Season 2011-12 Fan Articles
Now Is The Winter Of Our Discontent
By Scott Campbell :: 23/01/2012
107 Comments (»Last)
For the first time in a decade, I seriously fear for our safety this season. Saturday's defeat [I think you mean draw! — Ed] to Blackburn was yet another tiresome, negative, lifeless performance. I did not fancy us at all, in a game we simply had to win, and I thought we'd probably end up with a point. In the end, we probably didn't even deserve that! As a result, we are left on 26 points, 8 clear of the bottom three. On first reflection, and this is a sad indictment of what our club is increasingly turning into, those 8 points seem like a fair buffer zone for us ? it is effectively three wins clear of Blackburn in 18th. However, when you look at both sides on Saturday, it's clear which of the two teams have the desire and drive to grind out results to survive ? Blackburn.
Then consider how the sides below us right now ? Wigan, Wolves, Blackburn, Bolton, QPR, West Brom ? are acting positively to combat their fears of the drop, and how these sides look hungrier than we do to remain in the top flight; and how they have the tools required to do so.
Then consider our next five fixtures: Man City (H), Wigan (A), Chelsea (H), Liverpool (A), QPR (A) ? and ask yourself, will we have say 30 points after them? On the basis of the last few weeks, and the manager's unwillingness to change, I seriously doubt it! We follow the trip to Loftus Road by the way, with back-to-back home games against Tottenham and Arsenal! We could by the end of March be quite conceivably in the bottom three!
All of this, of course, is merely a prediction. It's a grim one, but I firmly believe it's a very real one. It is not an overreaction to say that relegation is a very real possibility for us this season. The fact of the matter is that Blackburn were the latest opposition to completely outplay us on Saturday. They were by far the better side and must have gone away from Goodison bewildered as to how they had not taken all 3 points. We were very, very lucky to take a point. We were well beaten at home by Bolton, who lie below us and we have failed to convince at home against other struggling sides like Wigan and Wolves. It's all incredibly worrying.
What is perhaps even more worrying though, is how a fair amount of Evertonians don't seem to think anything is wrong. There are still people defending Bill Kenwright ? which I find utterly baffling ? likewise there are those who think that David Moyes is one of the league's best managers ? laughable!
This combo, this Moyes-Kenwright love-in, is slowly and painfully bringing our football club to its knees. Yet there are those who continue to defend the undefendable; whilst others look on in despair at what is going on both on and off the pitch. The question I want to put to those who continue to defend David Moyes and Bill Kenwright is: Will you continue to defend them, to support them, if and when we find ourselves playing Championship football next season? And the way things are going, that is where we're heading!
Off the pitch, Kenwright's latest bit of propagandist manoeuvring was a few weeks back when confronted by a group of supporters asking questions that needed to be asked. Having already treated the supporters with his usual smugness and arrogance, Kenwright came out with "Your Blue Union has betrayed this club..." In that he attempted to somehow equate being critical and worried about the football club we love with a betrayal!?
So I assume that Kenwright is infallible in his own eyes and that criticism of him is strictly forbidden. This increasing arrogance and denial sees our chairman gradually morphing into Nicolae Ceausescue; being fired upon by angry supporters whilst telling himself everything is fine. The utter disdain with which Kenwright treated those supporters and his utterly perplexing comment about the Blue Union should really have tipped those who are chuffed to bits that we have an Evertonian as a chairman towards discontent, yet it seemed, amazingly only to strengthen their disillusion.
Kenwright's subsequent martyrdom in the Mirror newspaper by David Maddock regarding the incident was nothing short of shameful. Expressing concern about the future of the football club you love is not a betrayal. It is out of love and passion for Everton Football Club that we ask the questions that need to be asked.
On the pitch, Saturday was, for me, another game which served to highlight why David Moyes needs to either resign or be sacked! The absolute predictability of how we would line-up on Saturday was almost comical. Moyes is either unwilling or incapable of changing things. He is certainly unwilling to be positive ? unless there's 3 minutes to go, of course. His football is dour, dull, predictable and it is not working anymore.
We can't break teams down, we're unable to create chances. Leighton Baines has landed more crosses into the area than any other player in the Premier League this season, yet nobody is there to put their head on the ball. Moyes's refusal, even as things are crumbling around him, to try something different is just pathetic. His system is dull, predictable and it's not working... so change it... but no! T
he manager has to be questioned when things are continuously going so badly as they are now. He signs the players, he works with them in training all week, he picks the team, he chooses the system, he does the team talks ? the buck stops with him! When you get awful performance after awful performance; negativity and more negativity, the manager is to blame... But still supporters back and refuse to accept that he might be at fault; just like they seem to think that Kenwright has the club's best interests at heart as he strips it of all its assets.
I'm not sure if they see the same games I see or whether they listen to the no-marks in the press who peddle the BS about what a great manager Moyes is! Robbie Savage is one of the primary crap talkers around at present. His suggestion over the weekend was that we play the worst football in the league but David Moyes is a great manager and he will get fed up and take his dour football to a top 4 club! Seriously? This was his assessment, Moyes will go from Everton and manage one of the top 4!!! I assume Savage believes that Moyes's training and tactical talks are all about tiki-taka and total football but the players just go out and decide to do what they want, which is defend... badly.
And where this Moyes worship comes from I really do not understand?? What is it based on? An FA Cup Final appearance? A couple of European qualifications? These people have clearly bought into Moyes-Kenwright propaganda that we're "continuously punching above our weight" and all that nonsense. It is complete and utter garbage! If we were finding ourselves with Champions League qualification every season, knocking Arsenal or Chelsea out of the top four then sure, we might very well be punching above our weight but finishing seventh?? Not really. I think seventh is quite clearly in our weight division.
Moyes's utterly negative brand of football, and his unwillingness to change it, has left us at a point where we're unable to break teams down, due to the complete absence of creativity in the system. This as a result has meant that we've scored just 22 goals this season ? the only team with a lower goals tally than that being bottom club Wigan ? and on three occasions this season we have failed to have a single effort on goal! Couple that with an inability to keep a clean sheet and you have a prime relegation candidate!
What we're going through right now feels just the same as the last days of Walter Smith's reign. Bringing David Weir back in would just compound it for me! We are gradually in this footballing black hole heading towards the event horizon where there will be no conceivable way back. Moyes needs to go soon and more fans need to begin to show their discontent or we could find the club we love have become another Leeds United!
Reader Comments (107)
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Chris Williams
2 Posted 23/01/2012 at 16:00:52
2 Posted 23/01/2012 at 16:00:52
A Blackburn supporter said to me 'I feel sorry for you having to watch this every week'
A BLACKBURN SUPPORTER!!
A BLACKBURN SUPPORTER!!
Jimmy Sørheim
3 Posted 23/01/2012 at 16:12:55
3 Posted 23/01/2012 at 16:12:55
That was a heartfelt article, and you incapsled it all for me.
The whole situation is just tragic, but when you have a problem this big you have to start at one end and go from there, change the manager, or force Moyes to resign based on protest inside the ground.
I missed my first match against Blackburn this season, I can not stand to watch Moyes pick the same out of form players and he should at least give more youth a try.
Baxter, Mcaleny and Vellios are all forward players who look hungry and I want them to play instead of Mcfadden,Saha and Straqualursi.
That is never going to happen while Moyes is still herte, and we wil go down if he can not change things around.
Moyes has lost the faith and should leave on his own free will.
The whole situation is just tragic, but when you have a problem this big you have to start at one end and go from there, change the manager, or force Moyes to resign based on protest inside the ground.
I missed my first match against Blackburn this season, I can not stand to watch Moyes pick the same out of form players and he should at least give more youth a try.
Baxter, Mcaleny and Vellios are all forward players who look hungry and I want them to play instead of Mcfadden,Saha and Straqualursi.
That is never going to happen while Moyes is still herte, and we wil go down if he can not change things around.
Moyes has lost the faith and should leave on his own free will.
Bob Willis
4 Posted 23/01/2012 at 16:29:38
4 Posted 23/01/2012 at 16:29:38
'Saturday's defeat to Blackburn was yet another tiresome, negative, lifeless performance'
You bet it was!! But considering we DREW and were not defeated as you say - it was probably an awesome result.
I was there - and I say it was worse that tiresome, negative, lifeless - it was not even a performance - it was shite - much the same as all the other home games this season.
You bet it was!! But considering we DREW and were not defeated as you say - it was probably an awesome result.
I was there - and I say it was worse that tiresome, negative, lifeless - it was not even a performance - it was shite - much the same as all the other home games this season.
Steve Higham
5 Posted 23/01/2012 at 16:16:03
5 Posted 23/01/2012 at 16:16:03
Great post Scott you have summed it all up for me.
Have never witnessed in a lifetime of supporting the blues such negative,boring and turgid football.
Have believed for a while that Kenwright and Moyes are a double act they are made for each other. Each compliments the other. Moyes toes the line and get paid handsomely for doing so. Moyes states BK is the best chairman you could get.Both are culpable of turning the club into a laughing stock.
It amazes me too that we supporters home and away put up with the dross served up every game.It is like groundhog day every game the same tactics and Moyes playing his dressing room clique of Cahill and Neville every game.
I have had to accept that where not going to win a trophy anymore -courtesy of having any positivity taken away from me each season. So now when I go to home or away games I just hope for some decent entertaining football - fat chance of that happening so now do I now have to accept that staying in the premier league is the best we can do.
To all our supporters does NSNO mean anything - it certainly means nothing to Moyes and Kenwright.
Have never witnessed in a lifetime of supporting the blues such negative,boring and turgid football.
Have believed for a while that Kenwright and Moyes are a double act they are made for each other. Each compliments the other. Moyes toes the line and get paid handsomely for doing so. Moyes states BK is the best chairman you could get.Both are culpable of turning the club into a laughing stock.
It amazes me too that we supporters home and away put up with the dross served up every game.It is like groundhog day every game the same tactics and Moyes playing his dressing room clique of Cahill and Neville every game.
I have had to accept that where not going to win a trophy anymore -courtesy of having any positivity taken away from me each season. So now when I go to home or away games I just hope for some decent entertaining football - fat chance of that happening so now do I now have to accept that staying in the premier league is the best we can do.
To all our supporters does NSNO mean anything - it certainly means nothing to Moyes and Kenwright.
Tony J Williams
6 Posted 23/01/2012 at 16:39:39
6 Posted 23/01/2012 at 16:39:39
"playing his dressing room clique of Cahill and Neville every game" - Neville only got back in due to injuries. he was on the bench for a while....but I do agree about playing his favourites.
Saha (unbeleivably uninjured for this amount of time) needs to be put to pasture but I fear Vellios is not the answer and that useless lump Anichebe certainly isn't.
Stick Donovan up front for a bit, can't do any worse.
Saha (unbeleivably uninjured for this amount of time) needs to be put to pasture but I fear Vellios is not the answer and that useless lump Anichebe certainly isn't.
Stick Donovan up front for a bit, can't do any worse.
Chris Matheson
7 Posted 23/01/2012 at 17:18:22
7 Posted 23/01/2012 at 17:18:22
Good piece Scott and you are not wrong, relegation is a serious threat this season now.
But let me pick you up on one point, when you say "Leighton Baines has landed more crosses into the area than any other player in the Premier League this season, yet nobody is there to put their head on the ball."
One of the problems is that our only form of attack is lumping in high crosses. I hear pundits like Ronnie Goodlass saying how important it is "to get your crosses in". Utter garbage.
Until we start to vary the attack, play the ball on the ground and through the middle rather than ponderously playing it out wide with a high ball in, until then we will continue to struggle.
Kevin is dead right - we have had big slices of luck this term Even our goal on Saturday shouldn't have stood.
But let me pick you up on one point, when you say "Leighton Baines has landed more crosses into the area than any other player in the Premier League this season, yet nobody is there to put their head on the ball."
One of the problems is that our only form of attack is lumping in high crosses. I hear pundits like Ronnie Goodlass saying how important it is "to get your crosses in". Utter garbage.
Until we start to vary the attack, play the ball on the ground and through the middle rather than ponderously playing it out wide with a high ball in, until then we will continue to struggle.
Kevin is dead right - we have had big slices of luck this term Even our goal on Saturday shouldn't have stood.
Ray Said
8 Posted 23/01/2012 at 17:14:49
8 Posted 23/01/2012 at 17:14:49
I have been following the blues since 1964 and this is the worst period since just before the Wimbledon game.
The stench of decay is all around the club- a fish rots from the head down.
There is no plan and the only light see we can see is the headlights from the next kick in the balls that the supporters will suffer.
The only leadership is of the Corporal Jones variety with Boys Pen Bill saying 'Don't Panic' and a fair number of supporters feeling like Private Laurie' We are doomed i tell you, doomed'.
I really fear for the club this season as we are better than Wigan but i haven't seen two other teams that we are better than and that makes me fear.
The stench of decay is all around the club- a fish rots from the head down.
There is no plan and the only light see we can see is the headlights from the next kick in the balls that the supporters will suffer.
The only leadership is of the Corporal Jones variety with Boys Pen Bill saying 'Don't Panic' and a fair number of supporters feeling like Private Laurie' We are doomed i tell you, doomed'.
I really fear for the club this season as we are better than Wigan but i haven't seen two other teams that we are better than and that makes me fear.
Tony J Williams
9 Posted 23/01/2012 at 17:26:50
9 Posted 23/01/2012 at 17:26:50
Ray, did you sleep through the 1997 season then?
Gavin Ramejkis
10 Posted 23/01/2012 at 17:26:21
10 Posted 23/01/2012 at 17:26:21
out of those games I'd say a point against Wigan if we are lucky, we need 16 points from the remaining 16, cant see it from our current weekly utter dross
Nick Entwistle
11 Posted 23/01/2012 at 17:25:40
11 Posted 23/01/2012 at 17:25:40
Hmmm, and they say its Moyes supporters who are blinkered. Convincing yourself we've lost, dear me.
Couldn't be bothered to read from then on. Not bothered to read another gutless supporter's ramble.
Couldn't be bothered to read from then on. Not bothered to read another gutless supporter's ramble.
Peter Laing
12 Posted 23/01/2012 at 17:25:03
12 Posted 23/01/2012 at 17:25:03
You sum up Scott in your article what I am feeling. I ventured back into Goodison for the first time in 3 months on Saturday and left with the feeling that we have gone backwards at an alarming rate since my last visit. Totally dismal and lacking any sembelance of spirit or fight which equates to me as you quite rightly predict - a relegation fight on our hands. My biggest worry though is that the current group of player's do not appear to have the heart or belly for a relegation fight and we are not too good to go down. Desperate times to be an Evertonian.
Keith Glazzard
13 Posted 23/01/2012 at 17:14:24
13 Posted 23/01/2012 at 17:14:24
I think we are already into crisis. Scott's assessment of the state of the bottom of the table and our upcoming fixtures should be ringing warning bells all over the place, but there is no sign of this in team selection or performance.
We can defend, and do so very well. Thank the lord we have Jags, Heitinga, Distin and the like. We would already be down without them.
Shots on target? We don't do that, do we. And how Moyes continues to start Saha when he never does his job is beyond belief. Bily would be a better striker - I'm not saying that he should be our striker, simply that almost anyone would be a better striker than 'King' Louis.
Nothing we say here is going to change anything and protesting about ownership and investment is pissing in the wind. If anyone wants to make a banner it just simply say 'This isn't good enough' - or similar.
We can defend, and do so very well. Thank the lord we have Jags, Heitinga, Distin and the like. We would already be down without them.
Shots on target? We don't do that, do we. And how Moyes continues to start Saha when he never does his job is beyond belief. Bily would be a better striker - I'm not saying that he should be our striker, simply that almost anyone would be a better striker than 'King' Louis.
Nothing we say here is going to change anything and protesting about ownership and investment is pissing in the wind. If anyone wants to make a banner it just simply say 'This isn't good enough' - or similar.
Gavin Ramejkis
14 Posted 23/01/2012 at 17:42:22
14 Posted 23/01/2012 at 17:42:22
Nick denial isn't a river in Egypt
Paper talk but I honestly wouldn't put it past old misery
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/sport-news/everton-fc/2012/01/23/david-moyes-considers-everton-fc-attacking-role-for-marouane-fellaini-55578-30177548/
Paper talk but I honestly wouldn't put it past old misery
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/sport-news/everton-fc/2012/01/23/david-moyes-considers-everton-fc-attacking-role-for-marouane-fellaini-55578-30177548/
Stephen Kenny
15 Posted 23/01/2012 at 17:31:47
15 Posted 23/01/2012 at 17:31:47
The whole club is shrouded in negativity at the moment and nobody is doing anything about it.
The manager could come out and do a load of interviews and really big up the young players coming through, Bill could do something to try and show he is looking to sell (publicly commissioning a specialist group?) and the players could get their heads out their arses and start doing the little things that gets a crowd going.
Nobody is bringing anything positive to see and the whole club, including us, is wallowing in self pity. Were in a bad spot but we've got the players to get us out this mess.
I know for a fact if Vellios and Mcaleny or Barkley were started up top against Fulham they would get every touch roared for them and they would respond by at the very minimum run their bollocks off for us. That alone would lift us.
People are overcritical about the crowd but we haven't had a single fucking thing to cheer all season at home. I can sense the crowd are desperate to get behind the side, they just need a spark.
A bit of youthful exuberance might bring it!
The manager could come out and do a load of interviews and really big up the young players coming through, Bill could do something to try and show he is looking to sell (publicly commissioning a specialist group?) and the players could get their heads out their arses and start doing the little things that gets a crowd going.
Nobody is bringing anything positive to see and the whole club, including us, is wallowing in self pity. Were in a bad spot but we've got the players to get us out this mess.
I know for a fact if Vellios and Mcaleny or Barkley were started up top against Fulham they would get every touch roared for them and they would respond by at the very minimum run their bollocks off for us. That alone would lift us.
People are overcritical about the crowd but we haven't had a single fucking thing to cheer all season at home. I can sense the crowd are desperate to get behind the side, they just need a spark.
A bit of youthful exuberance might bring it!
Stephen Kenny
16 Posted 23/01/2012 at 17:44:56
16 Posted 23/01/2012 at 17:44:56
Nick maybe a draw at home to Blackburn felt like a defeat?
Don't be so fucking arrogant, why comment if you can't be arsed to read.
Don't be so fucking arrogant, why comment if you can't be arsed to read.
Nick Entwistle
17 Posted 23/01/2012 at 17:53:55
17 Posted 23/01/2012 at 17:53:55
Yeah maybe it did feel like a defeat. Bollocks.
Barry Rathbone
18 Posted 23/01/2012 at 17:38:04
18 Posted 23/01/2012 at 17:38:04
I am a long term critic of Moyes but find it futile now, he is an ordinary man who won the lottery when he walked into Kenwrights office, now every utterance, line on his face and repetitive game tells you he's dead in the water but like anyone jammy enough to be paid millions he hangs on.
Similarly with Kenwright, he is a complete blagger not a Chairman in any real sense of the word a front man for omnipotent shareholders conniving a big payday.
But it's the fans that have turned me off, both Moyes and Kenwright STILL have plenty of believers and the complacency of some regarding the possibility of relegation is remarkable given performances todate and fixtures due.
To quote an over used phrase on this site - we're getting what we wished for.
Similarly with Kenwright, he is a complete blagger not a Chairman in any real sense of the word a front man for omnipotent shareholders conniving a big payday.
But it's the fans that have turned me off, both Moyes and Kenwright STILL have plenty of believers and the complacency of some regarding the possibility of relegation is remarkable given performances todate and fixtures due.
To quote an over used phrase on this site - we're getting what we wished for.
Ray Said
19 Posted 23/01/2012 at 18:36:30
19 Posted 23/01/2012 at 18:36:30
Tony (147). I didnt sleep through 97 season. I always had a degree of confidence that we would stay up. I don't feel any confidence at present. Lets just hope that a couple of deals can be done to liven the place up.
Ray Robinson
20 Posted 23/01/2012 at 19:13:36
20 Posted 23/01/2012 at 19:13:36
Scott, I believe that there is a very real possibility of relegation this year, so I share your concern. People seem complacent because we are 8 points above the releagtion places but there is usually one team that drops like a stone at the end of the season. Hopefully, it won't ge us but how do you gain enough points if you don't score enough goals?
The depressing thing about the situation is that it is not just a unique set of circumstances conspiring against us - it was entirely predictable at the end of last season.
The depressing thing about the situation is that it is not just a unique set of circumstances conspiring against us - it was entirely predictable at the end of last season.
Andy Crooks
21 Posted 23/01/2012 at 19:28:40
21 Posted 23/01/2012 at 19:28:40
Can any contributor to this site feel confident that we are capable of beating any side in the premier league. I'd take 43 points and end the season right now. We are in a relegation battle and I fear what a confidence sapping defeat at Wigan would do to us.Stick with Moyes or go for broke? Kenwright will stick with Moyes. Let him be right.
Peter Fearon
22 Posted 23/01/2012 at 19:35:34
22 Posted 23/01/2012 at 19:35:34
Absolutely right, Scott. And it did feel like a defeat even though it was a point. Just a couple of weeks ago I would have said you were being overly pessimistic because it looked like we were on course for 45points. Now, when you take into account a daunting few games ahead, we look more likely to take 39 points. I think we will survive but it will be a battle.
Joe McMahon
23 Posted 23/01/2012 at 19:56:11
23 Posted 23/01/2012 at 19:56:11
Many people say we are becoming another Leeds United, but they did make the semis of the Champions League at least. Moyes football would never bring that, even if he was at Spurs. It's amazing that such a wonderful manager, with his LMA awards has never been poached by a supposed big club during these 10 years. There must be a reason why. I'd even rather have Holloway, Moyes would have never got Blackpool up in the first place.
Phil Rodgers
24 Posted 23/01/2012 at 20:04:52
24 Posted 23/01/2012 at 20:04:52
I am always concerned when we don't get 3 points against the lesser sides because we rarely beat the better teams. But this season I am terrified. Every time I have seen blackburn this season they have given everything even though they have lost. I do not see the desire in our players at all and that is down to the manager. It's astonishing that we have picked up as many points as we have because we have played so poor. Looking at the fixtures makes me very nervous.
Jon Cox
25 Posted 23/01/2012 at 19:40:10
25 Posted 23/01/2012 at 19:40:10
Agree with your post Scott, especially the event horizon metaphor.
To add to that it will be Moyes's "Singularity" of purpose that will do for us this season.
This might be worth looking at. Lets check out what the bottom three and Blackburn do in their next three games compared to us.
My money is on Blackburn overtaking us in the league.
We are really in the depths of Mordor.... :-(
To add to that it will be Moyes's "Singularity" of purpose that will do for us this season.
This might be worth looking at. Lets check out what the bottom three and Blackburn do in their next three games compared to us.
My money is on Blackburn overtaking us in the league.
We are really in the depths of Mordor.... :-(
Dick Fearon
26 Posted 23/01/2012 at 19:36:06
26 Posted 23/01/2012 at 19:36:06
A Winter of discontent indeed, and the one before and the one before that and the one before that etc etc.
Over the years we have not had much ammunition to defend with against our neighbors. It is pitiful and shameful that our few moments of happiness result when that have an occasional lot slip up and not from our own success.
I was one of the few who first raised concerns about Moyes obsession with defence.
We few we increasingly more frantic few suffered a multitude of slings and arrows from believers of the so called messiah.
Ever so slowly it has dawned on the faithful that they have been and are still being conned.
What they have endured is the opposite of what football is all about.
What began as a trickle of complaints from a few dissidents is rapidly turning into a Sunami.
Over the years we have not had much ammunition to defend with against our neighbors. It is pitiful and shameful that our few moments of happiness result when that have an occasional lot slip up and not from our own success.
I was one of the few who first raised concerns about Moyes obsession with defence.
We few we increasingly more frantic few suffered a multitude of slings and arrows from believers of the so called messiah.
Ever so slowly it has dawned on the faithful that they have been and are still being conned.
What they have endured is the opposite of what football is all about.
What began as a trickle of complaints from a few dissidents is rapidly turning into a Sunami.
Colin Grierson
27 Posted 23/01/2012 at 20:28:22
27 Posted 23/01/2012 at 20:28:22
Absolutely bang on the money!
Although we are nicking the odd point here and there, we are playing worse than ANY other team in the division. I can see no sign of an improvement and therefore can only assume that this is our last season in the Prem for a while. We are not even going to go down fighting.
Any decent players will want out at the end of the season.
We are on the brink at the moment and its down to Moyes and his singularly turgid brand of football.
I always used to think we had quite a knowledgeable following but to keep backing Moyes and acting as his apologists, the majority, if it still is one, is going to get their just desserts. Championship and beyond...
Although we are nicking the odd point here and there, we are playing worse than ANY other team in the division. I can see no sign of an improvement and therefore can only assume that this is our last season in the Prem for a while. We are not even going to go down fighting.
Any decent players will want out at the end of the season.
We are on the brink at the moment and its down to Moyes and his singularly turgid brand of football.
I always used to think we had quite a knowledgeable following but to keep backing Moyes and acting as his apologists, the majority, if it still is one, is going to get their just desserts. Championship and beyond...
Jon Cox
28 Posted 23/01/2012 at 21:11:47
28 Posted 23/01/2012 at 21:11:47
If Moyes had any sense then the first thing he would do is print off all the comments of this thread. Then,
he would blow them up (A3) and paste them on the changing room walls.
If, and it's a big if, he had any gonads he'd say "Read this you overpaid C**nts"
But why we should ever have to do his "Overpaid" job for him fuck knows.
Time is of the essence Davey and,
Our season is starting to look like a Hollywood disaster movie with the one exception,
It doesn't end happily ever after !!
he would blow them up (A3) and paste them on the changing room walls.
If, and it's a big if, he had any gonads he'd say "Read this you overpaid C**nts"
But why we should ever have to do his "Overpaid" job for him fuck knows.
Time is of the essence Davey and,
Our season is starting to look like a Hollywood disaster movie with the one exception,
It doesn't end happily ever after !!
Ste Traverse
29 Posted 23/01/2012 at 21:24:46
29 Posted 23/01/2012 at 21:24:46
Can't argue with the OP. He's spot on.
Still we have fans blindly defending Moyes and Kenwright. What will it take for these people to wake up? Relegation? Administration?
I honestly believe should either happen they would find someone else to blame. Probably the Blue Union.
To some bewildered Blues fans, Moyes and Kenshite are Everton gods who can do no wrong.
Still we have fans blindly defending Moyes and Kenwright. What will it take for these people to wake up? Relegation? Administration?
I honestly believe should either happen they would find someone else to blame. Probably the Blue Union.
To some bewildered Blues fans, Moyes and Kenshite are Everton gods who can do no wrong.
Stephen Leary
30 Posted 23/01/2012 at 21:07:16
30 Posted 23/01/2012 at 21:07:16
Spot on Scott, its becomming harder and harder to go to Goodison now, especially from Northern Ireland were a flight costs me 60quid taxis are 30 quid and 30 quid match ticket, i try to go at least 9 times a season and my missus was saying about getting me a season ticket again next season but tbh, if everything stays the same at our club i don't think ill want one.
Kenwright is the bigger problem of course he is, him Earl, Green etc the puppets as i call them need to reduce their ridiculous asking price, and sell the club, however i am with the majority i feel now that changing the manager may help us now in the short term just to breathe some life back into the club.
Moyes has lost the plot, when i seen the line-up on saturday i knew we wouldn't win infact i thought we would lose and if it wern't for the ref we would have, playing anichebe wide fucking left? Saha who i always thought was shite and after years of saying it to my mates and fellow match goers maybe im being proved right, Cahill can't cut it no more Felliani is being played wrong and Gibson won't do anything that we already have at the club.
I also find it funny how he bleats about money but his purchases have accounted for some of our troubles, a 17mill pound hit loss on Yakubu and Billy as the fee for Billy i believe is now 2.5 mill, for a mclub like us who need every penny moyes needs to take a look at himself too. I wouldn't trust him with another big purchase as none have worked out, Felliani has shown some potential but nothing to make me think he is worth what we paid. Looking at them next seven fixtures im just thankful for the luck we have had this season or i really do think we would be in real real trouble, its time for a change now!!
Kenwright is the bigger problem of course he is, him Earl, Green etc the puppets as i call them need to reduce their ridiculous asking price, and sell the club, however i am with the majority i feel now that changing the manager may help us now in the short term just to breathe some life back into the club.
Moyes has lost the plot, when i seen the line-up on saturday i knew we wouldn't win infact i thought we would lose and if it wern't for the ref we would have, playing anichebe wide fucking left? Saha who i always thought was shite and after years of saying it to my mates and fellow match goers maybe im being proved right, Cahill can't cut it no more Felliani is being played wrong and Gibson won't do anything that we already have at the club.
I also find it funny how he bleats about money but his purchases have accounted for some of our troubles, a 17mill pound hit loss on Yakubu and Billy as the fee for Billy i believe is now 2.5 mill, for a mclub like us who need every penny moyes needs to take a look at himself too. I wouldn't trust him with another big purchase as none have worked out, Felliani has shown some potential but nothing to make me think he is worth what we paid. Looking at them next seven fixtures im just thankful for the luck we have had this season or i really do think we would be in real real trouble, its time for a change now!!
Colin Prendergast
31 Posted 23/01/2012 at 23:05:17
31 Posted 23/01/2012 at 23:05:17
Kevin #098 wasn't my brother was it?! he's been going home for 30 years and all over the world for the last 20 including pre-season. I saw him Sunday and he sounded like he'd given up. I told him that this club's so pathetically run they wouldn't even notice it.
Peter Barry
32 Posted 24/01/2012 at 04:35:00
32 Posted 24/01/2012 at 04:35:00
How telling that only one Moyesophile, Nick Entwistle ,has so far posted on this thread. But even he could not offer or think of any defense for Dire Dour Davey.
Dave Lynch
33 Posted 24/01/2012 at 09:04:48
33 Posted 24/01/2012 at 09:04:48
Look lads.
If he was sacked tommorow who would take the job ?
Reid- Not up to it as his past record proves.
Megson- Fucking clueless.
Bruce- See Megson.
The problem lies in the fact that Moyes has made a rod for the clubs back, no manager with any sense of ambition would take the job under the constraints Moyes has worked under and been party too by the way.
I don't think we will go down but as soon as the season ends he should be shown the door pronto. If he had any balls or sense of humility he would resign.
If he was sacked tommorow who would take the job ?
Reid- Not up to it as his past record proves.
Megson- Fucking clueless.
Bruce- See Megson.
The problem lies in the fact that Moyes has made a rod for the clubs back, no manager with any sense of ambition would take the job under the constraints Moyes has worked under and been party too by the way.
I don't think we will go down but as soon as the season ends he should be shown the door pronto. If he had any balls or sense of humility he would resign.
Peter Laing
34 Posted 24/01/2012 at 09:32:02
34 Posted 24/01/2012 at 09:32:02
Dave, like every spent force of a dictatorship, we are being forced to suffer and share the pain of failure.
Kenwright reminded me off Harold Shipman in that infamous TV clip where he is confronted by the press when he was questioned by the Blue Union lads. He knows he is bang to rights and to blame for our current predicament, all he could offer up was a snide "your Blue Union have betrayed this club" in the face of open and honest questions.
Until Kenwright is removed then I would not expect Moyes to be going anywhere. The silence from the Club as they say is deafening, Scott quite rightly predicts a mammoth couple of months ahead starting with Fulham on Friday night, we are now heading folks for what is known as squeeky arse time.
Kenwright reminded me off Harold Shipman in that infamous TV clip where he is confronted by the press when he was questioned by the Blue Union lads. He knows he is bang to rights and to blame for our current predicament, all he could offer up was a snide "your Blue Union have betrayed this club" in the face of open and honest questions.
Until Kenwright is removed then I would not expect Moyes to be going anywhere. The silence from the Club as they say is deafening, Scott quite rightly predicts a mammoth couple of months ahead starting with Fulham on Friday night, we are now heading folks for what is known as squeeky arse time.
Kevin Hudson
35 Posted 24/01/2012 at 12:05:26
35 Posted 24/01/2012 at 12:05:26
Whilst not even the ?Moyesophiles,? (nb: Peter Barry?s latest attempt at generating a popular slogan) are happy to see the team lying 14th; this navel-gazing article, and subsequently morbid responses, paint a Stygian, worst-case scenario, which remains theoretical at best.
Naturally, I have one or two quibbles, admittedly boring myself, and undoubtedly others, courtesy of an equally repetitive counter-argument (!)
Apparently, all the sides below us ?look hungrier than we do.? I repeat, they are BELOW us, but somehow look ?hungrier.? ? Go figure that one out.
Whilst Saturday?s apparent ?defeat,? was a difficult watch, fought against the backdrop of a noticeably anxious Goodison Park, the facts indicate that not only did Blackburn have less possession than us, but they also managed fewer goal attempts than we did. Yet, according to Scot, ?they completely out-played us.?
Scot, you also believe that it is laughable people regard Moyes as one of the best managers in the league. So I?ll brush his 10 year record under the carpet, shall I?
As you point out, there are undoubtedly some superior managers around, (eg; Wenger & Ferguson for starters) but I would love to see a list of EXACTLY how many more managers you, or anyone else, regard as being superior to Moyes, with corroborative evidence to support it.
I do not know anyone who ?worships,? Moyes, so can we substitute that for the word ?respect,? please? In the entire history of the Premier League, Everton have finished in the top eight, 8 times. Seven of these have been at DM?s hands. Scot disparagingly scoffs at seventh, but (absent-mindedly..?) omits to acknowledge that we?ve finished higher than seventh 4 times during this tenure.
Transparently, the continuation on, or improvement of this is becoming increasingly difficult, due in part, to diminishing resources. This ?absence of creativity,? and the enforced bargain-basement recruitments, is for me, the dominant reason why.
I also feel that to lump Kenwright supporters with Moyes?s defenders is misrepresentative, as a HUGE number want Bill out, even if they don?t universally subscribe to the amateurish tactics of the fringe BU group.
I have a personal appreciation for the astronomical analogies that Scot & Jon allude to; but I would dispute the fear-mongering view that we?ll either get relegated, (if not this year, then DEFINITLY next year, the MOB reliably informs us) or ultimately go supernova in Leeds United fashion. I just don't see that happening..
Naturally, I have one or two quibbles, admittedly boring myself, and undoubtedly others, courtesy of an equally repetitive counter-argument (!)
Apparently, all the sides below us ?look hungrier than we do.? I repeat, they are BELOW us, but somehow look ?hungrier.? ? Go figure that one out.
Whilst Saturday?s apparent ?defeat,? was a difficult watch, fought against the backdrop of a noticeably anxious Goodison Park, the facts indicate that not only did Blackburn have less possession than us, but they also managed fewer goal attempts than we did. Yet, according to Scot, ?they completely out-played us.?
Scot, you also believe that it is laughable people regard Moyes as one of the best managers in the league. So I?ll brush his 10 year record under the carpet, shall I?
As you point out, there are undoubtedly some superior managers around, (eg; Wenger & Ferguson for starters) but I would love to see a list of EXACTLY how many more managers you, or anyone else, regard as being superior to Moyes, with corroborative evidence to support it.
I do not know anyone who ?worships,? Moyes, so can we substitute that for the word ?respect,? please? In the entire history of the Premier League, Everton have finished in the top eight, 8 times. Seven of these have been at DM?s hands. Scot disparagingly scoffs at seventh, but (absent-mindedly..?) omits to acknowledge that we?ve finished higher than seventh 4 times during this tenure.
Transparently, the continuation on, or improvement of this is becoming increasingly difficult, due in part, to diminishing resources. This ?absence of creativity,? and the enforced bargain-basement recruitments, is for me, the dominant reason why.
I also feel that to lump Kenwright supporters with Moyes?s defenders is misrepresentative, as a HUGE number want Bill out, even if they don?t universally subscribe to the amateurish tactics of the fringe BU group.
I have a personal appreciation for the astronomical analogies that Scot & Jon allude to; but I would dispute the fear-mongering view that we?ll either get relegated, (if not this year, then DEFINITLY next year, the MOB reliably informs us) or ultimately go supernova in Leeds United fashion. I just don't see that happening..
Brian Denton
36 Posted 24/01/2012 at 12:28:27
36 Posted 24/01/2012 at 12:28:27
Sound post, Kevin - I don't necessarily agree with it, but well argued.
Paul Johnson
37 Posted 24/01/2012 at 12:14:06
37 Posted 24/01/2012 at 12:14:06
Kevin I seriously do wish I had half the enthusiasm you maintain no matter what our situation.
I know you support Moyes and this is admirable as he has given this club a level playing field and has in my view had us competing as best we can under the restricted stewardship of Kenwright. surely somewhere under that rock solid belief you have must be a hint of fear. I am not negative by nature and my job certainly doesnt allow me to be either but I am being totally honest and this is not doom mongering, i am shitting myself more than ever that we will be relegated.
This feeling is not down to the quality of the players but to the whole malaise that has spread across the club. For this I blame Kenwright but I am sorry Kevin Moyes has had a part to play in the situation we find ourselves in. I know I am an "armchair fan" 5000 miles away but you still pick the vibes up around the stadium and on TV and the atmosphere or lack of it is frightening and Moyes is the guy responsible for getting the fans up on their feet. He decides the tactics and picks the team. I am not picking an argument here Kevin I am just wondering whether or not you would bet your mortgage on us staying up. Right now I wouldnt as I see all the games and we are the worse team in the league after Wigan on current form and that is what is frightening me. This has in our previous years been the strongest point in the season, not now.
So would you gamble Kevin?????
I know you support Moyes and this is admirable as he has given this club a level playing field and has in my view had us competing as best we can under the restricted stewardship of Kenwright. surely somewhere under that rock solid belief you have must be a hint of fear. I am not negative by nature and my job certainly doesnt allow me to be either but I am being totally honest and this is not doom mongering, i am shitting myself more than ever that we will be relegated.
This feeling is not down to the quality of the players but to the whole malaise that has spread across the club. For this I blame Kenwright but I am sorry Kevin Moyes has had a part to play in the situation we find ourselves in. I know I am an "armchair fan" 5000 miles away but you still pick the vibes up around the stadium and on TV and the atmosphere or lack of it is frightening and Moyes is the guy responsible for getting the fans up on their feet. He decides the tactics and picks the team. I am not picking an argument here Kevin I am just wondering whether or not you would bet your mortgage on us staying up. Right now I wouldnt as I see all the games and we are the worse team in the league after Wigan on current form and that is what is frightening me. This has in our previous years been the strongest point in the season, not now.
So would you gamble Kevin?????
Stephen Kenny
38 Posted 24/01/2012 at 12:14:48
38 Posted 24/01/2012 at 12:14:48
Kevin,
Hungrier - Perhaps the reality of the situation has dawned on them and they are now picking up points and putting performances in. Blackburn, Bolton etc??? Can the same be said of us?
The facts may indicate less possession and shots on target, but as you well know the quality of that possession and the shots that are counted can vary wildly. Blackburn hit the woodwork and Howard had several important saves to make. The same cannot be said of our play. Almost every match report said we were roundly outplayed, even Ken's which is recognized as a positive, balanced review.
One of the best in the league???..... A difficult one to judge that. If we choose to be simple and go off his average finish you could say he's sixth best? If you say he's punched above his weight maybe higher. If you go from the managers in the PL now who have won major honours or reached major finals he's an also ran.
Maybe you don't worship him Kevin but you certainly go out your way to defend his name and will even construct arguments that go so far against the grain I.e. we weren't outplayed Saturday, that I wonder if your support for Everton is dwarfed by your determination to back Moyes.
The "absence of creativity" is down to a straight choice to sell a player who was recognized as our most creative, opposed to the player recognized as our most solid defensively. This clearly indicates where our priorities, sorry his priorities lie. If you believe our resources available are similar to the clubs we are now competing with then I think your missing a beat.
The MOB, as you lazily band a whole host of separate opinions, are not in the main predicting relegation. A relegation fight is looking on the cards at this point but I doubt many see us going down. Only the most ardent Moyes supporter will ignore the downward spiral we are on. The state of the club, coupled with Kenwrights leadership aided and abetted by Moyes, does have an inevitable conclusion that unless something fundamental changes will see us struggle to maintain our status.
Hungrier - Perhaps the reality of the situation has dawned on them and they are now picking up points and putting performances in. Blackburn, Bolton etc??? Can the same be said of us?
The facts may indicate less possession and shots on target, but as you well know the quality of that possession and the shots that are counted can vary wildly. Blackburn hit the woodwork and Howard had several important saves to make. The same cannot be said of our play. Almost every match report said we were roundly outplayed, even Ken's which is recognized as a positive, balanced review.
One of the best in the league???..... A difficult one to judge that. If we choose to be simple and go off his average finish you could say he's sixth best? If you say he's punched above his weight maybe higher. If you go from the managers in the PL now who have won major honours or reached major finals he's an also ran.
Maybe you don't worship him Kevin but you certainly go out your way to defend his name and will even construct arguments that go so far against the grain I.e. we weren't outplayed Saturday, that I wonder if your support for Everton is dwarfed by your determination to back Moyes.
The "absence of creativity" is down to a straight choice to sell a player who was recognized as our most creative, opposed to the player recognized as our most solid defensively. This clearly indicates where our priorities, sorry his priorities lie. If you believe our resources available are similar to the clubs we are now competing with then I think your missing a beat.
The MOB, as you lazily band a whole host of separate opinions, are not in the main predicting relegation. A relegation fight is looking on the cards at this point but I doubt many see us going down. Only the most ardent Moyes supporter will ignore the downward spiral we are on. The state of the club, coupled with Kenwrights leadership aided and abetted by Moyes, does have an inevitable conclusion that unless something fundamental changes will see us struggle to maintain our status.
Andrew Ellams
39 Posted 24/01/2012 at 12:37:51
39 Posted 24/01/2012 at 12:37:51
I think Wigan are shot and will go down this year, it's not looking good for Wolves either. But as for the 3rd spot, it could be one from about six right now.
To be honest I think Everton will keeping chipping away towards the magic 40 points and just manage to survive this year, but I am already very worried about next season. Some of these youngsters could be the backbone of our squad if many senior players decide they can do better.
To be honest I think Everton will keeping chipping away towards the magic 40 points and just manage to survive this year, but I am already very worried about next season. Some of these youngsters could be the backbone of our squad if many senior players decide they can do better.
Dave Wilson
40 Posted 24/01/2012 at 12:06:50
40 Posted 24/01/2012 at 12:06:50
Scot
Last week you penned an article littered with inaccuracies, such as
"Moyes has presided over the first trophy-less decade since the fifties". The
Tottenham team cost less than Everton`s.
Moyes said he was "satisfied with a defeat" .
We didnt fall for it then and wont now.
I`ll skip the obvious clanger you dropped in the opening sentence of this article as I think your probably embarressed enough.
However. As with everything else you`ve said, I fully expect your prediction that we will be relegated this year, to be wrong.
Your article will go down well with the desperate to be miserable and those whose vocabulary seems to consist entirely of words begining with D, but you wont find any of them racing to the bookies to place their bets - even though 1 will STILL get you 25.
Regardless of what YOU may think of Moyes. I think he knows a sinking ship when he see`s one. so here`s a prediction for you.
When Moyes steers Evertion for safety he`ll do one. You and the D people will be beside yoursleves. You`ll dance around your living rooms sInging "Ding Dong Da Witch is Dead" then you`ll probably break into a few barrs of Zcars -"Da Da Da,Da Da Da Da Da"
Slowly it will dawn on them, They were Denied the satifaction of Ditching Dastardly, Dispicable Dave . . Devious Dave will be the on who has Done the Dumping !
The next morning the sounds of penny`s dropping will be heared from Birkenhead to Bali. Moyes will be gone but the Iceberg Lyndon Lloyd has spoken about will STILL be dead ahead.
"SHHHHHHHHHIIIIIIIIIT ! ! !" The D people will say . . "Was that really the wrong tree we`ve spent years barking up"
Last week you penned an article littered with inaccuracies, such as
"Moyes has presided over the first trophy-less decade since the fifties". The
Tottenham team cost less than Everton`s.
Moyes said he was "satisfied with a defeat" .
We didnt fall for it then and wont now.
I`ll skip the obvious clanger you dropped in the opening sentence of this article as I think your probably embarressed enough.
However. As with everything else you`ve said, I fully expect your prediction that we will be relegated this year, to be wrong.
Your article will go down well with the desperate to be miserable and those whose vocabulary seems to consist entirely of words begining with D, but you wont find any of them racing to the bookies to place their bets - even though 1 will STILL get you 25.
Regardless of what YOU may think of Moyes. I think he knows a sinking ship when he see`s one. so here`s a prediction for you.
When Moyes steers Evertion for safety he`ll do one. You and the D people will be beside yoursleves. You`ll dance around your living rooms sInging "Ding Dong Da Witch is Dead" then you`ll probably break into a few barrs of Zcars -"Da Da Da,Da Da Da Da Da"
Slowly it will dawn on them, They were Denied the satifaction of Ditching Dastardly, Dispicable Dave . . Devious Dave will be the on who has Done the Dumping !
The next morning the sounds of penny`s dropping will be heared from Birkenhead to Bali. Moyes will be gone but the Iceberg Lyndon Lloyd has spoken about will STILL be dead ahead.
"SHHHHHHHHHIIIIIIIIIT ! ! !" The D people will say . . "Was that really the wrong tree we`ve spent years barking up"
Phil Bellis
41 Posted 24/01/2012 at 13:13:55
41 Posted 24/01/2012 at 13:13:55
Dave
However you look at it, we are a bloody awful side playing predictable, clueless football
No leaders on the pitch and now, sadly, none off it
No-one on the bench to give us hope of turning a game, no-one on the field to get us out of our seats
It's times like this I realise how much this club and it's longevity in the top flight means to me, I pray we get the 40 points
Doddy and I were close with our by-Christmas points estimates (me, miseable git, 19, super-optimistis Richard, 20)
It shows how bad things are are when Doddy goes AWAOL rather than "confidently" predicting with "absolute faith"
It seems to me those fans remaining optimistic are basing their belief on hope and heart rather rather than the cold, hard reality
of what we are watching
However you look at it, we are a bloody awful side playing predictable, clueless football
No leaders on the pitch and now, sadly, none off it
No-one on the bench to give us hope of turning a game, no-one on the field to get us out of our seats
It's times like this I realise how much this club and it's longevity in the top flight means to me, I pray we get the 40 points
Doddy and I were close with our by-Christmas points estimates (me, miseable git, 19, super-optimistis Richard, 20)
It shows how bad things are are when Doddy goes AWAOL rather than "confidently" predicting with "absolute faith"
It seems to me those fans remaining optimistic are basing their belief on hope and heart rather rather than the cold, hard reality
of what we are watching
Tony McNulty
42 Posted 24/01/2012 at 13:20:38
42 Posted 24/01/2012 at 13:20:38
Dave Wilson:
I think you might be on to something (as opposed to being on something). I agree we won?t be relegated and I also wonder whether Moyes might not ?do one?. From his point of view, the lack of financial support he has had will have made him realise that he can go no further at GP, only more of the same or terminal decline.
In addition, he would only need to look at some of the threads on here to see how some fans now feel about him. (I sometimes wonder whether any of the players or staff actually do sign on to Toffeeweb and peruse these threads ? they can?t be a nice read).
Dave Lynch re. a replacement.
I am not sure he would be that good in a dogfight (which is what we would be in if Moyes were to go now) but for a breath of fresh air at the start of a season I would consider Di Canio. He: already has a relationship of sorts with our crowd after refused to score that time; is young and enthusiastic as was Moysie when he first arrived; is instinctively an attacker and would get the lads trying to play football.
I think you might be on to something (as opposed to being on something). I agree we won?t be relegated and I also wonder whether Moyes might not ?do one?. From his point of view, the lack of financial support he has had will have made him realise that he can go no further at GP, only more of the same or terminal decline.
In addition, he would only need to look at some of the threads on here to see how some fans now feel about him. (I sometimes wonder whether any of the players or staff actually do sign on to Toffeeweb and peruse these threads ? they can?t be a nice read).
Dave Lynch re. a replacement.
I am not sure he would be that good in a dogfight (which is what we would be in if Moyes were to go now) but for a breath of fresh air at the start of a season I would consider Di Canio. He: already has a relationship of sorts with our crowd after refused to score that time; is young and enthusiastic as was Moysie when he first arrived; is instinctively an attacker and would get the lads trying to play football.
Steve Guy
43 Posted 24/01/2012 at 13:31:13
43 Posted 24/01/2012 at 13:31:13
Kenwright is the only reason DM is still in a job.
The football on the pitch would disgrace a Division two side.
The points dropped through our poor defending and lack of firepower (as opposed to the opposition's abilities) is embarassing (Howard / Cahill's clanger on Saturday as the latest example).
Moyes' bleating (or pleading, take your pick) poverty and "talking down" our chances before a ball has even been kicked is shameful and de-motivating to both players and crowd.
The lack of passion shown by both him and his players is everything Everton Football Club is NOT about. As is the seeming inability to pass to a team mate with any meaningful intent.
Moyes needs to stop feeling sorry for himself. He knew what he was doing presumably when he signed up for another 5 years. He needs to start rallying both his players and the supporters.
This is Everton for Chrissake and they should realise just how lucky and priveleged they are to play for this great institution and work a damn sight harder to make sure we stay were we belong.
The football on the pitch would disgrace a Division two side.
The points dropped through our poor defending and lack of firepower (as opposed to the opposition's abilities) is embarassing (Howard / Cahill's clanger on Saturday as the latest example).
Moyes' bleating (or pleading, take your pick) poverty and "talking down" our chances before a ball has even been kicked is shameful and de-motivating to both players and crowd.
The lack of passion shown by both him and his players is everything Everton Football Club is NOT about. As is the seeming inability to pass to a team mate with any meaningful intent.
Moyes needs to stop feeling sorry for himself. He knew what he was doing presumably when he signed up for another 5 years. He needs to start rallying both his players and the supporters.
This is Everton for Chrissake and they should realise just how lucky and priveleged they are to play for this great institution and work a damn sight harder to make sure we stay were we belong.
Kevin Hudson
44 Posted 24/01/2012 at 13:43:55
44 Posted 24/01/2012 at 13:43:55
First up, apologies to Scott for repeatedly mis-spelling his name.
Paul Johnson,
You speak of fear, malaise & fright. I'm not disputing the fact that 14th place is unacceptable to every Evertonian, but my backing of Moyes is borne out of cold, hard facts. I agree with you on the restrictive stewardship of Kenwright though, but Moyes has to cut his cloth accordingly. Bottom line: He has earned my trust.
I would add that with my missus currently carrying our first child, I wouldn't gamble my mortgage on anything :)
Stephen Kenny,
Several bones of contention with your post.
First up, you pass off this fictitious account of Saturday's game:
"Blackburn hit the woodwork and Howard had several important saves to make. The same cannot be said of our play." - as fact.
You omitted the goal line scramble, the Anichebe miss, the saves made by Robinson, and Duffy's header that cannoned off the crossbar.
Any reason for this selective amnesia..?
Nobody's claiming it was a vintage performance by us, Blackburn played to, and exploited, the anxiety of the Old Lady, just as we did at Villa Park.
You wonder if my "support for Everton is dwarfed by a determination to back Moyes." I previously got called-out on this, and listed about a dozen reasons why I don't regard him as infallible. If you check the "Moyes The Constantly Curious," thread, you'll find that your 'wonderings,' don't stack-up at all. Ultimately, I trust him.
You state that I lazily utilise the term' MOB,' and fail to take into account (some apparent) plurality, so let's explore this..
The MOB, or "Moyes Out Brigade," represents a definitively singular line of thought. There may be variegated reasons for it, but the premise is unique.
Now, I'm sure there are many Moyes critics who don't call for his resignation, and I count myself as being among them. But in this instance, I am specifically referring to those who FACTUALLY want Moyes to leave the club.
Using the term MOB, therefore isn't lazy, it is absolutely on the money.
In a bizarre twist, you claim that the predictions of relegation are not that many... so I have to ask:
Have you read ToffeeWeb this season..?! Have you read the multiple threads on display right now..? Have you read THIS thread..? There are DOZENS of people, throughout ToffeeWeb predicting relegation, right now, as they were, by the way, just 6 games into the season..
YOU yourself write: "a relegation fight is looking on the cards," and, " unless something fundamental changes will struggle to maintain our status."
I'm sorry, but you are all over the shop here, Stephen.
Paul Johnson,
You speak of fear, malaise & fright. I'm not disputing the fact that 14th place is unacceptable to every Evertonian, but my backing of Moyes is borne out of cold, hard facts. I agree with you on the restrictive stewardship of Kenwright though, but Moyes has to cut his cloth accordingly. Bottom line: He has earned my trust.
I would add that with my missus currently carrying our first child, I wouldn't gamble my mortgage on anything :)
Stephen Kenny,
Several bones of contention with your post.
First up, you pass off this fictitious account of Saturday's game:
"Blackburn hit the woodwork and Howard had several important saves to make. The same cannot be said of our play." - as fact.
You omitted the goal line scramble, the Anichebe miss, the saves made by Robinson, and Duffy's header that cannoned off the crossbar.
Any reason for this selective amnesia..?
Nobody's claiming it was a vintage performance by us, Blackburn played to, and exploited, the anxiety of the Old Lady, just as we did at Villa Park.
You wonder if my "support for Everton is dwarfed by a determination to back Moyes." I previously got called-out on this, and listed about a dozen reasons why I don't regard him as infallible. If you check the "Moyes The Constantly Curious," thread, you'll find that your 'wonderings,' don't stack-up at all. Ultimately, I trust him.
You state that I lazily utilise the term' MOB,' and fail to take into account (some apparent) plurality, so let's explore this..
The MOB, or "Moyes Out Brigade," represents a definitively singular line of thought. There may be variegated reasons for it, but the premise is unique.
Now, I'm sure there are many Moyes critics who don't call for his resignation, and I count myself as being among them. But in this instance, I am specifically referring to those who FACTUALLY want Moyes to leave the club.
Using the term MOB, therefore isn't lazy, it is absolutely on the money.
In a bizarre twist, you claim that the predictions of relegation are not that many... so I have to ask:
Have you read ToffeeWeb this season..?! Have you read the multiple threads on display right now..? Have you read THIS thread..? There are DOZENS of people, throughout ToffeeWeb predicting relegation, right now, as they were, by the way, just 6 games into the season..
YOU yourself write: "a relegation fight is looking on the cards," and, " unless something fundamental changes will struggle to maintain our status."
I'm sorry, but you are all over the shop here, Stephen.
Barry Rathbone
45 Posted 24/01/2012 at 14:12:11
45 Posted 24/01/2012 at 14:12:11
Dave wilson
no prediction that, nailed on moyes will jump ship leaving whoever to clear up 10 yrs of "progress".
If we go down with a new manager many won't Forget the moyes part in supporting kenwrights ice berg maker.
no prediction that, nailed on moyes will jump ship leaving whoever to clear up 10 yrs of "progress".
If we go down with a new manager many won't Forget the moyes part in supporting kenwrights ice berg maker.
Dave Wilson
46 Posted 24/01/2012 at 14:07:18
46 Posted 24/01/2012 at 14:07:18
Ah now Phil thats out of order.
Why cant you make a load of shite up like "we played with 14 defenders" or Moyes deliberately sold Pienaar for next to fuck all.
If your going to fight dirty with the truth. These debates will be dead in a week
Why cant you make a load of shite up like "we played with 14 defenders" or Moyes deliberately sold Pienaar for next to fuck all.
If your going to fight dirty with the truth. These debates will be dead in a week
Dave Wilson
47 Posted 24/01/2012 at 14:37:57
47 Posted 24/01/2012 at 14:37:57
Barry
I believe there are too many holes in our ship. If we dont get a new owner we WILL go down with or without Davey Moyes - although I believe he can buy us a couple more seasons.
Onr thing is certain though, all these people who claim Moyes has been "compliant" will be in for a very big disapointment if they think their new "super coach" is going to come out and call Kenwright a gobshite after every match.
He`ll probably take the Moyes approach - If you dont know already, you dont deserve to be told
I believe there are too many holes in our ship. If we dont get a new owner we WILL go down with or without Davey Moyes - although I believe he can buy us a couple more seasons.
Onr thing is certain though, all these people who claim Moyes has been "compliant" will be in for a very big disapointment if they think their new "super coach" is going to come out and call Kenwright a gobshite after every match.
He`ll probably take the Moyes approach - If you dont know already, you dont deserve to be told
Roman Sidey
48 Posted 24/01/2012 at 14:40:04
48 Posted 24/01/2012 at 14:40:04
Kevin, firstly, congratulations on your first born coming along. I hope your young'n gets better years supporting Everton than we are.
Secondly, as part of the MOB, I, along with many others, do not predict relegation, never have. I do think it is a possibility, but don't think it will happen this year.
Having said that, I think we will play 30 league games this season before we secure 30 league points. That, in itself is alarming, and I hope I am wrong.
What does really goad me about one of your statements is how you use "facts" to dispel any negative criticism of Moyes. If you watched the game on Saturday closely, you know as well as any of us that we weren't the better side. However, you say that this can't be true because they had less shots and less possession than us.
Was it just me, or did everyone else see Fellaini standing still with the ball on the half way line for what felt like 32 minutes? I can't have been the only one because I heard the crowd booing (more of this is needed) when they realised he had no idea what to do with that weird round thing that apparently is supposed to go somewhere to achieve something or other.
So, Kevin, if you equate a majority of possession with being the better side, you really have to analyse the quality of that possession.
The crowds aren't low right now because people don't like Kenwright (the cunt), but because the football being served up is not to the standard that it could or should be with our current squad.
My suggestion is an Aussie rules type boycott. You go to the game, so the club still gets the revenue. However, if at half time we are losing to a lesser team, or haven't scored, you don't come back from the pisser, you go home.
Secondly, as part of the MOB, I, along with many others, do not predict relegation, never have. I do think it is a possibility, but don't think it will happen this year.
Having said that, I think we will play 30 league games this season before we secure 30 league points. That, in itself is alarming, and I hope I am wrong.
What does really goad me about one of your statements is how you use "facts" to dispel any negative criticism of Moyes. If you watched the game on Saturday closely, you know as well as any of us that we weren't the better side. However, you say that this can't be true because they had less shots and less possession than us.
Was it just me, or did everyone else see Fellaini standing still with the ball on the half way line for what felt like 32 minutes? I can't have been the only one because I heard the crowd booing (more of this is needed) when they realised he had no idea what to do with that weird round thing that apparently is supposed to go somewhere to achieve something or other.
So, Kevin, if you equate a majority of possession with being the better side, you really have to analyse the quality of that possession.
The crowds aren't low right now because people don't like Kenwright (the cunt), but because the football being served up is not to the standard that it could or should be with our current squad.
My suggestion is an Aussie rules type boycott. You go to the game, so the club still gets the revenue. However, if at half time we are losing to a lesser team, or haven't scored, you don't come back from the pisser, you go home.
Kevin Tully
49 Posted 24/01/2012 at 15:00:47
49 Posted 24/01/2012 at 15:00:47
I believe the blame for our current predicament lays about 70/30 between Kenwright & Moyes respectively.
For those who don't believe we are in a relegation battle, a few numbers ; We are averaging 1.18 points per game with 22 played. This puts us on course for 45 at the end of the season ( rounded up from 44.8 )
We have got a shitty next six games coming up, and of we don't gain our average points tally, that 45 point marker will come down to relegation form after 28 games.
Unless we get some Bily money for a striker, I can see us flapping by the time March is here, unless Saha & Anichebe starts bagging a few!
What are the odds on that?
For those who don't believe we are in a relegation battle, a few numbers ; We are averaging 1.18 points per game with 22 played. This puts us on course for 45 at the end of the season ( rounded up from 44.8 )
We have got a shitty next six games coming up, and of we don't gain our average points tally, that 45 point marker will come down to relegation form after 28 games.
Unless we get some Bily money for a striker, I can see us flapping by the time March is here, unless Saha & Anichebe starts bagging a few!
What are the odds on that?
Lee Smith
50 Posted 24/01/2012 at 15:03:12
50 Posted 24/01/2012 at 15:03:12
Dave Wilson (#410) - I don't think anyone is expecting Moyes to "come out and call Kenwright a gobshite after every match" (though that image did make me laugh, thanks!).
What annoys many though, are Moyes' remarks such as "Bill is the best Chairman in the world", and "I wouldn't swap Bill for anyone", and his public damning of the BU, when their ultimate aim is for the good of the club, and when in all likely hood he isn't fully aware of what they are all about. Because to many club outsiders (me included), Bill has done nothing, and I mean nothing, to warrant such praise.
If I and others are all so very wrong, and indeed Bill Kenwright is such a saviour, then why doesn't Moyes ever back up his claims of why he thinks so highly of the man with some evidence, give some reasons as to why he says these things?
Because until he does, I will simply think that he says these things as he knows full well he is in the safest, and one of the best paid jobs in the football today.
What annoys many though, are Moyes' remarks such as "Bill is the best Chairman in the world", and "I wouldn't swap Bill for anyone", and his public damning of the BU, when their ultimate aim is for the good of the club, and when in all likely hood he isn't fully aware of what they are all about. Because to many club outsiders (me included), Bill has done nothing, and I mean nothing, to warrant such praise.
If I and others are all so very wrong, and indeed Bill Kenwright is such a saviour, then why doesn't Moyes ever back up his claims of why he thinks so highly of the man with some evidence, give some reasons as to why he says these things?
Because until he does, I will simply think that he says these things as he knows full well he is in the safest, and one of the best paid jobs in the football today.
Stephen Kenny
51 Posted 24/01/2012 at 15:03:55
51 Posted 24/01/2012 at 15:03:55
Kevin
I'm well aware of your comments and those in general on TW. Like most I'm on here most days.
If you read my post properly you would see I wrote this,
"A relegation fight is looking on the cards at this point but I doubt many see us going down"
A relegation fight and relegation are two different things.
My account of the game was a short one to show the fallacy you tried to sell, namely more possession and shots meant we were the better side. I also alluded to Ken's report and any other you care to name which says we were outplayed. If you wan't to tell me we weren't go for it, it's your credibility that's at stake.Blackburn outplayed Everton, they did not capitalise on the collective anxiety of the Old Lady, they were just the better team. I appreciate it's not easy for a proper Evertonian to write but it's true.
I appreciate you trust Moyes, but why does your trust morph into re-writing event's to support him in his position?
You have isolated several quotes of mine and tried to gel them into something I haven't said, I find that quite odd. you wan't to be careful with your selective quoting. If Rupert Murdoch get's wind of it he'll be offering you a job.
Either that or you realise you were just arguing for the sake of it?
I'm well aware of your comments and those in general on TW. Like most I'm on here most days.
If you read my post properly you would see I wrote this,
"A relegation fight is looking on the cards at this point but I doubt many see us going down"
A relegation fight and relegation are two different things.
My account of the game was a short one to show the fallacy you tried to sell, namely more possession and shots meant we were the better side. I also alluded to Ken's report and any other you care to name which says we were outplayed. If you wan't to tell me we weren't go for it, it's your credibility that's at stake.Blackburn outplayed Everton, they did not capitalise on the collective anxiety of the Old Lady, they were just the better team. I appreciate it's not easy for a proper Evertonian to write but it's true.
I appreciate you trust Moyes, but why does your trust morph into re-writing event's to support him in his position?
You have isolated several quotes of mine and tried to gel them into something I haven't said, I find that quite odd. you wan't to be careful with your selective quoting. If Rupert Murdoch get's wind of it he'll be offering you a job.
Either that or you realise you were just arguing for the sake of it?
Kevin Hudson
52 Posted 24/01/2012 at 15:19:29
52 Posted 24/01/2012 at 15:19:29
Roman,
I appreciate your sentiments, but in turn you are goading me by mis-representing what I actually said; despite my actual words being present in black & white for all the world to see..
I did NOT say "we were the better side." I simply disputed the claim that we were "completely out-played," which is how Scott saw it.
I appreciate your sentiments, but in turn you are goading me by mis-representing what I actually said; despite my actual words being present in black & white for all the world to see..
I did NOT say "we were the better side." I simply disputed the claim that we were "completely out-played," which is how Scott saw it.
Roman Sidey
53 Posted 24/01/2012 at 15:31:28
53 Posted 24/01/2012 at 15:31:28
Sorry for miss-quoting you there, Kevin. It seems to be happening a lot lately, like last night when I accidentally called a the lasagne a pasta dish.
Kevin Hudson
54 Posted 24/01/2012 at 15:50:35
54 Posted 24/01/2012 at 15:50:35
Roman,
Either I wrote the phrase: "we were the better team.."
Or..I didn't.
Anyone reading the thread can judge.
Stephen Kenny,
You clearly remain under this same mistaken impression, despite a clear indication that it wasn't a vintage performance, and that Blackburn exploited our anxiety.
You took a dim view of our performance, and I don't object to this. I was there, and found it a very difficult watch..
...And you have bought into the fear-mongering, as relegation still involves a relegation fight. By employing the term 'relegation,' and not entirely dismissing it's possibility, you are still, either tacictly or overtly, metastasizing that fear.
Also, where do you get off claiming that I am "arguing for the sake of it.."? I responded to a post YOU specifically addressed to me. So I assume you expected an answer..?
Finally..don't accuse me of 'selectively,' when you point out Blackburn hit the woodwork, but mysteriously omit to reference that we did too..
Either I wrote the phrase: "we were the better team.."
Or..I didn't.
Anyone reading the thread can judge.
Stephen Kenny,
You clearly remain under this same mistaken impression, despite a clear indication that it wasn't a vintage performance, and that Blackburn exploited our anxiety.
You took a dim view of our performance, and I don't object to this. I was there, and found it a very difficult watch..
...And you have bought into the fear-mongering, as relegation still involves a relegation fight. By employing the term 'relegation,' and not entirely dismissing it's possibility, you are still, either tacictly or overtly, metastasizing that fear.
Also, where do you get off claiming that I am "arguing for the sake of it.."? I responded to a post YOU specifically addressed to me. So I assume you expected an answer..?
Finally..don't accuse me of 'selectively,' when you point out Blackburn hit the woodwork, but mysteriously omit to reference that we did too..
Roman Sidey
55 Posted 24/01/2012 at 16:26:28
55 Posted 24/01/2012 at 16:26:28
Oh, Kevin...
Kevin Hudson
56 Posted 24/01/2012 at 16:32:31
56 Posted 24/01/2012 at 16:32:31
I'll try to make you happier, Roman.
Stylistically, we were NOT the better side..
...But we were not COMPLETELY outplayed by Blackburn Rovers.
(Diagrams availiable upon request).
Stylistically, we were NOT the better side..
...But we were not COMPLETELY outplayed by Blackburn Rovers.
(Diagrams availiable upon request).
Barry Rathbone
57 Posted 24/01/2012 at 16:49:45
57 Posted 24/01/2012 at 16:49:45
Dave Wilson
The problems are self evident but targetting Kenwright and his accomplices except one - Moyes - is a cop out.
He's steadfastly against you and any who protest - he said as much.
None so blind as those who will not see.
The problems are self evident but targetting Kenwright and his accomplices except one - Moyes - is a cop out.
He's steadfastly against you and any who protest - he said as much.
None so blind as those who will not see.
Stephen Kenny
58 Posted 24/01/2012 at 17:05:44
58 Posted 24/01/2012 at 17:05:44
Kevin,
Stylistically??? We all know why you can't just come out and say it!!!
I don't need a fear monger to tell me a side which rarely scores more than once a game and can't keep clean sheets is going to struggle to maintain it's status in the PL.
My inference that we will be in a relegation fight is just that. We will be in or around those places unless things rapidly improve. I can't see where the improvement will come from. Can you?
I still think theres a few sides worse than us, not many though.
The arguing for the sake of it referred to your post refuting the 'outplayed' remark made in the OP. If you wan't to cling to the COMPLETELY that's your choice.
Your using stylistically to describe thier play and focusing on stats to describe ours suggests that you think they played the better football but we were more effective. That's not true.
Stylistically??? We all know why you can't just come out and say it!!!
I don't need a fear monger to tell me a side which rarely scores more than once a game and can't keep clean sheets is going to struggle to maintain it's status in the PL.
My inference that we will be in a relegation fight is just that. We will be in or around those places unless things rapidly improve. I can't see where the improvement will come from. Can you?
I still think theres a few sides worse than us, not many though.
The arguing for the sake of it referred to your post refuting the 'outplayed' remark made in the OP. If you wan't to cling to the COMPLETELY that's your choice.
Your using stylistically to describe thier play and focusing on stats to describe ours suggests that you think they played the better football but we were more effective. That's not true.
Barry Rathbone
59 Posted 24/01/2012 at 17:24:59
59 Posted 24/01/2012 at 17:24:59
Blackburn looked better than us in my opinion.
Tom Kennedy
60 Posted 24/01/2012 at 16:48:38
60 Posted 24/01/2012 at 16:48:38
Its took me almost an hour to read all of this bickering between us Evertonians and it sickens me to be honest...
I for one,dont blame Moyes,his hands are tied,having to sell your best players and the obvious "sticking to your tried and trusted experienced pros"
He must doing a "Roy Hodgsen" and banging his head against a brick wall almost every Saturday evening,because its not working out for him.
He's got a big 7days ahead of him,because he has to bring at least 2 players in to give this team a lift,to give the crowd a lift!!
There must be something going on behind the scenes,what with "billy" going etc.....there has to be!!
With a fully fit squad,were not that far off being a decent side,cheer up lads...COYB
I for one,dont blame Moyes,his hands are tied,having to sell your best players and the obvious "sticking to your tried and trusted experienced pros"
He must doing a "Roy Hodgsen" and banging his head against a brick wall almost every Saturday evening,because its not working out for him.
He's got a big 7days ahead of him,because he has to bring at least 2 players in to give this team a lift,to give the crowd a lift!!
There must be something going on behind the scenes,what with "billy" going etc.....there has to be!!
With a fully fit squad,were not that far off being a decent side,cheer up lads...COYB
Jamie Barlow
61 Posted 24/01/2012 at 17:57:58
61 Posted 24/01/2012 at 17:57:58
Kevin, you're right to argue the case of us being completely outplayed because it's total bollocks. Fair enough, we didn't play well and everyone knows we didn't but it's completely false statements like this why you and a few others have to come on here to defend it.
All it takes on this site is one person to come up with a blatant lie as an excuse to bash Moyes and it gets jumped on until it becomes the truth in many people's mind.
All it takes on this site is one person to come up with a blatant lie as an excuse to bash Moyes and it gets jumped on until it becomes the truth in many people's mind.
Barry Rathbone
62 Posted 24/01/2012 at 18:16:22
62 Posted 24/01/2012 at 18:16:22
Jamie
Why don't you ask to proof read any article to identify the lies - diverse opinion and free speech is a twat.
Just ask Kenwright.
Why don't you ask to proof read any article to identify the lies - diverse opinion and free speech is a twat.
Just ask Kenwright.
Jamie Barlow
63 Posted 24/01/2012 at 18:44:47
63 Posted 24/01/2012 at 18:44:47
I don't need to proof read any article to identify the lies Barry. There's a good few people on here that can do it when the articles are submitted and they shouldn't be accused of arguing for the sake of it for doing so.
Kevin Hudson
64 Posted 24/01/2012 at 18:37:58
64 Posted 24/01/2012 at 18:37:58
Stephen Kenny,
My original post contained ten paragraphs, and covered multiple points.
You've singled-out, and objected to, ONE particular word that I used.
...Whilst accusing ME of arguing for the sake of it
(Which, ironically, I now am).
My original post contained ten paragraphs, and covered multiple points.
You've singled-out, and objected to, ONE particular word that I used.
...Whilst accusing ME of arguing for the sake of it
(Which, ironically, I now am).
Jon Cox
65 Posted 24/01/2012 at 18:46:20
65 Posted 24/01/2012 at 18:46:20
Kev, all the very best pal to you and your Mrs.
Jon
Jon
Jon Cox
66 Posted 24/01/2012 at 19:14:17
66 Posted 24/01/2012 at 19:14:17
Oh and PS, you're still wrong ;-)
Dave Wilson
67 Posted 24/01/2012 at 19:08:50
67 Posted 24/01/2012 at 19:08:50
Barry #443
I guess it comes down to understanding the difference between employer and employee.
None so deluded as those who think they are in position to decide what others can and cannot see
I guess it comes down to understanding the difference between employer and employee.
None so deluded as those who think they are in position to decide what others can and cannot see
Tom Kennedy
68 Posted 24/01/2012 at 19:19:58
68 Posted 24/01/2012 at 19:19:58
Oh Yeah i forgot to say on me last post
KENWRIGHT OUT!!!
KENWRIGHT OUT!!!
Stephen Kenny
69 Posted 24/01/2012 at 19:24:31
69 Posted 24/01/2012 at 19:24:31
Kevin,
If you go back to my first post to you I disagreed with quite a few of your points. The debate went off on a bit of a tangent, but I have tried to respond to any points you have made.
If you go back to my first post to you I disagreed with quite a few of your points. The debate went off on a bit of a tangent, but I have tried to respond to any points you have made.
Kevin Hudson
70 Posted 24/01/2012 at 18:53:52
70 Posted 24/01/2012 at 18:53:52
Jamie,
Agreed. One only has to turn to the vitriol directed towards Moyes following the entirely fictitious speculation about Davie Weir, as evidence of the unrelenting crying that pervades this website.
Also, remember the sheer revulsion when compliments about DM came from the likes of Pardew, Klinsmann, Villas-Boas.
I enjoy the read, but am easily-baited by the MOB's sweeping statements, their selectivity & amnesia.
What else..? The disregard or deliberate down-playing of the practical difficulties, the "apparent," but mythical 'magic wand,' solution, the pie-in-the-sky delusions, and the almost Kopite-esque level of entitlement.
Also common are the examples of hindsight, the regular positing of only a fraction of evidence to support a current theory, the demand for the new 'flavours of the month,' to be fast-tracked into the team; And the insistence that the latest 'flavours of the month,' could do a better managerial job than Moyes.
Finally, the cosmetic obsession with presentation, the obsessive psychoanalysis of Moyes, the ale-house second-guessing expertise and subsequent dismissiveness of him & the mawkish addiction of staring into an imagined abyss.
But most annoying are the one's who deliberately STAY AWAY from the ground...when the team needs them more than ever, but whose 'support,' now ammounts to laptop-lobbying instead.
Agreed. One only has to turn to the vitriol directed towards Moyes following the entirely fictitious speculation about Davie Weir, as evidence of the unrelenting crying that pervades this website.
Also, remember the sheer revulsion when compliments about DM came from the likes of Pardew, Klinsmann, Villas-Boas.
I enjoy the read, but am easily-baited by the MOB's sweeping statements, their selectivity & amnesia.
What else..? The disregard or deliberate down-playing of the practical difficulties, the "apparent," but mythical 'magic wand,' solution, the pie-in-the-sky delusions, and the almost Kopite-esque level of entitlement.
Also common are the examples of hindsight, the regular positing of only a fraction of evidence to support a current theory, the demand for the new 'flavours of the month,' to be fast-tracked into the team; And the insistence that the latest 'flavours of the month,' could do a better managerial job than Moyes.
Finally, the cosmetic obsession with presentation, the obsessive psychoanalysis of Moyes, the ale-house second-guessing expertise and subsequent dismissiveness of him & the mawkish addiction of staring into an imagined abyss.
But most annoying are the one's who deliberately STAY AWAY from the ground...when the team needs them more than ever, but whose 'support,' now ammounts to laptop-lobbying instead.
Daniel Johnson
71 Posted 24/01/2012 at 19:41:50
71 Posted 24/01/2012 at 19:41:50
There is an interesting article on the BBC regarding a Brazillian coach called Soares on the BBC.
Link to article below:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/timvickery/2012/01/insecure_coaches_set_a_cynical.html
He was talking about the high turnover of coaches in Brazil and how that has impacted on the way teams play football.
Here is quote from that article:
"It was in search of job security, he told me, that so many coaches constructed their sides on a safety-first basis, with limited but athletic defensive midfielders protecting the centre-backs."
Sound familiar??????
So maybe David Moyes way of playing and setting up his team is his way of simply looking after No1.
Link to article below:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/timvickery/2012/01/insecure_coaches_set_a_cynical.html
He was talking about the high turnover of coaches in Brazil and how that has impacted on the way teams play football.
Here is quote from that article:
"It was in search of job security, he told me, that so many coaches constructed their sides on a safety-first basis, with limited but athletic defensive midfielders protecting the centre-backs."
Sound familiar??????
So maybe David Moyes way of playing and setting up his team is his way of simply looking after No1.
Kevin Hudson
72 Posted 24/01/2012 at 19:41:43
72 Posted 24/01/2012 at 19:41:43
Jon Cox,
Thanks mate :)
(Right-back-at-ya).
Thanks mate :)
(Right-back-at-ya).
Stephen Kenny
73 Posted 24/01/2012 at 19:33:27
73 Posted 24/01/2012 at 19:33:27
Jamie,
those who think we weren't outplayed are seemingly in a minority of two. There are many respected posters on here who have said as much, Ken being one, and despite the fact we regularly disagree Kevin is another, but I couldn't see where he was coming from in his original post. For the record despite us having a few good chances I thought we got battered.
I don't like bandwagon jumpers at any time but a lot of that comes from the anger at such poor performances. We've only scored twice on an handful of occassions this season and three weeks into a new transfer window we haven't signed anybody of note who will change that.
A lot of that is Bill's fault but a certain amount of blame can go to Moyes too. He didn't have to sell last seasons top scorer and he didn't have to choose to sell Arteta over Jagielka.
The air of negativity that's engulfed the club stems from the boardroom antics of the board and our friends of Everton, but Moyes has fanned the flames all season and at times belittled our club and our fans. He can hardly grumble when people vent their anger in retaliation.
those who think we weren't outplayed are seemingly in a minority of two. There are many respected posters on here who have said as much, Ken being one, and despite the fact we regularly disagree Kevin is another, but I couldn't see where he was coming from in his original post. For the record despite us having a few good chances I thought we got battered.
I don't like bandwagon jumpers at any time but a lot of that comes from the anger at such poor performances. We've only scored twice on an handful of occassions this season and three weeks into a new transfer window we haven't signed anybody of note who will change that.
A lot of that is Bill's fault but a certain amount of blame can go to Moyes too. He didn't have to sell last seasons top scorer and he didn't have to choose to sell Arteta over Jagielka.
The air of negativity that's engulfed the club stems from the boardroom antics of the board and our friends of Everton, but Moyes has fanned the flames all season and at times belittled our club and our fans. He can hardly grumble when people vent their anger in retaliation.
Kevin Hudson
74 Posted 24/01/2012 at 19:52:29
74 Posted 24/01/2012 at 19:52:29
Stephen,
I'm all in favour of criticism provided it's based on solid foundations.
It's when people extrapolate excessively-rampant negativity from seemingly every Everton-related scenario, event, story, theory etc..that folks like myself feel the need to correspond with a counter-argument.
Make no mistake, we weren't great on Saturday, and 14th simply isn't good enough for us. But I'd rmuch rather trust the team, and back the gaffer, than perpetual wallowing embroidered by Apocalyptic-themed prose.
I'm all in favour of criticism provided it's based on solid foundations.
It's when people extrapolate excessively-rampant negativity from seemingly every Everton-related scenario, event, story, theory etc..that folks like myself feel the need to correspond with a counter-argument.
Make no mistake, we weren't great on Saturday, and 14th simply isn't good enough for us. But I'd rmuch rather trust the team, and back the gaffer, than perpetual wallowing embroidered by Apocalyptic-themed prose.
Barry Rathbone
75 Posted 24/01/2012 at 19:46:31
75 Posted 24/01/2012 at 19:46:31
Dave Wilson
Glad you see Moyes is just protecting his multi million pound job unlike Martin O' Neil @ Villa, Benitez @ liverpool, Mark Hughes @ Fulham even Joe Royle @ Everton plus many more who have taken their board to task in line with the ambition of the fans, usually giving up their job.
As others have said if it's just about money what is the fuss about keeping Moyes, just imagine the last 2 seasons with a manager with a bit more devil about him saving us a few million in managers salary.
We might still have Pienaar, Arteta and Yakabu firing on all cylinders with Barkley ripping it up alongside a rejuvenated Rodwell.
Think positive Dave stop being so negative.
Glad you see Moyes is just protecting his multi million pound job unlike Martin O' Neil @ Villa, Benitez @ liverpool, Mark Hughes @ Fulham even Joe Royle @ Everton plus many more who have taken their board to task in line with the ambition of the fans, usually giving up their job.
As others have said if it's just about money what is the fuss about keeping Moyes, just imagine the last 2 seasons with a manager with a bit more devil about him saving us a few million in managers salary.
We might still have Pienaar, Arteta and Yakabu firing on all cylinders with Barkley ripping it up alongside a rejuvenated Rodwell.
Think positive Dave stop being so negative.
Andy Crooks
76 Posted 24/01/2012 at 19:49:00
76 Posted 24/01/2012 at 19:49:00
Dave Wilson, I doubt any Evertonian would back Everton to be relegated. If you could get me 10,000/1 I wouldn't have 10p on it. Yet,I believe we are most certainly in a relegation battle. I agree with you that we are on a desperately sad decline and without investment relegation beckons. You believe that Moyes can buy us a couple more years, I believe that that is more likely with a new coach.
If Moyes were to resign tomorrow I certainly would not be jubilant. I would be anxious,I would be wondering if I was right to want him replaced, but,deep down I would think it was the best for the club. Think back ,Dave ,to the boost David Moyes brought to the club when he arrived. It can happen again and I honestly and .yes, reluctantly believe there is no alternative.
If Moyes were to resign tomorrow I certainly would not be jubilant. I would be anxious,I would be wondering if I was right to want him replaced, but,deep down I would think it was the best for the club. Think back ,Dave ,to the boost David Moyes brought to the club when he arrived. It can happen again and I honestly and .yes, reluctantly believe there is no alternative.
Mark Stone
77 Posted 24/01/2012 at 20:09:56
77 Posted 24/01/2012 at 20:09:56
We might still have Pienaar, Arteta and Yakabu firing on all cylinders with Barkley ripping it up alongside a rejuvenated Rodwell.
Yeah, yeah. We would would, yeah. Nice one.
Yeah, yeah. We would would, yeah. Nice one.
Barry Rathbone
78 Posted 24/01/2012 at 20:14:03
78 Posted 24/01/2012 at 20:14:03
thanks Mark.
Stephen Kenny
79 Posted 24/01/2012 at 20:15:56
79 Posted 24/01/2012 at 20:15:56
Kevin very true. Some do go well overboard.
Dave Wilson
80 Posted 24/01/2012 at 20:25:25
80 Posted 24/01/2012 at 20:25:25
Nice try Barry, Joe Royle belong to another age and the other three all fucked off after squandering millions and nearly bankrupting their clubs.
After failing so dismally at City Hughes got another chance at Fulham but the greedy cunt fucked off when he thought he had the Villa job . .real judgement that
After failing so dismally at City Hughes got another chance at Fulham but the greedy cunt fucked off when he thought he had the Villa job . .real judgement that
Barry Rathbone
81 Posted 24/01/2012 at 21:11:57
81 Posted 24/01/2012 at 21:11:57
Dave
You miss the point about integrity and doing the right thing for the paying public - us.
(I know you get it really, just want to avoid it)
Interesting you mention squandering millions yet ignore Moyes' support for the very people doing it here.
Think it through Dave.
You miss the point about integrity and doing the right thing for the paying public - us.
(I know you get it really, just want to avoid it)
Interesting you mention squandering millions yet ignore Moyes' support for the very people doing it here.
Think it through Dave.
John Crawley
82 Posted 24/01/2012 at 21:09:28
82 Posted 24/01/2012 at 21:09:28
Andy if you got rid of Moyes at the minute it could easily go the other way. It's not that long ago but look what happened when Kendall resigned and we just escaped relegation in 94.
To me the reason we are in the current situation is simple - the way the club is being run by the board. Tell me any manager who had to undergo 'black wednesday', losing his best players and hasn't had a net spend in the last 7 transfer windows who would not struggle. I don't believe there is one. We are in a relegation fight but I believe that we will be okay. I think the time to re-evaluate the situation is the summer. But until the current ownership changes any manager is going to struggle.
To me the reason we are in the current situation is simple - the way the club is being run by the board. Tell me any manager who had to undergo 'black wednesday', losing his best players and hasn't had a net spend in the last 7 transfer windows who would not struggle. I don't believe there is one. We are in a relegation fight but I believe that we will be okay. I think the time to re-evaluate the situation is the summer. But until the current ownership changes any manager is going to struggle.
Andrew James
83 Posted 24/01/2012 at 22:04:03
83 Posted 24/01/2012 at 22:04:03
Oh FFS.
I am studying Richard III for my University dissertation and cheekily google'd it. I saw this and thought "Wow - might get to use this for some of it!"
Instead I end up with the above. It's of no help whatsoever and I still haven't got to the bottom of whether Richard III is a work of Tudor propaganda.
Although reading the above, this Kenwright fella seems to like his propaganda. I might struggle to work that in to my dissertation though.
Anybody know anything about lip gnawing? This guy Straq does it surely?
I am studying Richard III for my University dissertation and cheekily google'd it. I saw this and thought "Wow - might get to use this for some of it!"
Instead I end up with the above. It's of no help whatsoever and I still haven't got to the bottom of whether Richard III is a work of Tudor propaganda.
Although reading the above, this Kenwright fella seems to like his propaganda. I might struggle to work that in to my dissertation though.
Anybody know anything about lip gnawing? This guy Straq does it surely?
Roman Sidey
84 Posted 24/01/2012 at 22:23:12
84 Posted 24/01/2012 at 22:23:12
Kevin, you make a point about the fans that are staying away "when the team need them the most".
What a complete load of horse shit. The team need the fans? What, the tens of thousands of pounds per week they are all getting is not enough to motivate them and the manager to play to their capacity. Fark that.
If anything, it's in times like this when people are losing their jobs, pop culture is at an all time trashy worst, and other sports are expanding, it's the fans that need the team to be firing on all cylinders every week. For some people, football is the only thing that they have to enjoy amongst a weekly grind of work, eat, sleep.
What a complete load of horse shit. The team need the fans? What, the tens of thousands of pounds per week they are all getting is not enough to motivate them and the manager to play to their capacity. Fark that.
If anything, it's in times like this when people are losing their jobs, pop culture is at an all time trashy worst, and other sports are expanding, it's the fans that need the team to be firing on all cylinders every week. For some people, football is the only thing that they have to enjoy amongst a weekly grind of work, eat, sleep.
Kevin Hudson
85 Posted 24/01/2012 at 22:47:35
85 Posted 24/01/2012 at 22:47:35
"The Magic Wand," argument, (Copywright,Roman Sidey).
Do me a favour..
Define the term "supporter."
Do me a favour..
Define the term "supporter."
Colin Grierson
86 Posted 24/01/2012 at 22:35:31
86 Posted 24/01/2012 at 22:35:31
I've not seen a worse side in the PL this season. For those apologists who post on here I am normally of a positive disposition and take no joy in stating what I see. I would have no pleasure in seeing the back of Moyes and I do have respect for the man but if not he, then who is to blame for the way we play? Moyes deploys his players with his tactics and is therefore responsible for the resulting anti-football.
I have heard pundits state how good Moyes is. I'll be interested to see where he goes after us. I wish him well but fear he doesn't have what it takes. I'm frankly embarrassed by the football we produce.
Our future in the PL is unsustainable if these tactics and brand of football persists.
However, my main concern is how long will people keep going to see this shite?!?
I have heard pundits state how good Moyes is. I'll be interested to see where he goes after us. I wish him well but fear he doesn't have what it takes. I'm frankly embarrassed by the football we produce.
Our future in the PL is unsustainable if these tactics and brand of football persists.
However, my main concern is how long will people keep going to see this shite?!?
Trevor Lynes
87 Posted 25/01/2012 at 09:54:14
87 Posted 25/01/2012 at 09:54:14
Why do these articles always seem to end up with individuals arguing with each other in print?
Our defence have carried the current team and they are the only reason we are not already bottom of the league. Each week our best players are either defenders or players on loan! The last time a striker got MotM was Saha against Blackpool yonks ago.
Decent players will not join our club and whenever competition in the transfer market is apparent... we drop out of the bidding!! This is the first time in my lifetime that we have NOT been able to sign players that other clubs wanted, and I've supported EFC since 1948!!
I fully agree with the article's main content... poor football from supposedly top players, lack of commitment in a lot of cases and absolutely no entertainment value. The fact is we are the worst side to watch in the Premier League and probably other divisions too.
It's a dire situation and I genuinely fear relegation if not this season then shortly after. Our club is being totally mismanaged and I cannot understand where the money has gone.
Why did we take Hahnemann and McFadden onto the payroll?
Why did we let Arteta, Pienaar, Gosling and Lescott go without replacements?
Why do we loan out a whole shed load of players each season, thereby weakening the squad??
We use the loan system to alleviate the wage bill and no other explanation can be expected to be believed. This board will not invest in improving this squad unless we are in the bottom three and I said this months ago.
Our defence have carried the current team and they are the only reason we are not already bottom of the league. Each week our best players are either defenders or players on loan! The last time a striker got MotM was Saha against Blackpool yonks ago.
Decent players will not join our club and whenever competition in the transfer market is apparent... we drop out of the bidding!! This is the first time in my lifetime that we have NOT been able to sign players that other clubs wanted, and I've supported EFC since 1948!!
I fully agree with the article's main content... poor football from supposedly top players, lack of commitment in a lot of cases and absolutely no entertainment value. The fact is we are the worst side to watch in the Premier League and probably other divisions too.
It's a dire situation and I genuinely fear relegation if not this season then shortly after. Our club is being totally mismanaged and I cannot understand where the money has gone.
Why did we take Hahnemann and McFadden onto the payroll?
Why did we let Arteta, Pienaar, Gosling and Lescott go without replacements?
Why do we loan out a whole shed load of players each season, thereby weakening the squad??
We use the loan system to alleviate the wage bill and no other explanation can be expected to be believed. This board will not invest in improving this squad unless we are in the bottom three and I said this months ago.
Scott Campbell
88 Posted 26/01/2012 at 11:27:11
88 Posted 26/01/2012 at 11:27:11
Dave Wilson, you are on another planet, mate. Hands up, I wrote defeat instead of draw, fair enough, my mistake. But my innacuracies.
"Moyes has presided over the first trophy-less decade since the fifties".
2000's - ...
1990's - FA Cup/Charity Shield (1995)
1980's - League Championships, etc.
1970's - League Title/Charity Shield (1970)
1960's - League Title (1963) FA Cup (1966)
1950's - ...
Where are the innacuracies in that statement?
The
Tottenham team cost less than Everton`s.
Moyes said he was "satisfied with a defeat" .
We didnt fall for it then and wont now.
Scott Campbell
89 Posted 26/01/2012 at 11:55:19
89 Posted 26/01/2012 at 11:55:19
Dave Wilson, where are the innacuracies in what I wrote - aside from saying we were beaten by Blackburn which was obviously a typo. Where were they???
"Moyes has presided over the first trophy-less decade since the fifties".
2000's - Nothing...
1990's - FA Cup/Charity Shield (1995)...
1980's - League Championships, etc...
1970's - League Title/Charity Shield (1970)...
1960's - League Title (1963) FA Cup (1966)...
1950's - Nothing...
Where are the innacuracies, Dave?
"The Tottenham team cost less than Everton`s."
Friedel - FREE
Walker - £3M
Kaboul - £5M
Dawson - £4M
Assou-Ekotto - £3.5M
Livermore - FREE
Bale - £5M
Modric - £16.6M
Lennon - £1M
Van der Vaart - £8M
Aderbayor - LOAN
TOTAL COST: £46.1M
Howard - £3M
Neville - £3.5M
Heitinga - £6M
Distin - £5M
Baines - £6M
Bilyaletdinov - £8.9M
Fellaini - £15M
Cahill - £1.5M
Donovan - LOAN
Anichebe - FREE
Saha - ?????
TOTAL COST £48.9M
Moyes said he was "satisfied with a defeat". Okay, I'll give you this. If we're going to go down the semantic route, well, Moyes' exact reaction was that he was "satisfied despite the defeat..." Agreed? So, in spite of the fact we lost to Tottenham he was satisfied. Agreed? Take from that what you will...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/16522667.stm
That's all you got to go on, Dave. Semantics and a typo. Thanks for your prediction. It's all about opinions isn't it really. You and I don't agree. Fair enough. I hope your prediction by the way, is correct, we stay up and Moyes does one. That's what I want, I'm sure there are a lot more with a similar outlook. But as for you not falling for my articles, well, before you start talking about innacuracies, check your facts, because it is you, not me with the innacuracies.
Scott Campbell
90 Posted 26/01/2012 at 12:32:31
90 Posted 26/01/2012 at 12:32:31
I'm doing double line breaks so why oh why no paragraphs?
Roman Sidey
91 Posted 26/01/2012 at 12:42:09
91 Posted 26/01/2012 at 12:42:09
Kevin, maybe a dictionary will weigh you down enough to get off your high horse.
Kevin Hudson
92 Posted 26/01/2012 at 13:09:31
92 Posted 26/01/2012 at 13:09:31
You're coming out with bollocks, Roman. Again.
Dave Wilson
93 Posted 26/01/2012 at 13:00:26
93 Posted 26/01/2012 at 13:00:26
Scott
The trouble with you is you think we were all born yesterday.
It was big of you to own up to your first error. but then considering its still up there, it was difficult for you not to.
The second one where you claim "Moyes was satified with a defeat" has nothing to do with semantics. It was you deliberately trying to mislead people by distorting what was said. You`ve only come clean on that because again, you have no option - anybody could find the quote.
The third was just another blatant attempt to mislead people. You claim Walker cost 3m which is bollocks he was tranfered to Spurs in a 9m transfer with Kyle Naughton as a make weight.
Same goes for Dawson (9M with Andy Reid being make weight) but I`ll be generous and call them both 5m which takes their cost above the cost of the Everton team - even allowing for the claim that Fellaini cost 15m quid.
Of course you chose to leave out Pienaar and Pavlachenko even though BOTH PLAYED, I`m assuming you did this because you knew it would show that the Spurs team cost 20m more than ours - nice try, but Nobody`s buying.
You also claimed that if Villa went one up against us, Moyes`s gameplan would be "defunct" and that Villa would get a second . .oh dear.
Like I say, littered with inaccuracies especially the one about Moyes presiding over the first trophy-less decade.
I`ll give you a chance to redeem yourself though Scott.
Get back to me with a list of trophies we won in the FOURTEEN YEARS between 1970 and 1984
The trouble with you is you think we were all born yesterday.
It was big of you to own up to your first error. but then considering its still up there, it was difficult for you not to.
The second one where you claim "Moyes was satified with a defeat" has nothing to do with semantics. It was you deliberately trying to mislead people by distorting what was said. You`ve only come clean on that because again, you have no option - anybody could find the quote.
The third was just another blatant attempt to mislead people. You claim Walker cost 3m which is bollocks he was tranfered to Spurs in a 9m transfer with Kyle Naughton as a make weight.
Same goes for Dawson (9M with Andy Reid being make weight) but I`ll be generous and call them both 5m which takes their cost above the cost of the Everton team - even allowing for the claim that Fellaini cost 15m quid.
Of course you chose to leave out Pienaar and Pavlachenko even though BOTH PLAYED, I`m assuming you did this because you knew it would show that the Spurs team cost 20m more than ours - nice try, but Nobody`s buying.
You also claimed that if Villa went one up against us, Moyes`s gameplan would be "defunct" and that Villa would get a second . .oh dear.
Like I say, littered with inaccuracies especially the one about Moyes presiding over the first trophy-less decade.
I`ll give you a chance to redeem yourself though Scott.
Get back to me with a list of trophies we won in the FOURTEEN YEARS between 1970 and 1984
Kevin Hudson
94 Posted 26/01/2012 at 13:43:34
94 Posted 26/01/2012 at 13:43:34
Scott,
Unless you can provide us a link that irrefutably demonstrates Moyes stating that he was "satisfied with the defeat."
...Then you're peddling a falsehood.
DM did not utter those words; the BBC did - fact.
Unless you can provide us a link that irrefutably demonstrates Moyes stating that he was "satisfied with the defeat."
...Then you're peddling a falsehood.
DM did not utter those words; the BBC did - fact.
Scott Campbell
95 Posted 26/01/2012 at 13:58:43
95 Posted 26/01/2012 at 13:58:43
Dave Wilson, I'm talking about 11 vs 11 - go and have a look, do a little reading. The actual transfer fees for all the players are there on the internet beyond Wikipedia, mate...
I thought I made it quite clear about the decades. In the 1970's (which is 1970 to 1979 when I last checked) we won the league and charity shield. Talk about spin. You could give Malcolm Tucker lessons...
Moyes' gameplan is defunct when we go one behind. FACT. He doesn't send sides out to beat teams, he sends them out not to lose.
The thing is, you can't put across an argument with people like you, once your mind is made up, it's made up and nothing will change it. Thankfully there are a lot more people who will believe the facts. Go away and do your research on what the Spurs starting 11 and the Everton starting 11 cost. Not from wikipedia...
Kevin Hudson 305 - I enjoyed your piece as an opposing view because it was, to be fair, constructive.
Theories about what is going to happen, what is happening and so on, is all we have to go on. That's the reality of the situation. We don't know what the rest of this season might hold for the club. We might beat Fulham on Friday, go on to win the FA Cup and end up 6th or something, but I doubt it. All we can do is try to predict what might happen based on what we have seen ourselves, and we all interpret what we see, etc, in our own way.
Based on recent form the sides below us do seem hungrier. They've faced challenges head on and been successful to some degree. I agree that the table does not lie, I think you end up where you deserve to end up, however, like I say, what we have to do is anticipate what is to come. In the last few weeks, whilst we have struggled at home against sides we should be beating teams below us have displayed their "hunger" for survival - Bolton beat the shite, Blackburn won at United, Wolves picked up a point at Spurs and Arsenal, QPR have brought in a new manager and new faces, Wigan have played good football but the results have not materialised, WBA picked up a point at City and won at Newcastle. Now, these are all sides that I consider to be far and away poorer than ourselves - they certainly didn't cost what our first choice 11 cost - yet they are showing the hunger to survive whilst we look deflated before Z Cars comes on!
RE the Blackburn game, I personally, from the game I was watching thought Blackburn were far and away the better side! Maybe that's just me.
I don't see what is so great about Moyes' 10 year record. You use the term record as though Moyes has won trophies and has built a team which will continue to challenge for trophies. What exactly are we challenging for? 7th place? Is tha success? No. Trophies = success. If you don't win nothing, you are not a success. In a decade, almost, he was won nothing. Again, its about opinions. We have had some decent final placings, and some poor ones under him, it's been a little yo-yo-ish to be fair. After a decade the situation we now find ourselves in is akin to the final days of the Smith era.
You can't really talk about "corroborative evidence" to support who is better than Moyes. What "evidence" would you like? Trophies? I'm not gonna bother listing all the managers who won trophies in the 2000's to say that they are "better" than Moyes. My personal view is that a great manager is somebody with a system of football which is a success in terms of style and substance. Ie, a manager who "plays football" and makes it work. There are a few in the Premier League on the cusp of that right now. My view is that a possession based approach is the way forward - that's the future for me.
Who do I honestly want to replace Moyes - and I'm sure a lot of those "Moyesophiles" will look to shoot me down when I give his name - Roberto Martinez. He is a young positive manager. He plays football how it should be played. He favours a possession based system in which movement and keeping the ball is key. For me, this sort of European style football is the most effective way of playing the game, especially as the physical aspect of the game is becoming increasingly outlawed. He is unfortunate right now that he is at a club which, to be fair, probably have the weakest squad in the league! If he had greater resources at a "bigger" club then he would, in my opinion, be a great success. The most important factor about Martinez is that he is a thinker. I fully subscribe to the Cruyff idea that "football is a game you play with your head". I feel Martinez, and the other coaches around who adhere to similar systems, has a bright future. Is he a better manager than Moyes? It's impossible to say. He's had a lot less time at Wigan than Moyes has had with us. I certainly think that he has fresher ideas, and a better footballing brain than David Moyes. Like I say, and I think this is vital, his system is a far better one. But I guess the proof is in the pudding, the only way we'd see if he was a better manager than Moyes would be if he had a decade at Everton...
I thought I made it quite clear about the decades. In the 1970's (which is 1970 to 1979 when I last checked) we won the league and charity shield. Talk about spin. You could give Malcolm Tucker lessons...
Moyes' gameplan is defunct when we go one behind. FACT. He doesn't send sides out to beat teams, he sends them out not to lose.
The thing is, you can't put across an argument with people like you, once your mind is made up, it's made up and nothing will change it. Thankfully there are a lot more people who will believe the facts. Go away and do your research on what the Spurs starting 11 and the Everton starting 11 cost. Not from wikipedia...
Kevin Hudson 305 - I enjoyed your piece as an opposing view because it was, to be fair, constructive.
Theories about what is going to happen, what is happening and so on, is all we have to go on. That's the reality of the situation. We don't know what the rest of this season might hold for the club. We might beat Fulham on Friday, go on to win the FA Cup and end up 6th or something, but I doubt it. All we can do is try to predict what might happen based on what we have seen ourselves, and we all interpret what we see, etc, in our own way.
Based on recent form the sides below us do seem hungrier. They've faced challenges head on and been successful to some degree. I agree that the table does not lie, I think you end up where you deserve to end up, however, like I say, what we have to do is anticipate what is to come. In the last few weeks, whilst we have struggled at home against sides we should be beating teams below us have displayed their "hunger" for survival - Bolton beat the shite, Blackburn won at United, Wolves picked up a point at Spurs and Arsenal, QPR have brought in a new manager and new faces, Wigan have played good football but the results have not materialised, WBA picked up a point at City and won at Newcastle. Now, these are all sides that I consider to be far and away poorer than ourselves - they certainly didn't cost what our first choice 11 cost - yet they are showing the hunger to survive whilst we look deflated before Z Cars comes on!
RE the Blackburn game, I personally, from the game I was watching thought Blackburn were far and away the better side! Maybe that's just me.
I don't see what is so great about Moyes' 10 year record. You use the term record as though Moyes has won trophies and has built a team which will continue to challenge for trophies. What exactly are we challenging for? 7th place? Is tha success? No. Trophies = success. If you don't win nothing, you are not a success. In a decade, almost, he was won nothing. Again, its about opinions. We have had some decent final placings, and some poor ones under him, it's been a little yo-yo-ish to be fair. After a decade the situation we now find ourselves in is akin to the final days of the Smith era.
You can't really talk about "corroborative evidence" to support who is better than Moyes. What "evidence" would you like? Trophies? I'm not gonna bother listing all the managers who won trophies in the 2000's to say that they are "better" than Moyes. My personal view is that a great manager is somebody with a system of football which is a success in terms of style and substance. Ie, a manager who "plays football" and makes it work. There are a few in the Premier League on the cusp of that right now. My view is that a possession based approach is the way forward - that's the future for me.
Who do I honestly want to replace Moyes - and I'm sure a lot of those "Moyesophiles" will look to shoot me down when I give his name - Roberto Martinez. He is a young positive manager. He plays football how it should be played. He favours a possession based system in which movement and keeping the ball is key. For me, this sort of European style football is the most effective way of playing the game, especially as the physical aspect of the game is becoming increasingly outlawed. He is unfortunate right now that he is at a club which, to be fair, probably have the weakest squad in the league! If he had greater resources at a "bigger" club then he would, in my opinion, be a great success. The most important factor about Martinez is that he is a thinker. I fully subscribe to the Cruyff idea that "football is a game you play with your head". I feel Martinez, and the other coaches around who adhere to similar systems, has a bright future. Is he a better manager than Moyes? It's impossible to say. He's had a lot less time at Wigan than Moyes has had with us. I certainly think that he has fresher ideas, and a better footballing brain than David Moyes. Like I say, and I think this is vital, his system is a far better one. But I guess the proof is in the pudding, the only way we'd see if he was a better manager than Moyes would be if he had a decade at Everton...
Barry Rathbone
96 Posted 26/01/2012 at 14:10:53
96 Posted 26/01/2012 at 14:10:53
Scott
I agree we need someone like martinez for the reasons you give with due respect to my scottish friends no more rufty tufty glaswegians trying the fergie stuff.
it wont work here.
I agree we need someone like martinez for the reasons you give with due respect to my scottish friends no more rufty tufty glaswegians trying the fergie stuff.
it wont work here.
Dave Wilson
97 Posted 26/01/2012 at 14:10:42
97 Posted 26/01/2012 at 14:10:42
So let me get this straight Scott.
We are only talking about little windows of time that suit you? the fourteen years I spoke about dont constitute a decade ? lol.
what about 2000 + 2001 ? ?
Dont try to hide behind the wikki argument. I`ve never used it in me life.
You`ve been proved wrong on every point and by trying to slice a section of the game to suit yourself you expose the weakness of your argument, pretend all you want that Pavlachenko and Pienaar didnt play, but we all saw them, it wont wash.
Try ballancing it out by admitting the Spurs team that finished the game cost about twice as much as the Everton team that finished it.
As for the "Moyes gameplan being defunct when we go one down - FACT"
well it wasnt when YOU confidently predicted it was it ? ? ? we equalised and should have won . . you were wrong AGAIN
We are only talking about little windows of time that suit you? the fourteen years I spoke about dont constitute a decade ? lol.
what about 2000 + 2001 ? ?
Dont try to hide behind the wikki argument. I`ve never used it in me life.
You`ve been proved wrong on every point and by trying to slice a section of the game to suit yourself you expose the weakness of your argument, pretend all you want that Pavlachenko and Pienaar didnt play, but we all saw them, it wont wash.
Try ballancing it out by admitting the Spurs team that finished the game cost about twice as much as the Everton team that finished it.
As for the "Moyes gameplan being defunct when we go one down - FACT"
well it wasnt when YOU confidently predicted it was it ? ? ? we equalised and should have won . . you were wrong AGAIN
Barry Rathbone
98 Posted 26/01/2012 at 14:46:09
98 Posted 26/01/2012 at 14:46:09
Dave Wilson
He said decades and then outlined his meaning.
Try and relax
The real point is we're shite and in danger of going down, if moyes attacked as you do we might get somwhere.
He said decades and then outlined his meaning.
Try and relax
The real point is we're shite and in danger of going down, if moyes attacked as you do we might get somwhere.
Dave Wilson
99 Posted 26/01/2012 at 14:54:28
99 Posted 26/01/2012 at 14:54:28
Barry
I know what Scot was doing, he was exaggerating to get his point across.
Now heres the thing ; I dont disgree with his main point were ARE shite to watch.
But i get really wound up with people trying to tell me things happened that didnt.
I would direct you (and Scott) back to post #398
Phil Belis does not try to take us for mugs, he does not slag off any section of the fanbase who dont agree with him.
He chose the silver bullet approach.
Who argued with him ?
I know what Scot was doing, he was exaggerating to get his point across.
Now heres the thing ; I dont disgree with his main point were ARE shite to watch.
But i get really wound up with people trying to tell me things happened that didnt.
I would direct you (and Scott) back to post #398
Phil Belis does not try to take us for mugs, he does not slag off any section of the fanbase who dont agree with him.
He chose the silver bullet approach.
Who argued with him ?
Scott Campbell
100 Posted 26/01/2012 at 19:47:53
100 Posted 26/01/2012 at 19:47:53
Okay, Dave. Do you understand what a decade is? Here is a link to the definition of what a decade is...
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/decade
So, we'll go back to the point that a decade being, "a period of ten years beginning with a year whose last digit is zero: the decade of the 1980s." - The 2000's - ie, 2000 to 2009, were trophyless...
The starting 11 that Spurs sent out, because that's what I said, the starting 11, were worth less than Everton's starting 11. I'm not talking subs, I'm talking the 11 who started the game. What is so difficult for you to understand there? What is there to get wound up about? Are you getting wound up by the fact that, to paraphrase Jack Nicholson, "you can't handle the truth..."?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/decade
So, we'll go back to the point that a decade being, "a period of ten years beginning with a year whose last digit is zero: the decade of the 1980s." - The 2000's - ie, 2000 to 2009, were trophyless...
The starting 11 that Spurs sent out, because that's what I said, the starting 11, were worth less than Everton's starting 11. I'm not talking subs, I'm talking the 11 who started the game. What is so difficult for you to understand there? What is there to get wound up about? Are you getting wound up by the fact that, to paraphrase Jack Nicholson, "you can't handle the truth..."?
Dave Wilson
101 Posted 26/01/2012 at 20:09:53
101 Posted 26/01/2012 at 20:09:53
Scott.
I dont want to come across as what Barry #985 described as attacking,
so I will put aside the frustration I feel at your continued insistence that I am wrong and tone this right down.
1) A Decade is ten years, any ten years, HOWEVER ! I am prepared to go with your definition.
Moyes was not here in 2000 or 2001 so using your own definition of a decade he hasn't presided over one . .do you get it ? you are wrong either way.
As for " the truth I cant handle".
In your post #541 on the Carpe Diem thread you berated Mike Gaynes and told him the Tottenham team cost 51m. You were adamant your sources were spot on - feel free to go back and check.
I then checked the cost of Evertons team on TW (the starting 11) and told you it didnt even amount to 50m.
Amazingly you have now come back with even more "reliable sources" claiming the Spurs team now only cost 46m.
Its not a question of handling the truth Scott, its a question of which truth you think I`m gullible enough to swallow .
Neither, your attempt to pull the wool was a clumsy one.
Please let this go, there is no more mileage in it
I dont want to come across as what Barry #985 described as attacking,
so I will put aside the frustration I feel at your continued insistence that I am wrong and tone this right down.
1) A Decade is ten years, any ten years, HOWEVER ! I am prepared to go with your definition.
Moyes was not here in 2000 or 2001 so using your own definition of a decade he hasn't presided over one . .do you get it ? you are wrong either way.
As for " the truth I cant handle".
In your post #541 on the Carpe Diem thread you berated Mike Gaynes and told him the Tottenham team cost 51m. You were adamant your sources were spot on - feel free to go back and check.
I then checked the cost of Evertons team on TW (the starting 11) and told you it didnt even amount to 50m.
Amazingly you have now come back with even more "reliable sources" claiming the Spurs team now only cost 46m.
Its not a question of handling the truth Scott, its a question of which truth you think I`m gullible enough to swallow .
Neither, your attempt to pull the wool was a clumsy one.
Please let this go, there is no more mileage in it
Scott Campbell
102 Posted 26/01/2012 at 22:23:43
102 Posted 26/01/2012 at 22:23:43
Ok, Dave. Listen, I really don't care what you are willing to "swallow" as you put it. Like I said, your mind is made up, it's a waste of time. Tell you what, have a look yourself at the transfer fees. Here you go:
Tottenham
http://www.soccerbase.com/teams/team.sd?team_id=2590
Everton
http://www.soccerbase.com/teams/team.sd?team_id=942&comp_id=1
Your defiance is delusion of cloud cuckoo proportions.
Tottenham
http://www.soccerbase.com/teams/team.sd?team_id=2590
Everton
http://www.soccerbase.com/teams/team.sd?team_id=942&comp_id=1
Your defiance is delusion of cloud cuckoo proportions.
Kevin Hudson
103 Posted 26/01/2012 at 22:36:18
103 Posted 26/01/2012 at 22:36:18
Scott, (976)
Thanks for your response. You put your points across well.
Thanks for your response. You put your points across well.
Dave Wilson
104 Posted 27/01/2012 at 10:46:22
104 Posted 27/01/2012 at 10:46:22
Scot
You - nobody else - have put up the figures. first you put up 51m then you came up with 46m for the tottenham team. Now I`ve been as fair as I by comforming to all your little caveats like ignoring Pienaar and Pavlachenko but you are still talking twaddle. Which "reliable source" are you asking us to believe ?
BTW.according to TW, Fellainis fee was in Euro`s.
You`ve been forced to withdraw your "defeat against Blackburn" claim.
Your "satisfied with the defeat" claim has been disproven.
You were wrong about going two down to Villa.
Your insistance that decades needed to end in the same figure actually cleared Moyes of the charge you had levelled at him.
Your insistance that the Everton team cost 52m has proven to be as inaccurate as you`re bold forcast that "we would get less than 30,000 for the Blackburn game" - both claims still there in black and white.
but it MY defiance thats delusional ?
Fair enough
You - nobody else - have put up the figures. first you put up 51m then you came up with 46m for the tottenham team. Now I`ve been as fair as I by comforming to all your little caveats like ignoring Pienaar and Pavlachenko but you are still talking twaddle. Which "reliable source" are you asking us to believe ?
BTW.according to TW, Fellainis fee was in Euro`s.
You`ve been forced to withdraw your "defeat against Blackburn" claim.
Your "satisfied with the defeat" claim has been disproven.
You were wrong about going two down to Villa.
Your insistance that decades needed to end in the same figure actually cleared Moyes of the charge you had levelled at him.
Your insistance that the Everton team cost 52m has proven to be as inaccurate as you`re bold forcast that "we would get less than 30,000 for the Blackburn game" - both claims still there in black and white.
but it MY defiance thats delusional ?
Fair enough
Scott Campbell
105 Posted 27/01/2012 at 15:48:08
105 Posted 27/01/2012 at 15:48:08
There's two T's in my name, Dave. Okay? Can you accept that or... S C O T T... You probably don't think that's real though, because on whatever planet you spend of your time you and only you is right.
Your definition of what a decade is really sums you up doesn't it so I'm really not bothered what you think about what I've written. the fact that you feel the need to continously bring up a typo says it all about you. Delusional is too polite a word for what you are, my friend...
"all your little caveats like ignoring Pienaar and Pavlachenko but you are still talking twaddle..." Fucking hell! How... many... times... do... I... have... to... say... 11... versus... 11... did you get that? Go back and have a look again if you like. 11 versus 11!!!!!!! Get that into your skull. Now your bringing up euros hahahahaha
If you can't accept that I am talking about 11 versus 11 and that Spurs' 11 starters cost more than ours then you need to do some growing up, mate. You really do.
I don't want to get personal with you at all. We are all Evertonians, and we all want the same thing for Everton, success. We just have different ideas about how that will come around. You, however, offer no ideas whatsoever, nor do you offer anything in the way of constructive criticism in your opposing views as Kevin Hudson does, for example. I don't know why... but give it a rest now, unless you can offer some ideas, predictions, forecasts, whatever. Do something constructive, hey...
Oh yeah, ask yourself a question, what decade were you born in?? Could you answer me that? What decade were you born in? Second question, in what decade did Everton win the European Cup Winners Cup??
Remember, Dave. You have not disproven anything I have said. You might have picked up on what others have said, but YOU have not disproven anything. Your a hanger-oner, mate. Jumping on the bandwagon. If you want to disprove the FACTS that Spurs' starting 11 was worth less than Everton's starting 11 then do it. Like I provided the prices. You do it, provide us with the prices that show Spurs' starting 11 was worth more than ours. If you can't do it then stop saying you have disproved X, Y and Z because you aint...
Your definition of what a decade is really sums you up doesn't it so I'm really not bothered what you think about what I've written. the fact that you feel the need to continously bring up a typo says it all about you. Delusional is too polite a word for what you are, my friend...
"all your little caveats like ignoring Pienaar and Pavlachenko but you are still talking twaddle..." Fucking hell! How... many... times... do... I... have... to... say... 11... versus... 11... did you get that? Go back and have a look again if you like. 11 versus 11!!!!!!! Get that into your skull. Now your bringing up euros hahahahaha
If you can't accept that I am talking about 11 versus 11 and that Spurs' 11 starters cost more than ours then you need to do some growing up, mate. You really do.
I don't want to get personal with you at all. We are all Evertonians, and we all want the same thing for Everton, success. We just have different ideas about how that will come around. You, however, offer no ideas whatsoever, nor do you offer anything in the way of constructive criticism in your opposing views as Kevin Hudson does, for example. I don't know why... but give it a rest now, unless you can offer some ideas, predictions, forecasts, whatever. Do something constructive, hey...
Oh yeah, ask yourself a question, what decade were you born in?? Could you answer me that? What decade were you born in? Second question, in what decade did Everton win the European Cup Winners Cup??
Remember, Dave. You have not disproven anything I have said. You might have picked up on what others have said, but YOU have not disproven anything. Your a hanger-oner, mate. Jumping on the bandwagon. If you want to disprove the FACTS that Spurs' starting 11 was worth less than Everton's starting 11 then do it. Like I provided the prices. You do it, provide us with the prices that show Spurs' starting 11 was worth more than ours. If you can't do it then stop saying you have disproved X, Y and Z because you aint...
Dave Wilson
106 Posted 28/01/2012 at 08:02:55
106 Posted 28/01/2012 at 08:02:55
Ok Scott ? apologies for spelling your name wrong. We are not getting any further here so this is my last word on it.
I got my transfer fees from Everton Websites ? this being one of them. They each say Fellaini's transfer was in Euros. I choose to believe them over the people at Sky ? who, IMO, are about as accurate as Wikki.
Anyway, as you say, we are all Blues and let's enjoy last night's result.
Before I go, I would like to ask you one question:
Which decade did Moyes preside over? ? the 2000s or the 2010s? ? because, if I'm reading you right, he hasn't completed a decade as you would describe it. Not a trick question. I accept I'm prepared to accept I am being a bit thick here... but I still don't get it.
I got my transfer fees from Everton Websites ? this being one of them. They each say Fellaini's transfer was in Euros. I choose to believe them over the people at Sky ? who, IMO, are about as accurate as Wikki.
Anyway, as you say, we are all Blues and let's enjoy last night's result.
Before I go, I would like to ask you one question:
Which decade did Moyes preside over? ? the 2000s or the 2010s? ? because, if I'm reading you right, he hasn't completed a decade as you would describe it. Not a trick question. I accept I'm prepared to accept I am being a bit thick here... but I still don't get it.
Scott Campbell
107 Posted 28/01/2012 at 11:25:06
107 Posted 28/01/2012 at 11:25:06
As you say, Dave, we're all blues! The one thing we all want is success...
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1 Posted 23/01/2012 at 15:07:06
I believe the club under-estimate the welling up of opposition against this board.
If you have been watching closely this season, we have had some luck go our way. I shudder to think where we would be without that luck.
Blackburn away, Wolves at home, Norwich at home, Sunderland away ? all jammy results.