United expected to come back with increased offer

I believe 35-million is what is being mentioned, tell them where to go stick it, somewhere where the sun don't shine!

I don't think even £40 mill would be a good deal. I hope they both stay and somehow we can find some dosh for a striker. Pull the drawbridge up, make a statement for EFC.

I'd take £40M. Fellaini always seems more than ready to jump and Baines will be 29 soon so will need to be replaced in the next 3-4 years anyway. There'd also be a further £7.5M in salary saved per season.

The club need to be looking for the next baines and fellaini rather than try to hold onto players that demand £70k / week salaries. £40M would allow that to be done, with plenty left over to strengthen other positions, like centre back up top and left wing.

Everton already have their next left back on the roster in Bryan Oviedo. Similarly minded left-sided player. Reinvest that money not in Baines's replacement, who is already on the roster, but in central midfield, young center back, and striker.

Wayne

By the time we've paid off Liege and the remainder of Fellaini's contract
factored in the likelihood of less cash for lower league position and less TV appearances (no stars) it doesn't make good business sense at this stage

Add the prospect of spending what little we can keep from the banks on players of lesser ability who may take half a season to settle and, well, I'm against selling either of them

£35 million still way to low - Fellaini's clause was £24 million (so why would we sell for less than that?) Means they are rating Baines at £11million - £1million less than the £12million that was rejected.

At the end of the day (well as far as we as fans know from what we have been told) - we don't need to sell, the players have not come out and asked to leave so if UTD want the pair make them pay for them - min I would take is £40 million - but I think the club need to set a price and a deadline date and stick to it.

I think Baines is more valuable to the team than Fellaini. I don't think you could begrudge them choosing to join a champions league team if they do this window, but as usual we are being shafted here by the other team doing it so late. They hope we are desperate so we eventually accept a lower price. Its all brinkmanship here. If we hold our guns we either retain two very good players or we accept a large fee. I still think both options are attractive in their own way but it becomes increasingly less so now the season has started.

Whether Martinez see's the money as being more useful to buy other players than keeping the two, or whether the board want to pocket some money, or even see it as a good opportunity to invest in the squad and rebuild, I do think they would be happy to sell both.

So, seeing as I think that is their objective, they should take the offer of £35M if it is bid and give Roberto the money to sign who he wants while there's still some time to do so.

I would be surprised if Fellaini went for more than the original buy-out clause and I can't see Baines going for as much as £15M but even if he did then that would amount to £37.5M. If it is their intentions then it would be better to conclude business as early as possible so good replacements can be brought in because we will be significantly weaker without both Baines and Fellaini.

Apart from keeping the two players, the next best outcome would be Fellaini to Arsenal for £25m.

We really don't want to be trying to buy anyone with £35-40m in the kitty from these two. Any selling club are going to double the asking price, especially if it's the last few days of the window.

Apart from all that, what other PL club would sell their two best players a week into the fecking season?

40m + Rooney season long loan will be a good deal

this is a real test of our ambition.

If we have any serious thoughts of CL then we need to keep both and tell Moyes to go and bathe in the sunshine of his new position as we overtake them in the league.

Nice opener Jackie. Luv it.

Jay Harris , spot on. It's even worse when we clearly would not be willing to spend sufficient funds to replace with similar quality. As far as the season is concerned this could end it before September! It's that important.

It has probably been mentioned already but my main fear is that we will sell these two on deadline day itself thereby leaving us high and dry with no time to find replacements. I would assume Martinez has one or two lined up in case this happens but whether all this can be done before Sep 2nd is questionable.

I suppose the question is, have we got time to spend the cash? I mean £40m for the pair seems like reasonable money, but then really you'd want to be strengthening the squad, meaning 3 players in? Barry, Mcarthy, and a striker? Who is behind Oviedo in the pecking order for left back?

Interestingly the Guardian stated that Moyes wanted a release clause in Fellaini's contract of £30 million but had to settle for £23.5. In addition to this Standard Liege get 20% of any profit over the £17.5 we have apparently paid to date. Plus we would have to pay up Fellaini's contract, so selling him for less than his buy out clause makes no sense. So I'd say to Moyes if you want him it's £30 million otherwise he stays and clubs get the option to buy him next summer for £23.5 million.

Is that what happens when a player under contract is sold without asking for a transfer, that the selling club has to pay the rest of the contract? Surely not!

Kev that's my understanding of how these things work, which is why player's don't like asking for a transfer!

Kev - I think that is right, but should be factored into the selling price as a cost of sale

Jay (408) - "This is a real test of our ambition. If we have any serious thoughts of CL then we need to keep both".

Agree completely, plus from a financial position, unless it is a ludicrous offer, there's simply no point.

As has been pointed out, whatever the fee received, there are a lot of ways we could lose money/revenue without these players

If (as John Crawley 420 suggests via the Guardian) Moyes wanted £30m as Fellaini's get-out price when he was our manager (nb: a few short months ago) then Moyes should be told 'We are basing our figure on YOUR value of the player"

Another thing that bugs the shite out of me is that the (low) valuation of Baines seems to have been arrived at not because of his ability as a left back but because he's a fairly quiet feller who gets on with his job (and possibly because he doesn't play for Flash-Bollocks FC)

Remember, Ashley Cole eventually went to Chelsea for £5m plus William Gallas and Gallas was (presumably) valued at around £20m (because before the deal was done, Arsenal were adamant Cole wasn't leaving for less than £25m).

And that was 7 fucking years ago!

(ok, Cole was younger then than Baines is now, but it's not like Baines is 36 or that transfer prices are going down).

For a lot of different reasons, I believe the sensible, rational response to any offer under £50m would be 'Fuck off!"

I get the impression only Davey is committed to this deal.

Utd fans don't see the advantage of Baines over Evra and Fellaini is seen as a long ball option.

I'm sure people at utd are tuned in to the fans feelings hence this rather half hearted offer.

More than a touch of no-one else is interested Davey boy are you sure?

But missing out on Thiago, Fabregas and of course the Rooney saga puts Davey in his most proactive ie looking after number 1.

So no he won't be sure but he will be desperate.

MANCHESTER EVENING NEWS: Manchester United are facing a fight with Arsenal for Everton midfielder Marouane Fellaini.

hope so - now that Fellaini's release clause has expired it could start a bidding war - shame it'll be between 2 of the tightest clubs/managers out there though

Eugene does Golden-Balls play for Flash-Bollocks FC?

Too many of you are over-valuing Baines here. Yes, Leighton is a great player but he is 28 now and not many defenders of that age go for big money. Bayeryn would struggle to get £15 million for Lahm who is the same age as Baines. It's no good keeping hold of players who may've had their heads turned so we must cash in. £35M isn't bad... a little more would be nice but we need to make up our minds soon. It's either no sale unless above XYZ, or sell and replace quickly.

I have asked this before but no one seems to know but aren't we due 25% from Man Utd off any Rooney sell-on? That would be nice if he was sold for £35 million or more.

Patrick (440)

I don't think so, but FBFC are managed by Scrotumus Maximus. I believe he's a right ballbag!

Patrick (440) - "Eugene does Golden-Balls play for Flash-Bollocks FC?"

He used to, then he moved abroad to Club Flashos Cajones.

Then on to the U.S to join the soccer franchise The Hollywood Awesome Nuts.

He retired earlier this year (after a spell with French side Olympique Grande Testiqueles).

what about 35 million and Ashley young???

then Alderweireld 5m, McCarthy 12.5m, Siggurdsson 9m (from spurs)
and 9m left for jan.....

What about 35 mil rooney and RVP lets see how funny you think that is

I'm not certain, but I'd be shocked if we were liable for the remainder of any players contract if they decide to move to another club.

Don't forget, if we decide to sell a player, the player is within their rights to say they're not signing for another club. They have to agree to the move too.

What you sometimes see is that a player taking a wage cut to move clubs will request their existing club to pay extra to cover the shortfall. If clubs had to pay players regardless, this type of deal would never be requested because they would be getting paid twice already.

We're never going to get a better chance to sell the pair of them. We have a manager at a rich club who wants them, they're not past it yet, and they're about as good as they're going to get. I can't see Fellaini agreeing a contract extension in a few years time, so lets get rid now and rebuild while we can get a decent fee.

Steve. Alderweireld. Yes please. The others are decent lads but very expensive.

The transfer business is doing my head in. I'm nodding away to Eugene. Ditto to Barry. Ditto To Tony......even though they differ.

Tony way suits me best because he's not too bothered about money. He just wants it sorted now so we can move on.

Steve 454 - why does anyone think Ashley Young is any good? He's crap. Always has been, always will be. Crap.

Have heard Everton are that incensed by United's offer we've been back in touch with them and have come up with a "put up or shut up" ultimatum of £42m, valuing Fellaini at £25m and Baines at £17m....more to come on this methinks.

Just get rid of Fellaini and get Sigurdson and Mcarthy and well be fine

Where have you head it Brian?

I think we have to accept that if the champions of the Premier League want two players of quality to link up with their old manager who signed them both years ago, we're probably on a hiding to nothing.

I wouldn't grudge either of them a shot at medals; Baines particularly who has been a wonderful down to earth servant of the club and superb role model and footballer.

I just hope their departure (if it happens) means serious reinvestment for Martinez. I certainly trust Oviedo to step up from within the team.

How come nobody sees it like this, which seems blatanly obvious to me going off events and quotes from Martinez... The TV windfall this season has gone to servicing the debts/overdrafts, we got our usual £6m kitty, and now there is no immediate need to sell, as the manager has said alon the lines, we haven't got loads of money but we don't need to sell. So, the players are going nowhere unless they start doing a Suarez... or is that how EFC would like us to see it and shift the blame on the players when they cash in?

Here's something I heard from somebody connected to Baines way back at the start of the summer. His (Baines') dad said he's happy to stay at Everton but he doesn't know if EVERTON are going to sell him.

It fits doesn't it? He's made no fuss, he was asked by fans (recorded before Blackburn game) if he was going and answered with a shrug that said, I don't know.

Sorry, forgot the link:

http://www.sportsdirectnews.com/premier-league/30472-man-utd-news-everton-transfer-fury-deepens.php

Selling Baines would be complete madness. He would clearly be happy to stay so must be kept at all costs. He is our most consistent performer and source of assists.

Selling Fellaini I could live with but not for less than 25m.

For once we need to take a leaf out of the RS's book and state pay the price or fuck off. Sadly Kenshite is no Daniel Levy so expect a fee of around 35-40m to be agreed on deadline day

So RM says it's a waste of time but Sports Direct say increase the bid.

We cannot keep selling our best players and expect to get anywhere. We lost Arteta to Arsenal, Lescott and Rodwell to Man City, Rooney to Man Utd and now they are back for Fellaini and Baines. How can we get into the top four if we keep selling our best players to clubs already in the top four? Answer we can't.Like Liverpool with Suarez and Spurs with Bale we have to make a stand. Otherwise who's next, Barkley, Mirallas?

Frank I agree with you up to a point. My thinking is that Fellaini and Baines aren't in the same bracket. Fellaini is excellent in his day but if we could sell him and get 2 replacements I would be happy. Baines on the other hand is irreplaceable. Yes Oviedo is good but baines is better.

A chance for Martinez/BK to make a smart move. It has often felt as though we have a strange soft spot when it comes to business with ManU (Rooney out, Neville, Saha, Gibson and Howard in) which has the unpleasant feel of being patronised by some colonial power. Given Moyes/Utd year or more of shagging behind our backs now would be great time to make it clear that we would rather deal with any club but them. If Fellaini goes it would be pleasing if it was to a club which might take points of Utd and help make this an uncomfortable first season for OFM. Baines stays.

Tony Marsh @447 - my understanding is that 25% of the profit comes to us. We sold Rooney for £27m, so if he's sold again for £31m then that's £4m profit and we get £1m.

I've come across the rumour that Chelsea will be back in for him at £40m. That would mean [takes off shoes and socks] £4.25m comes to us.

Baines being irreplaceable says as much about him as a man as a player. I am going to make this suggestion knowing this may be unpopular, but does the view of Baines against the likes of Cole, Rooney etc. cloud our judgement? Similarly does the fact he is a local lad cloud judgement?

Whilst I wouldn't like to see him go IF he did with the Coleman/Mirallas axis I would suggest we could weather the storm somewhat better had this of been 12- 18 months ago. We couldnt replace Baines directly no, but I am not sure that we couldn't improve other areas to limit the loss if needs be. Like I say, I am not advocating selling him but looking at this as a worst case scenario. Opinions welcome

Does anyone here think Baines is possibly extremely positive about moving to Utd but is the true professional and top lad we know him to be, so he's letting everyone else do the talking and seeing how it plays out?

I mean; he has got to be ambitious right?

Trouble is Frank, were skint or almost skint!
If we'd more money we would probably keep some of our best players.

You mention young Ross, I see all the media predictably are headlining him, after he scored that great goal on match of the day.
As you say, will he be next, you can bet money on it that the money clubs will be sniffing around.
Its all to easy for young players to get their head turned, by all the attention before their ready to handle it.

Yes, part of Baines' appeal is that he is a very likeable local lad. At least it is for me. He partly restores my dwindling faith in the game of football, and is exactly the kind of person and player I want associated with my team.

We've all got "clouded judgement" haven't we Mark? We're all biased - in favour of Everton!

We get nothing more for any sale of Rooney no matter what the price. That was all sorted with previous incoming players from Utd.

I don't understand why some are fearing having to pay off Fellaini's contact...if he goes to United, we will not have to do that, I guarantee. He will not be moving against his will, and that 'paying off' notion very seldom occurs in reality. Just because something can happen, it doesnt mean it does happen.

And Guy...how exactly is Ashley Young a crap player? he was poor last season, but he was very good for Villa and weighed in with his far share of goals. He will certainly be an improvement on the Pienaar of last season, although personally I'd like us to go for Ince, if we get money from a sale.

And Frank...by selling those players you mentioned, we were able to reinvest in the likes of Fellaini, Baines, Lescott, Mirallas etc etc. We've no money...it's not as if we'd have been able to form a team with Rooney, Fellaini, Lescott, Baines, Mirallas, Arteta in etc... the later stars have come, because the earlier ones have left, often with a big mark up. If Fellaini goes, we will replace him...and quite probaly we will improve the first 11 and definitely the squad in the process. We do not have a realistic chance of progress, it's about maintaining our position. Spurs, who finished 9? points ahead of us last season, have brought in one of the best strikers in Spain for 26mil, an incredibly talented midfielder in Paulinho, plus Capoue and Chadil, both of whom would improve our first 11 imo. When Bale goes, they are likely to replace him with William and Lamela, and probaly another cb. We are completely outgunned, and until we get a buyer fourth is a pipe dream. Honestly, I think there is more chance of big spending Southampton or Swansea catching us, then us catching both Spurs and Arsenal and getting fourth, atm.

Clouded judgment perhaps Kev, and a rush of blood at the threat of United and Moyes taking advantage. I can see United getting our two lads, I just hope we have time to reinvest and pick ourselves up. If there is any chance whatsoever that they're off you'd hope Roberto already knows who he wants and is ready to move.

This Levy fellow seems to have the right approach to people who want his players.

Make them pay!!

Spurs have made some good 'sells' recently - ala Pienaar -= profit!!

Must be in their jeans!! (sic)

Pity our chairman has nothing in his jeans to match Levi (sic)!!

It's a pity King (can't do no wrong) Kenny still ain't at Anfield, he would have offered 90 million for the both of them.
20 million for Stuart Downing just gone for 5...........long live The King.

People are happy to see a squad taken apart before they even get to see what a bright, hugely promising new manager can do with it. Crazy! For all we know the change in manager could be the kick weneed to break the top 4. Selling 2 of our best players could be the difference... we will never know unless we keep them both for now.

Regarding Baines, Fellaini and the pathetic bid; I think they have different values using different value systems;
1) he is only worth what a buyer is willing to pay for him and to Man Utd that appears to be between 12 and 15 Mill for Baines and similar for Fellaini .
2) to me thier value is assessed using a different value system which on Baines past form is roughly 10+assist s, 120+ decent goal chances and 5-7 goals.
Felaini's past form equates to 10-12 goals, 5-8 assists. That could be translated as at least 4 league places. Based on that and the fact that we are still a football club in the business of winning matches and not a fucking shop I would not sell either player unless we had a 'takes your breath away' offer of 60 mill + and even then I would hesitate.

I just hope this saga is sorted sooner rather than later.

Would like Baines to stay but tbh if we get 40+ for the pair I would not be too disappointed as long as RM can reinvest the amount in 3-4 new players. A top class CM being top on the list.

Hopefully RM already has a few targets in mind so he can move quickly when we lose at least Fellaini - am pretty sure that Fellaini is ready to move anyway so might as well cash in.

As far as selling our best players is concerned, that's life. Players move on, when they do just need to make sure we get paid a fair price.

Jon Gorman-390-Great assessment of what our team needs to become a much stronger Team!!

Robbie Muldoon, spot on.

I am sick to death of us selling our top stars to strengthen teams we are trying to get above. I cannot understand anyone saying it's not a bad deal if we get £35M to £40M when the season has just started. Who are we going to get now? I will tell you who: no-one.

And even if we did, how long would it take for them to settle in? (Look at Kone.) And when it goes Pete Tong, them same people will be moaning like hell when our season is over in January again.

Sadly though it's going to happen, with Billy Gobshite stating, "How could I stand in their way for Champions League football? I have followed my beloved Blues now for nearly fifty years, if this happens – end of... till that shower of crap are gone.

Dithering, Dreary, Hypocritical Dour Dave just doesn't get it does he? WE DON'T WANT TO SELL MATE. No wonder you haven't signed anyone. Find someone else. Look at AVB, one bid, and he's got 'em.

If they hand in transfer requests lets sell em, but only for 43 mill plus. If they don´t however hand in requests and want to stay I say we tell Moyes and Utd to fuck off by saying "no they are not for sale at any price"

Why are so many of our fans ready to give Felli away for £25m? If Suarez is worth £50m and bale £80m then Felli should be in the £30-40m region. Have we already been beaten into quiet submission?

What we all know but do not want to admit is that this deal has probably already been agreed for around £40 million.

What will happen next is banter in the press while we wait for transfer deadline day. Then we will have the board telling us that the club just cannot turn down the generous offer from Man Utd for the pair and they are sold.

Roberto Martinez will then be allocated around £7.5 million to spend in the transfer window while the £32.5 million goes to pay off "our debt" or into Bill's account. But because we are probably now around the 9:45 mark on deadline day, it is too late for us to sign anyone. But not to worry — the money will be there along with more when the January transfer window opens.... Yeah right!!!

A good bit of anchoring by Man U. Everton should go back and say either 'not for sale' or £60m... Then start to negotiate.

If either or both are going to be sold then I hope we've got replacements lined up, and quality ones at that, otherwise we shouldn't even entertain the thought of selling either.

That being said, there is a good argument on cashing in on Baines before he turns 30. Not that I want to see this happen, it's just we can't on the one hand say the people who run the club are financial idiots and not entertain the thought of them selling before the value of a player dramatically drops due to age.

The idea that Moyes at United should be willing to pay the same as Moyes would have demanded while at Everton is flawed reasoning, because it suggests that the players are of equal value to the clubs, and that just ain't the case.

While the 28M bid is "derisory and insulting" to Everton, there is every chance in the world that 28M is the actual value ManU place on the pair, because they have a different valuation perspective. Consider:

1. Buyer valuation (United)--this is the value that a specific interested party would be willing to pay for the players going forward into the future. This value will be different for each investor, because each buyer has different needs at that position (i.e., is it to bolster the position? or to fill an empty position?), different abilities to attract similar-quality players, and different amounts of cash in the bank to meet other needs. United don't exactly "need" either Baines or Fellaini--as demonstrated by the fact that they won the league last year in a walk. These players would be strengthen or deepen the squad--to help push them up a tick or two in Europe and/or to simply make them more robust to inevitable injuries and suspensions.

2. Seller valuation (Everton)--as the seller, Everton have to value Baines & Fellaini from the perspective of a club who will _lose_ the assets and have to replace them immediately. Because Everton have a decidedly inferior position when it comes to attracting star players (can't offer CL play, can't offer egregious wages), they should absolutely place a much, much higher price tag on star players than Buyers would, because they know that replacing a star will cost Everton more (if not be impossible) than it would cost another club.

I'm not defending United per se, or saying that we should accept low bids, but simply saying that Moyes bidding less as a buyer than he demanded as a seller does not indicate hypocrisy at all.

How anyone here could be happy with £35-40M for the pair 2 weeks before the window shuts is beyond me.

We bought Fellaini for £15M 5 years ago. Regardless of what anyone thinks of him, he's one of the most dynamic midfielders in the Prem. If you can find another 6'-4" monster that endlessly wins tackles/aerial duels while simultaneously being a goal threat when given license to roam, in our budget, then by all means point him out.

Baines is the best attacking full back in the world bar none with the statistics to prove it. In an age where 28-year-old Fernandinho goes for £30M and Matt fucking Jarvis goes for £12M, you'd be an absolute moron to settle for anything less than £50M.

I'm aware that we could further build the depth of the squad with the money, but we haven't even seen what this unit can be under the new manager. Barkley has already fired the first shot of intent. Kone, Alcaraz, Deulofeu, Stones, and Oviedo all will have parts to play this season and who knows what their true added benefit to the team really will be under Martinez. Selling now would be a complete abortion of the season. It's unnecessary.

Arsenal is in shambles. Tottenham have a new team that won't gel overnight. If now isn't the time to take a shot, when will we ever take one? I'll be damned if the best opportunity to make a run at CL comes and then we hand over our spine to United with a fucking bow on it.

Michael Laudrup, when asked about potentially selling Michu to Arsenal if a big offer came said "You could say we got the money, but why be the richest club in the Championship? What is that worth?"

Do we want to be the richest club in the bottom half of the table? Because that's precisely where we'll be if we sell. Still in Premier League purgatory with an even higher mountain to climb.

We were 10 points off the CL pace last season. We had 15 draws. Turn 5 of them into wins and you have a real shot. As you know, our performance against the top teams was excellent. It was our play against weaker sides that cost us valuable points. Norwich, QPR, Wigan, READING, and Fulham come to mind. We've kept all of our important players and added Kone and Deulofeu for more goals up front. Barkley is the surprise of the team. Mirallas is fit. Martinez clearly wants to attack more, which can only help the cause. If we keep Baines and Fellaini, is it really that crazy to consider 4th as a possibility? At least that's a real goal to push for. Cashing in now is forcing Martinez to essentially shape the squad for the next 3-4 years within 2 months of taking the job, without even assessing the strength of HIS team under HIS guidance.

I'm sick and fed up with all this business. How it will effect the West Brom game is anyones guess. It certainly won't help, that's for sure.
Norwich was yet another example of how to throw points away and we can't afford to let it happen again. Cash strapped sides like Everton will need to get plenty of points on the board before those with rich investments settle down and start to gel.

Chatting about performances and possible line-ups is normally quite enjoyable but the Fellaini/Baines situation is ruining everything. It's all....If this.. and if that. Sign him...No, sign him. We need a CB or an LB.....or maybe an RM a CM or a DM.

Yes. That's me...On the floor waving the white flag.
Can't take it any more. I've had enough.

Have to say I agree with Peter Jones on this one, the seasons started and there's not enough time left to start losing your two best players. Moyes made a bid for Baines at end of July, was told no and then comes back 7 weeks later with the same bid!

Unless Fellaini puts in a transfer request I wouldn't sell him. Moyes could have avoided all of this by simply paying the release clause before the end of July. He hasn't done that - so that's his problem, not ours.

Spot on John #647.

When they bid £28m we should've taken control and said '£50m, final comment, put up or shut up", and put the whole thing to bed.

£28m!?!?

But in the mean time he's probably destabilized our two best players until at least January. Thanks for that David, you're all heart, look forward to seeing you in April.

Quite right Mike, but the most destabilized player in all this must be Patrice Evra.

My feeling is that it all comes down to the players' worth to the team and in Baines and Fellaini you have our top assist maker and our top scorer from last season. They are totally integral to our team and as such anything less than £40m for the pair would be to quote RM a 'waste of time'. That may change of course if one or both of them puts in a transfer request. Unlike the RS I don't want anyone at the club who really does not want to be there.

Spot on, Mike Green.
United are desperate to buy, but we aren't desperate to sell. £50m and not a penny less! The sheer lateness of it means we would have to pay more for replacements ourselves.
About time our board had some balls.

Lack of money is the one & only factor that is stopping us becoming a top 4 side.

If we could go out now and buy 2 or 3 top players to add to our squad as it now, there is a much greater chance that Fellaini & Baines would want to stay.
They would recognize that with the new players we would mounting a very serious attack on the top 4 & CL football.

Success breeds success & the extra money generated could be used to strengthen the team even more.
Until the ownership of the club is changed we are more likely to sink than to rise!

If there is one player who has consistently performed, loves playing for his boyhood club, looks happy, content and has a great relationship with us, it's Leighton. If the club don't want to sell I don't think he'll go anywhere. For him I think it's about playing for EFC, he wants us to be successful.

Fellaini on the other hand is a different kettle of fish. He has no affinity, doesn't really have a relationship with us and has been prattling on about CL football for two years. I don't think he gives a crap which shirt he wears as long as his career progresses.

If we receive two separate bids and the one for Fellaini is £20m+, I'd sell him. He isn't the reason we finish in the top six. The new monied European teams aren't exactly fighting each other over him which speaks volumes. He was first class for the first month of last season then he went missing. Give Liege £500k and we move on.

Leighton?, we keep, unless it's absolutely silly money.

James (653) - Re the lateness, all it would take would be an announcement from us along the lines..

"To be able to prepare fully for a new campaign, without distraction, Everton FC will not be selling ANY player, under ANY circumstances, once the club is within 7 days of the kick-off of a new season (or for the remainder of the same transfer window). ANY buying club wishing to do business with Everton FC during the summer transfer window MUST have concluded their business before this time".

In fact I'd love it if ALL clubs put out something similar as the transfer window imo is a fucking joke and it's main purpose appears to be to fill dead time on Sky.

Sky nob: "THE EXCITEMENT IS BUILDING, THE TENSION IS UNBEARABLE AS THE CLOCK TICKS DOWN! ONLY..er..37 DAYS, 5 HOURS, 27 MINUTES AND 18 SECONDS LEFT BEFORE THE DOOR SLAMS SHU..." etc wank waffle blah

I'm with Peter Jones on this one, how any Everton fan can say we should accept 35 or 40 million is beyond me. Fernandinho to city at the same age is £30 million - an unproven premiership player. Baines is the best chance creater in the premiership - PROVEN! How can any one say that from left back isn't worth top dollar? It's beyond me. Also these two players are probably worth between 2 and 5 league positions when you take out their goals/assist, how much is that worth in TV money and sponsorship?

And to avoid any doubt about paying contracts up, if United do come in with £50 million plus then the players should also be made to hand in requests.

Let's not be bullied anymore. We want to move this club forward, not maintain position, we'll do that best with these two players in our side

To succeed, you do NOT sell your best assets . Fellaini is a fabulous player. I cannot understand the willingness of some forum members to let him go. Man U can do and do a big one...end of professional story.

I'm sorry but this whole Baines-Fellaini ordeal with ManU is making me lose respect for David Moyes. How can he expect us to give both these players up for 35mil when he himself valued both of them around 22.5? It's really insulting to the club, and makes me think that he views us as some inferior club who will accept any money for any player.

I find this idea that ManU offer less than the release clause figure for Fellaini really nonsensical. The clause was there to enable him to go if the price and team was right, at his (agent's) request presumably - why the fuck would we take less for him after the clause has expired? It makes no sense to me at all.

As for Bainesy, it's just unbelieveable to suggest £12m is his value given his performance in recent seasons. Totally fucking laughable.

I'm glad though that Moyes is being such a cockhead in all this, makes it easier to dislike him now. Can't believe I used to defend and respect the guy.

I am fairly sure there is an FA or FIFA rule that a player who does not put in a transfer request is entitled to 10 % of the fee.
For him to lodge a request and he forfiets that 10%

Hope I'm wrong but I think that Sean #580 is the closest. Seems to me that this whole thing has been orchestrated so that Bill can turn around and say that he tried his best to keep hold of these two but at least he managed to negotiate a further £12m or so. I heard from a reliable source that the so called fees involved in the Torres sale and Carroll purchase were nothing like what was actually transacted - it just made it easier for LFC and Newcastle to justify the sale of Fans' favourites "(we didn't want to but look at what we got"). I realise the issue here is different but these days there is an awful lot of spin surrounding transfer activity.As Sean says, odds are that the deal has been struck.

Peter Jones 640: Reads post... *stands*, *claps hands*.

THAT'S THE RIGHT ATTITUDE!

Again... wow:

"How anyone here could be happy with £35-40M for the pair 2 weeks before the window shuts is beyond me.

We bought Fellaini for £15M 5 years ago. Regardless of what anyone thinks of him, he's one of the most dynamic midfielders in the Prem. If you can find another 6'-4" monster that endlessly wins tackles/aerial duels while simultaneously being a goal threat when given license to roam, in our budget, then by all means point him out.

Baines is the best attacking full back in the world bar none with the statistics to prove it. In an age where 28-year-old Fernandinho goes for £30M and Matt fucking Jarvis goes for £12M, you'd be an absolute moron to settle for anything less than £50M.

I'm aware that we could further build the depth of the squad with the money, but we haven't even seen what this unit can be under the new manager. Barkley has already fired the first shot of intent. Kone, Alcaraz, Deulofeu, Stones, and Oviedo all will have parts to play this season and who knows what their true added benefit to the team really will be under Martinez. Selling now would be a complete abortion of the season. It's unnecessary.

Arsenal is in shambles. Tottenham have a new team that won't gel overnight. If now isn't the time to take a shot, when will we ever take one? I'll be damned if the best opportunity to make a run at CL comes and then we hand over our spine to United with a fucking bow on it. "

I wish all the conspiracy theorists would just stop!
Fact: Utd bid 12 million for in June and were dismissed .
Fact: Utd bid a "derisory " 28 million for two players last week and were dismissed .
That's whats happened nothing more nothing less. So I wish all these people who think its some master plan by Kenwright to look the hero/villain in the piece just stop making themselves look stupid!
Will they go? Won't they go? Who knows and to be honest I'm bored to death by it! I'm just looking forward to Saturday and seeing the boys smack WBA .
Until its on the OS or Man Utds website with them holding red shirts I don't care!

You mark my words, we will sell one, or possibly both, of these players late on deadline and we'll put in the typical fake bids for players and then get the usual bollocks from the likes of Elstone about 'not having time to spend the money'.

See it all before.

£20m extra from a new TV deal and we are still seemingly the most skint club in the Premier League getting outspent by the likes of Norwich and Southampton.

What if that TV money has gone to the bank though Ste? Maybe we're just out of pocket but no longer in debt?

Martin Handley. If you are 'bored' with the Baines/Fellaini transfer stuff, it begs the question why are you reading and posting in a thread about it??

If you want to talk about a run of the mill Premier League game like the one on Saturday, go and find a thread about it.

Well I have been critical of Fellaini and said we should sell, however I am at a loss to think who we would replace him with. I have seen our performance without him and think we are much, much stronger with him there, I hope he stays.

We should all forget about Moyes. Everton have been going 135 years and Moyes was here for all of eleven years, and won nothing.Lets move on from him he's all for Man Utd now

Jamrs #695, obviously other clubs don't reckon he's worth £23.5m so that's why nobody has bid for him at that figure.

Why would we accept less? Because that's what's been offered and our manager has been told he has to sell to buy so if he wants a new player an old one has to go.

Bloody annoying isn't it Ste?
I really thought, given the new TV deal, we would be out there competing for players, but its the usual thing, where is all this cash?
Even if it isn't paid all in one go, is that all we have to spend? ( The Kone money, plus a little extra) ?
The Everton black hole would give Stephen Hawking nightmares trying to describe it??!!

Robbie #712, our debt is much more than the extra £20m we get for the telly deal. That will only just cover our annual loss.

Martin

"Until its on the OS or Man Utds website with them holding red shirts I don't care"

There are may others like your good self and that is a major reason Kenwright and cronies have such an easy ride

Ian #687, Baines' boyhood club Is the RS

Watching this play out I've changed my mind on all of this a bit. This is all about market value, and value to Everton, supply and demand.

Currently (and according to Arsene Wenger) there doesn't appear to be many good quality players available, and this seems to be the case with Moyes failing abysmally in the transfer market and Bale being priced at around £95m and Suarez at ~£40m, even though he's a liability.

Everton MUST demonstrate that they are competitive and follow Tottenham, Liverpool and Man Utd's lead (with Rooney). If these teams are struggling to secure new talent this means there is a real competitive advantage to be had, in the Premier League by keeping our most sought after players.

Fellaini and Baines, are now even more so, potentially the difference between us having a chance of qualifying for the Champions League or having no chance of doing so. With the value of doing this alone set at between £20m-£50m to the club on it's own.

With the current market inflation I'd guess values are at least, £25m for Fellaini and £15m for Baines, everything considered. Not taking into account the difference CL qualification might have

Obviously you don't want to be left with players who don't want to play, but Baines doesn't strike me as that kind of player. Felli, maybe.

This is a real opportunity to upset the apple cart, the club needs to be strong and not mess this up.

Martin (707) - "Will they go? Won't they go? Who knows and to be honest I'm bored to death by it!"

Ahh, the implied 'I'm a calm adult and you're all excitable kids' post - a TW favourite of mine!

Yes Martin, you're so bored, you're (OBVIOUSLY!) reading loads of posts/threads on the subject.

Seriously why come onto a thread to tell the world the contents of the thread bores you?

Tip: If you want a different subject, one that informs and stimulates and is anything but boring, why not bleedin' start one.

Hats off though for not adding 'get over it' (nb: the completely and utterly meaningless narky-faced teenage girl-ism, so often used by those who feel the need to tell us how boring something is).

Almost all transfer speculation is repetitive because there's a desire for something to happen but, usually, nothing ever does. Shouldn't there be plural of the word 'tedious'?

Anyway, the great thing about these threads is that it presents another opportunity to vent at OFM and that souless t-shirt selling company down the road.

Eugene

Like you, I'm not bored in the slightest.
This is the period of the year when its a free for all.
Sod Wenger and his self righteous shite.
I couldnt give a shite who says what about certain players, let it all hang out.
EFC bid for unknown kid at Accrington Stanley----- yes, and 52 pints of milk per year, who are they???

Eugene

Not to mention...ah say, not to mention, son...."end of"

According to the MEN United have given up on Baines and are going after Soton's left back

From a business pt of view, if we could get Luke shaw for £8m I'd sell Baines for £15m. If Shaw continues to improve he will be worth glen Johnson money due to his young age

I would also point out that even if we got 50 million for them who would we spend it on?

The only reason Man U are showing any interest in Fellaini and Baines is because all the other big money players they tried to sign either knocked them back or signed for another club with a better manager.

Liverpool have cash burning a hole in their collective pocket yet keep getting knocked back, as confirmed by the recent Willian bid. Signed for Spurs.

These days top players want at least 2 of the following 3 conditions.
1. Champs League,
2. 100 grand per week minimum
3. A London (or other capital city) club.

The facts are that Everton are a mid sized club in a provincial city. No big name player is going to sign for us. The only reason Fellaini did was because he was young and daft. He wouldn't sign today.

We will just end up frittering it away paying over the odds in fees and wages for over rated British players like McCarthy. If he's that good why is no other club trying to buy him?

Sometimes keeping players is more important than getting money. This is one of those times.

Robbie Muldoon 712

And perhaps Greece are no longer in debt

Lets give them £100k a week then to stay, sign Sinclair and Barry. Sell Heightinga and Jelavic, and use that money and wages to sign Lukaku or Ba. One of who must be surpluss when Chelsea sign a forward.

Steve Pugh. Didn't you used to play for Everton?

The Shaw thing is interesting. This boy is absolute dynamite. Whatever his value he is worth every single penny.

The tragic thing is that young Alan here isn't even joking. He genuinely believes this sort of thing is plausible.

Alan, we are not offering anyone £100k per week. Have you noticed that you are the only one who's advocating such a strategy? It's because its ridiculous!

And Lukaku?!?!?! Seek help

Any sign of those who were pompously posting...."Ohhhh I am fed up trying to explain to you why clubs won't bid less than the clause figure"......" You really must be from a different planet if you believe that"......" Etc etc

Obviously Phil. Alan must live next door to Kenwright in Cloud Cookoo Land. Your strategy Alan would bankrupt us even more.

Is that aimed at me, Paul?

Phil you German,
I know it's ridiculous! The pt is, that it shouldn't be. Given the extra tv money etc.. Also Lukaku on loan never bankrupted west brom. If Chelsea decide to play Lukaku this season then signing Ba would not bankrupt us either.

Fellaini must be on £80k at least already. Arteta was on 75 two seasons ago.

How can you be bankrupted even more Ross you fool? You either bankrupt or your not.

Spending an extra £3m a year in wages on Baines and Felli would hardly send us over a financial cliff. You could save £3m a year just by selling Hieghtinga!

Not a hard choice that.

Go on moaning doomsayers, just lay off the insults you pair of retards. I'm only trying to raise our expectations and demand more from our club!

Why, were you one of them Phil?

No, you just posted it after me so I thought you might have been insinuating something.

Who said no club would bid under the release clause?

"lay off the insults you pair of retards"

You want us to stop but you've called me and Phil retards.

Bit contradictory don't you think?

Throw in Ba, Lukaku and Sinclair in as much as you like Alan but Bill won't sign them.

The only thing that would raise expectations and cheer us up would be the departure of Bill.

Phil,

That's a strange logic you have.
Ross Edwards posted to Phil after my post.
Did he get my name wrong?Was it aimed at me?

Why would we sell to one of our title rivals?

Paul

So who thought nobody would bid less than the release clause for Fellaini? I know you don't like been taken to task on your statements - but if you wouldn't mind answering this one direct question.

Taken to task?
Hahaha

No answer though Paul. What a surprise.

I'm scared to supply one Phil,in case you take me to task.

Paul

Who were the people saying that there would be no bids under Fellaini's release fee?

Don't be scared.

It's another ridiculous offer! £35m is still short of the absolute minimum that any sane person could quantify - that being above Fellaini's release clause (£24m) and above the £12m already rejected out of hand by Everton. Those two figures alone are £36m. That should have been United's start point - which we would have rejected, but not been insulted by.

We should be looking for £30m for Fellaini and £20m for Baines - which is £50m

Split between the two figures and settle at £43m - that's the lowest we will go!!

Is that aimed at me Alisdair?
If so I agree 100%

Hilarious.

Can't answer a question, Paul?

There are some awful comments on here from the sell sell sell brigade. I am toal fed up of idiots believing everything the board say or the way the media portray us as a busker everyone feels sorry for. All I ever want for Everton since i've supported the club is the best possible team and plenty of ambition. Not once have I ever thought about us selling players that are guaranteed starters and are hunted by clubs that win trophies. Everythin else is irrelavent to me, That means all the figures the board come out with and the shite you Sheep believe about us being well ran and fighting the banks to survive etc etc. All of that is shite and nothing a football fan should even talk about. Yes its a money game an a business but we're just here for the football and to me, a fan of 30 years, selling your best midfielder and replacing him with Wigans best midfielder is an idea a proper Evertonian should laugh off. Nothing against McCarthey but hes got nothing in terms of footballing education compared to Fellaini. Some fans need to look at themselves and ask whats right, Southampton looking to improve their squad or us gambling on rebuilding ours,(again). Who did Southampton sell to break their transfer record twice? answer is nobody and thats exactly the kind of ambition every club should show. We're fans not pundits so put your calculators away and stop all this sell to buy shite giving the tight arse board every excuse to keep doin business this way. Them board members don't spend a penny that isn't givin to them by another club and some mugs find it acceptable. Remember our logo and cut out all the (in a robotic voice) 'thats all the club can do' bollocks.
Bid for Messi haha

The 'Bankrupt us even more' comment shows exactly how some fans come on here and quickly comment without actually thinking through a logical idea or discussion. Easy mistake yes but a rapid empty reply.

Can we forget the £23m release clause its meaningless, you didn't see any clubs knocking our door down to buy Fellaini when they had the chance to buy him for that figure.
Any offer for him now, was always going to be less, I'd say £20m is the most we can expect.

The first thing I would do if I was in charge is ask the players if they wanted to leave, if they said no, end of story! That is unless RM fancies selling one of them to finance the purchase of other players.
If they said yes, I'd say ok you can go if we can get what we think your true value is, if we don't your staying, fair enough.
The tricky bit is do you tell the players what figure you want, the juries out on that.
I think £20m each is fair, but not a penny less.

Raymond.

Well said.
The majority of us realised that £23 million was never going to be the fee.
It must be said a few of us didn't realise.

Phil sammon

You regularly fail to answer direct questions on here all the time, then wait for your chance to jump on someone who's won a debate with you on previous threads

If an Everton player on £100k is so ridiculous. Tell me how much you think Fellaini gets paid? We're do you think £63m players wage bill goes, considering we have only about 22 senior players? And we're did £23.5m buy clause come from? I'd his wages over the length of his contract otherwise why agree to it?

Ray - it's not really a good idea to let contracted employees come and go as they please, regardless of whether their valuation is met or not.

As I said in another thread - I can't believe any club with ambition would let their two best players leave one week into the season. We don't have to sell, and a new manager needs all the help he an get.

People always bang on about loyalty - yet we are prepared to see our player of the year out of the door if we can get a few more million for him than has been offered.

At least let the new man get his feet under his desk before we rip the heart out of the side.

Paul the fee hasn't been set yet, if at all. Once he's sold you can settle your local squabble with Phil/whoever.

Is that aimed at me Nick?

Alan Smith, the only knobheads who thought Glen Johnson was worth Glen Johnson money were the RS replay his mercurial skills against Germany in the World Cup when Engerland got the twatting they deserved, he was still halfway up the pitch as Germany waltzed through the pitch and bore down on goal

Kevin in a perfect world I'd agree with you, I too would like us to keep all our best players but unfortunately the team we support doesn't have the financial clout of your utd, city, chelsea or play in the CL this year.

I say I'd let them go because I don't think its a good idea to keep them if wish to be elsewhere, I could be wrong.
In this league the strong are getting too strong & visa versa.

He had a chance to take out Ozil too, but didn't want to booked, says a lot about his character, not willing to miss next game for the sake of his country.

I'm pretty sure Luke Shaw is better defender than him though and will get better going forward as his confidence grows

Alan Smith,

I had noticed that.
He's like a dog with a bone.
It's only a bit of fun,no need to get vindictive when you come off worse in a debate.

Amen

To Eugene, sorry I didn't reply but I've been to work.

As for the poster who put Saturday's game as a run-of-the-mill one, it's far from it: it's the first time in 11 years we've had someone who isn't David Moyes in charge, the beginning of a new era if you like and hopefully a far more exciting one on the pitch than we've had in a long time.

Also, according to the Manchester media, it looks like Moyes has got fed up as well and is going for Shaw from Southampton and Ozil from Real Madrid.

Also, the guys I work with that support Man Utd don't particularly want two "scouse cast-offs"... can't wait for Rooney to go then!

The whole ideas you have come up with recently are absolutely barking Alan. Always thought you had some decent points but ideas such as signing Rooney on some strange one year deal, paying people 6 figure salaries, the idea that Luke Shaw is a genuine transfer target considering Southampton's spending and genuinely believing that Gareth Barry or Scott Sinclair are an answer is making me think otherwise.

£50 million for the pair, minimum.

I value Baines at £22 million, and £28 million for Fellaini only because of age. If Baines was 2 to3 years younger, I would value him nearer £30 million.,

The club should tell Man Utd or whoever, if they really want the players, they have to pay the going rate. The cheek of it, it's not as if they're skint. Personally I would sell Fellaini and keep Baines.

Yeah. Alan does have many crazy ideas but his principles as a True Blue are pretty sound and come from the heart.

Mark

Sinclair and Barry are RM transfers targets according to press.

Luke shaw is as a ridiculous, as us selling Baines for £12m. I also suggested Butner and money in exchange for baines, they're just examples of how to keep value and quality in the squad should Baines go.

All footballers are on six figure salaries that's only £1m a year. But I know what you mean, the £100k a week. Well if you think Fellainis on £80k as most do. and its a fact we have the 7th highest wage bill and a small squad...it's safe to assume that sooner rather later, we will have a player on £100k. If you don't agree tell me were there £63m player wages goes.
Baines is due a deal if he stays, do you think his agent will ask for less than £100k? Do you want him to stay? Will the world end if he gets it?

If him and Fellaini leave we get a £40m windfall. And save £160k on wages. It's safe to assume that with club needing to stay in top 8 to break even its just a matter of time before they pay someone that amount. Barkley in next summer, to insure we get him tied down with big release clause? Perhaps

No ones answered a simple question yet. Why did Fellaini agree to £23.5 m buy out clause? It's because that's what his wages add up to over the length of his contract. These figures don't come out of thin air...he's already on 90k not the 75-80 people just guess at based on nothing. I've based mine on the release clause, number of players and high cost of wage bill.

As for Rooney, I mentioned the option of a straight swap if Felli and Baines decide to go. His wages would be £10m year, fellainis, baines and half of heightingas put together. To convince Rooney you'd have to agree to let him go Chelsea next year if he wanted to. It satisfies his desire to leave utd, we get a quality player for at least one year (he may decide to stay after we finish 4th) and still get the fee we wanted for Baines and Fellaini the following summer.

It's been done before when certain clubs wouldn't sell to rivals. And in this case he's coming home and wouldn't have to unsettle his family move house etc

The position were in requires left field thinking. You moan about the situation all you like. Or you can be REALISTIC, look at the problem, use the budget we have and come up with solutions.

Look at how brilliant the Deulofeu deal is. If he plays more than 50% of games he costs us nothing. Would I have been barking to suggest that deal three months ago? A barca starlet free for year.

I don't think the Rooney one is realistic due to his sponsorship commitments and his desire to win trophies every year. But the budget allows it and would he rather get stuck at utd? Could a charismatic manager talk him into it? Probably not. But it might muddy the waters long enough for utd and Chelsea to get desperate and start offering some real compensation Evertons way, during the next 2 weeks of negotiations. Or we may even get to keep them.

If we come out of loosing Fellaini and Baines, with Butner, plus Jones/Anderson and Ba/Lukaku. Then we will still be in good shape and should have money to buy McCarthy and Sinclair as well....especially if we offload Hieghtinga and Jelavic.

Go on rip it apart boys

By the way I'd rather they just stay and we get Sinclair for the £5m being quoted and Barry on loan.

But some of you will have to accept players on £100k then wooooh nervous break downs. we broke the mystical figure and increased the wage bill to £70m in the same year the turn over increased £25m to £105m minimum and spent £11-12m on transfers.

Why would Leighton go to Man U when he is not guaranteed a first team spot?

Felli would have to step up a bit to play for the champions regularly as well. If he was struggling there would always be a top class player waiting to take his place and he could go crazy horse with frustration. Ummm.

Phil, read this thread to see who was saying there would be no bids under Fellaini's release fee.

http://www.toffeeWeb.com/season/13-14/comment/talkingpoints/article.php?submissionID=25295

As I recall there were only 2 posters that said clubs are waiting for the clause to expire to bid less, and Paul was one of them.

Ray #914, exactly right.

There may be an advantage in telling the player what you want for him in that he will tell his agent and the agent can hawk him around clubs with a price in the frame.

Then he can see if anyone wants him or not. If they don't he can put up and shut up and get on with the game.

Alan #965, you make a plausable argument for your theories, however left field they may be, but can you tell me where you got the £105m turnnover in post 966?

Last year was our record turnover which was around £83m off the top of my head?

Eric,978

It was pretty obvious how the situation would turn out,thanks for the link.

Phil Sammon,
What are your thoughts having re read the thread Eric sent link to?

Paul, Eric - I was one of the posters who got into this debate too. We were called thick and treated quite rudely weren't we, for daring to suggest that Fellaini might go for less, and that people like Moyes were just waiting for the clause to elapse so they could get him for market value.

Well he'll probably go for £20m, and late in the window too.

Paul, Eric - I was one of the posters who got into this debate too. We were called thick and treated quite rudely weren't we, for daring to suggest that Fellaini might go for less, and that people like Moyes were just waiting for the clause to elapse so they could get him for market value.

Well he'll probably go for £20m, and late in the window too.

Mark,

As I said to Eric it wasn't rocket science.
Pretty obvious what would happen.
You are right though re the posts ridiculing our opinions.
They will be feeling Roger Hunts now

At the risk of turning this into a " I am Spartacus!" debate I also said that clubs could (and would) offer less for Fellaini after the expiration of his clause.
In the above mentioned thread on the 03/08/2013 at 07:30:52 I wrote that "once the clause has expired any club can offer considerably less than the reported £23m and still get Fellaini. " and I still think that will happen if Bungling Bill has his way.

Actually if you read the posts Eric what most of them are saying is that United could have offered less before the clause expired and Everton could have accepted less before the clause expired. This is a definition of the release clause for you and Paul to read

The release clause (RC) fee is the minimum amount of money that a club has to accept for a particular player. So to answer your question, if Player A has a RC fee of €40M, bidding €39,9M could be rejected if the club doesn't want to sell the player, but they cannot reject €40M, and thus have to give permission for the bidding team to offer a contract to the player in question. A recent example of this is transfer of German talent Mario Götze from B. Dortmund to Bayern FC for €37M. The really interesting bit of it all was the timing of announcement of this transfer as well as the clash between these two rival teams in the Champions League final 2013 on which the Götze did not play due to a hamstring injury.

The main motivation behind having release fee for a player is to give the player some flexibility in case the player is interested in joining another club but the his club is not willing to sell. Having a release clause fee avoids some sort of modern "slavery" and gives players a way out of a unfavourable situation.

From another point of view, it's also a way for the clubs to show roughly how much they value a player. So imagine Lionel Messi and Barcelona; the release fee is around £215M. That's of course an absurd amount of money for a single player, but what that essentially means is that Barcelona FC values Lionel Messi A LOT, he's practically invaluable.

Obviously minimum release fee has some benefits for the player, and to an extent to the club to protect their rights with investment on a player. However more often than not, a club would not be willing to have a minimum release clause on a contract, since not every player is as loyal as Messi, i.e. a player might get frustrated if a club had the minimum release fee to an absurd amount. Some leagues, e.g. La Liga, mandate for all player contracts to have a minimum release fee clause. In other leagues it happens to varying degree.

Nobody said that he wouldn't go for less afterwards, they just said that it was ridiculous to think that United were waiting for it to expire before they bid, they were simply waiting for their preferred choices to decline them.

We have to change this perception that we are a selling club.

If we don't take a stand now - then what happens with Barkley - even as early as the Xmas window - by which time he'll probably (hopefully) be a star?

Baines - DO NOT SELL.

Fellaini - at least 25m. At the very least.

Eric/Paul

Despite about 100 posts on the subject, you still seem incapable of grasping my point.

It's not that Fellaini wouldn't go for say £20M, it's that nobody was waiting for the release clause to expire before offering this amount. They could have bid £20M in July and got their man - had we accepted the bid. I can't recall a single person saying that Fellaini wouldn't be sold for below his release clause.

Eric's main point was that Fellaini could agitate for a move after the clause had expired, whereas he couldn't when it was in place. That just doesn't make any sense.

"You get into a debate when a club matches the valuation but that has never been the case". Martinez is quoted in the Daily Mail this morning. There is still a strong whiff of 'inviting the correct bid' in my opinion.

RM now saying on the Mail Website that the players heads have been turned and BK is annoyed by his mate's intrusive offer.

Time to make a stand and tell UTD to fuck off, just like the RS chairman has to Arsenal.

"They wont be sold to United at any price".

Now that would send a message.

Jim Potter, we are a selling club and have been since BK and the spoof boys took charge.

Mark Tanton, nothing wrong in inviting the right bid make no mistake if Arsenal offered the right money for Suarez he'd be sold just as Spurs are doing with Bale and very likely Utd will do with Rooney.

Barry can you name one club in this league apart from City and Chelsea who aren't a 'selling club'?

Paul Andrews, you're speaking as though we have accepted a bid for Fellaini. We have'nt yet have we? I think you may be proved right (not that I ever disagreed with you) but you're gloating is a tad premature.

I agree Barry, and I don't think we should tell them to "fuck off" at any cost actually. Martinez needs to build Everton in his own image, and that means selling - to any realist I think that's clear.

Spot on Mark Tanton (008). Roberto's comments today + the fact that WE went public with Utd's bid + the fact we haven't offered Baines a new contract, suggests we want this deal more than Utd do.
"Tell them to fuck off" sounds great and all, but make no mistake, Utd will always hold the cards when it comes to dealing with our inept board.
There's a reason they're one of the World's most successful clubs... Whilst our Chairman's a 'Theatre Impresario'

Liam Reilly - 016. Ignore the Mail's headline. In the video RM never says our players have had their heads turned, he says they've been professional.

He does say that the transfer window being open after the season starts can affect players but he was talking about all players in general.

This is the Mail trying to stir up the story. Dicks.

The one thing that strikes me about Bill K is his need to be loved and appreciated
Maybe, just maybe, the realisation of how we view Baines and what his loss would mean to the club and fans may cause his bollocks to, belatedly, drop

James Martin, Arsenal, Utd, Liverpool and Spurs.

Just because they get involved in player sales does not make them a selling club - there is a significant difference between them, the 2 you mention, and the rest.

Self evident really.

I think we all know what we really need, a billionaire with more money than sense!

Failing that were unfortunately up the creek.
Apparently only enough money to stagger along, an ageing team that will have to be replaced in next couple of years ( 4-5 players ) a ground that is dated, with a limited capacity.
Don't want to be a doomsayer but that's where we are, the only way we're going to consistently compete with the top 4 or 5 clubs is with a rich owner.
Lets hope its soon!

I'm looking forward to Moyes reaction next week when Chelsea put in their next bid for Rooney. A sharp taste of his own medicine.

What is that difference Barry? they have loads of money? I hadn't worked that oone out after all the years of watching football.

My idea of a 'selling' club would be a clubt hats sells its best players consistently and fails to reinvest the sales. Now which out of arsenal or ourselves do that? Arsenal have sold Van Persie, Fabregas, Henry Nasri Flamini, Song- how much of that have they reinvested?

Our only major sales upwards have been Rooney, Lescott, Arteta and Rodwell. Only the Arteta money went missing from that (in no ways am I trying to defend the board here).

In comparison to other teams we've kept hold of our top players like Jagielka Baines and Fellaini for a lot longer than say Spurs who have sold Carrick, Berbatov, Modric, and now Bale.

Liverpool have sold Torres, Mascherano, Alonso,Arbeloa Benayoun, Meireles and at some point in the near future Suarez.

Even Man U had to sell Ronaldo. if you want to say we have no money then fine everyone knows that. but I fail to see how are selling behaviour is different to that of clubs like Spurs, Arsenal and Liverpool. The way people go on they make it out as though we're the only selling club in the league. We're not. We're just the only set of fans with a paranoia about trading players.

Players come & go, it's no big deal.

Martinez has basically stated that its in the chairman's hands! Oh dear! Fetch the KY jelly and assume the position, we're about to be ...

Just posted this on another thread but it seems more relevant here.

Anybody seen this BBC article with quote attributed to Martinez?
"If someone matches the valuation then you have to make a decision but that's not been the case."

Its hardly hands off our players, are we trying to encourage further bids for Baines and Felliani?

Full article

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/23791167

If we have both players after this window shuts, I'll shall be contacting thingy McWhirter* at the Guinness Book of Records - "Do you have a 'World's most surprised-looking gob' section?"

* If he's still going that is (the one, obviously, that didn't get shot)

He also mentions on the official site that we are probably in for one more anyway. I expect on top of that we'd need replacements for anybody we sell.

I expect at £25-30 million they'd consider losing Fellaini and his wages.

Funnily enough, it's not like Everton have actually valued either player anyway.

Even at £40 million for Baines and Felllaini, it would gut our squad, we'd lose our two most potent weapons - the left-side and a nuisance present in midfield and each box.

James Marshall 040
Some of us, young man (© B Clough), have never got over the sale of Bally and the club took 14 years to recover from THAT "no big deal"

"Funnily enough, it's not like Everton have actually valued either player anyway"

Didn't we value Fellaini around the £23m mark with his clause? I think that was a pretty clear indication of how much we'd flog him for.

Eugene - it was Norris. McWhirter, not Chuck.

I love Jon's description of Fellaini as a 'nuisance'.

Phil - whatcha gonna do though eh? I mean players do come & go, it's part & parcel of the business of running a football club. Yeah we get attached to them & all that, but ultimately they're just pawns in the game....

I still wish Big Nev & Duncan played for us, and sometimes I miss Vinny Samways.

I'm more worried about the dreadful form of Jags and hope West Brom, without Lukaku, will give him the chance to get his act together.

Eugene, old Norris kicked the bucket in 2004

No, Tony Hibbert is a pawn, Big Vic is a pawn, Leighton Baines is not a pawn. He's more of a Knight. Fellaini? A Castle, I think - powerful but not that agile. Mirallas is an incisive Bishop. Your move, James...

Top clubs do trade players, however, they rarely sell one top player without buying a replacement who is potentially better or at least of the same quality.

When we sell a 'star' player it always leaves a hole in the squad and therefore severely disrupts us. Stevie Me for example has been at LFC for over a decade, what are the chances of that happening to young Barkley, we will be lucky if he is still at Goodison,come the start of next season.
That to me is the major difference between trading players and being a selling club.

A castle is more useful and important than a knight.

It is a shame, there could really be a power play this summer to get rid of Spurs for good. Spurs spend the Bale money before they have it, Real then back out of negotiations and sign Rooney instead. This leads for Bale to be signed at a much cheaper price for United, which will strengthen them and leave Spurs out of pocket by about 40-50 million. United could then sell Nani Anderson and put in a realistic bid for our 2. This then leaves United up by Fellaini Baines Bale and Spurs Hanging thier hopes on top 4 this season. If they fail then bye bye spurs.

If only football was like this....

Depends how you play the game, Alan.

In terms of playing style, I think Jags is a Castle, too. Young Ross played like a Queen last week. Er, I mean that in a good way!

it seems the media want this deal to happens more than the clubs do to me. I'm not sure they are going to even return with a new figure and I don't think Man U have the money to spend that we believe they do, their debt is huge and I think the men up top have said it's time to start chipping away at it.

Patrick have Arsenal bought anyone of the same quality as Van Persie? or Fabregas? Didn't United rpelace Ronaldo with a combination of Valencia and Michael Owen. Have Spurs replaced Modric? Have Liverpool replaced any of their star midfield that they sold?

We sold Lescott and got in Distin along with Heitinga and Bily (the last two have proved rubbish but it hardly disrupted the first 11). Rodwell's money went into Mirallas Pienaar and Oviedo - hardly a bad deal.

Who's to say we won't keep hold of Barkley. if you remember as well gerrard did want to go, even after they'd won the champs league and were guaranteed european football every season.It was only because the fans started making his life a misery that he didn't. Dortmund couldn't keep hold of their players despit emakign the champions league final. Our club is run badly in many ways but in terms of how we sell people we are not some sort of strange exception. If we stopped putting ourselves down first then manybe the media might stop doing it.

Not really Alan #062, castles can only move in straight lines and only as long as they're not impeded by their own men. A knight though can jump over it's own or the oponents men and has a choice of 2 of those L shaped moves to get it into different positions.

Not really Alan #062, castles can only move in straight lines and only as long as they're not impeded by their own men. A knight though can jump over it's own or the oponents men and has a choice of 2 of those L shaped moves to get it into different positions.

What's all this 'Castle' nonsense? He's a Rook.

Gavin (059) – "Eugene, old Norris kicked the bucket in 2004"

Odd pair him and the other feller, involved in some very iffy secretive political stuff if I remember rightly (and they were prepared to spend time with Roy Castle which makes them REALLY fucking weird)

James Marshall (#040)- "Players come & go, it's no big deal".

A wonderful insight, I feel I've learnt something – do you do other subjects?

Perhaps..

WWll - 'Some men having a fight, it happens'.

Moon Landings - "A guy finds a lump of rock, yawn, let's move on'.

Kennedy Assassination - "Man with nice teeth killed, get over it'.

By the way we didn't value Fellaini at around £23M, we (ie: Moyes) valued him (or wanted as the escape-clause figure) £30M.

The reason it ended up at £23M is because at £30M, the player wouldn't sign the deal.

The figure £23M (point whatever) million was not a valuation, it was simply what the player (and his agent/dad/whoever) was prepared to accept.

If we do end up selling Fellaini, it should not be for a carrot less than £30M – or if you prefer, 'the Moyes valuation'.

Typically damning and condescending as ever, Eugene.

Yawn.

Players do come & go - a comment that speaks for itself. I don't have to qualify everything in any more detail than I see fit just to appease you, Eugene. Grow up and stop with the constant baiting for crying out loud.

Your points were fair and logical, James - but supporting a particular football club ain't. I don't come to ToffeeWeb for fair and reasoned debate; I come to have my prejudices confirmed (and preferably shared). If there is some 'damning and condescending' stuff as a result, I'll live with it! Eugene certainly has some prima ballerina traits, but what the hell?

Eric - yes, that was my thinking. Knights are nifty duckers and divers. I think of Castles/Rooks as more like battering rams or canons.

As someone else has already said: The answer is for us to make a very public combined bid for Rooney & Van Persie, at the same price they are offering for our boys...let them know what it feels like...plus, would get all the tabloids focusing on United instead of us.

James Marshall 057

What am I going to do?
What all men do
Sulk

Aye, pawns as you say (still fucking hurts, though)

Fair enough, Brian - lets not get too far into it though, because it only fuels him with the attention he clearly didn't get as a child. I'm sure he just wasn't hugged enough by his Mummy.

No doubt he'll be back with another dig at my pathetic response. He can't help himself - the typical narcissist. Cue, some sort of Freud or Maslow related pop....

Phil - sulking is what made this club & country great. Never forget that. You're not alone.

James, as my kids would no doubt put it - lol !

They may not have replaced them like for like but that is more down to having a bad buying policy, not a lack of ambition or cash. Who are Arsenal linked with today James? Can they afford to strengthen their squad? I'm not going to continue going round in circles - suffice it to say that you think that Everton are being run correctly and I don't.

BTW nobody has made the perception of Everton as a small club as much as Kenwright and the board, what fans think about their club matters little to the media, they go on what they witness and Everton are not seen as a big club by many people nowadays.

Blackburn, Wolves, Sheffield Wednesday et al were all seen as big clubs in their day, but nobody would think that they are nowadays, we are on the slide to that sort of future at Everton - I don't like it in fact I detest it - but it is the truth.

There is also a chance that in twenty years time - Evertonians will look on the last 10 years as halcyon days - that to me is frightening and proves what a mess the board has made of managing the club.

Patrick you have a good point on who they are linked with, gone are the days when Everton would be linked with Di Maria or Benzema, I watched Benzema turn David Weir left and right until he fell over and scored a screamer against Rangers whilst he was playing for Lyon, was sat right behind the goal and even my Rangers mate had to admit that was utter class.

Steve #990 “Nobody said that he wouldn't go for less afterwards, they just said that it was ridiculous to think that United were waiting for it to expire before they bid, they were simply waiting for their preferred choices to decline them.”
Phil #993 “I can't recall a single person saying that Fellaini wouldn't be sold for below his release clause.”
Steve, as you’ve either not bothered reading the thread again, or just haven’t understood what was said in it and Phil’s memory is a bit suspect here’s some references for you both.

See (#378) “Patrick, your logic on Fellaini makes no sense...............Once that clause expires, we don't have to sell him at all. The price should go up, if anything.” In response to a post saying “ the nearer it gets to the start of the season, the lower the price they will have to pay.”
(#479) “ It is nonsense to suggest clubs are waiting for the clause to expire to make a lower bid.”
(#480) “After August 14th, Fellaini will cost more than £23M because we won't have to sell”
(#523) “Now that the clause is about to expire there seems to be an expectancy that this will trigger us selling him for less, I don’t get the logic of that at all.”
(#534) “I can’t see why the club would set a contractual valuation of £23M (or whatever it actually is) on a player and then sell him for less”
(#645) “Paul, no less than £23M, & hopefully not in this window at all.”
(#653) “if they bid less than the clause fee once it's expired the chances are it'll get kicked back”
(#774) “If Fellaini goes for less than his release clause then any sense of optimism or positivity about our club should evaporate immediately. It would be an absolute disaster and a shattering psychological blow to everyone involved with our club. There is no logic behind it whatsoever and only a complete doom-monger would even contemplate the idea.”
(#073) “the expiry date is for the clubs benefit so we aren't forced to sell at £23m with a limited time to find a replacement before the window closes so why on earth would we accept less after August the 15th?”
(#096) “doesn't make any sense for the club to go to the effort of putting an expiry date in to it's own detriment, Everton wouldn't have put one in so they could make less profit after August the 15th.”
(#111)” I am going to go out on a limb and say that IF Fellaini goes it will be at least for the £23m release clause”
(#128) “I am countering the the view that the club inserted the expiration date and will happily take less than £23m release figure after the date the clause expires. It makes no sense.”
(#216) “We will not sell the player for less after the clause expires”
(#220) “I think we'll get nearly £30 million for Fellaini”
(#227) Paul For maybe the third or forth (sic) time: We won't accept less than £23M”
(#240) “it does not change the fact that Everton can ask for more once the release clause has expired. As I keep saying that point really is beyond dispute.”
(#250)” Fellaini's minimum price is stipulated in the release clause, we will not sell him for less than that”
(#292) “How do the board or Bill Kenwright come out of the transfer window looking good if we sell one of our best players for less than we've already said he's worth?”
(#331) “There is simply no logic in the suggestion that any manager who might want Fellaini would knowingly delay bidding until Everton can say, "the price is £30M"”
(#332) “if a club is going to buy him, they will do it for the clause price before it runs out. If they haven't got it together by then for whatever reason (ie too long spent chasing Fabregas or Suarez), we can hold them to ransom,”
(#605) “Paul Andrews #371. Yes. £23M or no sale. I thought I'd made that pretty clear. If we sell him for less I will wail and gnash my teeth in a fully biblical way and will join the ranks of the doom mongers and nay-sayers I have for so long argued against. It will be my own personal final straw.”
(#754) “It doesn't make sense for us to sell him for less than the clause after it expires,”

All in response to my main point in #469
I think the correct way to look at Fellaini's clause is that if someone offers more than the set fee within the time period then the Club has to advise him of the interest and cannot stop him from leaving if he agrees terms.
After the set time period it is up to the Club if they want to sell him and for whatever fee they can get. They are not obliged to make any interest known to the player or his agent unless they agree terms with the club making the offer.
After the time period is up it would not make sense to offer more than the set fee as this could have been done prior, and cheaper, so teams would be looking to get him for a discount,

Baffling that people think his price would be anything close to the clause after it expired.

He's not actually worth £23m of anyone's money anyway.

James Marshall - "Players do come & go - a comment that speaks for itself. I don't have to qualify everything in any more detail than I see fit just to appease you, Eugene. Grow up and stop with the constant baiting for crying out loud"

Jesus what a sensitive soul you are, I pointed out, using what could only be described as gentle humour (because I know through experience that anything harsher would have you ONCE AGAIN shrieking "TROLL!!") that I thought a post of yours was stating the obvious.

'Constant baiting'?

Do me a fucking favour!

Why not (for once) rather than question me, look to the 'content' of your own posts.

Was my criticism REALLY 'out of order'?

You say - "Players do come & go - a comment that speaks for itself"

True - so (DUH!) if it speaks for itself....

I am more than entitled to point out that a post that simply says 'players come and go' is beyond stating the bleeding obvious and that you might as well post 'air is breathed' or 'cars have wheels'.

You add "I don't have to qualify everything in any more detail than I see fit"

Again true - but it is also true that I am entitled to comment on that lack of detail, so grow a pair of bollocks and stop whining.

He's worth £23million if Bales worth £100 million.

James, I read " "players come & go, it's no big deal" not as a desire to (just) state the obvious about players coming and going but to express an opinion (as one is entitled to do) that it's no big deal for you - something perhaps not obvious unless you stated it, as for others it is a big deal. Or is that all so obvious that I didn't need to state it?!

Eric you really are thick aren't you I said that people had said it was ridiculous to think that someone was waiting for the clause to expire before putting in a bid and the second quote you use to prove me wrong is

“ It is nonsense to suggest clubs are waiting for the clause to expire to make a lower bid.”

I mean really, when you are trying to prove someone wrong you don't use evidence that proves them right.

I think you need to rethink your point of view and prepare an argument based upon the realities of a minimum fee release clause, maybe you should start by researching what it actually means as you obviously didn't read the definition that I provided for you.

Phil Salmon 993,

"They could have bid £20 million anytime and got their man"
Remind me.Did they?

Steve, you said "“Nobody said that he wouldn't go for less afterwards"

“It is nonsense to suggest clubs are waiting for the clause to expire to make a lower bid.” and all those quotes show that a lot of people thought he wouldn't go for less afterwards.

And the reality is that nobody made a bid while the clause was effective, the only bid came after the clause expired and was for lower than the clause value.

So it really wasn't ridiculous to suggest that clubs were waiting for the clause to expire before making a lower bid, it was spot on.

Sam Hoare,

Pay attention.
Have a look at the subject of debate again

Eric

You certainly went to a lot of effort to piece together that post. Now if you could just apply a similar level of concentration as you read the rest of this one.

I think most people realised quite early on that nobody was going to meet Fellaini's release clause. The point was that should a team suddenly become desperate to sign him, during that clause they could have done so for £23M regardless of whether Everton wanted him to go. After that clause expired the ball was back in Everton's court. If somebody offered £23M, £26M, £28M, we had the power to say 'No'.

With regards to clubs waiting for the clause to expire before offering a lower bid. Why would they? With the clause in place or expired, it doesn't make a difference, the club could reject it either way.

You seem to see this £23M as some sort of bargaining chip in Everton's favour. It was the absolute opposite.

Phil "With regards to clubs waiting for the clause to expire before offering a lower bid. Why would they?"

So they could get him cheaper!!

If nobody values him at £23M they aren't going to offer more than that after the clause has expired are they!

Why not offer £18M when the clause was in place?

“I can't recall a single person saying that Fellaini wouldn't be sold for below his release clause.”

How's your memory now, Phil, do you recall any of those 22 references to Fellaini not being sold below the clause value?

I believe one of them may have been from you.

^that should be Phil, not Paul

Phil #155, refer to Paul #144

Eric

There is a difference between -

1. Believing that Fellaini would be sold for a fee below the release clause.

And

2. Believing that a club is deliberately waiting for the clause to expire before tabling a lower offer.

My own opinion at the time was that Fellaini probably wouldn't leave. No club would meet the clause and Everton wouldn't accept anything less.

It's this whole business of waiting for the clause to expire before tabling an opening, say £18M bid. It doesn't make any sense and the non-explanation you offered has done little to clear the matter up.

"My own opinion at the time was that Fellaini probably would not leave.
No club would meet the clause and Everton would not accept anything less"

Is that still your opinion?

No idea what will happen now, Paul. It depends how much pressure Moyes is under to buy and how much he wants him.

It's hard to see Man Utd coughing up enough for us to accept the bid.

What do you think?

Same as I have thought all along.
Moyes wasn't under enough pressure to buy at £23 million.
It would go against all logic if he paid more

OFM seems to becoming increasingly desperate now and has been linked with the likes of benzema, Ozil, shaw, Modric etc.... He'll buy the first players that become available. We only have to stay firm for a few more days but I still think Martinez would accept a decent offer for Fellaini.

Phil,

Just read your post again.

So when you said "No club would meet the clause and Everton would not accept anything less" no longer stands?
Have you changed your opinion?

If Fellaini goes, it will be for £23 million or over.

Yes it would Paul.

But say he misses out on all other targets there could be a large deadline day bid in a final attempt to get a new face through the door. I'm not saying there will be - but that's the scenario I have been arguing is possible all along.

Anyway, there you go, let's see what happens.

I've had enough of arguing with you guys to be honest. We obviously disagree and we're all too stubborn to let it drop. So apologies for my part in it.

#200

No I guess I haven't really.

I don't really understand why united don't go for Luke Shaw and Cabaye, with cheeky bid for Mata instead of Rooney. Both are cheaper, and better options given the style of the team and age of Evra vs Baines.

Never apologise if you believe you have a valid point Phil.

Eric, why couldn't united offer £18m before the clause expired?

They could.
They didn't.

Thankyou Paul, that was the point that most of us where trying to make. They didn't have to wait for the clause to expire to make a lower bid so it really is ridiculous to suggest that they did.

I wonder if James and Eugene have ever been sat next to each other at a match without knowing who the other was?

ER: ' Ffs, that human hatstand Jo has just missed another chance! In the words of the Thor the Norse God of thunder, fucking do one! '

JM: ' chances come and chances go.'

Situation deteriorates and stewards ask both to leave the stadium. Whereas on ToffeeWeb they can go hammer and tongs at each other all night! You gotta love ToffeeWeb!

Steve #284 (&Phil #155), because they didn't value him at that price.

Do you now agree that there were plenty of people who said that he wouldn't go for less after the clause expires?

And that those who said less would be offered after the clause expired have been proven correct?

Your point, Eric, was that they were waiting for the clause to expire before offering a lower amount.

At least stick to your argument.

Can we lock this thread or something, because I literally can't stop myself from commenting.

Try harder Phil.
Your'e first sentence in post above does you no favours.
Reason? Because that is precisely what happened.

Why wasn't the bid tabled on the 1st of August, immediately after the clause had expired then? Surely they would want the lad with their team ASAP.

Phil #339 "Your point, Eric, was that they were waiting for the clause to expire before offering a lower amount."

So I was correct then.

Phil,

It's gone mate.
What Eric and I said would happen happened.
Let it go now

Interesting that you can't answer my question there.

Business happens as the transfer window draws to a close and clubs miss out on primary targets. Fellaini's release clause has nothing to do with it.

So please, Paul, put that smugness on ice.

Phil - let it go. I am with you. I don't understand why they don't understand how the release clause works. But let it go, these particular horses will not drink the water.

Eric at least read the posts that people write before you post. I asked you a direct question at #284 which you have failed to answer.

I love the way it has gone from him being sold for less than the amount of the release clause to offers being made. Had United wanted to buy him during the period they would have still offered £18m, the fact is that at that time they wanted Fabregas so were not even thinking about Fellaini. You are trying to change the past to win an argument.

Steve, the window is still open, he can still be sold and the only offer so far is below your mythical £18m.

David,#355, do you disagree that an offer has been made below the value of the release clause?

Eric start responding to what people say instead of what you want him to say. I know the window is still open, and he hasn't been sold for less than the release clause has he. So what are you gloating about, people could have offered lass than the release fee at any time since the window opened which is what everyone other than you was saying. You have got it into your head that we all said that nobody would offer less after the clause expired, we didn't, we said we'd be angry if he was sold for less after the clause expired. There is a huge difference.

Now will you answer any of the questions that you have been asked, or would it not fit in with your agenda. If Fellaini is sold for less than the release fee then come on here and tell us all how great you are. Because at the moment all you are doing is reading half of what people say and then making up the rest.

Even if Fellaini is sold tomorrow for £18M, Eric and Paul will still be wrong.

Their argument was that Fellaini would sell for a lower value BECAUSE the release clause had expired. As if this clause marked some watershed moment whereby clubs could get their man for a cheaper price.

In reality, it's nothing like that. Man Utd have failed to land their primary transfer target and have now turned to Fellaini.

Back to the question neither of you can answer...

If the end of the release clause was what Man Utd were waiting for, then why didn't they bid the day after it expired?

It's interesting how me and Steve Pugh answer every question we are asked, whereas you just bounce back another question.

Steve#437 "Eric start responding to what people say instead of what you want him to say"

But Steve I responded to your “Nobody said that he wouldn't go for less afterwards" and Phil's "“I can't recall a single person saying that Fellaini wouldn't be sold for below his release clause.”

Are you saying that's what I wanted you to say? Not what you really said?

"You have got it into your head that we all said that nobody would offer less after the clause expired, we didn't" See my post #091 which references many posts that state we would get more after the clause expired (and by inference, not less).

Phil "Their argument was that Fellaini would sell for a lower value BECAUSE the release clause had expired."

No, we said that once the clause has expired lower bids would come in for him. Do you disagree that that has happened? And if he is sold for one of those lower bids would you disagree that it has happened after the clause has expired?

But to answer your question "If the end of the release clause was what Man Utd were waiting for, then why didn't they bid the day after it expired?"

You'll have to ask Mr. Moyes that, how would I know?

Ooops there I go answering a question with a question again.

Eric please note this important sentence in your answer.

"We would get more after the clause expired"

Note the word get. Not be offered GET. So until he is sold you have nothing to argue.

Phil - "Their argument was that Fellaini would sell for a lower value BECAUSE the release clause had expired."

Eric - "No, we said that once the clause has expired lower bids would come in for him."

--------------

Eric, either they were waiting for the release clause or they weren't. It seems you don't even know which way you're arguing now.

Here's a reminder of some previous post from you (From the Transfer Spin Again article):

#474 Ernie, it's relevant because it seems that nobody reckons Fellaini is worth £23m and they're waiting until it's no longer effective to put in a lower offer.
If there wasn't a clause we could have had an offer and a sale by now.

#518 Now as a manager that wants to buy him what would you do? Offer £23M and £1 now, or wait and offer £15 to a club that you know has financial problems after the expiry period of the clause?

#556 The release clause is there for the benefit of the club so they can guarantee he won't go cheaply against their will. Maybe nobody has made a bid because they don't beleive he's worth the value of the clause and they're waiting for the set period to expire to put in a lower bid?

You seem to see this release clause expiry as a landmark that allows the player to go for much cheaper than Everton would like. So now can you please tell me why 'ROBERTO MARTINEZ CELEBRATES RELEASE CLAUSE EXPIRING' - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/23710170

Martinez - "As you can imagine, for a manager that gives you a real sense of celebration when that day arrives."

But hey Eric, maybe me, Steve Pugh, Mike Allison, Mike Green, (many more) and ROBERTO SODDING MARTINEZ don't know what we're talking about.

" ROBERTO SODDING MARTINEZ "

Is that Roberto's middle name Phil? I didn't know that!

David W Moyes. Wonder what that stands for eh?

Steve, I understand that you won't admit that a few who were ridiculed on here were right in saying less would be offered after the clause expired and you have been proven wrong.

So you don't have to desperately keep clutching at straws to try to prove a point you lost long ago.

Phil Salmon,349

Put that smugness on ice.

A twist of bitter lemon with that sir?

For crying out loud Eric, you weren't ridiculed for saying we would be offered less. You were ridiculed for not understanding the minimum release clause and for saying that clubs were waiting for the clause to expire before they offered less.

If you re read your own list of evidence they are virtually all commenting on what Fellaini will sell for. That is not the same as what people offer for him, can you understand that.

I haven't lost the point, just because you can't comprehend what everyone else is telling you doesn't mean that you are right.

Phil #550, where in that article does Martinez say he's celebrating because now he can ask for more money for Fellaini?

Or that he won't sell him?

And with regard to my posts you reference, was I right? Did the bids that come in for him come in only after the clause expired? and were they lower than the value set?

Or were you et al right?

What actually happened?

Steve #567 "If you re read your own list of evidence they are virtually all commenting on what Fellaini will sell for. That is not the same as what people offer for him, can you understand that."

Did you really say that Steve? Do you think that we would sell a player for a figure that was not offered?

The evidence I posted was to counter your statement "“Nobody said that he wouldn't go for less afterwards" and shows that many people did say he wouldn't go for less afterwards. By saying he will go for more that is explicitly stating he won't go for less!

"You were ridiculed for not understanding the minimum release clause and for saying that clubs were waiting for the clause to expire before they offered less."

And what actually happened Steve? Did a club wait until the release clause expired before they offered less for him or didn't they?

I'll answer 576 for Eric. Let's have a look shall we

#474 shows that you have no idea what the minimum release clause is, a minimum release clause does not stop a player being sold for less than the amount, it just means that they have to offer the player the chance to meet with the buying club if the amount is met.

#518 any sensible manager would bid low whilst the clause is in place knowing that the maximum they would have to bid is the amount stated in the clause. Once the clause has expired the selling club could refuse to sell entirely.

#556 once again shows your misunderstanding of the minimum fee release clause. The clause states an amount at which the selling club must allow the player to talk to the buying club and if he agrees terms then the sale must go through. It is the minimum fee at which the selling club must release the player, hence minimum release fee. If the selling club wishes they can sell him for less, but they can't sell him for more. How is that of benefit to the club? Once the clause has expired the selling club can sell him for less or they can sell him for more, or they can not sell him at all regardless of what they are offered.

Sorry if I trod on your toes there Phil, I just wanted to show Eric how to answer a question.

Hahaha. So now our manager doesn't understand the release clause either. Brilliant.

He's celebrating because he knows he is back in charge of any deal put forward for Fellaini. He no longer risks losing a player without his say so.

Currently, Eric, I'm actually right. I've said all along that I doubted any club would reach our valuation of the player, so he'll remain in an Everton shirt.

You weren't right. You said that clubs were waiting for the clause to expire. They were not, they were merely pursuing other more desirable transfer targets first.

Eric #578, if I offer you a tenner for your house you won't sell it to me, but that is what I offered. We haven't sold Fellaini yet, we have had offers. The people you quote are talking about an amount that we would sell him at. Would it be clearer if I use the word unaccepted before the word offer so that you can understand. One day we will sell Fellaini when the time and the offer is right, but we won't necessarily sell him just because there is an offer.

You seem to think that offers and sales are the same, they are not.

And no Man Utd didn't wait for the clause to expire, they waited until their preffered choices had fallen through, as I have said before. You are just choosing to ignore this fact to back up your rather spurious argument.

Watch the smug-o-meter Phil, in case Paul picks you up on it again.

No need Ross.
Give someone enough rope............

Steve #581 you have said excatly what I have said in the Transfer Spin thread except:

#518 you say "any sensible manager would bid low whilst the clause is in place knowing that the maximum they would have to bid is the amount stated in the clause. Once the clause has expired the selling club could refuse to sell entirely"

I disagree, any sensible manager would knowthat a lowball figure would be koncked back immediately while the clause is in place as the club have no obligation to sell the player for a lower valuation, or even tell him about it. A sensible manager would wait until the clause has expired and make it known that a bid has been made to unsettle the player.

#566 It is the minimum fee at which the selling club must release the player, hence minimum release fee. If the selling club wishes they can sell him for less, but they can't sell him for more.

Again I disagree, the club can sell him for any price that is offered above the minimum fee.

Phil#583 "You said that clubs were waiting for the clause to expire. They were not, they were merely pursuing other more desirable transfer targets first"

You have absolute proof of that do you? Because I have absolute proof that a club waited unti after the transfer window to make a bid lower than the clause value as I said they would.

Phil,
If Fellaini is sold in this window,do you think the manager will be given the full £23 million to spend?
Or indeed more if the fee goes up.

Steve #584,"The people you quote are talking about an amount that we would sell him at."

and they were all ABOVE the value of the clause whereas your argument was that "Nobody said that he wouldn't go for less afterwards"

I just prvided prrof that many people DID say he would not go for less by explicitly saying he would go for more and ridiculing the idea that he would go for less.

Steve #584 "Eric #578, if I offer you a tenner for your house you won't sell it to me, but that is what I offered. We haven't sold Fellaini yet, we have had offers."

If I had my house on the market for 100 Quid and said nobody would make an offer for less than that after 31 July and you offered me a tenner I would be wong.

If you said that nobody would offer less for Fellaini than stated in his clause after 31 July then you were wrong.

Eric

I think this sentence shows just how little you understand the clause.

"Again I disagree, the club can sell him for any price that is offered above the minimum fee. "

Why on earth would a club offer more when the clause is in place?

Re #592

Yeah I have proof that Man Utd pursued Fabregas before bidding for Fellaini. www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/manchester-united/10213280/Manchester-United-ready-to-make-third-bid-of-35-million-for-Barcelonas-Cesc-Fabregas.html

Then there's the persuit of Thiago http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/transfers/manchester-united-make-26m-fabregas-bid-after-missing-out-on-thiago-8708423.html

So, lets see this proof that Man Utd's bid was strategically made after Fellaini's release clause had expired....

Eric, do you recognise this list? You should it is a list that you claim backs up your argument that everyone said that there would be no low offers after the clause expired.

See (#378) “Patrick, your logic on Fellaini makes no sense...............Once that clause expires, we don't have to sell him at all. The price should go up, if anything.” In response to a post saying “ the nearer it gets to the start of the season, the lower the price they will have to pay.”

You see this post talks about selling, nothing about the offers that other clubs will make.

(#479) “ It is nonsense to suggest clubs are waiting for the clause to expire to make a lower bid.”

This doesn't say that clubs won't make offers, just that they could make offers during the period of the clause.

(#480) “After August 14th, Fellaini will cost more than £23M because we won't have to sell”

Again nothing about offers just about whether or not we need to sell.

(#523) “Now that the clause is about to expire there seems to be an expectancy that this will trigger us selling him for less, I don’t get the logic of that at all.”

No mention of offers, just about us not selling him for less.

(#534) “I can’t see why the club would set a contractual valuation of £23M (or whatever it actually is) on a player and then sell him for less”

same again

(#645) “Paul, no less than £23M, & hopefully not in this window at all.”

and again, no mention of low offers just about us not selling

(#653) “if they bid less than the clause fee once it's expired the chances are it'll get kicked back”

This one actually suggests there might be lower offers and that they will be rejected, as has happened

(#774) “If Fellaini goes for less than his release clause then any sense of optimism or positivity about our club should evaporate immediately. It would be an absolute disaster and a shattering psychological blow to everyone involved with our club. There is no logic behind it whatsoever and only a complete doom-monger would even contemplate the idea.”

Again no talk of other peoples offers just talk of what would happen if he was sold for less than the clause

(#073) “the expiry date is for the clubs benefit so we aren't forced to sell at £23m with a limited time to find a replacement before the window closes so why on earth would we accept less after August the 15th?”

definitely nothing about offers here

(#096) “doesn't make any sense for the club to go to the effort of putting an expiry date in to it's own detriment, Everton wouldn't have put one in so they could make less profit after August the 15th.”

or here

(#111)” I am going to go out on a limb and say that IF Fellaini goes it will be at least for the £23m release clause”

talk about what he will sell for but not that there won't be lower offers

(#128) “I am countering the the view that the club inserted the expiration date and will happily take less than £23m release figure after the date the clause expires. It makes no sense.”

again this is about the selling price

(#216) “We will not sell the player for less after the clause expires”

Its that word sell again

(#220) “I think we'll get nearly £30 million for Fellaini”

selling price again, nothing about there not being lower offers

(#227) Paul For maybe the third or forth (sic) time: We won't accept less than £23M”

and again

(#240) “it does not change the fact that Everton can ask for more once the release clause has expired. As I keep saying that point really is beyond dispute.”

and again

(#250)” Fellaini's minimum price is stipulated in the release clause, we will not sell him for less than that”

and again

(#292) “How do the board or Bill Kenwright come out of the transfer window looking good if we sell one of our best players for less than we've already said he's worth?”

Sell again,

(#331) “There is simply no logic in the suggestion that any manager who might want Fellaini would knowingly delay bidding until Everton can say, "the price is £30M"”

again talk of a selling price.

(#332) “if a club is going to buy him, they will do it for the clause price before it runs out. If they haven't got it together by then for whatever reason (ie too long spent chasing Fabregas or Suarez), we can hold them to ransom,”

Do you see a pattern emerging none of these people have said that there won't be low offers, just that we won't sell him at those prices.

(#605) “Paul Andrews #371. Yes. £23M or no sale. I thought I'd made that pretty clear. If we sell him for less I will wail and gnash my teeth in a fully biblical way and will join the ranks of the doom mongers and nay-sayers I have for so long argued against. It will be my own personal final straw.”

Pretty clear that this is about the price we sell him at, not what people offer.

(#754) “It doesn't make sense for us to sell him for less than the clause after it expires,”

and again.

So tell me which of these posts supports your claim that people said there would be no lower offers after the clause expires?

You then provide the evidence to support your lack of understanding of the release clause

"I think the correct way to look at Fellaini's clause is that if someone offers more than the set fee within the time period then the Club has to advise him of the interest and cannot stop him from leaving if he agrees terms.
After the set time period it is up to the Club if they want to sell him and for whatever fee they can get. They are not obliged to make any interest known to the player or his agent unless they agree terms with the club making the offer.
After the time period is up it would not make sense to offer more than the set fee as this could have been done prior, and cheaper, so teams would be looking to get him for a discount,"

Why would a buying club offer more than the release fee when the clause is active as the selling club has to accept the amount in the clause. Offering £23m has exactly the same chance of being accepted as £33m.

The clause fee is the maximum amount any buying club would have to pay for that player. There is no mimimum fee that they would have to pay, any figure less than the clause is open to discussion between the two clubs if the selling club wants to sell, exactly as if there was no clause.

As I am sure you are aware Messi has a 215 million Euro release clause, it has no expiry date. Do you think that he cannot be sold for less than 215 million Euros? Do you think that nobody can make an offer of less than 215 million Euros? Do you think that somebody would offer more than 215 million Euros?

It smells of desperation really doesn't it Phil?

We'll go for Cesc, oh Christ we've failed with that, Ok, try Thiago, damn it he won't come either, right, if in doubt try Everton and Fellaini, oh sugar we've lost out again.

Who next? Modric, Ozil?

Moyes is panicking.

Phil #602, I'm afraif it's you that misunderstands my friend
"Why on earth would a club offer more when the clause is in place?"

Well say one club bids 23.5 mill and another bids 25 mill.

According to you "If the selling club wishes they can sell him for less, but they can't sell him for more."

So we wouldn't be able to accept the 25 mill bid?

Phil, you don't have proof that Man U only turned to Fellaini after they failed with other targets, they could have just put him on the back burner knowing they didn't value him at the release valuation and decided to wait for it to expire to put in their lower bid.

And putting in a lower bid after the release clause expire I'm sure you won't acknowledge, even though that's what actiually happened.

Eric, 599

If you said that nobody would offer less for Fellaini than stated in his clause after 31 July then you were wrong.

But I didn't I said I would be angry if he was sold for less than the amount stated in his clause. This is what you are quite spectacularly failing to comprehend. We are concerned about his selling price not what people offer.

Selling Price - ie the price he is actually sold for and until he is sold we don't know what it will be. If it makes you happy if he is sold for less than the clause I will say that you were right all along. Offers are meaningless until they are accepted.

And try and understand the minimum release fee, I am running out of ways to explain it.

Eric -

"Well say one club bids 23.5 mill and another bids 25 mill.

According to you "If the selling club wishes they can sell him for less, but they can't sell him for more."

So we wouldn't be able to accept the 25 mill bid?"

--------------

What?! Why would a club offer us £25M when the release clause is £23.5M?

We HAVE TO accept £23.5M regardless of how many clubs bid for him.

Why am I even arguing with someone who cannot grasp this very simple concept?

(You don't need to answer that one)

Clutching at straws there Steve with offers vs selling.

Read the context that the posts were made in.

"Why would a buying club offer more than the release fee when the clause is active as the selling club has to accept the amount in the clause. Offering £23m has exactly the same chance of being accepted as £33m"

Don't ask me Steve, I never said they would, I said the opposite remember?.

Steve "The clause fee is the maximum amount any buying club would have to pay for that player. There is no mimimum fee that they would have to pay"

Phil "It is the minimum fee at which the selling club must release the player, hence minimum release fee. If the selling club wishes they can sell him for less, but they can't sell him for more."

You guys are confusing me now, I don't know which one is more wrong, just that you both are.

Steve Pugh 603,

Fuck me,that is some post.
You need to get yourself a bird

Steve #609 "But I didn't" but the other that you were quoting as agreeing with you were.

"And try and understand the minimum release fee, I am running out of ways to explain it."

But Steve you said "The clause fee is the maximum amount any buying club would have to pay for that player. There is no mimimum fee that they would have to pay"

Do I really need to comment on that?

What did Paul say about rope again?

Hey Paul, I forgot to ask, what did you make of your mate Eric's post on the Transfer Spin thread?

#144 "there are special dispensations for those who are travelling or are engaged in sports. I don't ever remember an issue with a footy match having to be stopped so Muslim players could pray?
And I wonder if they are observing the other Ramadan restrictions of no sex? Not even a wank?"

Eric

Steve is right. There is no minimum fee that a club has to bid during the clause. A club can offer £10M if they want.

The 'minimum' refers to the minimum amount the club will receive should they not consent to a sale. If that minimum fee is met then the club's hand is forced.

Clearly no club would offer over that amount. Why would you bid £25M when you are guaranteed to have a £23.5M bid accepted?

Phil #615 "What?! Why would a club offer us £25M when the release clause is £23.5M?"

I explained that to you already but it seems you have recall problems again so I'll try again.

One club bids the clause value of 23.5 mill but another club wants him more and so offers more. It's called a bidding war, or gazumping if you're buying a house. Are you saying that we should knock back the higher fee? What if Fellaini doesn't want to go to the club offering 23.5 mill? We should force him to? or force the club willing to pay 25 mill to pay us less?

"the possible scenario is that a club is desperate for a CM after the 15th August. That could be because they lost their own CM and need to replace him. Under that situation, we could get more than the £23M" Do you remember who said that in the Transfer Spin thread Phil? Post #322 if you want total recall.

Or what about "All of a sudden a £25M dishwasher you spotted in the sales is looking like quite an attractive option. Alright, you missed the £23M offer, but you didn't need the dishwasher then, did you." when you were arguing we could get more than the release clause for him.

What did Paul say about rope again?

Phil #625 "Steve is right. There is no minimum fee that a club has to bid during the clause"

But Steve said ""The clause fee is the maximum amount any buying club would have to pay for that player. There is no mimimum fee that they would have to pay"

Phil #622, can you point out anything factually incorrect in my post you quote? Ask any of the Muslims you know about the rules of Ramadan.

Whereas the post Paul pulled you for in the Transfer Spin thread IS factually incorrect.

Oh Eric, this is getting ridiculous.

While the clause is in place we can only ever receive £23.5M. There is no possibility of us getting any more money. If Man Utd offered that amount, it would be accepted. Chelsea wouldn't have to gazump them if they chose to get involved. They would just offer the same £23.5M and it too would be accepted.

You quote me above where I am clearly talking about after the clause has expired. At which point we can reject £23.5M or any other amount.

Its the player who wants a release clause in his contract, this because if his value increases while hes at the club in this case Everton, other clubs only need to bid the release clause amount to get him.
Say Fellaini had a brilliant season and was valued at £40m, Utd get him for £23m and a bargain.
Its to stop Everton valueing him at a ridiculous price to stop him leaving.
If other clubs value him less than the release clause, their obviously not going to bid £23m.
That's whats happened, Utd didn't rate him worth £23m so they have bid £18m.

And now Phil has lost the plot completely and is descending into dragging up posts on religion I'll retire to bed

Phil #625 "Steve is right. There is no minimum fee that a club has to bid during the clause"
But Steve said ""The clause fee is the maximum amount any buying club would have to pay for that player. There is no mimimum fee that they would have to pay"

Yes, Steve last sentence is nearly identical to mine. We agree on that. What's your point?

No Eric, on the religion front I wasn't having a go at you in the slightest. I just know that Paul thought your comment was out of order.

I found it funny to be honest.

Eric, Phil, Steve - can you run that past me again?

Don't even joke about it Brent!!!

I keep coming back to read it even though its doing my head in.

Really entertaining, Jamie. I wonder if we could have a Live Forum opened on it while it's going on (or going off). We could all comment from the sidelines on relative performances.

Quick summary, Brent: ∞

Phil Sammon 622
" What did you think of your mate Eric's post......."

I had you down for a fair few character failures.
Immaturity was not one of them.

Eric 608, why would a buying club offer £25m when the selling club has ot accept £23m. In your example the selling club has no say in which of the two clubs the player would go to. Therefore would it not be logical to offer £23m, which also has to be accepted under the terms of the clause, and use the left over £2m to sweeten the deal offered to the player.

As a buyer you have nothing to gain by offering over the amount stated in the clause. The clause figure is the amount at which the selling club must allow the player to discuss terms and, if he chooses to leave, the amount at which he will be sold. Why would you choose to give the selling club one penny more than you have to?

Hence the stupidity of waiting until the clause has expired before making your opening bid.

Tommy, thanks. That's crisp and concise. Cogently argued.

Yeah Brent. That Myles is having a nightmare. Get him off!!

Jamie, to be fair he hasn't been given enough time "on the field" this season. Perhaps we could loan him out.

I thought Steve in #603 held onto it too long. Get rid sooner, lad.

Loan him out to Bluekipper for a month. Ha ha.

Paul

Add it to the list then. It sounds like you're keeping quite a little diary about me. I'm flattered but spoken for.

So, did you like Eric's post?

Come on Paul, your principles don't disappear just because he's siding with you in this release clause debate do they?

Bluekipper did put in a bid but it was derisory and insulting - and less than the release clause.

Brent, if only Bluekipper had waited for that pesky release clause to expire . . .

To be fair, unless someone activates his 20 million release clause by bidding 40 million below the said asking price minus his true value, I fear Myles won't be going anywhere.

But, Tommy, why would they? Surely we'd just reject the bid then.

I'm afraid Steve has gone a bit quiet. He tends to flag at this point in the game. I reckon he's past it, though I've always been an admirer.

Eric, 620, obviously you do.

Your whole argument has been that clubs will wait until after the clause has expired before they would put in a low bid. Why would they wait when there is no restriction on the minimum bid whilst the clause is active?

Any bid under the clause amount the selling club has a choice of whether or not they accept it. Once the clause amount has been reached they have to accept. If another club comes in with an even higher bid they have to accept that to, but they can't then reject the first offer that activated the clause. It is upto the player to decide where he goes, so the club that bid the higher amount has not benefited from their higher offer they just have less money to offer the player.

And despite the fact that I have proved otherwise on every single comment that you quoted to show all these people were talking about offers you still maintain that you are right and the evidence is wrong.

Paul 618, married with three kids mate, why do you think I retreat onto here so often.

You underestimated him Brent!!

Brent, I'm Back (imagine weird vocal effects)

Damn, Dan! He was shamming. Got his second wind, maybe. But that was a weak shot.

not if he is negotiating his own sale, Brent . . .

Steve! Are those weird vocal effects from you or the crowd?

Phil Sammon 657,

Talk to the hand coz the face ain't listening...(fingers in ears) lah lah lah lahlah lah

Steve and Phil Sammon, you've got ten minutes to finish this game off, or we are bringing on Nick Entwistle and Doddy for the last 15. It's all in your hands...

Yes, Tommy, but do you have any REAL evidence of this?

Dab, fucking typical of you. Leaving it so late to bring on the subs. Dour and defensive.

* Dan!

I reckon this is going to end in another effing draw. How many times have we seen that on TW?!

damn right I do, Brent: "Why didn't it happen already."
That irrefutable "evidence" I call: "the slimmed down syllogism".

*unconvincingly tries to hide his ginger hair*

Go to arbitration, either that or your trying to break the record for the longest argument!

Yer cannae sub me boss, I got a picture of your missus and that donkey, ye woulnae like the papers to hold of that now would ye....

Tommy - a very fit syllogism. Stoical, at that.

*get hold of that

Sub me?!?!

What about Eric Osman? He's all over the place out here!

Steve, get home and report for extra training after tomorrow's game. All three of you. Don't do it with the picture - have ye no feelins for the donkey?

Actually, Brent, speaking of Stoics, I reckon Aurelius up front for us with Chrysippus and Cleanthes on the wings . . . and if we lose, it's no big deal . . .

Come on, Phil. It's a team game. No slagging off your team mates. (You're all shite, BTW)!

Tommy, you're a great scout, lad. I ain't seen these geezers yet. Must get to Athens more often.

I guess Eric really has gone to bed.....

Thought I'd pop onto TW and see how things are with match tomorrow.

Have looked at this thread and think I must be having a weird dream. I am dreaming that some pompous idiots with heads up their own arses have stretched out this thread to 310 posts.

I have heard more interesting politicians

OK, Eric, Steve, Phil. Good game, actually, lads. Entertaining. Attacking. Positive. We just had to gee you up a bit - it's called motivation. Now go and get that bath. See yous all at GP tomorrow.

Is that the whistle?

Thank god for that.

Oh, and fuck off Ged.

The dandelion and burdock is kicking in

I think we should wait and see if Bale goes for £85m. If he does EPL players value will increase

I wouldn't be surprised if Moyes ends up with no-one. What an Evertonian transfer window that would be - a blast from the past.