Season 2011-12
The Mail Bag
Going forward
72 Comments: What will happen looking on to the next games? Will Moyes start using Vellios more than 5 minutes, or will he go for the so-called safe approach?
I believe we have to start using what we have got, and at the moment we only have Vellios who clearly looks hungry for goals ? as we are. Cahill is not a striker and the sooner Moyes realises that the better.
Moyes said that he is afraid to use Vellios and other youngsters, but he is starting to see what has to be done; you have to use what you have and what we have in Vellios is a new Duncan Ferguson, only he shows that he can be a better finisher than Duncan was.
I understand I am being overly positive but I belive that he has shown enough for him to start the next game against Wigan. After all, we don't have anyone else at the moment. Hallam Hope is not considered yet, and Denis Stracqualursi clearly has a long, long way to go before being match fit, as shown when he was at Leicester.
They saw that he was not even close to being match fit and didn't have the time to give him that; that is why they bought Beckford who, after all, had proven that he can perform at the highest level.
Now we only have Saha as a clear striker favourite but, as always, he is not fit enough, and that will only continue, believe me. So Moyes has to start thinking forward to a day without Saha, because that day has already arrived.
Whether he likes it or not, this club has to move on and the only way forward is by using our youngsters who are not too far away from what we have in Saha.
I am only talking about Midfield and Forward positions because that is where we have the young talents. Barkley and Vellios will have to be used more and more this season if we are to plug the holes left by Arteta and Beckford.
Now I am not saying Barkley will replace Arteta through and through but, if we are ever to go forward, then we at least have to start with Barkley and Vellios. Gueye can be the next one in, but I have to take issue with Moyes and his reason for not using Vellios more than he has this season.
Barkley I agree needs time after his injury but Vellios showed Moyes against Villa that he is making a big mistake for not using HIM!
Jimmy Sorheim, Posted 14/09/2011 at 07:47:48
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Don't fucking start me on the Moyes soundbites. The man needs to grow a set and start putting out some youngsters to freshen up his stale and predictable tactics.
"Afraid to use Vellios and other youngsters". ? What a gobshite.
Owen, Fowler, Rooney, Beckham, Scholes, add names at will. Never did any of them any harm playing in their teens.
Agree with most of what you say, Jimmy, but what is it that Velios has done that would make Moyes realise he has made a 'big' mistake in not starting him? When he came on against tired Villa defenders, he brought a bread and butter save from Given, and before that rounded him before not even directing the ball on target of the open goal. Moyes see's him every day. I do think he will get more time against Wigan, but would be surprised if it was a start. The team that started on saturday played very well. I would think the most likely change would be Billy out, Drenthe in, but I wouldnt put money it.
Jimmy totally agree mate.We should start with Velios against Wigan - the lad has something about him good touch and powerful.
Would also like to see Barclay in his true position in central midfield.Its time to be bold and build on the positives from Saturday.
Would also like to see Barclay in his true position in central midfield.Its time to be bold and build on the positives from Saturday.
If your good enough your old enough. Simple. We are not a team who can have the luxury of deciding to ween players.
I remember Moyes doing this with Rooney. When Rooney signed for United. He was thrown in the deep end.
I remember Moyes doing this with Rooney. When Rooney signed for United. He was thrown in the deep end.
I was reading a fan report about the Everton reserves against Villa and they stated that Straq could be good but didn't suit the lone striker position. I am not sure what purpose, other than fitness and experimenting with formations, the reserves are for. My point is why not play Straq and Vellios in the reserve team together and see how it pans out? Surely there is nothing to lose and plenty to gain with that theory.
I do see a pattern of Moyes not using Strikers to there best ability and formations and it drives me nuts! Barkley and Baines are our best players and Fellaini is coming on strong but I fear that all three will be gone by the end of the season , if not sooner. Will all the anti Blue Union people be singing Kenwright's praises when that happens?
I do see a pattern of Moyes not using Strikers to there best ability and formations and it drives me nuts! Barkley and Baines are our best players and Fellaini is coming on strong but I fear that all three will be gone by the end of the season , if not sooner. Will all the anti Blue Union people be singing Kenwright's praises when that happens?
Dan,
I agree with you that Vellios is an unknown quantity but just the few things he did against tired Villa defenders is more than Anichebe does against any one and Moyes sees Anichebe everyday too. It just seems Moyes is just to stubborn and only plays his favourite players in his favourite formations.
I agree with you that Vellios is an unknown quantity but just the few things he did against tired Villa defenders is more than Anichebe does against any one and Moyes sees Anichebe everyday too. It just seems Moyes is just to stubborn and only plays his favourite players in his favourite formations.
Hahaha so Velios has shown you in 5 mins of footbal and no goals that he can be a better finisher than Duncan Ferguson?
Moyes knows what he is doing, everyone wants to rush Moyes and the youngster into action when it is Moyes who sees them in training every day, it is Moyes who knows them on a personal level who can try to read a players mental stregnth to cope with expectations and 38 000 people analysing your every movement.
Lets not forget, Moyes has probably played more 16 and 17 year olds in the top flight of English football than any manager in the last 20 years, certainly the last 10.
He played Rooney at 16 who responded in the right manner and got better and better, he played Vaughn at 16 who has suffered with injuries ever since, he played Baxter and James Wallace at 16 but dont appear to have had the maturity to continue their progress mentally or physically. He played Rodwell at 16 but again he has not developed in the way we hoped which i believe is because of the the weight of expectations from the fans and the media, which is now affecting his confidence, on top of this he has had to play out of position because of lack of other options and not knowing his prefered positions.
So is it Moyes fault for "destroying youngsters" like Rodwell Vaughn and Baxter, or is it the fans for putting pressure on them wanting them play too early and putting too high a hopes on them when they are not mentaly or physically able to cope.
Barkely would also have been played at 16 only for his terrible injury, but is now getting his chance having played big part in every game so far. So will people please get off Moyes back for not giving the youngsters a chance when evidence clearly shows he does.
Moyes knows what he is doing, everyone wants to rush Moyes and the youngster into action when it is Moyes who sees them in training every day, it is Moyes who knows them on a personal level who can try to read a players mental stregnth to cope with expectations and 38 000 people analysing your every movement.
Lets not forget, Moyes has probably played more 16 and 17 year olds in the top flight of English football than any manager in the last 20 years, certainly the last 10.
He played Rooney at 16 who responded in the right manner and got better and better, he played Vaughn at 16 who has suffered with injuries ever since, he played Baxter and James Wallace at 16 but dont appear to have had the maturity to continue their progress mentally or physically. He played Rodwell at 16 but again he has not developed in the way we hoped which i believe is because of the the weight of expectations from the fans and the media, which is now affecting his confidence, on top of this he has had to play out of position because of lack of other options and not knowing his prefered positions.
So is it Moyes fault for "destroying youngsters" like Rodwell Vaughn and Baxter, or is it the fans for putting pressure on them wanting them play too early and putting too high a hopes on them when they are not mentaly or physically able to cope.
Barkely would also have been played at 16 only for his terrible injury, but is now getting his chance having played big part in every game so far. So will people please get off Moyes back for not giving the youngsters a chance when evidence clearly shows he does.
I`m certain Davey will go with last week`s team and will be working the defence hard this week to ensure we don`t concede `sloppy goals` again!Velios is very much `one for the future`!
Agree with you Ian. I'd like to see youngsters get more game time but this clamour for Vellios wasn't there before the Villa game.
Don't know why Rodwell hasn't improved but any youngster worth a future at Everton gets his place eventually.
For the record the Cahill-Osman combo worked well, as was the whole performance so no complaints on the same again.
Don't know why Rodwell hasn't improved but any youngster worth a future at Everton gets his place eventually.
For the record the Cahill-Osman combo worked well, as was the whole performance so no complaints on the same again.
The lad is just a kid. We've heard all this before - Jeffers, Cadamarteri, Branch, Anichebe, Vaughan. If he's good enough he'll succeed.
I was never Big Dunc's biggest fan but to say he could be a better finisher than Big Dunc or that he could be the new Big Dunc, after coming on for 5 minutes, is ridiculous.
I was never Big Dunc's biggest fan but to say he could be a better finisher than Big Dunc or that he could be the new Big Dunc, after coming on for 5 minutes, is ridiculous.
Ian most of the times Moyes has played youngsters its been forced upon him through injuries not through some masterstroke of genius, as quickly as he played Rooney he dropped him. In all the time Moyes has been here the one thing you can safely bet on and thats a safety first approach with old heads playing before youth unless he has no other choice.
Its an old flawed argument that Moyes sees the lads every day when he took three months to put Coleman back on the pitch after his cameo against Spurs and when fit that spot is pretty much his now.
I expect Bily to drop to the bench and Drenthe to play as the only change from last week with another late showing for Vellios and possibly Gueye, the only other possible change would be Neville for Hibbert.
Its an old flawed argument that Moyes sees the lads every day when he took three months to put Coleman back on the pitch after his cameo against Spurs and when fit that spot is pretty much his now.
I expect Bily to drop to the bench and Drenthe to play as the only change from last week with another late showing for Vellios and possibly Gueye, the only other possible change would be Neville for Hibbert.
Gavin Moyes would have dropped Rooney for his own good to keep his feet on the floor, the environment he was from he could have easily gone off the rails thinking he had made it and eventually imploded. People thought he was the next Gazza waiting to happen especially with all the stories of grannies. The hype around Rooney was bigger than anything i have seen in English football and it could easily have destroyed him. Rooney might have looked like a tough 30 year old man who could carry the weight of the nation on his back but in reality he was a 16 year old. Moyes was trying to protect him and Evertons future.
Haha your dammed if you do and your dammed if you dont on here, you say
"most of the times Moyes has played youngsters its been forced upon him through injuries not through some masterstroke of genius,"
Not really you dont need to be a genius to see Rooney and Barkley have talent. He wasnt forced into playing Rooney either, there where other options he just knew he was good enough to start. Baxter Wallace. Rodwell, Vaughn and Anichebe were also not forced they were just given a chance in cup games like most teams do with their youth, and if they play well and can handle the pressure they will be given a chance in the league.
Other teams that have small squads dont go plaing their youngster as much as Moyes has. I can only think of Leeds playing Milner and Lenon when they were short which i believe was inspired by Moyes playing Rooney, otherwise Venables or who ever at the time might not have even considered playing his youth.
Maybe Barkley was forced to play against QPR because we litrally had no wingers or attack minded players available but eveyone knows Barkely was on the bench last season and would have played long ago only for injury.
Instead of criticising Moyes "for playing youngsters only when forced upon him," how about we praise Moyes for getting by without the resources to buy first team players and having to rely on the youth.
Instead of criticising Moyes about Coleman, how about we praise him for buying Coleman in the first place for £60 000 and palying him with him eventually being put in the list of best young players in the prem.
Too may moaners on here, just look at the bigger picture for a change and stop being so short sighted!
Haha your dammed if you do and your dammed if you dont on here, you say
"most of the times Moyes has played youngsters its been forced upon him through injuries not through some masterstroke of genius,"
Not really you dont need to be a genius to see Rooney and Barkley have talent. He wasnt forced into playing Rooney either, there where other options he just knew he was good enough to start. Baxter Wallace. Rodwell, Vaughn and Anichebe were also not forced they were just given a chance in cup games like most teams do with their youth, and if they play well and can handle the pressure they will be given a chance in the league.
Other teams that have small squads dont go plaing their youngster as much as Moyes has. I can only think of Leeds playing Milner and Lenon when they were short which i believe was inspired by Moyes playing Rooney, otherwise Venables or who ever at the time might not have even considered playing his youth.
Maybe Barkley was forced to play against QPR because we litrally had no wingers or attack minded players available but eveyone knows Barkely was on the bench last season and would have played long ago only for injury.
Instead of criticising Moyes "for playing youngsters only when forced upon him," how about we praise Moyes for getting by without the resources to buy first team players and having to rely on the youth.
Instead of criticising Moyes about Coleman, how about we praise him for buying Coleman in the first place for £60 000 and palying him with him eventually being put in the list of best young players in the prem.
Too may moaners on here, just look at the bigger picture for a change and stop being so short sighted!
Here here Ian Tunstead!
Well said Ian (8) & (13) sheer common sense.
I like the look of Vellios..Even from his little cameos last season you could see there was something there..
Reminds me of a young Chris Sutton..
Will Moyes play him? Who knows...probably as a left back.
Reminds me of a young Chris Sutton..
Will Moyes play him? Who knows...probably as a left back.
By the way, heres the team I'd play next:
Howard
Hibbert.....Heitinga.....Distin.....Baines
............................Fellaini
..................Rodwell....Barkley
Coleman....................................Barkley
...........................Vellios
Assuming Saha is knackered/tired/emotional...
Howard
Hibbert.....Heitinga.....Distin.....Baines
............................Fellaini
..................Rodwell....Barkley
Coleman....................................Barkley
...........................Vellios
Assuming Saha is knackered/tired/emotional...
I know Barkley's good but...
As much as i'd like two Barkleys...I wouldn't play one of them out of position..obviously, the left wing Barkley should be Drenthe..
haha..too quick for me there Michael...
Like the look of that side Ciarán, but i think it would be unfair to drop Osman and Cahill after their performances against Villa.
From last weeks team i would drop Bily for Drenthe and would look to throw Barkley, Vellios and Gueye on between 60-70 mins depending on how the game was going. Assuming Saha and Heitinga are both knackered/tired/emotional.
From last weeks team i would drop Bily for Drenthe and would look to throw Barkley, Vellios and Gueye on between 60-70 mins depending on how the game was going. Assuming Saha and Heitinga are both knackered/tired/emotional.
The size of the squad will mean the youngsters will get more pitch time than in previous seasons despite Moyes' naturally cautious approach with them. Injuries, suspensions and the age of certain players must surely eat away at the availability of his first choices. Moyes is cautious, not stupid so his lowering of expectations as to where we will finish is probably right. Whilst I would normally criticise Moyes for not giving youth a chance over his favourites, or taking the opportunity to give them a feel of the action ( Neville on a sub at 75 mins v Sheff Utd?) I think we can sit back this season and watch young players prove some of us right and some of us wrong. There is plenty of ability in the squad and it will at times be pepped up with young legs and enthusiasm which may leave us pleasantly surprised at where we finish. Bit of a win win scenario for Davey boy. Hopefully he will develop along with whatever success he has with them. I wonder what will be the first names on the team sheet this time next year? Circumstances are forcing change. And I am optimistic.
Ian Rooney was boxing at a very early age and could look after himself before he became a household name in this country.
Old whiskey nose made a very common sense statement the other day about his current crop of kids and thats if they can play they will and age doesnt matter.
Rooney was ready and could have carried on playing, Moyes benching him pissed him off no end but his head had been turned as his fame rose and I dont believe in hindsight benching him or not would have kept him at Bankrupt FC. Barkley is another example where he should be playing but monitored closely for fatigue and as far as meaningless internationals be held back as club is far more important and he's less likely to get tapped up a la Rooney.
I like the look of Velios compared to Anichebe but agree with you that its very far fetched to be making claims of him being better than Ferguson, he does look more useful than Anichebe but he is yet to score a senior goal in the league so lets wait and see shall we.
Finally, moaners is a subjective term Ian, just as apologist is, its all down to opinions, mine is Moyes is far too cautious and predictable and it really would hurt to learn at least one new trick.
Old whiskey nose made a very common sense statement the other day about his current crop of kids and thats if they can play they will and age doesnt matter.
Rooney was ready and could have carried on playing, Moyes benching him pissed him off no end but his head had been turned as his fame rose and I dont believe in hindsight benching him or not would have kept him at Bankrupt FC. Barkley is another example where he should be playing but monitored closely for fatigue and as far as meaningless internationals be held back as club is far more important and he's less likely to get tapped up a la Rooney.
I like the look of Velios compared to Anichebe but agree with you that its very far fetched to be making claims of him being better than Ferguson, he does look more useful than Anichebe but he is yet to score a senior goal in the league so lets wait and see shall we.
Finally, moaners is a subjective term Ian, just as apologist is, its all down to opinions, mine is Moyes is far too cautious and predictable and it really would hurt to learn at least one new trick.
If we are going to move forward as a club then we need to decide what the future is. If the board are going to sell any more players for debts then do it now, or identify who will replace them. We have a list half as long as the squad of potential players to be sold yet i bet there is not plan for after the next rich club who bids for them.
It needs to be done across the board as well. Basically Moyes needs to say right joe, mike and carl are ok to sell in the future, however this is the team i want in 5 years time. That way until a buyer is found everyone at the club knows where they stand and Moyes can plan that far ahead rather than wait until 11pm on august 31st to know what he has.
It needs to be done across the board as well. Basically Moyes needs to say right joe, mike and carl are ok to sell in the future, however this is the team i want in 5 years time. That way until a buyer is found everyone at the club knows where they stand and Moyes can plan that far ahead rather than wait until 11pm on august 31st to know what he has.
.......................Howard
Coleman...Jags...Distin...Baines
.......................Fellaini
Gueye...Barkley...Osman...Drenthe
..........................Saha
Bench: Neville, Bily, Heitinga, Cahill, Vellios
How do you like them apples?
Coleman...Jags...Distin...Baines
.......................Fellaini
Gueye...Barkley...Osman...Drenthe
..........................Saha
Bench: Neville, Bily, Heitinga, Cahill, Vellios
How do you like them apples?
I agree Dave Lynch (#2) and Ciarán McGlone (#16) made me laugh that but it's true, Moyes just loves to play his players in any position other than their natural position.
I've given up on Saha tbh we need to get rid and get the wage bill down. Vellios just needs to be given a chance.
I've given up on Saha tbh we need to get rid and get the wage bill down. Vellios just needs to be given a chance.
Applause to you Chris Ashton, you are the only person here who seem to get the idea of what is to come next for us now. Everybody else just seems to want to stick with Cahill and Neville, and both of them will be too old in a few years anyway. We need to start thinking about tomorrow's players.
Now as I said I am overly positive when stating Vellios has better finishing than Duncan had..Reason I say this is because I see more of a finisher than a strong man in the air.
There is something about him and I am more positive when it comes to youngsters then Moyes is, for example Alex Ferguson is more of a manager of my heart than Moyes currently is. Those too conservative, how about saying what you think needs to be done now after Arteta and Beckford is sold? A solution to the problem would be nice. Hardly think you mean to say that Cahill needs to be a permanent striker, and that Neville needs to be left winger.
Let's have it Mr Ian Tunstead...
Gavin what has Rooney being an amature boxer as a child got to do with anything. A lot of people have done some boxing, judo, Karate, kick boxing, what does that prove? And even if that meant he could phsically look after himself that doesnt mean that he could handle things mentally.
Knowbody could possibly imaging on here what it is like to be a 16 year old kid with the world watching you, the nation and you boyhood club relying on you to pull you out the shit. Not even coinsidering all the unsavoury characters that he would no doubt start to attract and try to take his eye off the ball, excuse the pun. I'm sure Gazza and George Best could look after themselves as well and so can Andy Carrol for that matter. That doesnt mean they dont need protecting from themselves and the bad charadters they might attract.
Lets have what Jimmy? I dont want to stick with Neville and Cahill either for much longer and neither does Moyes that is why Neville was dropped last game and Cahill the previous game and Arteta was alowed to move on.
He is slowly edging them out and if it hadnt of been for injuries i am sure Coleman Gueye would have both played in all the games so far. Barkley has played in evey game so far and Vellios has been introduced. So what is the point you are trying to make? He has done every thing you want to see.
Knowbody could possibly imaging on here what it is like to be a 16 year old kid with the world watching you, the nation and you boyhood club relying on you to pull you out the shit. Not even coinsidering all the unsavoury characters that he would no doubt start to attract and try to take his eye off the ball, excuse the pun. I'm sure Gazza and George Best could look after themselves as well and so can Andy Carrol for that matter. That doesnt mean they dont need protecting from themselves and the bad charadters they might attract.
Lets have what Jimmy? I dont want to stick with Neville and Cahill either for much longer and neither does Moyes that is why Neville was dropped last game and Cahill the previous game and Arteta was alowed to move on.
He is slowly edging them out and if it hadnt of been for injuries i am sure Coleman Gueye would have both played in all the games so far. Barkley has played in evey game so far and Vellios has been introduced. So what is the point you are trying to make? He has done every thing you want to see.
Ian the point I tried to make is that Rooney wasnt just some kid, he was and still is pretty naive but to make out he was some gullible angel is well wide of the mark and was pretty streetwise even at 16.
Regards protecting the players 24/7 in cotton wool it just isnt going to happen as they are adults who if they decide to will just go off and do their own thing.
Regards protecting the players 24/7 in cotton wool it just isnt going to happen as they are adults who if they decide to will just go off and do their own thing.
Well we all know now with the benefit of hindsight Gavin, but i dont think it did Rooney too much harm the way Moyes handled him considering he broke nearly every record he could along the way, achieved almost every possible ambition he could.
He has also apologised to Moyes for his behaviour and thanked Moyes for helping him in his development.
I'm not making out Rooney was a gullible angel, why would an angel be in brothels at 16 years old? But he proved he was a gullible kid by being brain washed by his agent.
You say
"it just isnt going to happen as they are ADULTS who if they decide to will just go off and do their own thing. "
According to law, Rooney was a child so perhaps he did need wrapping in cotton wool.
He has also apologised to Moyes for his behaviour and thanked Moyes for helping him in his development.
I'm not making out Rooney was a gullible angel, why would an angel be in brothels at 16 years old? But he proved he was a gullible kid by being brain washed by his agent.
You say
"it just isnt going to happen as they are ADULTS who if they decide to will just go off and do their own thing. "
According to law, Rooney was a child so perhaps he did need wrapping in cotton wool.
Cahill is a shoe-in and Cahill and Osman looked more effective than any other partner Tim has had up front since I don`t know when.
I`d like to see Drenthe given a start but Bily did well enough to merit another start, didn`t he? Same as for me.....
Moyes handled Rooney perfectly, if he had of played every game we might be seeing another Owen and Robbie Fowler, on there way out in their mid to late 20's crippled by injuries with a fraction of the pace they had when they began. Instead we watch Rooney in the form of his Manchester Utd career.
If Moyes had of started Rooney every game like you wanted him to, would he have scored that amazing last minute winner agaist Arsenal? I think if he had of started, the with the experience of that back line at Arsenal, one of them would have gone right through the back of him in the first minute which might have meant a different ending to the story.
Instead Moyes decides to throw him on agaist tired legs when the likes of Sol Campbell would be less likley to cloes players down due to fatigue and exhastion, giving Rooney that extra bit of space and that extra second to control the ball and compose himself before smashing the ball into the back of the net. Great management in my book.
If Moyes had of started Rooney every game like you wanted him to, would he have scored that amazing last minute winner agaist Arsenal? I think if he had of started, the with the experience of that back line at Arsenal, one of them would have gone right through the back of him in the first minute which might have meant a different ending to the story.
Instead Moyes decides to throw him on agaist tired legs when the likes of Sol Campbell would be less likley to cloes players down due to fatigue and exhastion, giving Rooney that extra bit of space and that extra second to control the ball and compose himself before smashing the ball into the back of the net. Great management in my book.
BTW does anyone know why Saha is out
David Hallwood
He accidentally lifted a feather last week, tweeking a muscle in the process!!!!!!!!!!
He accidentally lifted a feather last week, tweeking a muscle in the process!!!!!!!!!!
Saha is out with a torn sock!
John Wilson, I like them apples very much but i'd be shitting meself everytime the oppo got the ball down their left!
Moyes has given youth a chance and I think the old charge that he falls back on his "stale" favourites is a little unfair.
Vaughan - we were cruising at Selhurst Park and he brings on the youngster. Great management. He then continued to keep giving him game time here and there around his numerous injuries. He was a project for Moyes and rarely thrown on with pressure on his shoulders. Most of the time he came on to simply get him experience or a boost of a possible goal as a sub (like Alkmaar or Palace for instance)
Anichebe - again was ushered in with a taste of the action at the end of the 05/06 campaign I believe. The management of him during the UEFA cup run when he was scoring all those injury time goals was excellent.
Gosling - Moyes realised he was a live wire and in he went, getting games and quickly returning the favour with goals.
Coleman - Everyone goes on about the Spurs game. But they are forgetting the Benfica match. Moyes was careful with him and now we have the benefit.
Rooney - Moyes only needed to look at Jeffers, Ball and Cadamateri to realise that Rooney needed resting here and there. Let's face it, he did get quite a few little injuries so over exposure would only have made them worse. But we are also forgetting how flipping volatile Rooney was for us. He was cocky, prone to poor tackles and threw a few players down. Playing him all the time would have increased the card count.
Then there's twice I've seen Moyes in Europe playing the youth team which has made for fascinating or hilarious viewing (Alkmaar still makes me giggle as our motley crew broke their unbeaten record and watching McFadden having to carry Gravesen and Shandy as he reluctantly ran after every ball because they were too fat)
Finally, much of it is circumstance. 2006-2009 we presided over quite a lot of decent thumpings. Half a dozen times a season the margin might be 3 or 5 more. In those conditions, it was easier to blood the youngsters. In the last two seasons, the margins are narrow so Moyes has not had the luxury of experimenting a little.
Vaughan - we were cruising at Selhurst Park and he brings on the youngster. Great management. He then continued to keep giving him game time here and there around his numerous injuries. He was a project for Moyes and rarely thrown on with pressure on his shoulders. Most of the time he came on to simply get him experience or a boost of a possible goal as a sub (like Alkmaar or Palace for instance)
Anichebe - again was ushered in with a taste of the action at the end of the 05/06 campaign I believe. The management of him during the UEFA cup run when he was scoring all those injury time goals was excellent.
Gosling - Moyes realised he was a live wire and in he went, getting games and quickly returning the favour with goals.
Coleman - Everyone goes on about the Spurs game. But they are forgetting the Benfica match. Moyes was careful with him and now we have the benefit.
Rooney - Moyes only needed to look at Jeffers, Ball and Cadamateri to realise that Rooney needed resting here and there. Let's face it, he did get quite a few little injuries so over exposure would only have made them worse. But we are also forgetting how flipping volatile Rooney was for us. He was cocky, prone to poor tackles and threw a few players down. Playing him all the time would have increased the card count.
Then there's twice I've seen Moyes in Europe playing the youth team which has made for fascinating or hilarious viewing (Alkmaar still makes me giggle as our motley crew broke their unbeaten record and watching McFadden having to carry Gravesen and Shandy as he reluctantly ran after every ball because they were too fat)
Finally, much of it is circumstance. 2006-2009 we presided over quite a lot of decent thumpings. Half a dozen times a season the margin might be 3 or 5 more. In those conditions, it was easier to blood the youngsters. In the last two seasons, the margins are narrow so Moyes has not had the luxury of experimenting a little.
Jimmy, are you suggesting that Moyes has some mysterious as yet unknown alternative to safety first?
What's all this talk of our future players?
The lads are paid to play now.
Some of them are good enough to play now.
Play them now Moyes, for God's sake!
The lads are paid to play now.
Some of them are good enough to play now.
Play them now Moyes, for God's sake!
I agree with Ciarán re the out of position stuff... but I think Andrew James makes some really valid points.
It seems to me Baxter's never really been given a chance upfront which is where I thought he was reportedly best. Admitedly in the West brom game a few years back he looked lost ? but he's not been given a great deal since.
We have to use our players to their and therefore our strength. Liverpool aren't scared of burning out their young players, yet our secret weapons all too often remain untraceable WMDs before disappearing altogether (perhaps that's a bit harsh, I appreciate conversion from Youth to Senior squad sheds loads).
It seems to me Baxter's never really been given a chance upfront which is where I thought he was reportedly best. Admitedly in the West brom game a few years back he looked lost ? but he's not been given a great deal since.
We have to use our players to their and therefore our strength. Liverpool aren't scared of burning out their young players, yet our secret weapons all too often remain untraceable WMDs before disappearing altogether (perhaps that's a bit harsh, I appreciate conversion from Youth to Senior squad sheds loads).
Fully agree with Ian Tunstead.
Sure we have some very good youngsters and they do need to get some game time as they are the future. However, throwing youngsters in, especially in the Prem Lge, needs to be done carefully, otherwise it can be counter productive. They need to get used to the pace and physicality of the game.
They need to be introduced gradually which is basically what Moyes is doing.
Specifically about Vellios, I don't think he should start but should be introduced a little earlier in the game and, if it merits, give him more game time.
Sure we have some very good youngsters and they do need to get some game time as they are the future. However, throwing youngsters in, especially in the Prem Lge, needs to be done carefully, otherwise it can be counter productive. They need to get used to the pace and physicality of the game.
They need to be introduced gradually which is basically what Moyes is doing.
Specifically about Vellios, I don't think he should start but should be introduced a little earlier in the game and, if it merits, give him more game time.
The problem with our youngsters is there is no-one with the nouse to coach them. Steve 'dodgy earpiece' Round was a defender, like Moyes and Stubbs, and considering Hibbert gets a game in a league about 4 divisions higher than his ability shows they know nothing about defending either.
A positive ex-forward might be what is needed at Funny Farm and maybe a book about tactics and the need to keep an unchanged and balanced side as much as possible. We can all run through the great Everton sides of the late 60s and 80s but try and pick the side Moyes will put out next week?
Will Neville be playing, if he is (and he is the club captain) will it be in defence or midfield? Will Heitinga ever get to play in his natural position? Will Osman be a winger, striker or in CM? And what other club plays without strikers? No wonder our players are confused and look out of sorts and want to get away to a normal club.
Coleman - Everyone goes on about the Spurs game. But they are forgetting the Benfica match. Moyes was careful with him and now we have the benefit.
The poor kid was thrown in out of position at left back in a Europa League match against a winger who would spend the following transfer window being incessantly linked with a move to Manchester United. I don't see how anyone could hold that against him and yet people always use that as the reason why he was held back when the Spurs display epitomised everything he went on to offer the team in his right position.
The truth as I see it is, just like Baines having to wait forever to displace Lescott, Moyes stuck to what he felt was a tried and true (but dull) alternative in Phil Neville until the clamour for Seamus to play was too hard to ignore. Conveniently, there was a vacuum in right midfield for him to fill instead.
The poor kid was thrown in out of position at left back in a Europa League match against a winger who would spend the following transfer window being incessantly linked with a move to Manchester United. I don't see how anyone could hold that against him and yet people always use that as the reason why he was held back when the Spurs display epitomised everything he went on to offer the team in his right position.
The truth as I see it is, just like Baines having to wait forever to displace Lescott, Moyes stuck to what he felt was a tried and true (but dull) alternative in Phil Neville until the clamour for Seamus to play was too hard to ignore. Conveniently, there was a vacuum in right midfield for him to fill instead.
@ shaun # 5 "I remember Moyes doing this with Rooney. When Rooney signed for United. He was thrown in the deep end. "
He was an England international by the time he joined Utd!
He was an England international by the time he joined Utd!
I agree with Richard #1, we'll play 4-6-0 again, after all it's the mighty Wigan visiting Goodison this week and we don't want to lose a point.
One thing's for sure, our local reporter will tell it how it is. Not.
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/everton-fc/everton-fc-news/2011/09/15/david-prentice-visits-the-dixie-dean-suite-at-everton-s-goodison-park-and-enjoys-some-fine-dining-100252-29423895/2/
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/everton-fc/everton-fc-news/2011/09/15/david-prentice-visits-the-dixie-dean-suite-at-everton-s-goodison-park-and-enjoys-some-fine-dining-100252-29423895/2/
I think Cahill with Osman behind seemed to work pretty well, with the likes of Gueye and Vellios coming on depending on how things are going....
Ian Tunstead - "Moyes handled Rooney perfectly". Absolutely cannot agree with that. I can remember the absolute frustration of knowing we had one of the most exciting prospects in world football and he started so many games ON THE BENCH!!! He should have been playing every game, no doubt. What exactly were we protecting him for? Man Utd?
Did the most successful manager in the premier league feel he had to protect him and gradually bring him into the team? Did he fuck. Straight in at the deep end in a Champions League game and Rooney repaid him with a hat-trick.
On the Vellios point. I was calling for him to start on another post here prior to the Villa game. I feel he looked decent and deserves a chance. I'm basing this on what I saw of him in cameos last season and in longer stints in pre-season.
Did the most successful manager in the premier league feel he had to protect him and gradually bring him into the team? Did he fuck. Straight in at the deep end in a Champions League game and Rooney repaid him with a hat-trick.
On the Vellios point. I was calling for him to start on another post here prior to the Villa game. I feel he looked decent and deserves a chance. I'm basing this on what I saw of him in cameos last season and in longer stints in pre-season.
I saw him live on a couple of occasions and was excited by him. He looks big and powerful, but has a good touch, works hard, cab hold up a ball and lay it off well (which we need someone to do well because of how we play) and most importantly he seems to have a good shot, powerful too. He needs to be given a proper chance, not 5 mins, and I feel Wigan at home is the perfect opportunity to do that. He may start; I'm not holding my breath though!
Danny Biddle [44] - do you remember the joke that Rooney was good enough to play for England but not good enough to play for Everton?
Kevin [46] - didn't know Prentice was a food critic now as well as a salesman.
While we are talking about our young strikers, I notice that Joao Silva has started well with two goals in two games in the Portuguese top division...
Vellios and Silva next season?
Vellios and Silva next season?
Dave Lynch #2 "Owen, Fowler, Rooney, Beckham, Scholes, add names at will"
Ok
Danny Cadamerteri, Michael Branch, Franny Jeffers, Billy Kenny.
Ok
Danny Cadamerteri, Michael Branch, Franny Jeffers, Billy Kenny.
I'm not bothered if it's Vellios, Saha or Strac, just as long as we play at least one natural striker up front against Wigan FFS!
My team for the weekend:
Southall
Cafu Baresi Moore Maldini
Ronaldo Mattheus Zidane Cruyff
Puskas Anichebe
Southall
Cafu Baresi Moore Maldini
Ronaldo Mattheus Zidane Cruyff
Puskas Anichebe
Ian 32#
"Moyes handled Rooney perfectly, if he had of played every game we might be seeing another Owen and Robbie Fowler, on there way out in their mid to late 20's crippled by injuries with a fraction of the pace they had when they began. Instead we watch Rooney in the form of his Manchester Utd career".
Correct me If I am wrong but isn't it Moyes's job to get the best out of all players for Everton, in this case he didn't, he has got the best out of Rooney for MUFC.
Terrible management in my book; burn them out if they are not going to be at Everton (Highly Likely) before we sell them on for a bloated fee.
"Moyes handled Rooney perfectly, if he had of played every game we might be seeing another Owen and Robbie Fowler, on there way out in their mid to late 20's crippled by injuries with a fraction of the pace they had when they began. Instead we watch Rooney in the form of his Manchester Utd career".
Correct me If I am wrong but isn't it Moyes's job to get the best out of all players for Everton, in this case he didn't, he has got the best out of Rooney for MUFC.
Terrible management in my book; burn them out if they are not going to be at Everton (Highly Likely) before we sell them on for a bloated fee.
James #54
Anichebe and Puskas are too similar, not sure that'd work. I'd pair Anichebe with Eusebio
Anichebe and Puskas are too similar, not sure that'd work. I'd pair Anichebe with Eusebio
But Puskas is left footed - I think he'll compliment Anichebe's rapier-like right foot finishing, work rate and Shearer-esque hold-up play.
Vellios done well for 10 mins whereas Cahill has been superb for years... I know who I would prefer upfront.
Half of you here sound like RS fans rating players after 10 minute cameos, i will wait for at least 10 games thanks.
I have even seen Anichebe look decent in a 10 minute spell and we all know how much he's rated. If anything Cahill is more dangerous when he plays upfront as he doesn't get in the more creative players way and he's great at annoying defenders dragging them out of their comfort zone and oh yea he gets goals.
Half of you here sound like RS fans rating players after 10 minute cameos, i will wait for at least 10 games thanks.
I have even seen Anichebe look decent in a 10 minute spell and we all know how much he's rated. If anything Cahill is more dangerous when he plays upfront as he doesn't get in the more creative players way and he's great at annoying defenders dragging them out of their comfort zone and oh yea he gets goals.
David, i dont think Moyes realised that Rooney was going to end up at Man Utd, after all he did say "once a blue always a blue!" So i think moyes was expecting rooney to be playing at everton for a very long time, as we all did. We can all sit back now and be cynical with the benefit of hindsight and say we all new he was on his way to Man Utd byt i think that would be a lie.
I disagree Ian, I think only the most optimistic of blues ever thought Rooney would do a Le Tissier.
There is an argument that surrounds that the way we do not rush our youth through to burnout means we're more likely to attract youngsters... but at the same time if we do not use them, then they will simply seek opportunities elsewhere.
There is an argument that surrounds that the way we do not rush our youth through to burnout means we're more likely to attract youngsters... but at the same time if we do not use them, then they will simply seek opportunities elsewhere.
Hey might as well ask here.. has anyone a transcript of the Baxter interview?? I'm really curious to how he feels he is perceived by the club and if they expect anything of him...
Mark Stone @52.
The names you laughingly quote where not good enough for any prem team.
Time has proven that, the names i mentioned all turned out to be world class players.
So what the fuck is your point ?
The names you laughingly quote where not good enough for any prem team.
Time has proven that, the names i mentioned all turned out to be world class players.
So what the fuck is your point ?
Ian - Moyes absolutely knew, like the rest of us, that there wasn't a hope in hell that Rooney would be staying with us for his career. Are you trying to convince us or yourself?
Keith Meighan - calling evertonians RS because they would like to see a stale team shaken up a bit and a youngster given a chance?? Just what the fuck is the rationale behind that?
Keith Meighan - calling evertonians RS because they would like to see a stale team shaken up a bit and a youngster given a chance?? Just what the fuck is the rationale behind that?
Those of you saying that Cahill should start the next game because he scores goals should ask themselves, when was the last time he found the net. It was almost a year ago. Now say what you want about Vellios but he has not been given the same amount of time as Anichebe and if he did then he would have scored more then 1 goal, that I can bet my left hand on. The resistance on giving young players a chance is wrong. The situation we are in demands Moyes to start using them or lose due to not having a real striker in the team. Say what you want about Cahill but he is not a striker and he has never impressed as one before nor will he in the future.
No matter how much we dicuss this the only guy who can do something about it is Moyes.
All I can do then is wait and see. Until then, Go Vellios!
No matter how much we dicuss this the only guy who can do something about it is Moyes.
All I can do then is wait and see. Until then, Go Vellios!
Jimmy, are you right handed?
Also, who set up Osman's goal?
There isn't resistence, he obviously isn't as good as people who have seem him miss one shot in 5 minutes think he is.
People say give him a chance....why? What are you basing this on? You have a proven goalscorer playing upfront but you want to sub him for an unknown player because he might be better....we don't know, Moyes does, but we don't
Also, who set up Osman's goal?
There isn't resistence, he obviously isn't as good as people who have seem him miss one shot in 5 minutes think he is.
People say give him a chance....why? What are you basing this on? You have a proven goalscorer playing upfront but you want to sub him for an unknown player because he might be better....we don't know, Moyes does, but we don't
Tony Williams. I get you wanting to play it safe, but what I am getting at here is that we need to strt thinking of the new first eleven going forward. Is that so hard for you to understand? Cahill will not give us goals in the way you hope. He has been a midfielder all his life. If you are against change or taking a chance on blooding youth to tthe team than this club can only go backwards. The big picture is what I am getting at. Are we best served to try and give some young top players a chance. I would say yes. Look at Rooney or Francis Jeffers, they both had something we needed. They delivered while at this club. You dont have to make things more diificult than it is. Without Beckford and Yakubu we clearly have no other choice than to go for one of our young strikers and at the moment the most promising is Vellios. All change isnt bad you know!!!
Lets face it, we spent most of last season struggling to score. If we put Vellios on from the start and he doesn't score, what's changed?
No one has really seen enough of him to state whether he 's good enough for the prem or not. Only one way to find out though isn't there?
Frankly i'd like to see him start, if only to see some new faces on the pitch and give the opposition something new to deal with.
No one has really seen enough of him to state whether he 's good enough for the prem or not. Only one way to find out though isn't there?
Frankly i'd like to see him start, if only to see some new faces on the pitch and give the opposition something new to deal with.
Seamus@63 Its Karl by the way Mick, the rationale is i prefer to see a proven Premier League player Cahill who just happens to be one of the best Everton players in the last 20 years rather than a kid who i have seen for 10 mins oh 15 mins he got 5 minutes last year.
Claiming players are great when you have not even seen them play is the kind of nonesense i have been hearing from red twats for years. If Moyes give the lad a run and he didn't score goals the same people here would crucify him plus his confidence would be shot and any chance he does have of making a go of things would be over.
Jimmy@66 Rooney and Jeffers were brought up in English football and knew what to expect, they also stuck out at every level they played and were not expected to do the work that a player like Cahill does as well as get goals.
One last thing Vellios is not a prolific goalscorer at reserve level so what makes anyone here think he is going to bang them in and cause all kind of problems for the opponents?
Claiming players are great when you have not even seen them play is the kind of nonesense i have been hearing from red twats for years. If Moyes give the lad a run and he didn't score goals the same people here would crucify him plus his confidence would be shot and any chance he does have of making a go of things would be over.
Jimmy@66 Rooney and Jeffers were brought up in English football and knew what to expect, they also stuck out at every level they played and were not expected to do the work that a player like Cahill does as well as get goals.
One last thing Vellios is not a prolific goalscorer at reserve level so what makes anyone here think he is going to bang them in and cause all kind of problems for the opponents?
Cahill.
One of the best Everton players in the last 20 yrs ?
What are you smoking
One of the best Everton players in the last 20 yrs ?
What are you smoking
The headline Going Forward is inappropriated where Everton FC is concerned Since 2003 and the signing of Yobo we have needed to sell our best players to get money to buy replacements. Under this chairman we have stagnated and being the only club not to spend a penny of the £380mill transfer total we are the laughing stock of football. This will never change until the chairman does the honourable thing and removes himself form his chair Heres hoping thats sooner than later.
Ye Dave easily in the top ten, try naming ten better? Football is about opinions but anyone thinking Cahill is a poor player is talking shite.
He is up there with Lampard but eh i suppose 20 goals a season since the year 1 makes him shite as well. Maybe it should be young defenders most of you want to see as 2 goals like last week should be enough to win any game and it was poor defending that cost us not the lack of goals.
He is up there with Lampard but eh i suppose 20 goals a season since the year 1 makes him shite as well. Maybe it should be young defenders most of you want to see as 2 goals like last week should be enough to win any game and it was poor defending that cost us not the lack of goals.
l
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1 Posted 14/09/2011 at 14:20:39
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