Season 2011-12 Fan Articles
Momentry Lapse of Reason
By Tony Marsh :: 22/03/2012
114 Comments (»Last)
With the Sunderland replay fast approaching, I am still trying to come to terms with and understand the thinking of our beloved manager with regards to the capitulation at Anfield last week.
Surely even those with only the most basic of sports knowledge (especially football) know that to surrender the mental edge to your opponents is suicide. Once this was done against Liverpool, it made the FA Cup tie against The Mackems even harder than it already was.
Moyes put his own players under enormous pressure to win the game while taking the heat off Sunderland's team. Martin O'Niell must've wet himself laughing at the Keystone Cops antics of Moyes and Round...
Moyes showed Liverpool too much respect and Sunderland not enough and it's backfired bigtime. Take one game at a time and deal with any problems that arise. Take it on the chin but never quit on your stool. To throw our season away like this is an absolute disgrace.
It's now got to the stage at this club were only relegation will rid us of Moyes ? and even that's not guaranteed. The trouble is plenty are still happy with this shitbag outfit we have now become.
I take on board all the arguements I hear about the fantastic achievements by Moyes keeping us in the Premier League and several top 6 finishes. I agree it was nice for a while but, even when we were in the top 6, I was bored shitless by the dross we had to endure.
The problem we have got is fans are turning away in their droves because they can't stomach the crap Moyes sends his team out to play. Then, to cap it all off, other fans come out in defence of it? Where is our identity going to be after 5 more seasons of this Joker Moyes?
It's hard enough now trying to get my kids to go the game... Any more of Moyes and his anti-football, anti-win regime and we won't have anyone left who gives a fuck. It's the lack of entertainment and lack of vision that's driving fans away and not the lack of winning trophies. Winning cups would be lovely but we know it is a tough ask.
We all understand how the game of football is influenced by money, and having plenty of it gives you the advantage, but, like so many have said, there are sides in our League who don't have money to spend big but who still knock spots off us as a football outfit. These teams also go out and have a go at the Big Boys without trepidation or fear ? something that shames Moyes and this club. The choice we have as a club is simple:
Option 1: Stick with Moyes and watch the awful sickening disgusting brand of football we play and be a whipping-boy side that never improves. Watch the fanbase dwindle each year and slowly but surely watch us fade away.
Option 2: Risk all of the above and bring in a Manager with a real vision and a proper football brain. Hopefully try to play a type of football that excites and entertains a fanbase starved of anything other than kick and rush. At least try something to kick start us as what we are doing now is totally fucking ridiculous.
Clubs like Norwich and Swansea actually put Moyes's Everton to shame and that's what hurts most. Small minnow clubs putting the once mighty Everton in the shade when it comes to playing it right.
This situation of promoted clubs overtaking us on the pitch isn't down to money but down to a manager who hasn't a clue about what we are, what we want to be, or where we want to go. The events of last Tuesday prove to me that Moyes doesn't understand us or the club one bit. He's not our cup of tea either.
Moyes has us in his death grip and is chocking the life out of us. I know a lot of the players hate his methods and, like I told you before Christmas, Ross Barkley is the latest getting the Moyes treatment... Why can't the twat just leave and let us breathe again???
Look at the support going up to the North East next week... Surely we deserve better than this crap we get from Kenwright and Moyes?
See you Wednesday Boys.
Reader Comments (114)
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Paul Ferry
2 Posted 23/03/2012 at 04:00:47
2 Posted 23/03/2012 at 04:00:47
Tuesday, Tony... are you sure that you're going? Agree with everything else though.
Andrew Dempsey
3 Posted 23/03/2012 at 03:39:56
3 Posted 23/03/2012 at 03:39:56
Tony Marsh is 100% bang on with everything he says here. The worrying thing is, that this is still a minority viewpoint amongst us Blues.
Moyes screaming his head off on Wed night (in his school teachery, Tourettesy way), telling each player who they should pass the ball to next, I always hear "Jon Heitinga, Jon Heitinga!" when I'm watching on a stream.
Living in Sheffield for the last 10 years, I haven't been to many games. However, recent Internet advancements mean that any Evertonian can now suffer this anti-football with the poor souls that go every week. How can anyone support Moyes now that his failure is clear to see every week?
I was suspicious of his "1-0; protect the lead" philosophy from the first few seasons in charge. And there has been zero development!
I can see from an outside perspective why Moyes gets so many plaudits; he's like a politician, he gives the appearance of being everything you need in a football manager (Glasgow, resoluteness, tracksuits, an austere manner) but it's all just a facade and there's no progress, just conservation of power. I could go on and on all day about this mediocre prick but I'm tired.
Get Rodgers, bring Britton, Sinclair and Dyer with him, put Coleman at right-back, Rodwell and Barkley in the middle, Jelavić up front. It's not hard!!!
It's meant to be fun!!
Moyes screaming his head off on Wed night (in his school teachery, Tourettesy way), telling each player who they should pass the ball to next, I always hear "Jon Heitinga, Jon Heitinga!" when I'm watching on a stream.
Living in Sheffield for the last 10 years, I haven't been to many games. However, recent Internet advancements mean that any Evertonian can now suffer this anti-football with the poor souls that go every week. How can anyone support Moyes now that his failure is clear to see every week?
I was suspicious of his "1-0; protect the lead" philosophy from the first few seasons in charge. And there has been zero development!
I can see from an outside perspective why Moyes gets so many plaudits; he's like a politician, he gives the appearance of being everything you need in a football manager (Glasgow, resoluteness, tracksuits, an austere manner) but it's all just a facade and there's no progress, just conservation of power. I could go on and on all day about this mediocre prick but I'm tired.
Get Rodgers, bring Britton, Sinclair and Dyer with him, put Coleman at right-back, Rodwell and Barkley in the middle, Jelavić up front. It's not hard!!!
It's meant to be fun!!
Anto Byrne
4 Posted 23/03/2012 at 03:55:52
4 Posted 23/03/2012 at 03:55:52
How is it the Shite can bring in a manager like Roy Hodgson and fuck him off in a matter of weeks when the club is not performing and bring in Dalglish? Well it's probably because they have a winning ethic and won't put up with anything less.
Moyes, on the other side, is now becoming a joke with the vast majority of Evertonians and the tide is turning against this man. The FA Cup tie is make-or-break for Moyes; he has gambled the season on this one game and, as much as I hope we can get a result, it does not look likey if I'm honest.
The trip to Swansea this weekend will be interesting if anything.
Moyes, on the other side, is now becoming a joke with the vast majority of Evertonians and the tide is turning against this man. The FA Cup tie is make-or-break for Moyes; he has gambled the season on this one game and, as much as I hope we can get a result, it does not look likey if I'm honest.
The trip to Swansea this weekend will be interesting if anything.
John Barnes
5 Posted 23/03/2012 at 05:15:20
5 Posted 23/03/2012 at 05:15:20
I read once that Moyes said he would stay only as long as the fans wanted him. He may not read TW but the crowds are dwindling and you would imagine season ticket sales will be slow. I wonder how he measures the fans thoughts? and what it would take to get his head out of the sand, ( or his arse) ? I dont think the Spurs team has cost the earth, 40 yr old freebie goalie, loanee striker, etc so never mind Swansea and Norwich it can be done even higher than they are.
Martin Mason
6 Posted 23/03/2012 at 05:40:28
6 Posted 23/03/2012 at 05:40:28
Tony, I don't believe that anybody is "happy" with the situation. It's just that the vast majority of Evertonians can see that we are whare we are and that there is no point in continuously spouting the type of negative sentiment that you specialise in.
We are a poor side with no money to improve. So, what are EFC to do about it? Instead of constant moaning give us some ideas. An interim board is fantasy, the rich benefactor is fantasy, the manager who is guaranteed to make a bunch of very average players magically become Barcelona is fantasy, muppets filling hundreds of additional corporate boxes and 50k gates are fantasy.
You are bitter because you irrationally expect EFC to be successful as some kind of obligation to you or some God given right. The reality is that EFC is a poor club with a poor squad of players. Poor clubs tend not to consistently beat better clubs who are better because they are richer. Have you ever thought that it could just be that we play shit football because our players are not good enough to play better. Have you ever thought that it could just be that Moyes doesn't actually tell them to go out and play like school kids?
We are a poor side with no money to improve. So, what are EFC to do about it? Instead of constant moaning give us some ideas. An interim board is fantasy, the rich benefactor is fantasy, the manager who is guaranteed to make a bunch of very average players magically become Barcelona is fantasy, muppets filling hundreds of additional corporate boxes and 50k gates are fantasy.
You are bitter because you irrationally expect EFC to be successful as some kind of obligation to you or some God given right. The reality is that EFC is a poor club with a poor squad of players. Poor clubs tend not to consistently beat better clubs who are better because they are richer. Have you ever thought that it could just be that we play shit football because our players are not good enough to play better. Have you ever thought that it could just be that Moyes doesn't actually tell them to go out and play like school kids?
Roman Sidey
7 Posted 23/03/2012 at 05:49:03
7 Posted 23/03/2012 at 05:49:03
I would think it would take match going fans to raise placards for Moyes to realise he's not wanted. The only thing about that is, if his recent attitude continued, I could honestly see him dismissing it as "just a small minority of supporters", and carry on ruining our weekends.
What I can't understand is, cup game or no cup game, how any supporter could still want this cancerous twat involved with Everton after that derby.
What I can't understand is, cup game or no cup game, how any supporter could still want this cancerous twat involved with Everton after that derby.
Roman Sidey
8 Posted 23/03/2012 at 06:15:23
8 Posted 23/03/2012 at 06:15:23
Martin, "So, what are EFC to do about it? Instead of constant moaning give us some ideas."
Better coaching techniques would see us improve without the input of millions of pounds.
"You are bitter because you irrationally expect EFC to be successful as some kind of obligation to you or some God given right." Can't speak for Marshy, but I'm bitter because it appears that those running the club and squad are not even making the effort to be successful.
The Anfield derby sums it all up. If we'd gone into that game with a strong squad, and actually played like it meant something, and lost, fair enough. But that ginger twat didn't even try.
Better coaching techniques would see us improve without the input of millions of pounds.
"You are bitter because you irrationally expect EFC to be successful as some kind of obligation to you or some God given right." Can't speak for Marshy, but I'm bitter because it appears that those running the club and squad are not even making the effort to be successful.
The Anfield derby sums it all up. If we'd gone into that game with a strong squad, and actually played like it meant something, and lost, fair enough. But that ginger twat didn't even try.
Paul Andrews
9 Posted 23/03/2012 at 06:39:30
9 Posted 23/03/2012 at 06:39:30
Martin Mason,
The bunch of very average, poor players you mention...
Who brought them into the club?
The bunch of very average, poor players you mention...
Who brought them into the club?
Rory Slingo
10 Posted 23/03/2012 at 06:41:11
10 Posted 23/03/2012 at 06:41:11
Martin, I don't always like Moyes tactics but I think generally he has bought very well. I don't think we have a poor squad at all. I think we have a very good squad that often let themselves and us fans down by playing poorly. The question is whether this is down to them or the way they're being coached? We've seen them play joined up football in the past, sometimes playing teams off the park. So it frustrates when they can't seem to do this on a consistent basis, especially when they don't seem to get the basics right.
If we could fix our poor starts to the season, we'd be back to finishing in European places and pushing for CL again. Moyes says he doesn't know what's gone wrong and has tried everything to fix our pre-seasons. Well if he can't and 10th-11th is our new level, then he simply isn't worth his £65k a week anymore. We were finishing 5th when he got that new contract so if every PL place is worth £100k then the club will be making at least £500k-600k less than in 2008. Our TV revenue will also be affected coz a negative, dull, mid-table side will be shown less often than a plucky over-achieving side pushing the big boys for European places. Our gates have already been affected with thousands of fans voting with their feet, not content to watch the dross served up every week. So Moyes is costing the club far more than the £3.4m a year he's getting.
Surely another manager would be capable of maintaining mid-table mediocrity, if that's where we are to accept we shall end up, for less than a third of what Moyes is getting? Maybe we'll get some decent football along the way as well and put bums back in seats and eyes in front of the telly? Moyes' main value was that he got the team over-achieving in comparison to what he's spent. If that is no longer the case, then I argue he is no longer valuable to club, at least not at £65k a week!
If we could fix our poor starts to the season, we'd be back to finishing in European places and pushing for CL again. Moyes says he doesn't know what's gone wrong and has tried everything to fix our pre-seasons. Well if he can't and 10th-11th is our new level, then he simply isn't worth his £65k a week anymore. We were finishing 5th when he got that new contract so if every PL place is worth £100k then the club will be making at least £500k-600k less than in 2008. Our TV revenue will also be affected coz a negative, dull, mid-table side will be shown less often than a plucky over-achieving side pushing the big boys for European places. Our gates have already been affected with thousands of fans voting with their feet, not content to watch the dross served up every week. So Moyes is costing the club far more than the £3.4m a year he's getting.
Surely another manager would be capable of maintaining mid-table mediocrity, if that's where we are to accept we shall end up, for less than a third of what Moyes is getting? Maybe we'll get some decent football along the way as well and put bums back in seats and eyes in front of the telly? Moyes' main value was that he got the team over-achieving in comparison to what he's spent. If that is no longer the case, then I argue he is no longer valuable to club, at least not at £65k a week!
Michael Brien
11 Posted 23/03/2012 at 07:28:51
11 Posted 23/03/2012 at 07:28:51
Martin - what utter rubbish - have you not taken the trouble to look at how well Swansea are doing and see how little they have spent? Yes I agree we haven't got shed loads of money - but neither have other clubs and some of those clubs are making a better go of it than we are.
Both Swansea and Norwich have squads that are hardly crammed full of household names. Both those clubs have young, progressive thinking managers. For goodness sake Paul Lambert has as one of his main players a striker who had "done the rounds" playing in the lower divisions. When Swansea were looking for a striker in the close season the bloke they signed was from Watford I believe - Danny Graham I think it was ?
If you haven't got the money and you can't compete in the transfer market with the likes of Chelsea and Man City then you look elsewhere. Even Arsenal have found some great talent in the lower divisions.
Moyes hides behind the excuse of not having any money - hides behind it so that it can cover his limitations as a coach. His tactics have become progressively negative and that is an understatement. We have a good squad and we have some good young players but I seriously doubt if we have the best man in charge - in my opinion a progressive minded manager/coach would get more out of our players than " Dithering Davey". And Martin if you think Moyes is so wonderful then do you really think he will end up as manager of Manchester United or Spurs etc. Do you think the fans at OT of WHL will put up with such negative tactics ?
And as regards our young players and how Moyes is supposed to be so great at " bringing on young talented players" - well I think there is more chance of seeing Lord Lucan in our team than seeing the likes of Vellios and Barkley.
Both Swansea and Norwich have squads that are hardly crammed full of household names. Both those clubs have young, progressive thinking managers. For goodness sake Paul Lambert has as one of his main players a striker who had "done the rounds" playing in the lower divisions. When Swansea were looking for a striker in the close season the bloke they signed was from Watford I believe - Danny Graham I think it was ?
If you haven't got the money and you can't compete in the transfer market with the likes of Chelsea and Man City then you look elsewhere. Even Arsenal have found some great talent in the lower divisions.
Moyes hides behind the excuse of not having any money - hides behind it so that it can cover his limitations as a coach. His tactics have become progressively negative and that is an understatement. We have a good squad and we have some good young players but I seriously doubt if we have the best man in charge - in my opinion a progressive minded manager/coach would get more out of our players than " Dithering Davey". And Martin if you think Moyes is so wonderful then do you really think he will end up as manager of Manchester United or Spurs etc. Do you think the fans at OT of WHL will put up with such negative tactics ?
And as regards our young players and how Moyes is supposed to be so great at " bringing on young talented players" - well I think there is more chance of seeing Lord Lucan in our team than seeing the likes of Vellios and Barkley.
Martin Mason
12 Posted 23/03/2012 at 08:01:58
12 Posted 23/03/2012 at 08:01:58
Michael
Swansea are doing what many newly promoted sides do and excel for a short period. A lot of credit also must go to their previous managers. I'll take any bet that they go the way of all promoted clubs with limited resources. It is impossible to buck the modern trend. I'll take any bet on where Swansea and Norwich will go and please, lets see them not only ride a wave into the EPL but stay on the wave when the side needs rebuilding.
Where do you get this "Moyes is wonderful" pap? I can't stand the bloke but it is just possible that he is actually doing a good job with a very weak squad
Swansea are doing what many newly promoted sides do and excel for a short period. A lot of credit also must go to their previous managers. I'll take any bet that they go the way of all promoted clubs with limited resources. It is impossible to buck the modern trend. I'll take any bet on where Swansea and Norwich will go and please, lets see them not only ride a wave into the EPL but stay on the wave when the side needs rebuilding.
Where do you get this "Moyes is wonderful" pap? I can't stand the bloke but it is just possible that he is actually doing a good job with a very weak squad
Eugene Ruane
13 Posted 23/03/2012 at 08:03:58
13 Posted 23/03/2012 at 08:03:58
Couldn't agree more.
And personally I'be happier to finish 14th, if it meant giving it a go and a few thrills, than 8th with this clueless, dull, anti-football, percentage football shite.
Basically we play a brand of football that is nothing to do with entertainment and everything to do with an assumption that there'll be at least three teams with a worse percentage at the end of the season.
Well if you play poker and keep folding each hand you're dealt, others will lose their money before you, but you have no chance of winning and you WILL lose your money..eventually
And personally I'be happier to finish 14th, if it meant giving it a go and a few thrills, than 8th with this clueless, dull, anti-football, percentage football shite.
Basically we play a brand of football that is nothing to do with entertainment and everything to do with an assumption that there'll be at least three teams with a worse percentage at the end of the season.
Well if you play poker and keep folding each hand you're dealt, others will lose their money before you, but you have no chance of winning and you WILL lose your money..eventually
Martin Mason
14 Posted 23/03/2012 at 08:14:29
14 Posted 23/03/2012 at 08:14:29
So what it comes down to is opinion: Are we a weak squad being well managed under the circumstances... or are we a strong squad being mismanaged?
I'd say that our squad is a mixture of has beens, cast-offs, cheap deals and championship level dross. Stevie Pienaar, for example, is one of our best and he can't get a sniff at Spurs; Howard and Neville are not good enough for United's squad and yet one is our skipper and one an automatic choice every game. Anichebe, Coleman, Gueye, Stracq, Vellios are not EPL players; Hibbert and Osman are great club players but they are both journeymen set against the best; Drenthe is great in short sharp bursts but he is a fail at the top level; Fellaini is for me brilliant and Heitinga and Baines are probably the only EFC players that would get into a top 4 side and perhaps neither would get into United's team. So, how do we get amongst the top teams when in reality we are weaker than them all in virtually all positions?
I don't include Rodwell and Barkley both of whom could prove to be our saviours. They could equally be injury prone liabilities who never meet their glowing potential.
Seriously, as far as I'm concerned we are now a small club with a small club squad doing very well considering. I don't see a shred of evidence that we somehow have a great squad which only Moyes is holding back from greatness.
I'd say that our squad is a mixture of has beens, cast-offs, cheap deals and championship level dross. Stevie Pienaar, for example, is one of our best and he can't get a sniff at Spurs; Howard and Neville are not good enough for United's squad and yet one is our skipper and one an automatic choice every game. Anichebe, Coleman, Gueye, Stracq, Vellios are not EPL players; Hibbert and Osman are great club players but they are both journeymen set against the best; Drenthe is great in short sharp bursts but he is a fail at the top level; Fellaini is for me brilliant and Heitinga and Baines are probably the only EFC players that would get into a top 4 side and perhaps neither would get into United's team. So, how do we get amongst the top teams when in reality we are weaker than them all in virtually all positions?
I don't include Rodwell and Barkley both of whom could prove to be our saviours. They could equally be injury prone liabilities who never meet their glowing potential.
Seriously, as far as I'm concerned we are now a small club with a small club squad doing very well considering. I don't see a shred of evidence that we somehow have a great squad which only Moyes is holding back from greatness.
Brian Lawlor
15 Posted 23/03/2012 at 08:25:54
15 Posted 23/03/2012 at 08:25:54
Ultimately, our dull style of football has been effective in maintaining a top half finish. No one can deny that fact.
Alot of people were going on about Blackpool last year and their exciting brand of football. Look what happened to them. Granted Swansea are placing some decent football but 1) they signed a lot of players in the summer. Maybe not for bucket loads of cash but still brought in players, a lot with premier league experiences. So they'll probably stay up this season. That will probably be the extent of it, a one season wonder, I'd be very surprised if they stay another season. Personally judgement should really be reserved beyond just 7 months in the league and at least until half way through second season.
As for preferring to finish 14th than 8th. Thats just non-sensical as it would cost the club £3 million in revenue which as we know they can't afford to squander for the sake of playing more attractive football.
Our football isn't pretty to watch but as I say it has been effective over the last 10 years. I haven't seen any team even close to us consistently over that period having spent as little as us or is someone going to put me right on this?
Alot of people were going on about Blackpool last year and their exciting brand of football. Look what happened to them. Granted Swansea are placing some decent football but 1) they signed a lot of players in the summer. Maybe not for bucket loads of cash but still brought in players, a lot with premier league experiences. So they'll probably stay up this season. That will probably be the extent of it, a one season wonder, I'd be very surprised if they stay another season. Personally judgement should really be reserved beyond just 7 months in the league and at least until half way through second season.
As for preferring to finish 14th than 8th. Thats just non-sensical as it would cost the club £3 million in revenue which as we know they can't afford to squander for the sake of playing more attractive football.
Our football isn't pretty to watch but as I say it has been effective over the last 10 years. I haven't seen any team even close to us consistently over that period having spent as little as us or is someone going to put me right on this?
Peter Mills
16 Posted 23/03/2012 at 08:29:46
16 Posted 23/03/2012 at 08:29:46
Martin, those players have shown themselves to be capable of beating the best teams in the league, if only at home. Why, therefore, can they not beat lesser teams on a consistent basis? And if the answer to that is that we lack the guile to breakdown these lesser teams who come to Goodison to defend, surely we should try much harder to attack away from home?
The two main factors missing from our play are pace and movement. The first can be found in new personnel, not necessarily at great cost. The second has to be coached. Both factors have been conspicuously absent for a long time.
The two main factors missing from our play are pace and movement. The first can be found in new personnel, not necessarily at great cost. The second has to be coached. Both factors have been conspicuously absent for a long time.
Phil McKeown
17 Posted 23/03/2012 at 08:44:39
17 Posted 23/03/2012 at 08:44:39
Martin 919
We gave disagreed in the past however I agree with this post .
I think in the last few years a lot of us have been guilty of buying into the media hype that we could challenge the top 4 , the same way the 10year nonsense circulated last week .
However on the other hand I still strongly believe that with moyes natural negative attitude we are not getting the best out of what we have.
Our tactics have not progressed since 2004-05 , we are predictable and every manager knows what to expect against us . Too much emphasis on being skint and I think moyes has sucked that in . I am always dumbfounded at how any manager on so much money can make such obvious fuck ups I.e the derby . This isn't arrogance , we can all see it !
My personal opinion is that I would like him to move on with a thankyou from everyone for what he has done and how he has conducted himself(last Tuesday aside) . Only problem is whilst Kenwright is present we are going to struggle to have any kind of aspiration
We gave disagreed in the past however I agree with this post .
I think in the last few years a lot of us have been guilty of buying into the media hype that we could challenge the top 4 , the same way the 10year nonsense circulated last week .
However on the other hand I still strongly believe that with moyes natural negative attitude we are not getting the best out of what we have.
Our tactics have not progressed since 2004-05 , we are predictable and every manager knows what to expect against us . Too much emphasis on being skint and I think moyes has sucked that in . I am always dumbfounded at how any manager on so much money can make such obvious fuck ups I.e the derby . This isn't arrogance , we can all see it !
My personal opinion is that I would like him to move on with a thankyou from everyone for what he has done and how he has conducted himself(last Tuesday aside) . Only problem is whilst Kenwright is present we are going to struggle to have any kind of aspiration
Tony Marsh
18 Posted 23/03/2012 at 09:05:48
18 Posted 23/03/2012 at 09:05:48
Martin Mason (905), I am not asking for suceess as in winning trophies or qualifiying for CL berths as I know this is virtually impossible the way the game is set up and they way our finances are at present. I have fully accepted we probably won't win anything ever again at this rate but I still go the game in hope that some day we might see some real football. Under Moyes, I don't believe we ever will and I don't understand how a man in a job for so long can't see how wrong he is all the time.
We as a club need a whole new fresh approach to rid us of the state on mediocrity we find ourselves stuck in. Moyes has shown us all he has and it's not enough. If I and many others have accepted we won't win anything then at least we deserve to be entertained and excited with what we pay for. Just a little sunshine to brighten our gloomy lives when we go the football. Is that too much to ask when fans all over the country get their fix?
Keep dreaming that one day money will come and Moyes will transform because he won't. This is it; this is as good as Moyes gets. It's all very sad. I would sooner watch us lose 4-3 every week blooding youngsters, playing with strikers and letting them gel, than watching us shit out playing the Moyes brand..
We as a club need a whole new fresh approach to rid us of the state on mediocrity we find ourselves stuck in. Moyes has shown us all he has and it's not enough. If I and many others have accepted we won't win anything then at least we deserve to be entertained and excited with what we pay for. Just a little sunshine to brighten our gloomy lives when we go the football. Is that too much to ask when fans all over the country get their fix?
Keep dreaming that one day money will come and Moyes will transform because he won't. This is it; this is as good as Moyes gets. It's all very sad. I would sooner watch us lose 4-3 every week blooding youngsters, playing with strikers and letting them gel, than watching us shit out playing the Moyes brand..
Alan Williams
19 Posted 23/03/2012 at 09:20:20
19 Posted 23/03/2012 at 09:20:20
I?m not here to back Moyes but last weeks show was a big low for all us EFC fans but I don?t agree with Tony?s analogy with Swansea and Norwich who are yet to prove they can hack it consistently in the top division. The Premiership is littered with one season wonders that play the right way but sadly in time head back to the Championship and beyond. West Ham, Barnsley, Ipswich, Blackpool, WBA, Watford and Southampton the list is massive. All these clubs would swap all this to be in the place EFC is and the main problem is survival in the league comes before attractive football that will not change until we have masses of cash and that isn?t likely short term but long term the new owners will blood some new investment but I don?t think it will be investment on a large scale more organic growth. Next weeks FA Cup game has the same feeling as our trip to Boro with Walter Smith, I?m just hoping the result will be different and we get the chance to have the last laugh against the RS mid April. I?m off to Swansea this weekend so let?s see if EFC reserves can salvage some points, EFC disappointment is based around our proud history and past standing, in the modern game we no longer hold this mantle which hurts us all.
Nick Entwistle
20 Posted 23/03/2012 at 09:21:56
20 Posted 23/03/2012 at 09:21:56
"there are sides in our League who don't have money to spend big but who still knock spots off us as a football outfit. These teams also go out and have a go at the Big Boys without trepidation or fear"
Such as? Like Alan said 'one season wonder' Swansea? Didn't we beat City, Chelsea and Spurs only recently? Had our goal chalked off against Arsenal?
There's a lot of crap being spilled on these pages that follows Labour's mantra of say it long enough and people start believing it (not a queue to start a political debate!).
Such as? Like Alan said 'one season wonder' Swansea? Didn't we beat City, Chelsea and Spurs only recently? Had our goal chalked off against Arsenal?
There's a lot of crap being spilled on these pages that follows Labour's mantra of say it long enough and people start believing it (not a queue to start a political debate!).
Peter Laing
21 Posted 23/03/2012 at 09:24:39
21 Posted 23/03/2012 at 09:24:39
The acid test as you quite rightly point out Tony is the fall in attendance this season due to the dire football being served up and the gobshite of a chairman that we have to endure who has alienated a significant percentage of the fanbase (myself included) with his deceit and mismanagement. The word stagnation could not be more appropriate for where Everton are currently at.
Kevin Sparke
22 Posted 23/03/2012 at 09:35:18
22 Posted 23/03/2012 at 09:35:18
Tony was saying the same thing about Crystal Palace, Blackpool and Charlton... he basically writes the same piece every six months and swaps the name of the teams around.
So, Palace, Blackpool, Charlton... where are they now Tony?
So, Palace, Blackpool, Charlton... where are they now Tony?
Martin Mason
23 Posted 23/03/2012 at 09:25:18
23 Posted 23/03/2012 at 09:25:18
Peter@921, I agree completely. Our squad in the main is paceless donkeys with no vision and both of these qualities are needed for pace and movement. It sounds so simple but players with pace and movement are very valuable and we can't afford them.
I watched United on TV the last couple of times they played and they just bamboozled a good team like Spurs by running at them and around them, not dribbling but players making passes into space where others moved to. Valencia is sublime in this respect. the players who don't have masses of natural pace such as Scholes and now Giggs have the vision to make up for it. Even Liverpool show us up because while they are negative and play behind the ball, when they move forward they use pace and space very well sometimes.
Phil@922, Don't get me wrong; as one who has seen our great sides of the 60's and 80s it breaks my heart to see us where we are now and the football we have to play to achieve even a small modicum of success. I'll never forgive Moyes for the Derby debacle but in general I feel that he does what he feels he has to do with such a weak squad to keep us in the EPL. My own opinion and of course it's just that, there isn't a manager in the world who could get our current pace, vision and skill deficient players to play what we know as football. An absolute tragedy for our wonderful club but I fear we have not seen the worse yet. I see EFC as a club in irreversible and terminal decline, we don't just need to sell, we have to sell to a person who will be willing to spend towards a billion pounds to put us where we were in 1970. City have spent half a billion pounds to be the second best side in Manchester, add to that a new modern ground, paying off debt, owning our training ground and settin up new systems to increase revenue to make it all sustainable. It isn't going to happen though so the future is bleak as I see it
I watched United on TV the last couple of times they played and they just bamboozled a good team like Spurs by running at them and around them, not dribbling but players making passes into space where others moved to. Valencia is sublime in this respect. the players who don't have masses of natural pace such as Scholes and now Giggs have the vision to make up for it. Even Liverpool show us up because while they are negative and play behind the ball, when they move forward they use pace and space very well sometimes.
Phil@922, Don't get me wrong; as one who has seen our great sides of the 60's and 80s it breaks my heart to see us where we are now and the football we have to play to achieve even a small modicum of success. I'll never forgive Moyes for the Derby debacle but in general I feel that he does what he feels he has to do with such a weak squad to keep us in the EPL. My own opinion and of course it's just that, there isn't a manager in the world who could get our current pace, vision and skill deficient players to play what we know as football. An absolute tragedy for our wonderful club but I fear we have not seen the worse yet. I see EFC as a club in irreversible and terminal decline, we don't just need to sell, we have to sell to a person who will be willing to spend towards a billion pounds to put us where we were in 1970. City have spent half a billion pounds to be the second best side in Manchester, add to that a new modern ground, paying off debt, owning our training ground and settin up new systems to increase revenue to make it all sustainable. It isn't going to happen though so the future is bleak as I see it
Tony J Williams
24 Posted 23/03/2012 at 09:03:24
24 Posted 23/03/2012 at 09:03:24
Phil, I thought his tactics had progressed when we had Arteta, Osman, Pienaar, Yak and AJ in the side. We were getting into Europe and holding our own until we played the better more accomplished sides........ then we went three season without buying and no-one can move forward when that happens, that's why we have gone backwards.
His tactics has reverted back to keep it tight and nick a goal because the majority of our players simply aren't that good.
His tactics has reverted back to keep it tight and nick a goal because the majority of our players simply aren't that good.
Dan McKie
25 Posted 23/03/2012 at 09:56:18
25 Posted 23/03/2012 at 09:56:18
Kevin Sparke, Palace, Blackpool and Charlton never had the same class of players as Everton did/do. Like ive said before, does anyone really think Blackpool would have gone down last season if they had our back 4? No they wouldnt. The sad fact was that as good and as much as they attacked, the defenders never had the quality to defend. Imagine if holloway had been sending Arteta, Pienaar, Fellaini, Saha etc to play that type of football, with Baines, Neville, Distin and Johnny backing them up.
Also nice to hear Pienaar saying we must 'rise to the challenge' this weekend. We are playing fucking Swansea and he is suggesting we need to raise ourselves for such a mammoth challenge! Just how far have we fallen?
Also nice to hear Pienaar saying we must 'rise to the challenge' this weekend. We are playing fucking Swansea and he is suggesting we need to raise ourselves for such a mammoth challenge! Just how far have we fallen?
Tony Marsh
26 Posted 23/03/2012 at 09:50:14
26 Posted 23/03/2012 at 09:50:14
Kevin Sparke @ 927 I don't recall ever saying a thing about Palace playing good football; Blackpool, yes, I did and they were very unlucky. With a little bit of tinkering here and there, they might've stayed up. Blackpool were great to watch... or am I making that up as well?
Why mention these teams anyway? They are and always have been small time ? Everton have never been relegated in my lifetime so why compare us with them???
I use Swansea as a template for how I think a club and team can be run. Surely even you must admit what they produce with their resources at the moment is a lot better than what we get from ours. Wouldn't you like to see Everton play the way the Swansea side have been doing for years now ?not just 6 months? When did Moyes ever get a team promoted to the Premier League? What's Moyes ever done to deserve being at a top club like ours?
Oh, by the way, wasnt it you who said a while back you wouldnt be posting on here ever again because it does your head in? Must be that other Kev Sparke... the one who talks sense???
Why mention these teams anyway? They are and always have been small time ? Everton have never been relegated in my lifetime so why compare us with them???
I use Swansea as a template for how I think a club and team can be run. Surely even you must admit what they produce with their resources at the moment is a lot better than what we get from ours. Wouldn't you like to see Everton play the way the Swansea side have been doing for years now ?not just 6 months? When did Moyes ever get a team promoted to the Premier League? What's Moyes ever done to deserve being at a top club like ours?
Oh, by the way, wasnt it you who said a while back you wouldnt be posting on here ever again because it does your head in? Must be that other Kev Sparke... the one who talks sense???
Richard Dodd
27 Posted 23/03/2012 at 09:07:18
27 Posted 23/03/2012 at 09:07:18
My old man doesn`t do Toffeeweb-he hasn`t even got a computer-but I showed him the piece I did on my gift of `The Golden Vision`and he clipped my ear!
Yes,George would get on well with Tony Marsh and they could talk for ever on `the demolition of the School of Science` as he puts it.
He has never understood my championing of David Moyes who he says reminds him of his drill sergeant during National Service.`He kicked every ball for us`,he says,`and most of them went to the opposition!`
His view of Moyes is that he has `never developed as Fergie did at United`.He`s still the same manager that he was when he arrived.In fact,he believes he has developed a fear factor that was never evident in his early days.`It`s as though he`s playing draughts,he tells me.`There`s none of the cunning and beauty that there is in a good game of chess-it`s just mechanical moving of the pieces`.
Personally,I don`t buy into his theories-cleaned only from his watching Match of the Day- believing that Moyes has been the right manager for Everton in an era when a more adventurous approach would have seen us relegatated.
But,as the man says`,Football has always been a game of opinions.....`
Yes,George would get on well with Tony Marsh and they could talk for ever on `the demolition of the School of Science` as he puts it.
He has never understood my championing of David Moyes who he says reminds him of his drill sergeant during National Service.`He kicked every ball for us`,he says,`and most of them went to the opposition!`
His view of Moyes is that he has `never developed as Fergie did at United`.He`s still the same manager that he was when he arrived.In fact,he believes he has developed a fear factor that was never evident in his early days.`It`s as though he`s playing draughts,he tells me.`There`s none of the cunning and beauty that there is in a good game of chess-it`s just mechanical moving of the pieces`.
Personally,I don`t buy into his theories-cleaned only from his watching Match of the Day- believing that Moyes has been the right manager for Everton in an era when a more adventurous approach would have seen us relegatated.
But,as the man says`,Football has always been a game of opinions.....`
Andrew Ellams
28 Posted 23/03/2012 at 10:20:39
28 Posted 23/03/2012 at 10:20:39
This thread is full of people debating whether or not we will do better than Norwich or Swansea next season.
Therein folks lies our problem, that is the level this once great club has sunk to.
Therein folks lies our problem, that is the level this once great club has sunk to.
Ciarán McGlone
29 Posted 23/03/2012 at 09:06:24
29 Posted 23/03/2012 at 09:06:24
"We are a poor side with no money to improve."
-----------------
This is just nonsense. We are NOT a poor side by any stretch.
We have some very talented players, and some very talented kids. Obviously Moyes must take some credit for assembling that squad ? but he also must take the brickbats for not using them properly.
Moyes could have been a truly great manager ? only for one pretty damning trait: not being able to learn from his fucking mistakes.
Developing from experience is part of the fabric of life... 2-year-olds do it...
But does Moyes do it? not on your fucking nelly.
He's the equivalent of a 7-year-old with his fingers in his ears ....
-----------------
This is just nonsense. We are NOT a poor side by any stretch.
We have some very talented players, and some very talented kids. Obviously Moyes must take some credit for assembling that squad ? but he also must take the brickbats for not using them properly.
Moyes could have been a truly great manager ? only for one pretty damning trait: not being able to learn from his fucking mistakes.
Developing from experience is part of the fabric of life... 2-year-olds do it...
But does Moyes do it? not on your fucking nelly.
He's the equivalent of a 7-year-old with his fingers in his ears ....
Nick Entwistle
30 Posted 23/03/2012 at 10:38:53
30 Posted 23/03/2012 at 10:38:53
Not for those who think we will Andrew.
Barry Rathbone
31 Posted 23/03/2012 at 09:59:25
31 Posted 23/03/2012 at 09:59:25
We live in an age where everyone has an excuse so quoting Swansea and Norwich as contrary examples to the money argument just pisses people off, mostly Moyes supporters it has to be said.
it matters not a jot what happens next season the proof is here now, since when has playing decent football been the common factor for relegation?
The majority of relegated teams are unhappy, grinders along the lines of Mcarthys Wolves, a club and team I see us morphing into season by season.
Swansea have more than matched the monied elite in footballing terms and will finish around the same position as us, yet obstinate fans put Moyes with the catchall financial excuse before the clubs future.
30k against Arsenal is the real marker.
it matters not a jot what happens next season the proof is here now, since when has playing decent football been the common factor for relegation?
The majority of relegated teams are unhappy, grinders along the lines of Mcarthys Wolves, a club and team I see us morphing into season by season.
Swansea have more than matched the monied elite in footballing terms and will finish around the same position as us, yet obstinate fans put Moyes with the catchall financial excuse before the clubs future.
30k against Arsenal is the real marker.
Eugene Ruane
32 Posted 23/03/2012 at 10:26:51
32 Posted 23/03/2012 at 10:26:51
For me, some (a lot?) of the differences of opinion re entertainment and expectation are possibly age/experience related.
Understandably so I suppose.
I mean if you've only ever eaten hamburger, you wouldn't miss a fillet steak.
(what I don't understand though is those who seem happy with own-brand hamburgers - 8 for a nicker, 9% beef)
Understandably so I suppose.
I mean if you've only ever eaten hamburger, you wouldn't miss a fillet steak.
(what I don't understand though is those who seem happy with own-brand hamburgers - 8 for a nicker, 9% beef)
Peter Bradshaw
33 Posted 23/03/2012 at 10:02:51
33 Posted 23/03/2012 at 10:02:51
Cant believe so of the comments on here saying we have a poor side. Martin Mason are you drunk.
We have a reasonable keeper, prone to the odd clanger but who isnt.
The defense, we have a weak spot at right back, thats it, Jonny and Distan look very solid and Baines is class.
Midfield we have a class player in Fellaini, when played in the correct position and I believe Gibson is a great buy to play alongside him, gives the centre midfield great balance. Either side on the right, yes we have another issue on the left, hopefully we can buy Pienaar otherwise Drenthe.
On saying that I would love to see Drenthe taking over from Cahill, he has the skill and the speed and scares defences
Up front the Jellyman with Drenthe playing off him
We have up coming stars in the making and a few players who are up to their sell buy dates (Hibbert, Neville and Osman)
There is a basis of a good team that could take on the best and start to win again.
The problems we have are that dour defensive anti football arsehead of a manager and skint Bill.
Our players will never again believe we are a good side, thanks to the technology of our friends at sky here in Australia I can watch every match home and away live and you can hear that F@@@ING idiot shouting instructions none stop.
No wonder the likes of Rodwell, Coleman and Gueye look bemused all the time, you follow all those instructions you just go round in circles.
He is killing the club and it does my head in we have idiots who still think hes the dogs bollocks.
Another thing, I got that cheesed off watching one of Evertons games ( cant remember which one they start to become a blare after a while) I turned over and watched Blackburn. Steve Kean was about to bring Yak on , his instructions "go get me a goal" Yaks reply "yeah no problem"
The man needs to go NOW we are safe, if anyone says " be careful what you wish for" the answer "what is worse"
Tony Marsh, keep writing mate.
We have a reasonable keeper, prone to the odd clanger but who isnt.
The defense, we have a weak spot at right back, thats it, Jonny and Distan look very solid and Baines is class.
Midfield we have a class player in Fellaini, when played in the correct position and I believe Gibson is a great buy to play alongside him, gives the centre midfield great balance. Either side on the right, yes we have another issue on the left, hopefully we can buy Pienaar otherwise Drenthe.
On saying that I would love to see Drenthe taking over from Cahill, he has the skill and the speed and scares defences
Up front the Jellyman with Drenthe playing off him
We have up coming stars in the making and a few players who are up to their sell buy dates (Hibbert, Neville and Osman)
There is a basis of a good team that could take on the best and start to win again.
The problems we have are that dour defensive anti football arsehead of a manager and skint Bill.
Our players will never again believe we are a good side, thanks to the technology of our friends at sky here in Australia I can watch every match home and away live and you can hear that F@@@ING idiot shouting instructions none stop.
No wonder the likes of Rodwell, Coleman and Gueye look bemused all the time, you follow all those instructions you just go round in circles.
He is killing the club and it does my head in we have idiots who still think hes the dogs bollocks.
Another thing, I got that cheesed off watching one of Evertons games ( cant remember which one they start to become a blare after a while) I turned over and watched Blackburn. Steve Kean was about to bring Yak on , his instructions "go get me a goal" Yaks reply "yeah no problem"
The man needs to go NOW we are safe, if anyone says " be careful what you wish for" the answer "what is worse"
Tony Marsh, keep writing mate.
Martin Mason
34 Posted 23/03/2012 at 10:45:37
34 Posted 23/03/2012 at 10:45:37
Andrew@934
One of the major problems with the level to which we have sunk is that many Evertonians still can't understand or accept that it has happened. Having been a great club is no guarantee that you are going to stay one. I firmly believe that our decline started in 1970 not when Kenwright came. BK is just switching the lights off, putting the cat out and locking the door. It is possible that one day in the not too distant future we will look back on these days wistfully.
One of the major problems with the level to which we have sunk is that many Evertonians still can't understand or accept that it has happened. Having been a great club is no guarantee that you are going to stay one. I firmly believe that our decline started in 1970 not when Kenwright came. BK is just switching the lights off, putting the cat out and locking the door. It is possible that one day in the not too distant future we will look back on these days wistfully.
Derek Thomas
35 Posted 23/03/2012 at 09:44:35
35 Posted 23/03/2012 at 09:44:35
Martin928; so the future is bleak, you hate Moyes tactics, etc, etc, yep, yep, yep, with you there, all the way to...Moyes does what he feels he has to, TOTAL BOLLOCKS. He does the only thing he knows how to do...keep it tight and pinch one.
He won't let players pass or push forward or run into space, because if it breaks down as it sometime does, the KITAP1 method is undone at a stroke, they are in behind you coz you've pushed too far forward.
I don't completely buy in to Moyes has had no money Bily, Yak, Fellaini, Johnny H, AJ 30+ mill. But with hindsight ( yes I know always easy ) due to various circumstances, taken as a whole their success rate combined was barely 60%. With bily being a big fat zero and what did we get out of the yak and AJ ?? 20 months
It is a lot easier to do the KITAP1 than it is to play the pass and move game because there are more chances for error. But what the apologistas fail to grasp is that while it maybe good to over-acheive with KITAP1, once you start under-acheiving you go down.
And round and round the arguement goes...all these attacking flavours of the season finish below Moyes, while failing to grasp; what would any of the A.F.o.t.S. do with 10yrs and 30+ mill...and would our attendances be dropping with decent football to watch.
There is no proof that any Moyes replacement will be automatically worse. Round and round it goes, be careful what you wish for, Moyes has steadied the ship, do you want to go back to the Walter/Walker years.
Goes out on limb, nails colours to mast. etc .
You can't like decent football and support Moyes
More and More are deciding that they don't want to watch and pay for shite.
I know what I am, what are you? and when will you wake up to the fact that this zombie football, this anti-football is slowly killing the Club and more of the same KITAP1 is not an option
He won't let players pass or push forward or run into space, because if it breaks down as it sometime does, the KITAP1 method is undone at a stroke, they are in behind you coz you've pushed too far forward.
I don't completely buy in to Moyes has had no money Bily, Yak, Fellaini, Johnny H, AJ 30+ mill. But with hindsight ( yes I know always easy ) due to various circumstances, taken as a whole their success rate combined was barely 60%. With bily being a big fat zero and what did we get out of the yak and AJ ?? 20 months
It is a lot easier to do the KITAP1 than it is to play the pass and move game because there are more chances for error. But what the apologistas fail to grasp is that while it maybe good to over-acheive with KITAP1, once you start under-acheiving you go down.
And round and round the arguement goes...all these attacking flavours of the season finish below Moyes, while failing to grasp; what would any of the A.F.o.t.S. do with 10yrs and 30+ mill...and would our attendances be dropping with decent football to watch.
There is no proof that any Moyes replacement will be automatically worse. Round and round it goes, be careful what you wish for, Moyes has steadied the ship, do you want to go back to the Walter/Walker years.
Goes out on limb, nails colours to mast. etc .
You can't like decent football and support Moyes
More and More are deciding that they don't want to watch and pay for shite.
I know what I am, what are you? and when will you wake up to the fact that this zombie football, this anti-football is slowly killing the Club and more of the same KITAP1 is not an option
Andy Meighan
36 Posted 23/03/2012 at 10:40:48
36 Posted 23/03/2012 at 10:40:48
Spot on, Tony... great article.
I've backed Moyes in the past but I find myself increasingly beginning to dislike the man. After 40-odd years of going the game regularly, this season has thrown up some of the most mind-numbing, tediously slow, predictable football I've seen at Goodison.
And that's saying something with some of the shite we've had to witness, ie, Lee's side, Walker... Kendall Mk III ? well worse sides than what we've got now but at least they tried to change things.
The thing with Moyes is he's unwilling to change. His insistence on getting Cahill, Neville, Hibbert, Osman, Jagielka (when fit) into the line-up has me screaming with rage. Yes, they've all been good servants but, mark my word, they wouldn't get in any of the top 10 sides.
The lack of creativity, the lack of style, the lack of swagger in our play is awful. Everything's so predictable and methodical. It annoys me when I hear supporters of other clubs and the talking-head pundits praising him like he's some sort of messiah ? he's not, believe me. They want to try paying to go and watch this shit brand of hoofball we have to put up with.
I've thought long and hard about spewing it this season and then I've thought, "Why should I?" I'd stop seeing lads who I've socialised with for donkey's years... plus my young son loves it as well... poor lad doesn't realise what he's letting himself in for.
The thing is, I cant see no light at the end of the tunnel because we're stuck with him at least for another five years... What a miserable thought! I'll never forgive him for March 13th, never, ever. The day he sold us down the river. If Everton was a woman, you'd have walked out years ago ? and kicked her arse while you were shutting the door!
I've backed Moyes in the past but I find myself increasingly beginning to dislike the man. After 40-odd years of going the game regularly, this season has thrown up some of the most mind-numbing, tediously slow, predictable football I've seen at Goodison.
And that's saying something with some of the shite we've had to witness, ie, Lee's side, Walker... Kendall Mk III ? well worse sides than what we've got now but at least they tried to change things.
The thing with Moyes is he's unwilling to change. His insistence on getting Cahill, Neville, Hibbert, Osman, Jagielka (when fit) into the line-up has me screaming with rage. Yes, they've all been good servants but, mark my word, they wouldn't get in any of the top 10 sides.
The lack of creativity, the lack of style, the lack of swagger in our play is awful. Everything's so predictable and methodical. It annoys me when I hear supporters of other clubs and the talking-head pundits praising him like he's some sort of messiah ? he's not, believe me. They want to try paying to go and watch this shit brand of hoofball we have to put up with.
I've thought long and hard about spewing it this season and then I've thought, "Why should I?" I'd stop seeing lads who I've socialised with for donkey's years... plus my young son loves it as well... poor lad doesn't realise what he's letting himself in for.
The thing is, I cant see no light at the end of the tunnel because we're stuck with him at least for another five years... What a miserable thought! I'll never forgive him for March 13th, never, ever. The day he sold us down the river. If Everton was a woman, you'd have walked out years ago ? and kicked her arse while you were shutting the door!
Martin Mason
37 Posted 23/03/2012 at 10:58:31
37 Posted 23/03/2012 at 10:58:31
Peter as I said OPINION splits into two camps. Yours is just one of them and remember that. My side is also the majority view not only amongst Evertonians but also within the game itself.
In terms of our class of squad, Gibson wasn't good enough for United and that is exactly the point I was making, United root out poor players and sell them quickly; we buy them. Coming through we have Shane Duffy who is a journeyman central defender, Barkley and Rodwell who have massive potential but are injury crocks and who else?
You can't compete with the likes of Man United by signing players who aren't good enough to play for them.
In terms of our class of squad, Gibson wasn't good enough for United and that is exactly the point I was making, United root out poor players and sell them quickly; we buy them. Coming through we have Shane Duffy who is a journeyman central defender, Barkley and Rodwell who have massive potential but are injury crocks and who else?
You can't compete with the likes of Man United by signing players who aren't good enough to play for them.
Tony J Williams
38 Posted 23/03/2012 at 10:22:29
38 Posted 23/03/2012 at 10:22:29
"We are playing fucking Swansea and he is suggesting we need to raise ourselves for such a mammoth challenge! Just how far have we fallen" - Apparantly they are a brilliant team with a fantastic coach according to some on here.
It can't be both ways, either they are shite and the smoke being blown up their manager's arse is a joke, or he is a good manager getting his players to play well...they are also above us in the league so what is it?
It can't be both ways, either they are shite and the smoke being blown up their manager's arse is a joke, or he is a good manager getting his players to play well...they are also above us in the league so what is it?
Peter Bradshaw
39 Posted 23/03/2012 at 11:25:05
39 Posted 23/03/2012 at 11:25:05
Martin Mason, reminder Kevin Sheedy couldnt get into the Liverpool squad, Kanchelskis was in and out the Man Utd team, Dave Watson couldnt get a contract at Liverpool, Leighton Baines was realeased by Everton. Distan couldnt get his place at City and was sold to Portsmouth.
Just because Gibson cant get a place in the Utd squad doesnt make him a poor play, I think limited would be a better word but I think he compliments Fellaini and will make a good partnership.
I agree its my opinion but the echo's of my opinion are getting more and more apparent every week.
Moyes now is a liability, his time is up.
Just because Gibson cant get a place in the Utd squad doesnt make him a poor play, I think limited would be a better word but I think he compliments Fellaini and will make a good partnership.
I agree its my opinion but the echo's of my opinion are getting more and more apparent every week.
Moyes now is a liability, his time is up.
Derek Thomas
40 Posted 23/03/2012 at 11:31:39
40 Posted 23/03/2012 at 11:31:39
Martin 945; I've said it before and here it is again..away and fcuk spiders. You mention OPINION, then say ( with seemingly absolute certainty ) that you are in the majority. From where I sit you are in a majority of 1, in fact given that we all spout just opinion we are all in a majority of 1. So that's 1-1. But of course everybody is equal, but you of course are more equal than others.
Moyes is slowly killing this Club, with a little help from his friends on the Board and Sky. You say you don't like his tactics, but doing nothing is not an option. To stand still is to fall behind.
Moyes is slowly killing this Club, with a little help from his friends on the Board and Sky. You say you don't like his tactics, but doing nothing is not an option. To stand still is to fall behind.
Martin Mason
41 Posted 23/03/2012 at 11:45:51
41 Posted 23/03/2012 at 11:45:51
Peter, yes but Liverpool didn?t want to sell Sheedy and were absolutely pissed that we stole him. Kanchelskis was an automatic pick for United until he fell out with whiskey face, Distin was a city regular but went to Portsmouth for the money, I watched him play brilliantly for City at Everton just before he moved and City fans really rated him. Leighton Baines is different because he was at an age where he hadn?t developed and wasn?t considered to have the potential. That happens a lot with developing players. Gibson had reached his potential and wasn?t good enough for United and United fans rated him as never good enough. He improves our team a lot and that is really evidence of how poor our team is not how good it is. He is a great player for EFC but that makes it all the more sad.
Tony J Williams
42 Posted 23/03/2012 at 11:59:33
42 Posted 23/03/2012 at 11:59:33
You are fighting a losing battle Martin, apparently our players and managger are shite but yet people get angry when they don't win all the time.... you can't argue with that logic
Martin Mason
43 Posted 23/03/2012 at 12:09:10
43 Posted 23/03/2012 at 12:09:10
Peter, I'm afraid that expectations of some are far higher than the ability of the club to deliver. I'm not being harsh on the side for not being great btw, I think we have a fine squad for the money the Moyes has spent putting it together. It's poor when you look at the top sides who some believe that we should be competing with. I for one believe that were are actually successful and that while we can't compete with the top clubs our particular Everest is giving them a bloody nose occasionally.
Peter Bradshaw
44 Posted 23/03/2012 at 12:02:10
44 Posted 23/03/2012 at 12:02:10
Tony thats just rubbish, Everton have a reasonable to a good team now, but they are being held back by tactics and a mindset that has been found out and a stubborness of a manager who has taken a club as far as he can.
I can frustrated when people fail to admit that Moyes has his limitations and has gone stale.
With regard to being angry, I live in a fantastic country, live on 25 acres of land huge house no mortgage, two kids in university and a wife that understands me as an Evertonian, what more is there?
I can frustrated when people fail to admit that Moyes has his limitations and has gone stale.
With regard to being angry, I live in a fantastic country, live on 25 acres of land huge house no mortgage, two kids in university and a wife that understands me as an Evertonian, what more is there?
Peter Bradshaw
45 Posted 23/03/2012 at 12:18:19
45 Posted 23/03/2012 at 12:18:19
Sorry guys spelling has gone to shit now, on my fourth Jim Beam and coke on the varandah and the lap top keeps falling off the lap!
Dan McKie
46 Posted 23/03/2012 at 12:25:36
46 Posted 23/03/2012 at 12:25:36
"We are playing fucking Swansea and he is suggesting we need to raise ourselves for such a mammoth challenge! Just how far have we fallen" - Apparantly they are a brilliant team with a fantastic coach according to some on here.
It can't be both ways, either they are shite and the smoke being blown up their manager's arse is a joke, or he is a good manager getting his players to play well...they are also above us in the league so what is it?
Tony, they are a decent team with a decent coach, but my point is, when did we fall behind them, and how? They are spending their first season ever in the top flight of english football, but our players are coming out suggesting we need to raise our game to challenge. Shouldnt it be them raising their game to face Everton, top flight since god knows when? They still have players that were playing for them in league 2. I admire the way they play, but man fr man, if we went out and played the same, we would/should win, but we play crap defensive football and will let them come at us rather than us go at them. Swansea are a team that Everton fans would normally be singing 'who the fuckin ell are you?' or 'youve never won fuckall', not hoping we can raise our game enough to go there and nick a point!
It can't be both ways, either they are shite and the smoke being blown up their manager's arse is a joke, or he is a good manager getting his players to play well...they are also above us in the league so what is it?
Tony, they are a decent team with a decent coach, but my point is, when did we fall behind them, and how? They are spending their first season ever in the top flight of english football, but our players are coming out suggesting we need to raise our game to challenge. Shouldnt it be them raising their game to face Everton, top flight since god knows when? They still have players that were playing for them in league 2. I admire the way they play, but man fr man, if we went out and played the same, we would/should win, but we play crap defensive football and will let them come at us rather than us go at them. Swansea are a team that Everton fans would normally be singing 'who the fuckin ell are you?' or 'youve never won fuckall', not hoping we can raise our game enough to go there and nick a point!
Martin Mason
47 Posted 23/03/2012 at 12:40:27
47 Posted 23/03/2012 at 12:40:27
Very sorry, in my post above I should have said Tony W not "Peter"
Peter B@955
Please don't get frustrated it's just an opinion that's all.
The house and everything sounds great pity it's in Australia.:-)
Peter B@955
Please don't get frustrated it's just an opinion that's all.
The house and everything sounds great pity it's in Australia.:-)
James Martin
48 Posted 23/03/2012 at 12:38:37
48 Posted 23/03/2012 at 12:38:37
Sorry but who are all these attacking teams in the Premier League that have less than us but are playing great football?
There's probably one team, Swansea who have the higher league position and are playing better (if you put aside their league performance at Goodsion that everyone's forgotten about). That said, everyone's still expecting us to smash them on Saturday and I fully expect us to finish ahead of them.
If we're part of the 'nick a goal and keep it tight' group, then who constitute the other group? Don't say Norwich or Newcastle because they've only done (albeit successfully) what they did in the Championship, bashing it back to front to two good strikers. They're more long ball than we are.
Then there's Blakburn (does anyone really want Kean as a manager, even with those words of genius he whispered to Yakubu?) whose atrocious early season form has been forgotten on the back of a few wins.
Who else is there? Stoke, Villa, Bolton, QPR (one win against the RS doesn't negate a whole season of tepid footbal), Wigan, West Brom, Sunderland? All playing worse football than us; the majority of them will finish lower than us in the league.
Whole arguments are being based on the one anomaly of Swansea who play well and haven't followed Blackpool and West Brom to relegation (yet). Let's see how Rodgers manages when big clubs pick his players, injuries bite, the opposition work you out, and the realities of long-term Premier League management hit him.
Anyhow, despite what people say, I'm not going to retrospectively project the style of play now onto the last 10 years. No-one can convince me that this Swansea team are playing better football than we were a few seasons back with Arteta, Pienaar, Baines, Lescott and Yakubu in full flow. It was exciting to watch, we absolutely wiped the floor with some teams and we saw some great games at Goodison. Don't just pretend it didn't happen.
There's probably one team, Swansea who have the higher league position and are playing better (if you put aside their league performance at Goodsion that everyone's forgotten about). That said, everyone's still expecting us to smash them on Saturday and I fully expect us to finish ahead of them.
If we're part of the 'nick a goal and keep it tight' group, then who constitute the other group? Don't say Norwich or Newcastle because they've only done (albeit successfully) what they did in the Championship, bashing it back to front to two good strikers. They're more long ball than we are.
Then there's Blakburn (does anyone really want Kean as a manager, even with those words of genius he whispered to Yakubu?) whose atrocious early season form has been forgotten on the back of a few wins.
Who else is there? Stoke, Villa, Bolton, QPR (one win against the RS doesn't negate a whole season of tepid footbal), Wigan, West Brom, Sunderland? All playing worse football than us; the majority of them will finish lower than us in the league.
Whole arguments are being based on the one anomaly of Swansea who play well and haven't followed Blackpool and West Brom to relegation (yet). Let's see how Rodgers manages when big clubs pick his players, injuries bite, the opposition work you out, and the realities of long-term Premier League management hit him.
Anyhow, despite what people say, I'm not going to retrospectively project the style of play now onto the last 10 years. No-one can convince me that this Swansea team are playing better football than we were a few seasons back with Arteta, Pienaar, Baines, Lescott and Yakubu in full flow. It was exciting to watch, we absolutely wiped the floor with some teams and we saw some great games at Goodison. Don't just pretend it didn't happen.
Tommy Coleman
49 Posted 23/03/2012 at 12:42:51
49 Posted 23/03/2012 at 12:42:51
Liverpool fans want him to stay for 10 more years.
You don't need any more facts than that.
You don't need any more facts than that.
Dave Wilson
50 Posted 23/03/2012 at 11:30:29
50 Posted 23/03/2012 at 11:30:29
Entertainment? ... ENTERTAINMENT?
Years ago, we all used pay to watch proffessional football because we would see players do things with a ball we couldn't do ourselves. Those days dissappeared years ago. Today's Premier League is full of superfit, but hopelessly untalented workhorses.
Sure there are still your David Silvas, RVPs and Wayne Rooneys, but they play for the highest bidder.
English Football today is a competition, battle, tribal conflict, 95% of Premier League games have nothing to do with entertainment.
Tony Hibbert, Phil Neville, Phil Jagielka, Seamus Coleman, Tim Cahill, Straq, Big Vic, may prove year after year that the can compete, struggle, battle better than the players of 14/15 other clubs... but entertainment?
If you want entertainment, follow a Spanish team or go the pics.
The crash bang wallop EPL traded skill for incident years ago and if any of the above-mentioned players can do things with a ball that you can't/couldn't, then you had no business playing the fucken game.
The mass exodus everyone keeps talking about still hasn't happened ? despite having traditionaly big attendance fixtures moved ? our average league gate is still above 33,000. We were sold out in the cup last week and we are taking 6,000 fans to Sunderland.
Those people reacted to rousing performances against, Chelsea, City and Spurs, the old lady was rocking. Sure they would welcome more games like that but the majority know and have know for some time that this is competition, not entertainment.
The ex-match goer expects too much for the pound he doesn't spend. He wants to see Alex Young again, he wants to see the Holy Trinity strut their stuff, he misses the matchday bevy with his mates, he misses the atmosphere, he even misses his pie dinner on Goodison Rd. But if he thinks English football is still about entertainment, he is deluding himself.
Football is unrehearsed live competition, "You play/we play" doesn't exist anymore, every teams sets out to stop the opposition and although MotD may make other teams games look like the other man's grass, most are similar attritional battles.
If your matchday experience is solely down to the 90 minutes you see when you log on to firstrow sports or switch on Fox TV you need to do it as a supporter of a team in battle. If you're looking for high skills and "entertainment", the EPL is not for you ... no matter who you support.
Years ago, we all used pay to watch proffessional football because we would see players do things with a ball we couldn't do ourselves. Those days dissappeared years ago. Today's Premier League is full of superfit, but hopelessly untalented workhorses.
Sure there are still your David Silvas, RVPs and Wayne Rooneys, but they play for the highest bidder.
English Football today is a competition, battle, tribal conflict, 95% of Premier League games have nothing to do with entertainment.
Tony Hibbert, Phil Neville, Phil Jagielka, Seamus Coleman, Tim Cahill, Straq, Big Vic, may prove year after year that the can compete, struggle, battle better than the players of 14/15 other clubs... but entertainment?
If you want entertainment, follow a Spanish team or go the pics.
The crash bang wallop EPL traded skill for incident years ago and if any of the above-mentioned players can do things with a ball that you can't/couldn't, then you had no business playing the fucken game.
The mass exodus everyone keeps talking about still hasn't happened ? despite having traditionaly big attendance fixtures moved ? our average league gate is still above 33,000. We were sold out in the cup last week and we are taking 6,000 fans to Sunderland.
Those people reacted to rousing performances against, Chelsea, City and Spurs, the old lady was rocking. Sure they would welcome more games like that but the majority know and have know for some time that this is competition, not entertainment.
The ex-match goer expects too much for the pound he doesn't spend. He wants to see Alex Young again, he wants to see the Holy Trinity strut their stuff, he misses the matchday bevy with his mates, he misses the atmosphere, he even misses his pie dinner on Goodison Rd. But if he thinks English football is still about entertainment, he is deluding himself.
Football is unrehearsed live competition, "You play/we play" doesn't exist anymore, every teams sets out to stop the opposition and although MotD may make other teams games look like the other man's grass, most are similar attritional battles.
If your matchday experience is solely down to the 90 minutes you see when you log on to firstrow sports or switch on Fox TV you need to do it as a supporter of a team in battle. If you're looking for high skills and "entertainment", the EPL is not for you ... no matter who you support.
Anthony Jones
51 Posted 23/03/2012 at 12:45:10
51 Posted 23/03/2012 at 12:45:10
John Barnes, please tell me you once played for Liverpool.
Martin Mason, wanting to see non-shithouse football is not directly linked to delusions of grandeur.
Eugene Ruane, my first match involved Stuart McCall, Neil Pointon, and Adrian Heath, and it was utter shite. I still want to watch good football.
Martin Mason, wanting to see non-shithouse football is not directly linked to delusions of grandeur.
Eugene Ruane, my first match involved Stuart McCall, Neil Pointon, and Adrian Heath, and it was utter shite. I still want to watch good football.
Martin Mason
52 Posted 23/03/2012 at 13:01:58
52 Posted 23/03/2012 at 13:01:58
James, you are right. How are we expected to be anywhere near as good when we have lost so many players who were good. When I look back I realise how good Lescott and how much we've missed him.
Jonathan Tasker
53 Posted 23/03/2012 at 13:09:26
53 Posted 23/03/2012 at 13:09:26
Top scorer.
3 goals.
FFS
3 goals.
FFS
Dan McKie
54 Posted 23/03/2012 at 13:13:32
54 Posted 23/03/2012 at 13:13:32
James, Martin, we started the defensive stuff long before those players left. The free flowing football lasted a few months, then just stopped. Why?
Wayne Smyth
55 Posted 23/03/2012 at 13:07:03
55 Posted 23/03/2012 at 13:07:03
I was going to post a fairly long response with reasoned arguments why I think Moyes should be got rid of, but to be honest, I can't be arsed anymore.
When Moyes came to the club, he raised our expectations about what we could achieve and where we should be aiming. He didn't have a lot of money to spend, certainly not to compete with the top 4, but he did have energy and belief and talked us up and made us compete with the top 4.
He's spent the last 5 years lowering our expectations to the point where he thinks we should be happy with a losing the last game just because we won the one before that.
Regardless of what we say here, he's not going to be got rid of and I think he'll continue to stay on and pick up his measly £3M+ salary in order to work under the high pressure, results based environment that Kenwright puts him under.
When Moyes came to the club, he raised our expectations about what we could achieve and where we should be aiming. He didn't have a lot of money to spend, certainly not to compete with the top 4, but he did have energy and belief and talked us up and made us compete with the top 4.
He's spent the last 5 years lowering our expectations to the point where he thinks we should be happy with a losing the last game just because we won the one before that.
Regardless of what we say here, he's not going to be got rid of and I think he'll continue to stay on and pick up his measly £3M+ salary in order to work under the high pressure, results based environment that Kenwright puts him under.
Wayne Smyth
56 Posted 23/03/2012 at 13:18:33
56 Posted 23/03/2012 at 13:18:33
Jonathan, I reckon thats 3 goals too many for Moyes.
The only type of goal Moyes probably would like to see us score was Tim Howards, because he was still in our own fucking penalty area when he scored it and therefore was able to defend if required.
I'd not be surprised to see him getting Jelavic et al to practice their 100 yard punts in training.
The only type of goal Moyes probably would like to see us score was Tim Howards, because he was still in our own fucking penalty area when he scored it and therefore was able to defend if required.
I'd not be surprised to see him getting Jelavic et al to practice their 100 yard punts in training.
Roger Sunde
57 Posted 23/03/2012 at 13:07:34
57 Posted 23/03/2012 at 13:07:34
We're in top 10 and still have a chance to get into the FA Cup semi-final. If anyone thought we would have a better season than that with the current squad, you're living in a dream world.
You cant compare us to Swansea or Norwich, PL always have newcomers that overperform. (Blackpool in start last season, Hull etc)
You cant compare us to Swansea or Norwich, PL always have newcomers that overperform. (Blackpool in start last season, Hull etc)
Martin Mason
58 Posted 23/03/2012 at 13:31:06
58 Posted 23/03/2012 at 13:31:06
Dan
I've had a long period away and for most of Moyes's tenure I've only been able to see games on TV and then not so many. I remember at times being amazed how well we played especially during a period when Arteta played on the right side of midfield and was outrageously good.
When I watched the Liverpool and Sunderland games, I was appalled and ashamed at how poor we are now. We were very lucky we had that good 8-game run because, with our early season form and our dire form now, we maybe could have been down there in relegation territory.
I've had a long period away and for most of Moyes's tenure I've only been able to see games on TV and then not so many. I remember at times being amazed how well we played especially during a period when Arteta played on the right side of midfield and was outrageously good.
When I watched the Liverpool and Sunderland games, I was appalled and ashamed at how poor we are now. We were very lucky we had that good 8-game run because, with our early season form and our dire form now, we maybe could have been down there in relegation territory.
Tony J Williams
59 Posted 23/03/2012 at 13:37:41
59 Posted 23/03/2012 at 13:37:41
"but they are being held back by tactics and a mindset that has been found out and a stubborness of a manager who has taken a club as far as he can" - Yes he is too conservative/defensive but that doesn't detract from the fact that we have players who seem to be unable to hit a ball harder than a 5 year old girl, keep a shot on target from 15 yards, unable to mark a man, unable to leave their line for a corner.
Personally, especially on Wednesday, I can't understand why he doesn't leave Drenthe on the half way line, as you would see two, probably threee defenders marking him for his pace and they would be wary of him.
Getting back on point, tactics can get you so far but if they players don't do their jobs properly - ie pass to a man and move, there's only so much you can expect your team to do.
Personally, especially on Wednesday, I can't understand why he doesn't leave Drenthe on the half way line, as you would see two, probably threee defenders marking him for his pace and they would be wary of him.
Getting back on point, tactics can get you so far but if they players don't do their jobs properly - ie pass to a man and move, there's only so much you can expect your team to do.
Dan McKie
60 Posted 23/03/2012 at 13:38:38
60 Posted 23/03/2012 at 13:38:38
The good football we played was times when we destroyed Sunderland 7-1 and were winning European games by 3 and 4 goals a time. That was 5 years ago now, and even our good run this year didn't include much good football. Man City didn't turn up, and the Spurs game could have easily ended a draw or loss with the way we just sat back for the entire 2nd half.
Like Wayne says, Moyes plays everything down and doesn't seem to instill any belief in the team. The derby disaster was a disgrace, and the 'knife to a gunfight' was a shocking thing to say before a game against anyone, nevermind teams that you have been playing in the same league as for years. To me its time for him to go and bring someone new in to freshen things up.
Like Wayne says, Moyes plays everything down and doesn't seem to instill any belief in the team. The derby disaster was a disgrace, and the 'knife to a gunfight' was a shocking thing to say before a game against anyone, nevermind teams that you have been playing in the same league as for years. To me its time for him to go and bring someone new in to freshen things up.
Dan McKie
61 Posted 23/03/2012 at 13:45:34
61 Posted 23/03/2012 at 13:45:34
Tony, the players we have that cant hit a ball as hard as a 5 year old girl are usually the first names on the team sheet. Another of the managers faults.
James Mullarkey
62 Posted 23/03/2012 at 13:36:39
62 Posted 23/03/2012 at 13:36:39
I have watched the Blues for nearly 40 years. I don't go as much now because of the finances and also because it's really boring.
I have always backed Moyes and have indeed slagged off certain contributions on here calling for Moyes's and Kenwright's head. I changed my mind as a result of the disgraceful cowardly act going into the derby last week.
I remember like it was yesterday coming home on the train from the 1986 cup final with 'Were all laughing at Everton Ha, Ha etc...' I was at the other two finals in 1984 & 1989, the 0-5 in 1981 & the semi-final in 1977 which we 'won' 3-2. I have had a bellyfull of them patronising us and ridiculing us for all these years.
Those games we have won have been great occasions. The Gosling game was one of the best, to see them beaten in the last seconds. I will never stop hating Liverpool for as long as I live.
There have been many times over recent years when we have had the opportunity to put them down but it always seems to be at Anfield and Moyes is too negative. Let's face it, they're not even good, are they!
Now as we face a Sunderland replay I am torn between wanting victory & defeat. I know that if we win they will beat us at Wembley again and the gloating will go on. To be fair, I haven't had much stick from the last derby because they genuinely are laughing at us and are praying we beat Sunderland.
Steven Gerrard still has an influence on the pitch because he is their leader but, apart from a goal v Necastle in December, he's done nothing until of course he scores 3 against us and together with Henderson, Carrol & Spearing (yes and he is total shite) is made to look like a world beater.
So simply all I want to say is..... MOYES OUT!!
I have always backed Moyes and have indeed slagged off certain contributions on here calling for Moyes's and Kenwright's head. I changed my mind as a result of the disgraceful cowardly act going into the derby last week.
I remember like it was yesterday coming home on the train from the 1986 cup final with 'Were all laughing at Everton Ha, Ha etc...' I was at the other two finals in 1984 & 1989, the 0-5 in 1981 & the semi-final in 1977 which we 'won' 3-2. I have had a bellyfull of them patronising us and ridiculing us for all these years.
Those games we have won have been great occasions. The Gosling game was one of the best, to see them beaten in the last seconds. I will never stop hating Liverpool for as long as I live.
There have been many times over recent years when we have had the opportunity to put them down but it always seems to be at Anfield and Moyes is too negative. Let's face it, they're not even good, are they!
Now as we face a Sunderland replay I am torn between wanting victory & defeat. I know that if we win they will beat us at Wembley again and the gloating will go on. To be fair, I haven't had much stick from the last derby because they genuinely are laughing at us and are praying we beat Sunderland.
Steven Gerrard still has an influence on the pitch because he is their leader but, apart from a goal v Necastle in December, he's done nothing until of course he scores 3 against us and together with Henderson, Carrol & Spearing (yes and he is total shite) is made to look like a world beater.
So simply all I want to say is..... MOYES OUT!!
Greg Murphy
63 Posted 23/03/2012 at 13:56:11
63 Posted 23/03/2012 at 13:56:11
Andrew at 900.
I really don't think it is a minority viewpoint any longer. Genuinely don't, bud. I think the fans are split quite evenly at present. 40% are committed Moyes-outers. 40% can see no wrong. 20% ? for whatever reason ? are wavering. Whatever happens in the next five days will dictate whether the Moyes-outers become a majority for the first time in his reign. I'm convinced of that. Having said all that, all this is just my straw-hunch that the fans are split along those lines. I could be wrong.
What I do know for a fact, though, is this: this time last year, even perhaps as late as Christmas, it was near enough taboo to even talk in certain quarters about having grown tired of Moyes (at best you'd be considered an irreconcilable crank). Many fans were still genuinely shocked to discover that there were fellow Evertonians who wanted Moyes gone. They're not now. Even the most die-hard Moyes loyalist knows that at least there's a debate to be had now.
That's quite a change in this season alone; and if I had to point to one pivotal early season moment that changed the debate from being taboo to an open discussion, it would be the playing of Mucha against Chelsea and the scandalously easy surrender of the Carling Cup.
I really don't think it is a minority viewpoint any longer. Genuinely don't, bud. I think the fans are split quite evenly at present. 40% are committed Moyes-outers. 40% can see no wrong. 20% ? for whatever reason ? are wavering. Whatever happens in the next five days will dictate whether the Moyes-outers become a majority for the first time in his reign. I'm convinced of that. Having said all that, all this is just my straw-hunch that the fans are split along those lines. I could be wrong.
What I do know for a fact, though, is this: this time last year, even perhaps as late as Christmas, it was near enough taboo to even talk in certain quarters about having grown tired of Moyes (at best you'd be considered an irreconcilable crank). Many fans were still genuinely shocked to discover that there were fellow Evertonians who wanted Moyes gone. They're not now. Even the most die-hard Moyes loyalist knows that at least there's a debate to be had now.
That's quite a change in this season alone; and if I had to point to one pivotal early season moment that changed the debate from being taboo to an open discussion, it would be the playing of Mucha against Chelsea and the scandalously easy surrender of the Carling Cup.
Tony J Williams
64 Posted 23/03/2012 at 13:58:56
64 Posted 23/03/2012 at 13:58:56
Dan, probably because there is no-one else to pick.
Kevin Jones
65 Posted 23/03/2012 at 12:38:20
65 Posted 23/03/2012 at 12:38:20
Getting back to the original post, I sympathise 100% with what Tony has said. Somebody put on another thread, that Everton have been in the top flight for 60 years, yet some people seem to think Moyes has worked wonders to keep us up, I personally thinks that's total bollocks. We've had a lot better than Moyes and a lot worse than Moyes and managed to stay up. Some people are terrified that if we lose Moyes we'll plummet to the bottom of the Conference, once again absolute bollocks.
What Tony's saying is the football we play is fecking awful and he's 100% right. I'm 48 now and have had my season ticket since I was 12-13ish, as far as i remember without a break, so I've seen the good the bad and the ugly at Everton. In my opinion with the players we have, given the right tactics and the right style of play would win a lot more games than we lose. Moyes has turned into a defeatist who's more than happy just to tread water and stay in the EPL. Well believe it or not most Evertonians are realists and understand we're not going to win the league, and we'd need a lot of kind draw's to win a cup. But for fuck's sake give us something to at least enjoy. Lets take the last 4 seasons I've been to every match at Goodison League, FA Cup, League Cup and Europe, which must be approx 100 games. I'll say out of those games I've actually enjoyed well less than 1/2.
Moyes's dour face and body language along with his defeatist attitude is bringing us all down to his miserable level. The knife into a gunfight and don't expect miracles etc are bad enough, but last Tuesdays debacle was the final straw for me and lot of others. Total fucking shite from a coward no other words for it, he should have been sacked on the Wednesday morning. Over 40 odd away games to Liverpool, Man U Arsenal and Chelsea and 1 Cup win on Penalties just sums the fucker up. And before anyone says no team has a good record against these clubs, just find me one team, who have been in the EPL for the last 10 years, and have not won a single away game against those four. I'll never ever forgive him for last Tuesday even if we do somehow manage to beat Sunderland, Liverpool then Spurs or Chelsea, to lift the cup, however I won't be holding my breath.
Moyes Out
Just a side Issue Dan Swansea have played in the top flight before when Toshack was their manager.
What Tony's saying is the football we play is fecking awful and he's 100% right. I'm 48 now and have had my season ticket since I was 12-13ish, as far as i remember without a break, so I've seen the good the bad and the ugly at Everton. In my opinion with the players we have, given the right tactics and the right style of play would win a lot more games than we lose. Moyes has turned into a defeatist who's more than happy just to tread water and stay in the EPL. Well believe it or not most Evertonians are realists and understand we're not going to win the league, and we'd need a lot of kind draw's to win a cup. But for fuck's sake give us something to at least enjoy. Lets take the last 4 seasons I've been to every match at Goodison League, FA Cup, League Cup and Europe, which must be approx 100 games. I'll say out of those games I've actually enjoyed well less than 1/2.
Moyes's dour face and body language along with his defeatist attitude is bringing us all down to his miserable level. The knife into a gunfight and don't expect miracles etc are bad enough, but last Tuesdays debacle was the final straw for me and lot of others. Total fucking shite from a coward no other words for it, he should have been sacked on the Wednesday morning. Over 40 odd away games to Liverpool, Man U Arsenal and Chelsea and 1 Cup win on Penalties just sums the fucker up. And before anyone says no team has a good record against these clubs, just find me one team, who have been in the EPL for the last 10 years, and have not won a single away game against those four. I'll never ever forgive him for last Tuesday even if we do somehow manage to beat Sunderland, Liverpool then Spurs or Chelsea, to lift the cup, however I won't be holding my breath.
Moyes Out
Just a side Issue Dan Swansea have played in the top flight before when Toshack was their manager.
Kevin Tully
66 Posted 23/03/2012 at 14:10:22
66 Posted 23/03/2012 at 14:10:22
Moyes pissed on his chips after THAT derby last week.
A lot of his supporters have told me that was the final straw with the man.
The single worst decision since he has made in 10 years. A title-winning player with the club said it was the worst team selection any manager has made here, and his time is up.
Thank you Mr Moyes and good-bye.
A lot of his supporters have told me that was the final straw with the man.
The single worst decision since he has made in 10 years. A title-winning player with the club said it was the worst team selection any manager has made here, and his time is up.
Thank you Mr Moyes and good-bye.
Paul Ellam
67 Posted 23/03/2012 at 14:17:19
67 Posted 23/03/2012 at 14:17:19
Only 7 clubs have been in the Premier League from the beginning and still remain ? we are one of them. I know the football isn't pretty and most fans seem to be unhappy about one thing or another but I don't think that is a bad record personally.
There are a lot of teams who have come up, done the all-out attacking thing and been quite exciting to watch... but most, if not all, soon end up relegated. I like Swansea and Norwich for how they play but I feel they will be found out, just as teams like Blackpool, Reading and Ipswich were.
In conclusion, we aren't very good but we are a hell of a lot better than most!
There are a lot of teams who have come up, done the all-out attacking thing and been quite exciting to watch... but most, if not all, soon end up relegated. I like Swansea and Norwich for how they play but I feel they will be found out, just as teams like Blackpool, Reading and Ipswich were.
In conclusion, we aren't very good but we are a hell of a lot better than most!
Phil Walling
68 Posted 23/03/2012 at 14:39:36
68 Posted 23/03/2012 at 14:39:36
However much we whinge and moan on here, the reality is almost certainly Moyes being signed up for another three years by his best mate, BK. He`ll probably make a big show of taking a 20% pay cut but will still be one of the Prem`s top earners. And that`s just for saving Kenwright`s arse by `keeping us safe from relegation`!
Not that it will worry either of them but I have already made my decision and torn up my ST renewal papers. I have also given notice to cancel my Sky subscription from 30 April so the club I have loved since a toddler will get nothing more from me.
Until, that is, we have a new Board AND Manager!
Not that it will worry either of them but I have already made my decision and torn up my ST renewal papers. I have also given notice to cancel my Sky subscription from 30 April so the club I have loved since a toddler will get nothing more from me.
Until, that is, we have a new Board AND Manager!
Dan McKie
69 Posted 23/03/2012 at 14:50:01
69 Posted 23/03/2012 at 14:50:01
Tony, there are plenty of players he could have picked, but never does. I can't think of any other team where Tim Cahill could go 13 months without a goal, yet his place never be in jeopardy, especially since, when you take goals from his game, you get nothing else. How many of us were crying out for Bily to get a chance in that role? Barkley? Drenthe?
Same goes for the times Osman goes missing. Where are Lundstram, Hope etc? We hear every now and again how good these lads are going to be, but are never near the team, they are all 18 or 19 years old now. Before anyone says "These ain't our saviours" you may be right... but you may be dead wrong. Why haven't we seen them in Carling Cup games? Man U always have 4 or 5 guys that nobody has ever heard of in those games, but we have the same names as always, then moan come the end of the season that they are tired.
Same goes for the times Osman goes missing. Where are Lundstram, Hope etc? We hear every now and again how good these lads are going to be, but are never near the team, they are all 18 or 19 years old now. Before anyone says "These ain't our saviours" you may be right... but you may be dead wrong. Why haven't we seen them in Carling Cup games? Man U always have 4 or 5 guys that nobody has ever heard of in those games, but we have the same names as always, then moan come the end of the season that they are tired.
Tony J Williams
70 Posted 23/03/2012 at 14:33:29
70 Posted 23/03/2012 at 14:33:29
Paul, we keep on hearing how good Swansea are, yet they are without a doubt the worst team to play at Goodison this year (close to QPR, who won with their one shot one goal situation).
Wayne Smyth
71 Posted 23/03/2012 at 14:55:09
71 Posted 23/03/2012 at 14:55:09
Paul, as others have said, Moyes isn't doing something magical by keeping us in the Premier League. When was the last time we were relegated?? Thought so...
Those other teams you mention as doing the "attacking thing" haven't had a £60M wage bill to work with and I dont think any of them have had the stability, control and lack of pressure Moyes gets to work under.
But, like Phil says, Moyes will get signed up again because he has a nice status quo with Kenwright in not demanding anything from Kenwright and having Kenwright give him complete and utter job security with absolutely no requirement to win games or entertain. That is a cancerous combination of ingredients if you ask me.
Also, with regard to who'll replace him, I don't seem to remember people clamouring for Moyes before he arrived. He was a relative unknown and unproven manager who did well in his first few years. There are plenty of those around, and plenty more with Premier League experience who perhaps might achieve more at a bigger club with a bigger budget.
Those other teams you mention as doing the "attacking thing" haven't had a £60M wage bill to work with and I dont think any of them have had the stability, control and lack of pressure Moyes gets to work under.
But, like Phil says, Moyes will get signed up again because he has a nice status quo with Kenwright in not demanding anything from Kenwright and having Kenwright give him complete and utter job security with absolutely no requirement to win games or entertain. That is a cancerous combination of ingredients if you ask me.
Also, with regard to who'll replace him, I don't seem to remember people clamouring for Moyes before he arrived. He was a relative unknown and unproven manager who did well in his first few years. There are plenty of those around, and plenty more with Premier League experience who perhaps might achieve more at a bigger club with a bigger budget.
Andy Crooks
72 Posted 23/03/2012 at 15:03:55
72 Posted 23/03/2012 at 15:03:55
Dave Wilson, there is quite a lot of truth in what you say. The EPL is certainly not for the neutral connossieur. Having said that, though, I have on occasion seen some really good stuff under David Moyes.
I think success and confidence increases the ability and desire to play good football, which is why I think the team selection against Liverpool was such a serious and perhaps costly error.
I think success and confidence increases the ability and desire to play good football, which is why I think the team selection against Liverpool was such a serious and perhaps costly error.
Norman Merrill
73 Posted 23/03/2012 at 14:52:15
73 Posted 23/03/2012 at 14:52:15
Well, we only have to wait till Wednesday morning, and after the games at Swansea & Sunderland have been played, and we will know if our season is over or not?
Henry Weindling
74 Posted 23/03/2012 at 15:50:42
74 Posted 23/03/2012 at 15:50:42
I?ve defended David Moyes on this site before, and having read a lot of the above, feel the need to do so again.
I agree that sometimes his tactics and team selections can be frustrating (and the Liverpool game was utterly shocking); however, we should judge him on his results and past league finishes. Everton are a club that have massively punched above their weight over the past seasons and the sole reason for this is David Moyes. With the size of our squad, and the money constraints of the last few years, it?s amazing that we?re still a top half club. A lot of other clubs (Leeds, Middlesbrough, West Ham to name a few) have been relegated with far greater resources than Everton.
A lot of people seem to forget very quickly that this is the man who delivered a 4th place finish, an FA Cup Final, and a couple of very good European adventures. I didn?t hear anyone complaining about his style of management back then.
In support of Moyes, I would like to pose the following questions:
? What do you suggest is the alternative?
? Who could we get in place of Moyes?
? How would that person do a better job with zero money to buy anyone?
Brendan Rogers or Paul Lambert would be the obvious and realistic options to replace Moyes; however, even they are relatively unproven. As previous posts have mentioned, I would be surprised to see these clubs in the Premier League in a few seasons time.
With regards to Moyes's record in the transfer market, some of his signings have not been great. Bily was a poor signing. And as highly as I rate Felliani, the amount of money we paid was huge by Everton's standards. He still has a lot to prove.
However, again in Moyes's defence, he has made some unbelievable signings which speak for themselves: Howard, Jagielka, Lescott, Cahill, Arteta, Pienaar, Donovan. Even Saha was a very shrewd bit of business at the time and Heitinga is now proving to be world class.
The worry for Evertonians should be not How can we replace Moyes, but whether Moyes himself starts to wonder if it?s all worth it.
I agree that sometimes his tactics and team selections can be frustrating (and the Liverpool game was utterly shocking); however, we should judge him on his results and past league finishes. Everton are a club that have massively punched above their weight over the past seasons and the sole reason for this is David Moyes. With the size of our squad, and the money constraints of the last few years, it?s amazing that we?re still a top half club. A lot of other clubs (Leeds, Middlesbrough, West Ham to name a few) have been relegated with far greater resources than Everton.
A lot of people seem to forget very quickly that this is the man who delivered a 4th place finish, an FA Cup Final, and a couple of very good European adventures. I didn?t hear anyone complaining about his style of management back then.
In support of Moyes, I would like to pose the following questions:
? What do you suggest is the alternative?
? Who could we get in place of Moyes?
? How would that person do a better job with zero money to buy anyone?
Brendan Rogers or Paul Lambert would be the obvious and realistic options to replace Moyes; however, even they are relatively unproven. As previous posts have mentioned, I would be surprised to see these clubs in the Premier League in a few seasons time.
With regards to Moyes's record in the transfer market, some of his signings have not been great. Bily was a poor signing. And as highly as I rate Felliani, the amount of money we paid was huge by Everton's standards. He still has a lot to prove.
However, again in Moyes's defence, he has made some unbelievable signings which speak for themselves: Howard, Jagielka, Lescott, Cahill, Arteta, Pienaar, Donovan. Even Saha was a very shrewd bit of business at the time and Heitinga is now proving to be world class.
The worry for Evertonians should be not How can we replace Moyes, but whether Moyes himself starts to wonder if it?s all worth it.
Andrew Dempsey
75 Posted 23/03/2012 at 14:29:25
75 Posted 23/03/2012 at 14:29:25
Dave 961
It sounds like you've completely given up on life there, Dave. Football has changed, but it's not all doom and gloom. Everything goes in cycles.
Football started off very (1850s-ish) open and unprofessional and full of goals and excitement. But it became very athletic and tactical and boring (to people at the time) just after the turn of the century, up until they changed the offside law in 1925 (making it just 2 (instead of 3, including the goalkeeper) defenders between the receiver of the pass and the goal line, in order to be offside) which freed up more space in behind defences, changed the whole tactical approach, and gave us the modern game as we knew it in the 20th century, full of goals, imagination and flair.
I believe football can become exciting and full of fantasy again with a simple tweaking of the offside law, following the natural progression (cycle) of 1925 and changing it from 2 defenders to 1 needed to be played onside. Effectively, this one defender is the goalkeeper and so now there is space everywhere but you can stlll be offside if you move ahead of the keeper (or whoever the last man is) when the ball is played to you.
This new law would essentially see offside become a very small part of the game, but would discourage goal hanging because you could still be offside if you were ahead of the keeper.
The pace and athleticism of the modern game means this very sensible rule change must and I predict WILL happen. Everything goes in cycles. I'm looking forward to a new century of open, free and exhilarating football.
ps: the Premier League has the highest goal count since 1967-68 this season. The games amongst the top 5 have been mainly excellent, while I take your point about the rest and our expectations about entertainment being unreasonable.
However, I believe we need a new attacking philosophy at Everton. This talk of our players being not good enough is just sour, negative horseshit, masquerading as football nous. It's nonsense! Players can be coached, they can improve, they can have a positive philosophy instilled into them.
We have the players to attack and go forward, everyone that truly knows anything about football can see this. We have to go forward or we will be left behind in this new attacking century (which I've clearly imagined)... but hey, excuse me for thinking positively, for dreaming of a better future, for believing that Everton could be great again. We have to imagine, we have to dream, it's how all great things begin. Come on Everton!!
It sounds like you've completely given up on life there, Dave. Football has changed, but it's not all doom and gloom. Everything goes in cycles.
Football started off very (1850s-ish) open and unprofessional and full of goals and excitement. But it became very athletic and tactical and boring (to people at the time) just after the turn of the century, up until they changed the offside law in 1925 (making it just 2 (instead of 3, including the goalkeeper) defenders between the receiver of the pass and the goal line, in order to be offside) which freed up more space in behind defences, changed the whole tactical approach, and gave us the modern game as we knew it in the 20th century, full of goals, imagination and flair.
I believe football can become exciting and full of fantasy again with a simple tweaking of the offside law, following the natural progression (cycle) of 1925 and changing it from 2 defenders to 1 needed to be played onside. Effectively, this one defender is the goalkeeper and so now there is space everywhere but you can stlll be offside if you move ahead of the keeper (or whoever the last man is) when the ball is played to you.
This new law would essentially see offside become a very small part of the game, but would discourage goal hanging because you could still be offside if you were ahead of the keeper.
The pace and athleticism of the modern game means this very sensible rule change must and I predict WILL happen. Everything goes in cycles. I'm looking forward to a new century of open, free and exhilarating football.
ps: the Premier League has the highest goal count since 1967-68 this season. The games amongst the top 5 have been mainly excellent, while I take your point about the rest and our expectations about entertainment being unreasonable.
However, I believe we need a new attacking philosophy at Everton. This talk of our players being not good enough is just sour, negative horseshit, masquerading as football nous. It's nonsense! Players can be coached, they can improve, they can have a positive philosophy instilled into them.
We have the players to attack and go forward, everyone that truly knows anything about football can see this. We have to go forward or we will be left behind in this new attacking century (which I've clearly imagined)... but hey, excuse me for thinking positively, for dreaming of a better future, for believing that Everton could be great again. We have to imagine, we have to dream, it's how all great things begin. Come on Everton!!
Dan McKie
76 Posted 23/03/2012 at 15:52:59
76 Posted 23/03/2012 at 15:52:59
Henry, if you think that Rodgers and Lambert are 'relatively' unproven, then what did that make Moyes when we brought him in? Rodgers and Lambert managed to get their teams promoted to the Premier League, as did Holloway, but Moyes didn't!
So who's to say one of those guys wouldn't bring back European nights to Goodison, like Moyes did? A cup final, like Moyes did?
My question to you is: Can you see Moyes picking himself back up and doing it again? If no, then he needs to walk himself. He has had money to spend, a decent wage budget to work with, and is sat on a very nice contract to pick those players up, motivate them and send them out with only winning on their minds.
So who's to say one of those guys wouldn't bring back European nights to Goodison, like Moyes did? A cup final, like Moyes did?
My question to you is: Can you see Moyes picking himself back up and doing it again? If no, then he needs to walk himself. He has had money to spend, a decent wage budget to work with, and is sat on a very nice contract to pick those players up, motivate them and send them out with only winning on their minds.
Steve Sweeney
77 Posted 23/03/2012 at 14:44:25
77 Posted 23/03/2012 at 14:44:25
The truth of the matter is that Moyes is a very defensive-minded coach who lacks belief. Now whether that has always been the case or if it has come about because of the cancer within the club I don't know. However, whenever we have a full squad with no injury or selection doubts, Moyes fucks up.
That is why we have such poor starts, he cannot make up his mind he thinks too much. He had no natural ability as a player; he works hard but he just appears to have no motivational characteristics.
He has a squad that is ? in his words ? one of the best he has had. They are all his PLAYERS... Davey, just let them play.
Have some belief, FFS.
That is why we have such poor starts, he cannot make up his mind he thinks too much. He had no natural ability as a player; he works hard but he just appears to have no motivational characteristics.
He has a squad that is ? in his words ? one of the best he has had. They are all his PLAYERS... Davey, just let them play.
Have some belief, FFS.
Henry Weindling
78 Posted 23/03/2012 at 16:00:03
78 Posted 23/03/2012 at 16:00:03
Dan, it's a fair point. Yes everyone asked that very question when Moyes took over. It would no doubt be the same with Rogers/Lambert.
I think based on what Moyes has achieved at Everton in his 10 years (and although no silverware to show, he has achieved a massive amount), we would be foolish to get rid of him. If we walks or takes the Chelsea/Spurs job, then that?s another matter of course.
Football clubs need stability, and football clubs like Everton definitely need stability. Look at clubs like Newcastle, Leeds, Chelsea, West Ham and QPR who all continue to chop and change managers, I personally would not want Everton to fit into that bracket.
Football is very cyclical. If we take Arsenal for example, they had the glory days with Henry, Pires, Vieira etc all at their peak. Now they are backing Wenger and giving him the time to bring back those glory days.
Moyes?s equivalent was when Cahill, Pienaar, Arteta, Lescott etc were all at their peak, and we achieved an awful lot by Everton?s standards. Those players are now past their best or have moved on, but I believe Moyes deserves the chance to be able to build up a similar squad and try to achieve even more.
I think based on what Moyes has achieved at Everton in his 10 years (and although no silverware to show, he has achieved a massive amount), we would be foolish to get rid of him. If we walks or takes the Chelsea/Spurs job, then that?s another matter of course.
Football clubs need stability, and football clubs like Everton definitely need stability. Look at clubs like Newcastle, Leeds, Chelsea, West Ham and QPR who all continue to chop and change managers, I personally would not want Everton to fit into that bracket.
Football is very cyclical. If we take Arsenal for example, they had the glory days with Henry, Pires, Vieira etc all at their peak. Now they are backing Wenger and giving him the time to bring back those glory days.
Moyes?s equivalent was when Cahill, Pienaar, Arteta, Lescott etc were all at their peak, and we achieved an awful lot by Everton?s standards. Those players are now past their best or have moved on, but I believe Moyes deserves the chance to be able to build up a similar squad and try to achieve even more.
Tony J Williams
79 Posted 23/03/2012 at 15:53:43
79 Posted 23/03/2012 at 15:53:43
"I don't seem to remember people clamouring for Moyes before he arrived" ? Because we were a team staring relegation in the face and the idea of a European Cup adventure was foreign to us... it's not anymore, so we would rightly expect a better calibre of manager to come to us... on shitty pay of course.
Dan McKie
80 Posted 23/03/2012 at 16:15:27
80 Posted 23/03/2012 at 16:15:27
Henry, he isn't showing any willingness to do it though, that's my point. He isnt trying to rebuild, he is playing the same players week-in, week-out, the ones who are past it. As a result, we get boring predictable football.
Wenger has thrown Oxlade-Chamberlain in this season, not every game, but a damned site more than Barkley or any of the other Everton youngsters have got. Moyes made a massive mistake last week, so hid away until after the next Premier League game where he is contractually obliged to speak to the media. He will never get a Spurs or Chelsea job, that's just media build-up.
Moyes says all the time that he just gets on with it, but he doesn't; he sulks all the time about no money and uses it as an excuse constantly, and the media buy it! If he wants to rebuild then he needs to say goodbye to the ageing big earners we may still be able to offload for cash, and rebuild with it. Jags and Cahill should have gone two seasons ago, when money was offered that we could have used for a few younger players.
Wenger has thrown Oxlade-Chamberlain in this season, not every game, but a damned site more than Barkley or any of the other Everton youngsters have got. Moyes made a massive mistake last week, so hid away until after the next Premier League game where he is contractually obliged to speak to the media. He will never get a Spurs or Chelsea job, that's just media build-up.
Moyes says all the time that he just gets on with it, but he doesn't; he sulks all the time about no money and uses it as an excuse constantly, and the media buy it! If he wants to rebuild then he needs to say goodbye to the ageing big earners we may still be able to offload for cash, and rebuild with it. Jags and Cahill should have gone two seasons ago, when money was offered that we could have used for a few younger players.
Stephen Kenny
81 Posted 23/03/2012 at 16:12:10
81 Posted 23/03/2012 at 16:12:10
Me and my mate were watching Stoke play the R/S the other week and we were both having a laugh at how dire their style of play was.
I've been to Stoke a few times since they come up, they love it.
Why? Because it's took them places they hadn't been for a long, long time.
The same is probably true of us to a much lesser extent. We hadn't really done anything in the league for the best part of 15 years before Moyes came and we hadn't been to Europe bar one game against Feyenoord??? for about 20 years. That's why Moyes has so much support but, in real terms, he hasn't done much more than Pulis has done for Stoke. Though we have nearly always played a slightly better style than them.
I think the Stoke fans will eventually lose patience with their rugby style football, just as most Evertonians have lost patience with our industrial "effort over ability" style. As Dave Wilson says, we watch to see them do things we can't. Where I disagree is that there are still plenty who fall into that category. They just need to be given the chance to show it.
IMO for the past few years Moyes has had the players change the style and his caution has stopped him. He still talks about getting to 40 points at the start of every season. Why?
We're an established side in this league and have been for all bar a few seasons in the life of English Football. If our three best players get injured for a full season, we still wouldn't go down. Yet it always talked about. It shows how deeply ingrained the 90s are in the collective Everton physche.
I've been to Stoke a few times since they come up, they love it.
Why? Because it's took them places they hadn't been for a long, long time.
The same is probably true of us to a much lesser extent. We hadn't really done anything in the league for the best part of 15 years before Moyes came and we hadn't been to Europe bar one game against Feyenoord??? for about 20 years. That's why Moyes has so much support but, in real terms, he hasn't done much more than Pulis has done for Stoke. Though we have nearly always played a slightly better style than them.
I think the Stoke fans will eventually lose patience with their rugby style football, just as most Evertonians have lost patience with our industrial "effort over ability" style. As Dave Wilson says, we watch to see them do things we can't. Where I disagree is that there are still plenty who fall into that category. They just need to be given the chance to show it.
IMO for the past few years Moyes has had the players change the style and his caution has stopped him. He still talks about getting to 40 points at the start of every season. Why?
We're an established side in this league and have been for all bar a few seasons in the life of English Football. If our three best players get injured for a full season, we still wouldn't go down. Yet it always talked about. It shows how deeply ingrained the 90s are in the collective Everton physche.
Ciarán McGlone
82 Posted 23/03/2012 at 16:38:29
82 Posted 23/03/2012 at 16:38:29
"I didn't hear anyone complaining about his style of management back then."
------------------
You obviously weren't listening.
------------------
You obviously weren't listening.
Henry Weindling
83 Posted 23/03/2012 at 16:32:06
83 Posted 23/03/2012 at 16:32:06
There is a lot of hype around Barkley, however, first of all, he is still very, very young. Secondly, from what I have seen, there is no indication he should be playing first team football week-in, week-out. I agree, now the League season is drawing to a close, he should get more game time. Let's hope he does and we can then start to judge both him, and Moyes's handling of him.
Agreed that Cahill now either needs to move on, or be deployed in a more holding role. However, Jagielka is a key squad member for future seasons. To sell him, as one of our best players, would be a very poor decision and be further indication to top clubs that our prized assets are there to be cherry-picked.
There's nothing to indicate Moyes isn't trying to rebuild. He is doing what he can on limited resources. Although young, Oxlade-Chamberlain was signed for a lot of money and would walk into most if not all Premier League teams, this is not the case with Barkley.
Agreed that Cahill now either needs to move on, or be deployed in a more holding role. However, Jagielka is a key squad member for future seasons. To sell him, as one of our best players, would be a very poor decision and be further indication to top clubs that our prized assets are there to be cherry-picked.
There's nothing to indicate Moyes isn't trying to rebuild. He is doing what he can on limited resources. Although young, Oxlade-Chamberlain was signed for a lot of money and would walk into most if not all Premier League teams, this is not the case with Barkley.
Michael Brien
84 Posted 23/03/2012 at 16:32:37
84 Posted 23/03/2012 at 16:32:37
Martin Mason, you rubbish some of our players. But as has been pointed out:
Sheedy ? a Liverpool reserve player
Harper ? also a Liverpool reserve player
Reid & Gray ? a couple of crocks, as certain people at the time called them....
Yet they formed part of a squad that won trophies.
Just because a player doesn't make it at Man United, Arsenal etc. it doesn't mean that they are a poor player. If you wanted to take that particular argument, you could dismiss Arteta as being a Barcelona reject.
And as regards the likes of Vellios and Stracq ? well, I hardly think they have been given much opportunity to show what they can do.
I regard Moyes as almost as frustrating a manager as Gordon Lee.
Sheedy ? a Liverpool reserve player
Harper ? also a Liverpool reserve player
Reid & Gray ? a couple of crocks, as certain people at the time called them....
Yet they formed part of a squad that won trophies.
Just because a player doesn't make it at Man United, Arsenal etc. it doesn't mean that they are a poor player. If you wanted to take that particular argument, you could dismiss Arteta as being a Barcelona reject.
And as regards the likes of Vellios and Stracq ? well, I hardly think they have been given much opportunity to show what they can do.
I regard Moyes as almost as frustrating a manager as Gordon Lee.
Ciarán McGlone
85 Posted 23/03/2012 at 16:47:09
85 Posted 23/03/2012 at 16:47:09
No indication that Barkley should be playing first team football?
Cahill in a holding role?
Don't sell Jagielka as he's one of our best players?
Give me strength.
Cahill in a holding role?
Don't sell Jagielka as he's one of our best players?
Give me strength.
Dan McKie
86 Posted 23/03/2012 at 16:46:51
86 Posted 23/03/2012 at 16:46:51
Henry,
Oxalade-Chamberlain had never played higher than League One, and the money Arsenal paid was and still is, a huge gamble. Look at Walcott: many would say he is the same player that arrived at Arsenal 5 years ago.
What I mean by selling is, with our finances the way they are, we can't keep letting players see out their careers here and eventually get nothing for them. We could have got £15 million for Jags, but now we wouldn't get half that, and on top he has a much bigger contract which will take him well into his 30s.
What we did with Lescott was correct, we sold for big money and got 3 players in. Nobody likes seeing our big names leave, but you have to make sacrifices for the future. What we don't want is for those sacrifices to be the likes of Barkley, Fellaini, Rodwell, all late teens, early 20s that we can build a team around.
Anyone who is late 20s and still has decent transfer value should be moved on. They aint going to get any younger. What happens if we get no new money and Neville, Distin, Cahill all retire? What do we get their replacements with. A good manager knows when to move players on... David Moyes doesn't!
Oxalade-Chamberlain had never played higher than League One, and the money Arsenal paid was and still is, a huge gamble. Look at Walcott: many would say he is the same player that arrived at Arsenal 5 years ago.
What I mean by selling is, with our finances the way they are, we can't keep letting players see out their careers here and eventually get nothing for them. We could have got £15 million for Jags, but now we wouldn't get half that, and on top he has a much bigger contract which will take him well into his 30s.
What we did with Lescott was correct, we sold for big money and got 3 players in. Nobody likes seeing our big names leave, but you have to make sacrifices for the future. What we don't want is for those sacrifices to be the likes of Barkley, Fellaini, Rodwell, all late teens, early 20s that we can build a team around.
Anyone who is late 20s and still has decent transfer value should be moved on. They aint going to get any younger. What happens if we get no new money and Neville, Distin, Cahill all retire? What do we get their replacements with. A good manager knows when to move players on... David Moyes doesn't!
Henry Weindling
87 Posted 23/03/2012 at 17:05:17
87 Posted 23/03/2012 at 17:05:17
Dan, selling Lescott was the right decision, but only because Man City made a stupid bid (which we rightly accepted) and he wanted to leave. We would not get £15m for Jagielka, more realistically £8-10m max. Look at the money Gary Cahill (who in my opinion is a better player than Jags) was sold for. It hardly gives Bolton the ability to rebuild their whole squad.
David Moyes cannot win, if he keeps big players at the club against their will, they will not perform for us. If he sells big players, he is seen as either having his hand forced by the board or lacking in ambition.
David Moyes cannot win, if he keeps big players at the club against their will, they will not perform for us. If he sells big players, he is seen as either having his hand forced by the board or lacking in ambition.
Richard Reeves
88 Posted 23/03/2012 at 16:56:05
88 Posted 23/03/2012 at 16:56:05
Tony Marsh, I notice you get a bit of stick for your comments for being honest and speaking the truth.
I agree with everything in this article and generally most things you say. Unfortunately there are deluded and narrow-minded people in every fan base; I was just shocked to see so many of them supporting Everton.
If I was to sum it up in a nutshell: I've lost all hope.
MOYES OUT!
I agree with everything in this article and generally most things you say. Unfortunately there are deluded and narrow-minded people in every fan base; I was just shocked to see so many of them supporting Everton.
If I was to sum it up in a nutshell: I've lost all hope.
MOYES OUT!
Richard Reeves
89 Posted 23/03/2012 at 17:20:45
89 Posted 23/03/2012 at 17:20:45
Henry Weindling, you say David Moyes cannot win... ha ha, you've got that right.
Ged Dwyer
90 Posted 23/03/2012 at 17:25:13
90 Posted 23/03/2012 at 17:25:13
Tony
I was wrong; Moyes is not a bad manager... he is a horrendous manager. And it's only because of all the ridiculous things that have gone before that it probably hasn't sunk in to us just how bad last Tuesday night was.
I will keep supporting the players and team but Moyes deserves nothing. He is a disgrace to the name of Everton Football Club and is not fit to be in charge.
He had the cheek to blame a linesman for the Arsenal defeat, one week after his atrocious behaviour. He hasn't even apologised to the supporters. He has no credibility at all. None.
I was wrong; Moyes is not a bad manager... he is a horrendous manager. And it's only because of all the ridiculous things that have gone before that it probably hasn't sunk in to us just how bad last Tuesday night was.
I will keep supporting the players and team but Moyes deserves nothing. He is a disgrace to the name of Everton Football Club and is not fit to be in charge.
He had the cheek to blame a linesman for the Arsenal defeat, one week after his atrocious behaviour. He hasn't even apologised to the supporters. He has no credibility at all. None.
Steve Harris
91 Posted 23/03/2012 at 16:41:31
91 Posted 23/03/2012 at 16:41:31
Nick, Are you shagging Moyes? I ask the question because that must be the only reason why you keep defending him week after week.
How anyone can actually enjoy watching the dross we serve up under that clueless twat is beyond me.
The worst part of going to the game now is that you know exactly how the match is going to go before it starts.
How anyone can actually enjoy watching the dross we serve up under that clueless twat is beyond me.
The worst part of going to the game now is that you know exactly how the match is going to go before it starts.
Gavin Ramejkis
92 Posted 23/03/2012 at 17:37:26
92 Posted 23/03/2012 at 17:37:26
There are dwindling excuses for the mistakes Moyes makes, we have a reasonable team of players so that argument is fatally flawed; Howard and Neville and Gibson not good enough for Man U but good enough for us, well you could name the majority of the EPL holders Man U as not being good enough for Barcelona and see the nonsense involved - you can only play what you have.
Back to the lack of tactics, those that don't evolve eventually become extinct, other managers with far lesser teams on paper achieve results as they change their gameplan on a per game basis, look at the stats for Swansea at home this season and watch some of the highlights of their gameplay, better still look at the pass completion rate of Leon Brittan which is even better than Xavi's.
As far as the lets see where Lambert and Rodgers are next season or how they perform after ten years well that too is a ridiculous argument as the situation at Everton is unique; there's no way a manager elsewhere would retain his job for ten years by winning fuck all, Moyes' job is to keep the club in the league.
Back to the lack of tactics, those that don't evolve eventually become extinct, other managers with far lesser teams on paper achieve results as they change their gameplan on a per game basis, look at the stats for Swansea at home this season and watch some of the highlights of their gameplay, better still look at the pass completion rate of Leon Brittan which is even better than Xavi's.
As far as the lets see where Lambert and Rodgers are next season or how they perform after ten years well that too is a ridiculous argument as the situation at Everton is unique; there's no way a manager elsewhere would retain his job for ten years by winning fuck all, Moyes' job is to keep the club in the league.
Jon Beck
93 Posted 23/03/2012 at 18:52:34
93 Posted 23/03/2012 at 18:52:34
Tony Marsh as sports psychologist, well I never. How dare Moyes make a mistake and surrender to the Redshite. They are our cup final after all. Clearly our players will never recover from the humiliation and nor, it would seem, will the fans. So bin him, he's shite, bring in the latest flavour of the month, Martinez, Coyle, Holloway.........oh no, that was last year, sorry I meant Rodgers, Lambert, Di Canio or whoever. It's not about the money after all, it's about the coaching.
Thank God I have Toffeeweb to remind me all the top half finishes, European Football and Cup Finals in the last few years meant nothing even when I felt I was enjoying watching Everton and the football being played.
Moyes may not be perfect, he may make mistakes, he may sometimes produce dull football, it may even be time for him to go. All I know he is deserves far more respect than he gets from some, even when he is being justifiably criticized.
Thank God I have Toffeeweb to remind me all the top half finishes, European Football and Cup Finals in the last few years meant nothing even when I felt I was enjoying watching Everton and the football being played.
Moyes may not be perfect, he may make mistakes, he may sometimes produce dull football, it may even be time for him to go. All I know he is deserves far more respect than he gets from some, even when he is being justifiably criticized.
Wayne Smyth
94 Posted 23/03/2012 at 18:57:49
94 Posted 23/03/2012 at 18:57:49
Gavin, I can't imagine Kenwright sacking Moyes under any circumstances to be honest... even if we were relegated.
As far as I can tell, all Kenwright wants from Moyes is to keep him in power by not asking for funds, or criticising his ownership.
As far as I can tell, all Kenwright wants from Moyes is to keep him in power by not asking for funds, or criticising his ownership.
Barry Rathbone
95 Posted 23/03/2012 at 19:10:18
95 Posted 23/03/2012 at 19:10:18
"cup finals"......plural???
Reiterating criticism in a sarky manner doesn't make it any less valid and if the shite are our cup final it's only because your hero can't get us to more than one.
"finals" indeed.
Reiterating criticism in a sarky manner doesn't make it any less valid and if the shite are our cup final it's only because your hero can't get us to more than one.
"finals" indeed.
Andy Crooks
96 Posted 23/03/2012 at 19:44:06
96 Posted 23/03/2012 at 19:44:06
European football, cup finals, top ten finishes. Ten glorious years indeed. It might have been worse, it might have been better, who knows. In my view I'd rather take a chance with someone new (Glen Hoddle ,Dave) than have ten more years of the same.
Jimmy Sørheim
97 Posted 23/03/2012 at 19:39:14
97 Posted 23/03/2012 at 19:39:14
Liverpool fans want him to stay for 10 more years.
What does that tell you?
Moyes should just leave after this season is over, and I think there is a good chance he will!
What does that tell you?
Moyes should just leave after this season is over, and I think there is a good chance he will!
Dean Adams
98 Posted 23/03/2012 at 20:21:32
98 Posted 23/03/2012 at 20:21:32
Jimmy Sørheim
"Liverpool fans want him to stay for 10 more years."
Personally I don't care too much for Liverpool fans, but to me it just shows how stupid they are!! Regardless of our personal thoughts, dreams and aspirations, we would have been relegated if we continued as we were with Walter. Our dreams and aspirations would have long since evaporated and we would probably be in League One like many other Giants of Yesteryear.
"Liverpool fans want him to stay for 10 more years."
Personally I don't care too much for Liverpool fans, but to me it just shows how stupid they are!! Regardless of our personal thoughts, dreams and aspirations, we would have been relegated if we continued as we were with Walter. Our dreams and aspirations would have long since evaporated and we would probably be in League One like many other Giants of Yesteryear.
Dave Wilson
99 Posted 23/03/2012 at 20:03:52
99 Posted 23/03/2012 at 20:03:52
Andy
I would go with Glen Hoddle tomorrow.
My problem with the latest Brendan Mcfucken Mowbrey is they never ? that's NEVER ? last. They come up, gain a reputation for "entertaining" through playing "pleased to be here football" (certainly on here) and they are then relegated within two seasons with clubs whose fans have nowhere near the level of expectation of the Evertonians.
The only fella who has ever taken over a big club (skint big club) and managed to keep them competing for Europe is the guy you want to get rid of.
Seriously, I'm happy to be corrected here but has ANY of these "bright young attacking" coaches ever managed to keep their teams in the top flight AND kept his job? Can somebody name one? In the entire history of the Premier League?
Andrew #990
Given up? On the contrary, I will go to Swansea tomorrow and then head up to Sunderland on Tuesday.
I was trying to say I believe there is a very definite difference between sport / competition and entertainment; I accept it CAN, maybe even SHOULD be entertaining, but I don't believe entertainment is a priority amongst EPL managers (except maybe Wenger). Those days are long gone. Football is a results driven sport.
I sometimes struggle to understand how people can be so critical when judging the manager, yet so incredibly gushy when it comes to players. I`m staggered by the amount of people who think we have a really good squad of players. The rich six clubs would not touch most of our players with a shitty stick.
I would go with Glen Hoddle tomorrow.
My problem with the latest Brendan Mcfucken Mowbrey is they never ? that's NEVER ? last. They come up, gain a reputation for "entertaining" through playing "pleased to be here football" (certainly on here) and they are then relegated within two seasons with clubs whose fans have nowhere near the level of expectation of the Evertonians.
The only fella who has ever taken over a big club (skint big club) and managed to keep them competing for Europe is the guy you want to get rid of.
Seriously, I'm happy to be corrected here but has ANY of these "bright young attacking" coaches ever managed to keep their teams in the top flight AND kept his job? Can somebody name one? In the entire history of the Premier League?
Andrew #990
Given up? On the contrary, I will go to Swansea tomorrow and then head up to Sunderland on Tuesday.
I was trying to say I believe there is a very definite difference between sport / competition and entertainment; I accept it CAN, maybe even SHOULD be entertaining, but I don't believe entertainment is a priority amongst EPL managers (except maybe Wenger). Those days are long gone. Football is a results driven sport.
I sometimes struggle to understand how people can be so critical when judging the manager, yet so incredibly gushy when it comes to players. I`m staggered by the amount of people who think we have a really good squad of players. The rich six clubs would not touch most of our players with a shitty stick.
Nick Entwistle
100 Posted 23/03/2012 at 20:41:26
100 Posted 23/03/2012 at 20:41:26
Liverpool sang that as a piss take. I'm more confident of finishing above them next season then vice-verse... besides there's this season where we can do them one.
Roman Sidey
101 Posted 23/03/2012 at 21:03:32
101 Posted 23/03/2012 at 21:03:32
Martin, "Coming through we have Shane Duffy who is a journeyman central defender". Care to explain that one?
Greg Murphy, spot on about the taboo of Christmas 2010-ish time. After we beat Man City the first time last season, I was on another site where someone posted an article on how great Moyes was because we had overcome this giant of a club on their turf. My responding was about how, despite this great result, Moyes was finished, despite winning that game, it was awful to watch, and that this one result was only our 4th win of the season, which was unacceptable.
You should have seen the amount of abuse I got from that. Now, I'm willing to bet a lot of those people that jumped down my throat would probably agree with what I said.
Writing's on the wall, and if Moyes hadn't bottled the derby, next week's Cup game would just be another cup game. As it happens, now, it's Judgement Day. If we don't beat Sunderland, Moyes needs to walk. It's the only way he can retain what little shred of credit he has left.
Greg Murphy, spot on about the taboo of Christmas 2010-ish time. After we beat Man City the first time last season, I was on another site where someone posted an article on how great Moyes was because we had overcome this giant of a club on their turf. My responding was about how, despite this great result, Moyes was finished, despite winning that game, it was awful to watch, and that this one result was only our 4th win of the season, which was unacceptable.
You should have seen the amount of abuse I got from that. Now, I'm willing to bet a lot of those people that jumped down my throat would probably agree with what I said.
Writing's on the wall, and if Moyes hadn't bottled the derby, next week's Cup game would just be another cup game. As it happens, now, it's Judgement Day. If we don't beat Sunderland, Moyes needs to walk. It's the only way he can retain what little shred of credit he has left.
Martin Mason
102 Posted 24/03/2012 at 02:24:38
102 Posted 24/03/2012 at 02:24:38
Michael Brien,
I did point out that, reserve or not, Sheedy was well thought of at Liverpool and they wanted him to stay. Reid and Gray were both absolutely top class players and don?t forget Gray didn?t actually last very long. We have nothing remotely similar to any of the players you mention in the present team as far as I can see. That was also 30 years ago, the league was 2nd Division compared with the EPL.
Roman Sidey,
Duffy has had a couple of games and played OK, he's 4th in the pecking order. He isn't Rio Ferdinand.
Richard Reeves,
Absolutely correct, there are deluded and narrow-minded people in every fan base. They are always a minority and you are part of it as far as Evertonians go.
I did point out that, reserve or not, Sheedy was well thought of at Liverpool and they wanted him to stay. Reid and Gray were both absolutely top class players and don?t forget Gray didn?t actually last very long. We have nothing remotely similar to any of the players you mention in the present team as far as I can see. That was also 30 years ago, the league was 2nd Division compared with the EPL.
Roman Sidey,
Duffy has had a couple of games and played OK, he's 4th in the pecking order. He isn't Rio Ferdinand.
Richard Reeves,
Absolutely correct, there are deluded and narrow-minded people in every fan base. They are always a minority and you are part of it as far as Evertonians go.
Derek Thomas
103 Posted 24/03/2012 at 03:05:04
103 Posted 24/03/2012 at 03:05:04
Dave Wilson 961; cruelly insightful with your 'non match-goer ' paragraph.
All; The Attack minded flavour of the season, who would that have been in March 2002?? What would have happened if a 2002 Lambert came and had 10 years, a £60M wage bill and £30M to spend in the last 5 or so years.
That is the question and the answer is we will never know. We might find out soon... or not. But whenever Moyes leaves or is sacked, be it 3 months or 3 years, there is no forgone conclusion that it will all turn to custard.
Andrew Dempsey 990; That's the way to go. Stop all this dancing around the bleeding obvious we have been doing for the last 10 years or so with the Offside Rule. Scrap it completely. I think it may open the game up.
Roman 047; Spot on, Moyes should walk if we lose. But at best, or would that be worst, I feel we would get a statement from Bill (who should've walked himself over DK) saying he has refused to accept Moyes's resignation and has full confidence in him.
I of course hope we win our next 3 FA Cup games, but would not be surprised to see another draw, it feels like that sort of game, what odds can you get for 2-2?
I think we get extra-time... what's next? Another replay on a neutral ground, then pens? Or is it straight to pens after the 2nd draw?
All; The Attack minded flavour of the season, who would that have been in March 2002?? What would have happened if a 2002 Lambert came and had 10 years, a £60M wage bill and £30M to spend in the last 5 or so years.
That is the question and the answer is we will never know. We might find out soon... or not. But whenever Moyes leaves or is sacked, be it 3 months or 3 years, there is no forgone conclusion that it will all turn to custard.
Andrew Dempsey 990; That's the way to go. Stop all this dancing around the bleeding obvious we have been doing for the last 10 years or so with the Offside Rule. Scrap it completely. I think it may open the game up.
Roman 047; Spot on, Moyes should walk if we lose. But at best, or would that be worst, I feel we would get a statement from Bill (who should've walked himself over DK) saying he has refused to accept Moyes's resignation and has full confidence in him.
I of course hope we win our next 3 FA Cup games, but would not be surprised to see another draw, it feels like that sort of game, what odds can you get for 2-2?
I think we get extra-time... what's next? Another replay on a neutral ground, then pens? Or is it straight to pens after the 2nd draw?
Michael Kenrick
104 Posted 24/03/2012 at 04:39:49
104 Posted 24/03/2012 at 04:39:49
Extra time then pens, Derek. No second replay.
Martin Mason
106 Posted 24/03/2012 at 05:37:43
106 Posted 24/03/2012 at 05:37:43
David wilson@961
You are absolutely correct. United and city entertain now and again but the EPL is basically seige warfare and fear football. there is no such thing as entertainment especially between clubs who could conceivably be relegated.
You are absolutely correct. United and city entertain now and again but the EPL is basically seige warfare and fear football. there is no such thing as entertainment especially between clubs who could conceivably be relegated.
Andy Crooks
108 Posted 24/03/2012 at 08:39:45
108 Posted 24/03/2012 at 08:39:45
Martin Mason, you have talked a bit of sense on this thread but, with apologies to Mike Green, your staement about Duffy is nonsense. I see Duffy and Rodwell as our future centre back pairing.
Dan McKie
109 Posted 24/03/2012 at 10:12:36
109 Posted 24/03/2012 at 10:12:36
How long into the future though, Andy? Moyes played the likes of Weir and Stubbs until they could barely break into a slow jog. Distin has probably another decade in him under our manager.
Gavin Ramejkis
110 Posted 24/03/2012 at 10:33:36
110 Posted 24/03/2012 at 10:33:36
To be fair, Dan, Distin is the quickest centre-half we have; for a 34-year-old, he's no slouch and much quicker than Jags or Heitinga. Agree with the defence of Duffy, the lad has a future at the club and will be an asset we need to keep.
Martin Mason
111 Posted 24/03/2012 at 10:59:12
111 Posted 24/03/2012 at 10:59:12
Andy
All I mean about Duffy is he's still unproven. I apologise if I do him a disservice but I just didn't yet see him as a great source of future hope for us, certainly not to put us in the United class. Perhaps I was influenced by Moyes picking Hibbert in central defence. As I say, though, apologies if he is that good and it'll be a great pleasure to see him do well.
All I mean about Duffy is he's still unproven. I apologise if I do him a disservice but I just didn't yet see him as a great source of future hope for us, certainly not to put us in the United class. Perhaps I was influenced by Moyes picking Hibbert in central defence. As I say, though, apologies if he is that good and it'll be a great pleasure to see him do well.
Richard Reeves
112 Posted 24/03/2012 at 14:17:39
112 Posted 24/03/2012 at 14:17:39
Martin Mason, the voice of reason, CORRECT?
Gavin Ramejkis
113 Posted 24/03/2012 at 16:50:01
113 Posted 24/03/2012 at 16:50:01
Martin I think Moyes chose Hibbert over Duffy for experience rather than ability, as it turns out it worked on that occasion but Duffy needs gametime and experience, when he played alongside Heitinga he shone and made some great tackles and clearances even dribbling out of defence with the ball at his feet.
Brian Lawlor
114 Posted 24/03/2012 at 15:28:45
114 Posted 24/03/2012 at 15:28:45
Well well well. I wish we played footy like Swansea. All that pretty play and unable to break down our dull, negative football but at least they played attractive footy and after all theres plenty on here who'd prefer that to the actual result. Ha ha. What utter bollocks!
There are some people on here that need a reality check. This is a RESULTS driven business and points are what matters. Ask Ian Holloway and next year Brendan 'the messiah' Rodgers.
Some people eat in Burger King and expect it to taste like a meal in Claridges. Ha ha.
There are some people on here that need a reality check. This is a RESULTS driven business and points are what matters. Ask Ian Holloway and next year Brendan 'the messiah' Rodgers.
Some people eat in Burger King and expect it to taste like a meal in Claridges. Ha ha.
Chris Jones [NZ]
115 Posted 24/03/2012 at 17:10:55
115 Posted 24/03/2012 at 17:10:55
"Clubs like Norwich and Swansea actually put Moyes's Everton to shame and that's what hurts most. Small minnow clubs putting the once mighty Everton in the shade when it comes to playing it right."
Well, 3:0 wouldn't have flattered us today and Liverpool were beaten at home by Wigan. As SAF (...spits) once said: "Football, eh? Bloody hell."
Well, 3:0 wouldn't have flattered us today and Liverpool were beaten at home by Wigan. As SAF (...spits) once said: "Football, eh? Bloody hell."
Karl Masters
116 Posted 25/03/2012 at 19:30:58
116 Posted 25/03/2012 at 19:30:58
What Tony says that is correct is swallowed up in all the OTT hate-filled bile that he cannot resist including, which is a shame. Dave Wilson has it spot on though. It is all about results and always has been.
Anybody saying they would rather see us lose 4-3 and be entertained, rather than win a dour game 1-0 is likely to be in a tiny minority. Would they find our defence letting in 4 entertaining? No , they would be on here demanding the Manager be sacked because of alehouse defending more like!
Anybody saying they would rather see us lose 4-3 and be entertained, rather than win a dour game 1-0 is likely to be in a tiny minority. Would they find our defence letting in 4 entertaining? No , they would be on here demanding the Manager be sacked because of alehouse defending more like!
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1 Posted 23/03/2012 at 02:54:07