All About The Money?| ToffeeWeb

Tom Winek
1 Posted 14/05/2012 at 20:09:13

You'll be fun to be around this summer!

Thing is, Tony, to improve, we needed to spend in January and those acquisitions were only made possible because we sold in the first place.

Bang on about it all you like but you speak to any non-Evertonian and they'll tell you we've had a good season and Moyes again has enhanced his reputation in the game.

Neal King
2 Posted 14/05/2012 at 20:17:39

Newcastle doing so well for me also showed that with a positive mindset we could do much better than we did.

I believe we have a very good first 11 and for us to progress any further with the players we have we need a manager with a football ethos, David Moyes is not and never will be one of those.

Great post Tony and i agree with everything you say

Ryan Holroyd
3 Posted 14/05/2012 at 20:23:23

This article makes no sense. You say, money? Who needs it, then quote the £15M worth of players who've made us better.

Personally I don't ask for billions of pounds, just £10 million a season net would be nice. To give us a fighting chance.

Will Green
4 Posted 14/05/2012 at 20:23:39

I believe the great form we have produced recently is down to Moyes and he should be given credit for it. But he must also take responsibility for the worst football played in decades at the begining of the season, and the lastest run of form shows me it was Moyes and not the players who was to blame for it. I only hope he has learned a lesson and starts with a positive attitude next season.

Gary Creaney
5 Posted 14/05/2012 at 20:24:47

To try and summarise:

1) The talk of finishing above Liverpool is so rife because despite losing to them 3 times, it is widely regarded that, over a 38-game season, better teams finish above lesser teams... therefore I am happy to say we are better. I won't be shouting it from the rooftops but I know it in my own mind.

2) We certainly don't need millions to play attacking positive football.

3) We certainly do need millions to win a league or to regularly compete for/in the Champions League. Man City, having spent multi-millions, won the league on goal difference with the last kick of the ball.

Will Green
6 Posted 14/05/2012 at 20:30:44

Slip some Prozac in his porridge for next season.

Dave Wilson
7 Posted 14/05/2012 at 19:59:20

Don't think I`ve ever heard anyone say you need millions and millions to play good football, but you do have to sign SOMEONE when you have been selling your best players for years; unfortunately we didn't.

The club finally gives the manager a small percentage of the proceeds of selling our better players and ? worra ya know ? he spends very wisely indeed; confidence rises and we get free-flowing football.

NOW! He's blowing to fuck your claims that he's a one-trick pony who can't change... OR: You were wrong all along and it IS about having quality players.

Which is it to be?

Stephen Kenny
8 Posted 14/05/2012 at 20:35:27

I haven't seen anyone shouting about getting above them. It means nothing to me at all.

The 'you need money to play football' argument will never stand up as long as sides like Swansea and Wigan are holding their own in this division.

To challenge for trophies you probably need a bit of money but the benefit of having Moyes is that you get more player for your £££.

Clearly he's going nowhere and he seems to have accepted he's got to wheel and deal if he wants to sign players. I think this January has shown him what a few new faces can bring to a group.

A much worse Newcastle side has challenged for the 4th CL spot all season so to say it can't be done is daft.

What will need for that to happen is a good start and a lot of luck with injuries to key players.

Joe McMahon
9 Posted 14/05/2012 at 20:42:50

It's a real pisser, City have ben the jammiest bastards in football history, with the Commenwealth Stadium and Manchester having a major airport (what was needed for Etihad Airways). So in comes the money for them. Seems a long time ago from Peter Swales, The Kippax, Platt Lane doesn't it?

From rags to riches and they didn't earn it like Man Utd have done with many years of success. All we want is to keep what we have and just £20 million to strengthen (that's far less than one Man City signing).

For the first time I'm actually believing Moyes is doing pretty good at managing this antiquated club of ours. But he needs to address the negative tactics (ceratinly at home), sell when the time is right, Cahill & Jaqs and threaten Kenwright and shame him publicly about the shambles the club is run.

I look at the foootage of the City fans going mental at Aguero's last gasp winner, and I just couldn't help but think wouldn't it be nice!

Denis Richardson
10 Posted 14/05/2012 at 20:35:49

This is going to put the cat amongst the pigeons.... how many posts before the the phrase 'net spend' rears its ugly head?

Nick Entwistle
11 Posted 14/05/2012 at 20:33:32

You know its a rant when there's no paragraphs... but what a contradictory piece of bollocks.

As an aside, the lack of money argument is more often than not used to counter the shouts that Moyes has not brought success, or rather a trophy.
The argument to say you don't need money to play good football is what then follows on from that.

As for Tony's point. If we could spend the £12-13m you quote each season, then... then what's your point? That's the money we talk about. Because of that spending in January we've started to play. Why is there a question mark in your title?

Our last first team purchases prior to January were in the summer window of 2009 when Bily, Distin, Heitinga and Neil arrived off the back of the Lescott fee.
That's four transfer windows with only a Gueye, Beckford and a Vellios to show for ourselves. And you want to dismiss our good play due to a neither here nor there pittance of £13m?

Only you've said we said billions, when all we wanted was something to help... and when we do finally have that, Moyes can get us playing. Go figure.

You know, its only 4 times in the last 50 something years we've finished ahead of Liverpool. It shouldn't be that few, but because it is, its not an 'incredible feat', but an enjoyable one that we can and do get excited over.

So not only do we top the reds, The Marsh shoots himself in the foot to round off the season... see you all in August.

Barry Rathbone
12 Posted 14/05/2012 at 20:45:51

Agree with it all, the cat is out the bag Swansea, Norwich and lesser extent Newcastle also prove it.

Problem is we've had this cabal of ex pros, journos and managers all protecting each other and the cash cow that is the EPL for years now, say a lie enough and it becomes fact.

To criticise puts you in danger of being out the game, it's always been a fallacy that it's just money ? take a look at the 100-million-pound wastrels across the park.

Moyes even seems buoyed by it himself acting all hard "Why celebrate 7th", "Build around Jelavic" etc (I think he's bought himself a leather jacket and a Harley meself).

We shall see.

Dick Brody
13 Posted 14/05/2012 at 20:57:14

I rarely read Tony Marsh comments. Constructive critism is fine but continually finding the negative in every situation is not cool.

Tony is in danger of becoming some obessesed fan with a major chip on his shoulder.

I cannot take him seriously on any level because he always takes the negative. His opinion is made worthless if he doesn't look at things objectively.

Paul David
14 Posted 14/05/2012 at 20:58:54

I want to finish above Liverpool every season but finishing 4 points above the worst Liverpool side in 50 years isnt much to shout about (even without 3 derby defeats).

It doesn't matter how much better the team looks since the new signings, we still should have been playing the likes of QPR and Stoke off the park at home.

Mark Stone
15 Posted 14/05/2012 at 21:06:34

Don't think I've ever seen anyone argue that you need billions to play attractive football. Can you provide links to those posts, Tony?

Sam Hoare
16 Posted 14/05/2012 at 21:11:19

Strange article. If anything it seems to agree that money was what was needed to turn around the teams fortunes.

Fact is that Moyes has proved to the doubters that when given a little bit of money to freshen up a stale team that he can spend it wisely and turn out an attacking team capable of mixing it at the top.

Paul David
17 Posted 14/05/2012 at 21:17:53

I see McLeish has been sacked, would Moyes go if he was offered transfer funds?

Terry Smith
18 Posted 14/05/2012 at 21:17:20

I think we need to concentrate on 2 wingers & 1 forward. Obvoiusly Pienaar is a must and can also play in the middle if needed. I can't see Donovan sign for a season or two but would love to see us get Johnson from City on loan to play on the right.

As for a striker, someone like Doyle from Wolves could be a clever signing and ideal partner for Jelavic. Someone who will do what Straq does but with more quality and keep our main man in the box. I'd like to think that shouldn't go over the £10m mark. Drenthe's wages could help too...

Mark Stone
19 Posted 14/05/2012 at 21:16:23

Barry, re: those scoundrels across the park. Nobody has ever suggested that money is a guarantee of success - but it is a prerequisite. There is a world of difference.

20 Posted 14/05/2012 at 21:05:40

Sad thing is that it's massively about money. Pienaar and Arteta left because we couldn't afford to keep them. Our footy went shit. We got Pienaar back and our footy got better. If we can't keep him then we'll be shit again.

Talking about Swansea & Newcastle proving that you can do things without money is rubbish. Swansea won't be able to keep their best players once they aren't surprises any more.

He does need to sort out the inferiority complex we've got against the Kopites tho.

Jamie Barlow
21 Posted 14/05/2012 at 21:30:01

Paul, to be fair, we did play QPR off the pitch and were the better team against Stoke.

The difference is, we've got a top striker now instead of Beckford or Velios and someone who can play good football in Pienaar. Plus the added bit of confidence and a big kick up the arse that new additions give the squad.

Wasn't Gibson half a million?

David Hallwood
22 Posted 14/05/2012 at 21:30:31

All About The Money? Well frankly yes it is, Our Tony has posted the day after Citteh won their first title since 1968, and not so very long ago were in the third tier of football. So how did they get from Third Division (let's get old fashioned here) to EPL Champs? Was it because they had a canny manager who instilled free flowing football or is it because they can go out and buy who they want when they want because they've got money to burn?

And then there's Chelsea, yet another team who's last title was in the 1950s and they went through a period where they were winning everything; now according to our Tony this has very little to do with the Russian crook's money, but more to do with 'how you play the game'.

As Gary Lineker put it on MotD, the best teams have the best players ?simples. Now, if we could possibly spend £10-15 million this summer, we may have a pop at CL or one of the cups, but how do you compete with Citteh? If Jelavic is out, who replaces him? Whereas if Aguero is out, they can call on Tevez, Ballotelli, Dzeko, and players like Adam Johnson can't get a look in despite being full England internationals.

You betcha it's all about money ? sad but true.

David Hallwood
23 Posted 14/05/2012 at 21:45:22

bast trams?? serious typo should read best teams

Barry Rathbone
24 Posted 14/05/2012 at 21:37:41

Mark 053

Indeed.

But the OP is exposing the fallacy of saying style and method of play is dictated entirely by finance.

It never has been and never will be.

Kevin Tully
25 Posted 14/05/2012 at 21:42:08

You can't argue that the first half of this season was incredibly dire. Moyes himself said we were awful to watch.

Part of his job is to move players on and refresh the team when things are stale. He kept players like Bily for too long - he clearly didn't fancy him, but kept £9m on the bench for two and a half years.

You have to admit 7th was an excellent finish, but I wish Moyes would stop contradicting himself, one minute a top ten finish is an achievement, the next he says 7th is not good enough for a club like Everton.

If we sign Pienaar, there are no excuses for a poor start next season.

If this board cannot conclude that deal, they should all walk.

Drew O'Neall
26 Posted 14/05/2012 at 21:51:21

Injuries, injuries, injuries..

This season we haven't had the injuries we've had in previous years.. As Neal 24 said we have a decent first 11 and when we've had a major injury to Jags, Yakubu or Arteta in previous years we have been seriously weakened.

Having said that we've consistently played well in the second half of the season but the point remains that if we lost Baines, Jelavic, Fellaini or even Gibson (in addition to losing the innevitable transfer sacrificial lamb) we will be back to hoofball or worse.

Mark Stone
27 Posted 14/05/2012 at 22:01:00

Barry, what's that got to do with comment about the shite then?

ps as I said before, I don't think many have said that finances dictate style of play. At the opposite end of the spectrum you've got Jose Mourinho after all. No, I think the argument has always been that finances are required for success.

Barry Rathbone
28 Posted 14/05/2012 at 22:07:36

Mark

I would have thought the RS below us after spending in excess of 100 million is self explanatory.

Joe Aylward
29 Posted 14/05/2012 at 23:27:21

Sorry Tony. I tried to read this but kept on thinking about you vicariously living through the characters lives in the latest episode of Coronation Street and I just kept on giggling...

Dan Brierley
30 Posted 14/05/2012 at 23:42:25

"Moyes is a fucking shithouse!! We have surrendered to the red shite again!! We are the laughing stock!!"

Everton finish above Liverpool for only the 2nd time in the Premier League:

"Trivial matter, it's no achievement worth recognising."

Derek Thomas
31 Posted 15/05/2012 at 00:33:04

In Marsh terms, this is as opimistic as he can get. Strip away the blue specs, no excuses: this is how the season went.

Yet again, another ride on my own personal hobby horse about Moyes being the ultimate % man, in his case his continued 50%. seasons. (But hey, what is ToffeeWeb if it isn't a hacking track for ALL our hobby horses?) but I digress....

First Half ? SHITE; anybody going to try to say different?

Second Half ? Better, potentially; it could have been very good, but spoiled by 3 derby defeats.

That's it ? nutshell.

It seems to me that there is a tendancy among the more Moyes inclined to mention, in general terms, when things go poorly on the field, "Well what can you do? ... lack of money, net spend, out of his hands ... of which one is tied behind his back, how can he be expected to hold the knife he has to take to the gunfight," blah etc yada.

When things go better on the field, we are punching above our weight.

We sold the Russian waster and got Jelly and added a few (very good loanees).

This proves to me that money is not the be-all and end-all... once the teams crosses the white line, it's a mental thing. If you go out thinking "We WILL lose, whatever we do, so let's try to keep it as low as we can," you get 2-0 at City and 6 home defeats

Or you can go out and say "We didn't cost much but we CAN play" and ask say Man U the footballing equivalent of... do ya feel lucky.

Moyes has 3 settings, KITAP1... Uber KITAP1... and every so often his Mr Hyde pops out and we play footy... quite well.

So, if I do want Moyes out, not withstanding a) be careful what you wish for, and b) who will replace him, who won't automatically get us relegated, (a nailed-on, if somewhat unprovable, cert for some).

Bearing in mind our net spend (not much), the money or lack of it does not mean you can't go out have a go.

Money MAY talk... but actions (on the field) speak louder than words

Who?? Mr Hyde, that's who.

Martin Mason
32 Posted 15/05/2012 at 03:47:50

I don't believe anybody has ever said that you need money to play good football, only that you need money to provide the strength and depth of squad required to challenge for cups or CL places, and I believe that is true.

What you need to play good football is good players and a team that is comfortable in playing with each other. In the first half of this season we were diabolical but buying Jelavic and Gibson and playing Heitinga in his best position strengthened the spine of the team and, with the catalyst of Donovan's short spell and Pienaar's return, we have become a formidable side that, free of injuries, could challenge for a CL place; with a Donovan and another good forward we would have a good chance of getting one.

We have played fantastic football at times and I believe that, for all of Moyes's faults, he has really produced the goods since the turn of the year. We aren't there yet and our lack of money may mean that we can never get there but at least we have been given something to be proud of.

I'll never get over the capitulation at Anfield and the poor showing at Wembley was very disappointing but overall I'll accept the second half of the season in lieu and the amazing turnaround in how we've played. In Jelavic, Baines, Heitinga and Fellaini we have genuine class and in Gibson a gem who whilst not out of the top drawer himself has slotted in well and who allows the rest of the team to perform.

I'm sorry that Tony is still negative at a time like this, I'm not sure what the Club has to do to satisfy people with Tony's mindset.

Jim Harrison
33 Posted 15/05/2012 at 04:18:22

With both Moyes in/out sides represented in this thread, just wanted to point out that even Tony concedes that Moyes did well to turn it around. I think what has been proved again this season is that when he actually gets the funds, he spends them well. He did recognize the issues on the pitch and changed it when he could.

It would be nice to see him given the funds of let's say Stoke, and see what he is capable of then. It is true you dont need billions to play attractive football, but to succeed in getting higher up the table it would be welcomed. Newcastle were able to rebuild as they had significant investment generated from transfers. Cisse cost more than Jelavic.

Anto Byrne
34 Posted 15/05/2012 at 06:12:49

Citeh have spent in excess of £750 million on players in the last 3-4 years and the reward for this is an FA Cup and now the Premier League. Liverpool spent up big so to say that money does not count is being naieve.

It's taken Moyes 10 years on a shoestring budget to build this team that can compete albeit for half a season. It's a lack of depth that is the issue and of course we have some aging players that are quite frankly past their use-by date.

Give David Moyes some money, keep this player group together and add some quality and then perhaps we can push on for honours next time around.

Martin Mason
35 Posted 15/05/2012 at 09:08:05

The disturbing question now is where does the money come from for any buy this summer? A decent buy would help raise hopes for next season but it could be a long dissapointing summer.

Matt Traynor
36 Posted 15/05/2012 at 09:20:15

Anto #103, precisely who is supposed to give that money for players? From what I can work out, two of the major shareholders seem to be in the £5-10m personal wealth bracket, and the other has no interest in EFC, just in a retail-led ground move.

Kim Jong Bill claimed years ago he wasn't wealthy enough to carry the club anymore, so he would find a buyer who could. That's fair enough - why should anyone throw their life's earnings at a load of over-paid primadonas to spunk on fancy cars and not-so-fancy hookers?

So until the Dear Leader sells up to someone who will pay the alleged personal debts on the club, we seem stuck in limbo.

Here's a prediction, this summer we'll struggle to sign anyone of note. Pienaar may be signed and hailed as the returning saviour, but unless there's a significant exit generating funds, or some outside intervention, expect more of the same at Groundhog Goodison.

Jeremy Benson
37 Posted 15/05/2012 at 09:34:53

Newcastle did well because they had a positive attitude? I don't suppose getting a £35 million windfall which allowed strengthening had anything to do with it...

Sam Hoare
38 Posted 15/05/2012 at 09:50:23

I would love to see what this team could do if somehow the board could commit to Moyes not having to sell any players and being given 15-20m to spend every summer for 3 years.

That to be fair would put us somewhere between Stoke and Spurs in terms of resources but i reckon Moyes would have us really pushing the top 4 and a cup in the cabinet.

Lee Courtliff
39 Posted 15/05/2012 at 10:47:51

Dick Brody - Agree.

Jimmy Sørheim
40 Posted 15/05/2012 at 10:44:14

Yes, it is a rant, but Marsh is allowed to.

1.The FA cup should have been ours, looking at our form it is crystal clear that when it matters most Moyes ALWAYS fucks up.

2. The 3 ugly losses against Liverpool in one season is THE WORST of all.
There is no pride in finishing 7th after that.

I can not remember losing 3 times in a row against the red shites as long as I have supported Everton, and the fact that we now have lost 3 in a row has put a foul taste in my mouth.
The fact that so many has forgotten this goes to support Marsh`s rant

3.Moyes was clueless in the first half of the season.
Every single season he takes half a season to wake up and start doing the right moves and pick the right first eleven.
He chooses players out of form and sticks by them, one name is Tim Cahill, and he has had the worst ever season for us.
Moyes needs to start playing youngsters like Barkley and Vellios, because players such as Neville and Cahill are past their best.

4..Money.
Moyes has had the option of selling, but instead he has chosen to stick with thew same bunch of players and then complain that he has no money.

In January he was FORCED into selling, and he sold Bily and brought in Gibson and Jelavic.
Perhaps this is a lesson for Moyes, sell one or two of your less wanted players for the right fee and then spend wisely.
It certainly worked out fine in January.

In fact the timing was perfect, Rangers was bust and Gibson had had enough and Ferguson wanted to sell on.
This January tranfer window worked out well for us, but come summer then we might not be so lucky.
It all depends on Moyes, and if he sells to buy.

"Next season" is our most loving words as everything will be better next season.
Problem is after 10 years with the same manager the magic is gone.

Mark Stone
41 Posted 15/05/2012 at 11:39:11

Newcastle did well because ...

Cisse
Ba
Ben Arfa

Dave Wilson
42 Posted 15/05/2012 at 11:04:46

"Every so often we play footy quite well"

QUITE WELL ???

It's amazing how grudging the people who labled Moyes a "dour, tactically naive, one-trick pony" are being in their recognition of our recent performances and even more amazing that people are comparing the type of football we have been playing to the "let's knock it about in our own half" garbage played by Swansea.

The Swansea crowd were applauding Evertons play a few weeks ago, it was sooooo superior to their game.

We scored four in three games running recently, Pienaar, Baines, have at times been fucken dazzling! Players like Fellaini (in the Cahill role) Gibson, Osman and Jelavic have all knocked it around for fun.

We are NOT playing the Swansea "come and get it" game we are carving teams open. NO team in the Prem has played better football than us.

Moan about the semis if you feel the need to dwell on it, but FFS recognise what we are seeing here.

I have waited over 25 years to say this, but performances like Saturdays are ? dare I say it ? of the highest scientific order.

Paul David
43 Posted 15/05/2012 at 11:50:54

Dave we are playing well but just like your having a go at people for playing it down because they dont want to give Moyes credit,your going over the top in your praise.

Dave Wilson
44 Posted 15/05/2012 at 12:01:00

Paul I dont think I have gone over the top.

I have said before that we were without doubt the worse team to watch in the entire division before January.

I call it as I see it - criticism and praise where its due etc . .

If another team has played better football than us over the past few months, they have done it when I wasnt looking

Paul David
45 Posted 15/05/2012 at 12:12:23

Dave

Whether we're playing the best football in the league is debatable but we are definitely playing good stuff.

It was the 25 years comment that made me think your going over the top,if I got it wrong then fair enough but it seemed to me you think this this the best we've played in 25 years.

Jimmy Sørheim
46 Posted 15/05/2012 at 12:16:26

Yes, you are over the top.
If we are the best playing team as you say then why the hell did we lose at anfield and why did we lose the semi final.

You can claim what you want but you can not just assume that people will go along just because you say so.

Losing 3 times in one season against the red shite is abysmal, there is nothing to be proud of for that, and so finishing 7th does little to help that fact.
After all we are Everton, the derby is the most important game in our whole season and we have lost 3 of them.

Moyes should hang his head in shame for that!

Daniel A Johnson
47 Posted 15/05/2012 at 12:26:46

Sorry but to call newcastle an inferior team to us is laughable.

Cabaye, Cisse, Ba, Williamson, Krull, Collocini, Ben Arfa etc are all player who could walk straight into our first team.

They are and have been a class act all season, they purchased wisely with well resercahed scouting, and have a manager who is confident and always goes for a win.

They were just running on empty in that game on sunday.

Tony J Williams
48 Posted 15/05/2012 at 12:35:02

Jimmy, we lost at Anfield the exact same reason Chelski lost at Anfield, we put out a side without our best players. It's not rocket science.

Marshy, you say it's not about the money, yet only when we bought better players did we start playing better football.

Is it a coincidence that after spending close to a billion pounds that Citteh are now Champions?

You say that it isn't a big thing finishing above the shite....you must have missed the thread after we drew with Wolves and how many were calling Moyes for everything because he messed up the chance to finish above them... not really consistent is it?

We finish above them, it means nothing... but I can guarantee that if they did finish above us there would be so many on here using it as a stick to bash him with....you can't have it both ways. [Cue prostitute jokes...]

Tony J Williams
49 Posted 15/05/2012 at 12:46:20

"They were just running on empty in that game on sunday" - Curbisley apologist ;-)

Steve Smith
50 Posted 15/05/2012 at 12:23:10

I absolutely agree with Dave Hallwood #057.
Just a couple of extra points, finishing above the shite is always good {would be nice if it was 1st and 2nd place} it's not a huge achievement but, it will be great for winding up my rs family members throughout the summer {they pretend they don't give a fuck, but their eyes tell a different truth}.
Moyes deserves some credit for turning things around but. I couldn't say I'd be disappointed if he left this summer, I've thought it's been time for a change for well over a year now, nothing that's happened between January and now has given me cause to change my mind.

Andy Crooks
51 Posted 15/05/2012 at 12:39:57

I believe that Moyes deserves praise overall on his transfer dealings. All managers make some howlers but Moyes was very shrewd in the last window and doubtless it had a serious impact on our improvement.

I see no reason why we shouldn't continue to play good football most of the time. Of course money makes a difference but I don't believe that lack of money alone explains our yearly poor starts.

We need to get the best value available and get the maximum from those players as often as possible. Can Moyes do that? I've doubted it for years but as it is unlikely that he's going anywhere then I hope that our end of season form is a sign of better things to come.

Steve Cotton
52 Posted 15/05/2012 at 12:38:15

we aint going to get a sugar daddy, we will be lucky not to lose one of our top players, however what most fans out there agree on is that if we keep this team together, get Pienaar back and 2 out of contract players that can do a job, then maybe we can turn a few heads next season..

the football up to January was dire but it didnt take much to turn us into one of the form teams since. if Drenthe had turned out not to be a nobhead and kept his place on the right side of the team then we would be one of the teams most feared next year...

perhaps Sky would have scheduled more of our matches too...

Andy Callen
53 Posted 15/05/2012 at 12:39:14

I don?t understand why finishing above the RS is not something to be happy about. Yes the 3 defeats hurt, especially the surrender at Anfield and the shambles of the 2nd half in the Cup.

In the 90s we rarely lost to them, despite the constant relegation battles. For many people then the fact that we took more points off the RS then they did us constituted as a successful season (while maintaining our PL status), that was how low expectations had got.

For me this season again offered so much yet delivered so little ? again as a team we failed to reach our full potential (why, that is for another thread) however finishing 4 points above a team that has spent in excess of £100 million is an achievement ? for me it just makes it all the better it?s that lot from across the park!

Overall was it a successful season? No, not for me, but sadly it was nothing more than I expected. NSNO

Derek Turnbull
54 Posted 15/05/2012 at 13:18:47

Anyone who uses the word 'smalltime' should be banned from all things Everton.

How can I take an article seriously when you use that word?

Paul David
55 Posted 15/05/2012 at 13:16:53

Andy

It's always good to finish above Liverpool, it's just that we're not in a position to sing and shout about it.

Blue nose: "Ha, we finished above you!"

Red neck: "So what? We twatted you 3 times and won a cup."

Robbie Muldoon
56 Posted 15/05/2012 at 13:18:43

Season ups: Beating Sunderland in the replay. Scoring 4 at Old Trafford. Beating Chelsea at home. Jelavic. End of season finish. Barkley's breakthrough. Heitenga establishing himself. Signing Nike kit deal. Beating Man City at home.

Season downs: Getting beat by Liverpool at Goodison. That Anfield derby. The semi final capitulation. James McFadden. The Stoke home game. Going two consecutive matches without a shot on target. The start of the season. The lies about the sale of Arteta. The lies about potential investors. Genuinely finding it hard to watch us play until after Christmas.

Off the top of my head. Very mixed season.

Robbie Muldoon
57 Posted 15/05/2012 at 13:23:54

Haven't added finishing above Liverpool there, shows how much that really mattered this season. It's good to have done so but we can't even use it against them when they beat us on every occasion and especially when it mattered, at Wembley.

Martin Mason
58 Posted 15/05/2012 at 13:18:36

To be fair to Moyes, I judge him based on where we are now not on how we played for the first half of the season. Whatever was wrong he solved it and he can't do more than that. What will be very sad though is if we can't buy Pienaar back or extend his loan next season then we will be much weaker for it.

Matt Traynor
59 Posted 15/05/2012 at 13:38:06

Derek #172, so how would you describe a board lacking the resources to take the club forward, and an inability to get a new owner at their asking price? A board that has failed to deliver the increase in commercial income that expanded overseas coverage offers (even though clubs we would deem smaller than us have)? A board that has overseen the sale of numerous assets and an increasing amount of debt, depending on a manager to make a silk purse out of a sows ear whilst basking in the relative glory of their vanity asset?

Sounds pretty small-time to me. Our fans deserve better.

Stephen Kenny
60 Posted 15/05/2012 at 13:44:27

"It's amazing how grudging the people who labled Moyes a "dour, tactically naive, one-trick pony" are being in their recognition of our recent performances and even more amazing that people are comparing the type of football we have been playing to the "let's knock it about in our own half" garbage played by Swansea."

It's equally amazing how some are willing to belittle the fantastic achievements of others in an attempt to heighten the reputation of their hero.

Garbage? Really???

Open your eyes.

Jay Harris
61 Posted 15/05/2012 at 13:11:34

Of course it is all about the money.

The BEST players have skill and a WINNING mentality as well as supreme confidence.

BUT the best players cost a fortune in wages and transfer fees.

The only way you can compete with that is superb team spirit and really hard work.

However you cannot keep that work rate up over a whole season hence some teams run out of steam (Swansea and Norwich are prime examples) and there are now too many "rich" clubs to compete against.

A 'rich" club may have a bad season

There is no longer 1 moneyed club there are 3 or 4.

Liverpool have spent over £200 million on players.

Chelsea have the highest wage bill in the Prem.

City and United have spent mega and some of the players cant even get a game (Berbatov, Ashley Young, Adam Johnson, Milner etc.)

Spurs and Arsenal have also spent significant amounts of money just to hang on to the coat tails.

The other point I would like to mention is referees' decisions. It is no coincidence that referees appear biased towards the powerful clubs, either by intimidation or dare I say corruption, but these decisions also contribute to points gained.

Jim Knightley
62 Posted 15/05/2012 at 13:40:13

Seriously...anyone who says football is not about money is mad...literally. Look at the league...look at the top six...they have all been big spenders. Even Newcastle, who for some reason a few of you seem to have no knowledge about, spent money. Cabaye and Tiote cost money...Cisse cost 10million. Santon cost almost five million, and even Ba, although free, would have cost some money. Newcastle have spent, and spent very well, but they have been able to spend. We have not.

Jimmy, I'm fast finding your posts the worse of any on this forum. All we generally hear is shit about Drenthe, and now there is typical anti-Moyes bias. The loss in the Semi mattered...because it stopped us from getting to the final. It hurt more because it was Liverpool against whom we lost. We shouldn't have sat back, but our defeat came as a direct result of one of the worst errors of the season, and a stupid foul from Coleman. We were also without our most influential player in Pienarr. But the league defeats do not matter. I don't care about all this pride crap...we finished above Liverpool. ABOVE. The league is about where we finish isn't it? Do you think Arsenal would have taken two wins to finish below Spurs? I cannot think of any team, who would rather they won two derby matches, and finish below the team they beat. It is bizzare. The next team in the league, were 8 points above us, and so consequently, the Derbies have made no difference to our final placing. If I were Liverpool fans, I would be ashamed. They have spent over 100 million more than us...consistently outspent us over the past 10 years, and have finished four points adrift from us in the league. I am proud, as an Everton fan, that we finished above them, and more importantly finished in seventh, only below teams with significantly better teams and squads.

Re. the dichotomy between the first and half of the seasons...I can't believe how we continually put such a simplistic spin on things. Firstly, every team has form issues. Some start well, some finish well. This is obvious from this season, and every season of the Premier league. But aside from the evidence of form...which is conveniently ignored...this season, the players we signed in January, were instrumental in our improvement. We desperately needed a creative player (our only other senior creative force being Osman) and Pienarr has been incredibly influential in pretty much every league success we've had. Likewise, we needed a scorer, and Jelavic has provided goals. Donovan provided the pace we've been crying out for on the right, as well as notable assists when he joined, and Gibson has been a crucial signing for the team and the improvement of Fellaini. We would NOT have improved without them! It is not some magic transformation, where Moyes has realised our football is all wrong, it is a combination of the players brought in, alongside the positive morale effects of actually signing someone. Over the last few summers, we've brought no one in. We've had to deal with the loss of key players, a lack of fresh impetus, and the continued erosion of our team. It is not suprising we started badly. If we start this season without Pienarr, or any other creative players, we will play badly again.

Dean Adams
63 Posted 15/05/2012 at 14:07:00

Jay Harris 182

"The other point I would like to mention is referees decisions. It is no coincidence that referres appear biased towards the powerful clubs either by intimidation or dare I say corruption but these decisions also contribute to points gained."

Exactly!! Poor reffing cost Bolton in their last game. The consequence for them was relegation. It is often said that these decisions even out over the season. Well, yes, for every bad decision one team gets, another has a good one. Not that these are correct decisions, just good or bad and the teams at the top, well they get most of the good (lucky) ones in their favour, whereas those at the bottom get most of the bad (unlucky) ones. Ying and yang!! Fair? Not usually.

Jeff Magee
64 Posted 15/05/2012 at 14:23:49

Can someone please square a particular circle for me? ? Dan Brierley (#085) touched on it ? losing (or should we now always call it ?surrendering? when posting on TW?) three times to Liverpool in a season is instant dismissal for DM but finishing above them is the league is insignificant ? how does that work?

What does beating us three times prove? Certainly not that they are better than us because ?the table never lies? ? oft quoted by redshite when they finish above us.

Also analyse the three meetings without the ?surrender goggles? on and you will remember that we were cheated out of any reasonable chance by the delightful buck-toothed racist and a naïve ref in the Goodison meeting. The second meeting we had our minds on other things (bit like Chelsea last week). And the third game ? the ?semi final surrender? was actually two teams both trying to out-do the other in how badly they could play, whether out of nerves or just the fact that they were/are both shite.

Semi-finals often are shite matches ? again oft-quoted: "It doesn?t matter how you play in a semi it?s getting to the final that matters." It was a shit game which neither team ?deserved? to win ? the shite won it because the £35M donkey who can?t hit a barn door was being held down by Fellaini which meant that he (the donkey) did not connect with his header as he had intended to and scored when he has proven all season that he is not very good at it.

Who other than redshite supporters and a few (many) self flagellists on TW will remember that they beat us three times? Answer = no-one but the table shows that we beat them by four points in the league and in answer to the two redshite colleagues who I have had the misfortune to have a meeting with a couple of days after each of the three derbies this year is that we gave them a six-point start and still beat them by four points ? their arrogant grins slipped a little and they had no answer; the City is ours!!

Taking this argument further, am I right in that if positions in the table are irrelevant (unless you're actually first) then it doesn?t matter whether you are 2nd or 17th as long as you stay in the Premier League ? so why did we get so upset when we did finish 17th a few seasons ago?

Also, say Man City had 'surrendered' three times to Manure this season but still ended up where they are now ? winning the Premier League on goal difference (not 4 clear points) and with thirty seconds to go... some might call it a little fortunately ? would the City fans be calling for the ?defeatist, boring etc etc twat? Mancini?s head? And classing the season as a failure?

If your answer to this is that they were fighting over 1st and 2nd place not 7th and 8th please refer to my question above about if it?s not 1st it may as well be 17th.

Jimmy Sørheim
65 Posted 15/05/2012 at 14:08:08

I guess there are different supporters, I prefer to win against our biggest rivals to maintain pride as a club. While others care more about finishing 7th.

Passion and pride to me is part of what Everton is as a club.
When we surrender 3 times against Liverpool that is simply shameful, no matter how you spin it.

The best part of my years supporting Everton was when Duncan Ferguson was crushing the red shites or at least knocking them down with his elbow.

That passion and pride seems to have faded away, both Moyes and most of the players have done a piss poor job when it matters most.

I do not care about finishing 7th, we have already been beaten 3 times in one season by them. I suppose if we got Europa League or Champions League then I could swallow losing 3 times in one season, but the fact is we have won NOTHING, 7th to 10th is all the same really, so I find that the 3 losses overshadow the 7th place with relative ease.

So to conclude; passion and pride with winning over Liverpool leaves ME more pleased then finishing between 7th and 10th but losing 3 times in one season against the red shites.

It is that simple!

Brian Harrison
66 Posted 15/05/2012 at 14:19:09

How anybody can suggest that money is not the major factor in teams being succesful is crazy. This argument has been proven by most of the posters on here, so no need to go over the same ground.

I have to say I feel really sorry for Moyes, he has had to watch a team he has started to build be wrecked nearly every other season. Starts with Rooney probably the best home grown player Everton has produced, then despite that setback produces a team that finishes 4th.

Then has a couple of seasons of stability and looks to be building a team to challenge for a top 4 place. Then loses Lescott just days before the season starts. Because of insufficient funds cant hold on to Pienaar.

Just before this season begins loses another crucial member of the team when Arteta goes. So how many times can this man to be asked to rebuild with no resources to replenish the players who have been sold. No wonder he started the season looking so downbeat, who wouldnt be given the hand he was dealt?

Before anyone suggests the £65,000 a week wages should have kept him happy, I think he is more driven by football than money. He has done a remarkable job here at Everton, I just wish he was able to be given the £15 million a season that would enable him to really challenge for the 4th place.

Dave Wilson
67 Posted 15/05/2012 at 14:09:21

If people want to hold Swansea up as some sort of example of entertaining football, then they should expect their claims to be challenged.

Only five teams scored less than the "entertainers" from Wales this season, yet half the league conceded more (an indication as to where their priorities lay ?)
Thats not "belittling a fantastic achievement"; that`s stating a fact.

If Everton played the sort of purposeless garbage Swansea churned out this season, the people who are holding them up as some sort of shining example would be the first to scream about it.

Knocking it around in your own half as opposed to "hoofing it" is commendable amongst the "happy to be here"s but it won't wash with fans who expect a little more.

I expect teams to assert a little more pressure higher up the park when playing the Swans next season (just like we did a few weeks ago) and I shall be having a hefty bet on their "fantastic achievement" amounting to no more than a one-season flirtation with top flight football.

Anyone who disagrees is perfectly entitled to bet the other way of course.

Jim Harrison
68 Posted 15/05/2012 at 14:25:53

Jim K, couldn't agree more,especially about Jimmy! Spouts all kinds of crap. The 3 derby losses suck, but at the end of the day the league table looks better for us than them. Winning the Carling Cup in exchange for £100million spent? Wow. And wasn't the Goodison derby the one where Rodwell got sent off for a good tackle?

By the time next season kicks off, this season's derby matches wont mean shit! The only thing that will count is where the team finished.

The only team to finish above us that could possibly be considered close in terms of squad strength was Newcastle. The rest have spent big, and will continue to. And you can bet that Mancini and Fergie won't be looking to pick up a Championship player and "bring him on" in the way Moyes has to. They might be looking at players like Baines, Fellaini and Heitinga and offering more than Moyes paid for them though.

As for early season form, do you think that the clubs below us would exchange our situation for theirs? Stoke, Norwich, Swansea et al were all sitting pretty early on, but burnt out. Hopefully this season will get going earlier, but it's end-of-season form that really counts (see Wigan and Citteh).

All said, the nature of this season's early performances was disgraceful. Only the coaches and players really know why, but I am grateful they managed to turn it around. Just look at Villa, their manager just lost it and nearly cost them top flight football.

Just as a footnote, did anyone notice that about 4 of the nominated goals of the season on BBC Match of the Day were against Everton? We really got the shitty end of the stick with some of those strikes.

Paul David
69 Posted 15/05/2012 at 14:34:11

Jeff

We finished the season 7th,if we had beaten Liverpool to 1st,4th or 5th it would have meant a lot more.

Lets look at the 3 derbies,at Goodison we were robbed of a fair chance but with Rodwell still on the pitch would that have guaranteed us a win.We will never know but recent history suggests not.

The Anfield derby,it astounds me how you can shrug this off as "we had our minds on others things" like it meant fuck all.Sacrificing a derby for the sake of a 6th round tie against Sunderland at home is disgusting and a sackable offence imo,I was ashamed of being a blue that night and I will never forgive Moyes for that.

Wembley,2 teams trying to out shit each other.Well is anyone surprised that Liverpool played that way considering their form this year and the fact they couldnt score.Us on the other hand were the form team full of confidence so whats our excuse for playing shit defensive tactics.

Believe me if we could swap seasons i'd take 3 derby wins and a cup in the bag ahead of finishing 7th.

James Martin
70 Posted 15/05/2012 at 14:53:21

Dave Wilson, spot on about Swansea, one of the most negative teams I saw at Goodison this year and did nothing against us in the away game either. Moyes's tactics against Rogers were so successful that everyone else who played them copied them apart from that clown Dalglish.

Swansea have ended up lower in the league than us because, when you play that way in the Premier League with those sort of players, you will get some glorious wins but a lot of bad losses. People will say that our players are better quality, and in the second half of the season they have been, and we have seen better goal-scoring football.

In the first half, however, trying to get Neville, Hibbert, Cahill, Jagielka to play one-touch passing football is disastrous. We had a strong defense so Moyes had little option other than to use it and try and grind some results. When he got some attacking options in January, he's used them far more effectively than Rogers has at Swansea.

Jeff Magee
71 Posted 15/05/2012 at 14:44:39

Jimmy 187 ? I hate losing to the redshite but (in my little mind) the fact that we are higher than them in the league means we are better than them (even with their 'big' Carling Cup win this year) bit like City are better than ManU.

Turning it around ? what would you be happy with? We beat them every time we play them but they still finish above us in the league? Would a Carling Cup win then make us better than them? What if they were anywhere between 1st - 3rd every year and we were 2nd - 4th satisfying Champions League qualification but they won the Champions League and FA Cup whilst we only won the Carling Cup but beat them three times every season, would you be happy?

I know ... I know it's all bollocks ? what I am trying to get to is how do you judge success (relative in this instance)? I feel league placings trumps Carling Cup and losing FA Cup finalists ? would you prefer FA Cup and Carling Cup double or Premier League Champions?

Paul David
72 Posted 15/05/2012 at 14:58:14

Dave

I agree with you about Swansea's style,its far to patient for my taste but you really have got to admire them all the same.Its incredibly hard to keep hold of the ball for any lenth of time so to be able to do it with a team that cost less than one of our players is amazing.

Dean Adams
73 Posted 15/05/2012 at 15:28:32

Jimmy

Now that Drenthe will not be playing for us again this season and is out of contract with very little to no chance at all of getting a contract with us, will you shut the fuck up about him. It is so silly going on about a player who is evidently not what we need or want.

Be positive Jimmy. Since the New year we have champions league form. No reason to believe we cant just carry it on into next season. Have faith Jimmy. We all want what is best for EFC, its just that probably, just probably Moyes knows more than both you and me put together and is therefore in a better position to do his job. I do get it, you are as frustrated as the rest of us (not wanting to speak for all Everton fans, or trying to).

Onward and upward. Keep the faith.

Stephen Kenny
74 Posted 15/05/2012 at 15:33:38

Jim H,

You get three points for a win regardless of what point in the season it is. Form over the course of a season is all that matters.

Dave,

The only person labelling them the entertainers is you.

What can't be denied is that they are a limited group trying to play the game the right way on a very tight budget.

They have tricky wingers, they try to play through sides and they keep it on the floor.

They are patient and they aren't my cup of tea, but to describe it as garbage is well.... garbage.

But everyone knows you only did so to try and boost your own point about Moyes.

Up to Jan there were plenty on here suggesting that because we hadn't spent any money in the transfer windows meant we couldn't expect any standard of football to be played, despite us clearly having better players than sides like Swansea.

A lot of how we play has changed from the first half of the season and it's not just the new signings.

Howard now looks for ther throw out or the goal kick to feet. This never used to happen.

We keep hold of the ball and go backwards if a pass to the midfield isn't on. This used to be a hopeful hoof.

Free kicks are now played to the closest man in space. They used to get the big up'n'under.

Throws are recycled quickly. This used to be the big wind up from Neville into the box or launched as far up the line as we could.

Players are moving into space and looking for the ball. We were very, very static at the start opf the season.

All these things should happen as a matter of course and any manager worth thier salt would be making sure they do.

The personnel involved at the start of this season were good enough for us to do all those things, but we never.

Dave Wilson
75 Posted 15/05/2012 at 18:40:32

Stephen

You may be able to fool yourself, but you dont fool me.

We would NEVER have made such a dramatic improvement without the services of Gibson, Jelavic, Pienaar and Donovan (albeit briefly).

People like Fellaini and Heitinga were able to see a light at the end of the tunnel, they realised we had a striker who not only worked his arse off for the team, but one who knows where the net is. At long last there was an end product.

Confidence started to flow, Baines started getting down the wings again because he knew there was a proper footballer in front of him. Osman was able to pass the ball to confident footballers who can play rather than get caught in possesion because the non-footballers were making like lighthouses and offering no options.

If you think that Cahill, Neville, Coleman, Jagielka, Hibbert & Stracqualursi could have turned things around and produced the football we are seeing now without the January recruitments, you are very much deluding yourself.

The problem the MOB have is this: they have been constantly claiming that Moyes is tactically clueless, a one-trick pony whose incapable of producing a side to play attractive attacking football... but he's doing it and he is doing it in front of the whole world.

You`ve all been proved completely wrong,

Paul David
76 Posted 15/05/2012 at 19:43:36

Dave

Yes and the people who claim we could not play football because we had no money for new players have been proven wrong by Swansea and Norwich; those entire squads cost less than Fellaini.

Stephen Kenny
77 Posted 15/05/2012 at 20:40:53

He's finished 7th, Dave.

The only time the world watched he had two of his three signings in the side and he bottled it in epic fashion ? despite all the momentum and form being with us.

Of the players you mention that aren't good enough, only Coleman didn't play a part yesterday. So what was the difference? Neville even played in the MIDFIELD!

Most of the MOB have said he's produced sides that have played at times.

What he's never proved is he can produce a side that plays consistent football.

This year is another half-season job.

We can all guess how next season will start. Even the lazy press now see fit to comment on it regularly.

Barry Rathbone
78 Posted 15/05/2012 at 20:17:38

Dave 244

"The problem the MOB have is this; They have been constantly been claiming that Moyes is tactically clueless, a one trick pony whose incapable of producing a side to play attractive attacking football . .but he`s doing it and he is doing it in front of the whole world."

Yeah, then he reverted to type when it mattered most.

We've had a few of these purple patches, remember the "best squad" crew and the dire shite they served up when expectation was raised, ie, when it mattered.

Don't let 10 years of same old, same old evidence get in the way of kneeling at your icon of Moyes.

Jay Harris
79 Posted 15/05/2012 at 20:45:32

Lets not underestimate the change brought about by Johnny Heitinga's ability on the ball.

Because he doesnt hoof it (Like you know who) Howard has an outlet and JH makes other players feel they have an outlet to pass back to if they are under pressure on the ball.

He has calmed the back 4 and instilled confidence in the team.

Jelavic has shown how simple it is to find the net if you're hungry enough (which Saha wasnt) and Peanuts has provided the skill and hard work which we lacked on the flanks.

But let's be real we are still a work in progressand short of 2 or 3 quality players to take us on to the next level albeit still with a relatively small squad.

Phil Bellis
80 Posted 15/05/2012 at 20:56:00

Mr Wilson
Without in any way wishing to be abusive to you...

Colin Wainwright
81 Posted 15/05/2012 at 21:04:00

Shit Phil, you can't just leave it like that mate. Elaborate.

Ian Bennett
82 Posted 15/05/2012 at 21:08:47

I think you can say, apart from City, most are works in progress.

A lof of rivals have aged players who will cause issues to replace ? United, Liverpool, Chelsea. The answer isn't who can sign the best players, but who can get an effective settled side.

Stephen Kenny
83 Posted 15/05/2012 at 21:18:39

Jay,

I agree. Kudos to Moyes for signing him. A great player and looking like a bargain at what we paid.

I sincerely hope we never see him anywhere near our midfield again.

James Martin
84 Posted 15/05/2012 at 21:18:13

Yes Swansea's squad cost less than ours, and they showed they can play decent football but look at their league position. Who wants that? You can only use what you have, credit has to go to whoever put that Swansea squad together, whether it was Martinez, Sousa or Rogers, they have decent players who can play decently in a nice fashion. Moyes didn't have this at the start of the season, yes that's partly his fault because its his squad but its not his fault that Arteta and Pienaar left and he didn't see any of the money. We didn't have any creativity, we didn't have any wingers (ones who weren't insane), and we didn't really have a goal scorer. What else could Moyes do but to bank on his defense, and play to the limited strengths of a team who knew how to grind out enough wins and draws to keep us in mid table. No one liked it, I don't want to see it again, but if you're Moyes and you had those players with january six months off what would you do? Try and get Hibbert and Neville and Cahill to start doing some one touch stuff, when their confidence is shot and their form is low? That could have been suicidal. The same way Swansea can't play any other way because they don't have the players (much to their detriment as they have found out as the season has gone on) we couldn't play any other way because we didn't have those players. Once January came we got in four more players, confidence went up and the style of football has increasingly improved. I hated the first half of the season but if i'd had Moyes's hand (whether or not it wa shis fault we wer ein that state anyway) I would have done the same thing.

Paul David
85 Posted 15/05/2012 at 21:35:40

James

So let me get this right,in the first half of the season Moyes was sending out sides that cost well inexess of £40m and these players cant play football?

Even if they cant Moyes has to take a large part of the blame for signing that type of player and for then not getting rid of them in favour of players who can play.

Dave Wilson
86 Posted 15/05/2012 at 21:20:41

Paul #248

Swansea and Norwich have spent more than us in the past two seasons. while they have been strengthening their squads, we were selling our best players. You can twist these stats anyway you want. for instance ; Did you know that both sides had players who cost more than Hibbert, Coleman, Duffy, Gibson, Drenthe, Barkley, Osman Pienaar, Rodwell, straquilursi, Mcfadden, Vellios and Anichebe put together ? Thats the bulk of last seasons squad mate.

Stephen.

You and the rest of the MOB will claim Moyes bottled the semi final, thats your opinion and you are entitled to it - I happen to believe senior players did the bottling. However ! it still does not change the fact that we have played some superb football.

Now dress it up any ways you want but the fact is, all those people who claimed he was a dour one trick pony, incapable of sending a team out to play attractive football have been proved wrong.

Ian Bennett
87 Posted 15/05/2012 at 21:44:27

I agree dave - but Moyes has to deliver when it counts home and away in the big matches. Playing pretty stuff with no pressure counts for little apart from false hope.

Nick Waters
88 Posted 15/05/2012 at 21:45:53

Dave! Even Moyes himself said after Wembley that they had set out to hang on to the one nil lead in the second half.

And to all those above trying to suggest that losing to the RS 3 times means less than finishing above them, what will be the lingering feeling over the months and years ahead? I still haven't got over 1971 never mind 1977.

Paul David
89 Posted 15/05/2012 at 21:45:03

Dave

Is that really true?

Swansea and Norwich paid more for players than the ones who came through our youth system and players we didnt buy but brought in on loan?

Shocking.

Thats not the point anyway,what i'm saying is it doesnt not take huge sums of money to put together a team capable of passing to each other and Swansea prove that.How many of their players would get into our side?Not many yet our better players are not capable of putting a few passes together untill the arrival of Pienaar and Jelavic.

Dave Wilson
90 Posted 15/05/2012 at 21:49:06

I accept that Ian, results, could and should have been better Moyes is guilty of the charges levelled against him for the shite we witnessed first half of the season, he after all is the guy who selected the players I call "non footballers"

but thats a seperate debate, the thread is not about results, its about improved performances and budgets.

Stephen Leary
91 Posted 15/05/2012 at 21:28:50

Newcastle did great, they sold Carroll and bought really well with that money, Pardew really suprised me, as i thought he was an average manager really. If we want to sign a couple of players unfortunately we are going to have to sell to buy, and by sell to buy we won' t get away with selling Vic it will be a Baines or Felli.

People can argue all day long on here about 7th etc and best football etc, as far as im concerned i will not be bragging to my Liverpool mates about finishing above them in 7th when they have a trophy and beat us 3 fucking times. The main point and problem and always will be is our board and there attitude to us fans and the way they run our club, until we can find a way of making it clear there not wanted and they sell up and go nothing will change.

We will still get the sales the shite starts the dour depressed manager because our board have nothing to give. Before the comments about who do we sell do etc i don't know that although i am one that thinks a club like ours is bound to have had interest, but our chairman is too stubborn, to famed to let go of the premiership chairman status. Nothing will change ever while him and his buddies the Earl's and Green's of this world are there in the boardroom, bet you Moyes has been told Pienaar is not happening, thats why the guy was so emotional on Sunday saying goodbye.

The Board Out!!

Chris Leyland
92 Posted 15/05/2012 at 22:16:31

Te fact that the Shite did beat us twice in the league is something I've used in recent arguements with them. They say "we beat you three times" and I say "yes we gave you a six point head start in the league and you still couldn't finish above us. How shite must you really be?"

Phil Roberts
93 Posted 15/05/2012 at 22:30:39

The board out - yeah like how? they own the thing. get real.

Stupid comment

Bobby Thomas
94 Posted 15/05/2012 at 22:07:06

I think it's fairly obvious there was a malaise running through the club at the start of the season. From the board, to manager, feeding through to the players and also the fans.

Basically the players and fans aren't stupid; they know when the players coming in aren't as good as the ones leaving. The squad was being ran down.

The tone is set by the manager, however. Unlike the man who manages to get 4th place on sheer force of will and subsequently drove the club forward powerfully, at the start of this season, Moyes looked like a beaten man.

The decade of swimming against the tide had done him. He has, like him or not, carried the club for 10 years and I can understand the fatigue. But the fire had gone and I didn't think he had much fight left.

My personal opinion is that Moyes went into survival mode, definitely until the window, and it was all about staying in the Premier League. Without the additions, I think we would have been in trouble. I believe he went with the system he viewed would get us enough points to achieve that objective.

With new players, we found a way of playing; before, we were struggling to find a successful system. I think Moyes went with the one that he viewed, stood the best chance of getting the points to stay up. He's a pragmatist, always has been.

We have played many different ways in the 10 years he's been here. Remember early last season? People on here going beserk for us overplaying, the build up too slow. Well, if we had Jelavic's cutting edge then, I think we would have been good enough for a dart at the top 4, injuries permitting, as that side was a wide right player and a striker from being a VERY good side.

But that's the problem, and that's part of the money argument... cos we had NONE.

We had to solve our striker problem with Beckford on a free, cut him the slack of jumping two divisions, at 28, and him finding out he was shit at lone striker and couldn't hold the ball up!! He would have been a very handy squad player, but ended up taking a very decent fee considering... cos we were skint... again.

We got better this year cos we got better players in, end of.

Donovan immediately perked things, and the players, up. Why? Because they rate him. More than McFadden, I'd say!!

He is just a very good player and brings ball retention (trust me he rarely gives the ball away), pace, goal threat and assists. Gibson brought central midfield balance, simple ball retention, hunger and protection. Piennar brings more ball retention (notice a theme here?), hard work, invention and combination play with Baines.

Also, adding a 20-goal man ? who can play with his back to goal, join play up, is a threat in behind and is prepared to work hard ? tends to help. Not a finished, confidence-shot Saha, who has to pace himself and play in bursts just to do 90 minutes. Jesus, Moyes was even going with Stracq before the window, and he's a Duracell Bunny pub striker.

Denis Richardson
95 Posted 15/05/2012 at 22:18:24

Simple question to all.

Would you rather win 3 derbies in one season, win a cup, play in another cup final, be in Europe the following season but finish one solitary place below your neighbours. Or win nothing and finish one solitary place above your neighbours, that place being 7th?

I know which I'd rather have...

Its better to finish about the RS than below, obviously, but its a little embarrasing calling it an 'achievement'. Especially when everyone readily admits its one of the worst RS sides is literally decades

We had the usual strong finish to the season after the usual crap start, but before we all go having a wank about it, lets remember the previous years and wait until the next season starts

Money does obviously make a difference but we could have been far better and wiser in the transfer market in the last couple of years. The barcodes have shown what a little money can do and we could have sold the likes of Billy and Jags (to name a couple) to raise funds a year or two ago etc.

August will tell if Moyes has had a lobotomy and gonad transplant or whether its the usual end of season teaser for the season ticket sales....

Roman Sidey
96 Posted 15/05/2012 at 22:33:08

A good way of looking at what Tony is trying to say is to assess the actual pedigree of the players we got in in January.

Jelavic - came from a team coming second in a league that people on this very site have described as worse than Championship. When a manager does well there it's "Anyone can win in Scotland," but when a player comes in from such a team, "He's what we've been begging for for years!"

Gibson - well, very ordinary at United, absolutely torn apart the second he signed, now he's apparently exactly what our midfield has been calling out for.

Pienaar - couldn't make the grade in a better side so begged to come back to the club he basically said wasn't good enough for him 12 months earlier. On loan.

Yeah, we really spent big to change our fortunes this season. Despite the fact that Moyes was forcing Saha to play a system he admitted he couldn't play (why we signed Jelavic), Rodwell has had any quality trained out of him (why we signed Gibson) and Moyes couldn't get along with Drenthe (why we signed Pienaar. Look it out how you like.

Tom Winek, first post, non-Evertonians can think whatever they like. If they think we've had a successful season to be proud of, what does that mean they think of our club?

Moyes out.

Dean Adams
97 Posted 15/05/2012 at 22:51:53

They are a crap redshite side, but are still much better than most of the teams in the premier league. We hate them, is it because they have been better than us for so long, or is it because we are just so much better human beings?

I laugh when people try and pretend that they are really crap. They are not, just compared to what they should be with all the money they have.

Denis Richardson
98 Posted 15/05/2012 at 23:05:54

Dean - people are not saying Liverpool are crap, simply that they are crap compared to the Liverpool teams of the past, hence us being able to now finish above them is more down to them declining rather than any huge feat by us..

As for them being better than most other teams in the league, well.......so are we so not sure what your point is.

Mike Green
99 Posted 15/05/2012 at 23:03:41

Without wanting to stir up a hornets nest, and apologies if his has been mentioned....

Had we reversed the two Derby matches there would've been a 16 point gap between us and them. Reverse the other and we're in a Cup Final.

I think in the last two months we've restored some pride and shown what we can do with the right players in the right positions. I've been pretty enraged by some of the goings on this season and elated on others, the victory at Sunderland in particular.

So. Please Please Please can we start and finish a season well next year. Can we Please shake the hoodoo LFC have over us off. And can we please get a shit hot right winger and young clone of Cahill to partner Jelly up front. And carry on where we've left off.

Do that and I think I'll be happy.

Ian Smitham
100 Posted 15/05/2012 at 23:29:48

27 years ago tonight-best team in Europe

Dan Brierley
101 Posted 15/05/2012 at 23:03:19

Stephen Leary, can you please point out the part where Pienaar said goodbye? Or have you made that part up to suit your agenda?

Roman, typically awesome post from your good self.

What exactly is your point regarding Jelavic? Do you think he has been a bad signing? The SPL is worse than the championship, but it doesnt mean there are not good players there. 5 million is a masterstroke from Moyes.

Gibson was very average for the first 4-5 games he played. He then built up a good understanding of playing with Fellaini and we now have a good central midfield. Again, what is the point you are trying to make? Has he been a bad signing from the manager?

Can you also explain where your comment on the 'Quality' that Rodwell has had trained out of him has come from? My honest opinion is that he shown only potential, and never true consistent quality.

Everton start badly, Moyes then shifts out the underperformers and brings in players that have us top 3 performers since Xmas, and you think Moyes should be sacked? How much more evidence do you need to demonstrate that when Moyes has money to spend, we have a better team?

Your comments on Drenthe show how biased you really seem to be. The lad showed complete disrespect to our club by turning up late for training sessions, yet in your book this is fine, its the managers fault for not accepting this behaviour. Unbelievable.

Many of you are clinging on to the derby defeats to justify your viewpoints. Its even more apparent when we see excuses like 'Newcastle run out of steam'. If Everton 'run out of steam', the manager is slated for not being able to motivate his team. Regardless of what negative feeling some of you have, I for one am optimisitc for the new season, and happy Moyes is in charge. No amount of regurgitated derby crap is going to sway that optimism, as I know one day you will get bored of it, and find something else to moan about as you have been doing for years on end.

Paul David
102 Posted 15/05/2012 at 23:37:39

Dan

Moyes shifts out the underperformers?

Do you mean the striker he started every single game even though there was other options?

Then theres the £9m attacking midfielder who he never played in his proper position even though the player playing in his position was the worst in the team.

Is that Moyes's fault or not?

Jim Knightley
103 Posted 16/05/2012 at 00:11:25

Roman...please explain the point of your post...apart from the bizzare subjectivity of it, are you trying to suggest the people we brought in are poor? because if they are so bad, but have clearly improved our team, then how bad is our team? if our team is so bad, as you clearly must infer, then hasn't Moyes performed wonders to get us to seventh? One more thing Roman...what do Gattuso, Henrik Larsson and Arteta have in common? they all played in Scotland...ended up going somewhere though didn't they? If the pedigree was bad, then Moyes deserves alot of credit for their success (although I think most of us agreed Pienarr would be successful and was an obvious re-signing)

Re. Liverpool's side being the worse for decade/s...what about ours? Prior to the January arrivals, our squad was dire. Osman was our best creative player, Saha our best striker...this is the worse team we've had for several seasons.

Paul, re. Billy. Bullshit about his position, absolutely bullshit. He spent more time playing for his national team and in Russia on the left side than anywhere else. Moyes did not re-locate him, it is one of the great Toffeeweb fallacy's.

Mark Riding
104 Posted 16/05/2012 at 00:45:20

Jim #313 - You forgot Big Dunc, Sharp, Gray.. In your played in Scotland to start with thing..
Oh.. and Billy was just totally out of his depth and not strong enough..

Paul David
105 Posted 16/05/2012 at 01:01:24

Jim

Billy was never a winger,I dont care where he played in his career and everybody could see it.Its not like I would expected him to turn into Messi just by moving him to the middle but his performances would have improved and its not like he was being kept out of that position by a free scoring Cahill.The fact that Cahill was never dropped and Billy wasnt given a go there shows Moyes's stubbornness and belief that he is never wrong.

Paul David
106 Posted 16/05/2012 at 01:15:33

Jim

Billy was never a winger and everyone could see it,I dont care where he had played for Russia.Its not like I was expecting him to turn into Messi by moving him to the middle but his performances would have improved plus its not like he was being kept out of that position by a free scoring Cahill.The fact that Moyes never dropped a shite Cahill to see what Billy would be like there shows his stubbornness and belief that he is never wrong even though he is and often.

Roman Sidey
107 Posted 16/05/2012 at 02:38:03

Dan Brierley, I never said they were bad signings. I was pointing out that, in the scheme of things, they weren't massive signings. They were typical Moyes signings.

That said, yes, I think it does speak wonders about the actual quality of our squad.

Re: Drenthe. Moyes didn't like hime from the outset, not just in the last couple of months.

You can twist and turn people's words and points all you like, but it's how I see it. I used to like Moyes, but the damage has been done, and he didn't use the opportunity he had to repair it, so he is out of chances with me (and a lot of other fans too).

If I could trade 7th place with 3 derby losses for 8th place and a win, draw and a loss, I would do it in a heart beat, and I'm not even Scouse.

Anto Byrne
108 Posted 16/05/2012 at 02:31:39

David Moyes to Aston Villa? Why not? They offer him better money and investment in new players? Ok its a pipe dream but worth consideration because if DM does go what then? My preference would be some-one like Neville and Round and perhaps Sheedy stepping up to first team duties and free kick practice. Its going to be a long hot summer of intrigue.

Stephen Leary
109 Posted 16/05/2012 at 03:13:10

Dan Brierley, I have no idea what agenda you think i have, im merely stating my opinion that if he was for staying then I really don't think he would be that emotional.

I mean 18 months ago the guy left us without a tear dropped. My point is he knew he made a mistake and now regrets it, thus got me thinking he won't be signing permanently due to our shite board hence his reaction.

Spurs will play hardball, I hope to fuck I'm wrong but that's in my opinion what I read into it.

Jay Harris
110 Posted 16/05/2012 at 04:39:34

Can we please drop Bily from the debate.

No matter what position he was played in he was totally out of his depth and like a little boy lost.

My only complaint is it took too long to get shut of him.

Roman Sidey
111 Posted 16/05/2012 at 06:42:40

So Jay, Bily not playing well for two and half years, despite a fairly decent haul of match-highlight-type goals is to be stricken from debate, yet another player, just as, if not more shit, who occasionally chips in with some goals (I'm talking about Osman) is still part of our first team?

If anyone follows Bily on Twitter, you would have seen that he is having the last laugh, as he will be playing Champions League next season.

Dave Wilson
112 Posted 16/05/2012 at 06:46:44

Stephen #282
"What`s the difference ?"

I`ll tell you, In Hibberts case there wasnt any.

In Straquilursi and Cahills case, neither had any influence at all, Cahill had hold of Cabaye more than the ball and I cant remember Straq contributing anything - The game was won before they came on.

Neville was STILL a water carrier, only he was carrying for skilled footballers - not other water carriers.

Denis #290

Your question may have been a simple one but I dont understand it. are you suggesting we get a choice ?

Do you think Man U fans are happy they were twatted for six on their own midden by City ?

Or the Spurs fans dont wish they hadnt been battered 5 by Arsenal ?

Do you think Gers fans would choose to have Sellic fans dancing around at their predicament ?

We all would have like to have beaten the shite, but sometimes you lose, We were losing finals and semi finals to the shite long before Moyes came along.other teams fans recover by getting back up and dusting themselves down . THAT is how it has to be.Whining and wallowing over spilt milk serves no purpose.

Games against the shite are always the most important, but I dont get this desperation to wallow in the past. The shite didnt beat us last season but I dont remember too many people caring about that when we finished below them.

When we`ve sufferd the agony of shite performance and defeat we are entitled to enjoy improved performances and victories, You may see that as people "having a wank" but I see it as people not wanting to concentrate only on the misery.

Stephen Kenny
113 Posted 16/05/2012 at 09:24:50

Dave,

Here's the thing. The change in our form started before Jelavic kicked on and Pienaar came back.

Straqualursi was bench warming for nearly five months. He spent most of that time watching a fella who admitted he couldn't run anymore getting picked every single week. In his run in the side he scored winners against Chelsea and Fulham and was MOTM against City playing against a defender who's been head and shoulders above every other in the league this season.

Do you honestly believe it took him all that time to be ready just to better the woeful performance of Saha? In my eyes he done that just by jumping for headers.

Cahill has been a constant right through the season. Are you saying our poor form was because of him and our good form is in spite of him? If so why is he still being picked when we've had other options since Jan?

I'd say we had at least one other option before then which we debated at the time. It's hard to see how they could have done worse.

And the last change we had was Heitinga dropping back to CB. The only reason he did was because the Jag got injured. We both know that whether you're willing to admit it or not.

A defence that went from booting everything 70 yards and making game changing mistakes on a constant basis turned into one that could retain possession and keep clean sheets. That happened by complete accident.

We started poorly because of poor prep, poor team selection and an inability or desire to do the simple things, which I pointed out earlier, properly.

I'm not saying Pienaar and Jelavic have made no difference. I'm saying their signings are only part of the reason we saw that quality of football against Newcastle.

Stephen Kenny
114 Posted 16/05/2012 at 09:45:15

BTW,

The players neville was carrying water for were Fellaini and Rodwell. One who has been immense all season and the other who broke into the England squad this season aged 20.

John Ford
115 Posted 16/05/2012 at 09:57:17

I think the OP misses the key point.

Money is the single biggest factor in terms of winning trophies, and that is what so many fans get frustrated about.

Decent football is a different matter. Moyes has proven that modest means can lead to good football (post January sales) but to actually win trohies and challenge consistently, as many have said here - it is about gettng the best players and the strongest squads. Without this there seems little chance of reaching tthe top table.

Dave Wilson
116 Posted 16/05/2012 at 09:53:10

Stephen

I will agree with you results did start to improve before Jelavic and Pienaar got here, but thats not what this thread is about, its about performances and although we battled to victory against City and Chelsea we were playing with no where near the quality of football we were playing towards the End.
I also agree it took far too long to drop Cahill, but when Felaini was eventually moved to play in "his role" it was because Moyes had aquired and had began to trust Gibson.

Dont get me started on Jagielka, he`s a fine defender but you`ll get no argument from me that our football improved when JH replaced him - regardless of the circumstances.

Your right, Pienaar and Jelavic are only two of the reasons are game has improved so much, Gibson`s is another, as is the belief that we can actually score. The form of Osman, Baines and Fellaini all took a turn for the better when the new boys arrived, things were finally freshened up.

We will always always always play better football without Jagielka Neville and Cahill.

Trouble is, they are called "legends".Often by the very people who demand we play with a little more flair and panache

Neal King
117 Posted 16/05/2012 at 10:21:28

Jay Harris 329....you say " Can we please drop Bily from the debate", then proceed to offer your valued opinion on why it went wrong for him.

so lets drop Bily from the debate...... after you've finished!

Jim Knightley
118 Posted 16/05/2012 at 10:28:54

Ok Paul...so now Moyes not playing Billy in his 'proper position' has turned into the position where you think he should play...do you think Billy was perhaps just not good enough? Seriously, what Russian player has made it over the long haul in the Premier league. Zhirkov and Arshavin, two of the very best Russian players were ultimately failures. Pav has failed, and so did Billy. They've been about as successful as the majority of Brazilian players. And 'highlight' goals, do not make good players. Bentley was a scorer of 'highlight goals', where is he now?
This league is about consistency, and Billy offered none.

Stephen, in the game against Chelski in which Denis scored, Donovan, Pienarr and Gibson all played, and the former two in particular were instrumental. Likewise in games against Fulham and City, Donovan and Gibson were present. I've no doubt, that Saha would have scored alot more goals in a team with Donovan or Pienarr in. We had zero creativity at the start of the season, and that cost us. I'm glad Saha went, and his attitude was shit, but I think our primary issue was creativity. If we don't get Pienarr, and another creative player, I think we will start next season terribly as well. We just do not make enough chances otherwise, and whoever the striker may be, they can't score from nothing (Ok..unless they are Messi or Ronaldo then they can).

There was no accident in our improvement. It happened because of players. Every one of our January aquisitions improved us, and if we had had Pienarr, Gibson, Donovan and Jelavic for the first half of the season, we would have had more points and played better. Moyes made some mistakes, Heitinga is clearly out best defender and Cahill needed benching, but our ascension since January was clearly linked to personnel changes.

Paul David
119 Posted 16/05/2012 at 10:49:22

Jim

Billy wasnt good enough,he had ability but lacked pace,strength and concentration.I wasnt championing Billy but replying to Dans post about Moyes shipping out under performing players.

Imo it is Moyes's fault for continuing to pick a striker that everyone could see could not be arsed and picking another player on the wing when it was also obvious to everyone he didnt have what it takes to play on the wing.Maybe he would not have been good enough to play in the middle either but we'll never know because Moyes never had the foresight to give him a go there,instead relying on the vast amount of goals and assists Cahill brought to the team.

Tony J Williams
120 Posted 16/05/2012 at 12:31:05

"I don't want to hear it to be honest; it makes us look like a Wigan or a Bolton. A small-time club with small-time mentality." - What like judging someone on 3 games out of 39?

Stephen Kenny
121 Posted 16/05/2012 at 12:56:27

Jim,

I'm not saying better players doesn't equal better football.

I'm saying that we has a squad of players that was better than our first half of the season suggests.

I'm also saying that doing a lot of the simple things in-game has also made a big difference.

I don't think a midfield consisting of Osman, Drenthe, Bily, Rodwell, Fellaini, Barkley and Heitinga, who were most used in the first half of the season, were incapable of passing and moving into space for each other.

I also think they are a cut above the Derrys and Whelans of this world.

Denis Richardson
122 Posted 16/05/2012 at 12:51:02

Dave 338, the point is simple. Its nice to finish above Liverpool but in the context of things its not exactly anything to shout about given we only finished one place above them, 7th, and they actually won something adn will be in Europe next year.

Had we beaten them to 1st, 4th or even 6th place and gotten something more (other than just an extra 800k) then it would mean a lot more more. I.e. lets stop going on about finishing one place above them being a great achievment, that's what I'm getting at.

Also, arguably they were the most unlucky team in the league given they hit the woodwork 33 times (highest in the league in case you were wondering), although Bolton would probably argue with that!

Tony J Williams
123 Posted 16/05/2012 at 13:04:18

"I'm saying that we has a squad of players that was better than our first half of the season suggests" - The problem is though Stephen, it is all conjecture. The only real evidential proof is that our play and results improved when we brought better players into our team, these were either bought or loaned....which takes money.

As mentioned previously, we tried the ticca takka footy last season and we couldn't score so again panic set in and the keep it tight came back.

It has been shown that when he has the players, we try and play football, this year at the start of the seasonm we didn't have any, dare I say, "flair" players after Arteta went, so no surprise our footy suffered.

Stephen Kenny
124 Posted 16/05/2012 at 13:15:34

Tony,

I'm not suggesting we could have played the way we did Sunday at the start of the season. I know we've got better and, importantly, hungrier players.

What I'm saying is that a lot of the simple things we should have been doing weren't happening in the first half of this season.

This isn't a Moyes out rant or anything from me. I've given him full credit for a superb finish in the league. But I'll also put a lot of blame at his door for the dire stuff we watched pre chrimbo.

Jimmy Kelly
125 Posted 16/05/2012 at 13:05:35

One thing that an awful people seem to either forget or don't realise is that a side like Swansea have been built, over a number of years, to play in a certain way. They have been gradually strengthening to the point where they are now a good premiership side.

The side we had at the start of the year was the exact opposite of that. Somebody mentioned that Swansea's squad had cost less than Fellaini, this is true but the key (in my opinion) is that Fellaini was meant to be piece in a jigsaw. He was signed to be the muscle in a side which had Arteta, Pienaar, an in-form Cahill and Yakubu knocking the goals in. Don't try to tell me that at that time we didn't play good football because we most certainly did. Fast forward to this season, 3 of them have gone and the other is struggling while nobody has been brought in to replace them - it's not surprising that we weren't playing well because there was no balance to the side.

If I gave one person £1,000 to buy a car and another person £10,000 to buy a car you would expect the more expensive one to be better, yes?

But if I told the second person - after they'd bought it - that they had to sell a wheel and the engine and replace them for free, which would you expect to better then?

Paul David
126 Posted 16/05/2012 at 13:20:24

Jimmy

"People forget a side like Swansea's was built over time"

Yeah and thats something Moyes hasnt had.

Joe Clitherow
127 Posted 16/05/2012 at 12:48:26

Paul David/Roman I simply don't understand the Bilyaletdinov love-ins except to bash Moyes. The guy was simply not a Premier League footballer never mind played out of position.

Having watched nearly all of his appearances for Everton at home and many away he was simply useless and ineffective in whatever position, even played where his defenders said he should - which he certainly was on more than one occasion!! He was crap there too. A lazy player.

Roman your "fairly decent haul of match highlight type goals" is simply wrong quantitatively but that comment is really the problem - any footballer in the world can look great on YouTube. Billy was the equivalent of a keepy uppy record holder - great on skill, useless in a match. I'll never be able to change your stubborn blinkered views based on half truths between the difference between Osman and Billy but anyone who knows anything will know that the overall contributions to Everton made by those two players is of vastly different orders, and possibly inversely relational to the level of respective natural talent to boot.

As for your Drenthe comments - Jesus Wept!! "Moyes didn't like him from the outset". He doesn't have to like him, he just has to get him contributing!! He apparently hated him so much that he rescued his career (again) when no-one would touch this sack of trouble with a barge pole and was repaid entirely in character. He wasn't sacked for a lover's tiff but for turning up to work inebriated and unfit to work. This is gross misconduct. Get real lad!!

You may have guessed you have touched a nerve but there is nothing guaranteed to push my buttons so much as individuals who possess all the natural gifts to succeed but totally lack the attendant focus and discipline to be effective. Both these players fit into that category.

So far as your self-important statement of Moyes being out of chances with you, I'm sure that's set the alarm bells ringing in L4 given you live in, where, Australia?

Stephen Kenny
128 Posted 16/05/2012 at 13:23:09

Jimmy,

Swansea were built over the course of a few years. How long has Moyes had???

How many of the players who started with us this season have been here for years???

He's always said it's up to him which players go. It could have just as easy been Jags going to Arsenal instead of Arteta if he valued creativity over function.

Swansea and almost every other club has to let players go from time to time. I don't remember Ferguson, Dalglish, Wenger or anybody else saying they can't play anymore because they had to sell their start player, which all have had to do.

Paul David
129 Posted 16/05/2012 at 13:28:06

Joe

If you read what I said you will see I said Billy wasnt good enough but that Moyes still has to take part of the responsibility for his form by playing him on the wing when everyone else inside Goodison could see he wasnt a winger.

Tony J Williams
130 Posted 16/05/2012 at 13:11:33

Denis, why are you talking Liverpool up? Unlucky? maybe if they didn't by a £35m donkey or have a racist in there team...

You want to talk about unlucky? What about a red card at Goodison that killed our chances, what about a quality defender giving the ball to the racist when they could have played all nght and not scored?

It is an achievement to finish about them, in the same sense it is an achievement to score more points than last season, means nothing really but it is something that can be used against them.

Let them crow about wining the Worthless Cup on penalties against a Championship side, when Reina didn't make one save and let them crow about beating us twice in the league, one with the help of the ref and one with the help of Moyes.

We finished above them, so ergo we were the better side in that season, no matter how many times the mention the derbies, just refer them to the fact that we gave them six points and yet they still couldn't get above us.

As Moyes stated, there is nothing to celebrate finishing 7th but if the posters on here who were foaming at the mouth after the Analfied derby can't be happy of the fact that we finished above them....then so be it, I will use this to wind up the shite fans in work all summer.

Jimmy Kelly
131 Posted 16/05/2012 at 13:41:31

Paul and stephen, have you bothered to read the whole thing or just stopped where it suited you?

I've made it quite clear the point i'm making but i'll try to spell it out for you.

Moyes was building a side that could play good football, then the rug was pulled and he had to sell good players and bring in crap ones. Swansea are still building their side and bringing in the players to fit into their philosophy. If they start having the same problems Moyes had they may find it more difficult.

Paul David
132 Posted 16/05/2012 at 14:01:08

Jimmy

Yes I read the whole thing but theres no getting away from the fact that Moyes has been in the job for 10 years.So if he loses Arteta and Pienaar and is left with shit players its because he bought them players,rates them players,plays them players and refuses to sell them in order to replace the creative players that have left.

Joe Clitherow
133 Posted 16/05/2012 at 14:13:25

Paul 420

I saw that but the difference is that both of us don't think he's a winger, but I don't think he's a footballer. Not a Premier League one anyway. Mostly that's to do with workrate and "heart"

Stephen Kenny
134 Posted 16/05/2012 at 14:11:05

Jimmy,

I read it all and disagreed with the points you were making.

I also gave examples of why I disagree. Player trading is a part of football.

Notable sales through Moyes reign are IMO Rooney, Lescott and Arteta.

I don't believe he was too bothered about any of the others.

Over a period of 10 years thats about as good as you can expect as a PL manager.

If Swansea sell all their players I expect the manager to be looking for others to continue his style of play for the simple reason that it's proven to be the most effective over a long, long period.

Over the past few months the MOB have mostly offered praise where it was due and given recognition to the style of play and the January signings.

The MIB have gone all out to try and change history and absolve Moyes off all blame for the early season debacle's that have happened consistently(Even when he had his best ever squad) and have ruined more than one season.

Those with genuine credibility on here call it as it is.

Tony J Williams
135 Posted 16/05/2012 at 14:16:23

Paul, if they are shit players, how can we sell them? Who is he to replace them with? Again it all about the money, money money!!

Paul David
136 Posted 16/05/2012 at 14:20:06

Joe

Fair enough, much the same way I think the performances Cahill has been putting in this year are not of the standard of a Premier League footballer (or even a professional footballer). Bily would probably still have flattered to deceive in his place but with his shooting from outside the box he would have scored a few whereas Cahill could go 3 or 4 games without a shot.

Dave Wilson
137 Posted 16/05/2012 at 14:11:30

Paul

your not making any sense, fisrt of all you want to compare the cost of one of our players with the cost Swansea squad, When its reversed and you are the names of their players who cost more than a dozen of out players you go into bable mode as if the point is in any way different.

Try listening to what Jimmy is saying. thje Norwich and Swansea boss`s have not had to sell their best players Moyes has.

While Lambert and Rodgers were building their squads Moyes was having his ripped apart.
Lescot, Pienaar and Arteta went because the asked to go and there was concrete offers for them. THAT is the difference between them and Jagielka.

We HAVE to sell players and only a complete mug would force out the players who want to stay whilst keeping hold of the players who want to go.

While Swansea and norwich have been spneding millions on transfers Moyes has actually been selling tens of millions worth of talent.

Despite all that we finished well above them and finished the season playing a brand of football they will never get near.

Denis

You obviously know your stuff and I`ll happily engage in conversation about Everton for hours . .but do you realise you are actually saying the shite have been unlucky in comparison to us ?

They have been the poxiest team on the planet for my entire adult life - probably yours too - I really would offer any sympathy for them hitting the woodwork a few times.

Besides I bet you a kopite came up with that stat.

Paul David
138 Posted 16/05/2012 at 14:29:12

Tony

When I said shit players I was being sarcastic because Joe thinks that without Pienaar and Arteta we were left with a team incapable of playing football.

I dont go along with this as we still had some decent players but even if the players were not able to play football its still no body elses fault as their all Moyes's players.

Tony Williams
139 Posted 16/05/2012 at 14:48:30

I was made up that City won the title. Not because I'm a City fan but because I'm an Everton fan. There must be other rich investors out there, who would like to replicate the success that the investors in City have had. It can only help our cause surely?

Stephen Kenny
140 Posted 16/05/2012 at 14:38:42

Dave,

"While Lambert and Rodgers were building their squads Moyes was having his ripped apart.
Lescot, Pienaar and Arteta went because the asked to go and there was concrete offers for them. THAT is the difference between them and Jagielka."

Lambert and Martinez/Rodgers built sides on peanuts. While Lambert was gambling a few mill on our injury prone reserve we had Yakubu, Saha, Beckford, Anichebe and Cahill to go up top for us.

Why don't you try listening to what Paul is saying. Moyes has a far more valuable squad and has spent more on it than both those sides put together.

So we finished above them and ended playing better football.

We should be above them all season and play better than them too. The money and players we have compared to two minnows.

BTW, managers should keep the players who are most useful to achieveing his goals not who want's to be there the most. Wenger confirmed he put a bid in for Jag. It was widely reported as £10-12m. Moyes chose function over flair.

His squad weren't 'ripped apart'. He sold players he clearly didn't fancy and chose his most creative to be the sacrificial lamb when he could have chosen his favourite defender, one there was a ready made replacement for.

Paul David
141 Posted 16/05/2012 at 14:37:56

Dave

I havent mentioned Jag I think your getting me mixed up with Stephen who is arguing a similar point to me.

We might have sold players in the last few years while Swansea and Norwich have been adding to theirs but if all the squads were put on the open market now i'll guarantee we would be paid at least 5 times as much for our players so its no surprise we finish above them.So if teams with lesser players can play football all year round why cant we.

Jim Harrison
142 Posted 16/05/2012 at 13:34:02

Billy was good/bad. osman is shite/bad. lost 3 times to RS/Finished above RS. All good discussions. But the thread is about money. If the board miraculously drummed up 15 million this year, and we sold a couple of fringe players, odds are, with Moyes transfer record, the team would be stronger and play better football more often.

This could result in a higher league position, and potentially a cup. But there are no grantees.

Next season teams like Norwich, Swansea and Newcastle are going to have to deal with bigger teams targeting their better players, and generating funds to push on. My guess is they will suffer.

It took Citteh 400million on top of whatever Erikson had spent on assembling an already half decent squad to get equal points with United. Even if the club drum up a few million, it isnt going to propel us back to the glory days, most likely just get closer to 4th place, and only then because we have one of the better man managers in Britain.

Oh, as for Rodwell, some people seem to think he has had a shit season. Not sure how he can be judged as he seems mostly to have been injured, also made himself a decent bet to be taken to the euros this year.

Stephen Kenny
143 Posted 16/05/2012 at 15:00:45

Err..... Ok Jim.

Wayne Smyth
144 Posted 16/05/2012 at 14:28:11

Tony, the players aren't shit, but putting together a football team is all about getting the mix right. Too many defenders. Square pegs in round holes. No pace. Not enough creativity. All criticisms that could be laid at Moyes door. The players end up looking worse than they are because the balance of the team is wrong.

We've had the opportunity to sell the likes of saha and jags for good money, turned that down. Got a ready made replacement for Jags in Duffy too. Look at what Moyes did with £5.5M in Gibson and Jelavic and then think what he could've done with £18M. Pardew turned his side from relegation candidates to top4 contenders by 1 big sale as did Moyes when Rooney left.

Moyes has said himself that he is going to need to start trading players more and about time too. We don't have investment, just a £60M wage budget, plus money for transfers generated by sales.

For me, even with Jelavic and Pienaar we're probably still too heavy with players who don't contribute significantly. Lose straq, mcfadden, drenthe, Hahnemann, Jags and cahill too if he can't find his form. Neville should be moved up. Thats a lot of available cash which can be reinvested in new, younger, better players.

Jimmy Kelly
145 Posted 16/05/2012 at 15:05:59

Thankyou Dave for managing to understand my ramblings.

Stephen you still don't seem to have actually grasped what i'm saying. That Moyes was building a good footballing side (not with the same patient principals as rodgers or martinez before anyone starts, but a good footballing side nonetheless) but then he had to lose the fulcrums of that side.

We've seen since January that despite what some people might think the likes of Hibbert, Jagielka, Neville (even in midfield) and Cahill ARE capable of playing in a good footballing side, as long as they have some movement, pace and vision around them. We lost the players who provide that and couldn't replace them, that hasn't happened to Swansea. It's just possible that if one or 2 of their key players went and weren't replaced their football would suffer. The car analogy wasn't there just to confuse you.

Why some people talk about Norwich as a better footballing side is beyond me, they play a lot of very direct stuff.

Dave Wilson
146 Posted 16/05/2012 at 14:51:42

Stephen

You are not making any sense now either.

Our forwards last season (before Yellavic came ) cost less than the "Minnows" .
How much do you think Straquilursi Vellios, Anichebe, Saha cost ?

Moyes did have more to spend, YEARS AGO but guess what ? The money dried up and the banks wanted paying. We are now by every definition a selling club, many of our players were either ageing or wanted to go to clubs that actually invest in players.

BTW "Wenger confirmed he put in a bid for Jagielka" for "10-12" million you say ? got any evidence at all to substantiate that ?

Paul David
147 Posted 16/05/2012 at 15:19:25

Jimmy

I'll tell you what impressed me about Norwich when they came to Goodison is that they were prepared to get men in the box.

I was pointing out to the people sitting by me the difference between the sides,when Norwich put the ball in the box there was 3,4 even 5 men trying to get on the end of it.At the other end of the pitch we was lucky if we had 1 player trying to get on the end of a cross.

Jay Harris
148 Posted 16/05/2012 at 15:26:48

Neal #380
You are right.

I was thinking that myself after I posted.

Jimmy Kelly
149 Posted 16/05/2012 at 15:25:29

Fair enough Paul, my recollections of the game are slightly different but I take your point.

Just looked it up actually and the following stats suggest we may have had a few people in and around their box afterall http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/16123897

I wasn't criticising Norwich by the way, i'm just not sure they should be held up as a model of great football.

Stephen Kenny
150 Posted 16/05/2012 at 15:33:46

Jimmy I do understand.

But, there isn't a manager about that hasn't had to get rid of a player he wanted to keep at some point. I.e. Ferguson with Ronaldo.

Also, I agree he did build a good squad capable of good football. But when faced with some hard choices I.e. Sell Jagielka or Arteta, he chose JAGIELKA.

Only a fool wouldn't understand the difference that would have on our attacking play and overall game.

If we were so short of creativity and playing good football was a priority of his he would have kept Arteta, who had four years left on his deal.

At the start of this season we were playing diabolical football that was worse than what Swansea and Norwich played.

I believe at that point we still had better players than them and are entitled to expect us to play better than them for that reason.

Do you understand what I'm saying?

Dave,

It was widely reported at the time. Google it. I don't lie to make a point.

I'd guess that those players were costing about a hundred grand a week.

What d'ya reckon Steve Morrison, Grant Holt and James Vaughan are costing?

About a third would be my guess.

Paul David
151 Posted 16/05/2012 at 15:45:25

Jimmy

I dont normally remember games after a couple of weeks but I do remember being more pissed off at the Norwich game than any other and it was for that reason.Norwich were prepared to commit men forward to get a goal while us,the home side with better players didnt.

I read the bbc match report and all it comfirms is that we had chances not that there was 4 or 5 players in the box trying to convert them.

Norwich dont play great football,they play a fast,direct,counter attack style but when they do get forward they do it in numbers which is something we simply didnt do in the first half of the season.

Craig Walker
152 Posted 16/05/2012 at 15:49:40

I think Tony is right on this one that we use the money excuse too often and Moyes' negativity when it mattered meant the season finale felt like a downer. We only seem to perform when the pressure is off and that has been true for years now.

I don't agree that finishing above Liverpool counts as nothing though. It shows that over the course of a season, we were better than them. Fact. For anyone who has to work with a redshite, that matters.

Moyes is at fault for two of their victories over us. We never reappeared after the half-time break at Wembley. I still have nightmares about Distin's backpass. My mum would have done better. The ref is at fault for the Goodison victory. I'll never forgive Moyes for resting 6 at Anfield.

What sums it up for me is a season review in the Observer last Sunday (before the season had actually finished). Fans were asked to assess their clubs' performance over the whole season. The Evertonian fan gave Moyes 8/10 and scored the season 6/10 overall. The RS fan scored the season 6.5/10 and gave Dalglish 10/10. I do get some satisfaction from the fact that they spent all that money and finished below us and are quite pleased with their lot whereas we think it's been a pretty shite season but finished above 'em. Also, if first is first and second's nowhere, where does that make 8th place?

I urge fellow ToffeeWebbers though to do one thing this summmer. Please, please, nobody mention "a possible top 4 finish next season". Anyone who uses this phrase should be forced to do press-ups. We need to learn from getting swept along with positivity. Every time we are close to something, Everton let us down. I predict we'll get drawn at home to someone like Reading for the season opener and we'll lose 1-0 and all those players we've bigged up during the close season will suddenly be not fit to ever wear the blue shirt.

Tony J Williams
153 Posted 16/05/2012 at 15:57:24

"But when faced with some hard choices I.e. Sell Jagielka or Arteta, he chose JAGIELKA" - Eh? He rejected an offer for Arteta and only sold when a transfer request was submitted (I know, I know all the conspiracy theorists will be foaming at the mouth with that one)

How is that, "his" choice? He rejected the offer for Jags, as it was the usual low offer from Mr Burns

Dave Wilson
154 Posted 16/05/2012 at 15:59:32

Your trying to rewrite history again Stephen, Moyes wasnt faced with a choice, Arteta wanted to leave and there was a concrete bid we KNOW that to be fact.

You are dreaming up a bid you cant substantiate, making up a ridiculous fee which Arsenall would never have paid and you are doing it in a rather feeble attempt to claim Moyes actually had a choice - Ateta or Jagielka.

Wont wash.

Tony J Williams
155 Posted 16/05/2012 at 16:03:20

Craig, that is seemingly teh only consistency Everton have, that is to let their fans down.

The money issue doesn't get used to often, because it is relevant. As said many times, there is no coincident that the teams all over the world sitting on top of their respective leagues are usually the highest spenders, none whatsoever.

Man City were a joke club not too long ago, yet after spending close to a billion pounds they have just managed to win the league on goal difference. Rumours already about their better players looking to go elsewhere, Toure wants a more prestigious club!!! cheeky twat, he was a bench warmer at Barca before coming for the big money deal at City.

Back to the point, it is all about the money and to say otherwise, in my mind, suggests that Marshy is a fecking loon......nothing new there then. (insert smillie face so as to not upset his fragile little mind (copyright Cartman).

Denis Richardson
156 Posted 16/05/2012 at 16:04:45

Dave/Tony - am not talking the RS up, just saying that I will not be bragging to any RS mates about finishing above them as their reply will be; cup, cup final, 3 derbies, Europe, which will put me back in my place! If they start however, then I can say 'at least we finished above you'.

However, to be honest I dont think either team should be bragging about finishing 7th and 8th in the league.

The 33 hits on the woodwork was something I stumbled upon and thought it was interesting - it is a lot on the face of it, almost one a game for the whole season. In saying that hardly any of them related to related to Carroll! Still dont know what he and Downing are doing in the England squad. Howard got more goals and assists than downing ffs.

Paul David
157 Posted 16/05/2012 at 16:12:34

Dave

OK but why are Everton left in a situation on the final day of the transfer window that if one player leaves it leaves the entire squad with no creativity.Is that not Moyes's fault?

He could have sold some of his more defensive mined players were we're top heavy earlier in the summer so he could bring in more attacking creative types.He chose not to so its all his fault if all it takes to turn Everton into a tteam that cant pass is for just 1 player to ask to leave.

Dean Adams
158 Posted 16/05/2012 at 16:19:55

So KK has or is leaving the shite. That can only be bad for us
I suspect.

Hahahahahahahaha Yeah whatever!!!!

Matt Traynor
159 Posted 16/05/2012 at 16:19:50

Paul #496 no it is not Moyes fault.

If anyone thinks in the case of Arteta that he demanded a move, fee was agreed, move broke down, he dropped his wage demands and got it through, all on the last day, they are kidding themselves.

The reason they are listed as going through on the last day is so that BK doesn't have to give the funds to Moyes, but instead can give it to one of the many lenders that he has got us in hock to.

Craig Walker
160 Posted 16/05/2012 at 16:35:07

Red shite have just sacked Kenny.

I thought he was doing a great job!

Mark Stone
161 Posted 16/05/2012 at 16:39:44

Gutted Craig. I was certain that he could have taken them down!

James Martin
162 Posted 16/05/2012 at 16:43:05

Lets see Martinez have it as a job audition for here. he can lose the first 8 games and bang on in interviews about how much the players are enjoying training and then get them out of the relegation zone in the last month. Can't quite see Gerrard and co being told what to do by him. This could be a turning point for us and a chance to have some dominance over them, maybe Moyes won't tremble with fear if he sees Martinez in the Anfield dugout, a manager he's beaten countless times before.

Craig Walker
163 Posted 16/05/2012 at 16:49:12

My red shite colleague tells me that Benitez is in the running too. Let's hope so eh?

If Moyes is gonna continue his great derby record then maybe he should jump ship.

Tony J Williams
164 Posted 16/05/2012 at 16:47:10

"OK but why are Everton left in a situation on the final day of the transfer window that if one player leaves it leaves the entire squad with no creativity.Is that not Moyes's fault?" - Probably more to do with the fact we didn't actually buy a player for about 3 years, hence the ironic transfer clock site.

Barry Rathbone
165 Posted 16/05/2012 at 16:51:38

Praying it's Benitez not Martinez.

Martinez has proven he can rebuild, brilliant with the media, gets better under pressure and being Spanish will have no problem attracting players from Spain - presently producing the most gifted players.

As per usual the morons on RAWK are running Martinez down because he's from Wigan saying "pep", "Mourinho" and "rafa".

I fear these FSG guys are learning quickly and won't cave to the mob again - bad news if Martinez ends up there.

Paul David
166 Posted 16/05/2012 at 16:59:39

Tony

If someone knows there are no funds and he has to sell to buy but refuses to for 3 years then yeah its his fault.

Mike Hughes
167 Posted 16/05/2012 at 16:57:57

Sad to see KK leave.

He had most of the attributes we look for in a RS manager: odious and sanctimonious nature, whining disposition and, most of all, beneathus.

Only Rafa can tick all of those particular boxes (well, apart from the majority of RS fans). Here's hoping

Oh, by the way, on the subject of this thread. I agree with your sentiments entirely, Tony. But there'd be even more piss on my chips if they'd finished above us. There is not much to resurrect from this season...but at least that was something (I'm not crowing about it though).

James Martin
168 Posted 16/05/2012 at 17:04:28

Why do people want Benitez back? All those years of guaranteed champions league qualification, a whole host of derby defeats (in fairness this seems to happen whoever the manager). An annoying habit of winning trophies in the jammiest way possible, amazing contacts that could attract the likes of Mascherano, Alonso and Torres? Yes much rather him over Martinez. They'd all unite behind Rafa like some sort of Messiah, they'll all turn on Martinez like they did Hodgson and it will be another year without champions league for them.

Tony J Williams
169 Posted 16/05/2012 at 17:06:21

"If someone knows there are no funds and he has to sell to buy but refuses to for 3 years then yeah its his fault" - You can only sell if someone is buying.

Barry Rathbone
170 Posted 16/05/2012 at 17:07:53

James

Rafa got found out at Inter Milan, he's a money spender who effectively bankrupt liverpool, he buys 10 players to find one Torres.

Ask any Red who isn't a card carrying fantasist and they'll tell you Benitez fucked up in Istanbul and the players sorted it.

In addition he's as mad as a march hare, Fergie had his number all day long.

Bring back rafa.

Mike Hughes
171 Posted 16/05/2012 at 17:11:38

James - towards the end Rafa was despised judging by the phone-ins.

Since that spawny Istanbul bollocks, his star was waning.

He lost the plot - remember the anti SAF rant -FACT.

Then there's the old adage - never go back...

Personally, I don't want them to get Martinez (though I didn't want them to get Roy Hodgson either so what do I know?)

James Martin
172 Posted 16/05/2012 at 17:14:39

Barry Moyes didn't have his number though did he? Couldn't even beat them twice when they had ten men. Reina used to win the golden gloves every season because he built a team that could just crush most teams. I hated him as much as everyone else but do you really want them back in 2 European cup finals in 3 years? Who knows what Martinez might do but he could cock it all up for good for them.

Barry Rathbone
173 Posted 16/05/2012 at 17:18:33

James

With respect I don't think you're comparing like with like, in Rafa's time there was just the SKY 4 and their CL qualification provided the loot to keep them there.

Not like that now, they need rebuilding, how old is Gerrard now 56, 59? won't be long before he's gone and the only other player is Suarez, can't see him hanging around much longer.

They need a builder because they've squandered over 100 million so even if they sell to buy it doesn't put them in the mancs/chelsea bracket - Rafa without money is a dream for us blues.

Martinez is a different ball game.

Andrew Clare
174 Posted 16/05/2012 at 17:31:49

It makes me sad to hear that KD has been sacked because if we had got to two cup finals won one and finished eighth we would have been delighted.
It reminds of how far this great club has fallen. Very sad.

Ray Roche
175 Posted 16/05/2012 at 17:45:56

Andrew,
I'm sad KD has been sacked as well. But for different reasons.

Steven Scaffardi
176 Posted 16/05/2012 at 17:47:52

Just checked the latest odds and some sites have David Moyes as short as 25/1 to be the next RS manager! Total nonsense - where do these people get these odds from?! Capello is also being touted. Didn't do great at England, but I think he'd do a job there so hopefully that one does not come off, although he did say he wants one last shot at club management in England...

Stephen Kenny
177 Posted 16/05/2012 at 18:42:06

Dave,

Wenger has already seen one bid for Jagielka, of around £12m, rejected by Everton but he is preparing a renewed offer that he hopes will force the Merseysiders' hand.
David Moyes, the Everton manager, has made it clear that Jagielka is one of the few players whom he does not want to sell and it may need an extraordinary offer, of upwards of £18m, to tempt him and his directors.

That?s from the Guardian, one of the many reporting the bid at the time. If I was as desperate as you normally are to never concede a point I?d bother myself to go and find the quotes from Wenger. Any Evertonian that had their eyes open last summer will know what was going on.

There can be no doubt Bill and Moyes both knew the amount that had to come in last summer. It was also obvious who Moyes didn?t fancy out of the fringe players. That meant an established player had to go.

The saleable players we had at that time where;

Fellaini, whose contract was low and wouldn?t have commanded a big fee. Hopefully Moyes also knew he was a player to build a team around.

Baines, who had scored 10 goals and created numerous goals the season before. In my eyes a very creative player.

Rodwell, A young player with bags of potential who Moyes had talked about taking over Cahill?s role ACM.

Arteta, our best and most creative player.

According to his biggest supporters we did not have the players to play the game to a decent standard without Arteta.

With the Jagielka bid was refused Moyes knew a more attacking player would go. When the Arteta bid came in Moyes had a clear choice

A) Sell Arteta knowing the quality of football would drop
B) Keep him and have an unhappy player on the books

He knew full well what he was doing and did so happily. The decision he made was done with Arteta?s best interests in mind, not Evertons. He also knows an unhappy Arteta is ten times the player Osman or Coleman will ever be.

He chose function over flair.

Jamie Barlow
179 Posted 16/05/2012 at 19:39:17

Andrew, if Moyes is ever given the money Dalglish has had given to him and finishes 8th, I suspect he'd get the sack too.