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Last Chance to Say No

By David Freel :  22/08/2007 :  Comments (26) :

Warning: anti-Kirkby propaganda contained within. If you're sick of the stadium debate, click away now!

On the off-chance that there are still some fans clutching ballot papers in their hands and agonising over which box to tick before taking advantage of their last opportunity to get it in the post, some quotes gathered from lurking on various forums and sites over the past few weeks...

I shan't attribute them to the individuals in question ? although I'm sure the Toffeeweb boys would be happy to if the authors want ? but they sum up the way I feel about the Kirkby choice.


"You don't deliver sustainable increases in attendance by pissing off a sizeable proportion of your fanbase, throwing away your heritage and fatally undermining your appeal to the next and future generation of fans in the city that is the core and bedrock of your support."


"We SHOULD be getting help from Liverpool City Council, we SHOULD be part of the City of Culture plans, we SHOULD be getting economic help in redeveloping Liverpool, after all there are still two teams in Liverpool, half the city is blue, as half the city didn't vote for this council to turn its back on us.

What we need is for the city council to talk to Everton, with the relevant engineering, civil and architectural teams, and people that can actually make financial decisions, and come up with a plan that will benefit all parties ? not everyone taking their ball home, and sitting in different rooms, and stubbornly saying everyone else is wrong, or they dont' care...

This is VITAL to HALF OF THE CITY, now and into the future. I'm not fully against the Kirkby move, if it really is the only option, but I really do think we need to apply pressure to Everton now, the vote needs to go on hold, until we get 100% independant assurance that we cannot develop this or other proposed land, before the votes are cast and we rapidly leave our beloved Goodison Park, move to Knowsley, and surrender OUR great city to Liverpool Football Club.

Everton have helped make this great city what it is. Our support has made Everton one of the greatest football clubs in the world. It is time for both Everton and Liverpool City Council and independant representatives of the Everton fans, to get together and do what is right for EFC, not current directors, politicians or councilors, but for EVERTON FOOTBALL CLUB!"


"This is what is annoying me so much. I really want to trust the Club, but the way this whole issue has been dealt with has left me completely devoid of any good will or good feeling toward them. If I was running the Club, I'd be laying all the fúcking cards on the table. This is why we're not selling up to Mr Investor, yes/no there hasn't been people interested but this is the direction we believe is the best to go, this is why Plan B won't work, this is why Kirkby IS the only option.

Here's a video of what Kirkby will look like, warts and all. Exterior of the stadium and surrounding area. These are the facilities that will be available. This is inside the ground. This is why we've gone for this design, this is why the executive boxes are going there, the stands are xft from the pitch, the aesthetics of the ground will be like this. It's a change but this is why the change has to happen.

This is what it will cost. Here's our contribution, here's how we're going to pay for our contribution. Here's who is going to be doing it. This is what they've done before. This is when work will start, this is when it will finish, this is when we will move in, this is how it will be when we move in. This is the financial package, the terms and conditions of the land that stadium will sit on. Here are the plans for the infrastructure and projected timescales and costs. This is the Kirkby proposal ? Yes or No?

Instead all we've had is Chinese Whispers, Exclusivity Periods, Pro Evo Screenshots in the middle of the night, Inconsistent & Irrelevant Information and a complete dismissal of any other ideas and refusal to answer the important questions. But for some reason they're only too happy to answer pointless questions like 'What will the stands be called?' ? in the grand scheme of things, how ####ing important is that right now?

The whole thing stinks. I understand why people will feel pressured into voting yes because we all want a glorious new stadium and a glorious future. What I can't understand is people who will vote yes without being 100% CERTAIN, and by that I mean having had ALL of the information available for their own perusal, of any FACTS. You just cannot make an informed decision if you only have some of the information. I don't know all of the ins and outs and I've been following it closely, so how can I vote yes? On the hopes/incosistent projections of Wyness and because Arteta thinks it will be cool? Sad to say, but this thing has left a sour taste in the mouth, even to the point now were animosity could creep in between factions of our own support. If they run a project as poorly as this when its only in its relative infancy, what faith can we put in them to run it once its actually in place?"


"I am biased and I don't mind admitting to a privileged background, that I could walk to the ground, that I could enjoy the pubs and banter before and after games is something I know only too well. It is something very few have had. I am also old enough to know that change is inevitable. I also know that the atmosphere the few create in and around Goodison Park is something that we are in grave danger of losing.

If Everton is the pitch, Moyes' selection and the results then moving won't mean a thing.

If Everton is the before and after, the knowing you are walking the same streets as the greats, you actually FEEL Everton from the moment you hit Walton maybe moving will mean more. If that last sentence sounds a little crass I make no apologies...

I'll qualify it and ask each and every FOOTBALL FAN why do you bother ?

Is it for hot dogs and concourses, is it so people you have never even met are able to have a 4 course meal in comfort ? Is it so we sell more merchandise ?

Or do you turn up at one of the most respected club grounds in the world to take it all in and watch Everton ?

There is no sentiment left in football ? Well, I'm sorry...there fucking should be.

I am sure that the custodians feel that Kirkby is a great opportunity. My worry is just WHO IS THE OPPORTUNITY FOR ?"


As you were...

Reader Comments

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Bill Luvvy Kenright
1   Posted 22/08/2007 at 08:38:38

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Too little too late.

Even if you did vote No. I wouldn’t tell you. Closed count.

Anyway Kirkby is closer to my London Home.

I’m a professional Scouser. So what do you expect.
Paul Gaffney
2   Posted 22/08/2007 at 07:56:35

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Great article David as it sums up what a large percentage of the support truly feel. It is true to say that all Evertonians want what is best for the club, but I believe that we are being rail-roaded to Kirkby with undue haste.We were told by Mr Wyness that as we were in a period of exclusivity with Tesco and KBC that discussions with any other interested parties would not be happening. Has this period of time now finished or is it still ongoing? Why have we no other option available if as we are led to believe by the board that they have been working 24/7 for new investment for such a long time?The ballot has had several anomalies what with some shareholder/season ticket holders getting two papers; some deceased supporters receiving papers whilst some valid season ticket holders have not received any. On contacting the ERS they have been informed that Everton had not given them their details. Some people have received only one ballot paper even though they have paid on their cards for 3 or 4 family members to have a season ticket. Anyway the result will soon be known, and I feel that while it will be close the YES vote will prevail.I and many of my friends will move to Kirkby with heavy hearts but we would watch the Blues anywhwere.I do however hope that the club will remove the frankly ludicrous "Peoples Club" markings on the new stadium as it will have a distinctly hollow ring to lots of supporters.Onwards Evertonians..
Bob Carlton
3   Posted 22/08/2007 at 09:07:38

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I presume this quote, taken from Terry Leahy’s Open Letter, refers to the period before Kirkby was identified as our itended destination, and fully explains who the opportunity is for.

?I know there has been talk of other sites. Tesco has looked at over 30 possible locations?.

Why were Tesco looking at alternative sites? Surely this should have been done by EFC as allowing Tesco to do it obviously precluded any other business partners being involved. It implies that the location of OUR CLUB would be decided by how attractive the site was for Tesco.
Neil Pearse
4   Posted 22/08/2007 at 09:25:56

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Well, if the vote goes NO, as a devoted Evertonian I really hope you guys are right, and there is another practical option in the city and a big investor in Everton willing to pay for it.

Otherwise we are well and truly fucked.
phil
5   Posted 22/08/2007 at 09:27:23

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I see the Ark Royal is,nt coming to liverpool because the terminal won,t be ready another fuck by the people who run the city and some evertonians think thay will help us build a new stadium.why o why do the proud people off such a great city put up with there incompetence.
Bootle Blue
6   Posted 22/08/2007 at 10:22:14

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The site was chosen based on Tescos ability to fit an uber-store.
There have always been two hassles with the loop:
1. Would a stadium fit? Looks to be settled as a yes, as HOK say it will (and they are a massive stadium constructor).

2. Could we afford it? That’s something Bestway and LCC are looking at and something EFC should be discussing with them.

When Leahy says the Loop wasn’t suitable, it wasn’t suitable for Tescos - however it may be suitable for Bestway et al.

Frankly the board have been abject in this; Bestway may represent pie-in-the-sky, but if they are willing to pay HOKs large consultancy fees they must think it’s a goer.
The board should recognise their enthusiasm to try and keep EFC in Liverpool and at least talk to them.

So Mr.Tesco - Kirby might suit a location for a big shop, but it’s crap for the future of EFC.

Neil Pearse
7   Posted 22/08/2007 at 11:03:00

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Bootle Blue, fair point that Tescos are acting primarily in their own interests. Although this does not mean that what benefits them might not also benefit us (as I believe it does in the case of Kirkby).

On the Loop, the fact is that WE ALREADY KNOW that if a stadium can be built on this location at all, it will be very expensive indeed (because of all the new construction for access roads etc.).

WE ALREADY KNOW that LCC are not going to offer us the land for free, and that Bestway are a relatively small company with limited financial resources and political clout.

In short: WE ALREADY KNOW that we won’t be able to afford the Loop unless a large investor comes along to fund it.

For the life of me, I can’t understand why many of you think that Bestway and the LCC might even possibly come back and say: "guys, the Loop can be built, and you guys don’t need to find much money to do so". This is not a possible scenario.

Betting on a new investor coming along to save us is one thing (then we might be able to afford the Loop). Betting on a fantasy (it won’t cost us much) is quite another.
Chris Stewart
8   Posted 22/08/2007 at 11:42:34

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I am a season ticket holder and live in the Isle of Man. I havent received a ballot paper yet. Who do I complain to???? How many others havent received theirs?
realblue
9   Posted 22/08/2007 at 12:20:12

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Chris, If you didnt receive a ballot form by the 10th you should have contacted the club.

You posted this on here today, 1 day before the count finishes!

Not very bright are we?
footiefan
10   Posted 22/08/2007 at 12:35:00

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When Leahy says the Loop wasn?t suitable, it wasn?t suitable for Tescos - however it may be suitable for Bestway et al.

bootle - its the best site, tesco know it - they would have to buy it off bestway & bestway wont sell it to them - there u go. tesco even stated that it was too expensive to buy the loop site - thereby also shattering the myth that ppl think tesco will invest big time in everton
vin bleu
11   Posted 22/08/2007 at 12:43:52

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HOK and the other consultants connected to the "Loop" project will all be contributing at risk in the hope that the scheme comes off. The rewards are such that a limited investment of time and some supporting comments to their client (Bestway), may end up in a lucrative design package. No one should be surprised or swayed if their comments promote Bestway’s ambitions - let’s not forget, like Tesco, they’re all it for the money.
True Blue
12   Posted 22/08/2007 at 13:15:50

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Have the ERS confirmed yet when the result will be announced? Do you think we will be informed before the Blackburn match?
Matt Geraghty
13   Posted 22/08/2007 at 13:25:46

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Yawn, Yawn fucking-Yawn.

Get over it, its gonna happen. Just because you won’t be going to the Wilmslow or what ever shit hole boozer you have been frequenting for the last 50 years for your pre-match routine.

Take off the blinkers.....

Vote YES
Roy P Warne
14   Posted 22/08/2007 at 13:14:23

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Neil Pearse - IF the loop is feasible, yes the infrastructure construction would probably be more than kirkby, but the asset would end up being far more valuable than krikby. Any fool should be able to understand this by simply comparing the value of land in Liverpool City Centre to kirkby greenbelt. The commercial possibilities will be far greater than Kirkby also. Again any fool should be able to see that a buisness in the city centre is far more attarctive, commercially, than a business in Kirkby. Any fool should be able to see that It therefore follows that investors would be prepared to invest more money in the loop as they will get a better return, than kirkby.

To call Bestway a relatively small company with limited resources is foolish and ignorant. They have an annual turnover in the billions and therefore must have excellent borrowing capabilities; oh and only a small detail, but they also operate in banking. Small compared to Tesco - yes, as are most firms - small to invest in a scheme worth a couple of hundred million, NO.
JL Slap
15   Posted 22/08/2007 at 14:01:14

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Yawn, fucking, yawn it may be to you Matt Geraghty you soft cunt. Have you read any literature on this Kirkby move, it doesnt add up. No CEO in the country except ours would buy this.
Dont start with all this ’take the blinkers off comment’ you dozy twat.

With something this big you soak up all the information you can, try to deal in facts & then make a decision. Mine is a no, dont you dare insult me by suggesting its cos of a pub people go before the game you prick
Simon Hughes
16   Posted 22/08/2007 at 13:52:41

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Matt, I doubt you’ve ever been to Goodison given you can’t even get the name of the pub right. Why don’t you fuck off to Kirkby now and get a good spec? At least the rest of us could enjoy the last few years at Goodison with one less arsehole.
Neil Pearse
17   Posted 22/08/2007 at 14:14:23

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Roy, first of all why do so many you NO voters have to be so unpleasant (your "any fool" comments)?

You are pointing out that the revenues from the Loop are likely to be higher than those of Kirkby. I think you are probably right given its city location. (By the way: this is what it is like to argue with respect rather than with abuse.)

I was pointing out that the COSTS of the Loop (certainly to Everton) will be much higher than those of Kirkby. And that indeed we could not afford them without a major rich new investor - which we do not have. The fact that ultimately the Loop would have a higher real estate value than Kirkby is pretty irrelevant if we can’t afford to build it in the first place.
Neil Pearse
18   Posted 22/08/2007 at 14:21:58

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By the way Roy, "any fool" would certainly not see that the Loop would necessarily have a higher RETURN than Kirkby.

Commercial return is a function of the relationship between revenues and costs. The fact that the Loop would have higher revenues than Kirkby does not mean that it would have a higher return than Kirkby, or that investors would be willing to put more money in. It all depends on the costs.

Given the likely exorbitant costs of the Loop, I would actually suspect that the Kirkby investment would have a higher return. Why perhaps Tesco are willing to make the Kirkby investment, and no-one is yet willing to make an investment in the Loop.
Chris Stewart
19   Posted 22/08/2007 at 15:58:24

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Cheers for your help realblue, very inciteful. I would have thought it wouldnt be too hard for the club have some element of database management.
Matt Geraghty
20   Posted 22/08/2007 at 17:21:50

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JP & Simon,
Thanks for the personal insults, it gives your argument real credibility.
Prick , arsehole... quality.

P.S Simon, Got a season ticket and a vote!
maggie
21   Posted 22/08/2007 at 19:43:10

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if you pick Kirky the bloody town centre will die off too as tesco will suck everyone out of town
Dave C
22   Posted 22/08/2007 at 20:41:25

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Matt Geraghty

so all no voters drink in the wimslow "or some other shit hole" ?

Dont you get it ? to some of us footy isnt only 90 mins, its the whole day, the anticipation, the meeting up with your fellow blues to marvell - but usually moan about our last performance.
Trust me if ever you get any mates they’ll want to do the same
One more thing there is a wimslow in every village, town and city even Kirkby !
Kinda blows your argument dunnit
Tom Hughes
23   Posted 22/08/2007 at 22:11:37

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Dave C and Matt...... but where’s the Wilmslow in Walton? Or is it only Yozzers who know this?
Karl Masters
24   Posted 23/08/2007 at 00:25:31

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Thank you, Dave.

You very neatly expose the lack of real information on which to make a decision. I have voted No because I don’t feel Kirkby is anything like compelling enough. Re-locating a British big city club on the outskirts of a city is unprecedented and therefore highly dangerous strategy and yet the Club have very little to back it up with in terms of sensible facts.

When Wyness says there are 4 million people living within 45 mins of the new stadium he forgets about 12 football clubs and 6 Rugbby League clubs who are closer to most of these people than Everton!! It’s this sort of ill thought out nonsense that means I can’t trust his judgement and therefore draw my own conclusions and Vote No.
Matt Geraghty
25   Posted 23/08/2007 at 09:36:37

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Dave C...

Nail, head, bang!!

Heaven forbid we disturb anyones pre-match routine.
It makes me piss that people are basing their vote on where they go for a bevvy before or after the match.
Can you not see the bigger picture?
jayharris
26   Posted 23/08/2007 at 15:38:14

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Bestway and LCC are well aware of the Kirkby deal and that EFC have next to no money so why do you think they are investing substantial amounts of time and effort into the loop site.
Because like a lot of us they believe that this location is ideal for EFC and the commercial attractions that would bring.THis is not just about TESCO its about the history and culture of EFC and its fans.I am honestly over the whole thing now but if Bullshit Billy and Non scouse Bully take us to KIrkby without looking at the other possibilities I will never forgive them.
For all you yes voters just for a minute consider that if the council were to grant a 199 year lease on the land at the same rent as Kirkby and other commercial investors contributed to the scheme the overall return short and long term could be better than Kirkby.I think we have let Tesco lead this because of laziness on the part of Wyness and Kenwright (who has been looking for an investor 24/7 for the last 5 years - right??)neither of whom can give the time or effort to this key project.

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