Season 2011-12 Fan Articles
Moyes's selection: A white flag to the demands of a top club
By Chris Smith :: 15/03/2012
77 Comments (»Last)
Amidst the despondency that has hung around since the Anfield derby humiliation on Tuesday, I imagine I am supposed to feel that all will be validated if Everton beat Sunderland in Saturday?s FA Cup quarter-final.
Well no, not for me. Not good enough Dave. That?s just not acceptable.
The decision to rest key players confesses a lack of belief in the squad?s ability to consistently rise to the occasion; it is a white flag to the demands of a top club.
If the passing of the manager?s decade in charge was not sufficient motivation to go for the throat, then the inevitable "10 years and you?ve won fuck all" chants should have been. I thought Moyes would be salivating for this game: the chance to eradicate an unwanted legacy against the enemy at their place, and create the sort of momentum and spirit that defines his success at Everton, leading into a quarter-final.
I can even imagine him sat intensely brooding in a darkened room all week, watching old tapes of Liverpool?s European Cup finals on mute with nothing but a bottle of Scotch and Alex Ferguson?s ?knock Liverpool off their fucking perch? quote ringing in his ears.
More pertinently however, Liverpool had lost their last three with Everton losing just two of the last 16 in all competitions.
Mockery of the fans
But instead, Moyes decided to drop four of most influential players (plus Tim Cahill and Phil Neville) from the weekend?s uplifting home win against Tottenham, and in so doing, devalue one of world football?s most intense rivalries; he made a mockery of the fans who had paid to go and watch. It beggars belief and my fear is that it will stick long in the mind.
Everton?s success under Moyes has been characterized by gutsy, cohesive performances against the Premier League?s richer, more talented teams. The club?s failure to enter the elite is due to the infrequency of those games.
Now of course money comes into it, but when you consider that a win would have taken Everton above Liverpool, I really don?t think competing is beyond our current means, especially when you consider that we didn?t turn up for the first half of the season.
Admittedly, Everton?s fixture list for March is tough ? seven games including consecutive matches against Tottenham, Liverpool, Sunderland and Arsenal ? and of course, squad rotation is essential to modern football.
But to have pinpointed the derby, and such an important one, as a losaeble game is frankly un-Moyes-like in its gutlessness. Call me a fantasist but I don?t think aiming to win all four was out of our reach. Yes, I am incredibly biased, and still unsettled by that numbing performance, but let me give my claim some depth?
In 2009, when Everton reached the FA Cup final, we played Liverpool three times in 16 days, with games against Arsenal and Manchester United sandwiched in between. Of those five, we lost only once to a bloody Cristiano Ronaldo penalty, and if Leon Osman, Tim Cahill and Phil Neville had started the game on Tuesday ? which they well may have ? Everton would have fielded nine of the 11 players who started the majority of those games.
Surrender
Three years down the line, how can you throw in the towel without accepting you?ve gone backwards? How can you interpret surrender as anything other than admission of inferiority?
The spirit that galvanises Everton was cultivated in atmospheres like 2009 and Tuesday at Anfield. To deny fans the unique pride, dedication and passion we have come to expect, denies the very nature of Everton Football Club.
Now just to position myself definitively: I am a huge Moyes fan, and nothing will ever sway me from that. He has done too much good to ever become bad in my eyes. But after the galling shambles that was the start of the season, and now our fleeting source of optimism ? our recent form ? sacrificed for a cup tie, there is but one thing to say: we better bloody win.
Reader Comments (77)
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Dave Wilson
2 Posted 15/03/2012 at 16:20:46
2 Posted 15/03/2012 at 16:20:46
This is what I dont get ?
Coward ? surrender ?
Moyes sent his team to play with two strikers up front, he asked Rodwell to hold but in no way was anybody commisioned to protect the back four and our full backs were both pushing forward.
So where did this "surrender" take place ?
I dont know anything about the fitness of the players who were left out. Today's managers often speak about energy levels and the need to rotate when you have four very tough games in 10 days, But I still think Moyes fucked up big time by choosing this game to fuck about with our back four. . .but surrender ? How ? I really would like some one to explain that one.
Every player who played has been a regular when fit, they were all handed a great chance to stake a claim for the rest of the season.
Tuesday was embarrassing, the individual fuck ups were embarrassing, The managers fuck up with his selection was embarrassing, his after match babble was embarressing and the fucken idiots who where spouting about us only having to turn up were embarressing ? . .but cowardice ? surrender ?
The only real cowardice I have witnessed this week is that shown by Evertonians who were waving the white flag before a ball was kicked because they didnt like the team selection or those who "boasted" about turning off when we went a goal down. That to me is surrender
Just my opinion like
Coward ? surrender ?
Moyes sent his team to play with two strikers up front, he asked Rodwell to hold but in no way was anybody commisioned to protect the back four and our full backs were both pushing forward.
So where did this "surrender" take place ?
I dont know anything about the fitness of the players who were left out. Today's managers often speak about energy levels and the need to rotate when you have four very tough games in 10 days, But I still think Moyes fucked up big time by choosing this game to fuck about with our back four. . .but surrender ? How ? I really would like some one to explain that one.
Every player who played has been a regular when fit, they were all handed a great chance to stake a claim for the rest of the season.
Tuesday was embarrassing, the individual fuck ups were embarrassing, The managers fuck up with his selection was embarrassing, his after match babble was embarressing and the fucken idiots who where spouting about us only having to turn up were embarressing ? . .but cowardice ? surrender ?
The only real cowardice I have witnessed this week is that shown by Evertonians who were waving the white flag before a ball was kicked because they didnt like the team selection or those who "boasted" about turning off when we went a goal down. That to me is surrender
Just my opinion like
Jim Knightley
3 Posted 15/03/2012 at 16:59:52
3 Posted 15/03/2012 at 16:59:52
A forum thread on Toffeeweb asked a few days ago whether a win would be preferred in the Cup or Liverpool game. Many of those voting went for the cup match.
I like to think I have a grip on reality when it comes to matters Everton and football, which is why I am a strong advocate of Moyes, who in spite of sometimes questionable football, achieves what our financial means dictates he should. The result on Tuesday hurt, and the performance was annoying, but before the match I desired us to go for the cup, and nothing has changed.
Liverpool have lost one game at home in the league all season, to a team they completely played off the park. Van Persie's finishing and Liverpool's poor finishing won the day eventually. Of those games Liverpool have drawn, it has often been a consequence of poor finishing which Gerrard reactified. I do not consider, irrespective of some form, that we were ever likely to win that match. I think we could have realistically hoped for a draw, but the odds were on Liverpool prior to the game for good reason. I believe Moyes was right in resting players therefore for Sunderland, for a game which is both more important and which we were far more likely to win. Every fan on here wants a cup, and I would prefer we rested players for a bigger game on saturday, than give 90mins to those who will play saturday and risk injuries for the difficult task of winning a match at Liverpool.
Jags and Rodwell came in, and both are good senior players we should be able to call on. Resting Jelavic, who has suffered from injury of late, and after his first full premiership match, is hardly a suprising call, and Denis has been superb over recent weeks. Regarding Cahill and Neville, it has been hilarious seeing some people moan about their exclusion. Constantly they are berated, surely 'resting' these players was a positive move for most Everton fans?
I stand by Moyes on this one. No one likes to surrender to Liverpool, but a Derby match is still only 3 points. I want a cup run, because that is our only realistic way into Europe and the only way we can deliver the trophy this club deserves.
We lost 0-3, it was awful, but it we did not deserve to lose by three and we were not as bad as some people have made out on here. The changes were also not as detrimental to the team as suggest.
I will support my team on Saturday, and if any true Blue does not, they need their head checking. I understand the frustation about Tuesday and I feel it too. But I think Moyes took a chance, and if we win on saturday, it will pay off. If we lose, then retrospect will condemn Moyes, but alot of managers would have made that call on tuesday.
I like to think I have a grip on reality when it comes to matters Everton and football, which is why I am a strong advocate of Moyes, who in spite of sometimes questionable football, achieves what our financial means dictates he should. The result on Tuesday hurt, and the performance was annoying, but before the match I desired us to go for the cup, and nothing has changed.
Liverpool have lost one game at home in the league all season, to a team they completely played off the park. Van Persie's finishing and Liverpool's poor finishing won the day eventually. Of those games Liverpool have drawn, it has often been a consequence of poor finishing which Gerrard reactified. I do not consider, irrespective of some form, that we were ever likely to win that match. I think we could have realistically hoped for a draw, but the odds were on Liverpool prior to the game for good reason. I believe Moyes was right in resting players therefore for Sunderland, for a game which is both more important and which we were far more likely to win. Every fan on here wants a cup, and I would prefer we rested players for a bigger game on saturday, than give 90mins to those who will play saturday and risk injuries for the difficult task of winning a match at Liverpool.
Jags and Rodwell came in, and both are good senior players we should be able to call on. Resting Jelavic, who has suffered from injury of late, and after his first full premiership match, is hardly a suprising call, and Denis has been superb over recent weeks. Regarding Cahill and Neville, it has been hilarious seeing some people moan about their exclusion. Constantly they are berated, surely 'resting' these players was a positive move for most Everton fans?
I stand by Moyes on this one. No one likes to surrender to Liverpool, but a Derby match is still only 3 points. I want a cup run, because that is our only realistic way into Europe and the only way we can deliver the trophy this club deserves.
We lost 0-3, it was awful, but it we did not deserve to lose by three and we were not as bad as some people have made out on here. The changes were also not as detrimental to the team as suggest.
I will support my team on Saturday, and if any true Blue does not, they need their head checking. I understand the frustation about Tuesday and I feel it too. But I think Moyes took a chance, and if we win on saturday, it will pay off. If we lose, then retrospect will condemn Moyes, but alot of managers would have made that call on tuesday.
Mick Gallagher
4 Posted 15/03/2012 at 17:11:27
4 Posted 15/03/2012 at 17:11:27
The surrender and white flag is more to do with Moyes comment on the website.
He said: ?Had you said to me before the Spurs game ?you will get two draws? I would have said ?that?s okay?, as it is, I have got three points from the two games.
The same can be said after drawing with Wigan we got 4 points that will do me. Thats what pisses me off of plenty of others to much negativity. By the way whats with I and not WE
He said: ?Had you said to me before the Spurs game ?you will get two draws? I would have said ?that?s okay?, as it is, I have got three points from the two games.
The same can be said after drawing with Wigan we got 4 points that will do me. Thats what pisses me off of plenty of others to much negativity. By the way whats with I and not WE
Kevin Sparke
5 Posted 15/03/2012 at 17:08:43
5 Posted 15/03/2012 at 17:08:43
To be honest I thought it was a very courageous decision to drop six players and play an unfamiliar 4-4-2 - so courageous it was rank stupidity. (If you ever watched 'Yes Minister' you'll know what I mean by 'courageous').
Lets get one thing clear - Liverpool FC are shite in comparison to what they were. I've seen far better Everton teams get turned over at 'the theatre of delusion' than the one we had out on Tuesday. So was Moyes scared of them? I'm not so sure - I think he was trying to be too clever
I still cannot work out why Moyes played 4-4-2 when every time he does we get beat. If he'd have stuck to his default formation and tried to grind out a result, it probably would have served us better as two of their goals started with Everton attacking moves breaking down.
Also - in the Spurs match I thought Moyes got his tactics spot on by closing down Bale. Why the fuck did he more or less give Suarez the freedom of Anfield?
I've done little but think about this since Tuesday and cannot for the life of me work out Moyes's motivation for the decisions he made.
Saving players for Saturday? Against the 'mighty' Sunderland... They've lost 3 key players in two games! - if anything Sunderland will be right up for this game now as Everton will be deflated and could have the crowd on their backs.
Can't work it out - If there's on thing we think know about Moyes is he normally takes the conservative option - why go all experimental at Anfield?
I don't get it.
Lets get one thing clear - Liverpool FC are shite in comparison to what they were. I've seen far better Everton teams get turned over at 'the theatre of delusion' than the one we had out on Tuesday. So was Moyes scared of them? I'm not so sure - I think he was trying to be too clever
I still cannot work out why Moyes played 4-4-2 when every time he does we get beat. If he'd have stuck to his default formation and tried to grind out a result, it probably would have served us better as two of their goals started with Everton attacking moves breaking down.
Also - in the Spurs match I thought Moyes got his tactics spot on by closing down Bale. Why the fuck did he more or less give Suarez the freedom of Anfield?
I've done little but think about this since Tuesday and cannot for the life of me work out Moyes's motivation for the decisions he made.
Saving players for Saturday? Against the 'mighty' Sunderland... They've lost 3 key players in two games! - if anything Sunderland will be right up for this game now as Everton will be deflated and could have the crowd on their backs.
Can't work it out - If there's on thing we think know about Moyes is he normally takes the conservative option - why go all experimental at Anfield?
I don't get it.
Mike Elbey
6 Posted 15/03/2012 at 17:27:10
6 Posted 15/03/2012 at 17:27:10
Dave,
Where do you get that we played 442 on Tuesday ?
Anichebe was playing left mid with Pienaar in an advanced central role, it certainly at no stage was 442, apart from maybe 5 minutes after half time before the tripple subs came.
Where do you get that we played 442 on Tuesday ?
Anichebe was playing left mid with Pienaar in an advanced central role, it certainly at no stage was 442, apart from maybe 5 minutes after half time before the tripple subs came.
Kevin Sparke
7 Posted 15/03/2012 at 17:31:06
7 Posted 15/03/2012 at 17:31:06
Nope Mike - it was 4-4-2 until the substitutions - Anichebe was pulled out of position so often to cover it looked as if he was playing deeper - but every time we got possession he was taking up a line with Straq.
Dave Wilson
8 Posted 15/03/2012 at 17:33:41
8 Posted 15/03/2012 at 17:33:41
Sorry Mike
I saw Pienaar dovetailing with Baines every time we attacked, and Vic playing right down the middle.
The only time Vic moved left was to challenge for Jagielkas wayward hoofs.
Ineffective ? fucken right it was, but we played 4-4-2 alright
I saw Pienaar dovetailing with Baines every time we attacked, and Vic playing right down the middle.
The only time Vic moved left was to challenge for Jagielkas wayward hoofs.
Ineffective ? fucken right it was, but we played 4-4-2 alright
James Martin
9 Posted 15/03/2012 at 18:50:51
9 Posted 15/03/2012 at 18:50:51
It did not start out as 4-4-2. I'm as much of a fan of 4-5-1 as anyone and it was clear that at the start of the game Anichebe was playing wide left with Pienaar behind Strac. Only when it became glaringly obvious that Anichebe cannot play outwide and we were 2 down did we revert to 4-4-2.
Keith Glazzard
10 Posted 15/03/2012 at 19:20:21
10 Posted 15/03/2012 at 19:20:21
Beat Spurs. Six changes. Abject performance.
Sorry I haven't followed anyone's detailed breakdown of the breakdown. More to do in life, especially when you get so let down by such an important part of it.
Heitinga is possibly our best player and we have played at our best with him at the back. A team is built on its defence and we didn't have one.
We marked Bales out of the game but failed to mark either Gerrard or Suarez and gave them the park to play in. Distin was running around like a headless chicken. It doesn't mean he's a bad player, just that the set-up was wrong.
Remind me, what does Rodwell do? Not what Cahill does, for a start. Anything else?
Sure, the faithful will be behind the team on Saturday. But, and I do mean this Mr Moyes, they'd better be busting their guts to make sure they deserve the support that was so sadly let down at Anfield.
Sorry I haven't followed anyone's detailed breakdown of the breakdown. More to do in life, especially when you get so let down by such an important part of it.
Heitinga is possibly our best player and we have played at our best with him at the back. A team is built on its defence and we didn't have one.
We marked Bales out of the game but failed to mark either Gerrard or Suarez and gave them the park to play in. Distin was running around like a headless chicken. It doesn't mean he's a bad player, just that the set-up was wrong.
Remind me, what does Rodwell do? Not what Cahill does, for a start. Anything else?
Sure, the faithful will be behind the team on Saturday. But, and I do mean this Mr Moyes, they'd better be busting their guts to make sure they deserve the support that was so sadly let down at Anfield.
Tony Marsh
11 Posted 15/03/2012 at 19:37:03
11 Posted 15/03/2012 at 19:37:03
Dave Wilson you have to be either the most foolish or most devout fan we ever had. If David Moyes shot your missus dead with a sawn-off from point-blank range, you would blame the company that made the cartridges... Why is it you see no wrong in a man who consistently bottles out against the big boys away from home? Stats prove it's a fact, by the way ? not me.
What transpired on Tuesday, whatever you want to call it lack of preparation, lack of nous, lack of desire ? it was disgusting and you know it. Why don't you grow a spine and admit your wrong.
you sound so stupid defending every mistake and fuck-up Moyes makes and having a go at fans who actually care how we play and how we are percieved by others.
Moyes is a conman who revels in having no money as it gives him his excuse to fail. You just don't get what Everton should be, do you Dave? We aint' no Bolton or Blackburn so why do you want us to act as such? You're as bad as Moyes.
What transpired on Tuesday, whatever you want to call it lack of preparation, lack of nous, lack of desire ? it was disgusting and you know it. Why don't you grow a spine and admit your wrong.
you sound so stupid defending every mistake and fuck-up Moyes makes and having a go at fans who actually care how we play and how we are percieved by others.
Moyes is a conman who revels in having no money as it gives him his excuse to fail. You just don't get what Everton should be, do you Dave? We aint' no Bolton or Blackburn so why do you want us to act as such? You're as bad as Moyes.
Dave Wilson
12 Posted 15/03/2012 at 19:58:22
12 Posted 15/03/2012 at 19:58:22
Tony Marsh
Do you have trouble reading ? read my post lad I blame Moyes for the selection.
I dont adopt your derranged "Moyes is the root of all evil" shite, because it fucken half witted
You seem unable to distinguish between fact and "lets cancel Christmas" delusion.
Moyes regularly wins at WHL and Manchester, more than any other manager in fact . .or are two of the top three not the "big boys" you were refering to in your "facts"
I know what supporting Everton is all about and its not about waving the white flag like you did before the Fulham game.
You have no clue, you whine like fuck that the manager revels in having no money whilst overlooking the fact that the chairman is incapable of supplying any.
Dont tell me I dont get it, I`ve been watching from the days when our motto actually meant something, when the manager was given sufficient funds to compete. You on the other hand seem to want to blame the guy who deals with the problem rather than the one who creates it.
I really dont need telling how to support my club by the fella who, in order to justify his manic claims, told the whole world he wanted Eveton to lose.
That my old china plate was more treacherous than anything Moyes has done. and he`s only a hired hand
Do you have trouble reading ? read my post lad I blame Moyes for the selection.
I dont adopt your derranged "Moyes is the root of all evil" shite, because it fucken half witted
You seem unable to distinguish between fact and "lets cancel Christmas" delusion.
Moyes regularly wins at WHL and Manchester, more than any other manager in fact . .or are two of the top three not the "big boys" you were refering to in your "facts"
I know what supporting Everton is all about and its not about waving the white flag like you did before the Fulham game.
You have no clue, you whine like fuck that the manager revels in having no money whilst overlooking the fact that the chairman is incapable of supplying any.
Dont tell me I dont get it, I`ve been watching from the days when our motto actually meant something, when the manager was given sufficient funds to compete. You on the other hand seem to want to blame the guy who deals with the problem rather than the one who creates it.
I really dont need telling how to support my club by the fella who, in order to justify his manic claims, told the whole world he wanted Eveton to lose.
That my old china plate was more treacherous than anything Moyes has done. and he`s only a hired hand
Tommy Coleman
13 Posted 15/03/2012 at 20:43:39
13 Posted 15/03/2012 at 20:43:39
Dave Wilson ? do you really still think it's all about money?
Did you watch the Man Utd v Bilboa game?
Could you ever imagine Moyes having a go at Man Utd like that?
Could you imagine he could have the vision to promote a youth system like that and not rely and complain about the funds available to him in the transfer system?
I admit you've slated Moyes this time around regarding his team selection, again though you always seem to end any criticism with a "but".
Did you watch the Man Utd v Bilboa game?
Could you ever imagine Moyes having a go at Man Utd like that?
Could you imagine he could have the vision to promote a youth system like that and not rely and complain about the funds available to him in the transfer system?
I admit you've slated Moyes this time around regarding his team selection, again though you always seem to end any criticism with a "but".
Bobby Mallon
14 Posted 15/03/2012 at 20:48:36
14 Posted 15/03/2012 at 20:48:36
To Jim Knightley and all other fans who think it was okay for Moyes to rest players, what if he was not resting players and he plays the same team against Sunderland and we loose that one? What then? You should never rest a winning team... NEVER. Yes, if injured... but, if you're on the bench you are fit.
He made Everton fans a laughing stock in Liverpool, the twat.
He made Everton fans a laughing stock in Liverpool, the twat.
Barry Rathbone
15 Posted 15/03/2012 at 20:55:58
15 Posted 15/03/2012 at 20:55:58
Dave
Pack it in, you write this:
"But I still think Moyes fucked up big time by choosing this game to fuck about with our back four. ."
"The managers fuck up with his selection was embarrassing, his after match babble was embarressing "
Then pick around the edges in Moyes devotion questioning the labels "surrender and cowardice" - he could have rotated his squad against spurs then went for Liverpool and Sunderland but he chose not to - why?
These sideshows of yours are hopeles when the going gets tough it turns into an embarrasment with Moyes - his judgement is either flawed, as you suggest, or he bottles it when the big game comes.
Either way unless you're happy with it I've no idea how a man of your age can be so devoted to this fella - fucking weird really.
Pack it in, you write this:
"But I still think Moyes fucked up big time by choosing this game to fuck about with our back four. ."
"The managers fuck up with his selection was embarrassing, his after match babble was embarressing "
Then pick around the edges in Moyes devotion questioning the labels "surrender and cowardice" - he could have rotated his squad against spurs then went for Liverpool and Sunderland but he chose not to - why?
These sideshows of yours are hopeles when the going gets tough it turns into an embarrasment with Moyes - his judgement is either flawed, as you suggest, or he bottles it when the big game comes.
Either way unless you're happy with it I've no idea how a man of your age can be so devoted to this fella - fucking weird really.
Dave Wilson
16 Posted 15/03/2012 at 20:52:06
16 Posted 15/03/2012 at 20:52:06
Tommy, of course its about money, did you think it was coincidence that the rich teams win every league in the world ?
These these are European cup ties, the spanish have been giving the English fooball lessons for as long as I can remember, but how long do you think they would last in the prem ?
Imagine telling that bright young Bilbao coach his team have to play Spurs, The Shite , Stoke and Arsenal in 12 days . and their entire season depended upon it ? he`d laugh in your face.
compare apples with apples
As for the "But" . .well I`ll be happy to withdraw it if you or somebody else can tell me how fucking up the team selection amounts to cowardice or surrender
These these are European cup ties, the spanish have been giving the English fooball lessons for as long as I can remember, but how long do you think they would last in the prem ?
Imagine telling that bright young Bilbao coach his team have to play Spurs, The Shite , Stoke and Arsenal in 12 days . and their entire season depended upon it ? he`d laugh in your face.
compare apples with apples
As for the "But" . .well I`ll be happy to withdraw it if you or somebody else can tell me how fucking up the team selection amounts to cowardice or surrender
Dave Wilson
17 Posted 15/03/2012 at 21:14:36
17 Posted 15/03/2012 at 21:14:36
Barry.
I read the live forum when I got in the other night and I saw you telling another fan to fuck off because he didnt agree with you.
Now I know you would would like nothing better than for you and your ilk to have your inaccurate claims unchallenged, but life aint like that. Some (me) have a real problem accepting whining for the sake of it, if the criticsm is accurate, I`ll accept it, if its contrary to what I`ve just witnessed, I wont.
Shall I tell you whats really weired ? telling a guy you have never met to fuck off, because he doesnt see things the way you do . .Trevor would be proud
I read the live forum when I got in the other night and I saw you telling another fan to fuck off because he didnt agree with you.
Now I know you would would like nothing better than for you and your ilk to have your inaccurate claims unchallenged, but life aint like that. Some (me) have a real problem accepting whining for the sake of it, if the criticsm is accurate, I`ll accept it, if its contrary to what I`ve just witnessed, I wont.
Shall I tell you whats really weired ? telling a guy you have never met to fuck off, because he doesnt see things the way you do . .Trevor would be proud
Tommy Coleman
18 Posted 15/03/2012 at 21:18:17
18 Posted 15/03/2012 at 21:18:17
Dave - Money absolutely helps, its not the be all and end all as you suggest though. If you have the vision, belief and time ( something most don't get ) you can create a World class side without having to match the big spenders in transfer fees.
Barcelona are the ultimate example, they've spent no where near what other big clubs have spent. In fact, their team that won the Champs League a few years ago cost less than Everton's.
I know they spent loads on their youth system but it has much more to do with their philosophy from the grass roots up, more than money, that has developed them into the greatest team of all time.
As for "surrender" etc I think, as you said yourself, it was in regards to his logic of his post match comments. It seemed as if he didn't care about the points against LFC.
Barcelona are the ultimate example, they've spent no where near what other big clubs have spent. In fact, their team that won the Champs League a few years ago cost less than Everton's.
I know they spent loads on their youth system but it has much more to do with their philosophy from the grass roots up, more than money, that has developed them into the greatest team of all time.
As for "surrender" etc I think, as you said yourself, it was in regards to his logic of his post match comments. It seemed as if he didn't care about the points against LFC.
Stephen Kenny
19 Posted 15/03/2012 at 22:02:09
19 Posted 15/03/2012 at 22:02:09
In between starting arguments, breaking furniture and generally acting like an arsehole these past two days a thought occurred to me.
"If we win Saturday and the shite get beat, will they look at what Moyes did and say it was right?"
I don't really bother with the shite's fans, most are gobshites, but I think they will see sense in it should they see us in an FA Cup Semi/Final.
I hate them and I believe we could have played the first team and won both games BUT, if they go out and we're on our way to Wembley does that at least vindicate the team selection, if not the performance and attitude post game?
Barry Rathbone
20 Posted 15/03/2012 at 22:16:33
20 Posted 15/03/2012 at 22:16:33
The Rev Dave Wilson
Well Dave although this sideshow is again nothing to do with Moyes and his ludicrous decisions I'll indulge you this once because you've gone all high horse via claims of inaccuracy.
After witnessing Gerrard and co slice through the non existent defence in the first 5 mins I (and most everyone else actually) knew what was coming - and said as much.
A juvenile (Judging by his uninvited petulence) decided to have a go because he didn't like the truth (bit close to home?) and of course within minutes the inevitable happened and guess who's fault it was according to the foul mouthed little oik?
The hint is - it wasn't Moyes.
So you see Dave accuracy from the likes of me isn't an issue - look a bit closer to home and you will find find the root cause of the more personal disagreements - Moyes supporters don't want to hear the truth and get quite arsey when you point it out.
Which is just too bad.
Well Dave although this sideshow is again nothing to do with Moyes and his ludicrous decisions I'll indulge you this once because you've gone all high horse via claims of inaccuracy.
After witnessing Gerrard and co slice through the non existent defence in the first 5 mins I (and most everyone else actually) knew what was coming - and said as much.
A juvenile (Judging by his uninvited petulence) decided to have a go because he didn't like the truth (bit close to home?) and of course within minutes the inevitable happened and guess who's fault it was according to the foul mouthed little oik?
The hint is - it wasn't Moyes.
So you see Dave accuracy from the likes of me isn't an issue - look a bit closer to home and you will find find the root cause of the more personal disagreements - Moyes supporters don't want to hear the truth and get quite arsey when you point it out.
Which is just too bad.
Mick Gallagher
21 Posted 15/03/2012 at 22:29:22
21 Posted 15/03/2012 at 22:29:22
No Stephen, reaching a semi and the shite getting beat won't make Moyes's selection alright. Win the cup and it will go a long way to easing the the pain of the worst performance at Anfield in years.
Dave Wilson
22 Posted 15/03/2012 at 22:20:24
22 Posted 15/03/2012 at 22:20:24
"Moyes supporters dont want to hear the truth and get quite arsey when you point it out"
Fair enough Barry, here`s me thinking the lad was pissed with you because you were actually gloating when the shite scored ... nearly made the same old mistake of believing what I see with me own eyes there.
Fair enough Barry, here`s me thinking the lad was pissed with you because you were actually gloating when the shite scored ... nearly made the same old mistake of believing what I see with me own eyes there.
Barry Rathbone
23 Posted 15/03/2012 at 22:43:40
23 Posted 15/03/2012 at 22:43:40
Dave
Completely and utterly wrong.
I suspect your eyes were..... how can I put this .... confused.
In all honesty Dave I don't remember telling him to fuck off either - not really my style - but if I did, well done me!
The liitle prick deserved it.
I'd be a bit careful going down this route given your track record.
Completely and utterly wrong.
I suspect your eyes were..... how can I put this .... confused.
In all honesty Dave I don't remember telling him to fuck off either - not really my style - but if I did, well done me!
The liitle prick deserved it.
I'd be a bit careful going down this route given your track record.
Jamie Barlow
24 Posted 15/03/2012 at 22:37:26
24 Posted 15/03/2012 at 22:37:26
Tommy, i just found this.
Barcelona are the best paid team in global sport measured by average first-team wages, ahead of their great rivals Real Madrid in second place, knocking baseball?s New York Yankees from the No1 spot, according to the Global Sports Salaries Survey 2011, to be published this week by sportingintelligence.
The average first team pay at Barcelona has been calculated at £95,081 per player per week, or £4,944,211 per year in the period under review. Real Madrid?s players in No2 place earned £88,421 per week (£4.6m per year) while first-team stars at the Yankees, at No3, will earn an average of £81,206 per man per week in the 2011 season, or £4.2m per year.
They might be the Greatest team of all time but if they had no money, Messi (who takes home £180000 a week) and most probably quite a few others wouldn't even be at Barcelona.
Moyes team might be a bit different if we could have offered Rooney, Lescott, Pienaar, Arteta, or any player in world football whatever wage they wanted.
Barcelona are the best paid team in global sport measured by average first-team wages, ahead of their great rivals Real Madrid in second place, knocking baseball?s New York Yankees from the No1 spot, according to the Global Sports Salaries Survey 2011, to be published this week by sportingintelligence.
The average first team pay at Barcelona has been calculated at £95,081 per player per week, or £4,944,211 per year in the period under review. Real Madrid?s players in No2 place earned £88,421 per week (£4.6m per year) while first-team stars at the Yankees, at No3, will earn an average of £81,206 per man per week in the 2011 season, or £4.2m per year.
They might be the Greatest team of all time but if they had no money, Messi (who takes home £180000 a week) and most probably quite a few others wouldn't even be at Barcelona.
Moyes team might be a bit different if we could have offered Rooney, Lescott, Pienaar, Arteta, or any player in world football whatever wage they wanted.
Ged Dwyer
25 Posted 15/03/2012 at 22:52:58
25 Posted 15/03/2012 at 22:52:58
Lee
To have a go at Rodwell like that is a disgrace. Until Moyes messed up his season by playing him when he wasn't fit, he was in excellent form. Fellaini plays more sideways and backwards passes than anyone in midfield and gets praised. An unbelievable attack on Rodwell and, if we had a decent manager, Rodwell really would be something.
To have a go at Rodwell like that is a disgrace. Until Moyes messed up his season by playing him when he wasn't fit, he was in excellent form. Fellaini plays more sideways and backwards passes than anyone in midfield and gets praised. An unbelievable attack on Rodwell and, if we had a decent manager, Rodwell really would be something.
Nick Wall
26 Posted 15/03/2012 at 22:48:00
26 Posted 15/03/2012 at 22:48:00
Jim Knightley #248 - good post in a ridiculously overheated thread. It's just nonsense to suggest that Moyes had surrendered before the game started. Moyes was desperate for a result at Anfield and picked what he thought was a strong team capable of doing the job.
You've got 4 big games in 12 days and a full squad of players, so you do a certain amount of squad rotation. All the Champions League teams do it, and often it gets them results because it freshens up the team. It's about trusting your squad players, and god knows there've been enough times in the last year or two when people have called on Moyes to put more trust in the likes of Rodwell, Barkley, and so on.
Maybe this time Moyes made the wrong calls on a couple of players. I don't agree with all his choices. But you have to acknowledge that Moyes is in a better position to judge how much Saturday's game had taken out of certain players and how much of a risk it would be to give starts to players like Jelavic and Osman who are not long back from injury. And that after 10 years Moyes knows what the derby means to everyone connected with Everton and is certainly not the man to take it lightly.
You've got 4 big games in 12 days and a full squad of players, so you do a certain amount of squad rotation. All the Champions League teams do it, and often it gets them results because it freshens up the team. It's about trusting your squad players, and god knows there've been enough times in the last year or two when people have called on Moyes to put more trust in the likes of Rodwell, Barkley, and so on.
Maybe this time Moyes made the wrong calls on a couple of players. I don't agree with all his choices. But you have to acknowledge that Moyes is in a better position to judge how much Saturday's game had taken out of certain players and how much of a risk it would be to give starts to players like Jelavic and Osman who are not long back from injury. And that after 10 years Moyes knows what the derby means to everyone connected with Everton and is certainly not the man to take it lightly.
Lee Courtliff
27 Posted 15/03/2012 at 23:26:20
27 Posted 15/03/2012 at 23:26:20
Ged ? After everything that has been put on here in the last couple of days you start crying about me slagging Jack. On countless occasions he had the chance to play an attacking pass and didn't, either because he can't or because he bottled out.
How many times are people going keep raving about this kid before they accept that he is not creative, skilful, fast or prolific. He was never in great form, as you suggest, he had a couple of DECENT games. That's it.
I want Jack to live up to the hype just like you do.............but he just doesn't do anything. I think that's why I get so frustrated with him. Because I have to listen to people lauding him. By the way, Fellaini is far superior in every department. That's just my opinion of course.
How many times are people going keep raving about this kid before they accept that he is not creative, skilful, fast or prolific. He was never in great form, as you suggest, he had a couple of DECENT games. That's it.
I want Jack to live up to the hype just like you do.............but he just doesn't do anything. I think that's why I get so frustrated with him. Because I have to listen to people lauding him. By the way, Fellaini is far superior in every department. That's just my opinion of course.
Clive Lewis
28 Posted 15/03/2012 at 23:43:13
28 Posted 15/03/2012 at 23:43:13
Well if the team selection was not surrender then maybe we should play the same team again, how do you feel about that?
Reality is that we rested our best team that was playing well and stuck in players returning from injury and ones that are not good enough. Let's just remeber we are not Man Utd, we don't have Premier League quality in reserve; we have not played in Europe so tiredness does not come into this.
The only conclusion is basically surrender by reckless gamble! That was evident in all evertonians thoughts, doomed from the start. Confidence is now low and therefore the domino effect of this may have a bearing on Saturday and the rest of the season.
It appears by the fact that everyone knew this would fail from the start, apart from DM, it has to be judged to be surrendering; it would have been better to pull the plug on the floodlights or something. How many times have you seen Anichebe and Straq and Rodwell make the difference in a game?
It is pretty clear to me the game needed players who can hold the ball up, bring other players in... neither of these can. It was pretty clear the rest would struggle with this in mind.
Reality is that we rested our best team that was playing well and stuck in players returning from injury and ones that are not good enough. Let's just remeber we are not Man Utd, we don't have Premier League quality in reserve; we have not played in Europe so tiredness does not come into this.
The only conclusion is basically surrender by reckless gamble! That was evident in all evertonians thoughts, doomed from the start. Confidence is now low and therefore the domino effect of this may have a bearing on Saturday and the rest of the season.
It appears by the fact that everyone knew this would fail from the start, apart from DM, it has to be judged to be surrendering; it would have been better to pull the plug on the floodlights or something. How many times have you seen Anichebe and Straq and Rodwell make the difference in a game?
It is pretty clear to me the game needed players who can hold the ball up, bring other players in... neither of these can. It was pretty clear the rest would struggle with this in mind.
Keith Glazzard
29 Posted 15/03/2012 at 23:46:59
29 Posted 15/03/2012 at 23:46:59
Ged - you just made me go back to read Lee's post. His criticism of Rodwell, I'd say, is based on many hours of observation.
I think he's absolutely correct. Please tell us all what Jack actually does. And please don't start to compare his contribution to Fellaini's. We are blessed to have this player on our books. If we didn't have Jack - for all we like the guy - we would never miss him.
I think he's absolutely correct. Please tell us all what Jack actually does. And please don't start to compare his contribution to Fellaini's. We are blessed to have this player on our books. If we didn't have Jack - for all we like the guy - we would never miss him.
Keith Glazzard
30 Posted 16/03/2012 at 00:06:50
30 Posted 16/03/2012 at 00:06:50
ps - Lee - hadn't seen your latest post, but word for word I couldn't agree more.
Clive Lewis
31 Posted 16/03/2012 at 00:08:45
31 Posted 16/03/2012 at 00:08:45
Rodwell was no existence on Tuesday. Althought it hurts to say Spearing was far better and more effective. In fact I cannot remeber Rodwell doing anything since we beat Man U 3-1. Even his shooting is way off target. Now I am not sure if this has anything to do with his management under Moyes but something is clearly wrong with Rodwell and his confidence.
Lee Courtliff
32 Posted 16/03/2012 at 00:15:26
32 Posted 16/03/2012 at 00:15:26
Thanks Keith. I take no pleasure in this. I want all our lads to do well. I don't like slagging them. It's just so bloody frustrating.
Keith Glazzard
33 Posted 16/03/2012 at 00:22:31
33 Posted 16/03/2012 at 00:22:31
Trying to be fair I've just read all the posts -
Just to be picky - Bielsa is having great success at Bilbao. And he would have been daunted by our fixture list this month for sure. He would appreciate being called their 'young coach', but the former Argentine and Chile manager at the age of 57 would, I guess, have to decline that one.
Lee - again, totally agree. If only wishing made it happen, but ... Too late now, but If Jack had gone out on loan where he really had to earn his corn it might have done him the world of good. He came into a midfield where Arteta did the thinking, and we haven't replaced that yet.
We'll all be behind the lads on Saturday so lets hope this all fades very quickly. Then again I don't have to go to work anywhere near a kopite. I extend my deepest sympathy to anyone that does.
Just to be picky - Bielsa is having great success at Bilbao. And he would have been daunted by our fixture list this month for sure. He would appreciate being called their 'young coach', but the former Argentine and Chile manager at the age of 57 would, I guess, have to decline that one.
Lee - again, totally agree. If only wishing made it happen, but ... Too late now, but If Jack had gone out on loan where he really had to earn his corn it might have done him the world of good. He came into a midfield where Arteta did the thinking, and we haven't replaced that yet.
We'll all be behind the lads on Saturday so lets hope this all fades very quickly. Then again I don't have to go to work anywhere near a kopite. I extend my deepest sympathy to anyone that does.
Lee Courtliff
34 Posted 16/03/2012 at 00:56:29
34 Posted 16/03/2012 at 00:56:29
I don't work with them either but there are 5 of them waiting for me in my local on monday night. Lets just fucking murder Sunderland and then win the bloody thing!
John Keating
35 Posted 16/03/2012 at 00:54:16
35 Posted 16/03/2012 at 00:54:16
I don't understand this excuse some people are putting forward that we had to " rotate " players because of the upcoming ? in 4 days time! ? cup quarterfinal against the mighty Sunderland!! Have we always rested players before Sunderland games at home?
Then we have this shit about 4 or 5 or 6 games in the next couple of weeks? So fucking what?! For more years than I care to remember, I've heard players who are on a roll saying they can't wait for the next match etc etc etc.
Until a season or so ago, Lampard hadn't missed a single game for Chelsea, never heard him complaining. Messi plays 60-odd games a season for Barca, he seems to survive.
We have a few games in a couple of weeks and some arseholes on here reckon we have to "rotate" ... Fucking rubbish!!
Then we have this shit about 4 or 5 or 6 games in the next couple of weeks? So fucking what?! For more years than I care to remember, I've heard players who are on a roll saying they can't wait for the next match etc etc etc.
Until a season or so ago, Lampard hadn't missed a single game for Chelsea, never heard him complaining. Messi plays 60-odd games a season for Barca, he seems to survive.
We have a few games in a couple of weeks and some arseholes on here reckon we have to "rotate" ... Fucking rubbish!!
Ray Roche
36 Posted 16/03/2012 at 07:58:31
36 Posted 16/03/2012 at 07:58:31
Re the comments on Jack Rodwell. I'd be happy to see Jack put in the attacking, driving performance he did when he donned the England shirt. I don't know why he doesn't....but I expect someone will come on and tell me.
Tommy Coleman
37 Posted 16/03/2012 at 09:57:38
37 Posted 16/03/2012 at 09:57:38
Jamie Barlow - that's right but the cycle was this:
Invest in youth system over 10 years - create World class players - qualify Champs League etc - win trophies - create World wide brand - generate loads of money - pay biggest wages.
Bilboa maybe going through the 1st two stages as we speak.
What is Everton's cycle ?
Look for investment - pay big wages - spend money on transfers - Look for investment etc...
We are trying to keep up with The Jones', we cannot and will not compete if we play their game. I really believe that if we had the vision and the will, we could have the best youth system in the country and produce World class players year in year out.
If Bilboa and Barca can do it, why can't Everton ?
Invest in youth system over 10 years - create World class players - qualify Champs League etc - win trophies - create World wide brand - generate loads of money - pay biggest wages.
Bilboa maybe going through the 1st two stages as we speak.
What is Everton's cycle ?
Look for investment - pay big wages - spend money on transfers - Look for investment etc...
We are trying to keep up with The Jones', we cannot and will not compete if we play their game. I really believe that if we had the vision and the will, we could have the best youth system in the country and produce World class players year in year out.
If Bilboa and Barca can do it, why can't Everton ?
Andrew Ellams
38 Posted 16/03/2012 at 10:18:56
38 Posted 16/03/2012 at 10:18:56
Ray, in two words the reason is David Moyes.
Roman Sidey
39 Posted 16/03/2012 at 10:04:47
39 Posted 16/03/2012 at 10:04:47
Money wins the league. I'll come around on that one. The thing is, we weren't asking Moyes to win the fucking league on Tuesday. We were asking him to win one game against the club we hate the most on their turf, at a time when they probably have the worst squad they've had in a generation.
Jim Knightly, we all read the thread about having to choose between the derby and the shite. What I read from most posters was that the general consensus was "why would we only have to win one?"
I repeat, why do people think we couldn't win against Sunderland if we played our best side (because the side we put out was nowhere near our best side for a derby) on Tuesday? It's fucking bollocks.
My second biggest fear (biggest being that Moyes is probably going to sign a new contract soon) is - what sort of side is he going to put out against Arsenal.
Then, if we do make the semi, we play Sunderland the Monday before Wembley, so we can kiss those three points goodbye.
Jim Knightly, we all read the thread about having to choose between the derby and the shite. What I read from most posters was that the general consensus was "why would we only have to win one?"
I repeat, why do people think we couldn't win against Sunderland if we played our best side (because the side we put out was nowhere near our best side for a derby) on Tuesday? It's fucking bollocks.
My second biggest fear (biggest being that Moyes is probably going to sign a new contract soon) is - what sort of side is he going to put out against Arsenal.
Then, if we do make the semi, we play Sunderland the Monday before Wembley, so we can kiss those three points goodbye.
Andrew Ellams
40 Posted 16/03/2012 at 10:19:56
40 Posted 16/03/2012 at 10:19:56
I think it's about time we had a field on here were we can see the poster's age. That way will be able to judge how we react to some of the puerile crap that is posted in weeks like this against whether the poster is a kid or somebody who is old enough to know better
Chris Fisher
41 Posted 16/03/2012 at 10:26:40
41 Posted 16/03/2012 at 10:26:40
I'm very intrested to hear his press conference ahead of the quaterfinal! When you fuck up, just have the balls to say sorry! People make mistakes and that's okay if you can face up to it... he'd better not try and make some shit excuse!
Scott Hamilton
42 Posted 16/03/2012 at 10:47:44
42 Posted 16/03/2012 at 10:47:44
It's interesting that, in the Toffeeweb poll, 16% of respondents think Moyes made the right decision with his derby-day team selection.
That's a large number of people that appear to be keeping very quiet on these threads!
That's a large number of people that appear to be keeping very quiet on these threads!
Brian Waring
43 Posted 16/03/2012 at 11:28:36
43 Posted 16/03/2012 at 11:28:36
Stephen ('348) Say on Sat Sunderland are all over us, we score a jammy goal in injury time with our only shot on goal, the shite batter Stoke, but Stoke score a jammy injury time winner to knock them out, would that vindicate Moyes's team selection Tuesday?
Ged Simpson
44 Posted 16/03/2012 at 11:33:57
44 Posted 16/03/2012 at 11:33:57
Barry - you told me to get off my high horse the other day too.
Feeling a biit insecure these days ? Not able to accept debate ?
Remember - we are all Blues first and foremost. We just have different ideas on how to succeeed.
Try and bear that in mind when you come on TW
Feeling a biit insecure these days ? Not able to accept debate ?
Remember - we are all Blues first and foremost. We just have different ideas on how to succeeed.
Try and bear that in mind when you come on TW
Mark Stone
45 Posted 16/03/2012 at 11:43:45
45 Posted 16/03/2012 at 11:43:45
More so than any other outcome, Brian.
Jamie Barlow
46 Posted 16/03/2012 at 12:04:26
46 Posted 16/03/2012 at 12:04:26
It might not Brian, but i'll have a huge grin and a banging headache on Sunday.
John Crook
47 Posted 16/03/2012 at 12:16:32
47 Posted 16/03/2012 at 12:16:32
What if our game against Sunderland was on the Sunday and the Shite played Stoke on the Saturday lunch time? (It's the TV companies who validate who kicks off and when on FA Cup weekends.) Do you all still think Moyes would have played the reserve team from Tuesday nights debacle?
Maybe that extra one-and-a-half days recovery time (the Shite kick off at 4pm on Sunday) would have made all the difference in team selection and recovery time? Just a thought! I was pissed off to no end but I have had more time to reflect upon his possible reasonings.
Maybe that extra one-and-a-half days recovery time (the Shite kick off at 4pm on Sunday) would have made all the difference in team selection and recovery time? Just a thought! I was pissed off to no end but I have had more time to reflect upon his possible reasonings.
John Crawley
48 Posted 16/03/2012 at 13:19:37
48 Posted 16/03/2012 at 13:19:37
In principle I thought Moyes did the right thing on Tuesday in resting players. I may not have agreed with the players he rested, his team selection and tactics but I don't think that resting players equates to waving a white flag. What I do have a problem with are Moyes after match comments which were a disgrace and certainly did come over as waving a white flag. It's not the first time this season that he has done this. The most obvious example being his comments at the Man City away fixture.
Denis Richardson
49 Posted 16/03/2012 at 13:06:06
49 Posted 16/03/2012 at 13:06:06
Without meaning to be pedantic, can people please stop using the money arguement to 'vindicate' any crap performances and/or results we have. It really is getting boring/outdated.
We have beaten City, Chelsea and Spurs at home this season and also lost to the likes of Stoke and Bolton. Add to that a team like Dortmund (made up mostly of inexperienced players from their youth system) won the Bundesliga last year at a canter (i.e. not Bayern) and look like they will win it again this year - mostly with the same team. Money of course is important but its not the be all and end all. We also have a decent (if small) squad.
The team, formation, set-up, mind-set (whatever you want to call it), on Tuesday was totally wrong and we were played off the park by an average Liverpool side, (please dont give me any 'we had some good spells' - we could have lost by a lot more than 3 goals). If Moyes had come out after the game and said he simply got it wrong on the night and apologised, I think fans would have been more understanding. However, he is obviously either too stuborn to admit he fucked up or the 10 year anniversary media love in/hype has obvioulsy gone to his head. I still cannot believe that he was 'not too disappointed' simply because we beat Spurs the game before!
I'm actually more annoyed with his attitude to the defeat than the result or performance itself - at the end of the day we all make mistakes. However, can you imagine SAF or Wenger saying something like that if Man U/Arsenal lose to City or Spurs? I am really surprised he misjudged how much these games mean to the fans, especially as he's a Celtic man and knows what the glasgow derby means up north.
Really think he's beginning to believe the hype.
We have beaten City, Chelsea and Spurs at home this season and also lost to the likes of Stoke and Bolton. Add to that a team like Dortmund (made up mostly of inexperienced players from their youth system) won the Bundesliga last year at a canter (i.e. not Bayern) and look like they will win it again this year - mostly with the same team. Money of course is important but its not the be all and end all. We also have a decent (if small) squad.
The team, formation, set-up, mind-set (whatever you want to call it), on Tuesday was totally wrong and we were played off the park by an average Liverpool side, (please dont give me any 'we had some good spells' - we could have lost by a lot more than 3 goals). If Moyes had come out after the game and said he simply got it wrong on the night and apologised, I think fans would have been more understanding. However, he is obviously either too stuborn to admit he fucked up or the 10 year anniversary media love in/hype has obvioulsy gone to his head. I still cannot believe that he was 'not too disappointed' simply because we beat Spurs the game before!
I'm actually more annoyed with his attitude to the defeat than the result or performance itself - at the end of the day we all make mistakes. However, can you imagine SAF or Wenger saying something like that if Man U/Arsenal lose to City or Spurs? I am really surprised he misjudged how much these games mean to the fans, especially as he's a Celtic man and knows what the glasgow derby means up north.
Really think he's beginning to believe the hype.
Ged Dwyer
50 Posted 16/03/2012 at 13:32:21
50 Posted 16/03/2012 at 13:32:21
Keith, Lee
Nothing Rodwell did or didn't do on Tuesday should be used against him as he clearly wasn't match fit just like Jags.
Rodwell is a defensive midfielder, nothing else but as usual Moyes has it all wrong and thinks he's an attacking midfielder.
He has pace, can cover the defence, has a good pass, and with the right manager and players around him he would be fine.
Having said that he was playing well this season, had his only run in the side halted by an unjust sending off and then injury. He forced his way into the England team on the strength of his performances and showed his potential playing for them.
If you remember Arteta was used as the scapegoat in midfield for last season and now you've jumped on Rodwell, no doubt influenced by Tuesday night.
I too have observed Rodwell for many hours, but I don't jump on bandwagons, and if you didn't see the decent games he had early on this season, away to City when he was exceptional, Man Utd at home and others you need to shop at spec savers. He hasn't played that many games actually and wasn't involved in the Norwich, Swansea, Bolton (albeit coming on as a sub when not fit and having to go back off) and Blackburn games were our midfield completely nosedived and were totally outplayed by the opposition.
My one doubt about Rodwell is that he seems to be injury prone but as a defensive midfielder I have no problem with him.
By the way his challenge early on in The Derby to stop Liverpool from scoring was awesome and it was Fellaini who got caught in possession to set up Liverpool's first goal. I'm not having a go at Fellaini but I know what you'd be saying if that had been Rodwell !
There's nothing worse than picking on a player who hasn't been that bad when it's the inept manger we should be focusing on. It would be taking the easy way out to agree with you but I know what I've seen in Rodwell's performances this season.
Nothing Rodwell did or didn't do on Tuesday should be used against him as he clearly wasn't match fit just like Jags.
Rodwell is a defensive midfielder, nothing else but as usual Moyes has it all wrong and thinks he's an attacking midfielder.
He has pace, can cover the defence, has a good pass, and with the right manager and players around him he would be fine.
Having said that he was playing well this season, had his only run in the side halted by an unjust sending off and then injury. He forced his way into the England team on the strength of his performances and showed his potential playing for them.
If you remember Arteta was used as the scapegoat in midfield for last season and now you've jumped on Rodwell, no doubt influenced by Tuesday night.
I too have observed Rodwell for many hours, but I don't jump on bandwagons, and if you didn't see the decent games he had early on this season, away to City when he was exceptional, Man Utd at home and others you need to shop at spec savers. He hasn't played that many games actually and wasn't involved in the Norwich, Swansea, Bolton (albeit coming on as a sub when not fit and having to go back off) and Blackburn games were our midfield completely nosedived and were totally outplayed by the opposition.
My one doubt about Rodwell is that he seems to be injury prone but as a defensive midfielder I have no problem with him.
By the way his challenge early on in The Derby to stop Liverpool from scoring was awesome and it was Fellaini who got caught in possession to set up Liverpool's first goal. I'm not having a go at Fellaini but I know what you'd be saying if that had been Rodwell !
There's nothing worse than picking on a player who hasn't been that bad when it's the inept manger we should be focusing on. It would be taking the easy way out to agree with you but I know what I've seen in Rodwell's performances this season.
Lee Courtliff
53 Posted 16/03/2012 at 13:54:07
53 Posted 16/03/2012 at 13:54:07
I know what I've seen too. Nothing you will say will change my mind. Granted, he was very good away at City. The rest of the time he had been distinctly average at best. Yet some still seem hell bent on portraying him as some sort of potential world beater.
We will have to agree to disagree. By the way, if his passing is so good why does he constantly refuse to play a pass that is even SLIGHTLY difficult? Just watch the next time he plays. And the injury had nothing to do with it as he has always done this.
We will have to agree to disagree. By the way, if his passing is so good why does he constantly refuse to play a pass that is even SLIGHTLY difficult? Just watch the next time he plays. And the injury had nothing to do with it as he has always done this.
Lee Courtliff
54 Posted 16/03/2012 at 14:02:57
54 Posted 16/03/2012 at 14:02:57
Oh yeah, in fairness he did make a superb block tackle on Tuesday. A goal-saving tackle.
Dave Wilson
55 Posted 16/03/2012 at 14:02:49
55 Posted 16/03/2012 at 14:02:49
Rodwell has been brought up the "right way", he does alll the simple things well, but I can't help feeling there`s a lot more to him.
He has shown glimpses of agression against both Manchester clubs and for England, he`s got all the tools, but if he is going to fulfil his potential, he has to start driving at people.
He has shown glimpses of agression against both Manchester clubs and for England, he`s got all the tools, but if he is going to fulfil his potential, he has to start driving at people.
Ciarán McGlone
57 Posted 16/03/2012 at 14:21:43
57 Posted 16/03/2012 at 14:21:43
Lee,
Did you miss the defence-splitting pass that Rodwell made in the first half?
Did you miss the defence-splitting pass that Rodwell made in the first half?
Mark Stone
58 Posted 16/03/2012 at 14:24:06
58 Posted 16/03/2012 at 14:24:06
I thought you'd have all been over the moon to see an Everton team starting with no Neville, Cahill or Osman?
GJ Butler
59 Posted 16/03/2012 at 15:00:17
59 Posted 16/03/2012 at 15:00:17
I was Mark, but they're not the players we missed - Jelavic, Drenthe & Heitinga was more of a concern to me.
Stephen Kenny
60 Posted 16/03/2012 at 15:00:13
60 Posted 16/03/2012 at 15:00:13
To be honest Brian Yes,
That extra few percent in the tank could easily be the one that matters.
I still think we could have won both and I still think the post match comment's were a disgrace from an Everton manager but I could just about stomach them beating our reserves but we get to go on to the chance of a trophy.
I've said often enough the games all about winning trophies and that's why If we do I'd look back on that game as possibly a necessary evil.
BTW you never answered my question.
That extra few percent in the tank could easily be the one that matters.
I still think we could have won both and I still think the post match comment's were a disgrace from an Everton manager but I could just about stomach them beating our reserves but we get to go on to the chance of a trophy.
I've said often enough the games all about winning trophies and that's why If we do I'd look back on that game as possibly a necessary evil.
BTW you never answered my question.
Scott Hamilton
61 Posted 16/03/2012 at 14:56:43
61 Posted 16/03/2012 at 14:56:43
Mark - It's an interesting point that you make!
Many, many Toffeewebbers have consistently complained about Moyes' "favourites" being played week in and week out and of his fear of playing 4-4-2. Straq, Rodwell and others have also frequently been mentioned as talents that are not being given an opportunity to develop.
So Moyes plays 4-4-2 and brings fresh blood into the team... and we get battered!
I think this illustrates the point that there isn't one secret formula that will mean we win, or at least compete in, every game.
Of course it was blindingly obvious that he should have played with roughly the same team (plus Pienaar) that beat Spurs last week and to make the changes was naive/brainless (delete as applicable) in the extreme. BUT, I bet if he had played 4-5-1 with the team we all expected and we still got battered then many would be berating him for not doing what he chose to do!
Again, to repeat, in my opinion his team selection on Tuesday was fucking nuts but hopefully you see the point!
Many, many Toffeewebbers have consistently complained about Moyes' "favourites" being played week in and week out and of his fear of playing 4-4-2. Straq, Rodwell and others have also frequently been mentioned as talents that are not being given an opportunity to develop.
So Moyes plays 4-4-2 and brings fresh blood into the team... and we get battered!
I think this illustrates the point that there isn't one secret formula that will mean we win, or at least compete in, every game.
Of course it was blindingly obvious that he should have played with roughly the same team (plus Pienaar) that beat Spurs last week and to make the changes was naive/brainless (delete as applicable) in the extreme. BUT, I bet if he had played 4-5-1 with the team we all expected and we still got battered then many would be berating him for not doing what he chose to do!
Again, to repeat, in my opinion his team selection on Tuesday was fucking nuts but hopefully you see the point!
Brian Waring
62 Posted 16/03/2012 at 15:15:19
62 Posted 16/03/2012 at 15:15:19
For me Stephen, a win tomorrow and I'm over the moon, but it wouldn't vindicate Moyes for Tuesday.
Stephen Kenny
63 Posted 16/03/2012 at 15:16:53
63 Posted 16/03/2012 at 15:16:53
Scott,
Some TW'ers will say have a go at 4-4-2 to see if it work's etc.
Most TW'ers will say be a bit more adventurous at times.
Almost all TW'ers would think it's a mad idea to play an unfit spine of a side and drop your two most combative players in the heat of a derby game if you want to win it.
Some TW'ers will say have a go at 4-4-2 to see if it work's etc.
Most TW'ers will say be a bit more adventurous at times.
Almost all TW'ers would think it's a mad idea to play an unfit spine of a side and drop your two most combative players in the heat of a derby game if you want to win it.
Scott Hamilton
64 Posted 16/03/2012 at 15:25:35
64 Posted 16/03/2012 at 15:25:35
Stephen,
I agree and as I said, Moyes' team selection was utterly crazy.
BUT - there is an irony that most of us wished he'd played 4-5-1 and included Osman!
I agree and as I said, Moyes' team selection was utterly crazy.
BUT - there is an irony that most of us wished he'd played 4-5-1 and included Osman!
Ged Dwyer
65 Posted 16/03/2012 at 15:11:56
65 Posted 16/03/2012 at 15:11:56
Lee
You mustn't have seen the United game then. I certainly don't think he's exceptional though, but he has never really been given the run he needs in a defensive midfield role. But I do think in a week when the manager let the fans and players down so badly, and the players on the pitch on Tuesday night had such an unenviable task, it is very unfair to start slagging any player off. There is only one person to blame and that is Moyes. I totally understand your frustration though.
By the way, I agree with your point about Rodwell passing sideways too often, but that can improve with confidence (and movement of other players and he played in games were there was little) and unfortunately because the manager played him when he was injured, aggravating his hamstring further he has been missing during our good run of results and when players like Donovan and Pienaar came into the side. Credit to Gibson though...
Fingers crossed for tomorrow!
You mustn't have seen the United game then. I certainly don't think he's exceptional though, but he has never really been given the run he needs in a defensive midfield role. But I do think in a week when the manager let the fans and players down so badly, and the players on the pitch on Tuesday night had such an unenviable task, it is very unfair to start slagging any player off. There is only one person to blame and that is Moyes. I totally understand your frustration though.
By the way, I agree with your point about Rodwell passing sideways too often, but that can improve with confidence (and movement of other players and he played in games were there was little) and unfortunately because the manager played him when he was injured, aggravating his hamstring further he has been missing during our good run of results and when players like Donovan and Pienaar came into the side. Credit to Gibson though...
Fingers crossed for tomorrow!
Mark Stone
66 Posted 16/03/2012 at 15:07:11
66 Posted 16/03/2012 at 15:07:11
I disagree. I think we missed Cahill's tenacity and I think we missed Neville's leadership and experience. As for Jelavic, well he has only started one game and he has not been a key player during our recent good run. Denis, on the other hand, has. Not that I don't think Jelavic should have started, but I don't think not starting him was raising a white flag. Drenthe has been in and out of the team. He blows hot and cold in the extreme and when he came on for 30 mins against Liverpool he was certainly the latter. In a toss up between the two, I'd start Pienaar over him every time. That one leaves one decision, PJ in for JH. I certainly feel the frustration, but JH wouldn't have been able to play all of the games we have this fortnight, and this is the game he was rested for. It's not actually that huge a decision, as centre half is a position where we have some strength in depth, and an England international should be able to come in and do a job. I would imagine that on Sat it will be JH and SD, and I also have a feeling that one of Arsenal or Swansea will be JH and PJ with SD on the bench. You get 5 days in 14 days you've got to rotate. I would have started JH over PJ on Tues, but I understand the decision and I'm not sure that decision alone affected the performance that much.
Stephen Kenny
67 Posted 16/03/2012 at 15:25:01
67 Posted 16/03/2012 at 15:25:01
TBH Brian,
Rotating the players weren't the problem for me. Although some were clearly unfit for that type of game.
It was the attitude they carried out onto the field. They looked overawed as we always, always do at Anfield.
Last season, Moyes said we had no right to expect to win with the money they spend compared to us. Well, maybe we don't have a right to win every time but I'd expect more than the few wins in all the times we've played them with him in charge.
I'd expect anybody associated with our club to be destroyed losing a game of tiddlywinks to them cunts and he didn't seem that arsed. That's what's criminal. He doesn't act like he sees getting above them as an issue.
I've made my points about Moyes time and again on here and I don't believe he's got what we need but the scandal isn't the team selection, it's the attitude ? the same one he took to City away and the same one he takes to all other big sides' grounds.
Rotating the players weren't the problem for me. Although some were clearly unfit for that type of game.
It was the attitude they carried out onto the field. They looked overawed as we always, always do at Anfield.
Last season, Moyes said we had no right to expect to win with the money they spend compared to us. Well, maybe we don't have a right to win every time but I'd expect more than the few wins in all the times we've played them with him in charge.
I'd expect anybody associated with our club to be destroyed losing a game of tiddlywinks to them cunts and he didn't seem that arsed. That's what's criminal. He doesn't act like he sees getting above them as an issue.
I've made my points about Moyes time and again on here and I don't believe he's got what we need but the scandal isn't the team selection, it's the attitude ? the same one he took to City away and the same one he takes to all other big sides' grounds.
Colin Gee
68 Posted 16/03/2012 at 15:29:35
68 Posted 16/03/2012 at 15:29:35
Mark #471 Agree with that, I am normally pro Moyes, but he fucked up big time on Tuesday night, two things annoy me, the fact that he won't admit it and the other one, had he gone for it on Tuesday night and we were now facing Sunderland tomorrow without several key players due to suspension and injury, there would be posters on here saying why didn't Moyes rest them to stop them getting suspended or injured...
A case of damned if you do and damned if you don't.
Me personally, I would have gone for it.
A case of damned if you do and damned if you don't.
Me personally, I would have gone for it.
Jim Knightley
69 Posted 16/03/2012 at 15:15:14
69 Posted 16/03/2012 at 15:15:14
Woah, this thread goes from bad to worse...
Firstly Tommy, are you mental?!
:'Barcelona are the ultimate example, they've spent no where near what other big clubs have spent'
So so wrong. Do you know how much Fabregas cost? or Sanchez? or Villa? or Dmytro Chygrynskiy? the latter was surely one of the worse buys in football for a big club. To suggest Barca have not spent alot is just plain wrong, without even referring to the wages. Look into Spanish football properly and you will see why Real and Barca dominate. I'll give you a pointer; check out the private television deal figures.
Can I ask a few questions to people on here:
1) Given that Moyes apparently threw away 3 points, were you under the impression that we were going to beat Liverpool?
2) Do people think fresher players perform better or worse? because from the sounds of the shit coming out on here, apparently rotation is all bullocks because Lampard plays lots of games in a row...fantastic.
Re. the players rested...
Osman - has been out for an extended period with injury.
Jelavic - same argument and played his first full prem game
Neville - apart from being old...are people really upset we rested him?
Cahill - anyone going to complain about this one?
Heitinga - has been immense and cb's run around less, I think he should of played too.
Drenthe - A great player...but dodgy away in a big game, especially against attacking full backs. I would have gone with Coleman and Pienarr
Aside from those, Pienarr, has out best attacking mid, was clearly going to come back in for Osman or Drenthe.
Now seriously, how as Moyes thrown this game away? Osman and Jelavic were sensible omissions given injuries. Pienarr was always coming back in, and Neville and Cahill are hardly big losses are they?
Serious over-reaction.
Firstly Tommy, are you mental?!
:'Barcelona are the ultimate example, they've spent no where near what other big clubs have spent'
So so wrong. Do you know how much Fabregas cost? or Sanchez? or Villa? or Dmytro Chygrynskiy? the latter was surely one of the worse buys in football for a big club. To suggest Barca have not spent alot is just plain wrong, without even referring to the wages. Look into Spanish football properly and you will see why Real and Barca dominate. I'll give you a pointer; check out the private television deal figures.
Can I ask a few questions to people on here:
1) Given that Moyes apparently threw away 3 points, were you under the impression that we were going to beat Liverpool?
2) Do people think fresher players perform better or worse? because from the sounds of the shit coming out on here, apparently rotation is all bullocks because Lampard plays lots of games in a row...fantastic.
Re. the players rested...
Osman - has been out for an extended period with injury.
Jelavic - same argument and played his first full prem game
Neville - apart from being old...are people really upset we rested him?
Cahill - anyone going to complain about this one?
Heitinga - has been immense and cb's run around less, I think he should of played too.
Drenthe - A great player...but dodgy away in a big game, especially against attacking full backs. I would have gone with Coleman and Pienarr
Aside from those, Pienarr, has out best attacking mid, was clearly going to come back in for Osman or Drenthe.
Now seriously, how as Moyes thrown this game away? Osman and Jelavic were sensible omissions given injuries. Pienarr was always coming back in, and Neville and Cahill are hardly big losses are they?
Serious over-reaction.
Ciarán McGlone
70 Posted 16/03/2012 at 15:39:53
70 Posted 16/03/2012 at 15:39:53
Jim, this thread has definitely gone from bad to worse, after your assinine assessment.
Moyes picked a shit team. End of fuckin story.
Moyes picked a shit team. End of fuckin story.
Lee Courtliff
71 Posted 16/03/2012 at 15:37:14
71 Posted 16/03/2012 at 15:37:14
Ged - I wasn't at the United game so I can't comment on that. I remember just before his injury I thought he started to look a bit more like the player everyone says he can become. Then another injury.
I don't dislike Jack,he seems like a nice lad. I want him to be a success but he needs to start being braver with his decisions. Far too many sideways passes. On Tuesday I was just so fucking angry that everytime Jack played it sideways/backwards it made my blood boil. Just frustration,that's all. I have never rated him that highly to be honest. I hope he proves me wrong.
Like you said,fingers crossed for tomorrow. Just like I said I would,I'm starting to get all optimistic again. I'm going for 3-1 and Cahill to get on the scoresheet.
Surely the players must be fired up like never before after the debacle on Tuesday??
I don't dislike Jack,he seems like a nice lad. I want him to be a success but he needs to start being braver with his decisions. Far too many sideways passes. On Tuesday I was just so fucking angry that everytime Jack played it sideways/backwards it made my blood boil. Just frustration,that's all. I have never rated him that highly to be honest. I hope he proves me wrong.
Like you said,fingers crossed for tomorrow. Just like I said I would,I'm starting to get all optimistic again. I'm going for 3-1 and Cahill to get on the scoresheet.
Surely the players must be fired up like never before after the debacle on Tuesday??
Ray Roche
72 Posted 16/03/2012 at 15:42:50
72 Posted 16/03/2012 at 15:42:50
Jim @488
Although I agree with some of your points this one, "Neville - apart from being old...are people really upset we rested him?"
Well, I am, for one. That performance was crying out for a leader. I would sooner have had the best leader in the club on that pitch instead of a wholly inefectual Rodwell, who's performance will have done nothing for his confidence. Even in midfield. And while we're on the subject of confidence, to be outplayed by your biggest rivals yet again will have done nothing for the mindset of the team. What's that old adage again? Oh yes. Never change a winning team.
We should have started with our strongest side and, if they tired, then make changes. Not the other way round.
And if you care to think about it, Moyes ALWAYS considers the opposition strengths and changes our team/style of play to accomodate them, instead of letting them worry about us.
Although I agree with some of your points this one, "Neville - apart from being old...are people really upset we rested him?"
Well, I am, for one. That performance was crying out for a leader. I would sooner have had the best leader in the club on that pitch instead of a wholly inefectual Rodwell, who's performance will have done nothing for his confidence. Even in midfield. And while we're on the subject of confidence, to be outplayed by your biggest rivals yet again will have done nothing for the mindset of the team. What's that old adage again? Oh yes. Never change a winning team.
We should have started with our strongest side and, if they tired, then make changes. Not the other way round.
And if you care to think about it, Moyes ALWAYS considers the opposition strengths and changes our team/style of play to accomodate them, instead of letting them worry about us.
Mark Stone
73 Posted 16/03/2012 at 15:54:46
73 Posted 16/03/2012 at 15:54:46
Ryan so would I, but the fact remains that a huge majority of toffeeweb contributers have been calling for Neville and Cahill for dropped for ages, and now those same people are moaning that those players didn't start. Ciaron, I agree that Moyes picked the wrong team on Tues, but that 'wrong team' was only a player or two different from what the toffeeweb know it alls have been crying out for all season.
Ross Kerry
74 Posted 16/03/2012 at 16:05:40
74 Posted 16/03/2012 at 16:05:40
The white flag in question is not waved by the men sent out on the pitch, but by the general who gives the orders.
Denis Richardson
75 Posted 16/03/2012 at 16:02:09
75 Posted 16/03/2012 at 16:02:09
Mark @496,
Re Neville, I think most TWs dont want to see him in midfield. However (for me anyway), if its a choice between him or Hibbo at RB, I would choose Neville for his leadership qualities. They are both average players RBs at best.
IMO leaving JH at CB would have made a difference to the game. He's been playing really well of late and formed a good understanding with SD. Also PJ is still feeling his way back from injury and so JH would have been the better choice, especially in a derby. This our defence would have been tighter with these two in (IHO).
The Fellani / Rodwell centre mid partnership does not seem to work - nothing new. Add the fact that Rodwell is also coming back from injury, was it wise to chuck him into a derby? Either way, this pair in centre mid (for whatever reason) does not seem to click so the writing was already on the wall. Personally I would have had Osman in centre mid instead of Rodwell.
Anichebe & Straq paired (I believe for the first time?) in a derby! Talk me through that decision. If starting with 2 strikers, I would definitley have started with Jelavic - he should have had enough in the tank for an hour at least.
Either way, it was a very odd team selection. Changes one, two or maybe even 3 players would have been expected, but 6 out of the 10 outfield players?
Anyway, as I said above, Moyes attitude after the result concerns me more than the game itself.
Re Neville, I think most TWs dont want to see him in midfield. However (for me anyway), if its a choice between him or Hibbo at RB, I would choose Neville for his leadership qualities. They are both average players RBs at best.
IMO leaving JH at CB would have made a difference to the game. He's been playing really well of late and formed a good understanding with SD. Also PJ is still feeling his way back from injury and so JH would have been the better choice, especially in a derby. This our defence would have been tighter with these two in (IHO).
The Fellani / Rodwell centre mid partnership does not seem to work - nothing new. Add the fact that Rodwell is also coming back from injury, was it wise to chuck him into a derby? Either way, this pair in centre mid (for whatever reason) does not seem to click so the writing was already on the wall. Personally I would have had Osman in centre mid instead of Rodwell.
Anichebe & Straq paired (I believe for the first time?) in a derby! Talk me through that decision. If starting with 2 strikers, I would definitley have started with Jelavic - he should have had enough in the tank for an hour at least.
Either way, it was a very odd team selection. Changes one, two or maybe even 3 players would have been expected, but 6 out of the 10 outfield players?
Anyway, as I said above, Moyes attitude after the result concerns me more than the game itself.
Jim Knightley
76 Posted 16/03/2012 at 19:55:04
76 Posted 16/03/2012 at 19:55:04
Ciarán, where is your contribution to this thread? apart from to wrongly spell a word meaning foolish of course, which tbf, is quite funny. Nice work.
Ray I understand your point, and I do not share the same negative opinion of Neville generally spouted on here. However I find it amusing that Moyes is criticised for resting Cahill, Neville and Osman, by some of the very people who insult Moyes for playing them in the first place. I also think, given Neville's age, that it would be crazy to play him in 3 high tempo games in a week. I would also suggest Jelavic and Osman were not ready to play 3 games in seven days either, because of their return from injury. I've yet to see someone respond to this assertion sensibly, with most post resembling the inanity of Ciarán's. There were clearly other factors at work which posters are ignoring.
Ray I understand your point, and I do not share the same negative opinion of Neville generally spouted on here. However I find it amusing that Moyes is criticised for resting Cahill, Neville and Osman, by some of the very people who insult Moyes for playing them in the first place. I also think, given Neville's age, that it would be crazy to play him in 3 high tempo games in a week. I would also suggest Jelavic and Osman were not ready to play 3 games in seven days either, because of their return from injury. I've yet to see someone respond to this assertion sensibly, with most post resembling the inanity of Ciarán's. There were clearly other factors at work which posters are ignoring.
John Keating
77 Posted 16/03/2012 at 20:09:12
77 Posted 16/03/2012 at 20:09:12
Jim.
You are entitled to your opinion.
My opinion is that Moyes should have started with the best team he had available for this match.
I agree with Denis regarding Neville at RB, purely for his leadership qualities. He has said - again - this season that he feels as good and as fit as he's ever been.
Distin is no spring chicken and he appears ok to play 3 games in a week.
Finally I repeat what I said in another thread. If a modern day professional footballer cannot play 3 games in 7-8 days then he's in the wrong job.
Dropping Heitinga, who is probably playing his best since arriving here, for a long term injured Jagielka, plain stupid.
Of the 3 games you have mentioned the one where you would definetwly play Cahill would have been the derby.
He is the only midfielder who gets in the face of the opposition. In my opinion Gerrard would not have been as effective had Cahill been playing.
To me a straight swop between Jelavic and Strac was obvious, had he tired the ok replace Jelly at some stage but in my opinion giving Strac the nod over our 5 mill striker who has just scored the winner against Spurs was shite.
Anichebe like Osman has just returned from injury, however, Osman was rightly praised for his first half performance against Spurs not only for his support of Jelly but also his link up play between the striker and midfield. He lost his momentum when moved ouy wide in the second half. So I would have started with Osman.
Lastly, in my opinion, I would have started Drenthe as Coleman was another long term injured coming back.
Moyes himself had announced days before the match that he had a full squad to pick from.
Start with your best team and if that doesn't work change out.
What Moyes did was the opposite and more or less told us all he personally didn't rate the importance of the derby.
I would suggest that he should have looked at the players after the cup match and if he thought some were toiling changed it for the 3rd game.
His comments after the game were without doubt a disgrace and totally disrespectful tp people who have supported our club all their lives.
Only my opinion of course.
You are entitled to your opinion.
My opinion is that Moyes should have started with the best team he had available for this match.
I agree with Denis regarding Neville at RB, purely for his leadership qualities. He has said - again - this season that he feels as good and as fit as he's ever been.
Distin is no spring chicken and he appears ok to play 3 games in a week.
Finally I repeat what I said in another thread. If a modern day professional footballer cannot play 3 games in 7-8 days then he's in the wrong job.
Dropping Heitinga, who is probably playing his best since arriving here, for a long term injured Jagielka, plain stupid.
Of the 3 games you have mentioned the one where you would definetwly play Cahill would have been the derby.
He is the only midfielder who gets in the face of the opposition. In my opinion Gerrard would not have been as effective had Cahill been playing.
To me a straight swop between Jelavic and Strac was obvious, had he tired the ok replace Jelly at some stage but in my opinion giving Strac the nod over our 5 mill striker who has just scored the winner against Spurs was shite.
Anichebe like Osman has just returned from injury, however, Osman was rightly praised for his first half performance against Spurs not only for his support of Jelly but also his link up play between the striker and midfield. He lost his momentum when moved ouy wide in the second half. So I would have started with Osman.
Lastly, in my opinion, I would have started Drenthe as Coleman was another long term injured coming back.
Moyes himself had announced days before the match that he had a full squad to pick from.
Start with your best team and if that doesn't work change out.
What Moyes did was the opposite and more or less told us all he personally didn't rate the importance of the derby.
I would suggest that he should have looked at the players after the cup match and if he thought some were toiling changed it for the 3rd game.
His comments after the game were without doubt a disgrace and totally disrespectful tp people who have supported our club all their lives.
Only my opinion of course.
Jim Knightley
78 Posted 16/03/2012 at 21:12:12
78 Posted 16/03/2012 at 21:12:12
Do you think the Derby was more important then John?
Regarding players not being able to play 3 games in 7 days...I think this is a fact of football now. Every top manager rests key players at points; just look at how often Rooney and Aguero have been moved around, not to mention the rotation of other players at the top two clubs. With the tempo of the game now, I think players need to be treated carefully or else there are injuries. Just look at the disproportionate amount of injuries over the hectic Christmas period as an example. Jelavic had been out for a long time and was clearly suffering at the end of the Spurs game. I take your point regarding Coleman, and I guess for Moyes it was a decision whether to play Osman (who last played 90mins in the prem on New Year?s Day) or Coleman from the start. I personally would have opted for Coleman because I believe he gives more defensive protection. I expect Moyes will now play Osman and Drenthe tomorrow.
I do not think Moyes has done anything crazy with his selection. Osman and Jelavic have both been short of football, and most top managers would have been reluctant to start them in three matches over seven days.
Whilst I do not agree with the way we went about the game on Tuesday, I would have preferred we go for the result on Saturday before Tuesday night. I think Heitinga could have played on Tuesday, I think Cahill could have played, but I think Jelavic, Osman and Neville were rightly rested for Saturday, because IMO the cup match is more important.
Regarding players not being able to play 3 games in 7 days...I think this is a fact of football now. Every top manager rests key players at points; just look at how often Rooney and Aguero have been moved around, not to mention the rotation of other players at the top two clubs. With the tempo of the game now, I think players need to be treated carefully or else there are injuries. Just look at the disproportionate amount of injuries over the hectic Christmas period as an example. Jelavic had been out for a long time and was clearly suffering at the end of the Spurs game. I take your point regarding Coleman, and I guess for Moyes it was a decision whether to play Osman (who last played 90mins in the prem on New Year?s Day) or Coleman from the start. I personally would have opted for Coleman because I believe he gives more defensive protection. I expect Moyes will now play Osman and Drenthe tomorrow.
I do not think Moyes has done anything crazy with his selection. Osman and Jelavic have both been short of football, and most top managers would have been reluctant to start them in three matches over seven days.
Whilst I do not agree with the way we went about the game on Tuesday, I would have preferred we go for the result on Saturday before Tuesday night. I think Heitinga could have played on Tuesday, I think Cahill could have played, but I think Jelavic, Osman and Neville were rightly rested for Saturday, because IMO the cup match is more important.
Paul Andrews
80 Posted 17/03/2012 at 07:46:43
80 Posted 17/03/2012 at 07:46:43
To all the posters saying Moyes had a go by playing the 4-4-2 you have been asking for.
Play the tape of the game if you didn`t manage to spot it first time around... He didn`t play 4-4-2.
Play the tape of the game if you didn`t manage to spot it first time around... He didn`t play 4-4-2.
Andy Corrie
81 Posted 18/03/2012 at 10:09:54
81 Posted 18/03/2012 at 10:09:54
For a moment there, I actually thought that Moyes had made a difficult but perhaps shrewd decision to field a 2nd team against the Shite to give us a genuine opportunity in the FA Cup; but now I've thought about it and read everyone's notes here, it seems that it was actually just his selfish desire for the managerial badge of silverware, which has now backfired badly against a tough Sunderland side and manager.
Same shit, different season; so sad for EFC to do the exact opposite of 'Nil Satis Nisi Optimum' against our greatest Nemesis at Anfield last Tuesday. Moyes let us down badly there.
Same shit, different season; so sad for EFC to do the exact opposite of 'Nil Satis Nisi Optimum' against our greatest Nemesis at Anfield last Tuesday. Moyes let us down badly there.
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1 Posted 15/03/2012 at 16:11:15
It just doesn't make sense. Victory breeds confidence.
Players themselves have said that they only feel tired once they stop playing. Why disrupt such an impressive run??
I don't like to insult players/managers but on Tuesday I felt like telling Moyes and Rodwell to fuck off. Well and truly fuck off.
Moyes for obvious reasons and Rodwell for being equally gutless when it comes to playing a pass which isn't sideways or backwards. My best mate asked me why Rodwell gets such rave reviews and I said that I had no fucking clue.
The worst I've felt in a long time. And there was no need for it to happen. I have a horrible feeling that this will backfire on Moyes.
But like every true fan,come Saturday dinner time I will be sat there full of excitement. Having convinced myself that it will finally all come together for us and we will destroy Sunderland by 4/5 goals.
It's a vicious circle!!