Season 2011-12
The Mail Bag
Love or money?
40 Comments: The most important man at the club is David Moyes. That's the view of Bill Kenwright.
Also, the superb Swiss Ramble blog defines Kenwright's strategy as... well, expecting Moyes to work wonders on a shoestring. So, while I have many reservations about Moyes, he is undoubtedly respected and admired by his chairman, his peers, the media, the players and many, many Evertonians.
So what is he doing here?
I would genuinely love to believe that he has the club at heart, that he has a bond with the supporters, that he has started a job that he must finish, that he realises that he has peaked and that managing Everton is as good as it will ever be.
On the positive side: he has a loyal chairman, a mostly loyal fan base, he is under no pressure to win a trophy, he is loved by the media and he is touted as a manager with a big job around the corner. Finally, he is paid a huge salary.
On the negative side: he is manager of a skint, selling club with no long-term strategy. His best players may be sold from under him, he has no money to spend and it is unlikely that he can win a trophy here.
Why is he here? Love or money?
Andy Crooks, Posted 15/09/2011 at 22:08:22
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"he is touted as a manager with a big job around the corner. "
So they say. Personally I doubt it.
So they say. Personally I doubt it.
"that he has a bond with the supporters"
If that be the case, why make statements like this?:
?Supporters want to see signings in the summer but either we are talking Swahili and people can?t understand us..."
If that be the case, why make statements like this?:
?Supporters want to see signings in the summer but either we are talking Swahili and people can?t understand us..."
Best job in english football.
Massive wages, rock solid security in the most fragile profession in the world.
"old rope" comes to mind.
Massive wages, rock solid security in the most fragile profession in the world.
"old rope" comes to mind.
"managing Everton is as good as it will ever be"
That's probably right. The top four plus the RS wouldn't want him so where else could he go that's bigger,better and pays more than £65k a week?
That's probably right. The top four plus the RS wouldn't want him so where else could he go that's bigger,better and pays more than £65k a week?
Moyes has said himself that "loyalty" is a trait he values highly; so he walks it likes he talks it...where's the issue?
"managing Everton is as good as it will ever be"
That's probably right. The top four plus the RS wouldn't want him so where else could he go that's bigger,better and pays more than £65k a week?
That's probably right. The top four plus the RS wouldn't want him so where else could he go that's bigger,better and pays more than £65k a week?
Will be interesting to see how well he copes at Spurs 4-5-1 all the way!
Maybe he is still here because he is one of the highest paid managers in the prem, without the pressure that comes with being one of the top earners.
What's your point and why does it matter?
I'd hope he's still here because he still thinks there could be some hope of future advancement. Looks unlikely with his best mate still in charge though.
In reality, has he really had any great opportunity to move on yet? Linked with the Newcastle and Villa jobs but neither of those situations are much better than ours.
The big test will come when a team like Spurs make a play for him. I hate to think they're a better option than us, but you'd have to say they are under the current cirumstances.
If Redknapp moves on to England in the summer then I think Moyes's loyalty will be tested to the limit. I'd like to think he'd stay, but then again, I hoped Rooney, Lescott and Arteta were going to stay as well!
In reality, has he really had any great opportunity to move on yet? Linked with the Newcastle and Villa jobs but neither of those situations are much better than ours.
The big test will come when a team like Spurs make a play for him. I hate to think they're a better option than us, but you'd have to say they are under the current cirumstances.
If Redknapp moves on to England in the summer then I think Moyes's loyalty will be tested to the limit. I'd like to think he'd stay, but then again, I hoped Rooney, Lescott and Arteta were going to stay as well!
He likes total control over team affairs. He wouldn't get that at other clubs like Spurs.
If and when Kenright sells, he can';t be here forever then we'll discover if it's for the "love of money".
"Kenwright's strategy as... well, expecting Moyes to work wonders on a shoestring"
"Maybe he is still here because he is one of the highest paid managers in the prem, without the pressure that comes with being one of the top earners"
These two statements don't really match up, do they?
Just because there might not be pressure on him to win trophies, doesn't mean there isn't pressure. Your expectations are just different from the board.
You are living in cloud cuckoo land they are not.
Staying in the premier league is probably are more difficult task for a club on Evertons budget, than winning a trophy/qualifying for the champions league for a club on Man City's budget.
T.A.P.S
"Maybe he is still here because he is one of the highest paid managers in the prem, without the pressure that comes with being one of the top earners"
These two statements don't really match up, do they?
Just because there might not be pressure on him to win trophies, doesn't mean there isn't pressure. Your expectations are just different from the board.
You are living in cloud cuckoo land they are not.
Staying in the premier league is probably are more difficult task for a club on Evertons budget, than winning a trophy/qualifying for the champions league for a club on Man City's budget.
T.A.P.S
Interesting article on a speech by Peter Ridsdale especially his comments on EFC
http://www.thebusinessdesk.com/northwest/news/220778-ridsdale-warns-of-football-implosion.html
Pretty obvious though that EFC business model would not survive relegation
http://www.thebusinessdesk.com/northwest/news/220778-ridsdale-warns-of-football-implosion.html
Pretty obvious though that EFC business model would not survive relegation
As per above
Interesting that whilst we obviously have issues with Kenwright and the board no-one has highlighted the impact the banks have had
Who was it that kept extending our overdraft? Our loans? Were the banks too friendly with Bill?
Interesting that whilst we obviously have issues with Kenwright and the board no-one has highlighted the impact the banks have had
Who was it that kept extending our overdraft? Our loans? Were the banks too friendly with Bill?
Mark, Moyes is probalby in the top 5/6 highest paid managers in the prem, are you saying all he has to do for that huge wad of money is keep us in the prem?
'ALL he has to do for that huge wad of money is keep us in the prem?"
Brilliant
Brilliant
Pressure?? The money he earns and the fortune he's got sitting in the bank he could finish work today and never have to worry about anything financial ever again.
None of them have any concept of pressure.
None of them have any concept of pressure.
Moyes is here because he hasn't had any better offers.
Villa is a step down and thats why he rejected any approach. Spurs on the other hand I think would test him!
Villa is a step down and thats why he rejected any approach. Spurs on the other hand I think would test him!
Helikaon Bow #17
Brilliant Comment
Brilliant Comment
Fran
I agree Helikaon captures the very essence of our predicament.
nail.....head, I think is the vernacular .
I agree Helikaon captures the very essence of our predicament.
nail.....head, I think is the vernacular .
Moyes (and Kenwright) are here because the ticket purchasing fans want them both to be here. As soon as that changes, they will be both be off.
I'm not arsed as to why Moyes is here. He'll do for now, despite his flaws, however, I suspect that IF we ever get the issues at Board level resolved Moyes may suddenly become the most expendable person at the club. Although, I can think of a couple of our senior management figures who should be out of the door ahead of him!
Ray, (7)
You said: "managing Everton is as good as it will ever be"
That's probably right. The top four plus the RS wouldn't want him so where else could he go that's bigger,better and pays more than £65k a week?
I say: Sunderland. Its not a case of bigger (although they get bigger crowds) or better, but them being able to pay him, and give him transfer money. The amount Sunderland have spent to still be where they are is little short of hilarious. If they'd had Moyes they'd have spent half the money and gained far more points and be playing regular European football. One day they might realise that.
Moyes also may get to a point where he knows he can only take Everton backwards from where he's been, and want the fresh challenge and better long term prospects of a club with a rich backer. We're lucky to have him, despite all the negative formations, players out of position and pointless substitutions that come too late.
You said: "managing Everton is as good as it will ever be"
That's probably right. The top four plus the RS wouldn't want him so where else could he go that's bigger,better and pays more than £65k a week?
I say: Sunderland. Its not a case of bigger (although they get bigger crowds) or better, but them being able to pay him, and give him transfer money. The amount Sunderland have spent to still be where they are is little short of hilarious. If they'd had Moyes they'd have spent half the money and gained far more points and be playing regular European football. One day they might realise that.
Moyes also may get to a point where he knows he can only take Everton backwards from where he's been, and want the fresh challenge and better long term prospects of a club with a rich backer. We're lucky to have him, despite all the negative formations, players out of position and pointless substitutions that come too late.
Mike, just a point. You say we are lucky to have him and then add that superb"despite".
Mark Stone, in your honest opinion is David Moyes the best coach that £3.5 million a year can buy? Do you honestly believe that?
Mark Stone, in your honest opinion is David Moyes the best coach that £3.5 million a year can buy? Do you honestly believe that?
Mike.
I don't regard Sunderland as bigger OR better. I agree that they've had, and wasted, more money than Everton but I would be surprised if Moyes thought it worth moving his family etc. for the chance to manage them. That, for me, is a retrograde step.
I don't regard Sunderland as bigger OR better. I agree that they've had, and wasted, more money than Everton but I would be surprised if Moyes thought it worth moving his family etc. for the chance to manage them. That, for me, is a retrograde step.
Best manager Andy, yes. I truly believe that without him we'd be in the championship. My reasoning? Other teams with a similar budget have been relegated. Name me a manager with a similar budget to Moyes who has not consistently finished below him. Go:
Mark
I never get this defence of Moyes, it completely ignores the one commodity Moyes has had in abundance that others would give their right arm for - time.
Should we ignore the financial strength of Manu and Arsenal and compare the 10 year Moyes record to Wenger and Ferguson?
Nonsense question.
I never get this defence of Moyes, it completely ignores the one commodity Moyes has had in abundance that others would give their right arm for - time.
Should we ignore the financial strength of Manu and Arsenal and compare the 10 year Moyes record to Wenger and Ferguson?
Nonsense question.
So Mark, are you saying its a huge achievement Moyes keeping us in the prem, so therefore he merits the huge wages?
Instead of just brushing it off, tell me why he deserves to be one of the highest paid managers in the prem, and what level of achievement should we be happy with?
Instead of just brushing it off, tell me why he deserves to be one of the highest paid managers in the prem, and what level of achievement should we be happy with?
Also Mark, under the financial restraints Moyes has to work under, he has done a great job, also picking up some gems along the way.
Are you taking the piss, or have you just answered your own question?
Andy, all I was doing was showing that I am aware of his faults lest I be accused of being part of the (fictional) group that think Moyes can do no wrong. I say we are lucky to have him even though he has these faults. All of us who defend Moyes against the criticism he receives on here regularly are aware of these faults, yet defend him anyway, because when we weigh up the positives and negatives, we fell it comes down in his favour. This is something his critics rarely if ever seem to recognise, instead accusing us of being 'blind', 'sheep' and many other patronising insults. My wife's got faults and sometimes she drives me mad, but when I weigh it up I know I'm still lucky to have her, so there's no contradiction in what I said.
Ray, I'd hoped it was clear that I was saying Sunderland aren't necessarily bigger or better than us. But they do have 'bigger' crowds and a 'bigger' budget, which could easily tempt a manager who was only here for the money, rather than love (the issue at stake in the OP), and a manager who backs his own ability (as I'm sure Moyes does) would fancy his chances of making them 'better' on the field than us if given the money that Sunderland have spent in the last five (approx.) years.
My point was that we shouldn't be doubting Moyes' integrity, or insinuating that he's only here because he's on a massive salary and sees his job as a cushy number with no pressure. I don't believe this is the case at all because at the very least it seems that he could have been at Sunderland spending shed-loads, earning the same and finishing lower, and he'd still be in a job.
Just to butt in to Trevor's point, Moyes earned his time, and plenty of other managers have failed to earn that time, or do anything with it when given it. Any argument against this will sound dangerously like giving Bill Kenwright credit for being a good chairman, so feel free, but be careful!
Ray, I'd hoped it was clear that I was saying Sunderland aren't necessarily bigger or better than us. But they do have 'bigger' crowds and a 'bigger' budget, which could easily tempt a manager who was only here for the money, rather than love (the issue at stake in the OP), and a manager who backs his own ability (as I'm sure Moyes does) would fancy his chances of making them 'better' on the field than us if given the money that Sunderland have spent in the last five (approx.) years.
My point was that we shouldn't be doubting Moyes' integrity, or insinuating that he's only here because he's on a massive salary and sees his job as a cushy number with no pressure. I don't believe this is the case at all because at the very least it seems that he could have been at Sunderland spending shed-loads, earning the same and finishing lower, and he'd still be in a job.
Just to butt in to Trevor's point, Moyes earned his time, and plenty of other managers have failed to earn that time, or do anything with it when given it. Any argument against this will sound dangerously like giving Bill Kenwright credit for being a good chairman, so feel free, but be careful!
How about my last paragraph Trevor? Relevant?
Mike
In all honesty I couldn't understand your kenwright attachment and just plain disagree about moyes earning his time.
After his limitations were brutally shown in Europe the writing was on the wall - he's ok at the defensive hard working survival stuff but the next step is beyond him.
The chickens are coming home to roost as a result.
He's as culpable as Kenwright.
In all honesty I couldn't understand your kenwright attachment and just plain disagree about moyes earning his time.
After his limitations were brutally shown in Europe the writing was on the wall - he's ok at the defensive hard working survival stuff but the next step is beyond him.
The chickens are coming home to roost as a result.
He's as culpable as Kenwright.
I don't think he is the most brilliant tactician to say the least but if you look at where we finish and his ability in the transfer Market then he is probably the single reason we are in the Prem .
Brian #31
I'll accept your point that Moyes is one of the top 5/6 highest paid managers in the Premiership. Lets also accept the Swiss Ramble conclusion that in terms of wage bill Everton are at best mid-table. Add to that in terms of transfer funds we are...I don't have a description that adequately sums up how bad we are on that front...so for me Moyes getting us into the top 8 is no mean achievement. Seriously with those limitations what level of achievement do you expect?
I'll accept your point that Moyes is one of the top 5/6 highest paid managers in the Premiership. Lets also accept the Swiss Ramble conclusion that in terms of wage bill Everton are at best mid-table. Add to that in terms of transfer funds we are...I don't have a description that adequately sums up how bad we are on that front...so for me Moyes getting us into the top 8 is no mean achievement. Seriously with those limitations what level of achievement do you expect?
Actually Brendan, what Brian #31 says is that Moyes is PROBABLY in the top 5/6 managers in the league. So he doesn't know. So his issue is based on a presumption (like most gripes that people on here have). I would argue that, although when he signed his contract, he was one of the highest paid, several others have since caught him up. I will also point out that for several years he was the lowest paid manager in the Premier League.
A quick google search reveals that he is certainly on less money than Wenger, Ferguson, Mancini, Villas Boas, Redknapp, Dogleash. Also, Houllier was and Bruce is on the same (and with more disposable funds = easier job). Given that we finished 7th last year I would say that his salary is proportionate. Furthermore, given that he consistently outperforms people on similar salaries and with bigger budgets, he actually gives us value for money.
I was going to reply to Trevor Mackie's unbelievable short sightedness, but really what is the point? Got to be trolling ... not just talking about these comments but those on other threads. Surely no real people are so dumb?
Trevor, the 'Kenwright attachment' was that EITHER Moyes earned the time he was given, so doesn't deserve to have his praise mitigated by the point you originally made that he was given time where other managers weren't, OR Kenwright showed himself an excellent chairman (in at least that sense) by allowing Moyes the time he needed. I was saying that you can't criticise both of them at the same time in this instance, on that particular point.
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1 Posted 15/09/2011 at 22:59:27
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