Bridging the Gap

I would have been fearful of putting it into words myself as I would have burst a blood vessel, such is the accumulated frustration of the last 30 years — and especially those last years of Moyes 1.0.

But this could and should be radically different. Episode 1 (2 or 3?) on Saturday was hopefully just the start!

But always the nagging fear is when it comes to 'All the Usual Suspects' - especially Vs the rs - he will revert to treating them with too much respect...or as some might say - Fear.

Is it still - Moyes will be Moyes?

We'll have to wait and see.

Moyes has managed us in two Derbies since returning, and I didn't see a sniff of fear in either of them. On the contrary, I saw two strong, brave performances.

Well, we had a very good go in the home derby and deserved a draw but, after Salah had scored to put Liverpool ahead, for the next 20 minutes we were very quiet and, in the last few minutes, desperation took over and we got the equaliser.

At Anfield, we should have gone off at half-time leading but, in the second half, we never had one shot on target but played to get a draw. Although Liverpool were lucky to get away with that goal, when you defend and don't attack, it's usually inevitable that you will concede a goal.

I think that second half had more than a sniff of fear in it — from Everton.

Leicester was a blip, a weird aberation, and it won't happen again.

Sorry to be so downbeat, and I really hope I'm completely wrong, but unless there is some unforeseable change in football governance planned, the 'elite' are now untouchable, protected and pampered beyond belief. We might huff and puff, but we'll never blow their house down.

If that happens on the back of putting a few of the "big six" to the sword... then great!

If it happens with little or no success against the "big six"... then still great!

"It's not who you beat, it's where you finish

And we're gonna finish...erm, on an upward trajectory"

Anyone who has played the game will tell you that, when you know a team has superior players, you are only lifted for a while… then their quality takes over and caution sets in.

The Premier League has gone too far in promoting its darling clubs and I hope we see a wind of change. The 5 subs rule was only initially tried in the pandemic but some smart ass from the Sky elite thought it would be a good idea (for the elite teams) to be able to have 5 subs.

You're right, Christine, in that we will always have a puncher's chance… but that is about the extent of it at the moment.

Then again, Brighton made 4 subs against Man City and turned that game around! It's a squad game more than ever.

We finally seem to be building a decent one and have a few options off the bench ourselves, for now…

Down to 10 men, they would not let Liverpool settle down and contested every ball to pull back a 2-goal deficit. Yes, they lost eventually but they made Liverpool players very nervous when they received a pass. Defiance will defeat arrogance.

Newcastle have already shown how to get at Liverpool and score: win the midfield battle, get it in the box and rough them up, and let's see. But they will get every decision going over there.

The Villa game is a huge game and big test for this team and Moyes – win that and going into the derby should fill the players with huge self-belief.

Anybody else think the red shite went on this mad spending spree because of our new stadium?

Guess what – all the most successful teams are built on a strong defence. All-out attack and no regard to defence gets you Kevin Keegan's Newcastle Utd!

Regardless, it is not the past that matters, but the future – I see huge progress since Moyes came back in January, both on and off the field (so certainly not all down to him). It would be good if (some) fans could take the blinkers off and get behind the manager and team.

I suspect that even those who really struggle with Moyes as a manager have been pleasantly surprised by our progress since he returned and I doubt that he will be here beyond the rest of his contract in any case (so a couple more years).

In the meantime – onwards and upwards!

The only way to get over this Inferiority Complex is to play without fear... 'Sin Miedo', as Bobby said.

We were patted on the back for our nil-nil away at Arsenal last season, but I thought it was an embarrassing display of pure negativity.

We call ourselves a Big Club, so let's start acting like it and go after these shithouses. So what if we lose, we lose most of them anyway, at least we could lose with a sense of pride knowing we're no longer going to kneel before them!

Twaddle. It's actually not about Moyes at all, it's about how those 10 other clubs compete in a league that's so badly weighted against them it's farcical. When it comes to Everton, just how do we do it given the manager's much known cautious approach?

Leicester was a blip only because they were a good team who had no respect for whoever they played, were managed well, and never set their stall out to play defensively.

It can be done, it's just getting the right combination for a good team. How close are we to having that team?

Definitely all about Moyes.

Let's just concentrate on at least the eight teams that finished above us last season.

Paul, I couldn't care less about the rs, I just want to go out and beat them. If we can do that and do it to the others, it shows it can be done. The game is won in the head before the ball is kicked.

That's fair enough considering he's the Everton manager although I personally don't think we should just look to get after Liverpool in a few weeks at Anfield because, if we do, I could see us ending up getting hammered 6-3!

I really enjoyed the way we played at Anfield in the first half during the last game and I think we would have been going in at half-time in a very comfortable position if Beto had taken his chances, especially because we limited Liverpool's very potent attack for most of the game.

Save attacking them with constant aggression for Bramley-Moore Dock or Wembley, but it's a different story at Anfield where I hope we can frustrate them and then pounce!

Paul H, I understand what you're saying but, like I often say, the quicker we adopt most of their policies, then the quicker I believe we will grow.

Nothing to do with their £400M forward players?

"It's not about Moyes at all"

Tony #22 et al

" all about Moyes"

Klopp used the money to buy big names and then Slot just walked into a premiership championship squad.
He has been attempting to change that squad by bringing in his own players and who's to say they won't win it again.

However, I am only interested in our Blues and we have acquired some decent players who just might become the best team to watch this season although they need to tighten up on defense pretty quickly.

This new lad from Freiburg could be a real decent player in the middle of the park given his height etc.

We need to avoid the injury bugs that always plague us especially to KDH and Jack who get's fouled a lot.

I don't think we get anything against the Wicker Men if we adopt that type of approach.

It’s why I took a lot of heart from Tarkowski’s tackle on Macalister, because I haven’t seen many players wearing the royal blue jersey, against Liverpool, at Anfield, over the last 25 years, who haven’t given a fuck about them, and I believe that’s why the only time we have beaten them at Anfield in the last 25 years, was when we never had to play against the crowd.

The only manager to beat them was Ancelotti and he was way more conservative than our current manager (during their times at Everton)

Playing open football against some of the best teams in the world does not necessarily make you brave, it may just make you foolish.

Ultimately there is more than one way to skin a cat; it’s up to a manager to decide on approach and they will be judged on the consequent results.

We’ve just started a rebuild. I agree with Ryan that top 10 this season would be a good achievement. My expectation is still around 12th.

Oliver, 13, Liverpool spent very little in last season's summer transfer window so I doubt this year's spree is anything to do with our stadium.

Christine, enjoyed that article. One quick thing to add to Leicester. I seem to remember they had a settled side, few injuries. The defence was pretty consistent and they had pace upfront.

.

12th but with how many Top 6 scalps?

Apparently it matters.

Despite it "clearly" not being about Moyes there have been a few posters suggesting it's all about Moyes.

I respect their opinion as well as yours.

That said I expect there will be improvement this season. Anywhere between finishing 9th-11th will be seen as good progress.

Crystal Palace have surprised me thus far, despite losing key players and Brentford, Bournemouth and Brighton too. As I said, early days, but I see no reason why we can't aim for and achieve a Top 6 finish!

Apparently it matters? Of course it fucking matters, now good night Brendan, and when you finally get inside our new stadium, you might even begin to realise that it’s befitting of the Latin on the badge.

It’s a long time since I’ve felt any connection, between the Latin and the club, but I’ve never stopped believing and I for one want David Moyes to continue being a flat-track bully, especially if he can start taking the bigger scalps, because they’re the ones that give the fans the most pleasure and the players, a lot more belief. Goodnight 🍀💙

Tony@22 it’s all about Moyes🤦‍♂️ 🤷‍♂️👍

Just celebrated our 46th wedding anniversary.

Last anniversary we were in Liverpool and I was at Goodison thanks to you... the Bournemouth debacle.

BTW, What's happened to Danny O'Neill?

But for clarity, just for you, it was about the disparity between the Top 6 and how the pundits pander to them; it was about how they can be overcome and how the rest of us have to approach winning and lastly what Everton and David Moyes could or should do about it. Hope that helps.

This is an Everton site, this is an acknowledgement that financially we can't go toe to toe with the Top 6 financially because it's rigged that way, even if you had a shedload of cash. So it's about how you compete, or as some seem to think, not even bother to try.

BTW, wasn't Et Al a Moroccan winger and his mate Pi Dantic the centre-forward for Real Mud rid? Sure I have heard them somewhere.. :-)

PS funny, was wondering about Danny, not seen or heard of late.

You've got to get the mix of individuals right, not just their attributes as players. Attitude matters.

I just re-read your article and would have to disagree with your view about Moyes vs the Big 6.

Whilst we didn't win away against four of them (although we certainly did beat Man City and Spurs away), we regularly used to beat them all at home.

We also were extremely unlucky not to beat Arsenal away (2 deflected goals, one deep into injury time, leading to a 2-2 draw) and Man Utd away (the 4-4 draw). This debunks the myth of Moyes keeping it tight and pinching one.

In subsequent years under multiple managers, our record away has hardly been any better – a win vs Man Utd and one vs the RS – under multiple managers. Are they all guilty of being afraid and not having a go as well?

Et Al... Pi Dantic... football players?

And Tony A was hoisting me a few comments back for being sarcastic!

(I'll unapologetically use those names in the future though)

When he first arrived, he had no Premier League experience, was fairly inexperienced, and perhaps most importantly, he had very little money to spend.
Nevertheless, he did okay in my opinion, making a number of astute buys — like Cahill, Pienaar, Fellaini etc. None were what I would describe as marquee players at the time, but went on to be great servants of the club.

We still lacked the depth and squad quality of the Top 6, and so maybe this was a reason for his often-criticised defensive tactics against the top clubs. After all, his job as manager is to get the best results for the club from the assets he has at hand.

We can criticise his tactics as being too defensive, based on fear, giving teams too much respect etc. But it was his call to make, and he had to have made it based on the players he had. We know this laid him open to criticism from many of the armchair managers on this site. Maybe they're right… but who knows how we would have played if he had had any serious money to spend?

What's different now is that he has got a lot more experience of Premier League football and has been backed by owners with money. Has his attitude changed?
Well, his signings so far seem to be creative and attacking, and his tactics seem to be to get the ball forward more quickly rather than backwards.

We are still lacking in critical positions, as we all know, and despite the signings, the squad is still too small — especially when injuries and international competitions come around.

The signs are looking positive, however, implying to me that he is looking to play more attacking, attractive football. Will that translate into a more positive game plan when we play the Big 6 this time around?

We'll soon know!

See what Peter #44 wrote?

The mindset and man-management is an interesting one. Shankly, Brian Clough, Ancelotti come to mind. We certainly have the makings of a squad to compete but we shall see. If Moyes bottles it and plays safe, I think he'll be replaced come the end of the season.

What I saw was 30 minutes of domination by a vastly superior team that was on its way to a title.

Not fear.

"Mid table plus"... if he does that but doesn't spank a few of the big guns?

The stats for David Moyes against the top six are below.

Chelsea FC 49 8 13 28 (0.76) Points Per Match
Arsenal FC 45 6 11 28 (0.64)
Liverpool FC 44 6 11 27 (0.66)
Man City 43 15 7 21 (1.21)
Man United 40 7 8 25 (0.73)

Totals 221 games, Won 42, Drew 50 Lost 129

Indeed, according to TransferMarkt, they are the six clubs that give him the worst return as a manager. He is not alone to be fair… but at the same time, they are the stats.

https://www.transfermarkt.com/david-Moyes/bilanz/trainer/450

That's his record, of course that's an indication also of the fact we are not a Top 6 club as well!!

Grealish, Ndiaye, Beto and Dewsbury-Hall – bring it on.

I fear it is the innate caution of the chap who took over 7 months ago, instigating the sharpest increase in performance I've seen watching Everton, and having just completed the best transfer window in a generation. He's on his last warning!

We had pretty decent sides under him but never seemed to push on when it mattered, and whether that was tactical decisions or poor execution, we await to see if the current squad can do the job. Fingers crossed — I certainly hope they can!

David Moyes gets judged at much higher standards than other Everton managers like Dyche etc.

The fact is the Premier League is skewered towards 3 or 4 clubs.

Hardly any manager's fault wage bills are a 1/3rd of the top clubs.

The insinuation that the mindset of players is more important than the ability of players. Not sure I agree.

I think it goes a long way to how a team performs – no matter how skilful the player. It can be a deciding factor in if a team wins or loses.

David Moyes gets judged at much higher standards than other Everton managers, like Dyche etc.

That's because it's his second time around after leaving in a particularly bad way. So yes, he is seen differently and judged so, rightly or wrongly.

The fact is the Premier League is skewered towards 3 or 4 clubs.

Totally agree, but how do we go about changing that on the field?

Hardly any manager's fault wage bills are a 1/3rd of the top clubs.

You cut your cloth to suit; it's generally a reflection of supply and demand, those with the most can get the most and pay for it. Not Moyes's fault, or any of the other managers, but he is paid to win. How he counters that is his job; how successful he is will be if he impacts on the results.

If he does well this season, he may get an extension of another year or two but, even so, I think you may well be right.

And if so, he will want it to be on the back of some success, eg, like West Ham. If that happens, he will be deservedly well remembered.

If there was ever a time for the rest of the Premier League teams to be able to build a team to compete with those above them rather than meekly attempt to limit them and hope for some luck, it is right now. He who dares wins…

Minus 2 Spanish, 1 French and maybe a couple of German and Italian teams, Premier League teams can usually pick who they want from around the world and most likely, offer better financial packages. To be brave once again is what is needed.

I suspect (without checking) that subsequent managers in the last decade-plus following Moyes 1.0 have similarly bad records against these same teams. I would also suggest that managers of many other teams have similarly bad records against this bunch (again, without checking).

This includes Martinez with his "sin miedo" style (which really didn't work out too well) and the sainted Ancelotti, who ended up playing a really boring style of football once he realised that his players weren't up to his (initial) attacking style.

I also think it is rather lazy to say that Moyes didn't set out to win against these teams – he definitely attacked them at home, but was more pragmatic away (although quite unlucky in my view on a few occasions away).

Regardless, I am much more interested in what we do now under Moyes 2.0 – so far, the signs are very encouraging. He has managed to reduce the average age of the squad and has got us playing on the front foot (even with last season's squad). This season, he has (I assume) had at least a say in our recruitment and we have by-and-large recruited well, with attacking players to the fore.

The arguments about Moyes, have all been done to death, and that’s why I haven’t got involved with any stupid little arguments or criticised-our manager on this thread.

Feel free to look back, because in this modern world, I’m certain some people will take offence at me calling David Moyes, a flat-track bully, but forgetting about the football for a moment Brendan, congratulations on your anniversary mate.

You have got to get to see this new stadium, Brendan, so get planning mate, maybe try and come over with Andy C, because he’s another man, who has got to see inside our wonderful new stadium, with his own eyes💙

We definitely all see a different game, and when I was watching a very average Everton team, slowly forcing Liverpool back, they didn’t look like a good team to me that night, were my thoughts.

Out of the blue, Salah got them back in front, but if Everton, had been a better team, I still would have fancied us to win.

Our crowd aren’t stupid, they knew our limitations, just as they did the season before, when we just had too much energy for a tired Liverpool team.

The biggest difference in the crowd between those two games and the previous however many, in my own personal opinion, was that our crowd seemed to be putting aside their hatred for Liverpool, and seemed to be concentrating on how much they love Everton, rather than how much we all hate those horrible red bastards🤷‍♂️

I will know when we have really improved because the attitude of our self -obsessed/centred neighbours, will suddenly become a lot different towards us

'our crowd seemed to be putting aside their hatred for Liverpool, and seemed to be concentrating on how much they love Everton, rather than how much we all hate those horrible red bastards'

One of the best things that's been posted on here for a while.

I can't deny I hate them. But, with a new dawn at the dock and some footballers coming in who appear to be able to control, move and pass it properly (over short distances, which is the real skill imo) I'm almost able to blank the Rosemary's Babies out.

If we can focus our energies on the team we love, in every game and not just the Derby, then the potential is there for us to become a fortress.

Also, look at the bloody stadium we have. Those photos of it lit up at night from across the water, just WOW!

Personally, I think someone got a bit titty with him on here and he's having a break. Martin is the same - he got flamed for making a point and had enough.
Sometimes I feel the same way. It gets too personal and sarky at times simply because of differing thoughts and opinions.

It's never going to compensate for class, but it can rock them on their heels.
I spoke about our club and our manager and how he should set them up to win with the group of players we now have, because I cannot see them as 11 men behind the ball. It's the only way we can attempt to compete for Europe, for a cup, to make a difference.

The glass ceiling may not fall but we can crack the bloody thing. Yes, a major part of that is David Moyes, and I so want him to stick it right down their throats.. tell them where to go, and then some. We may finish as best of the rest once more but I would have a smile as big as the Mersey Tunnel if we turned over a few of those greedy boys.

If Everton or any other team is going to do that, they have to take it to them; we and many others are not good enough defensively to play behind the ball for 90 minutes. Stuff the pundits, exactly what have we to lose?

You now have players whose teams have got into the Champions League still leaving their clubs; normally, the mantra for players leaving used to be "I want Champions League" but even that no longer has the pull when there is bigger fish wanting you. Also, the new thing is players refusing to play to make sure they get their move.

Yes, I am sure that many will say "But Palace won a trophy and they aren't a top 6 club." Yes, they did… but they have lost Eze, nearly lost Guehi, and I doubt the manager will be there very long.

Also, with the expansion of the number of games in the Champions League that will be more extra revenue for the clubs in that competition and now we have even more places in that competition.

Hopefully, the defence will be sorted (like last season) as well.

Christine @ 17, my first reaction to the article was a little stronger than 'twaddle'.

Thanks by the way, Christine, for making the effort, you put me to shame there as I have been sadly lacking in that department.

I get we run out of topics from time to time but we have covered how to play the teams that are rated the best very very often.

We have a better attacking team now than for many seasons and we are in a better position to 'have a go' as you suggest. We will have to see what approach Moyes uses this season.

You know you have been one of Moyes's more persistent critics and, reading it, it seemed like another chance to criticise him.

There are posters on here who seem to be hypersensitive about criticism or perceived criticism of David Moyes. This is also becoming really boring

I like Moyes 2.0 so far, but his record against the Big 6 is pretty atrocious as Christine lays out her post @ 52. One thing is for sure, David Moyes has nothing to lose by going with a more progressive game plan this time around - it is likely his last big job.

I really liked how many players we got into the opposition box away at Wolves. We won’t play like that at Mordor or the Emirates, but if we can commit our players to attack at the right moments with intent both Liverpool and Arsenal are beatable.

But here’s hoping anyway

Coybftrs

When I was posting last night I was using an ipad that I'm not particularly familiar with... for example I don't now how to copy and paste on the ipad.

If I had been on my laptop I would have posted all of your first sentence #22 with my added emphasis

"I read the article to see if it was all about Moyes and thought that only when Christine was talking about Everton did she make it all about Moyes."

Surely at the very least that sentence is open to interpretation... certainly no insinuation on my part.

On the new stadium... it looks immense and hopefully we're well on our way to building a team worthy of gracing our new home.

Travelling over to see a match with Andy Crooks at the new ground... could be the first episode in an Irish version of "Still Game"

The likes of Liverpool can be scarily good attacking but a line up of Ndiaye up front, with Grealish and Dibling flanking plus KDH behind is plenty good enough to give their somewhat creaky defence pause for thought.

I think we will score a lot more this year, even without a proven PL striker, but we have to hope Pickford has another blinder, Jarrod gets back quickly, and that JOB and Myko stay injury free.

I would say, for the first time in 30 years, we have a group of players who want to play attacking football rather than a tactical exercise in survival.

Don't you think that Moyes might just have had a say in that?

Villa have finished top 6 last 2 seasons. Winning that is a great start because they are not great atm. I genuinely believe Moyes v1.5 would go into that game and lose it, or scrape a bore draw.

Liverpool defensively right now are also there to be had. Dave #6 is spot on - it's a game of 2 Moyes - at his best he can win, but too often winning positions (FA Cup 2009?) have been surrendered by DM doubting himself and his strengths and his team end up following suit.

Last weekend showed some really positive signs, but it was against Wolves. And as someone said, I don't believe Moyes is a defensive manager - his teams look way better when he's positive. Now we have to say "Do it again Davey, and when the pressure is on - and it will be - don't blink first."

We won't beat Liverpool - they are too good. That's what we all really think, I suspect. But we can hurt them and we can score against them and we can defend well so why not?

If we lose its expected, if we win we'll maybe we can finally say Moyes 2.0 is the real deal and the history will start being rewritten. Heaven knows he needs it as much as we do.

Martin? Which one? Mason disappears on a regular basis.

Or, how about we just see what happens and enjoy the ride.

Okkayyyy

Good to see you're not entirely against short sarcastic posts...

That is an example of the hypersensitive post that I was talking about.

Go on Eric, I challenge you to identify anti-Moyes dogma on this thread.

If there are any articles on how it can be done, then by all means point me to them… but the McNulty article assumed it was just a formality. Yet we all know that's not true, or else it's pointless trying.

Has the joy of football been sucked out of everyone else by the antics of governing bodies? Because it feels that way.

Somebody has to break that cycle of resignation, that cycle of arrogance. With every tweak to a competition in favour of said teams, the love and passion for the game is lost to everyone else.

We have won nothing for 30 years. Sickeningly. So come on, tell me, how does a club — how do we, break the stranglehold? That's what this is all about, isn't it?

Frowned upon by those who don't possess the sharp rebuttals of birthright to a city where such is a defence to the adversities of entitlement, of reality.

Humour is lost without the occasional barb of human nature. Life would be so bland without it, life would be like being from the Home Counties...

We can get closer by playing the game – boosting our revenues both legitimately (new stadium, sponsorship deals) and less legitimately (selling the women's team and Goodison to ourselves, inflated sponsorship deals, hoovering the young talent to sell on, etc) – but I'm not sure we will ever quite close the gap.

If the Super League comes up again, my view is that it would be good for these six teams to leave, on the proviso that they are not allowed to play in their domestic league anymore. Liverpool would then effectively become a "Shanghai Reds" franchise or some such, and we could get on with playing domestically against proper clubs with proper fanbases. It would mean losing the Sky gravy train, but it may return the soul of British football.

Linked to this, there are rumours of Fifa and Uefa sanctioning additional fixtures for domestic matches being scheduled to take place abroad (eg, Australia, China etc). This needs to be resisted at all costs!

I think you're spot on. It's my frustration that I fear the only way to break the mould is to break up the Premier League. Greed will make it inevitable because of the megalomaniac clubs that see the world as an opportunity rather than being confined to an island.

I actually think the game would be better off without the Premier League or those clubs… but that's surely irrational, isn't it?

It really is boring to hear the usual "Dour Davey", "Dithering Davey" epithets that are constantly trotted out along with unsubstantiated statements doubting our ability to compete with the Sky 6 because of his alleged attitude and that he was responsible (along with Kenwright) for making the club worse.

His record in his first term as our manager was that he lowered the age of the squad he inherited, got rid of the deadwood on huge wages (Gascoigne and Ginola etc), and moved us from relegation fodder to regular European placements, a cup final and several semi-finals, playing a much more attacking brand of football. He also managed to beat the top teams regularly at home, just not away. This is a matter of record and should be acknowledged as such.

And Yes, he is pragmatic at times… and Yes, he stayed too long first time around… and No, I was not convinced we should have taken him back. Not saying he is perfect – far from it – but his record as Everton manager is literally second to none since the first coming of Howard Kendall and the (very brief) hiatus under Joe Royle, before Peter Johnson decided to withdraw the cash.

I have no problem with people saying they don't like or want Moyes as a manager or calling out his shortcomings, but I seriously dislike the rewriting of history to support why they dislike him and/or don't want him as manager. The name calling is also just juvenile.

I don't think we can compare Moyes's tenure, previous and now, because under Kenwright, all Moyes could do was balance the books, with selling Rooney a prime example by Bill. I do believe if he had been able to spend big on a striker, we might have got to the next level.

Before anyone mentions Beattie or Yakubu, they weren't the next level. He has brought in skilful offensive players this season, but our unbalanced defence could cost us, and we need Branthwaite back.

I do think it's harder to beat the so-called Top 6 now, because we and the other 14 clubs are not playing off a level playing field, thanks to Masters. Even with wealthy owners, how can you challenge for Champions League places when you're not allowed spend the same money as the Red Shite and Co???

Hopefully he won't have us sit back and let the Red Shite have the ball when we play them in a few weeks. I still think it's the first season in years where we can progress and finish in the Top 10 under Moyes.

Onwards and upwards.

My biggest fear is that we will end up with the biggest (richest) teams effectively competing in global competition with one squad of players and still being allowed to compete in their domestic leagues with another squad of players, which will still cost more and have higher wages than the other clubs in that league.

To make that work, those "elite" teams will need to be protected from relegation, so they will continue to be able to spend what they want on transfers and wages in both squads. That will effectively mean that the rest of the Premier League, for example, will become feeder clubs for the global elite. That really would be the death of football!

Yes, it will mean no Grealish or Dewsbury-Hall or Aznou or Gana or Garner or Michael Keane. But aged 8, are they going to sign for the Man Utd academy and never play football if they don't make it – or would Dewsbury-Hall go to Chelsea knowing that, at the end of his contract, that is the end of his career?

Had Beto had more luck, with a very marginal offside goal and hitting the inside of the post but coming back out with another chance, then their offside goal being allowed to stand. We woz robbed.

Anyway, this season we have proper talent, proper winners, Grealish and Dewsbury-Hall especially. They will assist Ndiaye (who lacked support last season) to have a real cutting edge this time.

Moyes hates his shite record away at the so-called top sides. This season, it can change and must change. UTFT.

I hope I am wrong – I don't give a toss about the Champions League or Club World Cup and I am only interested in the competitions in which Everton compete.

I would much rather have a Premier League without the Sky 6, which is a much more level playing field for us to compete in, than see us join this false worldwide elite.

Who are the most hyper-sensitive?

Those who criticise the posters who criticise Moyes? Or those who criticise the posters who criticise the posters who criticise Moyes?

Thanks for the heads up on your frustration with the written word.

As my grandfather used to say a slight inclination of the cranium is as sufficient as a spasmodic movement of the retina to an equine devoid of it's visionary capacity.

I do see where you are coming from. There is now the chance of a technically and tactically competent attacking Everton. Forwards provided with balls that they can run onto and make anticipatory runs to meet.

Firstly, Everton have players to do this. The midfield has an attacking midfield pairing and there is a pivot of two defending midfielders, which favours ball progression, rather than reactive players.

But this needs the defensive line to push up in support and not allow gaps for opposition play. The defence needs to have the pace to defend on the turn and that is where the weakness lies.

The Bramley-Moore Dock pitch is 4 metres longer than the Goodison pitch.S o getting defenders fit to play is crucial to add and vary pace.

Surprisingly, Keane seems to appreciate good football in front of him. He does have skills and some of his distribution passing has been really good.

I agree, Christine: Moyes has to have Everton playing on the front foot to progress, but there are signs of him relapsing to negative tactics, and the midfield not being proactive enough as a result.

Your article really is the crux regarding Everton's progress, Christine. We definitely don't want to see central defenders allowing the ball to bounce.

Christine did say her article wasn't about Moyes.

His several semifinals (three) were a win against an under-strength Man Utd team on penalties, a loss against Chelsea (again) in a two-legged semifinal, losing the first leg to a last-minute goal after playing against 10 men for a large percentage of the second half, and then the game we were winning against Liverpool at Wembley when his captain told us how they spoke at length at half time about being prepared for one of the worst Liverpool teams in our lifetime throwing the kitchen sink at us during the second half.

Peter, defend Moyes all day, but how an Everton manager was allowed eleven years without winning an away game against any of the Big 4, never mind a trophy, is the biggest example of how the overall standards at Everton Football Club were slowly diminishing.

Our league position might have improved and become a lot more consistent but the overall standards of what people expected from Everton had never been so low, especially when you think about things logically (we stopped competing and believing we could win) and how, even though we began to average coming around 7th, with the 8th highest wage bill, we were suddenly punching well above our weight?

Absolute pony imo, but I suppose I'm one of the people who you say has rewritten history with regard to David Moyes, and anyone who reads this post will be able to understand this. (If they can understand my writing and my sarcasm, Brendan!)

My opinion is obviously different to yours, Peter, but I can't reiterate enough how nothing would give me more pleasure than finally seeing David Moyes deliver us desperate Evertonians a trophy.

Come on, Davie, win us a trophy, because I'm bored of arguing about your illustrious past!

Here is one reason we can never compete with the big boys:

Saudi Arabia's PIF Has Clear Stance on Buying Tottenham After Daniel Levy Exit

The PIF acquired an 80% stake in Newcastle in 2021 and has invested in several other sports.

The Saudi-backed Public Investment Fund (PIF) has already made clear whether it would buy another Premier League club amid Daniel Levy's Spurs exit.

According to BBC Sport, PIF has assets said to be worth around £250 billion.

"illustrious past!"... right there.

No one and I mean no-one has ever claimed that Moyes record was illustrious good, perhaps even very good... illustrious?

I don't understand how relatively mild praise of Moyes goes in your ears and comes out as "best manager ever".

Remind me of his predecessor's record against the better sides away from home?

This made me laugh from our resident comic, Jezza:

“I agree, Christine, Moyes has to have Everton playing on the front foot to progress, but there are signs of him relapsing to negative tactics and the midfield not being proactive enough as a result.”

5 goals in the last two Premier League matches

2 scored by our midfield players

I read Christine's article and then the Comments.Sorty Christine.

Ryan#111

That was the impression I got when listening to Moyes after his comment after such matches.Granted it could have been other attempts to Lower expectations.I do agree that Everton to need to challenge as Christine suggests.This is what we have recently seen. but limitation regarding defensive pace have arose.Moyes's unfavourable record still stands. but we will see soon enough if he now can make a dent in it.

# Moyes's record

David Moyes’s managerial record against the “traditional top six” in the Premier League (typically Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Manchester United, Tottenham, and Manchester City):

Premier League Away Record vs Top Six (All-Time)

Across his entire managerial career in the Premier League, Moyes has struggled on the road against the traditional top six:

Played: 115

Wins: 10

Draws: 27

Losses: 78

Win percentage: ~8.7%

Away record against former “Big Four” (Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Man United)

Up until late 2023, Moyes had gone 73 away matches against those old “Big Four” clubs and registered:

just 1 win,

21 draws,

51 losses.

It was only in December 2023 that he ended that long drought with his first-ever road win at one of those stadiums.

Notes on Home Fixtures and

His overall away win rate is very low: about 10 out of 115 matches vs the full top six.

Prior to 2023, he had never won away at Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool or Man United—and managed just one win total in 73 trie

I know you would have taken on board Tony's description of those three woeful semi-finals that Moyes's Everton teams played in, as well as his sarcastic “illustrious” term.

Maybe you would like to give your opinion of those three semi-finals too?

A hint of constructive feedback and dummies come flying out of the prams.

Take Ryan above for instance.

No need to be so defensive or objectionable towards those who don’t agree with you. I like what Moyes is doing so far but it almost makes me change my mind.

11 years without a trophy is success apparently.

Which is it ?

If someone can explain to me how ANY manager is supposed to compete against clubs like the ‘big 6’ when they have an average turnover of £600m compared to ours of say £300m then I'm all ears

But no one ever does !!!

They just bash EVERY manager we have.

There must be loads of candidates...

Clue - not many

Delusional

The other 19 managers were all getting beat or at best drawing too at these top 6 grounds

But, manager bashing is what 99% of fans do in the 21st century no matter who they support. Look at Arteta, getting grief for finishing 2nd. Guardiola being criticised for not winning every game. Even in the lower leagues its exactly the same.

Like you, I find it a bit boring. The reductionism of just blaming the manager for all a clubs ills is why there is a rapid turnover in appointments.

We've battled relegation for a number of seasons, had about 10 mangers in as many years and faced an existential crisis. Realism is needed, but is seldom given.

If we make top 10 this year, the cry will be top 4, if we make top 4 there will be demands for a title. Its what fans do. And, tbf, as many have mentioned on TW, we should hold higher standards.

However, to think that another manager will come in, wave a magic wand and suddenly we will beat all the top teams at home? It's unlikely to happen.

David Moyes is far from perfect (and I didn't want him back tbh) but he has earned the right to see out his contract and help us build. No doubt there will be lots of frustration with him at times this season. Bringing in an 'attacking manager' (i don't even know who these people are), may do more harm than good. You may get lucky, but more likely, you won't.

Personally, I'm happy in the short term to be looking forward to going to the game again, in a fantastic stadium, and watching players who have creative ability and skill for a change.

Back on thread and how do we beat the top six, at least more than once a blue moon?
Defend as well as we did last season and attack like we are capable of this season. We have the firepower to hurt them now and once Branthwaite is back, and as long as Gana is fighting fit, we have the defence to give us a chance.
I just hope David Moyes believes in his players and doesn’t over respect the opposition. IF we go to a top six team to keep a point we’ll never get all three.

“Up until late 2023, Moyes had gone 73 away matches against those old “Big Four” clubs and registered:

just 1 win,

21 draws,

51 losses.”

Wow is that correct? Even worse than I thought. Based on that, he was very lucky to get the Everton job.

We must be living in a parallel universe where success is failure. And failure is success.

Fortunately, we have our resident excuse makers to put us right.

He played them seven times in his 19 matches in charge last season, wining once (v Spurs), drawing 3 times (v Man Utd, Liverpool and Arsenal) and narrowly losing 3 times (v Chelsea, Man City and Liverpool). Depends on your definition, I suppose, but that looks like one large dent (a win) and 3 small dents (draws) to me, unless of course you only count wins.

Still makes your assertion wrong though, doesn't it, as he registered a win against one of them, so very much a "dent". I would also add that we would have beaten Man Utd but for an extremely poor refereeing and VAR performance – I was at that match, my last ever at Goodison Park, and it was a disgrace.

The thing I find most distasteful about some of these discussions is the personalisation of them. This is not about Moyes or indeed any other manager. Everton's record against these teams is not good, but we are far, far from alone in that (as other posters have already pointed out).

Christine's article is about how we as a club can challenge them, given that we are not on a level playing field with them any longer (both in terms of financial clout, but also in terms of, in my view, stacked regulations and VAR bias).

I think that is becoming increasingly difficult and none of the managers we have had since Moyes 1.0 have come close to remotely allowing us to compete. I am optimistic generally and I have seen big strides forward under Moyes 2.0 (he gained us the whole season equivalent of 62 points last season, with the squad he inherited).

With our new attacking flair, I would expect to match that this season - if we do, we won't be far off Europe. That, in my view, is probably our best chance of silverware in the next few years.

Now we have every reason to believe that will change, maybe not now, not next year, but soon after.

By the logic of some on here, that is only explainable because literally all the other Premier League managers in those seasons were adopting a negative attitude and hence unable to win at those clubs in those years.

I can't be bothered to do the analysis/research, but it is highly likely that if take out home defeats against fellow Sky 6 sides, you can add many more seasons without any home defeats at all for this group. Such is their domination.

What does this all prove? Not much except to say that we have a very experience Premier League manager who (I would argue) has improved us once already (Moyes 1.0) and is in the process of doing it again. The club, on the other hand, has been a basket-case for decades.

Six. Yes six. He over saw one of the most dominating teams in two decades, and all he could do was win 6 games in 31 matches conceding 47 goals.

Mourinho was undefeated in 86 home games at Chelsea against good and shit teams. It ain't a cakewalk going to these away grounds and winning. It's why the players are paid what they are.

At the end which we, and TFG, will know if he can take us into Europe. In the meantime, to his and the players' credit, I am looking forward to football games.

I can hardly remember the names of the grandchildren these days... never mind the details of matches from many years back.

Anyway as a much more knowledgeable and wiser Evertonian said on these very pages recently... funny how we all see matches differently.

So I'm not sure there would be anything to gain.

Sorry if I gave the impression that my comments are a personal attack on Moyes. They are not. I have been an Everton supporter since the 1960s and I am very interested in Everton's current progress.

My understanding of ToffeeWeb is that we thrash out all the facts and come to reasonable conclusions, which may differ. I think thought-provoking articles like Christine's are ToffeeWeb at its best, resulting in wide-ranging and informative comments.

But comments will not boil the pot on the field of play and we can only hope that some of us are right and further discussion can take place.

It was a good idea to put a proviso in your article, Christine.

It may be put to a severe test over the next few games but RS overloaded with expensive talent have won two games at Anfield with late goals so that will be the biggest test for our defensive prowess.

I think we are on the same page – wanting Everton to improve as a club – although we may disagree (hopefully respectfully!) on how we get that improvement. Like him or not, Moyes is our manager and we need to get behind him and the players – they are already competing on a really uneven playing field against the Sky 6 so need that support.

Personally, I don't think he will be with us beyond the end of his current contract and I am hopeful that, in that time, he will stabilise and improve us (again) and maybe win something? Wouldn't that be a fitting end to his career – to win something with Everton!

Moyes main relevent success was establishing West Ham at the London Stadium after the move from Upton Park.He was far better than the other two Managers that tried.I am confident he will establish Bramley Dock as venue comparable to Goodison.That will be no mean achievement, when you compare with other Club's Stadium moves..Also the time is right for him to get wins against traditional top 6 Clubs and lift the roof off the place.

I think as you do regarding the next stage, but managing the expectations of the new Stadium will be a factor imo.

So I think it is better to keep a open mind about Moyes and he is aware of the Glass Ceiling , mentioning it on his first day back.

The point was made that the future of football will see a global super league which will supercede the Premier league. I think that's true and in many ways the sooner it happens the better, leaving a slimed down version nationally. The fans increasingly have little or no say in the matter, EUFA has already created its Champions league structure, surely clubs cannot continue to play in two league at the same time? Choices will have to be made before an inevitable split. The Premier league is biased, some say corrupt, others greedy, but they are screwing the non elite ensuring their prized possessions are not impacted.

So, will we ever see a variety of clubs winning trophies again? I guess the real truthful or cynical answer is no, certainly not under the banner of the Premier League. The battle for just what will succeed it, is quietly underway. Who, how and when it happens is another matter.

Someone pointed out to me that it won’t be long before there might be 14 American owned football clubs in the EPL, and this is the exact number of votes that are needed to bring about change?

I don’t know why I have just written that, because when the other 19 clubs, decided to vote against Wolves, when they tried to get rid of VAR, then it’s not hard to become very cynical and believe that the television companies, must have surely got involved?

Football always reflects life, imo, and I think it’s fair to say that in these very uncertain times, both football and life in general, both seem to be getting driven by controversy?

We are never party, to the minutes of meetings were these decisions are taken, and to actual decisions when made,only when the penalties are announced and even these seem to be a movable target.I would expect that they would claim such minutes are immiscible any way.

I think the World Club Cup will grow and the European Champions will align with this competition, as will the other continents and there Leagues.

The end result will be a end to competition and a increase in certainty for the Elite Clubs.

Bridging the Gap for Everton will be dependent on how the Everton Brand is managed and whether the potential of the Club Brand as a Traditional Top Flight Club can be realised.Unfortinately fortune on the pitch is only one aspect of the Brand.

As I said the most important thing at the moment is the management of the move from Goodison to Bramley Dock.That is the real reason Moyes was employed imo.He did a good job at West Ham in this respect.

Michael K. is asking on another thread where you got your rest & recovery info from.

You probably missed it but no doubt you'll want to share with your fellow ToffeeWebbers?

It's the Myko injury thread in case you need to see Michael's actual question.

Remember we're mostly quite old and remember the game as it was played before the Premier League. Footballers today are not, and only know the Premier League and Champions League - there's literally no professional footballers with any memory of anything else, and thus it's the competition they all want to play in.

For us as supporters of Everton we have zero affinity with the Champions League and really bugger all European pedigree to speak of - our greatest night was winning the Cup Winners Cup 40 years ago, and in fact for the vast majority of Evertonians old enough to remember, our greatest night in European football was Bayern Munich at home in the semi final.

Also, and to put that European win into some perspective, we only play 9 games to win it, that's 4 two legged ties and the final. That's nothing compared to the length of a European competition these days.

We are miles behind the RS and in truth, always have been, but they're merely a distraction when it comes to the bigger picture.

Everton need European football every year, and we should be looking to start with the Conference League to get ourselves established, build a bigger squad capable of playing in Europe every other week and still being able to maintain a challenge in the league.

That's my hope and expectation for Everton over the next 5 to 10 years, and is also likely the same hope & expectation the club has. If we happen to win something in that time, then that's obviously a bonus but the aim must be consistent European football.

We have signed some good players this window, we have scored goals by different players. I like the team attitude that I have seen.

If Moyes had anything to do with bringing these new players in, I don't see that they were brought in to defend and capitulate. I believe we will be surprised by what this squad that he now has at his disposal will achieve.

It is not the attack that has me concerned at present, it is the defence, but if they can up their game we are in for a treat. UTFTs

I think we had this debate the other day.

It our best 4 defenders are fit and healthy, we are not too bad.

It's when they are not that it gets scary and that is why EPL football these days is all about strong squads with quality options in all positions. We don't have that at RB and probably LB. We possibly also are facing the reality of Tarks diminishing in what he offers. I think few would argue that our defence, overall, is a strength.

My own take is that I was not ecstatic to see him back. I thought we might be more ambitious (or maybe the word is creative) but the owners have their limits and I don't think it's just PSR.

Conversely, when he left, I wrote a post in the light of so many being glad to see the back of him, that if his successor(s) achieved what he did- an average position of 7-8 over a sustained period but that average distorted by one very bad season, which meant we were pretty much a top 6 club most seasons- then I would be very happy.

I never was because no-one got close for a sustained period, just brief flickers. And no-one could pretend that Moyes mark 1 had any money, it was back of a sofa time. So while I'm old enough to remember when we were seriously good, that Moyes period was the best we have had since way back when. Sad but true.

So I think he merits due credit for what he did in the past. I'm sure he would have preferred better resources. He is sort of getting them now, but not especially so. After having to spend pretty much net negative for a while, even what we have spent this window is small beer really. As Ryan (and Robert T) say, it is miles off our competition and it is manifestly true that in the long run, the gongs go to the big spenders. Unless you can be another Leicester but is that even possible anymore?

This season saw Liverpool, Man C, Arsenal. Spurs and Man Utd investing massively, but their performances so far do not match the spend. Which of those teams look dominant? I think this is looking a fairly open league this season.l as a lot of squads are in transition.

It is possible to break into the Top 6, but only sustained commercial growth over years will keep you up there. Our strategy also has to be ambitious and standards high year in and year out.

And, respectfully, setting a goal of finishing in the Top 10 this season and being a regular finisher in 6th does not represent ambition or success for TFG. I am sure that is not their strategy.

On David Moyes 2.0, I am liking what he is doing because he is showing real ambition on how he sets the team up to play. Keep it up David and everyone will back you, even if they don’t idolise you.

Long term the goals are probably harder to gauge and depend on what sort of investment TFG are willing to make. Are they happy/able to match the resources and expenditure of Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, City, etc? As you say there will always be blips like Leicester winning the league or Manchester United finishing 16th last season but for the most part, over the long term financial resources will bear a close positive correlation with success.

The reality is that we are a long, long way behind the top teams in the land and though their teams may look vulnerable in any one match or week or even season it's possible that we will never truly bridge the huge financial gap that has grown between us which history shows will dictate performance over the long term. Ambition has to reflect that reality to some degree otherwise we are all destined for perpetual disappointment (perhaps that's the nature of being an Everton fan?). For me, if we are able to get back into Europe over the next 3-4 years that would represent success. After that it remains to be seen how plausible it is for a team outside the 'SKY 6' to break the glass ceiling consistently and what sort of investment would be required to achieve that.

Optimistic for this season at the moment, but 2 tough matches coming up!

I think the Sky 6 are very well protected from the rest in terms of finances, regulations, influence and on-the-pitch decisions.

As others have said, there will be seasonal blips, but the long-term trend of dominance is very clear and will remain so unless there are some serious rule changes, especially in relation to PSR.

Realistically we are a long way off being seen as a top club, perversely not because of the investment required, but the fact that we are not allowed to spend the money required due to PSR and other financial restrictions. What allowed the elite to become elite was they generally had significant funds invested prior to restrictions or just plain ignored them anyway.

Everton, Forest and even Villa tried and were punished, whereas Man City have yet had no sanction. They are in a class of their own.

Not sure why you are saying sorry to me. There's nothing in your excellent post I'd strongly disagree with.

In the 33 seasons prior to that 13 different clubs won the league.

The spread was also more even, with only the RS being dominant with 13 titles.

Its definitely more difficult to win the league.

If you look at the Top 4 in the pre-PL compared to post, then the difference is remarkable.

Moyes Moyes Moyes sigh.

Like / dislike / fence.

My opinion of his first tenure was that he was mainly too cautious. Would never tactically attack top 6 opponents.

Rarely used subs and when he did, it was invariably too late in the game (after going behind) because he had failed to spot or stubbornly refused to hook knackered players.

Not one for more than a lone striker, he would immediately play to their weaknesses. Punting long balls from GK to strikers who are better at running at defences and anticipating clever through balls. Those winning the ball in the air were devoid of support as the others watched as if saying "yeh well done, you beat him there. Now we need to win it back "

Achingly dull in periods, not equipped for better things. The latter bring purely down to the dead one and his toxic stranglehold and preposterous transfer regime.

His end somewhat ignominious.

End of chapter no reprise

Scorpion in the pants.

I was against his return. Returns rarely, very very rarely work or bring anything other than embarrassment.

Also because of love or loath him, Thelwell. His departure leaving a non existent squad.

No way were Everton (in any fantasy)going to replace that vast chasm the previous regime left. The new regime, unable to get fully mechanised due to contracts requiring fulfilling, I didnt believe Dilly Dally David had what it took to not only get in 9 players, but quality players, just to get back to an already understaffed first team.

Pants of an academy meant the cupboard was bare.

Preseason was a floater in the pool.

We looked doomed.

However, hats off to him to then surprisingly having brought in the players he has. Quality. We are still below a squad, way below, but we have a team.

Leeds aside, we have shown some outstanding play. A hope of even better to come.

Branners injury really put a spanner in. With no resilience in defence, including the flanks, our other centre half, Obi had to fill in (Patterson proving to be top quality guff) and Myk injury prone, so Jimmy at LB meant a return of Oh No Keano. With Tarks being true to poor form at seasons start, Keane has impressed.

So, can Davey do it ?

Yes he can.

If we can drag our sorry asses to the next transfer window without a plethora of injuries and suspensions, then more additions can bring us solidity, and who knows ?

If we play as we have, and don't shit ourselves vs the rns or bottle it as is customary, this side could beat them.

Moyes has still shown his flaws. Substitutions.

Hasnt a clue or stubborn as fuck, he has made the same repeated mistakes. He claimed last press conf, he uses substitutes. Hmm. Not correctly and sometimes not at all Davey.

But so far, a whopping three games and 1 cup tie in, Leeds aside, yeh. He's proving there's life in the Old Dilly Dally yet.

COYB

You refer to his worst, which I cannot argue against, but his best was recruiting solid, hungry, hard-working pros that took us from perennial relegation candidates to perennial European qualifiers.

I wasn't enthused either about his return but at least knew he was leagues ahead of Dyche.

He'll probably secure us a decent finish this season and maybe build on it next, if he is still here. But though his glass-ceiling looms ominously above it all, it should be a sweet relief from what we've had to endure these past few years.

I don't think his subs policy will change, but with the maestros Grealish and Illy, who can't be tethered, then it does bode well.

And under Moyes, it was usually a quest for more disappointment, with perhaps only one occasion when we topped the group… or was that under Roberto?

Four consecutive years of European qualification under Moyes 1.0.

Personally, I remain grateful. Those years restored a bit of pride in being a blue. Wasn't exactly overjoyed by his return but am enjoying being proven wrong.

I think he's changed a bit too. Only a bit, perhaps, but he's surely building on all his experience since leaving (good and bad)?

Compare that with 1 time in the 11 years prior and 2 in the 11 years since. Seems a bit harsh to be being critical of him over this.

People quite naturally thought this thread was about David Moyes; it was and it wasn't. It was because we are not in the top echelons and, not unlike some of the other 16 clubs, we are trying to find a way to compete than make up the numbers.

One wonders what TFG said to him when they outlined their expectations for the future and what was expected of him…

"Your mission, should you accept it, is to qualify for Europe. Failure is not an option. If you or your team fail in this task, we will disavow you and cast you aside."

The game being played in the Premier League is not the game played in the Championship; we of a certain generation are more at peace with the type of game played there.

Fair enough — you are a lucky man you can't remember those semi-finals and there definitely wasn't anything to gain from recalling them.

He’s doing well for Everton, that Moyes, he’s doing a good job, he’s a really good manager.

So you rate him then? “Yeh” how would you feel about him managing Liverpool?

“Nah, I’m not sure about that like”

Moyes topped the Europa league Michael, and the eventual winners that came from St Petersburg, only qualified for the knockout stages because Everton beat AZ 67, in the first game of the group stages.

Going out of the competition against Fiorentina, showed our managers limitations, imo, because we definitely had the team to win that trophy, and the final would have been like a home game, with it being played in Manchester.

Moyes left us a decent team, and I’m certain he’s really improved as a manager since then, so hopefully he can deliver us a few trophies because I don’t hold the same views as most of the posters on this website, because I already believe that Everton, should be getting ready to take off again?

A different debate especially because I believe every single football club, in the world, has got some great supporters, but I don’t believe that many clubs have got as many passionate fans, as Everton, so if Moyes, can get us competing and also get his players believing, then I’m convinced that the Evertonians, will do the rest?

Whilst Man Utd would never take him back, Moyes has shown more ability as a manager than Amorim. TBF – so's my left testicle.

"Going out of the competition against Fiorentina showed our manager's limitations because we definitely had the team to win that trophy and the final would have been like a home game with it being played in Manchester."

We were absolutely robbed in that game. Dominating from start to finish and creating a hat-full of chances. What do you think Moyes should have done differently?

Fiorentina were not that good of a team, you only have to remember who knocked them out of the tournament that season to realise this.

You say that European qualification constitutes success for you but not climbing the table, which is contradictory as the latter results in the former.

I presume you mean bringing on Andy Johnson for Tony Hibbert at 1-nil down instead of shutting up shop. I always felt that was a rookie error too.

My thoughts were that it was the most stupid statement I'd ever heard. As any victory is quite clearly better.

I knew, when I heard him say that, we'd probably lose and possibly make it too hard for ourselves in the home leg. We should have won that tie, and if we'd played with any ambition at their ground, we would have.

We didn't know whether to play it tight and defend or whether to attack to try and get an away goal. When teams don't know how to approach a game and end up getting caught between two stools, then it usually only ends in defeat.

We did batter them to an extent at Goodison but, once the 90 minutes were up, I don't recall us being so dominant in extra time?

Fiorentina beat PSV, before losing to Glasgow Rangers on penalties, and both of these teams kept clean sheets in Italy.

We spoke at half-time about how Liverpool were going to throw the kitchen sink at us?

When a team is getting beaten in a semifinal, it's obvious they're going to try and throw everything at their opponents — this statement from Phillip summed up the whole David Moyes era for me.

In eleven seasons, I doubt that Everton won more than 10 games they weren't expected to win; if you take away the games at Goodison, you would be able to count those games on one hand.

The past has gone, and the only thing you can do is learn from it. Or, in the case of Moyes and Everton, argue about it!

The frustration for me with Moyes Mk 1 came not just from the failure to win something but the acceptance of that failure.

I thought we had a good enough team to win at least a cup, but the fallback position was nearly always P1AKIT.

Moyes Mk 2 does seem a lot more flexible than in his first spell. Let's hope the fear of winning doesn't hinder us if we do get a chance.

Rangers weren't that bad in 2007-08. They started off in the Champions League that season, where they began their group by beating Stuttgart at Ibrox, thrashing Lyon 3-nil away, and drawing 0-0 at home to a Barcelona team with a front three of Messi, Henry and Ronaldinho. So, they probably knew how to defend at least.

We were doing fine away… until we tried being a bit more adventurous.

I agree with you that Moyes's most glaring deficiency is his reaction to going in front. In 30 years of trying to avoid watching Liverpool, they never try and defend a lead, they always go for the second and third. Good for them.

But then they've had a long history of success which breeds good habits. We've been doing the exact opposite. I think it's going to be a long road back to developing these good habits… we had them once, 40 years ago. And even then they used to give us a hard time. It's not easy having them as the neighbours, let's face it.

Thanks for correcting me on that away goal scored by PSV, and I think that Rangers did defend for their lives for most of that game, but I never saw any adventure whatsoever out of Everton on that rain sodden night in Italy, especially after what you describe as a rookie error substitution.

This game definitely summed up Moyes to me, Grant, not the second leg at Goodison Park.

I was taking the piss with that comment about a 'rookie error'.

However, we would have been better off taking the 1-nil loss, if we could have managed to. Instead of exposing ourselves to another goal, and nearly a third with the change. We were never at the races that night and should have just limited the damage.

We had a team that could and should have beaten Fiorentina – a team which had been built by Moyes. And we beat the teams we should beat. In the 5 or 6 years before Moyes, when we averaged 15th, we didn't beat them even if we should have.

Truly top-class managers (Moyes isn't this but have we had one since Kendall Mk 1?) like Mourinho get teams to beat those they shouldn't… but not many others do – except by exception.

I try and be fair and, if I'm being honest, I enjoyed David Moyes's last season more than most. I believe we had a team that would have qualified for the Champions League that season, if only we'd had a few more players in our squad.

We started great, playing some very good football, and I'm sure we were in the top three at Christmas?

By February, we had dropped away a little bit and I remember leaving the Norwich away game feeling deflated because I thought that, once again, David Moyes was having to flog dead horses, because he just never had a big enough squad.

My biggest disappointment was that he never won any cups. Sometimes, I wish he would have rested a few players in some league games and kept them fresher to try and win more cup games.

Nobody wins without having real belief, and because the narrative at Everton was changed once Kenwright purchased the club, then I always felt that Moyes was never under any real pressure to win a trophy. This explains why I believe that the overall standards started diminishing at Everton. I believe clubs of a certain stature should always be competing to win.

Hopefully this changes soon because it's been a very long and painful quarter of a century, and definitely not befitting of our history before Boxing Day 1999.

I don't think it was a realistic expectation to go to a top four Italian club without our most influential player in the starting eleven and win.

We were doing fine until half-time, with Howard only having one worthwhile save to make. If anything, it was the perceived 'need' to be more adventurous and 'positive' in the second half that was our undoing.

Arteta was never match fit in a million years and yet was brought on anyway. We also sacrificed defensive solidity by removing Hibbert for another attacker in pursuit of an away goal that wasn't even necessary based upon the return leg outcome.

Were the Italian fans laughing when Rangers didn't even attempt to win yet beat them on penalties in the semis?

You have already given me your opinion, I just thought that for you to say that we had battered Fiorentina, and what more could Moyes, have done? Has been answered with my thoughts on the first leg, Grant, when not for the first time, David Moyes, didn't quite have a gameplan that he completely trusted, which goes back to my theory about belief.

It's been done to death, Grant, on too many occasions, so let's just hope our manager has learned. I hope he has, but until he gets us back to a certain level once again (if he's given enough time), then it simply remains to be seen.

Definition of success is about who sets the bar and stipulates how it is measured. No doubt success to many clubs is to achieve the goal of survival in the Premier League and, in honesty, that's exactly where we have been for too long.

But our ownership has changed, our manager too, a transfer kitty spent, new stadium, new sponsors... so what is the measure of a successful season to TFG? (I wish we knew!)

They must have set the bar higher than a couple of league places up the table. Europe I think would be a target. But then what is success to any of us?

The money spent given the nature of the rebuild is peanuts. Just to replace Calvert-Lewin and Doucoure cost £60M, but that doesn't mean we've had £60M improvement in the squad – it cost that just to replace the people leaving on a free.

If we had kept everyone, and then the owners had increased the budget by a £100M, then yes, you can fairly say expectations are raised. And we've bought players such as Aznou and Röhl, costing £40M rather than loaning such as Mangala and the winger, but they don't reflect improvements in the squad.

We've changed the model towards buying rather than loaning because that's a better medium term strategy. To contend that Moyes has now been backed and that there is a pressure on him as a result does not reflect what actually happened.

It was always going to cost the club a lot just to get to par, because of all the free transfers leaving, and the switch from loaning to buying.

The German, aka Merlin Röhl.

Bought or loaned?

Bought, of course.

We had the 13th highest expenditure our of 20 this summer.

Our net spend was 7th (but only because we were left with pretty much no-one to sell).

Our wage bill is 11th out of 20 - but closer to Burnley in 20th place than Newcastle in 8th.

Transfermarkt ranks us as having the 15th best squad out of 20.

To describe Moyes as being "backed" to achieve something this season ignores the fact that at least 10 other managers have been backed much more.

Christine # 191, I would have thought the hope (not objective) this season is to make Europe and / or win a cup. TFG will not "demand" that, since it's far too soon for them to reasonably expect that sort of return given the limited investment in the playing squad. The demands will come after a longer period of spending has the squad in more competitive shape.

The system is rigged, so badly skewed that only those global names with massive turnovers and profits can build teams with any sense of longevity. Either that or adopting shady accounting practices aka Chelsea and sell your own grandmother...

That's the triple plate-glass ceiling and that's why Everton, or any other Premier League club, will never make the top table in this league.

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/6144456/2025/02/19/athletic-fc-podcast-squad-cost-anchoring/

Just having a wealthy owner no longer buys you success, what good is that wealth if your not allowed to spend it?

Prior to financial restrictions, wealth bought you success, best players, trophies and hence global status, higher turnovers, higher profits. The drawbridge was then pulled up behind them.

That seems a reasonable target to me and could potentially be achieved by climbing 2 places ever season over 3 years!

If he plays well, the chances are we could lose him after one season if Man City want to cash in.

Michael and Kevin, Rohl is a loan... with a requirement to buy for £18m at the end of the season (unless we are relegated). I've read speculation that we may have been so close to the PSR ceiling that buying him outright wasn't an option.

Sam #199, makes sense to me. I expect us to have an improved goal differential this season, but given the inevitability of United and Spurs climbing up past us (you don't spend that much money and not win more games), I don't expect Top Ten for us.

But I just wanted to make sure Kevin clearly thinks he has been bought, and that Kevin has factored that error in to support his argument... which at this point I've long forgotten!