Season 2011-12
The Mail Bag
Does 'life' mean 14 years?
77 Comments: So rumour has it that Davey Moyes is to be offered a new contract in the New Year. Not surprising when you look back to all those "job's for life" utterances of Chairman Bill... but new contract always seem to be on the table when change of ownership talk is rife! So, if an offer is made and the manager puts pen to paper, it is likely to take him past the 14 years handed out as a life sentence!
But is 14 years too long as manager of one football club? Fans of Manchester United will certainly say "No way" ? but at a club with so few resources as Everton is it likely that the train will hit the buffers long before his time is served?
Don`t get me wrong: I believe that Moyes has done ?and is doing ? a splendid job... but can one man continue to weave silk purses from sows' ears indefinitely? I somehow think not.
Much as I support Bill Kenwright as Chairman, I do suspect that he would be lost without Moyes and would wish to put a ball and chain on him as soon as possible. Probably only the banks are preventing a multi-million pound deal being done right now but, with so much uncertainty around, is the manager's security of the highest importance?
Not really.
Richard Dodd, Posted 21/09/2011 at 15:36:04
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Unfortunately Moyes has been with Everton for 10 years during which time he has been very limited in getting the palyers he would like because of restricted finances and it looks like that will be the way for quite some time.
We may never know if Everton would have won anything during his tenure if the right money was available He has made some astute signings and also some poor ones.
I suppose Kenright must offer him a new contract for now otherwise I am sure one of the other clubs with big financial backing may lure him away. Personally I think he has done well but Everton are in need of a change.
As much as I get frustrated with Moyes' persistence of 4-5-1 in every game and failure to take the initiative, the results speak for themselves.
Numerous top 7 finishes and a 4th placed finish during his reign on a very limited budget has to be applauded. Stability is important and having someone who knows the Premier League inside out has to be a good thing. Sure, we would all love to see Pep Guardiola at Everton but let's be realistic.
Tying Moyes down and seeing what he can do with big money when our elusive billionaire comes along has to be a good thing.
Numerous top 7 finishes and a 4th placed finish during his reign on a very limited budget has to be applauded. Stability is important and having someone who knows the Premier League inside out has to be a good thing. Sure, we would all love to see Pep Guardiola at Everton but let's be realistic.
Tying Moyes down and seeing what he can do with big money when our elusive billionaire comes along has to be a good thing.
It is the most important signing we could make - perish the thought of this club in these circumstances without a manager able to get everything out of the players like David Moyes can get.
The one thing off the pitch that does not need to change is the manager.
The one thing off the pitch that does not need to change is the manager.
If Moyes gets an extended contract at Everton then we are doomed to negative football with the odd exciting game. When a manager plays no recognised striker against WIGAN, then God help us. 10 years without any trophey says it all. I think people forget that its not long ago Moyes had money for Bily and Fellini. If we went out to win every game with fast attacking players then we would soon become a team to fear. We now have a squad of players that could excite the crowd and money would not be an issue.
Just my opinion but I wish he woudl just give it a go against the so called lesser teams at Goodison.
Just my opinion but I wish he woudl just give it a go against the so called lesser teams at Goodison.
Frank,
Perhaps it's you who has forgotten that the only reason he had money for Bily and Fellaini is because he was forced to sell top players. Conveniently forgetting about being forced to sell Lescott and mysteriously having Andy Johnson sold, with AJ telling Martin Tyler that he was sold to pay debts. Besides, what exactly is wrong with his purchase of Fellaini? He's been a top player for us. If your only gripe is the signing of Bily and that somehow proves he's inept please show me a single manager who has never made a signing that didn't turn out well.
Perhaps it's you who has forgotten that the only reason he had money for Bily and Fellaini is because he was forced to sell top players. Conveniently forgetting about being forced to sell Lescott and mysteriously having Andy Johnson sold, with AJ telling Martin Tyler that he was sold to pay debts. Besides, what exactly is wrong with his purchase of Fellaini? He's been a top player for us. If your only gripe is the signing of Bily and that somehow proves he's inept please show me a single manager who has never made a signing that didn't turn out well.
David I didn't say they were bad buys. I said we once had money but all the money comning in now goes to the bank. But we still have a squad of players, who are allowed / able to express themselves, could still live with the best.
David Barks, selling Lescott was good business. Fellaini has not been a top player for us. Yes, apparently he will be but when? What "top player" glimpses has he shown you?
Bily, if he gets a run in the side in forward central midfield, might just be a top player. I find it beyond belief that anyone can defend the starting line-up against Wigan. It wasn't dictated by circumstances but by an in-built negative, defensive mindset that has stifled this club.
A new contract? Please, No! I heard the praises of Moyes being sung on 5live the other night. I just cannot see it, I really can't.
Hope Moyes gets a ten-year deal. Stability is required until FIFA sort this one-sided cash-cow system of the Premier League.
Billy's shite.
Gareth,you hit the nail on the head mate
Just finished tying the noose, now, where did I put that chair?
Well deserved Moyes! Change manager and we're doomed in my opinion.
Moyes is brilliant. It's not a direct comparison but as soon as Bolton lost Allardyce they dropped from being a Top 8 side to being relegation candidates. Charlton after Curbishley went down straight away.
If we lost Moyes, our best players would probably start going because they have a strong relationship. Cahill equates Everton with Moyes as does Jagielka and Baines.
He is a brilliant manager. Yes, he still has a few things to learn but keeping him will keep us out of the Championship however nasty things become on the money front.
IMWT
If we lost Moyes, our best players would probably start going because they have a strong relationship. Cahill equates Everton with Moyes as does Jagielka and Baines.
He is a brilliant manager. Yes, he still has a few things to learn but keeping him will keep us out of the Championship however nasty things become on the money front.
IMWT
Moyes is so negative, he really does my head in sometimes, and apart from wanting him sacked straight after the QPR game, I think he's probably still the best man for the job.
Danny#10 you`ll never get your job at the times with posts like that! Billy is a wizard, Moyes`s negativity has destroyed the lad, Messi would sruggle under defensive Dave!!
Just when I thought things couldn't possibly get any worse, someone kill me now. So that means I'll be watching shit football in the Championship as well, bugger.
In Moyes We're Toss
In Moyes We're Toss
Gareth Humphreys , spot on.
As much as I may sound negative on this site, and also appeasing the mass here, there are other changes which nee to be made. Yes Moyes has his frustrating faults, but without him we would likely be in a whole-heartedly worse pile of shit.
With regards to individual players Moyes' has purchased, he'd done better than many others... and Fellaini is a young player who, when he plays properly, changes games. Bily may turn out to be a flop, but was worth a punt (even if it was a hefty one).
As much as I may sound negative on this site, and also appeasing the mass here, there are other changes which nee to be made. Yes Moyes has his frustrating faults, but without him we would likely be in a whole-heartedly worse pile of shit.
With regards to individual players Moyes' has purchased, he'd done better than many others... and Fellaini is a young player who, when he plays properly, changes games. Bily may turn out to be a flop, but was worth a punt (even if it was a hefty one).
Robbie - 17 why will you be watching "shit football in the Championship"? Are you supporting someone else now?
Fact is when Moyes took over we were perennial strugglers hovering on the brink of relegation, now we are consistent top 6/7.
Given this, how does Moyes potentially staying longer mean we will be relegated?
This is worse than 'life' it's a death sentence. Here lies the remains of the 'School of Science', died 2012 aged 134. Will be sorely missed by his 40,000, er 30,000, er 20,000 very close friends who were with him right until the bitter end, and without whose continued trust and unwavering support through his terminal decline this lasting monument would not have been possible.
God, have the Mersey on them, for they know not what they do.
God, have the Mersey on them, for they know not what they do.
Egg on toast.
Brian (12) ? let us know when you find that chair so we can queue up to kick it from under you.
Chris #19, because that is where shite football and negative tactics belong, and where we'll inevitably end up with another 4 years of Mr Moyes and Mr Kenwright.
Robbie - why after 10 years of Moyes "shite football and negative tactics" are we not already relegated but instead a top 7 side? Why will his next 4 years lead to this relegation?
Sorry don't see it being "inevitable" at all but rather pie-in-the-sky bollocks.
Sorry don't see it being "inevitable" at all but rather pie-in-the-sky bollocks.
When I got to "Much as I support Bill Kenwright as Chairman" I knew the author must be Doddy!
You're right Richard, it's because of Moyes continued 'success' (rather lack of failure) in getting us to around 7th consistently that Billy Liar is able to continue to pull the wool over some supporters eyes.
If we'd have continued to be relegation fodder then Bill would have been well gone by now, hounded out by the supporters in the same way Johnson was.
Kenwright can't afford to get rid of Moyes or for Moyes to leave because he'd have to find money for a new manager to spend on his own players.
That's if he could find anyone daft enough to take the job with the financial situation we're in.
That's if he could find anyone daft enough to take the job with the financial situation we're in.
I saw on the news today that Wenger would like another 14 years as Arsenal manager, not really sure some (of their) supporters would be in a unanimous decision of agreement though..
Ok, so Moyes has been manager for what, nine years now, no trophies sorry to say, a couple of near misses and what might have beens, but on the Cups front it's been rather a letdown, embarrassments with lower league opposition have been all to familiar, and apart from the 2009 run, could you really say the club has done itself proud in either domestic competition?
The League on the other hand is something else, it sure was a nice change to be actually challenging for European honors once Smith departed, there were some major league disappointments since 2002/03, but you can't ignore what Moyes has done such as taking the club to a surprise Champions League place six years ago and other final standings of recognition.
I'm in two minds about about what to do here, on the one hand I have no issues with Moyes as an individual, he has done well at certain stages since his arrival from Deepdale, put EFC back on the map again since he came, seems a decent chap, but on the other hand it's coming up to ten years now without any silver, I have been frustrated with some of his tactics and decisions in recent years, and I think every now and again that could someone else come in and do an improvement?, who will be the next Everton manager to orchestrate a Cup winning side even? I just somehow don't see Moyes as the man to do this, Ok, we got through in the League Cup tonight, but there's still a long way to go, and then there's the FA. Cup in January, past frustrations such as Oldham and Shrewsbury will loom large but I think we'll cross that bridge when we find it.
Bottom line is, Moyes has done a fine job in getting this club recognized again since he arrived in 2002, but it hasn't always been such a grand job of things, as with Wenger, after some happy memories and fine achievements, I do think his time has arrived or is coming near and the club should let someone else have a go.
It's nothing personal, but soccer is, after all, a results business.
Ok, so Moyes has been manager for what, nine years now, no trophies sorry to say, a couple of near misses and what might have beens, but on the Cups front it's been rather a letdown, embarrassments with lower league opposition have been all to familiar, and apart from the 2009 run, could you really say the club has done itself proud in either domestic competition?
The League on the other hand is something else, it sure was a nice change to be actually challenging for European honors once Smith departed, there were some major league disappointments since 2002/03, but you can't ignore what Moyes has done such as taking the club to a surprise Champions League place six years ago and other final standings of recognition.
I'm in two minds about about what to do here, on the one hand I have no issues with Moyes as an individual, he has done well at certain stages since his arrival from Deepdale, put EFC back on the map again since he came, seems a decent chap, but on the other hand it's coming up to ten years now without any silver, I have been frustrated with some of his tactics and decisions in recent years, and I think every now and again that could someone else come in and do an improvement?, who will be the next Everton manager to orchestrate a Cup winning side even? I just somehow don't see Moyes as the man to do this, Ok, we got through in the League Cup tonight, but there's still a long way to go, and then there's the FA. Cup in January, past frustrations such as Oldham and Shrewsbury will loom large but I think we'll cross that bridge when we find it.
Bottom line is, Moyes has done a fine job in getting this club recognized again since he arrived in 2002, but it hasn't always been such a grand job of things, as with Wenger, after some happy memories and fine achievements, I do think his time has arrived or is coming near and the club should let someone else have a go.
It's nothing personal, but soccer is, after all, a results business.
Chris, I didn't think I had to spell it out, but it looks like I'm going to have to.
1) We've sold all our assets, therefore no more money for transfers
1) We've sold all our assets, therefore no more money for transfers
2) We've sold our season ticket sales for the next god knows how many years, therefore no money for transfers
3) We've sold our TV income for the next 2 seasons, therefore no money for transfers
4) The banks have stopped loaning us money, therefore no money for transfers
5) The banks want their money back, therefore no money for transfers
6) Our attendances are going down massively, therefore no money for transfers
Whilst the above has been happening, the teams around us have been getting stronger and the one thing that Moyes was actually good at, ie, bringing in half decent lower-division players relatively cheaply, can't be done when we have........ no money for transfers.
Despite previously having a decent-sized squad and money for transfers, Moyes has managed to win fuck all in 10 years, this despite playing ? and let's be fair here ? shite football with some very good players.
Now, let us see how this genius copes with no money at all, aging players and the smallest squad in the Premier League.
If the only way out is to sell our future, AGAIN, and we lose Fellaini, Baines and/or Barkley to START paying off our debts, then even Moyes will have no option but to play shite football, but this time with the shite footballers he deserves.
Comprende???????
Rant over, now where is my Vallium!!!
Robbie Shields, agree with every word.
Dalziel # 28 The reason we've been crap in cup competitions is because Moyes's team's first priority is to try to avoid defeat. This approach may enable gathering enough league points to get to 6th or 7th but will never get us any higher. You have to win cup ties to get into the next round, or win the trophy.
Perhaps if he sent teams out to win matches early, set about the opposition from the off instead of the usual caution he may be pleasantly surprised.
"Despite previously having a decent-sized squad and money for transfers, Moyes has managed to win fuck all in 10 years, this despite playing ? and let's be fair here ? shite football with some very good players."
Bullshit. He has never had either. The only time he had money from players is when he has sold players. The top teams keep their best players and add to their squad. Moyes has always had to 'sell to buy'.
"Now, let us see how this genius copes with no money at all, aging players and the smallest squad in the Premier League."
Probably just as well he has managed over the last few seasons, when the circumstances were the same; ie 'best of the rest'.
Bullshit. He has never had either. The only time he had money from players is when he has sold players. The top teams keep their best players and add to their squad. Moyes has always had to 'sell to buy'.
"Now, let us see how this genius copes with no money at all, aging players and the smallest squad in the Premier League."
Probably just as well he has managed over the last few seasons, when the circumstances were the same; ie 'best of the rest'.
Eric Myles, spot on. The whole Moyes legend is built on the fact that we are not as bad as when he took over. Yes, there have been some bright moments, but there is no way any other club the size of this one would allow a 10-year tenure with only one cup final and a one fourth place finish to show for it.
"...........but, with so much uncertainty around, is the manager's security of the highest importance?"
ANSWER:? Yes! (End of.)
Not all this "We are doomed" shite again.
We have so many people coming on telling us this each season and it never happens.
Robbie, care to put your money were your mouth is?
We have so many people coming on telling us this each season and it never happens.
Robbie, care to put your money were your mouth is?
David, I am still waiting for the flavour of the month manager to be named as a possible successor because they play "nice footy".... only to be relegated/finish below us again and never to be mentioned again.
it was Holloway last year... also Martinez, who survived relgation on the last day.
it was Holloway last year... also Martinez, who survived relgation on the last day.
Sorry Dave, I am never going to put a bet on anything negative happening to the mighty blues, why would I do that? That would be sick!
Put it this way, I genuinely fear relegation in the next 4 years with Moyes is a damn sight more likely than us winning anything or even getting into Europe given our continued business and footballing strategies over the last 10 years.
IF Moyes and BK do win something in the next 4 years, I will happily donate £100 to a charity of your choice, and eat a huge slice of humble pie.
Put it this way, I genuinely fear relegation in the next 4 years with Moyes is a damn sight more likely than us winning anything or even getting into Europe given our continued business and footballing strategies over the last 10 years.
IF Moyes and BK do win something in the next 4 years, I will happily donate £100 to a charity of your choice, and eat a huge slice of humble pie.
I hope he signs. We would be insane to lose him. But I must be a crap fan to say this and disagree with a few hundred blind people.
Like it or not, Moyes is considered Everton's biggest asset from the outside looking in.
We are simply securing the asset, much like they have done with our best players, so that the club becomes more saleable.
Makes sense.
We are simply securing the asset, much like they have done with our best players, so that the club becomes more saleable.
Makes sense.
David Moyes may not be an exciting manager but he gets one job done and that is keep us far away from relegation. As long as we have financial difficulties I think Moyes is just as good a manager for everton as any other, to be honest. No point in getting a shiny new manager when he does not have the money to get new players in.
Having said that, I think it is a little bit early to renew DM's contract.
Having said that, I think it is a little bit early to renew DM's contract.
When does longevity equate to success?
So Tony (34) if I understand you correctly, you're saying there simply does not exist on this planet another manager who could 'achieve' what Moyes (your flavour of EVERY month forever and ever and ever) has?
Dave Thomas (33) re 'doom', you say "It never happens".
True.
But in football, as in life, everything is perfectly fine until the second it's...not.
For instance, the economy was absolutely fine until..it wasn't fine.
So saying 'we're doomed' doesn't make sense if you're NOT doomed, but it makes perfect sense if you are.
And those who tend to remain..er..'un-doomed' have, more often than not, recognised the possibility of doom and planned accordingly.
We haven't planned ahead (or planned anything else) because basically, we're run by inept amateurs.
Everton FC imo have behaved like Aesop's Crickets who merrily danced and played throughout the summer (or..um..whatever) without putting anything by for the winter (I can't remember exactly how the story finishes but the gist is they end up fucked).
Had we planned for the worst and hoped for the best, I would probably feel A LOT less doomed.
Just hoping for the best (which is now very much our policy) makes me believe doom is not very far away.
Dave Thomas (33) re 'doom', you say "It never happens".
True.
But in football, as in life, everything is perfectly fine until the second it's...not.
For instance, the economy was absolutely fine until..it wasn't fine.
So saying 'we're doomed' doesn't make sense if you're NOT doomed, but it makes perfect sense if you are.
And those who tend to remain..er..'un-doomed' have, more often than not, recognised the possibility of doom and planned accordingly.
We haven't planned ahead (or planned anything else) because basically, we're run by inept amateurs.
Everton FC imo have behaved like Aesop's Crickets who merrily danced and played throughout the summer (or..um..whatever) without putting anything by for the winter (I can't remember exactly how the story finishes but the gist is they end up fucked).
Had we planned for the worst and hoped for the best, I would probably feel A LOT less doomed.
Just hoping for the best (which is now very much our policy) makes me believe doom is not very far away.
I'd like to know which Premier League managers people think are more exciting than Moyes.
Sure he's not at the top but we're no Bolton or Stoke either.
It is said that one of the great tacticians of football was Graham Taylor with his long-ball pressing style, which is true considering where he got Watford, and how Wimbledon closely followed. At the same time, howeverm it was seen as too crude to succeed against the best teams and win titles.
The great players play for the best teams, who then play the best football. Are we just playing according to a team that finishes 6/7/8th?
Thinking about it, what team has hung round the lower reaches of Premier League football like Bolton or Wigan for some years and played good football, rather than effective football? None!
The worse the team, the more you play the percentages. Still, there is definite scope for David Moyes to make things fancy, to which he has stated in the past, but who can he afford to make that style work? He needs to play a style where he accrues the most points from the players he has and does that with the according style. But why the freaking hoofs out of defense???
Sure he's not at the top but we're no Bolton or Stoke either.
It is said that one of the great tacticians of football was Graham Taylor with his long-ball pressing style, which is true considering where he got Watford, and how Wimbledon closely followed. At the same time, howeverm it was seen as too crude to succeed against the best teams and win titles.
The great players play for the best teams, who then play the best football. Are we just playing according to a team that finishes 6/7/8th?
Thinking about it, what team has hung round the lower reaches of Premier League football like Bolton or Wigan for some years and played good football, rather than effective football? None!
The worse the team, the more you play the percentages. Still, there is definite scope for David Moyes to make things fancy, to which he has stated in the past, but who can he afford to make that style work? He needs to play a style where he accrues the most points from the players he has and does that with the according style. But why the freaking hoofs out of defense???
Eugene - Tony never said that. So no...........you didn't understand him correctly.
The point he made was that every seaon we have people on here who will rave about a certain manager and wonder what that manager could go on and achieve in the future. And then Moyes goes on to finish above him in the table. Usually more than once.
I personally do not think we are doomed. A lot of people on here, especially you Mr Ruane, should read a book called "Soccernomics: Why England Lose & Other Curious Football Phenomena Explained".
This book covers all things that happen in football. It is very heavy on statistical anlyasis. And I mention it because it explains, with more than one example, just how badly run football clubs are AND always have been. So it's not just us.
With all the debate on here about ownership and how we heading for disaster, I think reading this book will help. Even if it doesn't, it is still a very interesting read for any football fan. Well,at least one with half a brain 'cos, like I said, some of it is quite heavy on stats and is not like your usual fooballer's bio.
That's just my opinion anyway.... you might think it's shite. Like I do about a lot of the comments on here.
The point he made was that every seaon we have people on here who will rave about a certain manager and wonder what that manager could go on and achieve in the future. And then Moyes goes on to finish above him in the table. Usually more than once.
I personally do not think we are doomed. A lot of people on here, especially you Mr Ruane, should read a book called "Soccernomics: Why England Lose & Other Curious Football Phenomena Explained".
This book covers all things that happen in football. It is very heavy on statistical anlyasis. And I mention it because it explains, with more than one example, just how badly run football clubs are AND always have been. So it's not just us.
With all the debate on here about ownership and how we heading for disaster, I think reading this book will help. Even if it doesn't, it is still a very interesting read for any football fan. Well,at least one with half a brain 'cos, like I said, some of it is quite heavy on stats and is not like your usual fooballer's bio.
That's just my opinion anyway.... you might think it's shite. Like I do about a lot of the comments on here.
Hmmmm, Nick #42, I'm not entirely sure anyone ever espoused Graham Taylor as being a master tactician. He was THE ultimate percentage football coach. Having said that, I'm starting to think he might actually have been a genius after all.........
Firstly, he got his defenders to hoof from defense into the oppositions box, not into the corner flag. He also had the foresight to buy big strapping centre forwards and strikers who were suited to that role.
Firstly, he got his defenders to hoof from defense into the oppositions box, not into the corner flag. He also had the foresight to buy big strapping centre forwards and strikers who were suited to that role.
Now I come to think about it, he might even have used 2 upfront, home and away, even against inferior opposition, of which there weren't that many. And, he used to use things called wingers, who could run past defenders and cross the ball into the box for his big forwards to get on the end of........ I take it all back, that guy WAS a genius, he worked out how to play effective hoofball on a limited budget with lower league players.......
WTF....... Quick, someone let Moyes know, he's been getting them to hoof the bloody ball into the wrong chuffin areas for 10 years! and only had one upfront! and that one has always been a short arse!
IMWT my Arsenal.
Thanks Lee 43, saved me the bother.
Tony,
Have you not heard? It's Nigel Clough this season.
Derby have won a few games so on another thread we had someone talking about replacing Moyes with Nigel Clough. You know... the guy who led his team to 14th and 19th in the last couple of seasons in the Championship, but someone has taken a look at the table and seen Derby are 4th after 7 games. He didn't look at the Premier League table and see if we win our game in hand we would be 4th in the Premier League.
Have you not heard? It's Nigel Clough this season.
Derby have won a few games so on another thread we had someone talking about replacing Moyes with Nigel Clough. You know... the guy who led his team to 14th and 19th in the last couple of seasons in the Championship, but someone has taken a look at the table and seen Derby are 4th after 7 games. He didn't look at the Premier League table and see if we win our game in hand we would be 4th in the Premier League.
Tony @ 34 spot on mate!
First post here after years reading others. It seems to me that it was the decision of our much maligned (on here) manager to shuffle the pack again late on and put Fellaini up top with Velios that kept us in the cup.
Prior to then, all the other combinations hadn't worked. I just wonder how many internet Moyes bashers picked up on this from their live stream. Those people at the game would surely have picked up on it, I would have thought.
Prior to then, all the other combinations hadn't worked. I just wonder how many internet Moyes bashers picked up on this from their live stream. Those people at the game would surely have picked up on it, I would have thought.
Tony J 32#
?David, I am still waiting for the flavour of the month manager to be named as a possible successor because they play "nice footy".... only to be relegated/finish below us again and never to be mentioned again?
I believe this to be a redundant argument just because Moyes at Everton finishes above Martinez at Wigan does not mean Moyes has achieved more per se.
I believe this is why when Everton finished fourth all them long years ago, when Moyes peaked as manager, he was awarded the coveted LMA manager of the year award because his achievement relatively out stripped that of say, the manager of the League Champions that season, in the view of his peers.
I wonder if Moyes could keep a team like Wigan in the League who really have had ?no money? over the years. Achievement is relative: Everton finishing above Wigan... is that really a massive achievement compared to Wigan being in the top flight etc?
?David, I am still waiting for the flavour of the month manager to be named as a possible successor because they play "nice footy".... only to be relegated/finish below us again and never to be mentioned again?
I believe this to be a redundant argument just because Moyes at Everton finishes above Martinez at Wigan does not mean Moyes has achieved more per se.
I believe this is why when Everton finished fourth all them long years ago, when Moyes peaked as manager, he was awarded the coveted LMA manager of the year award because his achievement relatively out stripped that of say, the manager of the League Champions that season, in the view of his peers.
I wonder if Moyes could keep a team like Wigan in the League who really have had ?no money? over the years. Achievement is relative: Everton finishing above Wigan... is that really a massive achievement compared to Wigan being in the top flight etc?
Eugene, you are right. The club has spent money by getting their hands on every penny they can and pumping it into transfers and increased wages of our top performers. And at the peak of that expenditure, we enjoyed european football and moderate success via league placings. When we were riding this wave, fans were more than happy to go and watch the team. Now that wave has come to an end and there is no more money to spend, our fans decide they aren't supporters anymore and refuse to go to the match. Best fans in the country we are told. Right.
The talk about doom is very clear in my eyes. Had we not spent all our money on the squad, we would already have been doomed and relegated. I think anybody who looks at the squad from 99-04 and see that it was going nowhere but down. But have we merely delayed the inevitable, and relegation is around the corner? I don't think so, looking at the squad we have today. Does doom manifest itself through administration? Again, nothing to support this. Sure, we are not able to spend today, but this is being offset by having players like Barkley, Vellios, Coleman, Gueye coming through to keep us challenging on the pitch, while costs are cut getting rid of Yakubu, Arteta, Yobo, etc. These young lads that wouldn't get a chance if we had bought ready made superstars.
So my question is simple, for all those predicting the end of the club, what does it look like (administration? Relegation?) and when will it happen (tomorrow, 5 months, 5 years)? Some of us that are 'blinded by faith' are unable to see your crystal ball. So I'd appreciate if you can spell it out for us as we are not as intelligent as those who can see the demise of EFC. Cheers.
The talk about doom is very clear in my eyes. Had we not spent all our money on the squad, we would already have been doomed and relegated. I think anybody who looks at the squad from 99-04 and see that it was going nowhere but down. But have we merely delayed the inevitable, and relegation is around the corner? I don't think so, looking at the squad we have today. Does doom manifest itself through administration? Again, nothing to support this. Sure, we are not able to spend today, but this is being offset by having players like Barkley, Vellios, Coleman, Gueye coming through to keep us challenging on the pitch, while costs are cut getting rid of Yakubu, Arteta, Yobo, etc. These young lads that wouldn't get a chance if we had bought ready made superstars.
So my question is simple, for all those predicting the end of the club, what does it look like (administration? Relegation?) and when will it happen (tomorrow, 5 months, 5 years)? Some of us that are 'blinded by faith' are unable to see your crystal ball. So I'd appreciate if you can spell it out for us as we are not as intelligent as those who can see the demise of EFC. Cheers.
Lee Courtliff (43) - First of all I read the book a while back - as you suggest, a fantastic read and I thoroughly enjoyed it.
And yes it talks about badly run football clubs, supporter expectations, perceptions and how it has 'always been that way' etc.
However football now is NOT the way it has always been.
The model remained more or less the same for well over 100 years - you basically relied on your gates for revenue and the players for the most part earned the same ackers.
Oh sure your local meat pie-magnate chairman might occasionally throw in a few grand extra to get a decent centre forward but that's a BIG difference to what we have now.
Also, re your loose 'badly run', it is without doubt a matter of degrees and (imo) therefore disingenuous to point out other clubs are badly run too and it's 'not just us'.
Two things on this. 1) I don't give a shit about other clubs. 2) Which other club/s do you think are in the same or worse financial shite than us?
nb: A stomach-ache is bad, stomach cancer is also bad, but one is MUCH worse ? repeat, degrees.
Secondly, you say: "Eugene ? Tony never said that. So no...........you didn't understand him correctly". ?Wrong.
That is EXACTLY what his post is saying.
In fact it's always the same ? 'Those blokes you suggested didn't do as well as Moyes so you're wrong about them and those more successful blokes you suggested have more money so you're wrong about them'.
Think you'll find this leaves....nobody!
By the way, you started by calling me Eugene and then changed it to Mr Ruane.
I'm easy either way but... one or the other surely!
And yes it talks about badly run football clubs, supporter expectations, perceptions and how it has 'always been that way' etc.
However football now is NOT the way it has always been.
The model remained more or less the same for well over 100 years - you basically relied on your gates for revenue and the players for the most part earned the same ackers.
Oh sure your local meat pie-magnate chairman might occasionally throw in a few grand extra to get a decent centre forward but that's a BIG difference to what we have now.
Also, re your loose 'badly run', it is without doubt a matter of degrees and (imo) therefore disingenuous to point out other clubs are badly run too and it's 'not just us'.
Two things on this. 1) I don't give a shit about other clubs. 2) Which other club/s do you think are in the same or worse financial shite than us?
nb: A stomach-ache is bad, stomach cancer is also bad, but one is MUCH worse ? repeat, degrees.
Secondly, you say: "Eugene ? Tony never said that. So no...........you didn't understand him correctly". ?Wrong.
That is EXACTLY what his post is saying.
In fact it's always the same ? 'Those blokes you suggested didn't do as well as Moyes so you're wrong about them and those more successful blokes you suggested have more money so you're wrong about them'.
Think you'll find this leaves....nobody!
By the way, you started by calling me Eugene and then changed it to Mr Ruane.
I'm easy either way but... one or the other surely!
Dan (51) - The only way I could 'spell it out' more for you, would be by tattooing my post backwards on your forehead and getting you a job in the Hall of Mirrors.
Look, I'll keep it short, most af the salient facts are now 'out there', you can choose to acknowledge or ignore them as you choose.
Fair enough?
That said, there were two things you said I DID agree with.
Your first sentence: "Eugene you are right" and in your last sentence: "We are not as intelligent as those who can see the demise of EFC."
Like they say, even a clock...
Look, I'll keep it short, most af the salient facts are now 'out there', you can choose to acknowledge or ignore them as you choose.
Fair enough?
That said, there were two things you said I DID agree with.
Your first sentence: "Eugene you are right" and in your last sentence: "We are not as intelligent as those who can see the demise of EFC."
Like they say, even a clock...
Dan,
I would leave them to it.
We will finish in the top half this season and, come May, we will not be in administration yet, come the start of next season, we will have the same people telling us that we are going to be playing in the Championship very soon and administration is round the corner.
They have been saying it for years and we are still here.
I would leave them to it.
We will finish in the top half this season and, come May, we will not be in administration yet, come the start of next season, we will have the same people telling us that we are going to be playing in the Championship very soon and administration is round the corner.
They have been saying it for years and we are still here.
"They have been saying it for years and we are still here" ? The 2865th of the Mohicans (1713)
"They have been saying it for years and we are still here" ? The 146th of the Mohicans - (1794).
"They have been saying it for years and we are still here". ? The 37th of the Mohicans (1816).
"Erm.....fuck!" ? The last of the Mohicans - (1857)... [Probably.]
"They have been saying it for years and we are still here" ? The 146th of the Mohicans - (1794).
"They have been saying it for years and we are still here". ? The 37th of the Mohicans (1816).
"Erm.....fuck!" ? The last of the Mohicans - (1857)... [Probably.]
If we, as a business, are getting rid of the highest earners... Moyes should now be top of the list.
Well if we go down the root of the Mohicans (1713 - 1857), at least we are safe from oblivion for at least the next 144 years.
I'm getting very worried about season 2155 though.
If Bill would be lost without Moyes, why do you still support him?
Clearly you're admitting that, without Moyes, Bill would have been dead in the water a long time ago, taking our club with him?
Clearly you're admitting that, without Moyes, Bill would have been dead in the water a long time ago, taking our club with him?
- Dave (58) you seem happy with 144 years?
Well I invented the dates simply to aid me make a point about complacency (one you appear to be unwilling or unable to grasp).
But if I hadn't and the dates WERE real, why would you assume the 144 years start now?
We were founded in 1878, you do the sums.
Well I invented the dates simply to aid me make a point about complacency (one you appear to be unwilling or unable to grasp).
But if I hadn't and the dates WERE real, why would you assume the 144 years start now?
We were founded in 1878, you do the sums.
Chris (#22) would like to oblige mate, but the missus has already bagged kicking the chair away.
Tony J Williams - You have a go mate. I can't be arsed with him anymore.
We are doomed! DOOMED I tell you!!
We are doomed! DOOMED I tell you!!
Nice to see the flat earth society are out in force in this thread!!
Yes, thanks for that incoherent ramble Eugene. You honestly make 'rain man' seem like a well versed politician sometimes.
Nice stuff, Eugene; however, you are dealing with people who are angered by dissent.
Let's extend the contract of the coach and see if he can be the longest employed Premier League manager who has never won a trophy. I defy ANYONE to defend the team selection against Wigan and the shite that we have witnessed for most of this season.
Someone suggests Nigel Clough and it is used to attack anyone who thinks that Moyes isn't good enough. The constant bleat of the Moyes defenders is, "Who else?" So one cannot criticise the great man without having a replacement lined up? What utter nonsense.
The club is in dire straits off the field and we need something on matchday to give us a lift. We have decent players but everything on the pitch is stale, boring and dull. We have been lucky so far. Too many Evertonians are accepting the Moyes myth.
Walter Smith was lauded on Match of the Day and is slated now. Things could be different, things could be better. No new contract. Celtic are waiting.
Isn't Moyes already on £75k a week? I'm not against him getting a new contract, but if the recent stories that we need to keep significantly cutting costs are true then I hope we've not planning on giving him a pay rise too?
@ 32,
Utter shit. You seriously demand trophies on a Swansea/Norwich type transfer budget?
How can we expect anything much just above avoiding relegation when our net spend is at Championship level?
No club of our size would allow their board to run the club into the ground with minimal imnvestment and titanic business operations, I think that's what you meant?
Utter shit. You seriously demand trophies on a Swansea/Norwich type transfer budget?
How can we expect anything much just above avoiding relegation when our net spend is at Championship level?
No club of our size would allow their board to run the club into the ground with minimal imnvestment and titanic business operations, I think that's what you meant?
Phil, forget the transfer budget for a moment and look at our squad.We have plenty of international players and players who are coveted by other clubs. Compare our squad to that of Norwich or Swansea. There is no comparison. Moyes has been let down by Kenwright, no doubt, but the money factor has kept this vastly over rated coach in a job. We have a top ten squad so why is the coach lauded for producing top ten finishes?
Well lads,
We better all get down to Goodison as much as possible over the next few years because Robbie is predicting oblivion in 4 years and Eugenes a bit more optimistic with 11 years.
So better make the most of it while we still can.
We better all get down to Goodison as much as possible over the next few years because Robbie is predicting oblivion in 4 years and Eugenes a bit more optimistic with 11 years.
So better make the most of it while we still can.
Andy #67
He is lauded because 7th, 6th, 5th & 4th place ain't merely top ten finishes.
He is lauded because 7th, 6th, 5th & 4th place ain't merely top ten finishes.
Brendan
Only makes me think.....what if he attacked?
Only makes me think.....what if he attacked?
Trevor #70
Fair point but there is no guarantee that a more attacking approach would have produced better league finishes. You may believe that it would and thats fair enough but its equally plausible that it would simply have been a case of "swings & roundabouts" or we could have been worse off.
Fact is we'll never know but it doesn't alter the point I made that Andy is unfairly devaluing what Moyes has done for the club.
Fair point but there is no guarantee that a more attacking approach would have produced better league finishes. You may believe that it would and thats fair enough but its equally plausible that it would simply have been a case of "swings & roundabouts" or we could have been worse off.
Fact is we'll never know but it doesn't alter the point I made that Andy is unfairly devaluing what Moyes has done for the club.
I think he's done a very good job at Everton considering the financial constraints he's worked under. And I do believe that when he goes we will get relegated unless major investment is brought into the club.
I do find it funny that people believe other managers like Coyle, Nigel Clough(where the hell did that come from, hahaha), Ian Holloway would get us playing this great attacking winning football.
Thats not to say I think he is perfect, far from it, but he's a very good mnager who most players respect him.
You don't know what youve got tilits gone.
I do find it funny that people believe other managers like Coyle, Nigel Clough(where the hell did that come from, hahaha), Ian Holloway would get us playing this great attacking winning football.
Thats not to say I think he is perfect, far from it, but he's a very good mnager who most players respect him.
You don't know what youve got tilits gone.
I'll defend the team selection against Wigan Andy.
We played well against Villa and we should have won that game if our defence could keep clean sheets. At the moment they couldn't keep peas.
I take it you took exception to playing no forwards?
1) Cahill played upfront so all this 4-6-0 bullshit is written by idiots who can't see past the end of their nose.
2) Saha was not fit, Vellios is a young lad and maybe Moyes does not want to put too much pressure on him. We alll know Goodison is a bit anxious at the moment. Straq is not fit as he has said so himself.
3) We actually won the game so the slection was justified.
Now if Moyes had Messi, Villa and Torres in his squad I would be the first to have a go.
He has to go with the team he believes will win him the football match and guess what, we did.
FACT is no manager has achieved higher league placings than Moyes has on the budget he has been given.
I'll piss myself when/if he leaves cos we'll be relegated quickly after and then you can come back and apologise to him.
We played well against Villa and we should have won that game if our defence could keep clean sheets. At the moment they couldn't keep peas.
I take it you took exception to playing no forwards?
1) Cahill played upfront so all this 4-6-0 bullshit is written by idiots who can't see past the end of their nose.
2) Saha was not fit, Vellios is a young lad and maybe Moyes does not want to put too much pressure on him. We alll know Goodison is a bit anxious at the moment. Straq is not fit as he has said so himself.
3) We actually won the game so the slection was justified.
Now if Moyes had Messi, Villa and Torres in his squad I would be the first to have a go.
He has to go with the team he believes will win him the football match and guess what, we did.
FACT is no manager has achieved higher league placings than Moyes has on the budget he has been given.
I'll piss myself when/if he leaves cos we'll be relegated quickly after and then you can come back and apologise to him.
Dan Brierly (63) you say - "Yes, thanks for that incoherent ramble Eugene. You honestly make 'rain man' seem like a well versed politician sometimes".
Dan how cruel, you've made me feel exactly the way Dennis Healey felt in 1978, when attacked by Sir Geoffrey Howe in The House Of Commons.
Goodnight all!
Dan how cruel, you've made me feel exactly the way Dennis Healey felt in 1978, when attacked by Sir Geoffrey Howe in The House Of Commons.
Goodnight all!
Ryan, Tim Cahill, fine player as he is , is not a striker. Why should we get relegated if David Moyes goes? He has not had a fortune to spend but let's analyse what he has spent.
Andy Johnson; good signing badly used(chasing lost causes as a result of hoofball)
Yakubu; good signing, badly managed and sold cheaply as a result.
Beattie; bad signing.
Bily;good signing ,badly managed.
Fellaini; over expensive bad signing.
On the positive side Moyes's cheaper signings have been good. My point is, if he had made better signings when the money was available things might just have been better.
Andy Johnson; good signing badly used(chasing lost causes as a result of hoofball)
Yakubu; good signing, badly managed and sold cheaply as a result.
Beattie; bad signing.
Bily;good signing ,badly managed.
Fellaini; over expensive bad signing.
On the positive side Moyes's cheaper signings have been good. My point is, if he had made better signings when the money was available things might just have been better.
Andy #67, how can you ignore the money? Money dictates entirely today. He is lauded for building a top 5 or 6 team off the back of a bottom 5 or 6 budget, end off.
andy,
You make a mockery of yourself suggestin Bily who only cost £3m less than Fellaini is a better buy.
You make a mockery of yourself suggestin Bily who only cost £3m less than Fellaini is a better buy.
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1 Posted 21/09/2011 at 18:51:13
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