Season 2011-12 Fan Articles
Better Than the Devil You Know
By Iain McWilliam :: 15/04/2012
83 Comments (»Last)
I haven't contributed to this site for about 2 years but have been a constant 'lurker'. I gave up voicing my opinions because I felt a lot of people were being ignorant to the fact that we were simply treading water and happy with playing it safe and keeping Moyes in charge.
I like David Moyes as a person, I think he is honest, hard working and humble. I think he's a very good coach as well. He's also pragmatic... too pragmatic in my opinion.
His theory, I believe, is that all things being equal that we should never beat Manchester United, Manchester City, Arsenal, Chelsea, or Spurs largely because they have spent more money on their players. Getting the odd point against them or keeping the score down to 0-1 is a success to him and I suppose in a cold-hearted, scientific reasoning he is correct.
He runs the club almost like a computer game (say Football Manager). Before the season has even started, the computer has worked out who will beat who.
For example:
Everton play 38 matches a season = 38 x 3 give you 114 points
Everton play the big six teams 12 times, Moyes believes we will never beat them home or away so that's 12 matches down the drain straight away = 38 ?12 = 26 x 3 = 78 points if we win all our home and away games against other 'lesser' sides (not very likely).
To be more realistic perhaps we could say 13 home wins and 13 away draws will give us 52 points in toal against the 'lesser' teams.
As for the cups, well we would do well if we reach the Quarter Finals of the FA and League Cups, anything else is a bonus.
Going by the above estimations, apart from the League Cup, we have done well. We just under-performed in the League Cup but we have over performed in the FA Cup and have met expectations in the Premier League (at present).
So, from a purely statistical point of view, I would side with the 'In Moyes We Trust' brigade but, and I may be in the minority here, despite football being a business rather than a sport these days, I still believe that a football club manager also needs to encourage a certain amount of optimism or hope with both the players and fans that they can somehow strive to do better.
Rather than say "they are better than us lads so just keep it tight and see how it goes," he should be the first one to say, "come on, have a go, just possibly you are better than you think. Have a go, you have nothing to lose, at least go down fighting knowing that you did the best you could."
I'm in a lousy mood and will be for the next week or so but, as so many other fans have said, as soon as we went 1-0 up and we just shut up shop, I knew what would happen; we handed the initiative back to them. We weren't playing well but Liverpool were even worse.
Distin has been great for us, Coleman has a great attitude, even if he has played crap all season, but they just cocked up. The length of time Moyes and Round spent talking to Coleman before he came on was bizzare and just seemed to epitomize the Moyes attitude. It's not, "Go on, son, keep it simple, just get stuck in, push up and put pressure on in the final third," it seemed to be, 'Okay, don't bomb forward too much, remember to mark him, and stand there... blah blah blah." By the time Coleman got on, his head must have been spinning.
Moyes has been at the club for 10 years now and, although I cannot stand his style of play, I admit he has done a reasonable job in many respects... but I will never embrace his outlook on football. In those 10 years, due to his 'pragmatic approach', he has reduced the expectancy of the fans bit by bit, year on year. This has taken the heat off both himself and Bill Kenwright and put them in a relatively comfortable position where now fans are just as defeatist as him. This is the most saddening aspect of it all.
This result seems to have finally broken the last tiny thread of defiance that us Blues felt. I don't think I've ever felt so down whilst reading some of the comments, not since the '86 cup final anyways.
John Moores once said, 'Everton Fans expect success', our Club motto roughly translates to 'Nothing but the best', but deep down I know that without a huge financial input this club will never see the Premier League trophy again... BUT I want us to go down fighting, regardless of the opposition. I would rather lose 3-2 than 1-0, at the very least I just want to be proud that we remained true to our principles of playing positive, attractive football in the long tradition of the School of Science. It's what made us stand out from other clubs in the past; now we are one of the worst to watch.
When Cloughie took over Notts Forest, did he believe finishing in the upper half of the Second Division was good enough given that the club was skint? When Ferguson took over Aberdeen, did he think 3rd place was good enough? Or when Paul Lambert took over at Wycombe only to lose in the playoffs, had he decided the players had less ambition than him so left?
I'm not saying Lambert is the answer to our prayers (the last manager we took from Norwich was a bloody disaster) but I think it's time for a new managerial approach at the club ? otherwise we will end up like clubs like Wolves, a pale imitation of a once proud club.
Reader Comments (83)
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Richard Dodd
2 Posted 15/04/2012 at 18:14:34
2 Posted 15/04/2012 at 18:14:34
I imagine that, in their hearts, most Evertonians believe Moyes has done well this season to get us to the Semi Final and to seventh in the Prem. However, today is hardly the day to ask for a judgement whilst the disappointment of yesterday is so fresh.
But give it a few weeks and time for him and BB to agree on a new contract and I am sure our faith in the man and his loyalty to the cause will be restored.
He may not have brought us trophies but working miracles to keep us in the hunt for them is a massive achievement in itself.
Don`t lose the faith, any of you!
But give it a few weeks and time for him and BB to agree on a new contract and I am sure our faith in the man and his loyalty to the cause will be restored.
He may not have brought us trophies but working miracles to keep us in the hunt for them is a massive achievement in itself.
Don`t lose the faith, any of you!
Iain McWilliam
3 Posted 15/04/2012 at 18:27:21
3 Posted 15/04/2012 at 18:27:21
Your response proves my point in many ways. During the 10 years with Moyes in charge are expectations have been managed by the negative outlook of the manager.
When I first started watching footy ,part of the fun was thinking maybe we could beat so and so, maybe we could beat Bayern Munich and Liverpool. Now it's, maybe we can beat Aston Villa or Reading in the cup. And no, after the second season with Moyes, I have never expected us to win anything, I'm sorry to say.
When I first started watching footy ,part of the fun was thinking maybe we could beat so and so, maybe we could beat Bayern Munich and Liverpool. Now it's, maybe we can beat Aston Villa or Reading in the cup. And no, after the second season with Moyes, I have never expected us to win anything, I'm sorry to say.
Michael Kenrick
4 Posted 15/04/2012 at 18:30:57
4 Posted 15/04/2012 at 18:30:57
Doddy, you have helped me reaffirm my total faith in Moyes.... Total faith that he will always be a Loser.
And there's nothing special about today; I felt like this yesterday and the day before, and for many, many days previously.
There is now no doubt I will feel the same for many, many more days while he continues as Manager of Everton Football Club.
And there's nothing special about today; I felt like this yesterday and the day before, and for many, many days previously.
There is now no doubt I will feel the same for many, many more days while he continues as Manager of Everton Football Club.
Iain McWilliam
5 Posted 15/04/2012 at 18:31:09
5 Posted 15/04/2012 at 18:31:09
I know you get quite a bit of stick on here doddy but I do admire your optimism. I'm in the odd minority who dislikes Moyes (as a manager) and quite likes Kenwright. He did after all save us from agent Johnson, his only failing is that he doesnt have as much spare cash as we want him to (and he waffles on a bit). I think Moyes and Kenwright are good blokes but there needs to be some new energy inputed from somewhere as this long slow death of the club is painful.
Stephen Doyle
6 Posted 15/04/2012 at 18:35:05
6 Posted 15/04/2012 at 18:35:05
Richard, what trophies have we been 'in the hunt for'? Apart from the 2009 Final (in which Moyes was found wanting) every other Cup competition has been a complete failure! Quarter finals and semi-finals are NOT a success!
John Crossley
7 Posted 15/04/2012 at 18:34:42
7 Posted 15/04/2012 at 18:34:42
Richard, I totally and utterly lost all my faith in Moyes walking away from Wembley yesterday. I'm sick of listening to all the so-called experts saying Moyes is a great manager. He has worked miracles; yes, he has... 10 years later we have won nowt. Tell me, are you happy after 10 years of his trophyless management, considering he is a great manager???
James Stewart
8 Posted 15/04/2012 at 19:01:12
8 Posted 15/04/2012 at 19:01:12
Good well thought out article which I agree with most of. I don't agree Lambert would improve the style of football at all. He looks more of a Moyes lite to me. Rogers now that is a guy who will achieve great things once he has better players to work with.
Iain McWilliam
9 Posted 15/04/2012 at 19:06:29
9 Posted 15/04/2012 at 19:06:29
Yes James, I much prefer to watch Rodgers team (statistically, Norwich play more long balls than even Stoke) but there lies the conundrum. Theres a balance needed between attractive football and effective football (something Moyes has never quite worked out). I only offered Lambert as an example of how a positive attitude rubs off on the players and club.
John Crossley
10 Posted 15/04/2012 at 19:15:21
10 Posted 15/04/2012 at 19:15:21
There are not enough Evertonians in the present Everton side, check our history when it comes to success.
James Stewart
11 Posted 15/04/2012 at 19:15:12
11 Posted 15/04/2012 at 19:15:12
Lambert is a great motivator, I can't argue with that Iain. As you say though, I really enjoy watching Swansea play. Rogers has massive respect in the game from his time at Chelsea. Mourinho and Lampard are no mugs and they were both talking about how impressive he is.
I think after a decade of dour negative shite from Moyes (and I include the season we finished 4th in that!) I couldn't take another Moyes. We should be looking at someone like Rogers with a totally different outlook & style.
I think after a decade of dour negative shite from Moyes (and I include the season we finished 4th in that!) I couldn't take another Moyes. We should be looking at someone like Rogers with a totally different outlook & style.
Bob Willis
12 Posted 15/04/2012 at 18:58:14
12 Posted 15/04/2012 at 18:58:14
Lot of talk about trophies - 'we have been tropyless for 10 years'.
We will never win trophies until we start playing football. Football is a game. The object of 'most' games is to win. Nine times out of every ten, if you don't play the game you don't win - but to win you must play the game - sounds daft??.
There are of course different ways of playing the game - in my book the game is only worth playing if you play to win.
Now perhaps 'winning' in the Everton management phsykie (someone help me out with the spelling) is to remain in the PL - that is not my interpretation of winning - ie. not losing!!
I do believe that Moyes and Kenwright have tried their best and I'm pretty sure they will still be at the helm this time next year - and yes I have renewed my Season Ticket - but am I happy?? No I am fucking not!.
Now, I feel is a great time for EFC to take the bull by the horns and start laying the foundations for the NEXT ten years - forget the Last Ten Years.
Move on. Or to paraphrase 'Walk on, Walk on with hope in your heart.'
As much as I hate those utterings I think it's time to do it. NOW>
We will never win trophies until we start playing football. Football is a game. The object of 'most' games is to win. Nine times out of every ten, if you don't play the game you don't win - but to win you must play the game - sounds daft??.
There are of course different ways of playing the game - in my book the game is only worth playing if you play to win.
Now perhaps 'winning' in the Everton management phsykie (someone help me out with the spelling) is to remain in the PL - that is not my interpretation of winning - ie. not losing!!
I do believe that Moyes and Kenwright have tried their best and I'm pretty sure they will still be at the helm this time next year - and yes I have renewed my Season Ticket - but am I happy?? No I am fucking not!.
Now, I feel is a great time for EFC to take the bull by the horns and start laying the foundations for the NEXT ten years - forget the Last Ten Years.
Move on. Or to paraphrase 'Walk on, Walk on with hope in your heart.'
As much as I hate those utterings I think it's time to do it. NOW>
Richard Dodd
13 Posted 15/04/2012 at 19:17:23
13 Posted 15/04/2012 at 19:17:23
Both Rogers and Lambert will turn out to be `One Season Wonders` like many before them, whilst Moyes has won the acclamation of the football world over a TEN-YEAR span.
Neither of these `would-be, would-bes` are worthy of being spoken of in the same breath as our man!
Neither of these `would-be, would-bes` are worthy of being spoken of in the same breath as our man!
Iain McWilliam
14 Posted 15/04/2012 at 19:26:20
14 Posted 15/04/2012 at 19:26:20
There's a quote in the film Chinatown where one of the characters says, 'Even old buildings become respectable after a while'. I think the same applies to managers. West Ham used to have Ron Greenwood and John Bond in charge for years... they won two cups in about 20 years between them I think. The only good thing I can say about them is that their teams played good football... something Moyes can't use as an excuse I'm afraid.
Stephen Doyle
15 Posted 15/04/2012 at 19:27:50
15 Posted 15/04/2012 at 19:27:50
Just had a look at odds on the next Everton manager, some grim names here! Rodgers would be my choice, but think it will be all irrelevant when (unfortunately) Moyes signs a new contract.
Phil Neville 4/1
Steve Round 5/1
Martin O'Neill 7/1
Owen Coyle 7/1
Mark Hughes 8/1
Alex McLeish 10/1
Steve Bruce 12/1
Sam Allardyce 12/1
Brendan Rodgers 14/1
Steve McClaren 16/1
Walter Smith 16/1
Slaven Bilic 16/1
Alan Shearer 25/1
Roy Keane 25/1
Sven Goran Eriksson 25/1
Alan Curbishley 25/1
Glen Hoddle 40/1
Terry Venables 40/1
Paul Ince 50/1
Graham Souness 50/1
Peter Reid 50/1
Andy Gray 100/1
Gary Lineker 100/1
Phil Neville 4/1
Steve Round 5/1
Martin O'Neill 7/1
Owen Coyle 7/1
Mark Hughes 8/1
Alex McLeish 10/1
Steve Bruce 12/1
Sam Allardyce 12/1
Brendan Rodgers 14/1
Steve McClaren 16/1
Walter Smith 16/1
Slaven Bilic 16/1
Alan Shearer 25/1
Roy Keane 25/1
Sven Goran Eriksson 25/1
Alan Curbishley 25/1
Glen Hoddle 40/1
Terry Venables 40/1
Paul Ince 50/1
Graham Souness 50/1
Peter Reid 50/1
Andy Gray 100/1
Gary Lineker 100/1
John Daley
16 Posted 15/04/2012 at 19:43:02
16 Posted 15/04/2012 at 19:43:02
Honestly, I no longer give a shit about statistics, points per pounds spent, top 8 finishes and the like. The key barometer for me is that I now find going the game a joyless, infuriating chore about 84.2% of the time. I never felt like this under any manager but Moyes even when I was regularly watching ostensibly worse players obtaining much poorer results.
I know, on the face of it, that doesn't make much sense and I can only put it down to the sheer predictability of the current set up. It's like watching endless re-runs of fucking Columbo. It's the exact same plot every episode with the dishevelled little dosser detecting the culprit in the first five minutes, before pointlessly befriending them and pissing about for 45 mins before finally dropping his "oh, just one more thing sir" line with a cheeky glint in his glass eye. Â
We all know which players are going to feature when fit, what system we're going to play, what tactics we're going to use, what time the subs are going to be made, who those subs are likely to be, which grounds we're going to go to and wilt, which players are going to come out and spout the same old shite, how the first half of the season's gonna pan out, how the second half of the season's gonna pan out, how the summer's sure to be testicular torture with the only transfer activity coming when some cocksucker gets sold combined with the annual amateurish pre-season tour of America and a friendly against pissing Preston.
Not all of the above can be pinned on Moyes but most of it can. Everything has just become terribly stale and I, for one, would welcome some fresh impetus and new ideas. If there's an element of risk attatched to entering the unknown then i would rather face that than perpetual mundanity.
Saying that, what do I know? I've still renewed my season ticket so I'm obviously soft in the fucking head.
I know, on the face of it, that doesn't make much sense and I can only put it down to the sheer predictability of the current set up. It's like watching endless re-runs of fucking Columbo. It's the exact same plot every episode with the dishevelled little dosser detecting the culprit in the first five minutes, before pointlessly befriending them and pissing about for 45 mins before finally dropping his "oh, just one more thing sir" line with a cheeky glint in his glass eye. Â
We all know which players are going to feature when fit, what system we're going to play, what tactics we're going to use, what time the subs are going to be made, who those subs are likely to be, which grounds we're going to go to and wilt, which players are going to come out and spout the same old shite, how the first half of the season's gonna pan out, how the second half of the season's gonna pan out, how the summer's sure to be testicular torture with the only transfer activity coming when some cocksucker gets sold combined with the annual amateurish pre-season tour of America and a friendly against pissing Preston.
Not all of the above can be pinned on Moyes but most of it can. Everything has just become terribly stale and I, for one, would welcome some fresh impetus and new ideas. If there's an element of risk attatched to entering the unknown then i would rather face that than perpetual mundanity.
Saying that, what do I know? I've still renewed my season ticket so I'm obviously soft in the fucking head.
Richard Dodd
17 Posted 15/04/2012 at 19:37:28
17 Posted 15/04/2012 at 19:37:28
This is an old arguement on ToffeeWeb but I have to say that the biggest criticism I hear of Moyes other than on this site is boredom of `the same old same old`....even though it`s proved successful.
I cannot recall EVER reading a professional assessment of him that was in any way critical and fans of nearly every club we meet say they would love to have him as their manager.
Yes,it proves the adage that `the devil you know......`
I cannot recall EVER reading a professional assessment of him that was in any way critical and fans of nearly every club we meet say they would love to have him as their manager.
Yes,it proves the adage that `the devil you know......`
Mark Riding
19 Posted 15/04/2012 at 19:47:52
19 Posted 15/04/2012 at 19:47:52
Richard, the cup run has made a few fans forget the absolute shite served up at Goodison earlier this season..
How has 'the same old been proved sucessful' ??
Sucessful ? I take it, thats not being relegated then.. Mike Walker and a durunken Kendall werent even relagated...
I do however, genuinely admire your support for Moyes and I hope he sends you birthday cards etc as you deserve it.
How has 'the same old been proved sucessful' ??
Sucessful ? I take it, thats not being relegated then.. Mike Walker and a durunken Kendall werent even relagated...
I do however, genuinely admire your support for Moyes and I hope he sends you birthday cards etc as you deserve it.
Mike Hayes
20 Posted 15/04/2012 at 19:52:13
20 Posted 15/04/2012 at 19:52:13
I'd sooner have a monkey in charge than that losing berk Moyes. Do us all a favour and do one now. You have singlehandly destroyed many fans' faith in your ability to take this club anywhere other than mediocrity.
Phil Bellis
21 Posted 15/04/2012 at 19:57:26
21 Posted 15/04/2012 at 19:57:26
All it proves, Doddy, is you just don't get it and you never will.
Surviving in life has proved successful but some prefer to enjoy living as well
You may not realise it as you've never experienced better, but for those of us who have, watching Moyes's Everton is often a chore ? the odd games where the players seem to ignore "the plan" and just have a go just show how much dross is generally served up.
Surviving in life has proved successful but some prefer to enjoy living as well
You may not realise it as you've never experienced better, but for those of us who have, watching Moyes's Everton is often a chore ? the odd games where the players seem to ignore "the plan" and just have a go just show how much dross is generally served up.
Lee Smith
23 Posted 15/04/2012 at 19:58:18
23 Posted 15/04/2012 at 19:58:18
Does this mean we can protest again?
Ryan Holroyd
24 Posted 15/04/2012 at 20:04:56
24 Posted 15/04/2012 at 20:04:56
John Daley
I've just pissed myself laughing at your post. Top quality.
I've just pissed myself laughing at your post. Top quality.
Charles Barrow
25 Posted 15/04/2012 at 20:16:53
25 Posted 15/04/2012 at 20:16:53
Moyes is a crap manager who uses lack of money as an excuse for his negative tactics, his over reliance on 'loyal' players who presumably don't answer back but shouldn't be in the team and his poor man mangement (especially his aversion to blooding young players who have attitude... Is that why Barkley is not in the squad?
Remember his dropping of Rooney... Christ, if Messi was at Everton, he wouldn't get a game as Moyes would expect him to tackle back all game or play as a 'holding midfielder' and if he questioned why he would be dropped!
Remember his dropping of Rooney... Christ, if Messi was at Everton, he wouldn't get a game as Moyes would expect him to tackle back all game or play as a 'holding midfielder' and if he questioned why he would be dropped!
Colin Grierson
26 Posted 15/04/2012 at 20:13:05
26 Posted 15/04/2012 at 20:13:05
RICHARD DODD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just because the Football media love Moyes does not mean he is good. He is praised for keeping us in the Prem (mid table) and unearthing the odd decent player. Im not deeply depressed by the not having won anything during his tenure but I am deeply depressed about the manner of our play when faced by what he regards as superior opponents.
The reason that there is a clamour for Rodgers or Lambert is not because they have survived a year in the Prem but the manner in which their teams play football. It is excitng, expansive, progressive and good to watch.
Life is about taking the odd risk and doing it with style. Moyes plays it safe and views mediocrity as success.
If charged with the sole aim of coming his duff he'd have a wank over the lingerie section of the Grattan catalogue. Sad, embarrassing and utterly forgettable but safe.
I don't know about you Doddy but I wont settle for the Grattan catalogue.
I worry about who might replace Moyes but I worry more about him not being replaced.
Just because the Football media love Moyes does not mean he is good. He is praised for keeping us in the Prem (mid table) and unearthing the odd decent player. Im not deeply depressed by the not having won anything during his tenure but I am deeply depressed about the manner of our play when faced by what he regards as superior opponents.
The reason that there is a clamour for Rodgers or Lambert is not because they have survived a year in the Prem but the manner in which their teams play football. It is excitng, expansive, progressive and good to watch.
Life is about taking the odd risk and doing it with style. Moyes plays it safe and views mediocrity as success.
If charged with the sole aim of coming his duff he'd have a wank over the lingerie section of the Grattan catalogue. Sad, embarrassing and utterly forgettable but safe.
I don't know about you Doddy but I wont settle for the Grattan catalogue.
I worry about who might replace Moyes but I worry more about him not being replaced.
Joe McMahon
27 Posted 15/04/2012 at 20:45:27
27 Posted 15/04/2012 at 20:45:27
Roberto Martinez.....Please!
Doddy, are you for real.....he's had 10 bloody years!!. I'm 42, last time we won at Anfield I was still in my 20's, it might not to you, but to me that hurts.
Doddy, are you for real.....he's had 10 bloody years!!. I'm 42, last time we won at Anfield I was still in my 20's, it might not to you, but to me that hurts.
Gareth Fieldstead
28 Posted 15/04/2012 at 20:30:38
28 Posted 15/04/2012 at 20:30:38
Good point Lee. It will be interesting to see how many season tickets are sold. For me personally the saddest aspect of Kenwrights reign has been the continual erosion of expectation of a once proud club. Sure several clubs have more money to spend but for me it has become an excuse for the mediocre football and lack of ambition. Plenty of clubs, some now playing there football in the lower tiers have won trophies during the last 12 years. What I just don't understand is that Kenwright has seen even more successful Everton sides than me, how can he justify what we are watching now?
Gareth Fieldstead
29 Posted 15/04/2012 at 20:50:01
29 Posted 15/04/2012 at 20:50:01
Sorry that was meant to say, that several clubs with less financial means, smaller fan bases etc have won trophies during Moyes reign. The likes of Boro, Birmingham, Portsmouth, Blackburn etc.
Shane Corcoran
30 Posted 15/04/2012 at 21:03:41
30 Posted 15/04/2012 at 21:03:41
Am I the only one that thinks Richard Dodd is a wind-up merchant?
Jimmy Sørheim
31 Posted 15/04/2012 at 20:43:31
31 Posted 15/04/2012 at 20:43:31
Thank you Phil Bellis!
I agree with you fully, I feel the same way, and I hope we can get back to enjoying football the way it is suppose to be played again some day.
I am jealous of Swansea fans, the football they play is worth watching, while ours is more out of a duty thing.
I am just tired, really tired of Moyes and his ultra defensive style.
I agree with you fully, I feel the same way, and I hope we can get back to enjoying football the way it is suppose to be played again some day.
I am jealous of Swansea fans, the football they play is worth watching, while ours is more out of a duty thing.
I am just tired, really tired of Moyes and his ultra defensive style.
John Daley
32 Posted 15/04/2012 at 21:11:22
32 Posted 15/04/2012 at 21:11:22
"...`the same old same old`....even though it`s proved successful."
Richard,
I always presumed, going off your past posts and claims of complete contentment, that you were a bit younger than myself and were brought up on a strict diet of Walker and Walter. However, I seem to recall you gave your age as 36 in a recent post and so you're actually older than I am.
I first started watching the game in the mid eighties, just in time to see Everton transform into a truly successful team. Players like Peter Reid, Neville Southall, Kevin Sheedy, and even Alan Harper, were my first footballing heroes so, admittedly, I might have been spoilt at an early age but I just can't see how you can equate the current situation to 'success'. Stability maybe, but not success.
The truth is Richard you probably believe that, realistically, we can't do any better for the forseeable future so feign complete satisfaction with the current situation. It's one thing to be accepting of the way things are but to try and convince everyone that it's all super, smashing, great, and every little achievement is incredible and must be lauded just makes you sound like a cross between Jim Bowen and a coked up Blue Peter presenter.
It's like when Beyonce's bouncing her arse all over the tv and your missus turns to you and asks " Do you find her more attractive than me?", and you say "No way love, I much prefer your Rick Waller style rump". You might say you're happy with what you've got but you're basically lying to her and deluding yourself. Your intentions might be honorable but, deep down, you know fine well that if you ever had the chance you'd be balls deep in it before you'd even took your duffle coat off.Â
Richard,
I always presumed, going off your past posts and claims of complete contentment, that you were a bit younger than myself and were brought up on a strict diet of Walker and Walter. However, I seem to recall you gave your age as 36 in a recent post and so you're actually older than I am.
I first started watching the game in the mid eighties, just in time to see Everton transform into a truly successful team. Players like Peter Reid, Neville Southall, Kevin Sheedy, and even Alan Harper, were my first footballing heroes so, admittedly, I might have been spoilt at an early age but I just can't see how you can equate the current situation to 'success'. Stability maybe, but not success.
The truth is Richard you probably believe that, realistically, we can't do any better for the forseeable future so feign complete satisfaction with the current situation. It's one thing to be accepting of the way things are but to try and convince everyone that it's all super, smashing, great, and every little achievement is incredible and must be lauded just makes you sound like a cross between Jim Bowen and a coked up Blue Peter presenter.
It's like when Beyonce's bouncing her arse all over the tv and your missus turns to you and asks " Do you find her more attractive than me?", and you say "No way love, I much prefer your Rick Waller style rump". You might say you're happy with what you've got but you're basically lying to her and deluding yourself. Your intentions might be honorable but, deep down, you know fine well that if you ever had the chance you'd be balls deep in it before you'd even took your duffle coat off.Â
Shane Corcoran
33 Posted 15/04/2012 at 21:15:32
33 Posted 15/04/2012 at 21:15:32
Something drew me towards your last paragraph first John and I'm so glad I didn't resist. Beautiful.
Kevin Tully
34 Posted 15/04/2012 at 21:18:00
34 Posted 15/04/2012 at 21:18:00
?I thought that if we finish in the top 10 this year it would be a good for year for us in the Premier League with the way things were. We still have to do that."
A quote from the man himself, tells you all you need to know about our mangers ambition.
A quote from the man himself, tells you all you need to know about our mangers ambition.
Jim Knightley
35 Posted 15/04/2012 at 21:19:18
35 Posted 15/04/2012 at 21:19:18
Iain...please explain how Moyes has reduced the expectation of us fans...When he took over, we had no expectations. We had a relegation squad on the brink of relegation...with a net spend of 2million a year we have been transformed to such an extent that many on here are now calling for his head because we have lost a semi-final to Liverpool, despite sitting 7th in the league, above our neighbours who have completely outspent us, and below other clubs who have done the same. The game was horrible yesterday, not only because we dropped too deep but because we gave them the first, and to some extent the second, goal. But their first goal was scored by a player brought for £25million, and the second by one brought for £35million. That is the reason why we struggle to compete, and why we will struggle to win something in the near future.
You can post all the shit posts you want concerning Beyonce allusions and all sorts...but the reality is Moyes has been incredibly successful as regards to the money spent and wages. Look at the finishes, look at the facts. Don't worry though, Moyes will leave in the next five years because of our financial situation, and you will get the chance to see what a new manager can do. But I believe our next manager is more likely to lead us to relegation than to achieve more than Moyes.
You can post all the shit posts you want concerning Beyonce allusions and all sorts...but the reality is Moyes has been incredibly successful as regards to the money spent and wages. Look at the finishes, look at the facts. Don't worry though, Moyes will leave in the next five years because of our financial situation, and you will get the chance to see what a new manager can do. But I believe our next manager is more likely to lead us to relegation than to achieve more than Moyes.
Kevin Tully
36 Posted 15/04/2012 at 21:32:41
36 Posted 15/04/2012 at 21:32:41
Jim - I take it Chelsea, Spurs & Man U will be after our successful manager then ?
Jim Knightley
37 Posted 15/04/2012 at 21:43:59
37 Posted 15/04/2012 at 21:43:59
Why those teams Kevin? There are many more teams out there with better prospects than us, and we likely to decline over the next few seasons without money. Although I believe Spurs could be a potential option.
Paul Johnson
38 Posted 15/04/2012 at 21:40:33
38 Posted 15/04/2012 at 21:40:33
Never thought I would stoop this low but here goes and Jim it is not personal but in my opinion you are talking out of your defeatist, happy with mediocrity arse.
I seriously don't know how anyone can defend a man who is one game away from an FA cup final and he looks to play safe.
Liverpool fans are laughing their cocks off at us. Don't know bout you but it hurts me like fuck.
I seriously don't know how anyone can defend a man who is one game away from an FA cup final and he looks to play safe.
Liverpool fans are laughing their cocks off at us. Don't know bout you but it hurts me like fuck.
James Stewart
39 Posted 15/04/2012 at 21:47:11
39 Posted 15/04/2012 at 21:47:11
Way off Jim. There isn't a snowball in hell's chance Spurs would want Moyes. They will take Rogers and wisely so.
You claim that we simply couldn't compete with 35m players yet are you telling me you would rather have carrol up front than Jelavic? For the first time in a long while we have a team better than the RS. However you want to dress it up man for man we have a better team. Moyes got it tactically way off just as he did in the 2009 final.
You claim that we simply couldn't compete with 35m players yet are you telling me you would rather have carrol up front than Jelavic? For the first time in a long while we have a team better than the RS. However you want to dress it up man for man we have a better team. Moyes got it tactically way off just as he did in the 2009 final.
Terry Downes
40 Posted 15/04/2012 at 21:50:59
40 Posted 15/04/2012 at 21:50:59
Hey Doddy,
It doesn't matter who could or wouldn't be better than Moyes because, as long as he's here, we'll never know...
One question, though, Doddy: If Moyes decides to leave of his own choice, then what the fuck do we do??? ... Because, according to you and others, we can't go on without him ? he's irreplaceable!!!
It doesn't matter who could or wouldn't be better than Moyes because, as long as he's here, we'll never know...
One question, though, Doddy: If Moyes decides to leave of his own choice, then what the fuck do we do??? ... Because, according to you and others, we can't go on without him ? he's irreplaceable!!!
James Stewart
41 Posted 15/04/2012 at 21:52:24
41 Posted 15/04/2012 at 21:52:24
I saw on most of the match reports where comments could be left (sky, the guardian etc) loads of RS fans commenting "ten more years of Moyes please"
Says it all really
Says it all really
Iain McWilliam
42 Posted 15/04/2012 at 21:38:34
42 Posted 15/04/2012 at 21:38:34
My personal expectations have not dropped one iota, which goes to explain why I feel so out of synch with many of the the TW contributors. I respect your reverence for David Moyes because, if I had not been around when we won trophies, I would probably be happy with our lot... but I'm not.
I cannot accept we are 'also rans' and I never will. It's comments like, 'we are the underdogs', or 'other clubs have spent more than us,' that have compounded the impression that we are not worthy of beating the 'big teams' that have affected the idealogy of the club and therefore the players and subsequently the fans.
Moyes is happy with being second best and that is something we should never expect ? no matter how much money we do or don't have. Football to me is about trying to achieve what we can with a bit of self-belief rather than what we cannot with a bit of pragmatism.
What is the point of going to watch a football match if you don't have the belief that you cannot achieve more than you have spent?
What is the point in supporting a team that does not believe it is better than Man City or Man Utd as a collective rather than as individuals?
It's the defeatism attitude before the match has even begun that annoys me the most ? not the actual match performance.
I cannot accept we are 'also rans' and I never will. It's comments like, 'we are the underdogs', or 'other clubs have spent more than us,' that have compounded the impression that we are not worthy of beating the 'big teams' that have affected the idealogy of the club and therefore the players and subsequently the fans.
Moyes is happy with being second best and that is something we should never expect ? no matter how much money we do or don't have. Football to me is about trying to achieve what we can with a bit of self-belief rather than what we cannot with a bit of pragmatism.
What is the point of going to watch a football match if you don't have the belief that you cannot achieve more than you have spent?
What is the point in supporting a team that does not believe it is better than Man City or Man Utd as a collective rather than as individuals?
It's the defeatism attitude before the match has even begun that annoys me the most ? not the actual match performance.
Jim Knightley
43 Posted 15/04/2012 at 21:50:54
43 Posted 15/04/2012 at 21:50:54
Of course it hurts Paul, but I am not a reactionary. Being in the top 10 in the Premier league with a Championship budget is no mediocrity. No offense, but you are talking out of your irrational and unrealistic arse. Money wins leagues and cups; I want to see us stable until we get a buyer.
(Under) 2million net spend a year, and Moyes has transformed this team. The reason the neutrals like Moyes, the reason he gets LMA awards, is because they, unlike many Everton fans, realise he achieves more than he should. I want us to win cups, I want us to get into the top four, and yesterday hurt as much as any result in recent memory. But it does not mean I believe Moyes should be replaced. Everyone loves Harry, how did his team perform today? how many trophies has Wenger won of late?
(Under) 2million net spend a year, and Moyes has transformed this team. The reason the neutrals like Moyes, the reason he gets LMA awards, is because they, unlike many Everton fans, realise he achieves more than he should. I want us to win cups, I want us to get into the top four, and yesterday hurt as much as any result in recent memory. But it does not mean I believe Moyes should be replaced. Everyone loves Harry, how did his team perform today? how many trophies has Wenger won of late?
Kevin Tully
44 Posted 15/04/2012 at 21:53:32
44 Posted 15/04/2012 at 21:53:32
Jim, If Harry takes the England job, Spurs & Chelsea will be looking for mangers in a few weeks, Fergie is ready to retire at Man U.
If Moyes is that good, then surely he would be in the frame for these jobs ?
Spurs fans would not put up with negative arse Moyes for one minute, and neither would Daniel Levy.
We are paying £3m a season for someone just to keep us in the League, a ridiculous amount considering our financial position.
If Moyes is that good, then surely he would be in the frame for these jobs ?
Spurs fans would not put up with negative arse Moyes for one minute, and neither would Daniel Levy.
We are paying £3m a season for someone just to keep us in the League, a ridiculous amount considering our financial position.
James Stewart
45 Posted 15/04/2012 at 22:00:02
45 Posted 15/04/2012 at 22:00:02
Surely your not comparing Moyes to Wenger now Jim!?
We will never be relegated under Moyes.
But we will never win anything under Moyes either. This is worth £3m a year to BK.
We will never be relegated under Moyes.
But we will never win anything under Moyes either. This is worth £3m a year to BK.
Paul Johnson
46 Posted 15/04/2012 at 22:00:08
46 Posted 15/04/2012 at 22:00:08
Sorry Jim but this is were I just don't get your train of thought...maybe it's me who is wrong? But why the fuck should I not expect my team to TRY to go out and win every game. Especially a one off semi final. If that is being irrational or unrealistic then I am guilty as charged your honour.
Matt Traynor
47 Posted 15/04/2012 at 22:02:40
47 Posted 15/04/2012 at 22:02:40
Too many people here have low expectations, and I wonder whether it permeates throughout their life. Football has undoubtedly changed but for many it is still escapism - albeit a pursuit that costs significantly more.
But the amount of people who refuse to apportion "blame", or make excuses, or generally defend the indefensible makes me wonder what goes on in their wider life.
Do they have any ambitions, or is everything painted in their cold hard reality with an excuse for everything and abdication of responsibility.
I sincerely hope these people are not educators!
But the amount of people who refuse to apportion "blame", or make excuses, or generally defend the indefensible makes me wonder what goes on in their wider life.
Do they have any ambitions, or is everything painted in their cold hard reality with an excuse for everything and abdication of responsibility.
I sincerely hope these people are not educators!
Barry Rathbone
48 Posted 15/04/2012 at 21:55:18
48 Posted 15/04/2012 at 21:55:18
Jim Knightley
You claim we had no expectations when Moyes took over, I disagree.
Even during the relegation threatened seasons it seemed like a temporary aberration, we were shite, we knew we were shite, but we were still Everton.
The club would fight, we would fight, we did fight.
We are steady that is all, the SKY program featuring DM & BK laughing about the past 10 years as halcyon days just reeked of "we're untouchable (BK&DM)".
Now that's low expectations by this clubs historic standards.
The fact they can appear untouchable on tv tells you it's become acceptable.
BTW if we had another "Wimbledon game" under Moyes I wouldn't expect us to win.
You claim we had no expectations when Moyes took over, I disagree.
Even during the relegation threatened seasons it seemed like a temporary aberration, we were shite, we knew we were shite, but we were still Everton.
The club would fight, we would fight, we did fight.
We are steady that is all, the SKY program featuring DM & BK laughing about the past 10 years as halcyon days just reeked of "we're untouchable (BK&DM)".
Now that's low expectations by this clubs historic standards.
The fact they can appear untouchable on tv tells you it's become acceptable.
BTW if we had another "Wimbledon game" under Moyes I wouldn't expect us to win.
Jim Knightley
49 Posted 15/04/2012 at 21:59:36
49 Posted 15/04/2012 at 21:59:36
James, I would be willing to bet a very large amount on Spurs not taking Rodgers when Harry leaves this summer. You think they would take a manager after one good season in the prem? Especially as there are increasing signs that Swansea are being figured out. They will be in a relegation dog fight next year.
James, how did I claim that we could not compete with a 35million player? my point is that they can spend so much money. Jelavic is great, we've had him for half a season. How much is our second striker worth? there's is worth 35million. How can we compete, when Liverpool and other teams have the capability to spend/waste so much on so many players? And I disagree, we do not imo have a better team/squad than Liverpool. I think they have wasted an insane amount of money, I think Dalglish should go, but they should not be where they are with their squad. They've been unlucky this season, and yesterday they had players like Kuyt, Bellamy, Enrique and Maxi on the bench. We cannot compete with them financially. If Moyes had the funds Liverpool had over the past 10 years, I believe we would be a top four team with at least one cup to our name. But we have had the budget of a lower half prem team (and now a championship team).
Iain, I think you are overplaying this defeatist attitude. Do not forget that we beat Manchester City, Spurs and Chelski in successive home games this season. You do not beat those teams with a defeatist attitude.
James, how did I claim that we could not compete with a 35million player? my point is that they can spend so much money. Jelavic is great, we've had him for half a season. How much is our second striker worth? there's is worth 35million. How can we compete, when Liverpool and other teams have the capability to spend/waste so much on so many players? And I disagree, we do not imo have a better team/squad than Liverpool. I think they have wasted an insane amount of money, I think Dalglish should go, but they should not be where they are with their squad. They've been unlucky this season, and yesterday they had players like Kuyt, Bellamy, Enrique and Maxi on the bench. We cannot compete with them financially. If Moyes had the funds Liverpool had over the past 10 years, I believe we would be a top four team with at least one cup to our name. But we have had the budget of a lower half prem team (and now a championship team).
Iain, I think you are overplaying this defeatist attitude. Do not forget that we beat Manchester City, Spurs and Chelski in successive home games this season. You do not beat those teams with a defeatist attitude.
Kevin Tully
50 Posted 15/04/2012 at 22:08:34
50 Posted 15/04/2012 at 22:08:34
Nail on head Matt. You get where you want to in in life, where you believe you should be. Does anyone think Clough would have won European Cups with Forest if he was happy just to be in the top division ?
Ambition goes hand in hand with talent.
Ambition goes hand in hand with talent.
Stephen Sullivan
51 Posted 15/04/2012 at 22:12:12
51 Posted 15/04/2012 at 22:12:12
James 015
It's fair to say that most Everton fans would like Dalglish to stay at Liverpool for the next 10years too
It's fair to say that most Everton fans would like Dalglish to stay at Liverpool for the next 10years too
Eugene Ruane
52 Posted 15/04/2012 at 22:14:24
52 Posted 15/04/2012 at 22:14:24
John Daley - 943, you say..
"Everything has just become terribly stale and I for one would welcome some fresh impetus and new ideas. If there's an element of risk attached to entering the unknown then i would rather face that than perpetual mundanity"
Sums up exactly how I feel.
"Everything has just become terribly stale and I for one would welcome some fresh impetus and new ideas. If there's an element of risk attached to entering the unknown then i would rather face that than perpetual mundanity"
Sums up exactly how I feel.
Jim Knightley
53 Posted 15/04/2012 at 22:11:31
53 Posted 15/04/2012 at 22:11:31
Matt, I am (and sure many of the other realist are as well) very successful thanks. I wonder about a person who trys read into a post on a football forum...It is beyond stupid.
Paul, when did I say we should not try and win every game? do you people just read what you want from my posts? Please realise, I am happy with Moyes, because he has achieved more than he should. I am basing this on statistics, which are there in black and white. Not sentiment, not fantasy. Who has won a cup outside the top four in recent seasons? Birmingham have of course...Portsmouth and Middlesborough...where are they now? Why do you people conflate realism and defeatism?
Every Everton fan will go into a game at home with Man U thinking we can win. I do, Moyes does. But that does not mean we should attack them like crazy, or claim before that we should or will win.
Paul, when did I say we should not try and win every game? do you people just read what you want from my posts? Please realise, I am happy with Moyes, because he has achieved more than he should. I am basing this on statistics, which are there in black and white. Not sentiment, not fantasy. Who has won a cup outside the top four in recent seasons? Birmingham have of course...Portsmouth and Middlesborough...where are they now? Why do you people conflate realism and defeatism?
Every Everton fan will go into a game at home with Man U thinking we can win. I do, Moyes does. But that does not mean we should attack them like crazy, or claim before that we should or will win.
Jim Knightley
54 Posted 15/04/2012 at 22:20:56
54 Posted 15/04/2012 at 22:20:56
Barry what does History have to do with now? History is the past, is gone. We live in the present, not on reputation. The game is determined by money; please someone prove otherwise. Why are Real Madrid and Barcelona the two best teams in Spain? Why are Manchester United, City, Chelsea, Spurs etc at the top of the Prem? Is it because they have a more optimistic attitude?
Hang on a minute...They've spent the most money.
Also, no manager could repeat what Clough did now. It is not possible, the game is too different.
Moyes is not a defeatist. He would not have exceeded what he should have achieved (as determined by money) if he was.
Hang on a minute...They've spent the most money.
Also, no manager could repeat what Clough did now. It is not possible, the game is too different.
Moyes is not a defeatist. He would not have exceeded what he should have achieved (as determined by money) if he was.
Paul Johnson
55 Posted 15/04/2012 at 22:21:10
55 Posted 15/04/2012 at 22:21:10
Ok Jim I own up I am irrational and unrealistic.
Here's why? I don't actually think we can beat united at the weekend. But I want us to give it a damn good go and and not try to nick one and keep it tight. Ring any bells. Coz if we do, we will go down by 3 or 4.
Hope I am proved totally wrong. But right now that team will take some lifting and so will the supporters who normally play a huge part in these games.
Just an afterthought, why shouldn't we attack them like crazy.....
Here's why? I don't actually think we can beat united at the weekend. But I want us to give it a damn good go and and not try to nick one and keep it tight. Ring any bells. Coz if we do, we will go down by 3 or 4.
Hope I am proved totally wrong. But right now that team will take some lifting and so will the supporters who normally play a huge part in these games.
Just an afterthought, why shouldn't we attack them like crazy.....
Kevin Tully
56 Posted 15/04/2012 at 22:34:21
56 Posted 15/04/2012 at 22:34:21
Let's not bother turning up next week, we have got no chance. I wish i had said to all those kids in tears at Wembley " get real, we cannot beat these, look at the money they have got."
Jim Knightley
57 Posted 15/04/2012 at 22:34:26
57 Posted 15/04/2012 at 22:34:26
Paul, we shouldnt attack them like crazy because it would be tactically naive. Manchester United have an incredible amount of attacking talent, and in your opinion, we would be more likely to get a result by playing open and attacking football? We played more open at Norwich and let in 2 goals. Do it at United and we will let in 4 goals. This most effective tactic would be to play as Fulham did, and then open up and go for a winner in the last ten
One team have attacked Manchester United like crazy all season at Old Trafford and that was Arsenal. They lost 8.2 and they had Van P up front.
This is my point; people conflate realism and defeatism. Playing defensively and on the counter at Old Trafford is not defeatism.
One team have attacked Manchester United like crazy all season at Old Trafford and that was Arsenal. They lost 8.2 and they had Van P up front.
This is my point; people conflate realism and defeatism. Playing defensively and on the counter at Old Trafford is not defeatism.
Paul Johnson
58 Posted 15/04/2012 at 22:40:39
58 Posted 15/04/2012 at 22:40:39
But Jim we were conservative on Saturday and were did that get us......
Paul Johnson
59 Posted 15/04/2012 at 22:41:58
59 Posted 15/04/2012 at 22:41:58
Plus Jim to play on the counter at old trafford you need pace which we don't have in bucket loads....
Paul Johnson
60 Posted 15/04/2012 at 22:44:50
60 Posted 15/04/2012 at 22:44:50
Anyway Jim going to bed now (it's ten to one here in Nairobi) let's hope for a win at the weekend.
Jim Knightley
61 Posted 15/04/2012 at 22:39:56
61 Posted 15/04/2012 at 22:39:56
Lol Kevin, just keep reading what you want to read. When did I say we could not have beaten Liverpool? how difficult is it for you to grasp the concept? I was disappointed with Saturday...I was annoyed we dropped too deep...Ive said this... But that DOES NOT MEAN I WANT MOYES TO GO.
I thought we had a good chance yesterday and blew it. But Liverpool's team is better than ours, and their squad is far better. If we finish in the top half, imo, based on financial restrictions, I believe it would have been a relative success. That does not mean I am happy with it, but I am not so naive as to think our next manager will take a team with no budget and will win trophies and improve our league position.
We need to replace the owner, not a manager who has consistently finished above teams with bigger budgets, and who has transformed a relegation squad into a top 8 team with a tiny budget.
I thought we had a good chance yesterday and blew it. But Liverpool's team is better than ours, and their squad is far better. If we finish in the top half, imo, based on financial restrictions, I believe it would have been a relative success. That does not mean I am happy with it, but I am not so naive as to think our next manager will take a team with no budget and will win trophies and improve our league position.
We need to replace the owner, not a manager who has consistently finished above teams with bigger budgets, and who has transformed a relegation squad into a top 8 team with a tiny budget.
Barry Rathbone
62 Posted 15/04/2012 at 22:38:12
62 Posted 15/04/2012 at 22:38:12
Jim Knightley
"history" was important because you referred to it in your previous assertions.
Money dictates the long term league positions no doubt, but it doesn't dictate every game, as proven every week in every league.
See the CL (manchester clubs) this year and recent results Wigan plus Swansea and Norwich.
Neither is style and philosophy dictated by money (see Rodgers @ Swansea).
These are facts not opinion.
"history" was important because you referred to it in your previous assertions.
Money dictates the long term league positions no doubt, but it doesn't dictate every game, as proven every week in every league.
See the CL (manchester clubs) this year and recent results Wigan plus Swansea and Norwich.
Neither is style and philosophy dictated by money (see Rodgers @ Swansea).
These are facts not opinion.
Jim Knightley
63 Posted 15/04/2012 at 22:48:07
63 Posted 15/04/2012 at 22:48:07
Paul, we played Liverpool at a neutral ground on Saturday, not United, and as I said, I didnt think we should have dropped as a deep as we did (I believe the first-half performance was good though). We cannot attack openly at Old Trafford, we would be destroyed. I am amazed that anyone would advocate it.
I am also off to bed. I would take a draw on Saturday btw, I hope that doesn't make me a defeatist.
I am also off to bed. I would take a draw on Saturday btw, I hope that doesn't make me a defeatist.
Colin Grierson
64 Posted 15/04/2012 at 22:24:47
64 Posted 15/04/2012 at 22:24:47
Jim,
'Do not forget that we beat Manchester City, Spurs and Chelski in successive home games this season. You do not beat those teams with a defeatist attitude.'
Did you see these games? We did beat these teams with a deafetist attitude. We got lucky against all three of the teams you mentioned above. We won ugly and were hanging on.
Why are you so adamant that Rodgers and Lambert are one season wonders? Swansea (like ALL other sides) have had a small dip in from recently and you say that they've been found out. It seems to me that you think you know better than others who disagree with you about Moyes. I'm no soothsayer but I know good football when I see it and Swansea are a class act. Norwich are well organised good to watch aswell. Wigan play better footie than us too but they haven't had our luck.
If we get beat by a team that shows more class than us then fair enough but if we gift them victory through tactical choice then shame on those who dictate the tactics.
You and Doddy are smug and patronising cos the media are on your side. In mine and many others opinion you're all wrong. The reactions on here are far from knee jerks. Moyes has outstayed his welcome. I like the fella but its time for him to move on amicably.
'Do not forget that we beat Manchester City, Spurs and Chelski in successive home games this season. You do not beat those teams with a defeatist attitude.'
Did you see these games? We did beat these teams with a deafetist attitude. We got lucky against all three of the teams you mentioned above. We won ugly and were hanging on.
Why are you so adamant that Rodgers and Lambert are one season wonders? Swansea (like ALL other sides) have had a small dip in from recently and you say that they've been found out. It seems to me that you think you know better than others who disagree with you about Moyes. I'm no soothsayer but I know good football when I see it and Swansea are a class act. Norwich are well organised good to watch aswell. Wigan play better footie than us too but they haven't had our luck.
If we get beat by a team that shows more class than us then fair enough but if we gift them victory through tactical choice then shame on those who dictate the tactics.
You and Doddy are smug and patronising cos the media are on your side. In mine and many others opinion you're all wrong. The reactions on here are far from knee jerks. Moyes has outstayed his welcome. I like the fella but its time for him to move on amicably.
Jim Knightley
65 Posted 15/04/2012 at 22:52:17
65 Posted 15/04/2012 at 22:52:17
Barry, didnt we beat City, Spurs and Chelsea in one off games?
These are facts not opinions.
I am talking about Moyes as successful in terms of final league position, that is clear. And as you realise, money dictates final league positions. Therefore we agree and are not at cross purposes.
Night.
These are facts not opinions.
I am talking about Moyes as successful in terms of final league position, that is clear. And as you realise, money dictates final league positions. Therefore we agree and are not at cross purposes.
Night.
Kevin Tully
66 Posted 15/04/2012 at 22:53:22
66 Posted 15/04/2012 at 22:53:22
The worst Liverpool side in twenty years have beaten us 7-1 over three games this season. They have been on their worst run for fifty years, and still twatted us because they believe they should beat us.
All down to poor management in my opinion, not money.
All down to poor management in my opinion, not money.
Iain McWilliam
67 Posted 15/04/2012 at 22:51:06
67 Posted 15/04/2012 at 22:51:06
You know, the saddest thing it s that we SHOULD be a selling team at this moment in time. Cahill, Fellaini, and Hiettinga should be sold at a profit giuven their age and experience. We ARE a selling club whether we like it or not, and Moyes denies the obvious. When he does leave at the end of this season or next he will leave us with a an ageing squad with little or no long term value apart from Rodwell and Baines. We are screwwed in the medium to long term because Moyes and Kenright live for now rather than the long term. We have no long term assets to sell off now which makes us even less of a prospective purchase for a buyer in the near to long term future. We....are...screwed...because of Moyes. Its all very well saying we are not a selling club, but we are. Rooney has kept us in profit for the last few years. Rodwell will do the the same once he moves to Chelsea.
Eddy Bernard
69 Posted 15/04/2012 at 22:56:29
69 Posted 15/04/2012 at 22:56:29
John @992
I havent raised a smile all weekend but the last paragraph just had me laughing out loud. Thanks
I havent raised a smile all weekend but the last paragraph just had me laughing out loud. Thanks
Danny James
70 Posted 15/04/2012 at 23:18:17
70 Posted 15/04/2012 at 23:18:17
Its a question of whether we want to try and play more attractive football, lose more games and finish about 14th or 15th
Or play dull football, be difficult to beat, lose less games and finish 7th or 8th
Those of you who think we can get a new manager who will make us play brilliant football and take us higher and further than Moyes has are mistaken
Rodgers may get Swansea playing attractive football but they will be relegated next season
Or play dull football, be difficult to beat, lose less games and finish 7th or 8th
Those of you who think we can get a new manager who will make us play brilliant football and take us higher and further than Moyes has are mistaken
Rodgers may get Swansea playing attractive football but they will be relegated next season
Colin Grierson
71 Posted 16/04/2012 at 00:11:30
71 Posted 16/04/2012 at 00:11:30
Thanks for that Mystic Meg piece of punditry Danny.
Swansea going down next year! Where the fuck do you base that argument? Its like listening to Mark 'camera-glancing' Lawrenson.
Why does attractive football lead to being relegated? Someone best tell Pep Guardiola he's got it all wrong!
Anti-football wins fuck all, never has done and never will (Apart from the memorable Greek European Championship triumph ;-) ).
NONSENSE. UTTER BABBLE.
Swansea going down next year! Where the fuck do you base that argument? Its like listening to Mark 'camera-glancing' Lawrenson.
Why does attractive football lead to being relegated? Someone best tell Pep Guardiola he's got it all wrong!
Anti-football wins fuck all, never has done and never will (Apart from the memorable Greek European Championship triumph ;-) ).
NONSENSE. UTTER BABBLE.
James Stewart
72 Posted 16/04/2012 at 01:20:42
72 Posted 16/04/2012 at 01:20:42
Jim what makes you think Rogers has been found out!? He is playing extremely good football while keeping a team up who everyone thought were gonna be whipping boys. He is the kind of manager who could work miracles with better players. That will be why Spurs will look at him over moyes. Rogers has been talked up by Mourinho, Lampard etc and these are no mugs. That guy is around to stay and is no one season wonder.
And stephen I don't want kenny there for another ten years he has already won more with a shite team in one season that Moyes has in a decade.
And stephen I don't want kenny there for another ten years he has already won more with a shite team in one season that Moyes has in a decade.
Jason Lam
73 Posted 16/04/2012 at 02:37:03
73 Posted 16/04/2012 at 02:37:03
Moyes is your typical employee. He is competent in his job however at each annual review he is not promotion material.
7th is only good enough for a workers in a bottling factory.
7th is only good enough for a workers in a bottling factory.
Steven Pendleton
74 Posted 16/04/2012 at 05:45:18
74 Posted 16/04/2012 at 05:45:18
John Daley @ 992
'It's like when Beyonce's bouncing her arse all over the tv and your missus turns to you and asks " Do you find her more attractive than me?", and you say "No way love, I much prefer your Rick Waller style rump". You might say you're happy with what you've got but you're basically lying to her and deluding yourself. Your intentions might be honorable but, deep down, you know fine well that if you ever had the chance you'd be balls deep in it before you'd even took your duffle coat off. '
Absolute Gold!!!!!!!!!
'It's like when Beyonce's bouncing her arse all over the tv and your missus turns to you and asks " Do you find her more attractive than me?", and you say "No way love, I much prefer your Rick Waller style rump". You might say you're happy with what you've got but you're basically lying to her and deluding yourself. Your intentions might be honorable but, deep down, you know fine well that if you ever had the chance you'd be balls deep in it before you'd even took your duffle coat off. '
Absolute Gold!!!!!!!!!
Paul Johnson
75 Posted 16/04/2012 at 06:17:13
75 Posted 16/04/2012 at 06:17:13
Jason I take serious offence at the bottling factory remark. I work for Guinness and we have never gone out with the mindset that it is ok not to win.
Richard Dodd
76 Posted 16/04/2012 at 08:13:12
76 Posted 16/04/2012 at 08:13:12
Considered realism will show that Moyes has overachieved in his ten years at the helm.
He has kept Everton in mid-table and,in so doing,has kept Blue Bill at the helm.
It may well be said that in so doing he has rendered all of us a disservice but were he to move on,would you honestly trust Kenwright to make a credible choice of his successor?
Round and Neville are already installed as outright favourites for the job-and as ever cost will dictate.
Whilst our finances are in the state they are,we could never have a better manager than David Moyes,believe me!
He has kept Everton in mid-table and,in so doing,has kept Blue Bill at the helm.
It may well be said that in so doing he has rendered all of us a disservice but were he to move on,would you honestly trust Kenwright to make a credible choice of his successor?
Round and Neville are already installed as outright favourites for the job-and as ever cost will dictate.
Whilst our finances are in the state they are,we could never have a better manager than David Moyes,believe me!
Stephen Kenny
77 Posted 16/04/2012 at 08:47:28
77 Posted 16/04/2012 at 08:47:28
Neville hates everyone back for corners. At this point that's enough for me to say I'd take him over Moyes.
He's also played under the greatest of all time. There's no way he will be a moyes clone. He's a very limited player who's dragged himself to the top of his profession through will power alone.
Someone talked about Moyes choosing Cambridge over Arsenal before the game, can you imagine Neville doing that?
That said, I'd love Martinez to come to us. Rodgers has admitted most of the plaudits coming his way are down the the players, squad and ethos Martinez left him with.
Even when they were on a terrible run he never mentioned money, his best players being sold, the economy, the pitch or his players. The man's got bags of character and the skill to coach to go with it.
Wigan aren't the best side and they are at a straight disadvantage on their pitch for half their games. Despite everything he's kept them in this league and playing football. I think he will do something special in the game and I'd love it to be with us.
He's also played under the greatest of all time. There's no way he will be a moyes clone. He's a very limited player who's dragged himself to the top of his profession through will power alone.
Someone talked about Moyes choosing Cambridge over Arsenal before the game, can you imagine Neville doing that?
That said, I'd love Martinez to come to us. Rodgers has admitted most of the plaudits coming his way are down the the players, squad and ethos Martinez left him with.
Even when they were on a terrible run he never mentioned money, his best players being sold, the economy, the pitch or his players. The man's got bags of character and the skill to coach to go with it.
Wigan aren't the best side and they are at a straight disadvantage on their pitch for half their games. Despite everything he's kept them in this league and playing football. I think he will do something special in the game and I'd love it to be with us.
Jason Lam
79 Posted 16/04/2012 at 09:24:17
79 Posted 16/04/2012 at 09:24:17
Sorry Paul for the offense hope you can see the pun intended.
Richard Dodd
80 Posted 16/04/2012 at 09:39:15
80 Posted 16/04/2012 at 09:39:15
Stephen,if,as Hansen is suggesting in the Telegraph today,Davey does move on,I`d willingly settle for Martinez.
There,I`ve agreed with you,for once!
There,I`ve agreed with you,for once!
James Morgan
81 Posted 16/04/2012 at 10:07:51
81 Posted 16/04/2012 at 10:07:51
Moyes hasn't really had much money, agreed, but he's had that other precious commodity what most other managers don't get... TIME! And what has he won? Nowt!
Managers come and go just like players and those who think Everton Football Club would suddenly implode should the great Moyes leave are extremely naive.
Sure, we could get a new manager and slip rapidly down the league and become perennial relegation scrappers. On the other hand we could get a positive, bright attacking manager and actually start to contend for a top 5 spot again. Hell, we might even win at Anfield, Old Trafford, The Emirates or Stamford Bridge!
Football is a game of chances and I'd be happy to take one on a new manager with fresh ideas. A German one would be nice, they tend to have bottle!
Managers come and go just like players and those who think Everton Football Club would suddenly implode should the great Moyes leave are extremely naive.
Sure, we could get a new manager and slip rapidly down the league and become perennial relegation scrappers. On the other hand we could get a positive, bright attacking manager and actually start to contend for a top 5 spot again. Hell, we might even win at Anfield, Old Trafford, The Emirates or Stamford Bridge!
Football is a game of chances and I'd be happy to take one on a new manager with fresh ideas. A German one would be nice, they tend to have bottle!
Stephen Kenny
82 Posted 16/04/2012 at 13:35:32
82 Posted 16/04/2012 at 13:35:32
Richard,
Me and you being of the same opinion is oddly un-nerving.
I'm going to have a think if I've missed something shady so I can change my mind about Martinez.
BTW, what is it about Moyes that has you thinking we'd sink if he weren't here?
Me and you being of the same opinion is oddly un-nerving.
I'm going to have a think if I've missed something shady so I can change my mind about Martinez.
BTW, what is it about Moyes that has you thinking we'd sink if he weren't here?
Jim Knightley
83 Posted 16/04/2012 at 13:59:53
83 Posted 16/04/2012 at 13:59:53
James and Colin... I believe Swansea are being found out because teams are clearly changing the way they play against them. Next season Swansea will not be a suprise package; everyone will know they keep the ball incredibly but lack cutting edge. We played against them in a certain way and won as did Newcastle recently. Teams will adapt and Swansea will win a lot less next season. They will also lose SigurĂ°sson come the end of the season, who has been by some way their best attacking player (and one the very best in this league) since January.
Colin...how reductive is it to assume attacking football is successful based on Barca. How did Blackpool do btw? or Reading? or is it better to ignore those because it doesn't suit the argument. The Premierleague has consistently proved that over time, attacking football is successful for the top teams with money, but the lower teams falter.
With regards to 'anti-football'...you must be joking if you think Greece are the only success. 1994 World Cup? The most unexciting Brazil team won with anti-football. Mourinho consistently has overachieved with a pragmatic style, often using 'anti-football' for success. The Arsenal of old? Really Colin... really? Most of the most innane comments I have read on here.
Colin...how reductive is it to assume attacking football is successful based on Barca. How did Blackpool do btw? or Reading? or is it better to ignore those because it doesn't suit the argument. The Premierleague has consistently proved that over time, attacking football is successful for the top teams with money, but the lower teams falter.
With regards to 'anti-football'...you must be joking if you think Greece are the only success. 1994 World Cup? The most unexciting Brazil team won with anti-football. Mourinho consistently has overachieved with a pragmatic style, often using 'anti-football' for success. The Arsenal of old? Really Colin... really? Most of the most innane comments I have read on here.
Brian Waring
84 Posted 16/04/2012 at 14:21:34
84 Posted 16/04/2012 at 14:21:34
Jim, the difference between us and Blackpool and Reading, we have one of the best back four defensively in the Prem, something them teams never had.
Gary Mortimer
85 Posted 16/04/2012 at 15:37:59
85 Posted 16/04/2012 at 15:37:59
I would like to challenge the myth that if we try and win a match against the "Sky 4", we will end up getting hammered.
Let's face it, parking the bus and trying to "nick 1" has not brought us many victories. See Lee Smith's post on the McNulty thread. Our record against the Sky 4 in Moyes' 10 year tenure is:-
In all competitions, Home and Away :
P 97 W 12 D 26 L59
When he came he was a breath of fresh air, but I for one am fed up of his negative, defensive, defeatist and dour attitude.
We had a chance on Saturday. Liverpool were on the ropes, but by trying to "see it out", he set the tone for the weakest and limpest second half display I have witnessed for many a year. We have some good players, who are shackled with park the bus tactics and the absence of any pace or flair meant we had no outlet and gave possession away every time we got it. Yes some players failed to turn up (Cahill, Osman, Gauye, Baines & Drenthe!!!!) but there was no fight or pride in the shirt and that should start from the manager. We blew it again.
Let's face it, parking the bus and trying to "nick 1" has not brought us many victories. See Lee Smith's post on the McNulty thread. Our record against the Sky 4 in Moyes' 10 year tenure is:-
In all competitions, Home and Away :
P 97 W 12 D 26 L59
When he came he was a breath of fresh air, but I for one am fed up of his negative, defensive, defeatist and dour attitude.
We had a chance on Saturday. Liverpool were on the ropes, but by trying to "see it out", he set the tone for the weakest and limpest second half display I have witnessed for many a year. We have some good players, who are shackled with park the bus tactics and the absence of any pace or flair meant we had no outlet and gave possession away every time we got it. Yes some players failed to turn up (Cahill, Osman, Gauye, Baines & Drenthe!!!!) but there was no fight or pride in the shirt and that should start from the manager. We blew it again.
Phil Bellis
86 Posted 17/04/2012 at 09:15:49
86 Posted 17/04/2012 at 09:15:49
"...Also, no manager could repeat what Clough did now. It is not possible, the game is too different..."
Disagree - imagination, tactical ability, player-motivation, innovation, intelligence and a winning mentality; Clough had all of those abilities, still relevant today, and would have adapted to the faster pace
Given the above, without using the word money, how is the game, especially playing the game "too different"?
Disagree - imagination, tactical ability, player-motivation, innovation, intelligence and a winning mentality; Clough had all of those abilities, still relevant today, and would have adapted to the faster pace
Given the above, without using the word money, how is the game, especially playing the game "too different"?
Christopher Timmins
87 Posted 17/04/2012 at 14:24:35
87 Posted 17/04/2012 at 14:24:35
Martinez for me, we were once known as the school of science and he is the man to bring those days back!
At the moment it's a grind at best. Going back to Saturday, we could hardly put 2 passes together.
At the moment it's a grind at best. Going back to Saturday, we could hardly put 2 passes together.
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1 Posted 15/04/2012 at 18:15:15