he's tasked with at Everton. Anything he achieves beyond survival is a bonus.."
You now re-brand your words as being descriptive rather than a definitive. However, the key-words that jump out are the imaginary & speculative "survival," and "bonus."
Hence, there lies your modest definition of Moyes's raison-d'etre you claim not to have offered, in stark contrast to the manager's conspicuous lack of flirtation with the drop-zone.
Dalziel Kane
18 Posted 02/01/2012 at 21:44:33
18 Posted 02/01/2012 at 21:44:33
The club still retains the inability to frequently overcome lesser opposition, particularly at Goodison. One or two participants are giving Moyes accolades now whereas a week or two ago the Scotsman was getting dogs abuse and getting every colorful metaphor under the sun. I can understand their frustrations though...
This season leaves us with a very winnable third round tie in the FA Cup and an outside chance of a European berth by end of season. I'd really like to see us do something by end of season but too many times we've been simply let down.
I wish I could be more hopeful but I strongly feel this year will represent a 17th year without any actual trophies as such. I'm a realist not a pessimist. I really hope to be proved wrong though.
This season leaves us with a very winnable third round tie in the FA Cup and an outside chance of a European berth by end of season. I'd really like to see us do something by end of season but too many times we've been simply let down.
I wish I could be more hopeful but I strongly feel this year will represent a 17th year without any actual trophies as such. I'm a realist not a pessimist. I really hope to be proved wrong though.
Dennis Stevens
19 Posted 02/01/2012 at 22:15:54
19 Posted 02/01/2012 at 22:15:54
Kevin, you do seem to going off on one without actually making much of a point of any relevance. Perhaps a simple explanation will help clarify my original comment : my refering to Moyes as "a very effective survivor" is precisely because of our "conspicuous lack of flirtation with the drop-zone" during his tenure.
Dick Fearon
20 Posted 02/01/2012 at 22:33:13
20 Posted 02/01/2012 at 22:33:13
Simon #1, You are surprised that a Moyes positive post got past TWs editors. Let me tell you lad that on these very pages I am sick and tired of posting positive advice to the ginger man
Some of my suggestions might be physically impossible yet I would like him to try them.
Some of my suggestions might be physically impossible yet I would like him to try them.
Kevin Hudson
21 Posted 02/01/2012 at 22:36:31
21 Posted 02/01/2012 at 22:36:31
For "going off on one without actually making much of a point of any relevance," read: "Quoting your exact words," and pointing out their incongruity, Dennis.
On account of the fact that you claimed "anything Moyes achieves beyond survival is a bonus."
If this is either then low expectations on your part, then they are strange. The man himself has never indicated that Premier League survival remains the sole summit of his ambition, so it is therefore an odd thing for you to say, and warrants the query.
Given that 7 top eight finishes in 9 years is not the typical MO of a manager bent on survival, I'm pretty sure Moyes's take on it is a little more lofty than that which you assign him with.
But thanks for clearing up your conspicuously baseless assertion.
On account of the fact that you claimed "anything Moyes achieves beyond survival is a bonus."
If this is either then low expectations on your part, then they are strange. The man himself has never indicated that Premier League survival remains the sole summit of his ambition, so it is therefore an odd thing for you to say, and warrants the query.
Given that 7 top eight finishes in 9 years is not the typical MO of a manager bent on survival, I'm pretty sure Moyes's take on it is a little more lofty than that which you assign him with.
But thanks for clearing up your conspicuously baseless assertion.
Dennis Stevens
22 Posted 02/01/2012 at 22:56:55
22 Posted 02/01/2012 at 22:56:55
Oh dear, Kevin. I wasn't making any claims or assertions, nor would I want you to think my comments were in any way meant to be a representation of Moyes own expressed view. No, it was merely an opinion of my own. If you disagree you can just say so rather than dancing around the matter without actually going anywhere.
Richard Dodd
23 Posted 02/01/2012 at 22:57:30
23 Posted 02/01/2012 at 22:57:30
Nick,experience tells me you don`t get many plaudits on here for praising Moyes.
Regardless of his attainments,too many Evertonians are ready for change in the hope that some magician can be found `to take us to the next level`.
I have news for them.Blue Bill found the magician ten years ago and that man still has a host of tricks up his sleave.
The next one will be to transform this very ordinary side into European contenders-just wait and see!
Regardless of his attainments,too many Evertonians are ready for change in the hope that some magician can be found `to take us to the next level`.
I have news for them.Blue Bill found the magician ten years ago and that man still has a host of tricks up his sleave.
The next one will be to transform this very ordinary side into European contenders-just wait and see!
Shaun Sparke
24 Posted 02/01/2012 at 23:17:45
24 Posted 02/01/2012 at 23:17:45
For those who are stating that Moyes has never indicated that survival isn't in the forefront of his list of immediate ambitions, then please read this quote from the very man himself. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2078090/Survival-No-1-priority-says-Everton-manager-David-Moyes.html
Unless of course the Daily mail has completely misquoted him. (Shock horror, a newspaper making something up).
For my part I was delighted with his positive substitutions yesterday and happily give him the credit for that. However, I was dismayed when I saw the team sheet before the game. He picked one of the most defensive minded teams he could have picked from the players available to him. Even his most ardent of supporters would find it hard to get enthused over the attacking ambitions and capabilities of that starting 11.
Unless of course the Daily mail has completely misquoted him. (Shock horror, a newspaper making something up).
For my part I was delighted with his positive substitutions yesterday and happily give him the credit for that. However, I was dismayed when I saw the team sheet before the game. He picked one of the most defensive minded teams he could have picked from the players available to him. Even his most ardent of supporters would find it hard to get enthused over the attacking ambitions and capabilities of that starting 11.
Kevin Hudson
25 Posted 02/01/2012 at 23:22:36
25 Posted 02/01/2012 at 23:22:36
"Oh Dear," yourself, Dennis!
As you've now moved from descibing your position from being more of a "description than a definition," to an actual "opinion," now....
(Source: Dennis - posts 13 / 22).
So.. which is it then?
Merely descriptive or positively definitive..?
And if it really is your opinion that Moyes's (alleged) ability to survive relegation is a "bonus," then exactly what are you basing that on?
(Given that you re-iterated my point about the conspicuous lack of flirting with the drop-zone).
Oh, and yes I do disagree, definitively, and without shifting my position from one post to the next to try and keep up with the narrative.
As you've now moved from descibing your position from being more of a "description than a definition," to an actual "opinion," now....
(Source: Dennis - posts 13 / 22).
So.. which is it then?
Merely descriptive or positively definitive..?
And if it really is your opinion that Moyes's (alleged) ability to survive relegation is a "bonus," then exactly what are you basing that on?
(Given that you re-iterated my point about the conspicuous lack of flirting with the drop-zone).
Oh, and yes I do disagree, definitively, and without shifting my position from one post to the next to try and keep up with the narrative.
Paul Ferry
26 Posted 02/01/2012 at 23:20:21
26 Posted 02/01/2012 at 23:20:21
'Blue Bill found the magician ten years ago and that man still has a host of tricks up his sleave': like teaching you Doddy how to spell sleeve?
Like Turnstead, you tend to flitter from thread to thread, not answering questions that are put to you in all fairness. So, I'll ask them again and perhaps you might have the decency to answer them.
(1) Do you agree that the Saha and Cahill pairing should start?
(2) Do you agree that Neville should start in centre mid?
(3) Do you agree that Heitinga ought to start in centre mid?
(4) Do you think that Moyes has made any mistakes since the start of the season and list them for me please?
(5) and, are there any circumstances at all in which you would withdraw backing for Moyes or will you continue to sing your cheery bright songs in Moyesiah Wonderland?
Please answer these questions rather than trotting out the same old.
Like Turnstead, you tend to flitter from thread to thread, not answering questions that are put to you in all fairness. So, I'll ask them again and perhaps you might have the decency to answer them.
(1) Do you agree that the Saha and Cahill pairing should start?
(2) Do you agree that Neville should start in centre mid?
(3) Do you agree that Heitinga ought to start in centre mid?
(4) Do you think that Moyes has made any mistakes since the start of the season and list them for me please?
(5) and, are there any circumstances at all in which you would withdraw backing for Moyes or will you continue to sing your cheery bright songs in Moyesiah Wonderland?
Please answer these questions rather than trotting out the same old.
Shaun Sparke
27 Posted 02/01/2012 at 23:35:17
27 Posted 02/01/2012 at 23:35:17
Kevin. Maybe he was basing it on the article I have alluded to in the post immediately above yours.
Kevin Hudson
28 Posted 02/01/2012 at 23:35:07
28 Posted 02/01/2012 at 23:35:07
Shaun,
16 days before the Daily Mail article you point-up, David Moyes, was quoted by BET 365, as targeting a Euro push.
"At Everton we need European competition. I've missed it and I think the players and the supporters have. I'd like to think we can push and challenge this season but until we get another four or five wins under our belts I don't think I can say that yet."
Practical reality dictates that reaching the mythical gates of 40 point Elysium, is a priority to be achieved as quickly as possibly, BEFORE looking to push on to the aspirational targets.
Moyes has NEVER stated that surviving in the Premier League represents the peak of his personal ambition. Immediate does not imply long-term, and it is sloppy and scurrilous to paint him that way.
16 days before the Daily Mail article you point-up, David Moyes, was quoted by BET 365, as targeting a Euro push.
"At Everton we need European competition. I've missed it and I think the players and the supporters have. I'd like to think we can push and challenge this season but until we get another four or five wins under our belts I don't think I can say that yet."
Practical reality dictates that reaching the mythical gates of 40 point Elysium, is a priority to be achieved as quickly as possibly, BEFORE looking to push on to the aspirational targets.
Moyes has NEVER stated that surviving in the Premier League represents the peak of his personal ambition. Immediate does not imply long-term, and it is sloppy and scurrilous to paint him that way.
Roman Sidey
29 Posted 02/01/2012 at 23:39:39
29 Posted 02/01/2012 at 23:39:39
Oh, Kevin. Quotes and semantics. Is that all you can contribute?
I really do wish I was more positive about Moyes, but he can't even see the positives any more. Re: the "buzz" that Landon has created by returning, Moyes saw to it to very quickly wipe out any optimism the supporters might have had. Seriously, it's as if he saw someone else at the club getting all the attention and he's just throwing his toys around to make sure the limelight doesn't stray too far.
Once again, would love to see some positives, but what's good for the goose...
I really do wish I was more positive about Moyes, but he can't even see the positives any more. Re: the "buzz" that Landon has created by returning, Moyes saw to it to very quickly wipe out any optimism the supporters might have had. Seriously, it's as if he saw someone else at the club getting all the attention and he's just throwing his toys around to make sure the limelight doesn't stray too far.
Once again, would love to see some positives, but what's good for the goose...
Dave Lynch
30 Posted 02/01/2012 at 23:40:02
30 Posted 02/01/2012 at 23:40:02
Stopped reading the moment he mentioned McFadden.
Lee Courtliff
31 Posted 02/01/2012 at 23:34:35
31 Posted 02/01/2012 at 23:34:35
I admire the optimism Nick. I really do. My problem is that I just can't for the life of me understand some of Moyes' decisions. Neville and Johny in centre mid is just ridiculous. But in fairness we are on a little bit of a run so lets hope we can do our usual late surge. We aren't as far behind this year as we have been in the past.
Dennis Stevens
32 Posted 02/01/2012 at 23:35:49
32 Posted 02/01/2012 at 23:35:49
Kevin, what position are you not shifting?
Mark Riding
33 Posted 02/01/2012 at 23:55:36
33 Posted 02/01/2012 at 23:55:36
If he misses Europe so much, why did he 'rest' Howard against Chelsea in the league cup ? Goalkeeping error cost us, and also cost us the chance of progressing in a competition not all Premier teams take seriously. It also carries European qualification to the winner.
Mark Riding
34 Posted 02/01/2012 at 23:58:41
34 Posted 02/01/2012 at 23:58:41
Thats not an anti-Moyes rant by the way.. It just bugged me big time..
Shaun Sparke
35 Posted 02/01/2012 at 23:46:15
35 Posted 02/01/2012 at 23:46:15
Kevin, the quotes are taken from the mouth of David Moyes, not me or any other fan. But the man himself. My point, and it is quite clear if you care to read my article again was directed towards anybody who has stated that Moyes has never indicated that survival isn't in the forefront of his list of immediate ambitions. If you wish to draw similarities to something which was stated in an earlier post then that is your prerogative. However, you cannot claim that my comments are sloppy and scurrilous when all I have done is quote his own words. I then suggested that maybe the article was where Dennis got his information from. I didn't present this as an absolute fact.
May I suggest that you give your argumentative responses some clearer thought in future before pressing the submit comment button.
May I suggest that you give your argumentative responses some clearer thought in future before pressing the submit comment button.
Jon Ferguson
36 Posted 02/01/2012 at 23:39:39
36 Posted 02/01/2012 at 23:39:39
This season has been depressing. We have spent most of the season in the bottom half and have played some truly dire football at times. However I watched MOTD tonight and somehow we are 10th and only 6 points behind Newcastle with two games in hand(who have been receiving praise from all sides). I haven't felt positive much this season, but we have more points this time last season, maybe if we can keep Drenthe fit (and form our attacks around him), Donavon has a successful loan spell and we sign a forward with the Arteta (and hopefully the Bilyaletdinov) money we could do one better than last season and sneak back into the Europa or maybe even win the FA cup. I just hope we do it playing better football than the dire crap we have been subjected to so far this season. I will go back to being depressed if we lose to Bolton tomorrow.
Kevin Hudson
37 Posted 03/01/2012 at 00:53:17
37 Posted 03/01/2012 at 00:53:17
Roman,
I countered a Moyes quote supplied by Shaun, with a Moyes quote of my own, from the very same month.
Given that Shaun quite probably stands on the same side of the Moyes argument as you do, how REVEALING that you didn't quibble with HIS usage of quote.
Therein lies another blinkered hypocrisy, folks.
(Btw, along with the quotes and semantics, my argument also employed an essential, and clearly ignored fact, to demolish the nonsensical talk of surviving relegation).
I countered a Moyes quote supplied by Shaun, with a Moyes quote of my own, from the very same month.
Given that Shaun quite probably stands on the same side of the Moyes argument as you do, how REVEALING that you didn't quibble with HIS usage of quote.
Therein lies another blinkered hypocrisy, folks.
(Btw, along with the quotes and semantics, my argument also employed an essential, and clearly ignored fact, to demolish the nonsensical talk of surviving relegation).
Kevin Hudson
38 Posted 03/01/2012 at 01:07:35
38 Posted 03/01/2012 at 01:07:35
Shaun,
Before YOU press the submit button to mention the words: "Moyes," and "relegation," in the same sentence, may I suggest that YOU open yourself up to "clearer thought," by taking the cumulative league returns, and distinct lack of relegation battles into account.
..Before deliberately researching (nb: Googling the words: Moyes / relegation) locating one killer, contextualised quote, going: "Aha!" and just 'casually,' letting it hang there, by inference paints a not-so innocent, not so "I'm just quoting the guy, honest Guv," picture either..
May I also remind you that immediate does not imply long-term..? And that I have no problem with the pressing need for the team to get the points on the board, as early as possible?
My argument rests solely with Dennis's "anything he achieves beyond survival is a bonus," quote, which I thought worthy of closer scrutiny.
Dennis, "Which position am I not shifting?"
That would be the one that found your original statement downright bizarre, and incredulously disagreed with it. I also think you immediately understood my position, as indicated by your subsequent response to me.
Latterly, my 'position,' has observed your not-so-subtle re-interpretation of what your original (and repeatedly quoted) statement read.
Being as it is, the SIXTH time I have explained this to you, I trust that hopefully, it will have sunk in by now.
(Diagrams happily supplied upon request).
Before YOU press the submit button to mention the words: "Moyes," and "relegation," in the same sentence, may I suggest that YOU open yourself up to "clearer thought," by taking the cumulative league returns, and distinct lack of relegation battles into account.
..Before deliberately researching (nb: Googling the words: Moyes / relegation) locating one killer, contextualised quote, going: "Aha!" and just 'casually,' letting it hang there, by inference paints a not-so innocent, not so "I'm just quoting the guy, honest Guv," picture either..
May I also remind you that immediate does not imply long-term..? And that I have no problem with the pressing need for the team to get the points on the board, as early as possible?
My argument rests solely with Dennis's "anything he achieves beyond survival is a bonus," quote, which I thought worthy of closer scrutiny.
Dennis, "Which position am I not shifting?"
That would be the one that found your original statement downright bizarre, and incredulously disagreed with it. I also think you immediately understood my position, as indicated by your subsequent response to me.
Latterly, my 'position,' has observed your not-so-subtle re-interpretation of what your original (and repeatedly quoted) statement read.
Being as it is, the SIXTH time I have explained this to you, I trust that hopefully, it will have sunk in by now.
(Diagrams happily supplied upon request).
James Martin
39 Posted 03/01/2012 at 02:04:30
39 Posted 03/01/2012 at 02:04:30
For all those annoyed at Moyes (including myself at certain points this season), the vitriol behind this annoyance is due to high expectations that have been raised by Moyes to the point where, even after half a season of shocking football, we are still in striking distance of the teams above us. To be 10 points behind the RS at this stage with a game in hand is unbelievable.
Moyes's team that he has built over the last 10 years fell apart over the course of 2 seasons. His three best players all deserted him. We have no quality strikers, no guile or pace in the team, and a host of inexperienced young players as subs, all because we Moyes hasn't received investment. Add to this the injuries to Rodwell and the age of his current squad its an absolute miracle we aren't bottom of the league.
Seriously, when you have Neville and Heitinga in midfield, what are people expecting? It's not unreasonable to suggest that, considering Moyes has to make a whole new team from nowhere to finish ninth after your first half a season of doing it is a more than decent return. We expect more but as ever when being an Evertonian we are sadly, without investment, going to have to wait patiently for the better football to return.
Moyes's team that he has built over the last 10 years fell apart over the course of 2 seasons. His three best players all deserted him. We have no quality strikers, no guile or pace in the team, and a host of inexperienced young players as subs, all because we Moyes hasn't received investment. Add to this the injuries to Rodwell and the age of his current squad its an absolute miracle we aren't bottom of the league.
Seriously, when you have Neville and Heitinga in midfield, what are people expecting? It's not unreasonable to suggest that, considering Moyes has to make a whole new team from nowhere to finish ninth after your first half a season of doing it is a more than decent return. We expect more but as ever when being an Evertonian we are sadly, without investment, going to have to wait patiently for the better football to return.
Steve Barr
40 Posted 03/01/2012 at 02:25:21
40 Posted 03/01/2012 at 02:25:21
Look... we all want to see Everton turn the corner, play well and move up the table.
However, anyone with a basic appreciation of football will be able to see that we are serving up diabolical, boring, unimaginative dross at the moment. Have been all season. Particularly during this so called "good run".
In the past we have always been able to put in a couple of great performances each season, mainly because we actually had some excellent footballers in the team. We don't have them at the moment.
Seriously, I love Everton like the rest of you, but the football we have turned out this season has been a disgrace and an insult to the fans that give their all in supporting the team. Keep the faith but please don't insult our intelligence by trying to kid us into believing we are anything but a poor team this season.
I'm most certainly looking up, but what the team is dishing out at the moment is.....
However, anyone with a basic appreciation of football will be able to see that we are serving up diabolical, boring, unimaginative dross at the moment. Have been all season. Particularly during this so called "good run".
In the past we have always been able to put in a couple of great performances each season, mainly because we actually had some excellent footballers in the team. We don't have them at the moment.
Seriously, I love Everton like the rest of you, but the football we have turned out this season has been a disgrace and an insult to the fans that give their all in supporting the team. Keep the faith but please don't insult our intelligence by trying to kid us into believing we are anything but a poor team this season.
I'm most certainly looking up, but what the team is dishing out at the moment is.....
Ernie Baywood
41 Posted 03/01/2012 at 03:00:29
41 Posted 03/01/2012 at 03:00:29
Quite right, Steve. Past years we've had our limitations but have generally been unlucky to have been so low in the league at the turn of the year. Doing the same things eventually paid off and we found an improved position.
This season we are utter dross. Absolute shite. And if we continue to serve up the same then we'll sink to where this will deservedly land us. I'll suggest around 13th.
This season we are utter dross. Absolute shite. And if we continue to serve up the same then we'll sink to where this will deservedly land us. I'll suggest around 13th.
Shaun Sparke
42 Posted 03/01/2012 at 08:16:12
42 Posted 03/01/2012 at 08:16:12
Kevin, despite my suggestion for you to think clearly before pressing the submit comment button you have shown yourself incapable of doing this. I therefore invite you to point me to the post on this thread or any other thread that I have mentioned or alluded to the threat of relegation. To coin one of your phrases." It's your funeral."
Jamie Barlow
43 Posted 03/01/2012 at 08:28:25
43 Posted 03/01/2012 at 08:28:25
At least the suggestions of our final league position are getting higher. A couple of months ago, this useless bug-eyed ginger twat would be lucky to keep us in the premier league. Now he'll be lucky to finish in the top half with our useless football. Give it another month or so and we'll be lucky if Moyes can get us into Europe again.
Richard Dodd
44 Posted 03/01/2012 at 08:54:03
44 Posted 03/01/2012 at 08:54:03
Paul #26. You must lead a sad life to be correcting my spelling at 11.00pm! Having said that,I WILL answer your somewhat asinine questions.
!. No.
2. No.
3. No
4. Yes, but too many to list!
However,those answers must be qualified by the reality that they are given with the benefit of hindsight and I have no doubt that were I the manager (even if paid a ridiculous £67K a week!)we would be relegated by now!
Our man sees it as he sees it and in the longer term has ALWAYS proven to have made the RIGHT decisions by seasons` end.
Oh,as for question 5,I would certainly withdraw my support for the Moyestro would his overall decision making see us relegated..... without his having to sell all his best players!
With humble apols for spelling,grammatical mistakes etc,....
!. No.
2. No.
3. No
4. Yes, but too many to list!
However,those answers must be qualified by the reality that they are given with the benefit of hindsight and I have no doubt that were I the manager (even if paid a ridiculous £67K a week!)we would be relegated by now!
Our man sees it as he sees it and in the longer term has ALWAYS proven to have made the RIGHT decisions by seasons` end.
Oh,as for question 5,I would certainly withdraw my support for the Moyestro would his overall decision making see us relegated..... without his having to sell all his best players!
With humble apols for spelling,grammatical mistakes etc,....
Kevin Hudson
45 Posted 03/01/2012 at 10:38:22
45 Posted 03/01/2012 at 10:38:22
Oh, Darn it Shaun, the language did not specify the dreaded relegation word - you're absolutely right!!
I've clearly got you pegged all wrong.
But, wait.. the opening sentences of BOTH the article you submitted, and YOUR opening remarks, (post: 25) speak of Moyes's first priority being Premier League survival; Neither your post, nor the article, I repeat, do NOT mention relegation. (Per se).
So, I'm MYSTIFIED as to what it actually IS Moyes wishes to 'survive,' from when he speaks of obtaining 40 points, and given this was an article submitted by you, can you help me out here...? I would genuinely love to hear your theories..
If it AIN'T relegation..then ..is it survival from..?
The male menopause?
The Global Economic Meltdown?
Bill Kenwright's Luvvie Soiree's?
Leon Osman's thunderbolt strike's?
Surviving Steve Round's coma-inducing conversational style?
Perhaps an apolcalyptic Asteroid Strike?
Or North Korea's new "Great Leader," lauching a Nuke at Finch Farm?
How about survival in the Republican Party's Iowa Caucus?
A trip to Roysten Drenthe's barber?
Surviving the Mayan Calenders 2012 prediction?
I woild appreciate it if you could 'clear,' this one up..
I've clearly got you pegged all wrong.
But, wait.. the opening sentences of BOTH the article you submitted, and YOUR opening remarks, (post: 25) speak of Moyes's first priority being Premier League survival; Neither your post, nor the article, I repeat, do NOT mention relegation. (Per se).
So, I'm MYSTIFIED as to what it actually IS Moyes wishes to 'survive,' from when he speaks of obtaining 40 points, and given this was an article submitted by you, can you help me out here...? I would genuinely love to hear your theories..
If it AIN'T relegation..then ..is it survival from..?
The male menopause?
The Global Economic Meltdown?
Bill Kenwright's Luvvie Soiree's?
Leon Osman's thunderbolt strike's?
Surviving Steve Round's coma-inducing conversational style?
Perhaps an apolcalyptic Asteroid Strike?
Or North Korea's new "Great Leader," lauching a Nuke at Finch Farm?
How about survival in the Republican Party's Iowa Caucus?
A trip to Roysten Drenthe's barber?
Surviving the Mayan Calenders 2012 prediction?
I woild appreciate it if you could 'clear,' this one up..
Neal King
46 Posted 03/01/2012 at 11:31:58
46 Posted 03/01/2012 at 11:31:58
WTF does Kevin Hudson chat about, I can only read his comments for 2 lines before I fall asleep where I'm sat........... Get a life and stop boring the group.
Roman Sidey
47 Posted 03/01/2012 at 11:26:44
47 Posted 03/01/2012 at 11:26:44
Doddy, well done with answering those questions. I mean that. I am, quite openly, of very different opinion to you about the manager, but you've backed yourself there. Paul, they were very good questions too.
Back to Doddy, I don't really agree with the way you answered question four. A lot of games have turned out the way a lot of us predict because Moyes has come quite predictable. Hindsight really isn't needed all the time. Sometimes you just know.
In terms of the right decisions being made by seasons end, well, has Moyes made them? For instance, we finished just four points behind Liverpool last season. So, if just two of our poor results had have been different, say, West Ham (either game) and West Brom (again, either), we would have finished above them in 6th position, and made an extra 750k. In my opinion, and many others', those sets of poor results were very much down to Moyes making managerial mistakes, which cost us, immediately, momentum, and, by seasons' end, money.
Back to Doddy, I don't really agree with the way you answered question four. A lot of games have turned out the way a lot of us predict because Moyes has come quite predictable. Hindsight really isn't needed all the time. Sometimes you just know.
In terms of the right decisions being made by seasons end, well, has Moyes made them? For instance, we finished just four points behind Liverpool last season. So, if just two of our poor results had have been different, say, West Ham (either game) and West Brom (again, either), we would have finished above them in 6th position, and made an extra 750k. In my opinion, and many others', those sets of poor results were very much down to Moyes making managerial mistakes, which cost us, immediately, momentum, and, by seasons' end, money.
Mark Riding
48 Posted 03/01/2012 at 11:41:36
48 Posted 03/01/2012 at 11:41:36
#47 Roman, remember that Liverpool were shite for most of last season, and its only Dogleash that saved their season. They also spent a fair bit of dosh and we still finished behind them ! ( talking through my pocket a bit, as I put a fair bet on us finishing above them last year )...
Roman Sidey
49 Posted 03/01/2012 at 11:51:42
49 Posted 03/01/2012 at 11:51:42
I remember all that, Mark, fair enough. But still, regardless of how they came to their total, it still would only have taken two better results for us to beat get ahead of them.
I also acknowledge that, although in light of the derby refereeing this season being dreadful, last season's Anfield derby could have ended in a win to us had the ref been a bit better. I think a win there would have put us on a much better run too, so I'm not only blaming Moyes for us finishing below them. Same can be said for the home game against Man Utd.
I also acknowledge that, although in light of the derby refereeing this season being dreadful, last season's Anfield derby could have ended in a win to us had the ref been a bit better. I think a win there would have put us on a much better run too, so I'm not only blaming Moyes for us finishing below them. Same can be said for the home game against Man Utd.
Tony J Williams
50 Posted 03/01/2012 at 11:54:49
50 Posted 03/01/2012 at 11:54:49
Roman, we could have also finished below them by 20 points if our manager/team hadn't won games we thought we would lose. (twice against Man City) or drew against Man U with two injury time goals.
Ifs and buts, they mean nothing.
Shaun, read the article again mate, Moyes says, "'I can only look at our games and I am only looking to - first of all - get 40 points" - "'Once I have got 40 points I will see what I can do after that." - "'That has got to be the target for us just now and make sure we are not at the wrong end of the table"
Now what I read there, is that 40 points is his "first" target, not his only one. Once that target is reached, he will push on from there. Tthe 40 target is for "just now"
So what he is saying is that he has set himself a first target of 40 points and then will move on from there once reached. It's not his only aim at all but his first one. Quite straightforward really
Ifs and buts, they mean nothing.
Shaun, read the article again mate, Moyes says, "'I can only look at our games and I am only looking to - first of all - get 40 points" - "'Once I have got 40 points I will see what I can do after that." - "'That has got to be the target for us just now and make sure we are not at the wrong end of the table"
Now what I read there, is that 40 points is his "first" target, not his only one. Once that target is reached, he will push on from there. Tthe 40 target is for "just now"
So what he is saying is that he has set himself a first target of 40 points and then will move on from there once reached. It's not his only aim at all but his first one. Quite straightforward really
Roman Sidey
51 Posted 03/01/2012 at 12:06:40
51 Posted 03/01/2012 at 12:06:40
I know the ifs really don't mean anything, Tony. Just sayin.
Re: your analysis of his "40 points" speech; what bugs me about it is his language. "[S]ee what I can do after that." That just sounds defeatist. A manager in this day and age is similar to a politician, and they need to use language to their advantage to boost or maintain some morale.
Wouldn't it have sounded better to hear him say something like: "We know that 40 points is the safety net, and once we have that, then we set the higher goal of finishing the highest we can."
I'm eating my own words here, because I believe it should be every manager's job to aim to finish every season in first place.
Re: your analysis of his "40 points" speech; what bugs me about it is his language. "[S]ee what I can do after that." That just sounds defeatist. A manager in this day and age is similar to a politician, and they need to use language to their advantage to boost or maintain some morale.
Wouldn't it have sounded better to hear him say something like: "We know that 40 points is the safety net, and once we have that, then we set the higher goal of finishing the highest we can."
I'm eating my own words here, because I believe it should be every manager's job to aim to finish every season in first place.
Tony J Williams
52 Posted 03/01/2012 at 12:19:00
52 Posted 03/01/2012 at 12:19:00
"See what I can do after that." - Not too sure how this is defeatist. Yes he could have worded it better but is it not the truth.
Get 40 points and then take stock of the squad, the injuries, any loans or signings and see what we could realistically aim for. I suppose any sentence could be seen as pessimistic, as he has not said, "Get 40 points and then try to win every game after that"
The point I was trying to make is that Shaun has deliberately tried to twist Moyes's words in a way to make him sound that he is only bothered about staving off relegation, when it is clear from the whole article that he isn't saying that at all.
That is the usual MO of some posters though, only give snippets or totally misconstrue the manager's words.
Get 40 points and then take stock of the squad, the injuries, any loans or signings and see what we could realistically aim for. I suppose any sentence could be seen as pessimistic, as he has not said, "Get 40 points and then try to win every game after that"
The point I was trying to make is that Shaun has deliberately tried to twist Moyes's words in a way to make him sound that he is only bothered about staving off relegation, when it is clear from the whole article that he isn't saying that at all.
That is the usual MO of some posters though, only give snippets or totally misconstrue the manager's words.
Mark Stone
53 Posted 03/01/2012 at 12:22:12
53 Posted 03/01/2012 at 12:22:12
Doesn't work like that Roman. FYI West Brom and West Ham also beat Liverpool last season (under dog leash). Every team will drop points where they shouldn't and pick them up where they were not expected to ... Just look at the results over the past few days! Every team in the premier league has the potential to beat the any other on the right day. The reality is, that what matters is where you end up over the season. And all the evidence is that under David Moyes Everton consistently achieve top half finishes which are not consistent with our finances.
Kevin Hudson
54 Posted 03/01/2012 at 12:18:08
54 Posted 03/01/2012 at 12:18:08
Neal King,
I'll try to whisper this, as you're probably asleep..
Visiting an Internet forum & telling people to "get a life," is the most redundant thing I've ever seen.
(Tip). Don't read my stuff if it bores you, let alone invite a response via a self-defeating point.
I'll try to whisper this, as you're probably asleep..
Visiting an Internet forum & telling people to "get a life," is the most redundant thing I've ever seen.
(Tip). Don't read my stuff if it bores you, let alone invite a response via a self-defeating point.
Mark Stone
55 Posted 03/01/2012 at 12:44:52
55 Posted 03/01/2012 at 12:44:52
And Chelsea, Tony
Ernie Baywood
56 Posted 03/01/2012 at 13:01:55
56 Posted 03/01/2012 at 13:01:55
But Mark, is a top half finish really inconsistent with our finances? If you measure the value of a squad by what you pay them, and that is about the only snapshot you can get given you don't buy and sell each player every season, then we've been a top half side for a while now.
Shaun Sparke
57 Posted 03/01/2012 at 13:22:43
57 Posted 03/01/2012 at 13:22:43
Kevin, your latest response concerns me greatly. I rather foolishly thought that you were a well educated chap who enjoys defending his position which invariably involves backing David Moyes. I have no problem with that position and admire your fortitude in sticking to your guns despite sometimes unwarranted abuse directed towards you.
I presented some evidence that David Moyes has been quoted in the recent past stating that survival was currently his main priority. You did not like this and then retorted by accusing me of being sloppy and scurrilous.
Your irrational rattle throwing which manifests itself in producing a long list of possible meanings of survival was cringe worthy if not a little disturbing.
I now find myself considering whether it is worth entering any further debate with you as it is obvious that your main objective is to try and score points so you can beat your chest in caveman like manner and proudly proclaim that you have floored another poster with your benign assertions.
I presented some evidence that David Moyes has been quoted in the recent past stating that survival was currently his main priority. You did not like this and then retorted by accusing me of being sloppy and scurrilous.
Your irrational rattle throwing which manifests itself in producing a long list of possible meanings of survival was cringe worthy if not a little disturbing.
I now find myself considering whether it is worth entering any further debate with you as it is obvious that your main objective is to try and score points so you can beat your chest in caveman like manner and proudly proclaim that you have floored another poster with your benign assertions.
Shaun Sparke
58 Posted 03/01/2012 at 13:44:31
58 Posted 03/01/2012 at 13:44:31
Tony, I couldn't agree with you more and if you follow the conversation carefully you will find that I was offering some evidence that may or not have been the catalyst for the comment by Dennis, which seemed to annoy Kevin so much.
Kevin Hudson
59 Posted 03/01/2012 at 13:45:44
59 Posted 03/01/2012 at 13:45:44
Shaun,
Considering you're weighing-up whether or not to continue this debate, please accept my apologies for "disturbing," you, and also accept my thanks for your "concern."
Limiting my "irrational rattle-throwing," and given that it WAS you who supplied the quote, may I ask you again: What do YOU think David Moyes was talking about when he mentioned the term 'survival.'?
Could you also deign to illustrate WHY you chose to furnish the thread with this specific quote?
Considering you're weighing-up whether or not to continue this debate, please accept my apologies for "disturbing," you, and also accept my thanks for your "concern."
Limiting my "irrational rattle-throwing," and given that it WAS you who supplied the quote, may I ask you again: What do YOU think David Moyes was talking about when he mentioned the term 'survival.'?
Could you also deign to illustrate WHY you chose to furnish the thread with this specific quote?
Andy Corrie
60 Posted 03/01/2012 at 14:01:43
60 Posted 03/01/2012 at 14:01:43
Why has no one updated our prem league position on this website? We're still showing as12th!
Kevin Hudson
61 Posted 03/01/2012 at 14:04:44
61 Posted 03/01/2012 at 14:04:44
Shaun,
I also "couldn't agree more," with Tony, particularly when he says:
"Shaun has deliberately tried to twist Moyes's words in a way to make him sound that he is only bothered about staving off relegation." (Post:52)
I also "couldn't agree more," with Tony, particularly when he says:
"Shaun has deliberately tried to twist Moyes's words in a way to make him sound that he is only bothered about staving off relegation." (Post:52)
Andy Corrie
62 Posted 03/01/2012 at 14:01:43
62 Posted 03/01/2012 at 14:01:43
Why has no one updated our prem league position on this website? We're still showing as12th!
Andy Corrie
63 Posted 03/01/2012 at 14:01:43
63 Posted 03/01/2012 at 14:01:43
Why has no one updated our prem league position on this website? We're still showing as12th!
Paul Ferry
64 Posted 03/01/2012 at 14:22:59
64 Posted 03/01/2012 at 14:22:59
Thanks for answering my questions, Mr Dodd. I don't think any one of them was asinine at all. Not one silly question there, and, to be fair, I actually think that your answers put you in a rather more open light than we tend to get from you.
Oh, by the way, it might be 11:00pm in Freshfield, but it was 5:00pm in Chicago when I pressed submit.
Oh, by the way, it might be 11:00pm in Freshfield, but it was 5:00pm in Chicago when I pressed submit.
Mark Stone
65 Posted 03/01/2012 at 14:02:12
65 Posted 03/01/2012 at 14:02:12
Ernie, challenge accepted! Firstly, I don't think that salaries alone tell the full story if we are looking at money available to fund playing staff. So, I've added the average, annual net transfer fees spent by each team between 2006 - current, to their annual salaries paid to players. The only data I could find (all teams in one place - couldn't be arsed trawling the net) was salaries for 2009 and 2010
Here is where I found the data: http://www.transferleague.co.uk/league-tables/2006-2011.html and http://www.talksport.co.uk/magazine/features/2011-06-10/premier-league-football-clubs-wage-totals-revealed-where-does-your-club-rank?p=18
What I found, is that in 2010 Everton had the combined (wages+transfer fees) 12th highest expenditure on players in the premier league. There is a small group of teams who spend relatively little (£30 - 41 m) comparatively (the likes of Wigan and Blackburn at the upper end, and those who have yo yo'd in and out of the premier league or had the one odd season in it). Then there is group of teams spending between £50 - 60 m a year which consists of Bolton, Everton, Fulham and Stoke. For specificity we marginally outspent by Bolton both years (~£300,000 - 400,000) spent more than Stoke in 2009 but considerably less in 2010, and we were outspent considerably by Fulham (by ~£6m) both years. Above that things become a little fragmented but the likes of Sunderland (~£12m), Spurs (~£30m) Aston Villa (~£40m) all considerably outspent us and Arsenal spend approx twice what we did, Liverpool and Utd three times more and Chelski and Citteh about four times more than us. Given that we consistently finish above Villa, Sunderland, Fulham and others (West Ham outspend us considerably in 2009 and 2010, and I couldn't find data for Newcastle, but I reckon they'd be there or thereabouts).
In summary (don't know why I'm bothering - anyone in their right mind would stopped reading ages ago) - no I don't think our finances do make us top half. They put us at a pretty mediocre mid table (10th - 14th)
Here is where I found the data: http://www.transferleague.co.uk/league-tables/2006-2011.html and http://www.talksport.co.uk/magazine/features/2011-06-10/premier-league-football-clubs-wage-totals-revealed-where-does-your-club-rank?p=18
What I found, is that in 2010 Everton had the combined (wages+transfer fees) 12th highest expenditure on players in the premier league. There is a small group of teams who spend relatively little (£30 - 41 m) comparatively (the likes of Wigan and Blackburn at the upper end, and those who have yo yo'd in and out of the premier league or had the one odd season in it). Then there is group of teams spending between £50 - 60 m a year which consists of Bolton, Everton, Fulham and Stoke. For specificity we marginally outspent by Bolton both years (~£300,000 - 400,000) spent more than Stoke in 2009 but considerably less in 2010, and we were outspent considerably by Fulham (by ~£6m) both years. Above that things become a little fragmented but the likes of Sunderland (~£12m), Spurs (~£30m) Aston Villa (~£40m) all considerably outspent us and Arsenal spend approx twice what we did, Liverpool and Utd three times more and Chelski and Citteh about four times more than us. Given that we consistently finish above Villa, Sunderland, Fulham and others (West Ham outspend us considerably in 2009 and 2010, and I couldn't find data for Newcastle, but I reckon they'd be there or thereabouts).
In summary (don't know why I'm bothering - anyone in their right mind would stopped reading ages ago) - no I don't think our finances do make us top half. They put us at a pretty mediocre mid table (10th - 14th)
Mark Stone
66 Posted 03/01/2012 at 15:31:35
66 Posted 03/01/2012 at 15:31:35
Just to add, I agree with your point about 'you don't buy and sell every player every season' - but I think average transfer fees spent across a five year span is reasonable. If you do an average from 2003 - current you get a similar finding to those above.
Nate Allen
67 Posted 03/01/2012 at 15:34:54
67 Posted 03/01/2012 at 15:34:54
Win our game in hand? Right. WH Lane is one of the toughest places to get points, especially for a team struggling offensively.
Mark Riding
68 Posted 03/01/2012 at 15:39:41
68 Posted 03/01/2012 at 15:39:41
#64, Mark.. So, a change in ownership or Champions League qualification, is directly linked to wages then ?
I think we are punching above our weight, as your stats suggest, and you can only do that for so long without getting knocked out.
I think we are punching above our weight, as your stats suggest, and you can only do that for so long without getting knocked out.
Sam Morrison
69 Posted 03/01/2012 at 15:44:09
69 Posted 03/01/2012 at 15:44:09
Knowing Nick's contributions well, I can't help but come to the conclusion this is some kind of social experiment rather than his actual opinion. Or possibly a joke.
Apologies if I'm wrong, Nick. But it doesn't read like the arch-satirist of bygone threads, not in the slightest!
Apologies if I'm wrong, Nick. But it doesn't read like the arch-satirist of bygone threads, not in the slightest!
Mark Riding
70 Posted 03/01/2012 at 15:48:26
70 Posted 03/01/2012 at 15:48:26
I would add that I bet its a hell of a lot less for 2011, now that our 'big earners' have been sold, although the Fellani contract may have upped it a little..
Mark Stone
71 Posted 03/01/2012 at 16:08:57
71 Posted 03/01/2012 at 16:08:57
Yeah I was going to add something about that, Mark (68) but I thought I'd maybe waffled on long enough!!! I reckon that Arteta, Yak, Peanuts and Vaughan going has wiped at least £8m a year off the wage bill (complete guess). I know one or two have come in but they won't be on the type of money that some of the former were on. Maybe down to £49m a year for 2011/12 compared with £54 in 2010/11? Another interesting point is that what we are spending now, the shite were spending at the turn of the century!
On your previous point, I think that the real benefit of a takeover now would be to clear the debt and maybe get a new stadium (or a refurb). We had a chance to break into the top four if we'd been taken over before the City/Spurs 'revolutions' when we were getting top 5/6 finishes but its a pipe dream now. Breaking into the top SIX would actually be remarkable given the financial gulf between 'them and us'. You're talking sustained investment on the playing side (wages and transfers) of over £100m (+) a year for several years just to get on a level playing field with the top 6, plus a new ground, plus the debt cleared etc. It would cost close to £1bn (conservative estimate) and you wouldn't even be guaranteed Europe.
It would be great if someone came in, cleared the debt and built a new stadium/did up the Grand Old Lady, but you'd have to be barmy. We aren't in a terrible position, and I can see us maintaining a high to middle midtable premier league position for the foreseeable future - whilst are finances are pretty grim we do have a much better turnover than the typical relegation candidates and the yoyo teams. Also, despite what people think, we have the best premier league manager outside the top 6 (and maybe even better than some in it) - that is based on league positions and money spent, we have some fantastic players in the first team and we have a great youth setup that proving to be succesful in developing some fantastic players.
Unfortunately for us fans, the ambitions of the club have changed from trying to sneak into Europe. Even a takeover wouldn't change that.
On your previous point, I think that the real benefit of a takeover now would be to clear the debt and maybe get a new stadium (or a refurb). We had a chance to break into the top four if we'd been taken over before the City/Spurs 'revolutions' when we were getting top 5/6 finishes but its a pipe dream now. Breaking into the top SIX would actually be remarkable given the financial gulf between 'them and us'. You're talking sustained investment on the playing side (wages and transfers) of over £100m (+) a year for several years just to get on a level playing field with the top 6, plus a new ground, plus the debt cleared etc. It would cost close to £1bn (conservative estimate) and you wouldn't even be guaranteed Europe.
It would be great if someone came in, cleared the debt and built a new stadium/did up the Grand Old Lady, but you'd have to be barmy. We aren't in a terrible position, and I can see us maintaining a high to middle midtable premier league position for the foreseeable future - whilst are finances are pretty grim we do have a much better turnover than the typical relegation candidates and the yoyo teams. Also, despite what people think, we have the best premier league manager outside the top 6 (and maybe even better than some in it) - that is based on league positions and money spent, we have some fantastic players in the first team and we have a great youth setup that proving to be succesful in developing some fantastic players.
Unfortunately for us fans, the ambitions of the club have changed from trying to sneak into Europe. Even a takeover wouldn't change that.
Paul Johnson
72 Posted 03/01/2012 at 16:57:45
72 Posted 03/01/2012 at 16:57:45
Mark Stone what worries me though is you will also find our income through gate receipts has dropped this season which will also impact on match day revenue.
This will mean a further required reduction in salaries and probably another player having to be sold to generate income.
We really are up shit creek.
This will mean a further required reduction in salaries and probably another player having to be sold to generate income.
We really are up shit creek.
Mark Stone
73 Posted 03/01/2012 at 20:07:47
73 Posted 03/01/2012 at 20:07:47
Possibly Paul, we'll see. Are you by any chance Paul Johnson of (many years ago)Lee Park (not sure if thats Gateacre or Netherley) fame?
Probably not - it not an uncommon name! But he was a blue too!
Probably not - it not an uncommon name! But he was a blue too!
Roman Sidey
74 Posted 03/01/2012 at 20:55:20
74 Posted 03/01/2012 at 20:55:20
Tony, in #52 I respect everything you're saying. What scares me though is your asking if Moyes should say something along the lines of "Get to 40 points and then try to win every game after that".
Well, I've said it in a number of ways before, but if ANY manager at ANY club did not aim to win every single game they play, then they aren't fit to be a manager of ANY team in ANY league.
Well, I've said it in a number of ways before, but if ANY manager at ANY club did not aim to win every single game they play, then they aren't fit to be a manager of ANY team in ANY league.
Dennis Stevens
75 Posted 04/01/2012 at 11:45:43
75 Posted 04/01/2012 at 11:45:43
Kevin if only you could cut back on the patronising verbosity & improve your comprehension a tad.
From my first post : ? ... he's a very effective survivor ...?.
Your response : ?Seven top 8 finishes in nine years is a wee bit MORE than "effective surviving," ...?
I agree, hence my use of the word ?very?.
Then you argue about definitions versus descriptions & accuse me of ?re-branding? [like a cattle rustler?], before stating that the words "survival" and "bonus" are "imaginary & speculative" . Adding that my comment, above, is ?in stark contrast to the manager's conspicuous lack of flirtation with the drop-zone?.
When I seek to clarify for you that ? ... my refering to Moyes as "a very effective survivor" is precisely because of our "conspicuous lack of flirtation with the drop-zone" during his tenure?, you sem to consider this a change on my part ? it is not. Had Moyes provided a decade of survival in the Mike Walker style, then saying ? ... he's a very effective survivor ...? would be generous in the extreme.
Then you move on to another point in that first post : ?Anything he achieves beyond survival is a bonus ...?. You comment that this ?claim? is a ? ... baseless assertion? due to low expectations on my part.
Again you seem to require clarification that no ?claims? or ?assertions? are being made, merely an expression of my own opinion ? as you correctly comment, it?s a reflection of those low expectations I have of Moyes. It?s commendable that on occasions he has exceeded my expectations & taken us into Europe, however, they haven?t been altered as a result.
Next you laughably either lose track completely or just decide to re-write my opinion for me : ?if it really is your opinion that Moyes's (alleged) ability to survive relegation is a "bonus," then exactly what are you basing that on??
Well, I?m not basing that on anything, as I?ve never said it or anything like it ?by the way, is that your ?(alleged)?, or is it supposed to be mine?
It?s unfortunate that you seem to think simple points of clarification are ? ... shifting my position from one post to the next ... ?, but at least you confirm you are not to be shifted. When I then ask you ? ...what position are you not shifting??, bearing in mind that at no point have you offered your view on Moyes, or told us what your expectations are of him as Everton manager, you tell us that your position is that you disagree.
Disagreeable would be more accurate.
Oh, & I still view Moyes as a very effective survivor & if he exceeds my, admittedly low, expectations & we qualify for Europe via either the League or Cup then I will consider it a huge bonus.
No doubt you?ll disagree.
From my first post : ? ... he's a very effective survivor ...?.
Your response : ?Seven top 8 finishes in nine years is a wee bit MORE than "effective surviving," ...?
I agree, hence my use of the word ?very?.
Then you argue about definitions versus descriptions & accuse me of ?re-branding? [like a cattle rustler?], before stating that the words "survival" and "bonus" are "imaginary & speculative" . Adding that my comment, above, is ?in stark contrast to the manager's conspicuous lack of flirtation with the drop-zone?.
When I seek to clarify for you that ? ... my refering to Moyes as "a very effective survivor" is precisely because of our "conspicuous lack of flirtation with the drop-zone" during his tenure?, you sem to consider this a change on my part ? it is not. Had Moyes provided a decade of survival in the Mike Walker style, then saying ? ... he's a very effective survivor ...? would be generous in the extreme.
Then you move on to another point in that first post : ?Anything he achieves beyond survival is a bonus ...?. You comment that this ?claim? is a ? ... baseless assertion? due to low expectations on my part.
Again you seem to require clarification that no ?claims? or ?assertions? are being made, merely an expression of my own opinion ? as you correctly comment, it?s a reflection of those low expectations I have of Moyes. It?s commendable that on occasions he has exceeded my expectations & taken us into Europe, however, they haven?t been altered as a result.
Next you laughably either lose track completely or just decide to re-write my opinion for me : ?if it really is your opinion that Moyes's (alleged) ability to survive relegation is a "bonus," then exactly what are you basing that on??
Well, I?m not basing that on anything, as I?ve never said it or anything like it ?by the way, is that your ?(alleged)?, or is it supposed to be mine?
It?s unfortunate that you seem to think simple points of clarification are ? ... shifting my position from one post to the next ... ?, but at least you confirm you are not to be shifted. When I then ask you ? ...what position are you not shifting??, bearing in mind that at no point have you offered your view on Moyes, or told us what your expectations are of him as Everton manager, you tell us that your position is that you disagree.
Disagreeable would be more accurate.
Oh, & I still view Moyes as a very effective survivor & if he exceeds my, admittedly low, expectations & we qualify for Europe via either the League or Cup then I will consider it a huge bonus.
No doubt you?ll disagree.
Kevin Hudson
76 Posted 04/01/2012 at 12:33:51
76 Posted 04/01/2012 at 12:33:51
Re: 'Surviving relegation being a bonus,'
"I never said it or anything like it." (Dennis Stevens: Post 75).
"Ensuring our top flight survival seems to be what he's tasked with at Everton. Anything he achieves beyond survival is a bonus.." (Dennis again: Post 2).
"I never said it or anything like it." (Dennis Stevens: Post 75).
"Ensuring our top flight survival seems to be what he's tasked with at Everton. Anything he achieves beyond survival is a bonus.." (Dennis again: Post 2).
Sam Hoare
77 Posted 04/01/2012 at 13:12:08
77 Posted 04/01/2012 at 13:12:08
Thats a KO Dennis.
Don't make a big fuss about not having said something without having at least checked first! Post 2!
Don't make a big fuss about not having said something without having at least checked first! Post 2!
Dennis Stevens
78 Posted 04/01/2012 at 12:59:49
78 Posted 04/01/2012 at 12:59:49
Well, silly me. I expected disagreement, but instead you kindly quote me so as to confirm I was correct in my assertion. Thanks for such a pleasant surprise, Kevin.
I would point out that the opinion you falsely credited to me refered to " ... Moyes's (alleged) ability to survive relegation is a "bonus," ... ", but as you now seem to be countering points I haven't even made then I won't be churlish. Just to be clear, I didn't say that either survival, or Moyes ability in that regard, or even his (alleged) ability, were a bonus. Perhaps the key-word that jumps out from the above quote is the word "beyond".
I'll leave you to have the final word, Kevin & I'd be most interested if your own view were expressed re Moyes : if not "a very effective survivor", then what? - if your expectations of him differ to mine, then how?
I would point out that the opinion you falsely credited to me refered to " ... Moyes's (alleged) ability to survive relegation is a "bonus," ... ", but as you now seem to be countering points I haven't even made then I won't be churlish. Just to be clear, I didn't say that either survival, or Moyes ability in that regard, or even his (alleged) ability, were a bonus. Perhaps the key-word that jumps out from the above quote is the word "beyond".
I'll leave you to have the final word, Kevin & I'd be most interested if your own view were expressed re Moyes : if not "a very effective survivor", then what? - if your expectations of him differ to mine, then how?
Kevin Hudson
79 Posted 04/01/2012 at 13:53:57
79 Posted 04/01/2012 at 13:53:57
Using the word "anything beyond survival," implies that surviving relegation IS a bonus. But I GET that (semantically) this could also be stretched to incorporate the theoretical bonuses finishing seventeenth, or of winning the Champions League, sleeping with Scarlett Johannsen or headlining at Glastonbury, Dennis.
By all means, you pat yourself on the back son..
By all means, you pat yourself on the back son..
Kevin Hudson
80 Posted 04/01/2012 at 14:14:23
80 Posted 04/01/2012 at 14:14:23
Actually, I haven't quite finished wringing your neck, Dennis.
We've mathematically established that in this instance, survival in the Premier League would be indicated by a 17th place finish; Agreed..?
Therefore, according to you, finishing SIXTEENTH technically qualifies as a BONUS; Right..?
However way you look at it, given Moyes's track recored, that remains one of the most idiotic statements I've ever read on this site.
(I'm done).
We've mathematically established that in this instance, survival in the Premier League would be indicated by a 17th place finish; Agreed..?
Therefore, according to you, finishing SIXTEENTH technically qualifies as a BONUS; Right..?
However way you look at it, given Moyes's track recored, that remains one of the most idiotic statements I've ever read on this site.
(I'm done).
Sam Morrison
81 Posted 05/01/2012 at 13:51:27
81 Posted 05/01/2012 at 13:51:27
OK apologies Nick - I may have got the Nicks or Entwhistle and Armitage mixed up.
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1 Posted 02/01/2012 at 15:34:54
Sarcasm aside, nice to see some positivity and I agree with every word Nick. Always prefer to consider the glass half full myself.
The buzz that Donovan's return has given the team is immense, can you imagine if we signed a young pacy striker with an eye for goal? The place would go crazy.
Still believe we have half a team that with the right additions could do something!
COYB!