Season 2011-12 Fan Articles
Strikers' Graveyard?
By Dave Wilson :: 23/02/2012
121 Comments (»Last)
Louis Saha`s transfer to Spurs came as something of a surprise, his form for most of the season had been poor, he appeared not to care. David Moyes no longer seemed able to coax a performance out of him. Many Evertonians were quite simply glad to see the back of him.
The Spurs fans were mystified too; they were chasing the title, why on earth would they want him? But they were delighted when he bagged a brace on his home debut, he looked a class act.
Seeing Saha play so well was difficult for Evertonians to take. Yakubu had been scoring for fun since he'd left and now the player who had looked for all the world as if he had retired ? mentally at least ? had found his shooting boots and was really looking the part.
"Goodison has become a graveyard for strikers" ... "Moyes ruins every striker he gets his hands on" ? How many times have you heard that? So has it?? ... Does he???
Strikers have always been the golden boys, the crowd favourites ? and rightly so; they do the hardest job of all, they are often the difference between success and failure.
Today's Premier League striker has it made, though. He is treated like a God and will pocket anything up to £200k a week. When he's scoring, he really does live the dream; everybody loves him... but what happens when the goals dry up? ... Well, he still gets his £200k and (in his world) everybody still loves him. If there is a price to pay for a striker performing badly, it's usually paid by his manager.
Can you imagine the tension Kenny Dalgliesh feels every time the guy he paid £35M for fails to make an impact? How Mancini feels when he see`s images of Carlos Tevez playing golf on SSN? What goes through Fergies mind when the guy who shared the golden boot with Tevez last season, looks completely disinterested? These strikers can break a manager.
Andre Villas-Boas is under intense pressure to get results, but the guy who not long ago was rated by many as the world's top marksman, is now playing like the arse end of a pantomime horse.
Buying a top striker is probably the biggest risk a leading manager will take; if it backfires, his judgement will be questioned, but letting a striker go can often be just as much of a gamble. Yakubu has made a habit of leaving clubs after a dip in form only to find the change of scenery was enough to re-align his stars. Sir Alex Ferguson must turn the telly off every time he sees Diego Forlan lining up...
A striker's form is only one of the problems, the relationship they have with managers is often fiery and short-lived, Even the best managers have trouble dealing with these modern-day prima donnas. SAF has had some very public bust-ups with his forwards: Van Nistelroy, Ronaldo and Tevez have all left under less than amicable terms. Rooney has stayed so far, but only after humiliating Ferguson and forcing a staggering pay rise. Mancini has so far been unable to control Baloteli or Tevez. Wenger is feeling the heat too, When Robin van Persie follows through with his threat to leave the club at the end of this season, the Arsenal manager will be left with Oxlade-Chamberlain, Walcott and Gervinho and although Wenger paid about £30M for these three, I don't think they have reached double figures between them this season.
Then we have Harry Redknapp. We all saw the way he reacted to pressure when Darren Bent failed to hit the target for him ? he simply hung him out to dry. Redknapp's relationship with his strikers was so fractured, Crouch and Pavlyuchenko were shown the door and Defoe often left out in the cold. Having lost faith in his £40M strikeforce, Old 'Arry will now try to win the title with a loanee and a free transfer he picked up on a six-month contract.
Strikers eh? Who'd have 'em? Most of them seem to fall into one of two categories: money-grabbing gobshites who care more about money than the game... or neurotic basket cases. Maybe Pep Guardiola has the right idea, he doesn't bother with them.
Anyway, getting back to the original question: Is Goodison under Davey Moyes a graveyard for Strikers? Well, Bent, Radzinski, Beattie, Johnson, Yakubu and Beckford have all enjoyed their best seasons under Moyes. But there is little doubt that he could have handled one or two of them a little differently.
Anichebe, after some terrible injuries, is showing signs of repaying the faith his manager has shown in him, Vellios has told us how much he loves it here. And very few of us would swap the Argentine nobody wanted, for the misfiring Geordie across the park or the desperate Spaniard at The Bridge.
Sure, Moyes has made mistakes with his forwards ... but show me a manager who hasn't.
Reader Comments (121)
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Mark Stone
2 Posted 24/02/2012 at 15:26:13
2 Posted 24/02/2012 at 15:26:13
Shane I'm sure about half of those Andy Johnson goals (in the premier league for Palace) were penalties and the problem Andy Johnson had at Everton that first season was that he was wrongly branded a diver, and, what seems like week in week out, was not awarded penalties when he had been clearly fouled in the penalty area. Obviously every team sometimes doesn't get awarded a penalty when they should have been but that season was quite literally a joke for Andy Johnson. Defenders almost had license to foul him in the box, as they knew no penalty would be given!
Not disagreeing with your point by the way, Moyes record with strikers hasn't always been his biggest strength. Although Yak did score 21 for us in one season before his injury - can't even remember who the last Everton player to get 20 in a season was before him! I just thought I'd mention that about AJ because it still bugs how we got shafted that season!
Not disagreeing with your point by the way, Moyes record with strikers hasn't always been his biggest strength. Although Yak did score 21 for us in one season before his injury - can't even remember who the last Everton player to get 20 in a season was before him! I just thought I'd mention that about AJ because it still bugs how we got shafted that season!
Brian Waring
3 Posted 24/02/2012 at 15:21:10
3 Posted 24/02/2012 at 15:21:10
In my opinion Dave, I think one of the problems is that Moyes expects too much from strikers. He expects them to chase every ball down, drop deep, run the channels, defend from the front, and whilst we expect players to work hard for the team, I would rather a striker be doing all his work in and around the box.
The amount of times Beattie was asked to chase balls into the corner flag, when you wanted him in the middle. Johnson had pace to burn, but we never used it effectively, we should have been putting balls through the middle for him to use that pace, but like Beattie, he would would be chasing balls like a headless chicken.
Also, you only have to look at what Steve Kean says about the Yak.
"We don't ask him to run the channels, we just ask him to play the width of the box."
"We've got a way of playing him now, because we know what his favourite runs are and we know what service he likes."
Could you see Moyes saying these things about a striker?
The amount of times Beattie was asked to chase balls into the corner flag, when you wanted him in the middle. Johnson had pace to burn, but we never used it effectively, we should have been putting balls through the middle for him to use that pace, but like Beattie, he would would be chasing balls like a headless chicken.
Also, you only have to look at what Steve Kean says about the Yak.
"We don't ask him to run the channels, we just ask him to play the width of the box."
"We've got a way of playing him now, because we know what his favourite runs are and we know what service he likes."
Could you see Moyes saying these things about a striker?
Dave Wilson
4 Posted 24/02/2012 at 15:44:45
4 Posted 24/02/2012 at 15:44:45
Shane
Johnson was relegated despite his goals, Yakubu`s goals saved Pompey from the same fate, but only just.
Both players qualified for Europe here, as did Beatie and I believe they will all consider their time at Everton as the highlight fo their careers
Johnson was relegated despite his goals, Yakubu`s goals saved Pompey from the same fate, but only just.
Both players qualified for Europe here, as did Beatie and I believe they will all consider their time at Everton as the highlight fo their careers
Barry Rathbone
5 Posted 24/02/2012 at 15:30:37
5 Posted 24/02/2012 at 15:30:37
Don't agree with the stereotyping of forwards Dave I think they're as variable as any where else on the park.
Moyes plays defensively so it's hog heaven for defenders and quite the reverse for strikers.
I always smile when people say we just need a goalscorer, nah, we need creativity to provide chances - that's the Moyes achilles. IMO our strikers will always tail off once the "new club" syndrome wears thin - anyone think Denis will be able to keep up his barnstorming for over a season?
Graveyard ? too right.
Moyes plays defensively so it's hog heaven for defenders and quite the reverse for strikers.
I always smile when people say we just need a goalscorer, nah, we need creativity to provide chances - that's the Moyes achilles. IMO our strikers will always tail off once the "new club" syndrome wears thin - anyone think Denis will be able to keep up his barnstorming for over a season?
Graveyard ? too right.
Shane Corcoran
6 Posted 24/02/2012 at 16:01:16
6 Posted 24/02/2012 at 16:01:16
Mmmm, I'd say maybe on both fronts Dave. Nobody likes to get relegated but it was AJ's first year in the top flight (I think) and to score as many as he did must be hard to top. Didn't Yakubu qualifty for Europe and the UEFA final with Boro? Again I'd say a maybe. I would disagree 100% on Beattie though. I think he'll look back on his year with Southampton as his best.
Ben Jones
7 Posted 24/02/2012 at 16:01:16
7 Posted 24/02/2012 at 16:01:16
I do agree with a lot of your points Dave. Strikers are a bit of a luxury position.
I think the formation we play relies on the striker holding up the ball, and doing the work for the team. It's therefore true that the strikers don't score as much for us.
Spurs play similar tactics, but they have a better midfield who get up to attacking positions a lot quicker than we do, therefore the striker I.e adebayor isn't as isolated. I think that's a major problem of ours, but its more the midfield than the formation and manager.
I think our current strike force looks the strongest we have had though. I think this might be the one. Jelavic seems confident but not arrogant and I think he'll be terrific for us.
So yeah. Moyes is partly to blame I think.
I think the formation we play relies on the striker holding up the ball, and doing the work for the team. It's therefore true that the strikers don't score as much for us.
Spurs play similar tactics, but they have a better midfield who get up to attacking positions a lot quicker than we do, therefore the striker I.e adebayor isn't as isolated. I think that's a major problem of ours, but its more the midfield than the formation and manager.
I think our current strike force looks the strongest we have had though. I think this might be the one. Jelavic seems confident but not arrogant and I think he'll be terrific for us.
So yeah. Moyes is partly to blame I think.
Stephen Kenny
8 Posted 24/02/2012 at 16:03:08
8 Posted 24/02/2012 at 16:03:08
Dave,
The fact Johnson scored that many for a relegated side and didn't match it with us should tell you his best season weren't at Everton.
Likewise, the Yak kept a poor Portsmouth side up with his goals and may do the same for Blackburn.
For many of the players mentioned playing for Everton will be the highlight of their career. It doesn't mean it will be their peak of performance.
For what it's worth I don't think Moyes has made that many mistakes with our forwards. Quite often our forwards had to sacrifice themselves for the good of the team and it worked.
Marcus Bent was the original Moyes man. He did everything Moyes expected of him and the rest of the side was set up to take advantage of his work. We have never been as effective as a unit as we were then.
Beattie just didn't work out. He looked good in spells and you would think he was going to kick on then he'd disappear for a few games.
His injuries mean't he never really got going despite untold chances. That said he needed wingers supplying crosses and another player beside him making chances through good movement. At that point Cahill was the far more dangerous player and we played to his strengths, which was hustling and set piece play.
Johnson I feel a bit differently about. I think he was used as a more expensive Bent. The amount of times we hoofed it up to him to challenge big CB's in the air or to chase lost causes was soul destroying for him. It says a lot about him that he was never seen to moan on the pitch.
I think he was a real player and while we were still set up for Cahill he could never thrive. With a ball playing number 10 behind him I think he'd have been the perfect striker for 4-5-1. Again IMO injuries ultimately done for him. The amount of work he got through per game means it's not that suprising.
Yakubu is Moyes most successful striker to date. Credit to Moyes he changed the way we played for the Yak. We went from high balls and crosses to playing it to his feet, getting runners past him and looking to get behind full backs. It worked too. His 21 goal season is my favourite so far as a match going Evertonian. We were, at times, sublime.
I don't feel he was handled properly after his injury and I don't think he was given a chance to play himself back into form. A mistake on Moyes part but mistakes happen. Perhaps he never done enough to be given a chance or he was determined to move on?
Saha??? Was good when he could be bothered and was dire when he weren't. His time co-incided with a downturn in our fortunes and quality of players around him. If he scores 20 for Spurs I still won't miss him. He has never really suited our style of play and I don't think he ever really wanted to pay for us. The only mistake Moyes made with him was keeping him so long.
I feel like Jermaine Beckford warrant's a mention. He jumped up two levels and was asked to change his game for us. He was not a lone striker nor was he a workhorse, yet he did both for us when he played. Despite all that he still scored 10 (I count the one vs Villa) in 16 starts. His overall play weren't great but he netted regular, which is his first responsibility. I can't understand why he weren't kept?
The fact Johnson scored that many for a relegated side and didn't match it with us should tell you his best season weren't at Everton.
Likewise, the Yak kept a poor Portsmouth side up with his goals and may do the same for Blackburn.
For many of the players mentioned playing for Everton will be the highlight of their career. It doesn't mean it will be their peak of performance.
For what it's worth I don't think Moyes has made that many mistakes with our forwards. Quite often our forwards had to sacrifice themselves for the good of the team and it worked.
Marcus Bent was the original Moyes man. He did everything Moyes expected of him and the rest of the side was set up to take advantage of his work. We have never been as effective as a unit as we were then.
Beattie just didn't work out. He looked good in spells and you would think he was going to kick on then he'd disappear for a few games.
His injuries mean't he never really got going despite untold chances. That said he needed wingers supplying crosses and another player beside him making chances through good movement. At that point Cahill was the far more dangerous player and we played to his strengths, which was hustling and set piece play.
Johnson I feel a bit differently about. I think he was used as a more expensive Bent. The amount of times we hoofed it up to him to challenge big CB's in the air or to chase lost causes was soul destroying for him. It says a lot about him that he was never seen to moan on the pitch.
I think he was a real player and while we were still set up for Cahill he could never thrive. With a ball playing number 10 behind him I think he'd have been the perfect striker for 4-5-1. Again IMO injuries ultimately done for him. The amount of work he got through per game means it's not that suprising.
Yakubu is Moyes most successful striker to date. Credit to Moyes he changed the way we played for the Yak. We went from high balls and crosses to playing it to his feet, getting runners past him and looking to get behind full backs. It worked too. His 21 goal season is my favourite so far as a match going Evertonian. We were, at times, sublime.
I don't feel he was handled properly after his injury and I don't think he was given a chance to play himself back into form. A mistake on Moyes part but mistakes happen. Perhaps he never done enough to be given a chance or he was determined to move on?
Saha??? Was good when he could be bothered and was dire when he weren't. His time co-incided with a downturn in our fortunes and quality of players around him. If he scores 20 for Spurs I still won't miss him. He has never really suited our style of play and I don't think he ever really wanted to pay for us. The only mistake Moyes made with him was keeping him so long.
I feel like Jermaine Beckford warrant's a mention. He jumped up two levels and was asked to change his game for us. He was not a lone striker nor was he a workhorse, yet he did both for us when he played. Despite all that he still scored 10 (I count the one vs Villa) in 16 starts. His overall play weren't great but he netted regular, which is his first responsibility. I can't understand why he weren't kept?
Andrew Ellams
9 Posted 24/02/2012 at 16:30:03
9 Posted 24/02/2012 at 16:30:03
Mark Stone, the last Everton player to hit 20 goals in a season before Yakubu was Beardsley. So no strikers really prospered under Walker, Royle, Kendal Mk III or Smith. Maybe the place is cursed.
Arthur Westhead
10 Posted 24/02/2012 at 16:18:02
10 Posted 24/02/2012 at 16:18:02
There is no doubt that Moyes expects his forwards to be our first line of defence. I am sick of seeing our striker chasing players back to our penalty area. They should conserve their energy and prowl around the box. Brian 873 makes a great point about the way Blackburn play Yakubu.
Despite some of his goals, my main memory of Beattie was him charging back towards our own corner flag chasing a Chelsea defender then headbutting him on the back of his head for no sane reason. He was sent off and we got beat.
We were beating Bolton at home (luckily at the time!) when Saha chased a man back into our penalty area, slide tackled him and succeeded in passing the ball straight to a Bolton forward who scored the equaliser. Bolton took control and we lost. And they were bottom of the league at the time.
Our striker (that's singular as we only ever play one, and that's the main reason they all struggle for chances) should stay up front and not come back defending.
If only we had tried Saha just behind Straq, or Beckford or Yakubu. All of them only ever played upfront on their own. Ifs, buts and onlys...
Despite some of his goals, my main memory of Beattie was him charging back towards our own corner flag chasing a Chelsea defender then headbutting him on the back of his head for no sane reason. He was sent off and we got beat.
We were beating Bolton at home (luckily at the time!) when Saha chased a man back into our penalty area, slide tackled him and succeeded in passing the ball straight to a Bolton forward who scored the equaliser. Bolton took control and we lost. And they were bottom of the league at the time.
Our striker (that's singular as we only ever play one, and that's the main reason they all struggle for chances) should stay up front and not come back defending.
If only we had tried Saha just behind Straq, or Beckford or Yakubu. All of them only ever played upfront on their own. Ifs, buts and onlys...
Mark Stone
11 Posted 24/02/2012 at 16:39:16
11 Posted 24/02/2012 at 16:39:16
Good knowledge mate. Thanks!
Anthony Jones
12 Posted 24/02/2012 at 16:50:34
12 Posted 24/02/2012 at 16:50:34
12/15 paragraphs not discussing the question, and then a throw-away statement that "Bent, Radzinski, Beattie, Johnson, Yakubu and Beckford have all enjoyed their best seasons under Moyes."
Move on, nothing to see here!
Move on, nothing to see here!
Ray Robinson
13 Posted 24/02/2012 at 16:46:40
13 Posted 24/02/2012 at 16:46:40
As has been mentioned earlier, Moyes expects too much of his strikers. If you have a free flowing, quick, supporting midfield, all capable of scoring goals, arguably you don't need an out-an-out striker.
However, we play one up front with a slow, ponderous midfield. In those circumstances, you need a forward to chase all around the front of the opposing defence a la Bent and Johnson. But it's knackering and it blunts their edge and certain players, however good they are as strikers, cannot do it - i.e. Beattie, Yakubu, and Saha.
I would refuse to damn any of the above on the basis that they probably would have done better with a partner. Saha will have a field day at Spurs with Adebayor alongside him.
I imagine what Latchford (for me the best striker I've seen at Everton) or Lineker would have done if they'd been asked to chase balls to the corner flag while the midfield caught up. For me, Moyes has never got the best out of his strikers and that in my opinion is why we do repesent a striker's graveyard.
It's all about balance but for me, you can't ask a striker to play up front on his own unless you have pace throughout the team.
Finally, I would disagree with your premise that certain strikers have had their best years at Everton - maybe yes in terms of overall quality of team play, league standing etc, but arguably, Yakubu will be enjoying his football far more at Blackburn where he is merely tasked with doing what he is good at.
Good God, I can imagine what Latch the Snatch would have been like if he'd played for Moyes - several stones thinner, certainly but he'd never have bagged 30 in a season!
However, we play one up front with a slow, ponderous midfield. In those circumstances, you need a forward to chase all around the front of the opposing defence a la Bent and Johnson. But it's knackering and it blunts their edge and certain players, however good they are as strikers, cannot do it - i.e. Beattie, Yakubu, and Saha.
I would refuse to damn any of the above on the basis that they probably would have done better with a partner. Saha will have a field day at Spurs with Adebayor alongside him.
I imagine what Latchford (for me the best striker I've seen at Everton) or Lineker would have done if they'd been asked to chase balls to the corner flag while the midfield caught up. For me, Moyes has never got the best out of his strikers and that in my opinion is why we do repesent a striker's graveyard.
It's all about balance but for me, you can't ask a striker to play up front on his own unless you have pace throughout the team.
Finally, I would disagree with your premise that certain strikers have had their best years at Everton - maybe yes in terms of overall quality of team play, league standing etc, but arguably, Yakubu will be enjoying his football far more at Blackburn where he is merely tasked with doing what he is good at.
Good God, I can imagine what Latch the Snatch would have been like if he'd played for Moyes - several stones thinner, certainly but he'd never have bagged 30 in a season!
Anthony Hawkins
14 Posted 24/02/2012 at 16:36:06
14 Posted 24/02/2012 at 16:36:06
Everton shouldn't be a grave yard for strikers but because of the additional effort the manager requests from them it works out that way. Strikers are just that and it is a specialist position which requires the team to supply them in a manner which is most appropriate for them.
In my opinion Rooney was the best fit striker the club ever had but then he's n
In my opinion Rooney was the best fit striker the club ever had but then he's n
Ray Roche
15 Posted 24/02/2012 at 16:54:33
15 Posted 24/02/2012 at 16:54:33
Dave, there is no position in the team whereby the expression "play to their strengths" is more applicable. Duncan would have loved the sort of winger Latchford had in Dave Thomas, but we played hoofball to him instead. AJ clearly wasn't a striker who wanted to chase the ball into the corners , Beckford, as Stephen Kenny so accurately says, was never used to his particular strengths but, after jumping up a couple of divisions, still managed to score. Despite Moyes tactics, not because of them. Yakubu is now being used in a manner in which he revels, and Blackburn are reaping the benefits. I don't want this to turn into a thread to slag Moyes off, I just wish he'd stop the square pegs and round holes thing or expect every striker to play in the way Moyes wants him to play, instead of the way he was playing when we signed him. Why not play them to their strengths?
Nick Entwistle
16 Posted 24/02/2012 at 17:21:37
16 Posted 24/02/2012 at 17:21:37
If you look at Beattie's stats, he had ONE good season for Southampton and nothing else.
Peter Warren
17 Posted 24/02/2012 at 17:30:25
17 Posted 24/02/2012 at 17:30:25
Dave ? I would swop Torres or Carroll for Stracq ? were you being serious?
Kevin Tully
18 Posted 24/02/2012 at 17:32:52
18 Posted 24/02/2012 at 17:32:52
It's always grated with me that the R.S. had Rush, Fowler and Owen setting the world alight.
We nurtured Rooney and had to sell him at 18. Apart from Rooney, when have we had a decent striker come through from the reserves?
We nurtured Rooney and had to sell him at 18. Apart from Rooney, when have we had a decent striker come through from the reserves?
Anthony Hawkins
19 Posted 24/02/2012 at 16:36:06
19 Posted 24/02/2012 at 16:36:06
Everton shouldn't be a grave yard for strikers but because of the additional effort the manager requests from them it works out that way. Strikers are just that and it is a specialist position which requires the team to supply them in a manner which is most appropriate for them.
In my opinion Rooney was the best fit striker the club ever had but then he's not your standard striker.
Until the club utilises more creative midfielders the strikers will always suffer. The good news is that with Pienaar and Drenthe (an Donovan) the club is moving that direction which is why Straqu has scored the types of goals he has.
In football it's all about the quality of the supply (unless your name is Saha!)
In my opinion Rooney was the best fit striker the club ever had but then he's not your standard striker.
Until the club utilises more creative midfielders the strikers will always suffer. The good news is that with Pienaar and Drenthe (an Donovan) the club is moving that direction which is why Straqu has scored the types of goals he has.
In football it's all about the quality of the supply (unless your name is Saha!)
Aiden Doyle
20 Posted 24/02/2012 at 19:22:59
20 Posted 24/02/2012 at 19:22:59
Okay, this isn?t directly relevant to Dave?s question, but it might make an interesting aside: Rooney?s ?humiliation? of Sir Alex Ferguson might not be quite what it seemed.
A good friend of mine drinks with a prominent ex-United player from time to time. As it happened, they were having a pint when the Rooney thing blew up so, naturally, my mate asked the player?s opinion on the matter. The player told him that there was no chance that Rooney would leave and that the whole story was probably just another occurrence of a scam (for want of a better word) that Ferguson had pulled several times during his own tenure at the club.
Apparently, at times when the Board are reluctant to give Ferguson the additional money that he feels that he needs to compete, he?ll persuade a trusted prominent team member to feign this sort of unrest and make ?buy big, or I?m off? sort of noises, so that he can pressurize the board with another reason as to why they NEED to free up the funds.
Works a treat every time apparently and, as you saw, as soon as the club were able to demonstrate the size of their budget (sorry, ?ambition?) to poor little Wayne, he made a dramatic U-turn.
A good friend of mine drinks with a prominent ex-United player from time to time. As it happened, they were having a pint when the Rooney thing blew up so, naturally, my mate asked the player?s opinion on the matter. The player told him that there was no chance that Rooney would leave and that the whole story was probably just another occurrence of a scam (for want of a better word) that Ferguson had pulled several times during his own tenure at the club.
Apparently, at times when the Board are reluctant to give Ferguson the additional money that he feels that he needs to compete, he?ll persuade a trusted prominent team member to feign this sort of unrest and make ?buy big, or I?m off? sort of noises, so that he can pressurize the board with another reason as to why they NEED to free up the funds.
Works a treat every time apparently and, as you saw, as soon as the club were able to demonstrate the size of their budget (sorry, ?ambition?) to poor little Wayne, he made a dramatic U-turn.
Mark Stone
21 Posted 24/02/2012 at 19:35:02
21 Posted 24/02/2012 at 19:35:02
Franny Jeffers was good Kevin! Same thing happened as with Rooney though, (obviously) The big difference between the players being that for one the move worked out but for the other it went horribly wrong. Sometimes wonder how different Franny's career might have been if he'd have stayed at Everton. Bloody NTL bankruptcy!
Andy Crooks
22 Posted 24/02/2012 at 20:07:02
22 Posted 24/02/2012 at 20:07:02
Dave, how do you think Moyes would have handled Gary Lineker? Would he have tracked back and ran to the corner flag chasing lost causes? In my view a successful side van consist of nine players with multiple roles, a goalkeeper and a goalscorer.
David Moyes will not settle for a goalscorer, hence Yakubu went. Maybe he takes the view that a cash strapped side cannot afford a luxury player. I believe he is wrong. Drenthe is our luxury player at the moment and his selection seems to make Moyes uneasy. Safety first is his priority and when injuries force his hand we get a bit of flair.
It's not a strikers' graveyard, Dave, it's a flair/luxury players graveyard.
David Moyes will not settle for a goalscorer, hence Yakubu went. Maybe he takes the view that a cash strapped side cannot afford a luxury player. I believe he is wrong. Drenthe is our luxury player at the moment and his selection seems to make Moyes uneasy. Safety first is his priority and when injuries force his hand we get a bit of flair.
It's not a strikers' graveyard, Dave, it's a flair/luxury players graveyard.
Christine Foster
23 Posted 24/02/2012 at 20:49:39
23 Posted 24/02/2012 at 20:49:39
It's a stark reality that Moyes wants all his players to do their stint in defending, with priorities being, get behind the ball first, for all players including strikers.
The typical example is defensive corners with 11 players in and around the box and no outlet.
Or running channels for the hoofball...
No, Moyes is a defensive minded tactical fanatic. Worse than that, flair seems to be all well and good as long as you don't use it... or lose the ball ? "fear me if you do" approach.
So, yep: it's work rate over flair.
Their has been NOTHING so frustrating for me to watch in the past ten years as the channel-running striker who has to hold it up while the midfield sprint from their own penalty area...
A striker belongs in the 18-yard box. Period. That's their job.
A graveyard? Yes. But I bet most of them have never worked as hard in their career for so little reward.
Too often they are expected to be the creator for midfield players coming through?
By the time they leave Goodison they are shot of confidence, exhausted or just totally pissed off or disillusioned.
Frankly I can't blame them.
One last comment. The gulf in class between Stracq and Saha is immense. I mean light years.
Yet Saha flourishes on delivery; without it, he is condemned as lazy. I think he just gave up trying in the end for Moyes, the way all strikers with ability do. As such, fans quickly see it as a lack of commitment.
Stracq on the other hand is a lumbering battering ram. But he runs, anywhere, into brick walls and tries, and tries. Law of averages dictates he will get goals, but a class striker? Never. But the fans love him because he tries when other strikers give up on Moyes.
We don't use good strikers well; we don't service them through creativity; we don't create enough chances; we don't have creativity (we drill it out of those who have it). So you end up with a high work rate philosophy, poor quality and minimal opportunity.
Sadly not a graveyard, but a production line of clones...
The typical example is defensive corners with 11 players in and around the box and no outlet.
Or running channels for the hoofball...
No, Moyes is a defensive minded tactical fanatic. Worse than that, flair seems to be all well and good as long as you don't use it... or lose the ball ? "fear me if you do" approach.
So, yep: it's work rate over flair.
Their has been NOTHING so frustrating for me to watch in the past ten years as the channel-running striker who has to hold it up while the midfield sprint from their own penalty area...
A striker belongs in the 18-yard box. Period. That's their job.
A graveyard? Yes. But I bet most of them have never worked as hard in their career for so little reward.
Too often they are expected to be the creator for midfield players coming through?
By the time they leave Goodison they are shot of confidence, exhausted or just totally pissed off or disillusioned.
Frankly I can't blame them.
One last comment. The gulf in class between Stracq and Saha is immense. I mean light years.
Yet Saha flourishes on delivery; without it, he is condemned as lazy. I think he just gave up trying in the end for Moyes, the way all strikers with ability do. As such, fans quickly see it as a lack of commitment.
Stracq on the other hand is a lumbering battering ram. But he runs, anywhere, into brick walls and tries, and tries. Law of averages dictates he will get goals, but a class striker? Never. But the fans love him because he tries when other strikers give up on Moyes.
We don't use good strikers well; we don't service them through creativity; we don't create enough chances; we don't have creativity (we drill it out of those who have it). So you end up with a high work rate philosophy, poor quality and minimal opportunity.
Sadly not a graveyard, but a production line of clones...
Phil Brown
24 Posted 24/02/2012 at 21:47:13
24 Posted 24/02/2012 at 21:47:13
Christine # 967 Agree with you totally but a battering ram allows a creative player to flourish in the space behind him - step forward Drenthe or Barkley.
El-ray Jackson
25 Posted 24/02/2012 at 21:47:45
25 Posted 24/02/2012 at 21:47:45
I was listening to one of the radio stations before AFCON kicked off. The presenter was speaking to an agent who had contact with most African players. He seemed to know Yakubu very well.
Anyway, this person said on the radio that, due to financial trouble, Everton had agreed to sell Yakubu to Spurs after the Yak had his most prolific season with us. He also said that a date to undergo a medical at Spurs had been agreed as well. As every body knows, the Yak suffered his injury and his purposed move to Spurs fell through.
The guy said Yakubu was on a real downer because Everton didn't want him and his move to Spurs did not go according to plan. He also mentioned that when Yak came back from his injury, he felt he was unwanted at the club and he was struggling to adapt as he felt that Moyes wasn't giving him the support he could have.
Just what I heard on the radio!
Anyway, this person said on the radio that, due to financial trouble, Everton had agreed to sell Yakubu to Spurs after the Yak had his most prolific season with us. He also said that a date to undergo a medical at Spurs had been agreed as well. As every body knows, the Yak suffered his injury and his purposed move to Spurs fell through.
The guy said Yakubu was on a real downer because Everton didn't want him and his move to Spurs did not go according to plan. He also mentioned that when Yak came back from his injury, he felt he was unwanted at the club and he was struggling to adapt as he felt that Moyes wasn't giving him the support he could have.
Just what I heard on the radio!
Ray Robinson
26 Posted 24/02/2012 at 22:14:46
26 Posted 24/02/2012 at 22:14:46
Christine. Spot on!
Nick Entwistle
27 Posted 24/02/2012 at 22:18:20
27 Posted 24/02/2012 at 22:18:20
France won the world cup with an ever present striker not getting on the score sheet once. He had his role, and others had theirs.
I think it's Roma who don't play with strikers at all.
I'd rather look to the league position than worry about an individual's tally. I would though point out that running the channels is a common feature for many Premier League strikers... not a punishment inflicted by Moyes on a player because he had the temerity to be born with skill.
I think it's Roma who don't play with strikers at all.
I'd rather look to the league position than worry about an individual's tally. I would though point out that running the channels is a common feature for many Premier League strikers... not a punishment inflicted by Moyes on a player because he had the temerity to be born with skill.
Kev Lucas
28 Posted 24/02/2012 at 22:46:56
28 Posted 24/02/2012 at 22:46:56
Nick.... Sense spoken!! There's always a bigger picture and you've pretty much nailed it.
Steve Carter
29 Posted 24/02/2012 at 23:11:24
29 Posted 24/02/2012 at 23:11:24
Well, Mark (948), here's where Frannie is now: http://www.theherald.com.au/news/local/sport/football-soccer/francis-jeffers-a-true-believer/2449046.aspx?storypage=0
and you can see his stats for this season here: http://www.footballaustralia.com.au/newcastlejets/players/Francis-Jeffers/4109
Trying, but not exactly setting the world on fire in and out of a team (located in rabid Rugby League territory) that's currently 5th in the 10 team A League (a league that's roughly, I suppose, around League 2 to League 1 standard overall)
and you can see his stats for this season here: http://www.footballaustralia.com.au/newcastlejets/players/Francis-Jeffers/4109
Trying, but not exactly setting the world on fire in and out of a team (located in rabid Rugby League territory) that's currently 5th in the 10 team A League (a league that's roughly, I suppose, around League 2 to League 1 standard overall)
Barry Rathbone
30 Posted 24/02/2012 at 23:05:09
30 Posted 24/02/2012 at 23:05:09
Nick Entwistle
Would that be the France team of Zidane etc?
Would that be the France team of Zidane etc?
Dave Wilson
31 Posted 24/02/2012 at 23:00:07
31 Posted 24/02/2012 at 23:00:07
I`m a little disappointed in the responses. I have clearly failed to get my point across. I was kinda hoping people would take on board the points I raised about other managers. They have all had problems with their strikers, most of them have had far more and far worse problems than Moyes.
To say Goodison is a Graveyard for Strikers is, for me, a little like criticising the guy for getting wet when it pisses down... The point I'm making is, They ALL get wet.
I also don't get this claim that Moyes forces his strikers to run the chanels and track back. Can anybody who has watched Everton closely really claim to have seen Saha, Yakubu or Beckford do those things? Na. Hard "team"-work is either in the player or it ain't. Rooney or Berbatov. Tevez or Ibrahimovich. Lineker or (dare I say it ) Rush.
Being talented should not restrict a striker's appetite for the game. He`s an athlete FFS, of course he can't be in two places at once, but his desire to be a team player, his work ethic should not ? as Tevez, Rooney and (dare I say it) Rush have repeatedly demonstrated ? restrict his ability to put the ball in the net.
IMO, "work" is rapidly becoming a word Davey Moyes`s critics are using to beat him with. I dont get it ? Has demanding 100% become a bad thing?
How often do you see a crowd rise as one to applaud a striker who has just chased back to win possession? And who doesn't feel sick with envy when the "Rooney, Rooney" chant rings around Old Trafford, after he has just chased back 40-50 yards to snuff out an attack?
When Christine say`s Saha is light years ahead of Stracqualursi in terms of ability, few would argue, but who would bet against Straq getting more goals between now and the end of the season? Limited he may be, but he`s loved by Goodison already... and there is a very good reason for that.
It seems managers and crowds up and down the country share The Almighty`s love of a trier... but when Davey Moyes asks for 100%, he's a PE teacher.
Like I say, I dont get it.
To say Goodison is a Graveyard for Strikers is, for me, a little like criticising the guy for getting wet when it pisses down... The point I'm making is, They ALL get wet.
I also don't get this claim that Moyes forces his strikers to run the chanels and track back. Can anybody who has watched Everton closely really claim to have seen Saha, Yakubu or Beckford do those things? Na. Hard "team"-work is either in the player or it ain't. Rooney or Berbatov. Tevez or Ibrahimovich. Lineker or (dare I say it ) Rush.
Being talented should not restrict a striker's appetite for the game. He`s an athlete FFS, of course he can't be in two places at once, but his desire to be a team player, his work ethic should not ? as Tevez, Rooney and (dare I say it) Rush have repeatedly demonstrated ? restrict his ability to put the ball in the net.
IMO, "work" is rapidly becoming a word Davey Moyes`s critics are using to beat him with. I dont get it ? Has demanding 100% become a bad thing?
How often do you see a crowd rise as one to applaud a striker who has just chased back to win possession? And who doesn't feel sick with envy when the "Rooney, Rooney" chant rings around Old Trafford, after he has just chased back 40-50 yards to snuff out an attack?
When Christine say`s Saha is light years ahead of Stracqualursi in terms of ability, few would argue, but who would bet against Straq getting more goals between now and the end of the season? Limited he may be, but he`s loved by Goodison already... and there is a very good reason for that.
It seems managers and crowds up and down the country share The Almighty`s love of a trier... but when Davey Moyes asks for 100%, he's a PE teacher.
Like I say, I dont get it.
James Flynn
32 Posted 25/02/2012 at 01:44:29
32 Posted 25/02/2012 at 01:44:29
Dave (991) - I think true predators who produce consistently are so far and few-between (Dean, Pele, Henry, Van Nistelroyd, both Ronaldos), we can understand why so much money is thrown at them and their signing are trumpeted to the heavens.
The problem, of course, is the strikers who possess the same physical qualities are touted as the next whoever or the next "Thing" and most don't measure up. Which is most.
My take on EFC these three seasons I'm in here? When we have the players to control a midfield, we control it and attack; what I've been seeing these last few weeks.
Teams generally luck into a Dean-type. Even with money-bagged ownership, if Goodison's a graveyard, most other grounds are too.
COYB
Kenwright OUT!
The problem, of course, is the strikers who possess the same physical qualities are touted as the next whoever or the next "Thing" and most don't measure up. Which is most.
My take on EFC these three seasons I'm in here? When we have the players to control a midfield, we control it and attack; what I've been seeing these last few weeks.
Teams generally luck into a Dean-type. Even with money-bagged ownership, if Goodison's a graveyard, most other grounds are too.
COYB
Kenwright OUT!
Derek Thomas
33 Posted 25/02/2012 at 05:46:44
33 Posted 25/02/2012 at 05:46:44
It could be Dave you don't get it because you are trying to defend Moyeses doing of a,b,c, with a half hearted, Smith, Jones and Brown do a,b,c, so don't blame Davey for doing it as well.
He does it, they (all) do it... so what! Two wrongs don't make it right.
It is not the striker's main job and too much insistance in doing too much of stuff that is not his 'core duty' leads to strikers giving away stupid fouls or worse, of not being in position to do his job.
Defending from the front is all well and good, but, in the forward(s) case, should be restricted to keeping an eye on the keeper so as to disuade him from giving an uncontested ball to a player near to him, say a full back or a mid fielder who has dropped back to pick it up 5yds outside the box... cut out the short one used to be the cry.
This then forces the keeper to hoof it up field, where it is 50-50 as to what happens then... It's all about the ball. Stopping them from having it. I have yet to see a team score without it (OG's don't count).
Proper defending from the front means they can't play it out from the back and we all accept that playing it out from the back is good?? don't we???
I wouldn't say that Moyes outright ruins strikers just that his whole ethos is not striker friendly.
He does it, they (all) do it... so what! Two wrongs don't make it right.
It is not the striker's main job and too much insistance in doing too much of stuff that is not his 'core duty' leads to strikers giving away stupid fouls or worse, of not being in position to do his job.
Defending from the front is all well and good, but, in the forward(s) case, should be restricted to keeping an eye on the keeper so as to disuade him from giving an uncontested ball to a player near to him, say a full back or a mid fielder who has dropped back to pick it up 5yds outside the box... cut out the short one used to be the cry.
This then forces the keeper to hoof it up field, where it is 50-50 as to what happens then... It's all about the ball. Stopping them from having it. I have yet to see a team score without it (OG's don't count).
Proper defending from the front means they can't play it out from the back and we all accept that playing it out from the back is good?? don't we???
I wouldn't say that Moyes outright ruins strikers just that his whole ethos is not striker friendly.
Paul Andrews
34 Posted 25/02/2012 at 07:02:01
34 Posted 25/02/2012 at 07:02:01
It is not rocket science, Dave. If the manager's first thoughts are on keeping it tight, defend what we start with and hope to score from a set piece, it stands to reason the lone forward will have less chances created for him.
Lineker would struggle to get 15 goals in the current mindset of the manager.
Lineker would struggle to get 15 goals in the current mindset of the manager.
Michael Kenrick
35 Posted 25/02/2012 at 07:10:30
35 Posted 25/02/2012 at 07:10:30
On the contrary, Dave (991), I think there are some excellent responses on here and they are the ones that nail the philosophy Moyes infuses into his players. It's negativity, pure and simple.
Not what you wanted to hear, of course, but all that blather about other managers and other clubs cuts no ice at all. This is Everton, and his "knife to a gunfight" bullshit remains a total disgrace to the name and the traditions of this once-great club.
Not what you wanted to hear, of course, but all that blather about other managers and other clubs cuts no ice at all. This is Everton, and his "knife to a gunfight" bullshit remains a total disgrace to the name and the traditions of this once-great club.
Michael Kenrick
36 Posted 25/02/2012 at 07:29:22
36 Posted 25/02/2012 at 07:29:22
Does anyone else understand that story from El-ray Jackson (#972) about Yakubu?
If true, it would have to have been immediately after his first brilliant season, so August 2008.Yet there was never even a sniff of Spurs being interested in him.
However, the transfer window closed on 1 September, when we famously scooped up Marouane Fellaini (what money troubles???), and the Yak did not blow his Achillies until November 2008, so how could that have affected the deal?
It doesn't make any sense, does it? Or am I missing something?
If true, it would have to have been immediately after his first brilliant season, so August 2008.Yet there was never even a sniff of Spurs being interested in him.
However, the transfer window closed on 1 September, when we famously scooped up Marouane Fellaini (what money troubles???), and the Yak did not blow his Achillies until November 2008, so how could that have affected the deal?
It doesn't make any sense, does it? Or am I missing something?
Jim Slade
37 Posted 25/02/2012 at 07:56:41
37 Posted 25/02/2012 at 07:56:41
Pointless drivel. This post will only give the Moyes haters more platform to spew shite. Mikel Madar out!
Jim Slade
38 Posted 25/02/2012 at 08:09:51
38 Posted 25/02/2012 at 08:09:51
Michael Kenrick - you sound like a spoilt child , give it up man!
"total disgrace to the name and traditions pf this once great club"
Who do you think you are representing?
I think you are a tad deluded.
Find yourself a hobby or take a nice hot bath.
"total disgrace to the name and traditions pf this once great club"
Who do you think you are representing?
I think you are a tad deluded.
Find yourself a hobby or take a nice hot bath.
Martin Mason
39 Posted 25/02/2012 at 08:15:45
39 Posted 25/02/2012 at 08:15:45
It's a thankless task being a lone striker in a 4-5-1 systemunless you have very good fast wide midfielders or a scoring midfielder of the Cahill model to help out. Myes is inherently negative and will always play 4-5-1 even without the good wide meen and the lone striker has no chance of scoring. When Cahill was picking up goals the dour 4-5-1 system worked well, we had a spell when Arteta played on the wide right and we played some magnificent stuff and scored goals. More often than not though our negative formations and playing defenders in midfield gives a lone striker no chance but it isn't the striker's fault but our lack of genuinely good midfielders and Moye's known tactical inflexibility. With Donovan and Pienaar our strikers have scored at a rate which isn't bad for the EPL.
4-5-1 doesn't have to be a strikers's graveyard but our 4-5-1 has been and has been the death of many potentially good strikers. 4-5-1 doesn't have to be negative neither, it should be the most flexible. Catterick played a lot of 4-5-1 but Royle was a perfect target man and with Morissey and Husband wide and Ball, Harvey and Kendall in the middle 4-5-1 could be sublime.
This isn't a Moye's bash btw, I believe that he plays negative formations because he believes we aren't good enough in midfield to avoid being annihilated by better teams. He has tried 4-4-2 and we do badly with it so he may be right sometimes. If we can keep clear of injuries though and get our loan players tied sown on contracts we could have the players to enable Moyes to be more adventurous. Like most though I'd be staggered if he did push the boat out, it's just not in his DNA.
4-5-1 doesn't have to be a strikers's graveyard but our 4-5-1 has been and has been the death of many potentially good strikers. 4-5-1 doesn't have to be negative neither, it should be the most flexible. Catterick played a lot of 4-5-1 but Royle was a perfect target man and with Morissey and Husband wide and Ball, Harvey and Kendall in the middle 4-5-1 could be sublime.
This isn't a Moye's bash btw, I believe that he plays negative formations because he believes we aren't good enough in midfield to avoid being annihilated by better teams. He has tried 4-4-2 and we do badly with it so he may be right sometimes. If we can keep clear of injuries though and get our loan players tied sown on contracts we could have the players to enable Moyes to be more adventurous. Like most though I'd be staggered if he did push the boat out, it's just not in his DNA.
Sam Hoare
40 Posted 25/02/2012 at 08:48:51
40 Posted 25/02/2012 at 08:48:51
No striker has to move to a club if they don't want to. It has been clear from pretty much the start that moyes favors a 451 with a hard working team that will look to keep games tight and capitalize on one or two chances.
If they didn't fancy it they shouldn't come. Not sure why we are trying to help the players relieve themselves of responsibility.
If they didn't fancy it they shouldn't come. Not sure why we are trying to help the players relieve themselves of responsibility.
Derek Thomas
41 Posted 25/02/2012 at 08:53:00
41 Posted 25/02/2012 at 08:53:00
Michael 010; I remember the Yak going to Spurs rumours at the time, can't remember who what and where, but they were about.Then the injury put the kibosh on it.
None of which detracts from Moyeses preoccupation with not attacking when defending can give you the one point you start with.
None of which detracts from Moyeses preoccupation with not attacking when defending can give you the one point you start with.
Steve O'Malley
42 Posted 25/02/2012 at 08:42:50
42 Posted 25/02/2012 at 08:42:50
Christine 967. I only wish that others on here were as unemotional and controlled in their responses as you are. It's a pleasant change from some of the mindless crap you read.
PS you are 100 percent correct. As I have said on numerous occasions even Van Persie would go backwards at Everton because he would only spend half as much time in the opposition box, the rest of the time he would be in his own box or making his way back.
I for one never saw Saha as lazy, he was a class above most taking the field in a blue shirt. Saha's problem was lack of quality service and Moyes's tactics.
Regardless of the latest performances, which have at least offered a bit of light at the end of the tunnel, I would not be sad to see Moyes go.
PS you are 100 percent correct. As I have said on numerous occasions even Van Persie would go backwards at Everton because he would only spend half as much time in the opposition box, the rest of the time he would be in his own box or making his way back.
I for one never saw Saha as lazy, he was a class above most taking the field in a blue shirt. Saha's problem was lack of quality service and Moyes's tactics.
Regardless of the latest performances, which have at least offered a bit of light at the end of the tunnel, I would not be sad to see Moyes go.
Ciarán McGlone
43 Posted 25/02/2012 at 09:48:00
43 Posted 25/02/2012 at 09:48:00
Dave,
You dance and prevaricate around your own question with alarming dexterity, then casually throw in a absolute fabrication.
None of those strikers you mention in your third last paragraph had 'their best season under Moyes'.
You dance and prevaricate around your own question with alarming dexterity, then casually throw in a absolute fabrication.
None of those strikers you mention in your third last paragraph had 'their best season under Moyes'.
Trevor Lynes
44 Posted 25/02/2012 at 09:51:43
44 Posted 25/02/2012 at 09:51:43
Strikers ALWAYS score more when played in PAIRS!! How many times have I said this obvious fact over the past seasons ? EVERY striker needs a foil, even Shearer would have withered at Goodison and its the way we play that stifles them. Most strikers do just that and are not expected to be wide runners and work alone... without creativity, no striker can be a success.
Saha blossomed at Spurs with Adebayor; Shearer worked alongside Ameobi and all our good strikers from the past worked with partners, eg: Lineker and Sharp; Young and Vernon. All of the top sides have pairs working in tandem.
I believe that none of the top strikers would be a success at Goodison because of the style of play we use. I said a while ago that Beckford should have played with Saha and someone in the midfield who could really create something.
We rely on Baines crosses and dead ball situations too much... we are crying out for a decent provider like Modric, Silva etc even Murphy at Fulham is a better provider than anyone we have. I would take old man Scholes even if just for a season, he might be able to school our midfielders in the art of long and through passing.
Arteta at Arsenal is doing nothing as far as I'm concerned... he just short-passes and creates nothing. Pienaar is a great worker but his passing is mediocre. We need just one decent midfield schemer and then we will get the best out of our strikers so long as they are played in pairs... Simple!
Saha blossomed at Spurs with Adebayor; Shearer worked alongside Ameobi and all our good strikers from the past worked with partners, eg: Lineker and Sharp; Young and Vernon. All of the top sides have pairs working in tandem.
I believe that none of the top strikers would be a success at Goodison because of the style of play we use. I said a while ago that Beckford should have played with Saha and someone in the midfield who could really create something.
We rely on Baines crosses and dead ball situations too much... we are crying out for a decent provider like Modric, Silva etc even Murphy at Fulham is a better provider than anyone we have. I would take old man Scholes even if just for a season, he might be able to school our midfielders in the art of long and through passing.
Arteta at Arsenal is doing nothing as far as I'm concerned... he just short-passes and creates nothing. Pienaar is a great worker but his passing is mediocre. We need just one decent midfield schemer and then we will get the best out of our strikers so long as they are played in pairs... Simple!
Sam Hoare
45 Posted 25/02/2012 at 09:59:42
45 Posted 25/02/2012 at 09:59:42
Steve, Saha may not have been lazy but he certainly didn't get around as much as Denis does. The system we play requires a hard-working striker who (surprise surprise!) probably won't get as many chances as a striker at Arsenal. No news flash here.
Christine Foster
46 Posted 25/02/2012 at 10:07:14
46 Posted 25/02/2012 at 10:07:14
Work rate will only get you so far, Moyes knows this. We all should know this. Work rate alone will not win over work rate and flair.
Can they be combined? What is the point of buying (borrowing) flair players and then making them adopt a philosphy that is alien to them?? Not only that, why not just get a few good workhorses who run themselves into the floor every game? You end up with the same result.
Drenthe is unpredictable, which is an asset as well as a pain. Making him predicatable means he loses his advantage and I guess that's the point: Donovan, Drenthe, Peanuts... run, position, cover.
Strikers the same... I remember Yakubu, Beckford, Johnson, Vaughan, Beattie ? ALL running channels AND crossing balls from the corner flag CONSISTENTLY!!! When THEY should have been in the middle on the other end. How many times have we seen our strikers holding balls (may as well) at the corner flag waiting for help?
4-5-1 ONLY works if the stiker is in the box and wide men deliver in ? NOT the other way round.
Can they be combined? What is the point of buying (borrowing) flair players and then making them adopt a philosphy that is alien to them?? Not only that, why not just get a few good workhorses who run themselves into the floor every game? You end up with the same result.
Drenthe is unpredictable, which is an asset as well as a pain. Making him predicatable means he loses his advantage and I guess that's the point: Donovan, Drenthe, Peanuts... run, position, cover.
Strikers the same... I remember Yakubu, Beckford, Johnson, Vaughan, Beattie ? ALL running channels AND crossing balls from the corner flag CONSISTENTLY!!! When THEY should have been in the middle on the other end. How many times have we seen our strikers holding balls (may as well) at the corner flag waiting for help?
4-5-1 ONLY works if the stiker is in the box and wide men deliver in ? NOT the other way round.
Nick Entwistle
47 Posted 25/02/2012 at 10:31:56
47 Posted 25/02/2012 at 10:31:56
You're right as usual Christine. If only we could have seen Baines, Drenthe, Pienaar, Coleman, Donovan, Gueye and Osman crossing from the corner flag this season. Never ever ever happens... oh wait. We do.
Sam Hoare
48 Posted 25/02/2012 at 10:44:20
48 Posted 25/02/2012 at 10:44:20
Christine, it's not impossible to have flair and to work hard. Look at the likes of Rooney and Tevez. It's also possible to be organised defensively and unpredictable offensively.
But, if you have a team based around work ethic and everyone putting in a shift, then it's hard to carry passengers, so any flair players need to work hard too. This has happened with the likes of Pienaar, Arteta and Gravesen.
But, if you have a team based around work ethic and everyone putting in a shift, then it's hard to carry passengers, so any flair players need to work hard too. This has happened with the likes of Pienaar, Arteta and Gravesen.
Barry Rathbone
49 Posted 25/02/2012 at 10:32:23
49 Posted 25/02/2012 at 10:32:23
Dave Wilson
Rooney chasing back just doesn't happen anymore, he mooches around, looking like he's doing fuck all actually, but he's conserving energy for when it's needed.
A winger who played for West Brom among others once told me if you're a forward running round like a maniac all the time there's nothing left for the important bit ? scoring.
Moyes plays a defensive game working the ollies off the forward ? it really is as simple as that.
Rooney chasing back just doesn't happen anymore, he mooches around, looking like he's doing fuck all actually, but he's conserving energy for when it's needed.
A winger who played for West Brom among others once told me if you're a forward running round like a maniac all the time there's nothing left for the important bit ? scoring.
Moyes plays a defensive game working the ollies off the forward ? it really is as simple as that.
Al Reddish
50 Posted 25/02/2012 at 11:14:08
50 Posted 25/02/2012 at 11:14:08
"A winger who played for West Brom among others once told me if you're a forward running round like a maniac all the time there's nothing left for the important bit ? scoring."
I disagree with the above as I remember a certain Ian Rush being the first forward in my era to chase everything and 'defend from the front'. It was unusual for forwards to do this in them days but I don't think it did his strike rate any harm... the twat!
I disagree with the above as I remember a certain Ian Rush being the first forward in my era to chase everything and 'defend from the front'. It was unusual for forwards to do this in them days but I don't think it did his strike rate any harm... the twat!
Jimmy Sørheim
51 Posted 25/02/2012 at 09:41:35
51 Posted 25/02/2012 at 09:41:35
Saha could not hit an open goal when he was afforded the ball. His shots on goal have been the lowest ever this season. Out of 50 shots he only scored once, dont tell me that is just because of bad distribution.
A striker has to score and sometimes he has to work to get the ball in a good enough position. I doubt Saha will suddenly explode with Spurs and score more then 10 goals. If he does, it will be from ready scored tap-ins that Modric and others hand him.
A striker has to score and sometimes he has to work to get the ball in a good enough position. I doubt Saha will suddenly explode with Spurs and score more then 10 goals. If he does, it will be from ready scored tap-ins that Modric and others hand him.
Robbie Muldoon
52 Posted 25/02/2012 at 11:20:22
52 Posted 25/02/2012 at 11:20:22
What a load of bollocks as the first post demonstrates. If I was a striker, I wouldn't want to play under Moyes.
Kevin Sparke
53 Posted 25/02/2012 at 10:44:08
53 Posted 25/02/2012 at 10:44:08
James Beattie ? if he was half as good as kicking the ball into the back of the net as he was at twatting punters in nightclubs he'd have been a decent player. Thing about Beattie, he was still getting chances, lots of them, and I lost count of the balloon over the bars, pathetic headed misses from 4 yards, and flimsy powder-puff shooting. Some players just seem to do it for one club and at Southampton he clicked. At Everton, he was worse than Alan Biley...
AJ ? fantastic pace and again had a shedful of chances most games but either took the wrong decision or was wrestled to the ground. That twat Wenger did for AJ, he stopped getting penalties, even nailed-on certain penalties, and that took half his goal tally and caused his confidence to crash. I liked AJ.
Yakubu ? bad injury to his Achillies; most players don't get over that and if they do it takes a long time... many months up to a year and then rehabilitation. I'm surprised he's still playing. His most prolific season was playing for Everton... under David Moyes... playing 4-5-1. Seemed to resent the manager asking him to work and was carrying at least half a stone in bacon butties. Apart from one derby game, he seemed to give up on Everton or Moyes. His exploits at Blackburn suggest to me that Moyes was wrong to let him go and I probably agree... but if Yak didn't want to do it for us anymore, for whatever reason, he had no place putting on that blue shirt...
Saha ? brilliant cultured striker; always sick and probably at the swan song of his career... let go at the right time as he was still getting chances but not putting them away. I'll never forget that Wembley goal, Louis, but it was time to move on...
Bent ? limited player but suited to playing 4-5-1... but 7 goals in 55 appearances isn't good enough; has done fuck all since...
Beckford ? 8 goals in 34 appearances... rumour has it he never got on with Moyes or half the dressing room. One of the things that Moyes gets spot on, is instil team ethic and the players working as a unit; Beckford was a threat to this and so he was moved on (he was out of his depth anyway). He has scored 3 goals in 24 matches for Leicester City, which suggest Moyes was right...
Anichebe ? at times he looks like he's got the potential to be the next Justin Fashanu circa 1980, but most of the time he plays like Justin Timberlake...
Vaughan ? what potential that lad had, a career ruined by injury...
In short: Everton ? not quite a striker's graveyard... but not a happy hunting ground.
AJ ? fantastic pace and again had a shedful of chances most games but either took the wrong decision or was wrestled to the ground. That twat Wenger did for AJ, he stopped getting penalties, even nailed-on certain penalties, and that took half his goal tally and caused his confidence to crash. I liked AJ.
Yakubu ? bad injury to his Achillies; most players don't get over that and if they do it takes a long time... many months up to a year and then rehabilitation. I'm surprised he's still playing. His most prolific season was playing for Everton... under David Moyes... playing 4-5-1. Seemed to resent the manager asking him to work and was carrying at least half a stone in bacon butties. Apart from one derby game, he seemed to give up on Everton or Moyes. His exploits at Blackburn suggest to me that Moyes was wrong to let him go and I probably agree... but if Yak didn't want to do it for us anymore, for whatever reason, he had no place putting on that blue shirt...
Saha ? brilliant cultured striker; always sick and probably at the swan song of his career... let go at the right time as he was still getting chances but not putting them away. I'll never forget that Wembley goal, Louis, but it was time to move on...
Bent ? limited player but suited to playing 4-5-1... but 7 goals in 55 appearances isn't good enough; has done fuck all since...
Beckford ? 8 goals in 34 appearances... rumour has it he never got on with Moyes or half the dressing room. One of the things that Moyes gets spot on, is instil team ethic and the players working as a unit; Beckford was a threat to this and so he was moved on (he was out of his depth anyway). He has scored 3 goals in 24 matches for Leicester City, which suggest Moyes was right...
Anichebe ? at times he looks like he's got the potential to be the next Justin Fashanu circa 1980, but most of the time he plays like Justin Timberlake...
Vaughan ? what potential that lad had, a career ruined by injury...
In short: Everton ? not quite a striker's graveyard... but not a happy hunting ground.
Christine Foster
54 Posted 25/02/2012 at 13:03:37
54 Posted 25/02/2012 at 13:03:37
Nick, in context not one of the strikers l mentioned had the service of the players you mention, l would add your list of flair players HAVE to conform to the work ethic l mentioned in my first post. Hence work rate over flair. Donovan for me is the best crosser in that list but he was more often found defending than attacking, required work rate and all that...
Sarcastic as ever Nick.. You make the point that we have a few flair players who can deliver a ball, totally agree. When they are in the right half of the pitch of course and not on our own corner flag...
That's the issue though, isn't it? The flair we have is sacrificed on the altar of work rate.
Sarcastic as ever Nick.. You make the point that we have a few flair players who can deliver a ball, totally agree. When they are in the right half of the pitch of course and not on our own corner flag...
That's the issue though, isn't it? The flair we have is sacrificed on the altar of work rate.
Arthur Westhead
55 Posted 25/02/2012 at 13:33:20
55 Posted 25/02/2012 at 13:33:20
Christine, your earlier post is absolutely spot on. Agree with every word. It's what many people I know are saying constantly.
As for Nick's response ? what is he on about? Donovan was here for a few weeks and is now back on the beach enjoying the sun. Pienaar has played 2 games. Ossie currently injured and even when playing I don't remember too many great crosses from him.
Coleman is a hardworking full back playing wide and that is exactly what he looks like. Drenthe is the one true flair player and he only played last week because of injuries. Gueye has had only two starts.
That leaves the ever relied upon Baines who has been our only attacking threat.
As for Nick's response ? what is he on about? Donovan was here for a few weeks and is now back on the beach enjoying the sun. Pienaar has played 2 games. Ossie currently injured and even when playing I don't remember too many great crosses from him.
Coleman is a hardworking full back playing wide and that is exactly what he looks like. Drenthe is the one true flair player and he only played last week because of injuries. Gueye has had only two starts.
That leaves the ever relied upon Baines who has been our only attacking threat.
Nick Entwistle
56 Posted 25/02/2012 at 14:18:13
56 Posted 25/02/2012 at 14:18:13
I'm only sarcastic when people are blind to a little balance or objectivity. I feel it evens up the nonsense.
Dave Wilson
57 Posted 25/02/2012 at 13:03:48
57 Posted 25/02/2012 at 13:03:48
To say work rate and flair will always win over work rate alone, is, IMO merely stating the obvious.
Its preposterous to suggest that anyone who is blessed with a touch of flair should not be expected to sweat blood for the team. Hard work can improve ANY player, make a shite player average, an average player good and a good player excellent. These guys make a fortune and before a ball is kicked, it should be a given that they will sweat blood for the cause.
A patient fan will always make allowances for the guy who can do things with a ball that he couldn't, but Flair alone will never cut it with a manager. That's the reason why players like Adam Johnson, Berbatov, Defoe, spend so much time on the bench.
The fan would soon alter his mindset if he was the guy employed to get results. When we older guys shook our heads when "The Golden Vision" was dropped or when Magic Duncan was dragged off so lumbering Mick Lyons could be thrown up top, we knew it wasn't because they lacked flair.
All the best players have this work ethic, Those who don't may dazzle us occasionally, but in today's game they will never find season after season consistency, they will never be the player they should have been.
I've given up asking if Moyes is the only manager to have trouble with his strikers. I`d be delighted if somebody could name me a manager who hasn't... but I don't think anybody will, I don't think anybody can.
Goodison the graveyard for strikers? ... You're having a laff. There are better examples at just about every top club in the EPL. You only have to look across the park, where three of the most potent finishes in the modern game (Torres, Owen and Fowler) looked as if they could go on to break all goalscoring records... they were all finished in their mid-twenties.
Its preposterous to suggest that anyone who is blessed with a touch of flair should not be expected to sweat blood for the team. Hard work can improve ANY player, make a shite player average, an average player good and a good player excellent. These guys make a fortune and before a ball is kicked, it should be a given that they will sweat blood for the cause.
A patient fan will always make allowances for the guy who can do things with a ball that he couldn't, but Flair alone will never cut it with a manager. That's the reason why players like Adam Johnson, Berbatov, Defoe, spend so much time on the bench.
The fan would soon alter his mindset if he was the guy employed to get results. When we older guys shook our heads when "The Golden Vision" was dropped or when Magic Duncan was dragged off so lumbering Mick Lyons could be thrown up top, we knew it wasn't because they lacked flair.
All the best players have this work ethic, Those who don't may dazzle us occasionally, but in today's game they will never find season after season consistency, they will never be the player they should have been.
I've given up asking if Moyes is the only manager to have trouble with his strikers. I`d be delighted if somebody could name me a manager who hasn't... but I don't think anybody will, I don't think anybody can.
Goodison the graveyard for strikers? ... You're having a laff. There are better examples at just about every top club in the EPL. You only have to look across the park, where three of the most potent finishes in the modern game (Torres, Owen and Fowler) looked as if they could go on to break all goalscoring records... they were all finished in their mid-twenties.
Jimmy Kelly
58 Posted 25/02/2012 at 14:50:58
58 Posted 25/02/2012 at 14:50:58
I'm struggling with this idea that Blackburn are somehow reaping the benefits of setting the team up to play to Yakubu's strengths.
If he scores 20 this season but they go down has it worked? Or would they have been better with a hard working striker who scored 10 and helped them defensively and ran the channels?
Maybe that was how Moyes saw it.
If he scores 20 this season but they go down has it worked? Or would they have been better with a hard working striker who scored 10 and helped them defensively and ran the channels?
Maybe that was how Moyes saw it.
Dave Wilson
59 Posted 25/02/2012 at 14:49:35
59 Posted 25/02/2012 at 14:49:35
Barry #039
"Rooney chasing back doesnt happen anymore." ? I take it you didn't see him at GP his season? He spent more time guarding his own area than he did attacking ours.
Derek
You're right of course; two wrongs do not make a right ... but ignoring the fact that it happens everywhere else doesn't make it right either.
"Rooney chasing back doesnt happen anymore." ? I take it you didn't see him at GP his season? He spent more time guarding his own area than he did attacking ours.
Derek
You're right of course; two wrongs do not make a right ... but ignoring the fact that it happens everywhere else doesn't make it right either.
Stephen Kenny
60 Posted 25/02/2012 at 15:42:09
60 Posted 25/02/2012 at 15:42:09
Jim Slade,
I think it's you that's deluded if you don't think his shithouse comments sparked fury in plenty of Evertonians.
I thought they were a disgrace and he should have been sacked.
I think it's you that's deluded if you don't think his shithouse comments sparked fury in plenty of Evertonians.
I thought they were a disgrace and he should have been sacked.
Stephen Kenny
61 Posted 25/02/2012 at 15:48:26
61 Posted 25/02/2012 at 15:48:26
Dave,
Strikers are usually big headed and greedy with a bit of an ego. All managers will have problems with them from time to time.
I think the fair question is this;
Looking at the top group of sides which of their managers have had trouble getting the best out of strikers they have bought to be the main man and get the goals?
Ferguson - I really can't think of many who have failed to score there. Biram Diouf and Forlan are the only ones I can think of and they were never the number 1 pick. For near enough the whole of his reign they have had at least one striker scoring 20 a season, sometimes more.
Wenger - Again he has always had a 20 goal a season man. They may have even paid less than us for their best 3 in recent times, Henry, Adebayor and RVP.
The shite - Only recently do they seem to have trouble. Dogshit isn't playing to Carroll's strengths and there's some grumbles being aired about it.
Chelsea - In some ways they were similar to us as they were largely set up to take advantage of Lampards game. Drogba would sacrifice himself for the team. Due to his own immense talent he can still score regular. He is IMO the best forward in world football if you favour 4-5-1.
Spurs - Always have had good goalscorers. Berbatov, Keane, Defoe and now Adebayor(should) have got 20 or more.
To be fair all those sides bar Arsenal have spent big and can buy the players needed to create lots of chances. We haven't has such a luxury,but as Blackpool and Swansea have shown you can change the emphasis without spending a fortune.
We aren't set up to score big. We won't ever score 60-80 goals a season the way we play. It's mostly cautious but at times negative.
Moyes himself said he weren't bothered if we don't score more than two goals in a game.
For so long we focused on our strength, which was defending and set-pieces.
Frustration only set in because we stopped being able to defend well.
If your an ambitious striker at a mid-level club who want's to make a name for themselves and score a load, Everton's not the club for you. If your that same player and you want to be a part of a successful(ish) side with potential and you care more about being part of a good side then Everton probably is the right club.
I would say Moyes see's a striker more as the first line of defence rather than the teeth of the dog. For 6/7 of the last 10yrs that suited us.
Strikers are usually big headed and greedy with a bit of an ego. All managers will have problems with them from time to time.
I think the fair question is this;
Looking at the top group of sides which of their managers have had trouble getting the best out of strikers they have bought to be the main man and get the goals?
Ferguson - I really can't think of many who have failed to score there. Biram Diouf and Forlan are the only ones I can think of and they were never the number 1 pick. For near enough the whole of his reign they have had at least one striker scoring 20 a season, sometimes more.
Wenger - Again he has always had a 20 goal a season man. They may have even paid less than us for their best 3 in recent times, Henry, Adebayor and RVP.
The shite - Only recently do they seem to have trouble. Dogshit isn't playing to Carroll's strengths and there's some grumbles being aired about it.
Chelsea - In some ways they were similar to us as they were largely set up to take advantage of Lampards game. Drogba would sacrifice himself for the team. Due to his own immense talent he can still score regular. He is IMO the best forward in world football if you favour 4-5-1.
Spurs - Always have had good goalscorers. Berbatov, Keane, Defoe and now Adebayor(should) have got 20 or more.
To be fair all those sides bar Arsenal have spent big and can buy the players needed to create lots of chances. We haven't has such a luxury,but as Blackpool and Swansea have shown you can change the emphasis without spending a fortune.
We aren't set up to score big. We won't ever score 60-80 goals a season the way we play. It's mostly cautious but at times negative.
Moyes himself said he weren't bothered if we don't score more than two goals in a game.
For so long we focused on our strength, which was defending and set-pieces.
Frustration only set in because we stopped being able to defend well.
If your an ambitious striker at a mid-level club who want's to make a name for themselves and score a load, Everton's not the club for you. If your that same player and you want to be a part of a successful(ish) side with potential and you care more about being part of a good side then Everton probably is the right club.
I would say Moyes see's a striker more as the first line of defence rather than the teeth of the dog. For 6/7 of the last 10yrs that suited us.
Andy Crooks
62 Posted 25/02/2012 at 19:38:31
62 Posted 25/02/2012 at 19:38:31
Dave, all great players have flair and work ethic. It is what defines them. Sometimes we mistake very good for great. Messi is great, so were Zidane and Best... Lineker was very good. So, I'd take one very good player in the side who doesn't necessarily have a great work ethic. David Moyes seems reluctant to do so. Would Lineker, who didn't track back much, have been the first choice on Moyes's team sheet?
Nick Entwistle
63 Posted 25/02/2012 at 20:03:11
63 Posted 25/02/2012 at 20:03:11
Best had work rate? I've only seen the usual clips of him, but I can't imagine him putting in the shift of Nobby Styles.
Guy Hastings
64 Posted 25/02/2012 at 20:15:31
64 Posted 25/02/2012 at 20:15:31
Nick - I saw Best play on a few occasions: hard as nails, could take it (and dish it out, too), went looking for the ball and worked his fucking socks off. A 50/50 between him and Stiles (who I always reckoned)? I'd put my money on Best - he'd do something with the ball when he won it, too,
Guy Hastings
65 Posted 25/02/2012 at 20:26:22
65 Posted 25/02/2012 at 20:26:22
Mark Stone - with you 100% on AJ.
Richard Tarleton
66 Posted 25/02/2012 at 20:41:36
66 Posted 25/02/2012 at 20:41:36
I saw Best many times at Goodison and Anfield, he never got the better of Ray Wilson, but at the other side of the park he was awesome. Law was the man who did the damage at Goodison.
Paul Andrews
67 Posted 25/02/2012 at 22:13:40
67 Posted 25/02/2012 at 22:13:40
Guy,
George Best could have played any position on the park.
An absolute genius with a tough streak. Make no mistake, Bestie could go into a tackle with the biggest and the toughest, and normally come out with the ball. Greatest player to ever play football in Britain.
George Best could have played any position on the park.
An absolute genius with a tough streak. Make no mistake, Bestie could go into a tackle with the biggest and the toughest, and normally come out with the ball. Greatest player to ever play football in Britain.
Noel Lynam
68 Posted 26/02/2012 at 00:43:26
68 Posted 26/02/2012 at 00:43:26
"Strikers ALWAYS score more when played in PAIRS!! "
Torres at Liverpool, Van Persie at Arsenal, AJ at Palace. All scored plenty without having to play in a pair.
Personally, the "hard work" I like to see in a striker is them working their bollocks off to find space, elude defenders, link up play and get on the end of crosses and through balls. Scoring is the hardest thing in football. That's what I believe they need to work at.
Torres at Liverpool, Van Persie at Arsenal, AJ at Palace. All scored plenty without having to play in a pair.
Personally, the "hard work" I like to see in a striker is them working their bollocks off to find space, elude defenders, link up play and get on the end of crosses and through balls. Scoring is the hardest thing in football. That's what I believe they need to work at.
Roman Sidey
69 Posted 26/02/2012 at 05:57:05
69 Posted 26/02/2012 at 05:57:05
Michael, the way I read that story about Yakubu was that we'd probably agreed to sell him in January. I might be wrong, but that's how I read it, and to think that we had just spent three times too much on a midfielder adds to the idea that we needed to sell. I think Yakubu in 2008 without the achilles injury would have been scary.
Dave, good article, but I do think Moyes is clueless in getting the most out of strikers.
So many things being missed in these responses. Here's some:
- Strac is probably going to have a higher work rate than Saha because he is 9 years younger than the Frenchman.
- Other managers may have buggered up with strikers, but I care what Everton's manager does with strikers. The managers that are successful and 'great managers' may stuff up, but they usually have a few good strikers to counter it. Sure, Ferguson has Berbatov, who despite scoring a shitload of goals for them, is seen as a failure. Well, lucky he's got Rooney and Chicharito there to take up the slack.
Dave, good article, but I do think Moyes is clueless in getting the most out of strikers.
So many things being missed in these responses. Here's some:
- Strac is probably going to have a higher work rate than Saha because he is 9 years younger than the Frenchman.
- Other managers may have buggered up with strikers, but I care what Everton's manager does with strikers. The managers that are successful and 'great managers' may stuff up, but they usually have a few good strikers to counter it. Sure, Ferguson has Berbatov, who despite scoring a shitload of goals for them, is seen as a failure. Well, lucky he's got Rooney and Chicharito there to take up the slack.
Derek Thomas
70 Posted 26/02/2012 at 07:29:20
70 Posted 26/02/2012 at 07:29:20
Guy Hastings 135 ? absolutely spot on Re Best. There was never one before or after to rival him and, as Richard mentions, he never did too good on Merseyside.
Strikers (athletes especially middle distance 800 meters and up) peak physically at 25. The trick is to have gained enough experience and the nouse to compensate for the slight drop in physical performance, the lack of half a yard that gets you to the ball before the defender.
This is why (maybe) Owen, Fowler, and Torres crashed and burnt so much. And, to give Rooney and SAF the credit where it is due, he is allowed to save his legs for the performance of his core duties.
Dave 081 ? I've called you Herr clever wordmiester before and here you go again... I said, just coz Moyes and everyone does it doesn't make it right, hence the 2 wrongs etc... So which camp ARE you in? Having one striker running the channels to the apparent detriment of his core duty, eg, scoring. Are you for it or agin it???
Strikers (athletes especially middle distance 800 meters and up) peak physically at 25. The trick is to have gained enough experience and the nouse to compensate for the slight drop in physical performance, the lack of half a yard that gets you to the ball before the defender.
This is why (maybe) Owen, Fowler, and Torres crashed and burnt so much. And, to give Rooney and SAF the credit where it is due, he is allowed to save his legs for the performance of his core duties.
Dave 081 ? I've called you Herr clever wordmiester before and here you go again... I said, just coz Moyes and everyone does it doesn't make it right, hence the 2 wrongs etc... So which camp ARE you in? Having one striker running the channels to the apparent detriment of his core duty, eg, scoring. Are you for it or agin it???
Phil Walling
71 Posted 26/02/2012 at 10:41:54
71 Posted 26/02/2012 at 10:41:54
Getting back to the question posed, I suspect that even Moyes would admit his primary objective in setting out his team is not to concede rather than providing a structure in which ANY player could have the opportunity to `fill his boots`.
The average goals scored per season in the manager`s time here is a paltry 50 or 1.3 per game ? hardly sufficient to provide anything approaching glory. This means, of course, that a huge number of wins will have been accomplished on the back of a single goal. The fact that Moyes's win record is in the order of 40% demonstrates to me that his tactics have paid off to the degree that he has kept us safe. Boring the arse off everybody is another issue!
However, any striker doing his homework whilst considering a move here could hardly see Everton as providing a climate in which he could possibly thrive. So a decision to join us might well consign him to that graveyard the post refers to.
Case proven.
The average goals scored per season in the manager`s time here is a paltry 50 or 1.3 per game ? hardly sufficient to provide anything approaching glory. This means, of course, that a huge number of wins will have been accomplished on the back of a single goal. The fact that Moyes's win record is in the order of 40% demonstrates to me that his tactics have paid off to the degree that he has kept us safe. Boring the arse off everybody is another issue!
However, any striker doing his homework whilst considering a move here could hardly see Everton as providing a climate in which he could possibly thrive. So a decision to join us might well consign him to that graveyard the post refers to.
Case proven.
Dave Wilson
74 Posted 26/02/2012 at 13:22:01
74 Posted 26/02/2012 at 13:22:01
I`m not in either camp Derek, I want both.
"Running the chanels" has become somewhat of a cliche" used more often than not by people who have know idea what it really means.
To the football playing community asking a striker to "work the chanels" means you are asking him to exploit the area between the center backs and the full backs , its a very narrow area, but to listen to some on here, you`d think it asking them to cover the width of the Panama canal.
EVERY striker worth his salt should exploit this area. why on earth do people think they are "instructed" or even need to be "instructed" to do this ?
I think the people who claim "Moyes ruins strikers" kinda shoot themselves in the foot, on one hand they moan he is inflexible and never changes his tactics, yet when strikers who have thrived under these tactics suddenly dry up . . its the tactics that are to blame . . cant/wont have it.
I cant have this claim that Moyes works his strikers to death either, its utter utter bollocks, You can count on one hand the number of times, Saha, Yakubu and Beckford have broken sweat in the past few seasons. The people who claim they were overworked have been watching watching very games to me. They`ve got away with fucken murder.
Stephen.
You are comparing clubs (several managers) to A manager. I accept the point you are making, but haven't these clubs had 5-6 times more strikers than we have ? I think if you shop at the top end of the market and buy enough strikers you will eventually find one to score you 20 goals, but does that really disguise all the failures ? I dont think so.
Roman
I`m with you, I dont care about other clubs or managers either, but how do you go about listing the shortcomings of an individual without comparing him to his peers ?
"Running the chanels" has become somewhat of a cliche" used more often than not by people who have know idea what it really means.
To the football playing community asking a striker to "work the chanels" means you are asking him to exploit the area between the center backs and the full backs , its a very narrow area, but to listen to some on here, you`d think it asking them to cover the width of the Panama canal.
EVERY striker worth his salt should exploit this area. why on earth do people think they are "instructed" or even need to be "instructed" to do this ?
I think the people who claim "Moyes ruins strikers" kinda shoot themselves in the foot, on one hand they moan he is inflexible and never changes his tactics, yet when strikers who have thrived under these tactics suddenly dry up . . its the tactics that are to blame . . cant/wont have it.
I cant have this claim that Moyes works his strikers to death either, its utter utter bollocks, You can count on one hand the number of times, Saha, Yakubu and Beckford have broken sweat in the past few seasons. The people who claim they were overworked have been watching watching very games to me. They`ve got away with fucken murder.
Stephen.
You are comparing clubs (several managers) to A manager. I accept the point you are making, but haven't these clubs had 5-6 times more strikers than we have ? I think if you shop at the top end of the market and buy enough strikers you will eventually find one to score you 20 goals, but does that really disguise all the failures ? I dont think so.
Roman
I`m with you, I dont care about other clubs or managers either, but how do you go about listing the shortcomings of an individual without comparing him to his peers ?
Anthony Jones
75 Posted 26/02/2012 at 14:12:07
75 Posted 26/02/2012 at 14:12:07
Louis Saha has just scored again. Yakubu is one of the top scorers in the league. Beckford has propelled Leicester to the FA Cup Quarterfinal.
Damn right it's a striker's graveyard, and possibly an attacking midfielder's graveyard too.
Damn right it's a striker's graveyard, and possibly an attacking midfielder's graveyard too.
Dave Wilson
76 Posted 26/02/2012 at 14:40:04
76 Posted 26/02/2012 at 14:40:04
Or
Even if the dubious goals panell let Saha keep the goal, he was still dragged off at HT, Yakubu may be relegated and having lived the dream, Beckford is back where he belongs.
Even if the dubious goals panell let Saha keep the goal, he was still dragged off at HT, Yakubu may be relegated and having lived the dream, Beckford is back where he belongs.
Mike Allison
77 Posted 26/02/2012 at 15:35:12
77 Posted 26/02/2012 at 15:35:12
Dave, I don't know if it was your intention but your original post was a Moyes hater's wet dream!
Asking strikers to do a bit of work is not what ruins them, as Dave says, all strikers are expected to work and some do so unbelievably. Tevez is one of the hardest working footballers I've ever seen, more so than most 'hard working' midfielders. He still seems to score plenty of goals.
I also find it surprising that some people use Rooney as an example of someone who benefits from not being made to work. He works his arse off and tracks back much of the time, especially in big games or when his team is winning, and has even been played out wide by Ferguson let alone asked to run the channels.
The worst thing for strikers is not having the right kind of midfielders to create chances. This is why Arsenal, Man United, Tottenham and others regularly have 20-goal-a-season strikers. This is where Moyes can be legitimately criticised. For about three games recently we had Donovan, Pienaar and Drenthe in the same squad. This should be what we base our team on. With all three, or even two of those three, on the pitch together we will create chances and strikers will prosper. If next season we don't sign or continue to bench Drenthe, our most creative asset, and instead look to Coleman and Osman for the wide positions, any striker, whether its Torres, Van Persie, Pele, Best or Dixie Dean, won't thrive here.
Asking strikers to do a bit of work is not what ruins them, as Dave says, all strikers are expected to work and some do so unbelievably. Tevez is one of the hardest working footballers I've ever seen, more so than most 'hard working' midfielders. He still seems to score plenty of goals.
I also find it surprising that some people use Rooney as an example of someone who benefits from not being made to work. He works his arse off and tracks back much of the time, especially in big games or when his team is winning, and has even been played out wide by Ferguson let alone asked to run the channels.
The worst thing for strikers is not having the right kind of midfielders to create chances. This is why Arsenal, Man United, Tottenham and others regularly have 20-goal-a-season strikers. This is where Moyes can be legitimately criticised. For about three games recently we had Donovan, Pienaar and Drenthe in the same squad. This should be what we base our team on. With all three, or even two of those three, on the pitch together we will create chances and strikers will prosper. If next season we don't sign or continue to bench Drenthe, our most creative asset, and instead look to Coleman and Osman for the wide positions, any striker, whether its Torres, Van Persie, Pele, Best or Dixie Dean, won't thrive here.
Peter Barry
78 Posted 26/02/2012 at 16:13:30
78 Posted 26/02/2012 at 16:13:30
We struggle to score more than two goals in any game and have only done so in three games this season. We also went two whole games without even having a shot on target. Why? ? because Davey boy always sends his team out to defend its all he knows and all his coaching staff are cut from the same cloth.
No matter how many 'flair' players you have, if everyone is 'tracking back' and being told the opposition are 'giants' ? what do you expect? I mean just before we played Spurs,Davey boy was telling everyone he would "pay to watch them" himself. How I wish he could because that would mean this negative force would no longer be at Goodison.
I am sure Davey's point of view is that at the start of the season we already have 38 points and he makes sure we DEFEND them at any cost and any others we pick up are the luck of the breakaway.
No matter how many 'flair' players you have, if everyone is 'tracking back' and being told the opposition are 'giants' ? what do you expect? I mean just before we played Spurs,Davey boy was telling everyone he would "pay to watch them" himself. How I wish he could because that would mean this negative force would no longer be at Goodison.
I am sure Davey's point of view is that at the start of the season we already have 38 points and he makes sure we DEFEND them at any cost and any others we pick up are the luck of the breakaway.
Sam Hoare
79 Posted 26/02/2012 at 16:27:31
79 Posted 26/02/2012 at 16:27:31
And how has that philosophy worked out in the premier league Peter? With league finishes consistently higher than our wage bill...
Phil Walling
80 Posted 26/02/2012 at 16:36:21
80 Posted 26/02/2012 at 16:36:21
Sam, up until the latest set of financial league tables, Everton`s turnover and wage bill was consistently shown as the 8th largest in the Prem. Our average finishing position during Moyes's tenure is 8.3. So, I accept that the man has delivered value for money... although not much more.
But this thread is all about strikers and graveyards. In my view, the last 10 years has seen a paucity of the former and too many occasions when watching our team has resembled a visit to the latter!
But this thread is all about strikers and graveyards. In my view, the last 10 years has seen a paucity of the former and too many occasions when watching our team has resembled a visit to the latter!
Sam Hoare
81 Posted 26/02/2012 at 17:09:25
81 Posted 26/02/2012 at 17:09:25
Phil, I would be interested to see those tables as, from what I've seen, our wages in the last few years have seen us outside the top 10, whereas our finishes, as you point out, have been inside the top 10.
Denis Richardson
82 Posted 26/02/2012 at 19:01:09
82 Posted 26/02/2012 at 19:01:09
Sam, a bit out of curiosity I hand a scan on the web but could only find info for 2009 and 2010. We were 10th and 8th respectively. Really surprising for me was West Ham and Man City changes in those two years. West Ham I can understand as their icelandic owners went bust, but City?? Sorry if the formatting is crap.
2010
Chelsea 1 174,111,000
Man City 2 133,306,000
Man Utd 3 131,689,000
Liverpool 4 121,085,000
Arsenal 5 110,733,000
Aston Villa 6 79,974,000
Totenham 7 67,203,000
Everton 8 54,311,000
Sunderland 9 53,687,000
West Ham 10 53,647,000
Fulham 11 49,285,000
Blackburn 12 47,382,000
Bolton 13 46,437,000
Stoke 14 44,805,000
Wigan 15 39,421,000
Hull 38,252,000
Birmingham 36,739,000
Wolves 29,801,000
Burnley 22,372,000
2009
Chelsea 1 167,179,000
Man City 5 82,633,000
Man Utd 2 123,120,000
Liverpool 3 107,200,000
Arsenal 4 103,978,000
Aston Villa 6 70,577,000
Totenham 8 62,567,000
Everton 10 49,069,000
Sunderland 9 49,530,000
West Ham 7 66,749,000
Fulham 11 46,232,000
Blackburn 12 46,143,000
Bolton 14 40,892,000
Stoke 16 29,749,000
Wigan 13 42,198,000
Hull 33,598,000
Birmingham 27,390,000
Wolves 16,747,000
Burnley 13,427,000
Phil McKeown
83 Posted 26/02/2012 at 23:00:31
83 Posted 26/02/2012 at 23:00:31
1 up front with players that aren't suited... there lies the issue.
Ryan Holroyd
84 Posted 26/02/2012 at 23:44:33
84 Posted 26/02/2012 at 23:44:33
Of course Moyes wants his front line to be the first line of defence.
Isn't that what Ian Rush did for years and score over 300 odd goals?
Messi works his arse off and gets 40 odd a season.
Isn't that what Ian Rush did for years and score over 300 odd goals?
Messi works his arse off and gets 40 odd a season.
Derek Thomas
85 Posted 27/02/2012 at 02:32:21
85 Posted 27/02/2012 at 02:32:21
Defending from the front means just that. Doing your share of the defensive duties, if you are a forward it should mean covering, watching, pressuring in your own area of the field, which is the final third or quarter.
It does not mean dropping back so deep that you are 10 - 15yds off the last man. I mean no one is going to give even the slowest defender a 10 -15 yd start in a 40 yd sprint.
It doesn't mean running up and down like a blue arsed fly getting back to your own box then back up field.
It doesn't mean coming into the box for corners and freekicks thus leaving their back line with no one to mark and thus putting it straight back down our throats.
The strikers defending from the front is at best a side to side motion moving across the line to discourage the easy pass out to a defender and also not being 'easy' to mark, leave the defenders in doubt as to just who has actually 'got' you.
It does not mean dropping back so deep that you are 10 - 15yds off the last man. I mean no one is going to give even the slowest defender a 10 -15 yd start in a 40 yd sprint.
It doesn't mean running up and down like a blue arsed fly getting back to your own box then back up field.
It doesn't mean coming into the box for corners and freekicks thus leaving their back line with no one to mark and thus putting it straight back down our throats.
The strikers defending from the front is at best a side to side motion moving across the line to discourage the easy pass out to a defender and also not being 'easy' to mark, leave the defenders in doubt as to just who has actually 'got' you.
Christine Foster
86 Posted 27/02/2012 at 10:06:54
86 Posted 27/02/2012 at 10:06:54
Dave Wilson, Can't agree at all with your comments, but then I only hold an FA coaching badge.. and as a female I can't hope to match your greater understanding of the complexities of football.
There is a massive difference between running the channels and working the channels. Coaches are oft heard to "hit the channels" with the long ball to clear their area, better than a hit and hope because when your defending you lob the ball over the full back and hope a striker can run it down. Thats what Moyes does ( I know because two years ago I was sitting some 20 feet away and could here the same instruction from the man himself on no less than 8 occasions in the game)
IF the striker was lucky enough to hold the ball up around the corner flag there was usually no one to give it to!!
Your point about "working the channels" is about stretching the centre backs, usually with two strikers playing, stretching the back line to cause holes.. nothing wrong with that.
Moyes wants an outlet when playing a single striker, so hitting the channels is the best option, which he used to death.. btw, Yakubu was the best "holder " of a ball for the 8 secs it took for midfield to get close to him..
There is a massive difference between running the channels and working the channels. Coaches are oft heard to "hit the channels" with the long ball to clear their area, better than a hit and hope because when your defending you lob the ball over the full back and hope a striker can run it down. Thats what Moyes does ( I know because two years ago I was sitting some 20 feet away and could here the same instruction from the man himself on no less than 8 occasions in the game)
IF the striker was lucky enough to hold the ball up around the corner flag there was usually no one to give it to!!
Your point about "working the channels" is about stretching the centre backs, usually with two strikers playing, stretching the back line to cause holes.. nothing wrong with that.
Moyes wants an outlet when playing a single striker, so hitting the channels is the best option, which he used to death.. btw, Yakubu was the best "holder " of a ball for the 8 secs it took for midfield to get close to him..
Kenn Crawford
87 Posted 27/02/2012 at 10:43:54
87 Posted 27/02/2012 at 10:43:54
Strikers graveyard? ? One game stands alone to prove this point: away at Arsenal, he takes off our only striker and puts on Distin, a defender... then his after-match comment was that for most of the game we looked like the only team that would score, FFS!!!!
Stephen Kenny
88 Posted 27/02/2012 at 10:53:07
88 Posted 27/02/2012 at 10:53:07
Dave,
Why do you keep relating the striker's new club? If Blackburn get relegated and Yakubu scores fifty, he's still scored fifty.
You asked whether our style of play and manager's management are detrimental to a striker's performance, not are we the best performing side they will play for.
BTW, having scored a reasonable amount considering his starts and having one of the best goals-per-minute ratios last season, I doubt 1st Division football is where Beckford belongs.
Why do you keep relating the striker's new club? If Blackburn get relegated and Yakubu scores fifty, he's still scored fifty.
You asked whether our style of play and manager's management are detrimental to a striker's performance, not are we the best performing side they will play for.
BTW, having scored a reasonable amount considering his starts and having one of the best goals-per-minute ratios last season, I doubt 1st Division football is where Beckford belongs.
Dave Wilson
89 Posted 27/02/2012 at 10:50:43
89 Posted 27/02/2012 at 10:50:43
Christine.
Congratulations on gaining your coaching badge, but like the rest of us, you`ll have realised your opinion is STILL only your opinion.
A couple things I dont get about your points:
Why do you think a ball down the chanel has to be "lobbed"?
Why do you feel it takes two strikers can work/run the chanels and do you not think any instructions you may have heard were given to the defenders rather than the attackers?
My post wasn't directed at you personally, but if you can remember seeing Yakubu, Saha and Beckford "CONSISTENTLY" crossing balls from the corner flag you were watching different games to me. Saha and Yakubu had enough trouble motivating themselves to get into the box.
I`d be interested to know how you square the incredibly contrasting seasons Yakubu and Saha had with us with the notion that the manager is a predictable one-trick pony who doesn't change his tactics.
BTW Christine ; You have repeatedly demonstrated an ability to hold your own with just about anybody on these pages. I KNOW you know your stuff, so please, opinions only.
Congratulations on gaining your coaching badge, but like the rest of us, you`ll have realised your opinion is STILL only your opinion.
A couple things I dont get about your points:
Why do you think a ball down the chanel has to be "lobbed"?
Why do you feel it takes two strikers can work/run the chanels and do you not think any instructions you may have heard were given to the defenders rather than the attackers?
My post wasn't directed at you personally, but if you can remember seeing Yakubu, Saha and Beckford "CONSISTENTLY" crossing balls from the corner flag you were watching different games to me. Saha and Yakubu had enough trouble motivating themselves to get into the box.
I`d be interested to know how you square the incredibly contrasting seasons Yakubu and Saha had with us with the notion that the manager is a predictable one-trick pony who doesn't change his tactics.
BTW Christine ; You have repeatedly demonstrated an ability to hold your own with just about anybody on these pages. I KNOW you know your stuff, so please, opinions only.
Andrew Ellams
90 Posted 27/02/2012 at 11:53:05
90 Posted 27/02/2012 at 11:53:05
Well if it's been a strikers graveyard up to now, it's great to see a hitherto unknown player like the Stracq starting to actually make a name for himself. After watching the big guy up front for Cardiff yesterday batter their centre halves until he couldn't run anymore, I can't wait to see Denis in the derby.
Dave Wilson
91 Posted 27/02/2012 at 11:38:06
91 Posted 27/02/2012 at 11:38:06
Stephen RE ; Yakubu.
Keen has given him a free hand, he has excused him of all other responsibilies.
Now if Yakubu`s keep Blackburn up, Keen can claim he was right to do so.
The trouble with excusing a goalscorer of all other duties is that when he doesnt score, you effectively play with 10 men.
Regardless of how many the Yak scores, you can be very certain that the number of games he scores in, will be greatly outnumbered by the number of games he doesn't.
Given the side they have. Blackburn should never be where they are and if they are relegated their fans can be justified in pointing to the games where they played with just 10 men.
If Blackburn go down, Yakubu and the way he was employed will have proven to be a luxury they could not afford. The Yak will be every bit as culpable as the guy who worked his arse of every week without scoring a goal.
If Blackburn stay up, you will probably argue that Keen`s decision was a brave one and had paid off. I will still argue it was a tad naive and that they should never have been in the position in the first place.
If you are going to excuse any striker of his "team duties" you need to be very certain he will deliver more often than not ? Gerd Muller.
Keen has given him a free hand, he has excused him of all other responsibilies.
Now if Yakubu`s keep Blackburn up, Keen can claim he was right to do so.
The trouble with excusing a goalscorer of all other duties is that when he doesnt score, you effectively play with 10 men.
Regardless of how many the Yak scores, you can be very certain that the number of games he scores in, will be greatly outnumbered by the number of games he doesn't.
Given the side they have. Blackburn should never be where they are and if they are relegated their fans can be justified in pointing to the games where they played with just 10 men.
If Blackburn go down, Yakubu and the way he was employed will have proven to be a luxury they could not afford. The Yak will be every bit as culpable as the guy who worked his arse of every week without scoring a goal.
If Blackburn stay up, you will probably argue that Keen`s decision was a brave one and had paid off. I will still argue it was a tad naive and that they should never have been in the position in the first place.
If you are going to excuse any striker of his "team duties" you need to be very certain he will deliver more often than not ? Gerd Muller.
Andrew Ellams
92 Posted 27/02/2012 at 12:10:18
92 Posted 27/02/2012 at 12:10:18
Dave, not that big a gamble surely. If you get relegated and your striker scores circa 20 goals then you should really be looking elsewhere reasons why and not at somebody who has done more that what was asked of him to help keep the side up.
Roman Sidey
93 Posted 27/02/2012 at 12:12:46
93 Posted 27/02/2012 at 12:12:46
Dave, fair chat about having to compare a manager with his peers to assess him, but it goes a lot further on here with some people to the point that they see this as an exoneration.
Mike Allison, to be fair, Tevez is a workhorse who was still in his early 20s when he became the wonderful player that he is now, and still on in his mid 20s when he hit the heights for City. Rooney has been a hard worker, and is still only 26.
Our two biggest examples are Saha and Yakubu. Saha was 30 when he joined Everton, and had spent about half of the previous four years injured. Yakubu did his achilles, put a shit load of weight on because he couldn't walk for the best part of eight months, then was given about three games to make Moyes mind up when he returned.
Neither of them are ideal situations for a striker who plays for a manager who's highest priority is work rate over talent.
Mike Allison, to be fair, Tevez is a workhorse who was still in his early 20s when he became the wonderful player that he is now, and still on in his mid 20s when he hit the heights for City. Rooney has been a hard worker, and is still only 26.
Our two biggest examples are Saha and Yakubu. Saha was 30 when he joined Everton, and had spent about half of the previous four years injured. Yakubu did his achilles, put a shit load of weight on because he couldn't walk for the best part of eight months, then was given about three games to make Moyes mind up when he returned.
Neither of them are ideal situations for a striker who plays for a manager who's highest priority is work rate over talent.
Roman Sidey
94 Posted 27/02/2012 at 12:27:35
94 Posted 27/02/2012 at 12:27:35
Cannot agree with the assessment of Blackburn though, Dave. Including the Yak, they have about two very good footballers in their squad, two good players, and a lot of below average players.
Anthony Jones
95 Posted 27/02/2012 at 12:17:39
95 Posted 27/02/2012 at 12:17:39
Dave, you make some valid points, but this argument that all players should "work hard" is missing a key point. Working hard is not necessarily covering the most ground.
As much as I respect Stracq, I think it is no coincidence that many of his shots are powderpuff. Yakubu is built for explosive bursts of pace, and he can hit rockets because he conserves energy by not tracking back as much as some of his contemporaries.
Yes, there are special players in the most gruelling and lucrative league in the world (shock horror) who are able to do everything that is asked of them to a very high standard, but in terms of world football they are a minority. I know they train and are paid ludicrous sums of money, but I think some fans mistook superman for a reality tv show. Give me Yak over Stracq any day of the week.
As much as I respect Stracq, I think it is no coincidence that many of his shots are powderpuff. Yakubu is built for explosive bursts of pace, and he can hit rockets because he conserves energy by not tracking back as much as some of his contemporaries.
Yes, there are special players in the most gruelling and lucrative league in the world (shock horror) who are able to do everything that is asked of them to a very high standard, but in terms of world football they are a minority. I know they train and are paid ludicrous sums of money, but I think some fans mistook superman for a reality tv show. Give me Yak over Stracq any day of the week.
Stephen Kenny
96 Posted 27/02/2012 at 12:24:41
96 Posted 27/02/2012 at 12:24:41
Dave,
I agree with you in as much that if Blackburn had a striker capable of scoring 20 and who worked liked a trojan then they would be more likely to stay up.
The problem is those Drogba/Rooney style players cost absolute fortunes and are like rocking horse dung.
If Yakubu sacrificed himself for the team and done more work he'd be less likely to score, as Kean alluded to.
You feel that if he did this they would be more defensively solid and may have a better chance of staying up?
I can't agree with that to be honest. Most teams that are relegated go down for one of two reasons, occassionally both. The first is an inability to defend. The second is an inability to score.
Blackburn cannot stop conceding goals. The Yak closing down a full back or denying an opposing CB time on the ball may help but at a cost of say 10 goals??? a season. How many would that save?
Even the top scorers in this league will not score in more games than they don't with maybe 1 or 2 exceptions, one who cost £38m.
I'm not trying to excuse the Yak of anything. A manager set's his side out according to what he thinks is the best way to get points. Moyes set us up well for 6 years and changed the set up for the yak when he signed. That set-up worked too.
When the Yak got injured we changed back and it hasn't really suited us.
The strikers will not be the players to get the glory with the way were set up. It will be defensive style players.
Big Denis is now the perfect player for us up top. His workrate and hold up play may earn him the appreciation of Evertonians, but he won't be a player who is looked at any differently than a Kevin Davies.
If this turns out to be for the best of the whole side I won't argue. I did argue when we tried this with an unfit Yak or a finished Saha.
I agree with you in as much that if Blackburn had a striker capable of scoring 20 and who worked liked a trojan then they would be more likely to stay up.
The problem is those Drogba/Rooney style players cost absolute fortunes and are like rocking horse dung.
If Yakubu sacrificed himself for the team and done more work he'd be less likely to score, as Kean alluded to.
You feel that if he did this they would be more defensively solid and may have a better chance of staying up?
I can't agree with that to be honest. Most teams that are relegated go down for one of two reasons, occassionally both. The first is an inability to defend. The second is an inability to score.
Blackburn cannot stop conceding goals. The Yak closing down a full back or denying an opposing CB time on the ball may help but at a cost of say 10 goals??? a season. How many would that save?
Even the top scorers in this league will not score in more games than they don't with maybe 1 or 2 exceptions, one who cost £38m.
I'm not trying to excuse the Yak of anything. A manager set's his side out according to what he thinks is the best way to get points. Moyes set us up well for 6 years and changed the set up for the yak when he signed. That set-up worked too.
When the Yak got injured we changed back and it hasn't really suited us.
The strikers will not be the players to get the glory with the way were set up. It will be defensive style players.
Big Denis is now the perfect player for us up top. His workrate and hold up play may earn him the appreciation of Evertonians, but he won't be a player who is looked at any differently than a Kevin Davies.
If this turns out to be for the best of the whole side I won't argue. I did argue when we tried this with an unfit Yak or a finished Saha.
Peter Warren
97 Posted 27/02/2012 at 13:02:42
97 Posted 27/02/2012 at 13:02:42
A 20-goal-a-season striker is a luxury most managers would like. Moyes doesn't seem to want this, unless he's a workhorse too. I would prefer a lazy git who scores 20 goals.
Dave Wilson
98 Posted 27/02/2012 at 14:10:00
98 Posted 27/02/2012 at 14:10:00
Andrew/Peter
First of all the Yak has not scored 20 goals and he is no stranger to barren spells, he has had them every where he has played so there`s no guarentee he will get that many. I stand to be corrected, but I believe he has scored all his goals in seven games. That, for me, is where the gamble lies. It leaves Blackburn playing with effectively 10 men for an awful lot of games. That has to be exhausting ? and demoralising ? for the rest of the team. Surely that is detrimental to results?
The Yak's talent is unquestioned, but ask yourself why none of the top clubs ever came calling for such a gifted player? I tell you in one word ? Desire!
Oh Peter, who was the last manager this guy scored 20 goals for? That would suggest Moyes would play him... as long as he is scoring.
First of all the Yak has not scored 20 goals and he is no stranger to barren spells, he has had them every where he has played so there`s no guarentee he will get that many. I stand to be corrected, but I believe he has scored all his goals in seven games. That, for me, is where the gamble lies. It leaves Blackburn playing with effectively 10 men for an awful lot of games. That has to be exhausting ? and demoralising ? for the rest of the team. Surely that is detrimental to results?
The Yak's talent is unquestioned, but ask yourself why none of the top clubs ever came calling for such a gifted player? I tell you in one word ? Desire!
Oh Peter, who was the last manager this guy scored 20 goals for? That would suggest Moyes would play him... as long as he is scoring.
Dave Wilson
99 Posted 27/02/2012 at 14:26:40
99 Posted 27/02/2012 at 14:26:40
Stephen.
Your suggestion that Moyes changed to suit Yakubu was an interesting one. I`m not saying you are wrong, but it's contrary to all those claims we see every day about him being a one-trick pony who can't/won't change.
Now either you are right, in which case, How would you explain Saha`s purple patches between injuries? OR ... all those people who say he has no plan B and doesn't know how to change, are right.
If the people who claim Moyes can't change are right, is it not fair to assume it was the player (or his attitude) which changed? How else can we explain going from 21 goals to zilch?
Your suggestion that Moyes changed to suit Yakubu was an interesting one. I`m not saying you are wrong, but it's contrary to all those claims we see every day about him being a one-trick pony who can't/won't change.
Now either you are right, in which case, How would you explain Saha`s purple patches between injuries? OR ... all those people who say he has no plan B and doesn't know how to change, are right.
If the people who claim Moyes can't change are right, is it not fair to assume it was the player (or his attitude) which changed? How else can we explain going from 21 goals to zilch?
Andrew Ellams
100 Posted 27/02/2012 at 14:45:07
100 Posted 27/02/2012 at 14:45:07
There seems to be a perception here that the alternative to a Moyes type workhorse striker is a lazy git. This does not have the be way at all. I hate to use the example of that horrible peace of work from across the park but if you watch Suarez, he may not cover every inch of the field but he moves constantly within his own area of the pitch therefore creating options for his advancing team mates as well as vice versa. That is what you need in a lone striker as well as attacking midfielders that join him in box when they don't have the ball during an attack.
Stephen Kenny
101 Posted 27/02/2012 at 14:39:48
101 Posted 27/02/2012 at 14:39:48
Dave,
I've got my own criticisms of Moyes. I'm also happy to stick up for him when some of the more mindless ones are trotted out.
One of mine is his handling of Yakubu after his injury.
I think we debated that at the time he left. My point was that I didn't think he was given a sufficient run of starts to get his match fitness and sharpness back.
I'm happy to admit the Yak's own lack of effort may have had a part to play in that. Whether EFC can afford to allow whats essentially an asset to depreciate for two years is another debate for a different day.
When Yakubu took over from Johnson as our main striker our game changed for the better. From long high balls for Johnson to challenge for or run onto we went to balls into Yaks feet and got runners going past the ball and behind defenders. We also started to play further up the pitch and keep possession more than we had ever done before. This meant we looked for the cross to Cahill's head less and less, which actually made it easier for him as teams didn't know what was coming as they do when were reliant on him to get on the end of crosses, as we have seen for the first half of this season.
What has never changed is Moyes' expectation for all players to work their bollocks off. It's an admirable, yet slightly naive standpoint IMO. Each player is different and has a different game. Likewise some influence a game in a different way, I personally don't look for forwards to have a positive influence on the defensive side of the game in a -4-5-1, other than to position themselves appropriately.
Asking Yakubu to do the same work as Johnson on the defensive side was foolish IMO. A quick shufty at the two players will tell you that.
He was a regular starter in his 21 goal season. Following that injury he was never given a run in the side. He was also inexplicably dropped after finding form. We can debate the why's and why not's but neither of us can know for sure?
Saha has, in the last two seasons, had long droughts and purple patches playing with pretty much the same players. I wouldn't say Moyes was to blame for Saha's form as he has all round ability and should be scoring all types of goals.
Saha was a player who could make his own chances, had a good shot from outside the box and could score from corners and free-kicks which the Yak didn't have.
He's also more mobile and was more suited to the lone role, though not the ideal. His game is a lot less one dimensional and less reliant on good service.
I blame Louis Saha for his own problems as he was that 'not arsed' in the end he didn't even bother to appeal for penalties when he was getting bundled over in the box two yards out.
I've got my own criticisms of Moyes. I'm also happy to stick up for him when some of the more mindless ones are trotted out.
One of mine is his handling of Yakubu after his injury.
I think we debated that at the time he left. My point was that I didn't think he was given a sufficient run of starts to get his match fitness and sharpness back.
I'm happy to admit the Yak's own lack of effort may have had a part to play in that. Whether EFC can afford to allow whats essentially an asset to depreciate for two years is another debate for a different day.
When Yakubu took over from Johnson as our main striker our game changed for the better. From long high balls for Johnson to challenge for or run onto we went to balls into Yaks feet and got runners going past the ball and behind defenders. We also started to play further up the pitch and keep possession more than we had ever done before. This meant we looked for the cross to Cahill's head less and less, which actually made it easier for him as teams didn't know what was coming as they do when were reliant on him to get on the end of crosses, as we have seen for the first half of this season.
What has never changed is Moyes' expectation for all players to work their bollocks off. It's an admirable, yet slightly naive standpoint IMO. Each player is different and has a different game. Likewise some influence a game in a different way, I personally don't look for forwards to have a positive influence on the defensive side of the game in a -4-5-1, other than to position themselves appropriately.
Asking Yakubu to do the same work as Johnson on the defensive side was foolish IMO. A quick shufty at the two players will tell you that.
He was a regular starter in his 21 goal season. Following that injury he was never given a run in the side. He was also inexplicably dropped after finding form. We can debate the why's and why not's but neither of us can know for sure?
Saha has, in the last two seasons, had long droughts and purple patches playing with pretty much the same players. I wouldn't say Moyes was to blame for Saha's form as he has all round ability and should be scoring all types of goals.
Saha was a player who could make his own chances, had a good shot from outside the box and could score from corners and free-kicks which the Yak didn't have.
He's also more mobile and was more suited to the lone role, though not the ideal. His game is a lot less one dimensional and less reliant on good service.
I blame Louis Saha for his own problems as he was that 'not arsed' in the end he didn't even bother to appeal for penalties when he was getting bundled over in the box two yards out.
Stephen Kenny
102 Posted 27/02/2012 at 15:17:03
102 Posted 27/02/2012 at 15:17:03
BTW,
I wonder if Yakubu's demoralised by Salgado's lack of goals?
I wonder if Yakubu's demoralised by Salgado's lack of goals?
Jimmy Kelly
103 Posted 27/02/2012 at 19:01:49
103 Posted 27/02/2012 at 19:01:49
Blackburn's position is a vital point in the Yakubu discussion. Would you rather we had a striker who scored 30 goals but a team that got relegated? I know I wouldn't.
The key is whether, in asking a player to concentrate on the width of the box and playing to his strengths alone, you are weakening the team overall. Personally I would say you are. As pointed out elsewhere, it's one of the reasons why people like Yakubu rarely play for the top teams.
I actually wanted Yakubu to stay, and if I had to pick a striker to have on the pitch when 1-0 down with 5 minutes to go, he'd be right at the top of the list - but if we were 1-0 up and trying to hold on he'd be near the bottom. That's the quandary.
Also, it's well publicised that Moyes decided he'd had enough of Yak after an admittedly woeful performance against West Brom. That was our 17th game in all competitions and he had started 8 and come on in 4 with a return of 1 goal. I think therefore that this talk of never being given a run is slightly wide of the mark.
The key is whether, in asking a player to concentrate on the width of the box and playing to his strengths alone, you are weakening the team overall. Personally I would say you are. As pointed out elsewhere, it's one of the reasons why people like Yakubu rarely play for the top teams.
I actually wanted Yakubu to stay, and if I had to pick a striker to have on the pitch when 1-0 down with 5 minutes to go, he'd be right at the top of the list - but if we were 1-0 up and trying to hold on he'd be near the bottom. That's the quandary.
Also, it's well publicised that Moyes decided he'd had enough of Yak after an admittedly woeful performance against West Brom. That was our 17th game in all competitions and he had started 8 and come on in 4 with a return of 1 goal. I think therefore that this talk of never being given a run is slightly wide of the mark.
Andy Crooks
104 Posted 27/02/2012 at 19:16:26
104 Posted 27/02/2012 at 19:16:26
Dave, you seem to imply that when the Yak is not scoring he is sitting in the stands or having a beer and a pie. Blackburn simply do not have only ten men when he is not scoring. Even if he is having a nap on the half-way line somebody will have to be there to check on him in case he wakes up.
Richard Dodd
105 Posted 27/02/2012 at 19:38:59
105 Posted 27/02/2012 at 19:38:59
It`s probably sacriledge to say it on here but I`ve always thought that had the way been found to keep Rooney, he would by now have been well on the way to Dixie Dean status. He works his arse off and scores goals so fits Davey`s profile to a tee. Although that won't stop somebody saying Moyes would have ruined him!
Andy Crooks
106 Posted 27/02/2012 at 19:51:58
106 Posted 27/02/2012 at 19:51:58
Interesting point, Richard. Everton with Rooney? A whole new debate. Would Rooney have been more useful than the money? Incidentally, I think that Moyes wouldn't have ruined Rooney other than by his and Kenwright's inability to provide adequate support for him.
Simon Harris
107 Posted 27/02/2012 at 19:43:22
107 Posted 27/02/2012 at 19:43:22
On paper the Yak has all the attributes to be a top notch striker - big, strong and can hold the ball up, two good feet and knows where the goal is.
But, like his birth certificate - it's questionable, which Yak will show up on match day. The lazy, can't be arsed journeyman or the hungry bulldozing match winner.
I wish him well, and hope he builds upon his first half of the season form.
But, like his birth certificate - it's questionable, which Yak will show up on match day. The lazy, can't be arsed journeyman or the hungry bulldozing match winner.
I wish him well, and hope he builds upon his first half of the season form.
David Chait
108 Posted 27/02/2012 at 19:50:44
108 Posted 27/02/2012 at 19:50:44
So many good observations.. and I found myself agreeing with differing views... so many sides to the story....
I feel the best performances by our strikers is when they had support of good creative wingers, e.g. Yak and Pienaar were excellent together.
But so often we see Osman or even Rodwell on the wing.. even Coleman isn't striker friendly in my opinion. what chance did they have.
For the record I think Moyes was a prize idiot for not managing the Yak better, for not playing him more and for selling him. I loved the way he fought against the corner flag chase. I have more time for talent that for pure work horse. If the Straq is our future I'm already depressed.
Kenny (890) - excellent post... although I don't agree about Saha....
I feel the best performances by our strikers is when they had support of good creative wingers, e.g. Yak and Pienaar were excellent together.
But so often we see Osman or even Rodwell on the wing.. even Coleman isn't striker friendly in my opinion. what chance did they have.
For the record I think Moyes was a prize idiot for not managing the Yak better, for not playing him more and for selling him. I loved the way he fought against the corner flag chase. I have more time for talent that for pure work horse. If the Straq is our future I'm already depressed.
Kenny (890) - excellent post... although I don't agree about Saha....
Phil Walling
109 Posted 27/02/2012 at 20:32:38
109 Posted 27/02/2012 at 20:32:38
My old man describes Stracq as `Bernie Wright on roller skates.`
I know Wright was a legend of sorts but was he so limited?
I know Wright was a legend of sorts but was he so limited?
Derek Thomas
110 Posted 27/02/2012 at 20:58:39
110 Posted 27/02/2012 at 20:58:39
Jimmy Kelly 341: you've caught keepittight-itis and you don't even know it. 1-0 up and trying to hold on! wtf You don't 'hold on' at 1-0, YOU SCORE MORE
Peter Mills
111 Posted 27/02/2012 at 20:52:05
111 Posted 27/02/2012 at 20:52:05
Phil, not long after we had sold Alan Ball, Bernie Wright came on as a sub when we had just gone 4-0 down at Anfield. And he made things worse! Yes, he was VERY limited.
Derek Thomas
112 Posted 27/02/2012 at 21:18:44
112 Posted 27/02/2012 at 21:18:44
On the field I would say he's better than Big Vic, make of that what you will. But his off the field attitude aka on the piss. He knows himself he blew it.He coulda been a contender, not sure what for though.
Stephen Kenny
113 Posted 27/02/2012 at 21:08:48
113 Posted 27/02/2012 at 21:08:48
The top clubs never went for the Yak because at his peak he would have needed to dislodge Henry or RVP, Rooney or RVN, Drogba or Keane or Berbatov.
Only Keane is worse and that's highly subjective.
The one thing forgotten is that he did score for us because he was as close as Everton will ever be able to afford to suitability for the lone striker role.
Moyes inflexibility may be down to us rarely ever having two centre mids good enough and mobile enough to play a 4-4-2 or some other system. Having watched Arteta amble round the pitch in Milan exactly the way he did for us in his final season it'd be hard to disagree.
You can't afford to be overran in midfield in the PL. Strikers with partners will always score more but teams whose midfield get dominated lose more. For a large part of his reign I could see the sense as we were so defensively solid we didn't need to score more than 1 to win. I wouldn't say that was the case now though.
The balance of talent in our squad is IMO now our midfield and we have the players to play a 4-4-2 or any other system that uses wingers. Few sides in this league have genuine success without using wingers. IMO we have brilliant ones on our books. We also have Denis who can perform a Cahill style role more effectively.
If these players aren't utilised and Jelavic doesn't get a sniff due to lack of chances then I'd be looking at Moyes, but not so much for whats gone before.
Only Keane is worse and that's highly subjective.
The one thing forgotten is that he did score for us because he was as close as Everton will ever be able to afford to suitability for the lone striker role.
Moyes inflexibility may be down to us rarely ever having two centre mids good enough and mobile enough to play a 4-4-2 or some other system. Having watched Arteta amble round the pitch in Milan exactly the way he did for us in his final season it'd be hard to disagree.
You can't afford to be overran in midfield in the PL. Strikers with partners will always score more but teams whose midfield get dominated lose more. For a large part of his reign I could see the sense as we were so defensively solid we didn't need to score more than 1 to win. I wouldn't say that was the case now though.
The balance of talent in our squad is IMO now our midfield and we have the players to play a 4-4-2 or any other system that uses wingers. Few sides in this league have genuine success without using wingers. IMO we have brilliant ones on our books. We also have Denis who can perform a Cahill style role more effectively.
If these players aren't utilised and Jelavic doesn't get a sniff due to lack of chances then I'd be looking at Moyes, but not so much for whats gone before.
Jimmy Kelly
114 Posted 27/02/2012 at 22:22:52
114 Posted 27/02/2012 at 22:22:52
Derek, believe me I would love to be hunting for a second and third in those situations but it just doesn't work like that all the time, you've got to know when to stick and when to twist.
I remember being absolutely fuming last year because having worked extremely hard to go 2-1 up at home to West Ham we committed a load of players forward and conceded again on the break. If we got to the cup final in may and did the same i'm pretty sure we'd all be saying how tactically naive Moyes was.
I was talking to some Spurs fans today who were saying they should have just shut up shop at 2-0 yesterday but they kept going forward and paid the price.
We'd all like to win every game 5-0 but it just doesn't happen.
I remember being absolutely fuming last year because having worked extremely hard to go 2-1 up at home to West Ham we committed a load of players forward and conceded again on the break. If we got to the cup final in may and did the same i'm pretty sure we'd all be saying how tactically naive Moyes was.
I was talking to some Spurs fans today who were saying they should have just shut up shop at 2-0 yesterday but they kept going forward and paid the price.
We'd all like to win every game 5-0 but it just doesn't happen.
Roman Sidey
115 Posted 28/02/2012 at 06:31:23
115 Posted 28/02/2012 at 06:31:23
Damn right it doesn't happen, Jimmy. I doubt if Moyes will ever see Everton score 5 in a game again. The recent games against Tamworth and Blackpool show that.
Derek Thomas
116 Posted 28/02/2012 at 07:39:44
116 Posted 28/02/2012 at 07:39:44
Sorry Jim but you don't, I was going to say, if you have a say in the matter, but even if you go 1-0 up against the run of play and they are pushing, then you push back harder.
What you don't do is fall back into your shell conceeding mental and physical initiative.
Even at 2-0 you are vunerable if you ease off. They get one and it's squeaky bum time as they are up and you can't get up to your previous pre 2-0 speed.
' Defending ' 1-0 is an invitation to conceed it only takes a fluke and it's shit street here we come.
How many times have the Blues snatched victory from the jaws of defeat.
Start from the 3-2 Ian storey moore cup game, on to the semi Vs City playing for the draw with 15mins to go. add another 43yrs.
Defending 1-0 ? *crosses arms* NO DEAL
What you don't do is fall back into your shell conceeding mental and physical initiative.
Even at 2-0 you are vunerable if you ease off. They get one and it's squeaky bum time as they are up and you can't get up to your previous pre 2-0 speed.
' Defending ' 1-0 is an invitation to conceed it only takes a fluke and it's shit street here we come.
How many times have the Blues snatched victory from the jaws of defeat.
Start from the 3-2 Ian storey moore cup game, on to the semi Vs City playing for the draw with 15mins to go. add another 43yrs.
Defending 1-0 ? *crosses arms* NO DEAL
Derek Thomas
117 Posted 28/02/2012 at 08:03:57
117 Posted 28/02/2012 at 08:03:57
Actually meant defeat from the jaws of victory...but you all knew that...didn't you?
Roman Sidey
118 Posted 28/02/2012 at 09:16:45
118 Posted 28/02/2012 at 09:16:45
I think the Bolton game last month was a good example of what you're talking about there, Derek.
Jimmy Kelly
119 Posted 28/02/2012 at 10:55:09
119 Posted 28/02/2012 at 10:55:09
Sorry Derek but I really do think that's a real Roy of the Rovers way of looking at football.
When I said about being 1-0 up and trying to hold on I was talking about specific scenarios, not every time we go 1-0 up!
Sometimes you quite simply can't keep hold of the ball and you don't have the energy to be bombing forward, sometimes the opposition is considerably better than you and 1-0 would be a fantastic result.
Roman is quite right to use Bolton as a good example of trying to sit on a lead when it wasn't necessary, I would say City was a good example of when it was.
If you could just go out and attack teams every game and always win then football would be easy. Holloway conceded that point after the cup game the other week.
When I said about being 1-0 up and trying to hold on I was talking about specific scenarios, not every time we go 1-0 up!
Sometimes you quite simply can't keep hold of the ball and you don't have the energy to be bombing forward, sometimes the opposition is considerably better than you and 1-0 would be a fantastic result.
Roman is quite right to use Bolton as a good example of trying to sit on a lead when it wasn't necessary, I would say City was a good example of when it was.
If you could just go out and attack teams every game and always win then football would be easy. Holloway conceded that point after the cup game the other week.
Dave Wilson
120 Posted 29/02/2012 at 09:17:33
120 Posted 29/02/2012 at 09:17:33
Derek
I don't believe for one minute you packed your bags and headed off down under.
Come on, admit it, You shaved your head and moved 50 miles up the coast to manage the seasiders, didn't you?
I don't believe for one minute you packed your bags and headed off down under.
Come on, admit it, You shaved your head and moved 50 miles up the coast to manage the seasiders, didn't you?
Derek Thomas
121 Posted 29/02/2012 at 09:35:22
121 Posted 29/02/2012 at 09:35:22
Dave you sussed me out, thing is I haven't had to shave my head for agood few years now.
Over the last few years this person and that person have been touted for Davy's job on the strength of their 'attacking' team play. Only for all the usual suspects to say, with some justification, that Davy actually finished above Mr Flavour of the season come May.
I have said somewhat half tongue in cheek that Keep it tight and pinch one is not a viable season long plan for the Prem. The back side of that is...If done to the Nth degree ala Moyes it is!... and ( with a few notable exceptions ) look at the shite we have had to watch as a result.
We now look at Mr flavour of the season for say, the last 4 or 5 season.
They all failed to finish higher than Davey some even got relegated.
The reason is that They are not as good at their version of Football as Davey is at His.
If these guys were in the ring they would be 'Boxers' as opposed to Davey being a 'fighter'.
True greats ( of boxing ) can fight and box and know when to do each.
Which, reverting to football, is why Davey has struggled to win at the old sky 4 for how many games and years now. They know ( knew in Arsenal and Chelsea's case ) how to box and fight
We have seen Davey go in his shell for most of the season, not all his fault as we know, but he made a poor situation worse.
With the Fulham Chelsea and City games we saw a little 'boxing' come into the mix with the fighting, Lo and behold results arrived at in a manner the faithful could relate to and some goals, who'd a thunk it.
It isn't ' Roy of the Rovers' to go on all out attack...it's Dumb and Dumber, if you don't back it up with 'some' for want of a better phrase, Moyes Head-ology.
So to finish; You still don't 'defend' a 1-0 you just do what you were doing before you scored, only more,...*shakes fist* It's nil fuckin nil, these are shite, gerrinta them, gerranother.
Calms down, and yes Dave, I am enjoying my stay by the seaside. and it's hard work to get these slightly limited Donkeys to attack and defend
Over the last few years this person and that person have been touted for Davy's job on the strength of their 'attacking' team play. Only for all the usual suspects to say, with some justification, that Davy actually finished above Mr Flavour of the season come May.
I have said somewhat half tongue in cheek that Keep it tight and pinch one is not a viable season long plan for the Prem. The back side of that is...If done to the Nth degree ala Moyes it is!... and ( with a few notable exceptions ) look at the shite we have had to watch as a result.
We now look at Mr flavour of the season for say, the last 4 or 5 season.
They all failed to finish higher than Davey some even got relegated.
The reason is that They are not as good at their version of Football as Davey is at His.
If these guys were in the ring they would be 'Boxers' as opposed to Davey being a 'fighter'.
True greats ( of boxing ) can fight and box and know when to do each.
Which, reverting to football, is why Davey has struggled to win at the old sky 4 for how many games and years now. They know ( knew in Arsenal and Chelsea's case ) how to box and fight
We have seen Davey go in his shell for most of the season, not all his fault as we know, but he made a poor situation worse.
With the Fulham Chelsea and City games we saw a little 'boxing' come into the mix with the fighting, Lo and behold results arrived at in a manner the faithful could relate to and some goals, who'd a thunk it.
It isn't ' Roy of the Rovers' to go on all out attack...it's Dumb and Dumber, if you don't back it up with 'some' for want of a better phrase, Moyes Head-ology.
So to finish; You still don't 'defend' a 1-0 you just do what you were doing before you scored, only more,...*shakes fist* It's nil fuckin nil, these are shite, gerrinta them, gerranother.
Calms down, and yes Dave, I am enjoying my stay by the seaside. and it's hard work to get these slightly limited Donkeys to attack and defend
Anto Byrne
122 Posted 01/03/2012 at 08:21:19
122 Posted 01/03/2012 at 08:21:19
What do you need strikers for? Overpaid, Overrated and Overweight. We want a bloke who will run himself to a standstill, chase the flags at the corner, make a diving goalline clearance, sprint 80 yards at full pelt to contest a pin-point hoof from the meandering centreback, hold the ball up for 20 minutes while his teammates plod sideways to support his foray into the box... only to be caught offside being completely knackered from the afternoon excursions.
Fucking defensive dross that has been served up for the last 10 years... Unless we win the FA Cup and get in Europe, it's time to wave Dave bye-bye!
Fucking defensive dross that has been served up for the last 10 years... Unless we win the FA Cup and get in Europe, it's time to wave Dave bye-bye!
Trevor Lynes
123 Posted 04/03/2012 at 09:36:57
123 Posted 04/03/2012 at 09:36:57
Drogba is the best 'defensive' striker in the league and he would completely suit DM's tactics... he can hold the ball up and he is as strong as a bull... he is nearing the age when DM will be getting interested ? ie, past it!!
Our manager swore to reduce the age of our squad so he brings back McFadden, signs Hahnemann and now has Weir playing centre back in the reserves. He signs strikers when they are really past their best (Louis Saha and the Yak); now he has two very inexperienced strikers in Stracqula and Vellios who to me have no real ability.
Stracqula (the Count) looks like yet another Vaughan and Vellios is obviously not fancied.
Now we sign Jelavic who is a natural striker when at Rangers and he definitely has ability, I just hope and pray that DM does not ruin him by not using his strengths and expecting him to be another workhorse. I watched him scoring goals from free kicks, both feet and headers... he could be worth the money spent on him if we get the best out of him. He is ideally built for playing up front but he is more of a Darren Bent than a Yak.
I just hope that Barkley develops into a provider because the kid definitely has dribbling ability and the fans love to see players who can beat men and excite. I'm afraid the we still lack creativity and even Arteta plays it safe and creates nothing nowadays at Arsenal.
I yearn for a Modric or Silva to be developed at Goodison and perhaps we have one in Barkley but I don't expect him to be given much chance with our boss's work ethic. I hope that Jelavic does well and I further hope that now we are relatively safe DM plays a much more attack-minded team at home.
Our manager swore to reduce the age of our squad so he brings back McFadden, signs Hahnemann and now has Weir playing centre back in the reserves. He signs strikers when they are really past their best (Louis Saha and the Yak); now he has two very inexperienced strikers in Stracqula and Vellios who to me have no real ability.
Stracqula (the Count) looks like yet another Vaughan and Vellios is obviously not fancied.
Now we sign Jelavic who is a natural striker when at Rangers and he definitely has ability, I just hope and pray that DM does not ruin him by not using his strengths and expecting him to be another workhorse. I watched him scoring goals from free kicks, both feet and headers... he could be worth the money spent on him if we get the best out of him. He is ideally built for playing up front but he is more of a Darren Bent than a Yak.
I just hope that Barkley develops into a provider because the kid definitely has dribbling ability and the fans love to see players who can beat men and excite. I'm afraid the we still lack creativity and even Arteta plays it safe and creates nothing nowadays at Arsenal.
I yearn for a Modric or Silva to be developed at Goodison and perhaps we have one in Barkley but I don't expect him to be given much chance with our boss's work ethic. I hope that Jelavic does well and I further hope that now we are relatively safe DM plays a much more attack-minded team at home.
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1 Posted 24/02/2012 at 15:08:20
James Beattie 23 goals in 38 appearances for Southampton in the Premier League in 2002/03. 10 goals in 32 appearances in the Premier League for Everton in 2005/06.
Yakubu also scored one more goal for Portsmouth in a season than he did for Everton but with more appearances and is likely to beat it this year with Blackburn. I'm not saying goals are the be all and end all but their best seasons under Moyes?