Season 2011-12 Fan Articles
Don't look back in anger
By James Martin :: 21/05/2012
52 Comments (»Last)
There's a danger in life of looking back upon certain events or periods of time and judging them through a retrospective scope rather than contemporary viewpoint that existed at the time. I fear that this is a problem that afflicts many of us football fans far too often when assessing the present achievements or failures of our team.
Chelsea's win in Europe has partly inspired me to write what will probably be construed as a defense of David Moyes but is something that I think holds true for most football teams. Putting aside views on 4-5-1, dour Davey, pounds per point ? all those arguments, other lines of arguments are: he was rubbish in Europe, he's rubbish in cups and bottles it in big games, and he can't beat Liverpool.
If you look back, it's so easy to identify these failings and find examples for them but I would argue that they're taken out of the context of the time of the events. It took Chelsea nine years to win the European Cup, even with their players, nine attempts in a row. They had to go through the stage of getting knocked out in early rounds, getting knocked out in the semis (twice), and even losing it most painfully of all in the final. In short, they had to learn to lose it in every way imaginable before they learned to win it.
It's easy to look back on our European campaigns and think that we had the team to go all the way, we should have, Moyes choked away in Florence etc etc, but all I remember thinking at the time was how strange Europe felt, how inexperienced our manager and players were in it, and how novel it felt to even be there. I didn't even fathom the thought that we could win it.
It's the same in the FA Cup, we hadn't had so much of a sniff since 1995 then a final comes around, looking back, this was the first big game for many of the players and the manager in their career, they had no experience of winning the big games whilst Chelsea knew how to.
Same with Liverpool, easy to look back over all the derby defeats and say what a terrible record but I remember before 2004 we hadn't won at Goodison for god knows how long. That 1-0 win was out of the blue as we were used to getting battered by them and not even competing against them. It was celebrated amongst my generation for the rest of the season. Derby wins were so rare, like wins at Elland Road, White Hart Lane, St James's Park were. No one mentions the one last season, the 3-0, or the cup game anymore.
Moyes has changed that, as a rebuttal to all the critics who say we haven't moved forward under him. After the cup quarter-final, my Sunderland supporting mate said, "Everton were always going to win, our team lacked big game experience, it was too soon for them whilst your team looked comfortable at that level."
The cycle of our team is so much further on now than it was when Moyes first came in. Rather than European qualification being a pipe dream, it's now an expectancy... along with the expectancy to do well once we're in it. Derby wins are no longer fondly remembered as one offs every 5 or so years, they're expected every game; that song about super Lee used to make me cringe at how small time it was but you don't hear it any more. Plus the more big games we play the more expectancy and experience we are obtaining.
Cup semi-finals used to be a pipe dream which barely occured. Now we've had two in 4 years and rather than turning up just hoping for a miracle, like we did the first time, we came this year fully expecting in every way to win. Yes, we let it slip, but the onus was on us; we weren't hoping for a lucky set piece win, we expected to control the game and did in the first half before choking in the second. Obviously still too soon for us, as disappointing as that is.
For every year Moyes keeps us at this level, though, we are improving through our collective experience and perhaps next year is when we will progress in our cycle as a team. We've shown a consistency in the league this latter part of the year that we haven't seen in a long time. When we next get to a cup semi or final, most of the players will have played in and lost enough of them to not be awed by the occasion. They'll be expecting to win regardless of the opposition ? and so will we.
Perhaps this view only applies to younger fans; those who lived through the glory days still retain the expectancy that this team is somehow still linked to the one that knew how to win league titles. From what I remember, however, this team has evolved out of the mindset of a team that only used to expect to survive in the league. These 10 years haven't been continuous smooth rapid improvement, but surely the level of expectation, and the frustration inherent within that, is an indicator of how Moyes has shifted the goalposts.
Moyes has many many failings but I defy anyone to argue that we haven't improved underneath him, was anyone expecting a European place (there's even been shouts of top 4 on here) and an FA Cup win at the beginning of the 2002 season? A lot of us are now though. Let's not look back, let's keep looking forward and see if Moyes can build us on to that next level of both expectancy and performance.
Reader Comments (52)
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Stephen Kenny
2 Posted 21/05/2012 at 23:16:59
2 Posted 21/05/2012 at 23:16:59
James what you say is very fair about looking back. And of the sides and managers in with a shout of winning a trophy next year Moyes has undoubtedly been dealt the worst hand in terms of obstacles to overcome.
My attitude towards him has softened. That's mostly down to how we was talking at the end of the season quotes like "7th is never good enough" is what I want to hear from our manager but his actions need to match his rhetoric next season.
He's got us to touching distance of clubs who have spent a lot of money and that's commendable but I think we're capable of a trophy or a good league campaign and if he fucks the start up again then it's time to say goodbye for me.
My attitude towards him has softened. That's mostly down to how we was talking at the end of the season quotes like "7th is never good enough" is what I want to hear from our manager but his actions need to match his rhetoric next season.
He's got us to touching distance of clubs who have spent a lot of money and that's commendable but I think we're capable of a trophy or a good league campaign and if he fucks the start up again then it's time to say goodbye for me.
Derek Thomas
3 Posted 22/05/2012 at 00:19:21
3 Posted 22/05/2012 at 00:19:21
Look back how ever you like, but if you don't take off your James Martin tinted specs all you are confirming is what you thought all along.
It took Chelsea 9 seasons therefore you need experience to play in Europe...total Bollocks, all you need to win any game is better players than them.
Example 1) Everton ECWC 1985 experience prior bugger all.
Example 2, the pre-RS LFC, European Cup, experience prior 10 yrs or so of trying to kick their way out of the 2nd Div.
Derby Co. Villa, Forest, all better players imaginitively managed.
We sometimes have better players who could, on occasion, be more Imaginitively managed.
Does that make me a MOBer, probably no more than your piece makes you an apologist, we are what we are, I know what I am, what are you.
It took Chelsea 9 seasons therefore you need experience to play in Europe...total Bollocks, all you need to win any game is better players than them.
Example 1) Everton ECWC 1985 experience prior bugger all.
Example 2, the pre-RS LFC, European Cup, experience prior 10 yrs or so of trying to kick their way out of the 2nd Div.
Derby Co. Villa, Forest, all better players imaginitively managed.
We sometimes have better players who could, on occasion, be more Imaginitively managed.
Does that make me a MOBer, probably no more than your piece makes you an apologist, we are what we are, I know what I am, what are you.
Andrew James
4 Posted 22/05/2012 at 00:29:58
4 Posted 22/05/2012 at 00:29:58
Good article. But this must be the season where we arrest the poor start. It' s gone beyond a joke. We must be in the top 12 by October or else Moyesy needs to seriously look at himself.
I love the guy but being in the bottom six until late October is getting ridiculous.
I love the guy but being in the bottom six until late October is getting ridiculous.
Andrew James
5 Posted 22/05/2012 at 00:36:42
5 Posted 22/05/2012 at 00:36:42
Derek
You are living in a bygone age I'm afraid.
You are living in a bygone age I'm afraid.
Eric Myles
6 Posted 22/05/2012 at 02:18:13
6 Posted 22/05/2012 at 02:18:13
"that song about super Lee used to make me cringe at how small time it was but you don't hear it any more."
Could that be because we don't have a player named Lee in the team?
Could that be because we don't have a player named Lee in the team?
Eric Myles
7 Posted 22/05/2012 at 02:26:31
7 Posted 22/05/2012 at 02:26:31
"There's a danger in life of looking back upon certain events or periods of time and judging them through a retrospective scope rather than contemporary viewpoint that existed at the time."
Well the last deby game and the semi are pretty contemporary, even the last game against Newcastle (second half).
They are some of the most diabolical tactics I've seen from Moyes in 10 years and if he sends his teams out to perform like that then he deserves all the criticism he gets.
Well the last deby game and the semi are pretty contemporary, even the last game against Newcastle (second half).
They are some of the most diabolical tactics I've seen from Moyes in 10 years and if he sends his teams out to perform like that then he deserves all the criticism he gets.
Jimmy Sørheim
8 Posted 22/05/2012 at 04:10:22
8 Posted 22/05/2012 at 04:10:22
I do not look back in anger, but I now find it stupid to defend Moyes and his terrible starts to each season.
Reading your article you came off like a man insisting to go over the edge of a dock in blind faith.
The 5 months Moyes blunder away each season is a sign of something wrong, after 10 years you should be able to figure out that it is the manager and not the players letting us down.
I see what Moyes has done, but as long as this shitty start goes on hope of change simply is not there anymore.
We need for Moyes to change, if not then he must go for the sake of keeping the fans.
Predictable, is the word I am looking for, and Moyes has become the very meaning of the word.
Why should any fan show up if we already know the result?
Same tactics, same player pickings and lack of young players playing / coming into the first team is like poison for keeping interest up.
Opposition managers now know exactly how Moyes plays, because he never change things around.
I am just speaking for myself here but I would jump at the chance of another manager, it would get me much more interested again.
Reading your article you came off like a man insisting to go over the edge of a dock in blind faith.
The 5 months Moyes blunder away each season is a sign of something wrong, after 10 years you should be able to figure out that it is the manager and not the players letting us down.
I see what Moyes has done, but as long as this shitty start goes on hope of change simply is not there anymore.
We need for Moyes to change, if not then he must go for the sake of keeping the fans.
Predictable, is the word I am looking for, and Moyes has become the very meaning of the word.
Why should any fan show up if we already know the result?
Same tactics, same player pickings and lack of young players playing / coming into the first team is like poison for keeping interest up.
Opposition managers now know exactly how Moyes plays, because he never change things around.
I am just speaking for myself here but I would jump at the chance of another manager, it would get me much more interested again.
Derek Thomas
9 Posted 22/05/2012 at 03:19:01
9 Posted 22/05/2012 at 03:19:01
Andrew #789, au contraire, all I am doing is giving examples from previous experience, aka the past, It's pretty hard to give examples from the future.
The Chelsea example is, imo, false logic, they had better players 3,4,5,6 yrs ago and, if you believe the special one, a better coach, what they didn't have was the luck to get it together on the various nights.
The skill set required to win the Prem vs CL (as oppossed to the actual amount of skill) IS different, that's where the better players imaginatively managed comes in (unlike some one- or two-trick ponies nearer to home).
Now it's true I was BORN in a bygone age and it's true I haven't embraced each and every change and innovation with open arms, but the basics of life and football remain the same.
The key to better results and therefore a reputation as a good coach is and always will be BETTER PLAYERS, but luck, a good or bad bounce, a good or bad decision by refs, the actual will to win, etc etc. (In our case, it is as simple as going out to try to win and not, try not to lose) all have a bearing. Chelsea won, 'the best team on the night' (but not a better team) as the beaten might say.
There always are and always will be teams that will come from 'no where' and sweep all before them, without a massive European pedigree.
The age may be bygone but the message it sends is based on fact.
You never know, it might be us.
The Chelsea example is, imo, false logic, they had better players 3,4,5,6 yrs ago and, if you believe the special one, a better coach, what they didn't have was the luck to get it together on the various nights.
The skill set required to win the Prem vs CL (as oppossed to the actual amount of skill) IS different, that's where the better players imaginatively managed comes in (unlike some one- or two-trick ponies nearer to home).
Now it's true I was BORN in a bygone age and it's true I haven't embraced each and every change and innovation with open arms, but the basics of life and football remain the same.
The key to better results and therefore a reputation as a good coach is and always will be BETTER PLAYERS, but luck, a good or bad bounce, a good or bad decision by refs, the actual will to win, etc etc. (In our case, it is as simple as going out to try to win and not, try not to lose) all have a bearing. Chelsea won, 'the best team on the night' (but not a better team) as the beaten might say.
There always are and always will be teams that will come from 'no where' and sweep all before them, without a massive European pedigree.
The age may be bygone but the message it sends is based on fact.
You never know, it might be us.
James Martin
10 Posted 22/05/2012 at 08:07:24
10 Posted 22/05/2012 at 08:07:24
Eric I meant that we don't sing about anyone putting the ball in the Kopite's net any more. Obviously we odn't have anyone named Lee. Derek i'm not trying to separate who is Moyes out or Moyes in or whatever. There are obvious exceptions to this of course. Eric the three games you mentioned were bad but the most diabolical performances you've ever seen? Really? You need to watch more football if the second half of a hame we won 3-1 was one of the worst you've seen.
Derek you argue that its all about better players only then to claim that Chelsea had better players but didn't win it becaue they didn't get lucky. They didn't get lucky in 8 years? NO they probably didn't but if you give yourself enough chances you increase the likelihood that you will get lucky. If you keep getting to semis and finals you can't choke in them all because you gain the experience of how to win and eventually one falls your way. Look at City in Europe this season, all those players yet they went out in the group stages, even Mancini said that you need 3 or 4 years of playing in that competition to become experienced. There's loads of examples to argue against what I've written, or you could just do what Jimmy does and moan about the tactics and players in every post, but can you refute that we are in a better position expectation wise now than we were when he came in as a result of our bbig game experiences, albeit negative, and the desire to now go and win one?
Derek you argue that its all about better players only then to claim that Chelsea had better players but didn't win it becaue they didn't get lucky. They didn't get lucky in 8 years? NO they probably didn't but if you give yourself enough chances you increase the likelihood that you will get lucky. If you keep getting to semis and finals you can't choke in them all because you gain the experience of how to win and eventually one falls your way. Look at City in Europe this season, all those players yet they went out in the group stages, even Mancini said that you need 3 or 4 years of playing in that competition to become experienced. There's loads of examples to argue against what I've written, or you could just do what Jimmy does and moan about the tactics and players in every post, but can you refute that we are in a better position expectation wise now than we were when he came in as a result of our bbig game experiences, albeit negative, and the desire to now go and win one?
Jason Lam
11 Posted 22/05/2012 at 08:59:32
11 Posted 22/05/2012 at 08:59:32
The semi at the time was diabolical and if retrospective viewing can lessen the pain than I'm all for it but doubt it.
Moyes out today and 5 years later!
Moyes out today and 5 years later!
Richard Dodd
12 Posted 22/05/2012 at 08:29:31
12 Posted 22/05/2012 at 08:29:31
Just one Premier place below the European Champions.Can`t really expect better than that.
Or can we?
Or can we?
Thomas Lennon
13 Posted 22/05/2012 at 10:59:28
13 Posted 22/05/2012 at 10:59:28
I agree. For the door to open to success you need to keep knocking on the door. Overnight success is rare and rapid success VERY expensive.
Negative tactics? Like those Chelsea in the CL final used perhaps? One more goal for Bayern, one less 'big game' player for Chelsea and they would all have been 'useless' 'need new manager' and so on - and they spend hundreds of millions every year.
Moyes has us 'knocking on the door' more often than not against every team nowadays - teams that spend 2-3 times as much as we do on their squads.
Negative tactics? Like those Chelsea in the CL final used perhaps? One more goal for Bayern, one less 'big game' player for Chelsea and they would all have been 'useless' 'need new manager' and so on - and they spend hundreds of millions every year.
Moyes has us 'knocking on the door' more often than not against every team nowadays - teams that spend 2-3 times as much as we do on their squads.
Eric Myles
14 Posted 22/05/2012 at 11:37:44
14 Posted 22/05/2012 at 11:37:44
James, it's probably because in the Newcastle game we resorted to exactly the same tactics as we used in the other 2 games mentioned that had me so annoyed.
I don't care that we were 3-0 up, we should have kept at them and won it 6-0 instead of retreating.
I don't care that we were 3-0 up, we should have kept at them and won it 6-0 instead of retreating.
Paul Foster
15 Posted 22/05/2012 at 11:51:12
15 Posted 22/05/2012 at 11:51:12
"Au contraire, all I am doing is giving examples from previous experience, aka the past, It's pretty hard to give examples from the future." (Derek)
To be fair, Derek, you're giving examples from 30 years ago. Difficult to argue that isn't a bygone age, given how drastically football has changed since the arrival of Sky and billionaire owners.
If we'd seen a Forest or Derby situation in the last decade I'd have been tempted to agree with you. But the fact of the matter is that money has changed the game beyond recognition so examples from the 70s and early 80s are pretty irrelevant.
To be fair, Derek, you're giving examples from 30 years ago. Difficult to argue that isn't a bygone age, given how drastically football has changed since the arrival of Sky and billionaire owners.
If we'd seen a Forest or Derby situation in the last decade I'd have been tempted to agree with you. But the fact of the matter is that money has changed the game beyond recognition so examples from the 70s and early 80s are pretty irrelevant.
James Martin
16 Posted 22/05/2012 at 12:06:58
16 Posted 22/05/2012 at 12:06:58
Eric you're not going to pummel a team like Newcastle 6-0. They're 5th in the table. They're always going to have a spell in any game against any opposition and we had to ride it out. it wasn't a negative retreat, it was controlled containment, a vital part of any match. You can't just thrash everyone 6-0, nice as it would be, the rest of the league isn't just cannon fodder for us to turn over home and away contrary to what people might think.
David Bridge
17 Posted 22/05/2012 at 12:30:19
17 Posted 22/05/2012 at 12:30:19
cant agree with any of the points made in this article. Having watched how poor we were for most of the season Dour Dave has to go his negativity is having a major effect on our team. Jelavic and a bankrupt Rangers saved his job and took pressure off BK!
Andy Crooks
18 Posted 22/05/2012 at 12:53:49
18 Posted 22/05/2012 at 12:53:49
David, no doubt Jelavic and Gibson turned our season around. However to suggest they saved Moye's job is to ignore the fact that he is unsackable. He will be here until he wants to go or until Kenwright goes, whichever comes sooner.
Paul David
19 Posted 22/05/2012 at 12:51:18
19 Posted 22/05/2012 at 12:51:18
Theres no doubt we're better off now than when Moyes took over but imo we have been slowly going backwards the last years. Will this continue or not? Who knows... but, like I have said loads, I will never ever ever forgive him for Anfield ? never mind Wembley.
Stephen Kenny
20 Posted 22/05/2012 at 13:41:04
20 Posted 22/05/2012 at 13:41:04
To suggest Jelavic saved Moyes job is ridiculous, he didn't sign himself. Noe did Gibson who at half a mill or whatever he cost.
When given decent funds he has built decent sides, sometimes a bit better than decent.
Whether he can go the next mile, which is the hardest, and win something is where the question marks lie.
When given decent funds he has built decent sides, sometimes a bit better than decent.
Whether he can go the next mile, which is the hardest, and win something is where the question marks lie.
Kunal Desai
21 Posted 22/05/2012 at 13:45:00
21 Posted 22/05/2012 at 13:45:00
Lets all be honest here, with the squad that we have, little or no money and a relatively small squad, we are likely to again finish next season 7th at best. Nothing has or will change on the investment front. The Shite will most probably finish above us and perhaps Newcastle below us, barring those positional changes I expect those that finished above us to do the same next season. We haven't a hope in hells chance to knock on the top 4 unless Arsenal drastically go backwards, although we may get closer to Spurs if they lose Modric and Bale. Much of the same next season, folks.
Dennis Stevens
22 Posted 22/05/2012 at 13:54:56
22 Posted 22/05/2012 at 13:54:56
Sadly, Stephen, for me there are no question marks. I'm more certain that we won't win anything whilst Moyes is manager than I am that we won't be relegated whilst he's in charge. Of course, I'd love to be proved wrong.
Stephen Kenny
23 Posted 22/05/2012 at 14:03:54
23 Posted 22/05/2012 at 14:03:54
Dennis I've felt like that for a while.
I think the lack of funds has really bothered him and when he's got a cob on it shows in our performances.
That said, I can understand his cob on's to some degree when teams are buying leagues, European cups and even the Carling Cup cost £100m, and your struggling to get 10 bob together.
I think the lack of funds has really bothered him and when he's got a cob on it shows in our performances.
That said, I can understand his cob on's to some degree when teams are buying leagues, European cups and even the Carling Cup cost £100m, and your struggling to get 10 bob together.
Tony J Williams
24 Posted 22/05/2012 at 14:23:11
24 Posted 22/05/2012 at 14:23:11
How did Jelavic save his job? I reckon Jelavic. Pienaar and Gibson and to a lesser extent Doovan got us up to 7th. We were not going to get relegated and as someone above said, Davie is in a very safe job. Kenwright expects nothing and that's what he has been delivered.
Jim Knightley
25 Posted 22/05/2012 at 14:54:08
25 Posted 22/05/2012 at 14:54:08
Eric, teams let off. It is what happens. It is rare for a team to score alot in one half, and then follow with a similar display in the next. The highest scorers in this division, City, frequently closed things down in the latter part of the match tactically, and when teams don't, i.e Arsenal, it often leads to negative results.
Jimmy, are you so naive to think there are no other reasons, about from the manager, why we start poorly (and we havent started poorly in every season, that is a fallacy).
Firstly, beyond any additional factors, teams have form periods. Some start well, others end well; every season illustrates such patterns. Spurs were an archetype of it this season, with a massive dichotomy between the first and second parts of their season.
Apart from that, possible reasons for our bad starts:
Constant speculation about top players leaving, based on an inability to compete financially with others, and thus obvious squad and morale effects.
A significant lack of incoming players. This has an obvious morale effect, but more importantly, with an eroding squad, we are not replacing players who are leaving or getting worse (i.e the likes of Cahill). Did you actually think we would start this season well?! we had no creativity bar Osman and a disinterested Billy! and no striker capable of scoring with consistency (Saha is, and was, past it).
Why, in your monomaniacal dislike of our manager, do you not consider these effects?
Moyes could take some blame a few seasons back, although even there were other circumstances, but I do not know how you expected a great start with the team we had. What were we at the half-way mark? 10th/11th? it was indicative of the quality of our squad, which was only amended with the introductions of Pienarr, Jelavic, Donovan and Gibson. Those four players at the start of the season would have led to a better performance.
Jimmy, are you so naive to think there are no other reasons, about from the manager, why we start poorly (and we havent started poorly in every season, that is a fallacy).
Firstly, beyond any additional factors, teams have form periods. Some start well, others end well; every season illustrates such patterns. Spurs were an archetype of it this season, with a massive dichotomy between the first and second parts of their season.
Apart from that, possible reasons for our bad starts:
Constant speculation about top players leaving, based on an inability to compete financially with others, and thus obvious squad and morale effects.
A significant lack of incoming players. This has an obvious morale effect, but more importantly, with an eroding squad, we are not replacing players who are leaving or getting worse (i.e the likes of Cahill). Did you actually think we would start this season well?! we had no creativity bar Osman and a disinterested Billy! and no striker capable of scoring with consistency (Saha is, and was, past it).
Why, in your monomaniacal dislike of our manager, do you not consider these effects?
Moyes could take some blame a few seasons back, although even there were other circumstances, but I do not know how you expected a great start with the team we had. What were we at the half-way mark? 10th/11th? it was indicative of the quality of our squad, which was only amended with the introductions of Pienarr, Jelavic, Donovan and Gibson. Those four players at the start of the season would have led to a better performance.
Peter Warren
26 Posted 22/05/2012 at 15:46:17
26 Posted 22/05/2012 at 15:46:17
Think we were in quarter finals when moyes took over, he has got past that twice on 10 years. Point to the league by all means but his cup record including Europe is terrible
Jim Harrison
27 Posted 22/05/2012 at 15:53:17
27 Posted 22/05/2012 at 15:53:17
peter, Two FA cup semi finals and one league cup final in 4 years is pretty good compared to all but the top teams, who have spent vast sums more. As for league placement the team has achieved a reasonable level of consistency. With teams like Stoke, Liverpool and Sunderland spending vastly more this last season Moyes work in keeping us ahead deserves credit.
I dont believe he is perfect, but over the last 10 years he has raised expectations. Not to mid 80s levels, but as stated before, that was a different era. Buying the likes of Lineker back then would equate to buying a 15 million plus striker now, and odds on if we had that sort of money Moyes would be getting quality players and pushing the club forwards.
I dont believe he is perfect, but over the last 10 years he has raised expectations. Not to mid 80s levels, but as stated before, that was a different era. Buying the likes of Lineker back then would equate to buying a 15 million plus striker now, and odds on if we had that sort of money Moyes would be getting quality players and pushing the club forwards.
Adam Cunliffe
28 Posted 22/05/2012 at 16:25:47
28 Posted 22/05/2012 at 16:25:47
Sorry Jimmy, but Moyes can't be that predictable as Pardew, AVB, Redknapp and Mancini all got found wanting post January.
I agree that Moyes needs a kick up the arse at the start of every season, but this Moyes is predictable stuff doesn't wash with me. Slag him off when he's shite but praise him when he's good. That's fair enough right?
He was shite vs Liverpool 3 times this season so we, as paying customers have every right to be critical. But he also sent out a team that scored 4 at Old Trafford, that deserves praise just as much!
On the whole I like Moyes. I have 1 or 2 moments every season whereby I want him out. Then I sit and think about it all and shit myself as to where we'd be without him. But then again I was 11 months old last time we won a trophy, possibly highlighting the generation gap between the fans.
Success to me is totally different to that of people twice my age.
I agree that Moyes needs a kick up the arse at the start of every season, but this Moyes is predictable stuff doesn't wash with me. Slag him off when he's shite but praise him when he's good. That's fair enough right?
He was shite vs Liverpool 3 times this season so we, as paying customers have every right to be critical. But he also sent out a team that scored 4 at Old Trafford, that deserves praise just as much!
On the whole I like Moyes. I have 1 or 2 moments every season whereby I want him out. Then I sit and think about it all and shit myself as to where we'd be without him. But then again I was 11 months old last time we won a trophy, possibly highlighting the generation gap between the fans.
Success to me is totally different to that of people twice my age.
James Stewart
29 Posted 22/05/2012 at 17:13:15
29 Posted 22/05/2012 at 17:13:15
Sorry don't agree. Against Sporting and Benfica we were totally put in our place. I have never been as embarrassed watching us play than that. Moyes was simply out of his depth. I hope he has learned a lesson from it but only time will tell
Dennis Stevens
30 Posted 22/05/2012 at 17:04:09
30 Posted 22/05/2012 at 17:04:09
".. Pardew, AVB, Redknapp and Mancini all got found wanting post January" - not too sure what you mean there, Adam. If you draw up League tables for each half of the season Manchester City top both of them, Newcastle United are 7th in the first half & 3rd in the second half. Everton are 9th & 5th respectively, so our first half of the season obviously feels much worse to many than it actually turned out.
Ray Roche
31 Posted 22/05/2012 at 17:50:55
31 Posted 22/05/2012 at 17:50:55
Regarding our "usual" slow start.
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
Moyes, let's start our season at the beginning, eh?
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
Moyes, let's start our season at the beginning, eh?
Adam Cunliffe
32 Posted 22/05/2012 at 17:58:54
32 Posted 22/05/2012 at 17:58:54
Dennis,
Just that people beat Moyes with this predictable, negative stick, yet he's set out teams to beat Newcastle, Chelsea, Spurs and City so obviously the better managers of the premier league can't seem to predict him THAT well!
Just that people beat Moyes with this predictable, negative stick, yet he's set out teams to beat Newcastle, Chelsea, Spurs and City so obviously the better managers of the premier league can't seem to predict him THAT well!
Dennis Stevens
33 Posted 22/05/2012 at 18:02:25
33 Posted 22/05/2012 at 18:02:25
I see what you mean, Adam. Mind you, it could just mean that Moyes predictability doesn't render his approach totally ineffective. I'm sure everbody felt they could predict what Dixie Dean was going to do with the ball but it didn't make him any less effective at doing it.
Barry Rathbone
34 Posted 22/05/2012 at 17:59:43
34 Posted 22/05/2012 at 17:59:43
?One's past is what one is. It is the only way by which people should be judged.?
Oscar Wilde
Deliberately hiding from past success shows fear of comparison in the future.
Rationalising mediocrity isn't for me.
Oscar Wilde
Deliberately hiding from past success shows fear of comparison in the future.
Rationalising mediocrity isn't for me.
Paul David
35 Posted 22/05/2012 at 18:20:11
35 Posted 22/05/2012 at 18:20:11
Adam
I disagree about him sending out teams to beat City, Chelsea and Spurs. Spurs twatted us and we were lucky; the other two were hard-fought wins against teams that never turned up.
I disagree about him sending out teams to beat City, Chelsea and Spurs. Spurs twatted us and we were lucky; the other two were hard-fought wins against teams that never turned up.
James Martin
36 Posted 22/05/2012 at 19:32:23
36 Posted 22/05/2012 at 19:32:23
Paul you could rationalise any loss or away draw like that. We didn't deserve to draw at Stoke or Wolves but we did yet for some reasons they are just indicators of odur dreary dave but all his wins against big sides are lucky, or are because they didn't turn up. How else do you beat them? If we turn up and they turn up their 100s of millions count and we lose, the only chance you have is turning up when they don't, or can't because you tactically stifle them. Chelsea were in bad form and we beat them, Man City weren't but Moyes found a way to win, we also battered Tottenham in the first half and then admittedly hung on. Equally why do people say 'I'll never forgive him for....' yet never say 'I'll never criticise him after......'. Moyes gets battered for every single negative about him yet his positives are either not mentioned or explained away.
Paul David
37 Posted 22/05/2012 at 19:39:21
37 Posted 22/05/2012 at 19:39:21
James
I agree that if we were on form and City and Chelsea were then chances are we would get beat.What I meant was I think Moyes set out to contain them teams not to attack them as Adam made out.
There has to be a point were anyone does anything in any part of life that is so bad that whatever they do will ever make up for it,for me that happened at Anfield.
Also I dont think he has ever done anything that amazing were he deserves me to say "i'll never criticise him after".
I agree that if we were on form and City and Chelsea were then chances are we would get beat.What I meant was I think Moyes set out to contain them teams not to attack them as Adam made out.
There has to be a point were anyone does anything in any part of life that is so bad that whatever they do will ever make up for it,for me that happened at Anfield.
Also I dont think he has ever done anything that amazing were he deserves me to say "i'll never criticise him after".
David Bridge
38 Posted 22/05/2012 at 20:15:51
38 Posted 22/05/2012 at 20:15:51
Of course Jelavic saved Moyes! There was a large sway of supporters who wanted Moyes out pre-January, even the diehard Moyes supporters. Then Rangers go bust, they are forced to sell, and we start semi competing... not good enough for most of us but all we deserve whilst mediocrity reigns.
Dennis Stevens
39 Posted 22/05/2012 at 20:20:26
39 Posted 22/05/2012 at 20:20:26
I still haven't forgiven Moyes for The pitiful performance away to Sporting Lisbon!
Peter Mills
40 Posted 22/05/2012 at 20:23:44
40 Posted 22/05/2012 at 20:23:44
I believe David Moyes has done a lot for the club, he represents it well and instills good values into the players. At times he can have us playing good football, although I wasn't thinking that at Wigan in January. Nor in the second half at Wembley.
But he is very slow to learn his lessons. If we played a half decent team in Europe now, I can't help thinking he would make just the same naive errors he made in Lisbon and Florence. What did he learn and change following the 1989 cup final, apparently very little judging by what we saw in April?
Most of us are challenged in our work by our employers. Could you do something differently, better? It can be very productive, even when we think we are doing well. I doubt anyone is challenging David in that way.
For the record, I want him to stay, but want him to develop, go a step beyond stability. Maybe he needs the guts to sign a couple of opinionated winners - I don't know who, but then I wouldn't have signed Peter Reid or Andy Gray.
But he is very slow to learn his lessons. If we played a half decent team in Europe now, I can't help thinking he would make just the same naive errors he made in Lisbon and Florence. What did he learn and change following the 1989 cup final, apparently very little judging by what we saw in April?
Most of us are challenged in our work by our employers. Could you do something differently, better? It can be very productive, even when we think we are doing well. I doubt anyone is challenging David in that way.
For the record, I want him to stay, but want him to develop, go a step beyond stability. Maybe he needs the guts to sign a couple of opinionated winners - I don't know who, but then I wouldn't have signed Peter Reid or Andy Gray.
Jim Knightley
41 Posted 22/05/2012 at 20:54:06
41 Posted 22/05/2012 at 20:54:06
Get use to mediocrity; we have no money to be anything other than average, or worse. And negativity is entirely subjective...we beat Chelsea, City, Spurs and Newcastle and played well doing so...but these results are disregarded because they do not suit an argument...or manipulated to diminish the performances. We can pick the awful results/performances from the start of the season, or the great results/performances from the end. But the fact is, seventh, for a team of our financial position and capacity was an achievement, as was reaching the FA cup semi-final, even though we were largely disappointing in it.
I also find it incredible that people are bringing up old big european games, against teams with better players. Seriously? I mean, it is just stupid. Our team did not have European experience! nor our manager. The only way of getting that experience, is by playing in Europe regularly, which is beyond us until we change owners. How did Man City do in Europe this season? They failed in both the Champions League and UEFA cup didn't they? Most teams build up a basis of success over time. Playing away in Italy, or Portugal, is not something our players were use to, and Europe is completely different to the domestic game, as proved by Chelsea's experienced squad this season, who utterly failed in the league.
It is beyond pathetic to talk about a manager in negative terms because of one result. If everyone did that, there would not be a top manager in football left with any support.
I also find it incredible that people are bringing up old big european games, against teams with better players. Seriously? I mean, it is just stupid. Our team did not have European experience! nor our manager. The only way of getting that experience, is by playing in Europe regularly, which is beyond us until we change owners. How did Man City do in Europe this season? They failed in both the Champions League and UEFA cup didn't they? Most teams build up a basis of success over time. Playing away in Italy, or Portugal, is not something our players were use to, and Europe is completely different to the domestic game, as proved by Chelsea's experienced squad this season, who utterly failed in the league.
It is beyond pathetic to talk about a manager in negative terms because of one result. If everyone did that, there would not be a top manager in football left with any support.
Kevin Tully
42 Posted 22/05/2012 at 21:22:37
42 Posted 22/05/2012 at 21:22:37
No-one can argue that Moyes has not had the time at Everton to mold the team into his vision of modern football.
After ten years we are looking at HIS footballing philosophy. Regardless of who has come or gone - the attitude and execution are all his, instilled in the side over many years.
He has had a free hand in all footballing matters, and a salary most can only dream of. There has been no short-term pressure on his position, and this could be part of the problem. If he thought he would lose his job if he had one more awful start - maybe they would not be as frequent.
If any manager has ten years at a club, and a £50m wage bill, I expect more than fourty points as our primary ambition at the start of every season.
He should be under pressure to produce results and decent football, not start attacking after we are safe from relegation.
Groundhog football.
After ten years we are looking at HIS footballing philosophy. Regardless of who has come or gone - the attitude and execution are all his, instilled in the side over many years.
He has had a free hand in all footballing matters, and a salary most can only dream of. There has been no short-term pressure on his position, and this could be part of the problem. If he thought he would lose his job if he had one more awful start - maybe they would not be as frequent.
If any manager has ten years at a club, and a £50m wage bill, I expect more than fourty points as our primary ambition at the start of every season.
He should be under pressure to produce results and decent football, not start attacking after we are safe from relegation.
Groundhog football.
Dennis Stevens
43 Posted 22/05/2012 at 21:23:25
43 Posted 22/05/2012 at 21:23:25
It's not the result Jim, it's the performance. When we played Sporting Lisbon they were low on confidence after a run of poor results & even their own supporters were anticipating Everton would knock them out, hence the less than full stadium on the night. However, once the match started it was apparent we were content to let them have ownership of the ball & most of the pitch & unsurprisingly they grew in confidence as the game progressed - greatly encouraged by the fact that on the rare occasion we got the ball only token efforts were made to score the away goal we should have been seeking. I'd still be interested to understand how Moyes figured we would score any goals whilst seemingly only allowing a couple of players at a time into the opposition half.
Moyes approach is effective over the course of a league season & comfortably maintains our position in the top flight, now & again we might get the bonus of a trip into Europe. Unfortunately, I don't think his approach will ever lead to silverware & I doubt he has the capacity to adapt & improve. I just don't think he has what it takes to be a winner. It'd be interesting if he ever had some real money behind him, but I suspect it wouldn't make much difference to his approach.
Moyes approach is effective over the course of a league season & comfortably maintains our position in the top flight, now & again we might get the bonus of a trip into Europe. Unfortunately, I don't think his approach will ever lead to silverware & I doubt he has the capacity to adapt & improve. I just don't think he has what it takes to be a winner. It'd be interesting if he ever had some real money behind him, but I suspect it wouldn't make much difference to his approach.
Jim Knightley
44 Posted 23/05/2012 at 12:51:30
44 Posted 23/05/2012 at 12:51:30
Kevin, 50mil wage bill in the Premier league (which incidentally was our bill a couple of season's ago, with a bigger squad and before we shipped out a few bigger earners) is mid-level in the Premier League. And why do you assume our target is only to get clear of relegation? do you also assume that Mancini really thought his team couldnt win the title? and didn't Moyes recently say seventh was not good enough or something along those lines?
And one thing Kevin, and please answer this...Didn't Moyes' 'football' and strategy turn a team with a relegation squad, into regular european challengers? finish regularly above teams with bigger budgets, both in wages and transfers than us? Doesn't sound like a failed blueprint to me....we haven't kicked on for one reason, and one reason alone, and it is overtly financial.
Dennis, yet again I don't know why you are pointing to one result in exclusion, especially an away game...Europe is difficult, and poor run or not, Lisbon were a very good side with far greater European experience than our team. Such performances are common in Europe and football. It's hardly like it is an Everton issue is it? I've seen Mourinho, Ferguson and a host of other top teams play in a similar way over recent seasons with alot less reason to do so.
And I cant see how it is assumed Moyes wouldnt do better with more money...every season, we have performed better than we should in the league. We operate on a shoestring, yet Moyes' transfer record, whilst supplying some failures, is one of the most impressive in the division. If we had had the budget of Liverpool, Chelski or Spurs over the past 10 years, we would have won a trophy, and we would have made the champions league group stages. We haven't so far, because we are severly outgunned, and lack a team with big game experience.
And one thing Kevin, and please answer this...Didn't Moyes' 'football' and strategy turn a team with a relegation squad, into regular european challengers? finish regularly above teams with bigger budgets, both in wages and transfers than us? Doesn't sound like a failed blueprint to me....we haven't kicked on for one reason, and one reason alone, and it is overtly financial.
Dennis, yet again I don't know why you are pointing to one result in exclusion, especially an away game...Europe is difficult, and poor run or not, Lisbon were a very good side with far greater European experience than our team. Such performances are common in Europe and football. It's hardly like it is an Everton issue is it? I've seen Mourinho, Ferguson and a host of other top teams play in a similar way over recent seasons with alot less reason to do so.
And I cant see how it is assumed Moyes wouldnt do better with more money...every season, we have performed better than we should in the league. We operate on a shoestring, yet Moyes' transfer record, whilst supplying some failures, is one of the most impressive in the division. If we had had the budget of Liverpool, Chelski or Spurs over the past 10 years, we would have won a trophy, and we would have made the champions league group stages. We haven't so far, because we are severly outgunned, and lack a team with big game experience.
Kevin Tully
45 Posted 23/05/2012 at 13:16:08
45 Posted 23/05/2012 at 13:16:08
There is one " acid test " of how any modern day manager / player are percieved in the footballing world Jim.
And until Moyes is offered a job at one of the big clubs i.e. Chelsea, Man U, Man City, Arsenal, a big club abroad or a high profile International post - I think it proves he is not a good as you would like to believe Jim.
Even Hodgson got to a European final.
And until Moyes is offered a job at one of the big clubs i.e. Chelsea, Man U, Man City, Arsenal, a big club abroad or a high profile International post - I think it proves he is not a good as you would like to believe Jim.
Even Hodgson got to a European final.
Dennis Stevens
46 Posted 23/05/2012 at 13:33:02
46 Posted 23/05/2012 at 13:33:02
Ir may surprise you to read this, Jim, but I'm well aware that Everton lack the financial clout of some of our rivals.
My view of Moyes, both the good & bad points, are not opinions formed in a vacuum, where all things are considered equal. I'm actually aware that Moyes doesn't have hundreds of millions of pounds to spend every transfer window. I agree that one of Moyes's strengths is his ability to pick up a player for relatively little who turns out to be more than good value for money, interestingly, the less he has to spend the better he seems to do.
I agree that, with more funding and probably a deeper squad, we could well be regular challengers or a CL spot. However, I don't see the reasoning that makes you think Moyes + money = trophies. If that were the case, I doubt he would still be our manager. In your previous post, you refer to top managers & the harsh truth is that Moyes has not, as yet, proved himself to be one ? I doubt he ever will.
My view of Moyes, both the good & bad points, are not opinions formed in a vacuum, where all things are considered equal. I'm actually aware that Moyes doesn't have hundreds of millions of pounds to spend every transfer window. I agree that one of Moyes's strengths is his ability to pick up a player for relatively little who turns out to be more than good value for money, interestingly, the less he has to spend the better he seems to do.
I agree that, with more funding and probably a deeper squad, we could well be regular challengers or a CL spot. However, I don't see the reasoning that makes you think Moyes + money = trophies. If that were the case, I doubt he would still be our manager. In your previous post, you refer to top managers & the harsh truth is that Moyes has not, as yet, proved himself to be one ? I doubt he ever will.
Dave Wilson
47 Posted 23/05/2012 at 13:57:53
47 Posted 23/05/2012 at 13:57:53
"Deliberately hiding from past success, shows fear of comparisons of the future"
"rationalising mediocrity isnt for me"
Another TW`r goes all Gwladys Knight on us.
"Could it be that it was all so simple then" . . . .Help me out Barry lad, whats that next line again ?
"rationalising mediocrity isnt for me"
Another TW`r goes all Gwladys Knight on us.
"Could it be that it was all so simple then" . . . .Help me out Barry lad, whats that next line again ?
Jim Knightley
48 Posted 23/05/2012 at 14:40:13
48 Posted 23/05/2012 at 14:40:13
LoL, guys! Do you not think there is rationality to our mediocrity, Dave?
And Dennis, my assumption is based on the only evidence we have available to us: past seasons' performances with lesser means.
No one here can deny that Moyes has improved this team considerably, and consolidated us as a top half team. The teams above us have all won trophies in the last decade, (minus Newcastle for Liverpool), and let me ask Dennis, why wouldn?t Moyes also have won a trophy with comparable means? It doesn?t connote that I think he is the greatest manager in England, just that he is a very good manager.
Harry has performed no miracles, none of Liverpool managers have either. They?ve spent money and got the success they should have achieved, or in the case of Spurs and Liverpool for much of the time, have underachieved. Do you think Moyes is a much worse manager than Harry and Dalglish, or Benetiz, Grant and Houillier, who all won trophies?
He has vastly improved our team on a minimal budget, and consistently over-achieves, yet if we had the vastly bigger budgets of our rivals... we wouldn?t win a trophy? I also don?t see Dennis, how you think we would challenge for a Champions League Spot regularly with a bigger budget but wouldn?t win a trophy... it seems highly contradictory.
Let me ask you, would any of you consider Sunderland a failure for not winning a trophy? Or Villa? Or Fulham? We are at there level, not those of the teams above us; get use to it. If we had money, I believe we would have won a trophy. Moyes is not Ferguson, Mourinho or Wenger. But he is as good or better than the numerous managers that have come and gone in the teams just above us. If we had the budget of our rivals, we would win trophies.
I won't use net (which is far more favourable for my argument) but gross spend. In the last 8 years, We?ve had a gross spend of £114 million. Spurs have spent £308 million, Liverpool £393million, and both had better teams when they were spending the money. City have spent £550million, Chelsea over £600million, United £317million and only Arsenal, with £200million, have really bucked the trend, and they?ve been trophy-less for some time.
Do you really think, if we had £200million more talent in our side, if we could buy players who were at their peak and used to winning trophies, that we couldn?t have managed one?
It is not the manager, it is the money.
And Dennis, my assumption is based on the only evidence we have available to us: past seasons' performances with lesser means.
No one here can deny that Moyes has improved this team considerably, and consolidated us as a top half team. The teams above us have all won trophies in the last decade, (minus Newcastle for Liverpool), and let me ask Dennis, why wouldn?t Moyes also have won a trophy with comparable means? It doesn?t connote that I think he is the greatest manager in England, just that he is a very good manager.
Harry has performed no miracles, none of Liverpool managers have either. They?ve spent money and got the success they should have achieved, or in the case of Spurs and Liverpool for much of the time, have underachieved. Do you think Moyes is a much worse manager than Harry and Dalglish, or Benetiz, Grant and Houillier, who all won trophies?
He has vastly improved our team on a minimal budget, and consistently over-achieves, yet if we had the vastly bigger budgets of our rivals... we wouldn?t win a trophy? I also don?t see Dennis, how you think we would challenge for a Champions League Spot regularly with a bigger budget but wouldn?t win a trophy... it seems highly contradictory.
Let me ask you, would any of you consider Sunderland a failure for not winning a trophy? Or Villa? Or Fulham? We are at there level, not those of the teams above us; get use to it. If we had money, I believe we would have won a trophy. Moyes is not Ferguson, Mourinho or Wenger. But he is as good or better than the numerous managers that have come and gone in the teams just above us. If we had the budget of our rivals, we would win trophies.
I won't use net (which is far more favourable for my argument) but gross spend. In the last 8 years, We?ve had a gross spend of £114 million. Spurs have spent £308 million, Liverpool £393million, and both had better teams when they were spending the money. City have spent £550million, Chelsea over £600million, United £317million and only Arsenal, with £200million, have really bucked the trend, and they?ve been trophy-less for some time.
Do you really think, if we had £200million more talent in our side, if we could buy players who were at their peak and used to winning trophies, that we couldn?t have managed one?
It is not the manager, it is the money.
Dennis Stevens
49 Posted 23/05/2012 at 15:07:02
49 Posted 23/05/2012 at 15:07:02
That's why you think there's a contradiction, Jim. I don't think it's just the money, it's the manager as well. Hence the idea that with greater resources Moyes could do what he does to somewhat better effect & thereby move up the table & regularly challenge for CL spots. Nonetheless, Moyes would still be Moyes & so I'd still have no expectation that he could deliver any actual silverware. Maybe one day we'll find out for sure, but then again, maybe not - how many mangerial changes at clubs with big money to spend have we seen in the last decade & yet Moyes is still at Everton.
Barry Rathbone
50 Posted 23/05/2012 at 18:34:54
50 Posted 23/05/2012 at 18:34:54
Dave 223
"has time re-written every line"
Now ain't that the truth Davey boy, top club we were, morose in mid table we are.
Well..... some of us aren't happy a number quite clearly are, you're good with numbers Dave I'll leave it to you to work it out.
"has time re-written every line"
Now ain't that the truth Davey boy, top club we were, morose in mid table we are.
Well..... some of us aren't happy a number quite clearly are, you're good with numbers Dave I'll leave it to you to work it out.
Dave Wilson
51 Posted 23/05/2012 at 19:29:34
51 Posted 23/05/2012 at 19:29:34
You see Barry SOME of us really do remember,
We remember the thinking the trophies would flow as we entered the 70`s
We remember having to wait 14 fucken years for it to come.
We remember how (with the exception of one glorious day in May 95 ) we have suffered the twenty five years of shite.
I envy you and your kind Barry
Whats too painful to remember, You seem to be able to "simply choose to forget "
We remember the thinking the trophies would flow as we entered the 70`s
We remember having to wait 14 fucken years for it to come.
We remember how (with the exception of one glorious day in May 95 ) we have suffered the twenty five years of shite.
I envy you and your kind Barry
Whats too painful to remember, You seem to be able to "simply choose to forget "
Dennis Stevens
52 Posted 23/05/2012 at 22:47:01
52 Posted 23/05/2012 at 22:47:01
- Mammaries may be beautiful, and yet ...
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1 Posted 21/05/2012 at 23:01:56