I believe Stoke are the only club from the original 12 to have never won either the League or Cup. Apart from Accrington, of course, who suffered such a rapid demise within a few years of the Football League forming.

What a fantastic series, John Mac. Thank you.

I was talking to someone about your series today today and comparing the raw simplicity of the original 12 story to the outrageous transfer offer for Mbappe from Saudi.

It just doesn't seem right. The beautiful game has certainly become a beast.

Another great chapter in the history of the proper game, Sir John.

Great read, thank you.

Unfortunately, this history will never make its way to the big screen. The only thing that came close was that excellent showing by Sam Hoare.

Hi Dennis [1] you are correct in stating that Stoke have never won either the League Championship or the FA Cup; they did however win the League Cup in 1972, beating Chelsea 2-1 at Wembley.

Hi John [2] I posted to Danny O'Neill on one of the threads, saying more or less what you have expressed.

Hi Jay [3], thank you for your kind words, ever since I was a youngster, I have always been interested in football history. I used to stay up on a Saturday night waiting for my granddad, and six uncles to come home from the pub, and I would listen to them discussing players and clubs from the turn of the century, up to the late forties.

I'm glad this fantastic history lesson has finally been given the promotion it deserves, John Mc!

Aye, John Snr #4 – I didn't mention it as we all know it's the "Mickey Mouse" Cup, and will remain so until we finally win it, no doubt!

This is absolutely brilliant. Thanks so much, John Mc.

We should have an original 12 cup every year. Sky would hate it. As would the RS. Remind them why they have that chip on their shoulder lol

Hi Tony [5],

I initially thought that it would be more popular on the 'recent article' thread, but it appears that only a handful on ToffeeWeb consider it to be worth the bother. I intend to continue posting similar subjects, because the 'If you know your history' chant, might play a part in a sudden surge of interest.

Hi John,

History – fans and clubs without it say it's irrelevant, whilst those with it believe it is the foundation of success.

Indeed, what is a successful club? A title or a cup? Great players or teams? The fans and their sense of belonging? Memories that warm us, tales that inspire us, bonds that unite us, a clan to be feared, a club with passion and pride – not anger, arrogance or disdain.

History is not just a bunch of facts, it is the lifeblood of the game, scarred or bitter memories interlaced with joy. It makes us the characters we are, our laughter our tears.

ToffeeWeb is our chosen vehicle, our history told by an able wordsmith like you or by the anguish of youth, desperate for their own memories to make them smile in years to come. It's the history that binds us.

Hi Dennis [6],

It was Liverpool fans who christened it the 'Mickey Mouse Cup' when we played Aston Villa in 1977. The following season, it was a trophy worth winning, until Nottingham Forest beat them at Old Trafford, and it reverted to the 'Mickey Mouse Cup' once more.

Hi Christine [9], I think that you have given me praise that I don't deserve. My posts are the result of my reference books. I do possess some memories, and I have a little football knowledge, but I don't consider it exceptional.

Thank you, John, for a great look back to the beginnings of the National Game and how the clubs of the "Original 12" were formed and grew.

Brilliant, to think back to the formation of the "Working Man's Game." Works teams, Church Teams, Athletic Clubs, Boy's Clubs; and most of these clubs were formed when there was very little in their lives but work (if they were lucky) Church and Boys Club, Athletic Clubs and maybe Pub teams.

By the way, just as a point of interest, there's a Throstle's Nest pub, still going on Scotland Road!

Nick (7) That's a great idea!

Cheers John and thanks for taking the time to post these historical gems. I really enjoyed them. Football is all about making history and great memories. Thanks again.

Thanks, John, for this whole series.

It's a chastening thought that, when I saw my first games of professional football in 1953-54, I was closer to 1888 than to the present day.

Hi John, another great piece, thank you.

It's worth remembering that thousands look at this site every day without ever logging in. I reckon your work has been enjoyed by many people you don't know.

John, I think you do protest too much! History are stories passed on, written or spoken, without the spreading we would never know..so thank you!

Hi Jim [12],

I'm afraid that the game can no longer be classed as the "working-man's game", TV.and the formation of the Premier League put an end to that.

I'm not suggesting that professionals such as clergymen, solicitors etc, didn't attend games, but I would hazard a guess that they were few and far between.

Having said that, I attended a Roman Catholic school, All Saints Oakfield, a few minutes from Liverpool's ground, and one or two priests could be spotted on the Kop.

Hi Jack [13], Thanks for your kind words, and I agree that football provides both good and bad memories, and I'm really glad that I learned quite early in my 'footballing life' that for "Every winner, there's a loser".

Hi Rick [15], If you have read from Part 1 to Part 4, you deserve a medal. You may recall that sometime ago, I mentioned that my Uncle Phil was a friend of Nel, and that my Auntie Nora taught Nel to dance at 'Peppers Dance Hall' on the corner of Aubrey Street and Everton Road.

Hi Andy [16] thanks for your kind words, I wonder if I could expect royalty's, as a result of the fact that thousands read my articles, if so it won't cost you a penny at the next get-together.

Hi Christine [17] I think that you have 'Sussed' me, you are right when you say "History is passed on, either by the written word or by voice, the important part is that it's passed on to younger generations.

J.Mac Sr - Catholic priests on the terraces at Anfield?... the Devil's own stomping ground??

I can only assume they'd been banned from our very own Boys Pen.

Hi Duncan [19],

I have no doubt that the Clergy were represented at Goodison at that time, but because I was restricted to the 'Boys Pen', I wasn't aware of it.

Hi John. When I started going to Goodison, in the late 1950s, priests were quite a common sight in Gwladys Street.

I wonder if the priests you spotted on the Kop knew the founder of the RS was a Grand Master of the Orange Lodge? lol.

Frank Soo, of Stoke, was a local lad from West Derby, who went to the village school albeit 30-odd years before me. Stoke signed him from Prescot Cables.

Hi Bill [21] I have a couple of books, "Football League Players Records 1888-1939", and "Premier League and Football League Players Records, 1946-1998".
It reads, Soo, Hong Ying [Frank] born, Buxton 08/03/1914, died 199,

Caps England, [war time] 9.
West Derby Boys Club,
Prescot Cables.
1933-1939 Stoke City, 176 appearances 6 goals.
1945 Leicester City, 0 appearances.
1946-1947 Luton Town, 71 appearances 4 goals.
Chelmsford City, 0 appearances.

I thought that this thread had run its course but, thanks to you, it might be given a lease of life.

Hi John,

With going to the same school I knew all about Frank Soo at an early age but, apart from that, he never seems to get a mention. I think his family had a Chinese laundry in West Derby village.

Lots of information on this link including the fact he guested for Everton during the war years, which I didn't know.

Frank Soo Foundation

https://www.thefranksoofoundation.org.uk

Hi Bill [23] the books I have only tell of League appearances and goals scored, but I do know that many players guested for clubs during World War 2.

John #24.

Yes, they tended to guest for a club local to where they were stationed or one near home if they were on leave.

Like all players Soo's career was affected by the war and in his case, at 24/25 in 1939, he'd have been at his peak.

On 9th May 1942 against Wales at Ninian Park, Frank was the first non-white person to play for the England national football team and still is the only player of an Asian background to reach that level for England. He went on to play for England a further eight more times and captained the RAF team during the Second World War. He also appeared as a guest player for Everton, Newcastle United, Chelsea, Brentford, and Millwall to name but a few.

Another great trip down the historical football lane, John Senior.

You made me think of a few things. I was up in the West Midlands with family yesterday.

One of my nephews is a West Brom fan and quite pessimistic at the moment. Some of them are Wolves and alarmed at the rate of players they are selling. Some Villa, others Man Utd and Liverpool.

Stoke and the Victoria Ground randomly made me think of Gordon Banks. Until he died, I never realised he had served in the Army (National Service in Germany).

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Hi Danny [26],

I thought that this thread would have run its course, without you posting. I was fortunate inasmuch as I've spent all my life in an Everton family, with the exception of two younger 'second cousins' who have favoured Liverpool.

I have no way to prove it, but I firmly believe that my Granddad who was 13 years old when the Football League was formed in 1888, would have attended the games.

Regarding Gordon Banks and the Army, Everton played against an Army team before the start of the season at Goodison one season and the next at Aldershot.

The Army had many top class players who were doing their National Service. I wouldn't put money on it, but I think that Alex Young and Ron Yeats were in the same Army team.

John Mac, Snr, thanks for your outstanding effort, spoken from the heart.

Inspirational and keeps the club's history as a positive inspiration for this season and all seasons. You've made this an easy read, and that is a skill that is to be acclaimed.

Your the Oracle for all matters on Everton history, an outstanding contribution to the TW Family.

Thank you.

"They [WBA] beat the all-too-sure Prestonians at the Oval, with a team of Englishmen, mostly born near West Bromwich."

How things have changed! The number of overseas players today. For the better? For the worse?

A good read, anyway, John. Thanks.

Hi Paul [28],

As I have said previously, I've always been interested in football, mainly due my Uncle Tommy and other members of the family. My first love as a young boy was obviously Everton, but I couldn't get enough of football in any form.
And as I've stated many times, I have one or two reference books, and therefore I can't take credit for anything as complex as the posts I submit.

Hi Brent [29],

I have to be true to my beliefs, and while I can't dispute that football is far more skillful now than it was in the late '40s, when I first set foot in Goodison Park, I can't claim that today's game is more enjoyable, but it would be fair to say that I am programmed and, if Everton are playing at home, I have to be there.

I had to look that up, John. Yes, it appears that Alex Young did play for the Army. I never knew that. I suppose, going back to the days of National Service, there will be many others. There is probably an Everton-Army Hall of Fame out there.

In the corridors of the Army FA at Aldershot, there are photos of each team from each season going back years. I suspect Alex could be on one of them.

You are right about the standard. I played alongside individuals who had flirted with professional football before joining. One was with Norwich, another with Wigan and a friend made a few appearances for Newport (when in the Football League), Lincoln City and Bristol Rovers. Another was on Newcastle's books as a youngster, one more went on to coach in the youth setup at Fleetwood Town. How he never made it to some level is beyond me. I myself had my Bellefield moment, but it wasn't to be. Many were playing part-time semi-professional football in their spare time, when not deployed.

It doesn't sound glamorous, but those who understand, know that to get to that level is not easy and often comes down to getting the break, the judgemental opinions of coaches and scouts, or sheer standout ability as well as hard work.

I've often said, the Army could compete in the 5th or 6th tier of English football if they could put their best team together every week. But due to the nature of the beast, they can rarely put out their best team for every fixture, so play in the county leagues as a member of the FA.

Not my background, but to this day, the Royal Engineers proudly wear the FA Cup as their badge, on their football top, in recognition of them winning the trophy in 1875.

I digress, but hopefully in line with the historical theme of the original post.

Hi Danny, [31] my memory is not so good now, but I also think Liverpool had a goalkeeper who only played one game for them, his name was John Ogston, but if memory serves me right he had the nickname of "Tubby". I think that he was in the Army team with Alex Young and Ron Yeats.
I was at Goodison in the early 60s, when Everton played the last home game against the Army, but all I can remember of it is, that Peter Baker Tottenham Hotspur's full back played.

Brent (29), West Brom. beat an Everton team, in the 1968 cup final, which consisted of eleven English players.

Fortuitously, I came across a documentary on YouTube called, "100 years of ⚽️ The Football League documentary".

It goes right back to the founding of the Football League upto when the Premier League took over the governance of the top tier of domestic football.

Pure nostalgia for old farts like me and a possible education for younger Blues!

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