Or Take On Solutions For All
When Black Friday came I, like many, already knew the result the night before despite the official site saying the result would be published at 10:30 in the morning because it was leaked to Sky Sports News. By whom? Does it matter now?
From the offset, when the ballot procedure was declared, many Evertonians shouted out ?unfair and undemocratic?, especially KEIOC. I myself will never accept that the 12,000 walk-ups who are inundated with mobile phone deals, car loans, etc. direct from Everton or a third party could not receive a ballot form to that same address. The People?s Club handicapped some of our fans in this vote by their finances.
We all know that if you buy a ticket on a weekly basis the decent people at the box office ask for your postal code, it?s passed on for that new phone but not a life-changing (to many) ballot paper. I wonder why? Is it because most of these fans are local, and have deeper roots to the area than maybe a fan from out of town in Evertonia? I know of Mancs who got ballot forms and, most probably, reds paying the twenty quid to acquire a ticket in our home ends.
The 11,000 non-returned votes were bizarre and stuck out. Evertonians are more passionate and knowledgeable, we're led to believe... so why did this happen? Was it that they did not get the ballot paper or are so fed up of the club's promises and spin that they thought, "why bother, it?s a done deal anyway?" I know loads that didn't get a ballot paper but qualified and when trying to acquire one it was like the Crystal Maze.
One lad made twenty phone-calls plus e.mails to Everton and the ERS to get his family ballot papers (he was told by the Head of Communications at the club that one family was allowed one vote when paying together). Would many fans do the same ? and remember the phones were down for a long period at Everton. He was misinformed that one family gets one vote if paid altogether but others did get multiple votes.
I got two more votes than I should have being a shareholder and one sent to me at another address. Sadly one of my mate's mum got a vote sent for his late Dad of three years despite my mate telling the club on numerous occasions he has passed away. Maybe these are small exceptions but how will we ever know the full magnatude? I?m not suggesting for one minute that the ERS would do anything underhand ? they are too respected ? but can only work on the data given.
I know a friend of mine offered to sort out Everton?s database with his manager of IT free of charge a few months ago. Everton declined at the last minute. The database of our walk-ups was not reliable, we were told.
No one can say the result was a clear mandate to move, it was more worrying to a business built on customers than a victory to march on without real concerns for the future fan base. If the move was right and good enough for all then there would be no need to vote in the first place and cause all the infighting.
More spin than a washing machine
You can?t help but think that many of our fans where misinformed, fed up of empty promises or duped to a large extent (well it must be true, it?s in the local papers). Lord Haw-Haw would have approved the spin that came from the local media and the People's Club. Do you want examples to back this up? Well here goes:
- Goodison Park is falling down. If we stay here, playing Marine awaits us.
Do we really want to play in the shadow of LFC?s new stadium?
We need loads of corporate boxes to compete with the top clubs
Do we really believe the above? ? plus we don?t sell out the corporate now but for two games a season.
- Goodison Park CANNOT be redeveloped. If it could we would only have a ground capacity of 28,000 to 34,000. Bring all the plans you want but bring your business plan first.
This is a deal of a lifetime, if we miss this opportunity we're doomed, I tell yer, doomed.
KSS, the architects for the new Kirby stadium dismissed Tom Hughes's painstaking plans to re-develop Goodison on five counts in five minutes, it seems.
So Terry Ward and Terry Skempton, both renowned architects, don?t know what they are talking about? Tom Hughes made the KSS comment-maker eat humble pie over his remarks. This fellow Evertonian should have been brought in by the club for discussion ? not pilloried in public. For shame.
- The Loop is just too small and can?t possibly work, it?s a white rabbit pulled out of the hat by that nasty council who have not talked to us in months. The business plan does not stack up. Grosvenor have objected.
Well HOK says it can work (Google HOK engineering) and Grosvenor have not objected (to my knowledge). There was no business plan at the time, like Kirkby
- Players were wheeled out who are heroes to the eligible voting kids to endorse the new stadium in Kirkby, even Moyes alluding to it.
- Britain?s premier CEO of Tesco with a front-page banner headline telling us to vote with our head not our heart. Oh, and I?m a Blue to boot.
Is there not a blatant conflict of interest here from Tesco Terry? Was Everton losing the vote war and they had to bring in the big gun?
When you speak to fans who voted yes and giving their reasons when asked why many replied with the following:
- Our debts will be wiped out and Moyes will have at least £10M more a year to spend on players. Remember we only bought Jags at the time. It?s the only way out there?s nothing else. Tesco?s are paying for it, it?s a free stadium big Keith told us!
- It's going to be a new start in a world-class stadium (well Big Keith did tell us that in the beginning) and we can compete with the top four.
- It?s going to be even better than Cologne's stadium. Goodison can?t be developed and that LCC hate us so we're going where we are wanted. I mean the reds got planning permission for the Stanley Park and when we asked we were knocked back by the red council. At Goodison the toilets are crap (no hot water), as is the service at the bar with warm beer and those posts get in our way now.
- Terry Leahy is a boss Evertonian and is using Tesco to make us millions.
If Terry tells us its good for Everton then it must be ? how can we doubt this man, who lives in Potters Bar? Have you seen Tesco?s profits ?
All the above caused much anger to those who do not want to go to Kirkby but to stay near to the City centre. In fact St Helens town centre is nearer to Kirkby than our city centre now.
Fans who saw a different view from the above felt bullied and frustrated by the amount of coverage the club's spin got and its allies to their own ends. Bringing in star players and the manager to sway the vote was seen to be below the belt. The amount of space for pro-Kirkby information was there for all to see. Like Bill said about Big Keith, he is already on the train to Kirkby, it?s a done deal it seems.
When fans took the time to look into Big Keith?s background it was found this Aberdonian tried to move even his own club out of town to make way for apartments. The Dons fans rejected this. He never stays more than three years in any job and moves on. But to be fair his task was to get Everton a new ground; where it was to be was not emotional to him, only financial, and there must be a big bonus in getting that move to anywhere for him.
In recent years, we perceive our club as being perennially skint and have to juggle sales and acquisitions. I think up until the Yakubu deal we had only spent something like £3.8M net each year in the last seven years at a time when the Premiership has been awash with money. So this promised £10M extra to spend at Kirkby each season was a big lure to many. But, again, where are the facts on this? Where is anything of hard substance on Kirkby? They were all in the main just promises and even they had the goalposts moved each week when more searching questions where asked.
So to the ?no? voters I ask: Don?t give the ?yes? voters a hard time when challenged, respect their view; but I also ask the same of the yes voters not say to the no voters ?let it go?. They care deeply too much about the long-term future of our club. In a nutshell, if the Yes voters had lost on Black Friday would they have felt the same way as the No voters and the thousands of walk up fans (every game home and away for many) who I bet would have mostly said No?
I know our hardcore and they will fight back against this move in their own way, for many I know will not go to Kirkby or buy a season ticket again. They feel betrayed by Bill and, to a degree, the LCC.
I ask the 'no' voters to use that anger and frustration and implore the LCC and Everton Board to get a viable, deliverable (I hate that word now along with "exclusivity", "due diligence" and "ring-fenced" ? that?s our custodians for you) alternative to Kirkby before apathy comes in and then the saddest end for an Evertonian: abandonment through the sheer hopelessness of it all and the way football has gone in general outside the top four. (Put that phrase ?top four? also in the words I hate box now.)
Many that Friday felt that our club had finally gone from them and the fat cats were licking their paws laughing at us at how easy it was with more than a little help from their friends. Terry Leahy wants us at Kirkby for his company's sake first and, if believed, so does Philip Green for BHS and Next stores or whatever else on the retail site. A white elephant stadium in years to come in Kirkby will mean less disruption to their shoppers.
The ?yes? voters are now sadly pigeonholed by many as sheep, lemmings etc. That?s a bit unfair ? like I said before, you can only see and vote on the hype in front of you and the way our club's impending fate was portrayed if we never took the Kirkby way out. We would get left behind was the main message. Scaremongering was not on, Bill, you should not have done this.
But it's the high-profile 'yes' voters are the ones that I can?t stomach. They came across as if they had hidden agendas and preached in a subservient manner. Get the information on their background and you will see what I mean, it was for self gain or their company?s gain. The same with KEIOC. I don?t want them to be perceived as like the justice-for-fathers group in the coming months when all they have done was to ask certain questions, get the main players in this subject be made more accountable and had to go on the street to the fans to get the message across that there could be better options.
Bill from the People's Club would not meet them lately, why? The communications guy from Everton sent the chair of KEIOC nasty texts and shouted down the phone to him. Why? KEIOC's Achilles heel was not being able to show how to fund their alternatives. Now that?s funny when you consider the concrete information on Kirkby. The club should have embraced these ideas, explored them fully not jest at them. Never forget who gets paid for their endeavours in all this...
At a time when we have the best team in many a year with European football beckoning we find a divided fan base like never before. And who did this?
By giving the vote it was a calculated agenda not a gamble. Given the media, high profile acts and selective vote, Bill and Co knew they were onto a winner. KEIOC came across like in the film Zulu, wave after wave of pro-Kirkby media came at them, they tried to shoot back but fired blanks in the space that should have been provided but never was balanced.
I thought more of our local media and, with the exception of Radio Merseyside, they did not disappoint the sceptics. I was told I was foolish to expect anything else.
I?m disappointed in certain journalists of whom I thought better but they have mortgages to pay and families and, after all, business is business. I?ll scratch your back, you scratch mine with scoops, interviews and releases.
I must say that the Red journalist, Tony Barrett, has been a star in the last few weeks on two different counts. It took a good Red to shout out for us about leaving our roots. Let?s face it, we're just fans not long-term business associates. I thought our media had a moral duty to see fair play was to be seen in this Presidential election-type ballot. I also believe in Father Christmas.
But let?s have a truce, eh? Let?s stop the civil war with the fanbase being ripped apart. How about our club promise not to sign any irrevocable documents for Kirkby (in public), for at least twelve months. What?s the hurry? Tesco need us for Kirkby but what I can?t figure is why they don?t do a similar deal at Project Jennifer or somewhere else nearer the city centre where we all agree on. I even suggested to Terry Leahy to buy the Bestway site and put the Tesco store proposed on there, put Everton?s new stadium on the original site proposed for the store. Ask Louise Ellerman and the LCC for more land around project Jennifer to make it work. Give the Kirkby people a leisure building they want and have an input, in that way Tesco still get the free land and everyone wins Where there?s a will there is a way.
Let's give Bestway a proper chance to come up with a business plan and funding ? its only fair to them and Evertonians. You can?t expect them to stab at figures. Remember we have not seen any figures for Kirkby after 18 months or a detailed plan of the proposed stadium.
Let?s get off Warren Bradley?s back and LCC and help them with suggestions of sites and how to fund them .But give them set deadlines.
And ask for monthly updates. Joe Anderson has been very good in trying for alternatives and will work with Warren for the club's sake. We need these people to stay focused. I still can?t believe they way our CEO basically told LCC to get lost many times. Why? If Kirkby fails we will need the help of LCC. Would you blame LCC now if they told Everton to get lost if Kirkby fails? Our CEO must feel Kirkby is nailed on to be so bullish or foolish.
This move to Evertonians is too important to be rushed; the San Andrean fault line is not directly underneath Goodison ? honest! It won?t fall down just now. If Fratton Park, Fulham, Blackburn and St Andrews in parts can get Health and Safety certificates I?m sure ours can for a while until we do the right thing.
Meanwhile, at Goodison, put adequate staff on our food and drinks bars. Maintain the toilets better and chase Oliver Twist away and get some hot water. We're in Walton not a third world country. Our stadium has been neglected for years like the business side of Everton.
Build the team a bit more then build a suitable cathedral to the faith that is Everton. We had 33,000 at home the other week, why is that? I know we need to do something about the ground issue. I was going to hire a JCB to dig the footings for the Kings Dock so those of us who voted No are not all Luddites.
Anyone who went to the Reebok last Saturday will realise that that?s not Everton ? the setting, the whole match-day experience. I wish I could have taken a large proportion of the fans who voted for Kirkby to this location to see for themselves what could lie ahead for us. We will be the biggest club to prostitute ourselves to a retail park. We're going from a city to a town. Think about it all, please, and get motivated to ask the club for solid commitments to this move. We should ask the following as you would if you were getting your own new house built:
- The true debt will we incur and carry over from Goodison for the Kirkby project and who pays for the over run of the project?
- The spec of the stadium were getting in detail.
- The major transport issues of the location, how will they be resolved?
- The loss of fans predicted and the marketing shown from the satellite towns of the new fans that will come. The same with the corporate, the reason were going apparently, what are the figures of marketing done to date to show the commitment of the new corporate business?
- The business plan that clearly shows how we generate all this extra money promised for transfers. What average attendance gives us that extra ten million?
If the above can?t be answered on record soon then why?
To Bill, consider selling the club to a consortium that will put money in now (£20M would start the Park End re-development. Remember the Holt End was built in one summer in the main), accept the same money as Paul Gregg did and perhaps a bit more. Be remembered in a far more benevolent way. You can?t run Everton this way anymore, Bill borrowing all the time and selling assets. We need an injection of investment for the first time in years. Trevor Birch advised similar. David Moores stepped aside for the injection of monies for a new stadium and signings, why can?t Bill then?
Told you I believe in Father Christmas, Bill won?t let go for the betterment of Everton. The Kings Dock proved this with Paul Gregg?s reverse mortgage deal which truly was the deal of the century.
I know Bill puts on a show called Blood Brothers about a family who moved to Skemersdale but their troubles moved with them. Will the Board carry on taking on debt after debt in Kirkby? Or sell out?
Let's face it, our debt now of approx £45M will be added to the £80M we will need to build this stadium. That?s a hell of a lot of debt to service with half a fanbase unsure that they will prop up this Board with the way they follow Everton now.
Get the Merseyside MP?s around a table with Andy Burnham, Terry Leahy, high ranking LCC officials, John Woods and Bill? This needs doing as soon as possible if not why not?
Let?s get back to enjoying this best team in years instead of worrying after the game's gone, "where will I be in five years and do I follow Everton the same way I do now?" We deserve to see the better football served up with this well-assembled team and players that could give us a brighter exiting future of watching Everton.
Turn your anger into asking for alternatives to Kirkby, don?t let apathy get to you on this subject as it will not go away and don?t abandon our team just yet whilst there is hope to stop the madness (to me) of Kirkby.
If ? and I hope too God it does not happen ? Wyness signs our sentence to Kirkby then it's personal to you to decide what you want to do regarding supporting the club anymore. To many, it won?t be Everton anymore but KFC. I, for one, won?t ever say you were not a true Evertonian for not going to support Everton at Kirkby. I know too many great Evertonians who care too much about the subject and will feel betrayed by leaving this vibrant growing city and will never accept it was for the long term good of Everton, but just for individuals. This vote was life-changing to many.
Go to the meeting at the Casa on Saturday by the Philharmonic pub (12:30pm) and give your support with ideas and the will to bring the fans together again. We need to find a way of healing these wounds of our ripped-apart fan base. The only recipe for this is a ground that most of the fan base will agree on. See for yourself if Bestway have moved on from their initial plans and images and listen to people who might find a way of bringing us together again.
ps: Do you think our fan base is now battle-weary of off-the-field matters in particular? Like an old boxer after too many fights against relegation, takeovers and ground moves? Saturday?s attendance at the Casa may prove this. Do we really care about the long term future of our club anymore? Or not as much as we would like to think?
Anger, apathy then abandonment of the boxing ring in which Evertonians seem to always find themselves, sadly. Flame away!
Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer
1 Posted 07/09/2007 at 18:54:01
2 Posted 07/09/2007 at 19:01:12
As always straight from the heart and well worded, a great piece of work, and as always the truth !!!
3 Posted 07/09/2007 at 19:07:47
I am with you all the way mate, the thing is the decision to allow Everton to proceed with Tesco and Knowsley has been approved by a majority of fans so I feel that going over ground that we have covered many times before is only making us go around in circles.
I voted NO, and I am absolutely gutted about the decision to proceed with negotiations, but I truly believe that there is still hope for us staying in the city if
we can pull some sort of order to our argument. I admire KEIOC for their efforts but I have been left cringing by some of the methods they have used to get their message across. If we had a more balanced view on things and actually worked towards a feasable alternative to Kirkby presented in a coreect manner then It would stand us in much better stead.
Colin Fitz should form a splinter group in my opinion!
4 Posted 07/09/2007 at 19:01:33
Obvoiusly all of us who voted yes have been..Misled,Brainwashed,lied to.or are obviously just not quite as intelligent as Mr Mcdonald and co.
The facts were presented, the people made a choice..
Q. Would you support the club rellocating to Kirkby...The answer was yes..
We were not asked about plan B.C or D because they were not in existence...Q. will you support the club rellocating to the Kings dock...Answer yes...again ..no plan B.C..etc..for the same reason..
We are a football club..and we are a buisness..The people that run the buisiness have made a buisiness decision..they even had the decency to ask their customers opinion on it..and gave those customers the reasons(you may call it spin) that they believed we should move..
I personally did not take much notice of the hype ,name calling and infighting when it came to making my decision.I looked at the facts...and I answered the question I was asked.
I was not asked would you prefer to A)move to kirby...or..B)Have a new stadium close to liverpool city centre that will put all other stadia to shame..with spectacular views of the city from its multistorey state of the art hotel.
I may have answered B) ..but B does not yet exist..If it did.. whatever option B may be..option A may still be my answer..
But I and I suspect everybody else will be able to make up their own mind...hopefully without being villified for it.
5 Posted 07/09/2007 at 19:17:00
I carefully considered all the arguments and the data, was not duped by anyone, and in the end decided to vote YES because on balance I thought it was in the best interests of the club I have loved since I can remember loving anything.
Got it yet?
6 Posted 07/09/2007 at 19:28:18
7 Posted 07/09/2007 at 19:44:23
As a yes voter from Anfield I considered all the pro’s and con’s including the fact I won’t be able to walk to the match anymore - I then voted with my head for the move - along with 60% other blues that cared enough about the issue to vote. Get over it.
8 Posted 07/09/2007 at 19:51:10
9 Posted 07/09/2007 at 19:59:32
10 Posted 07/09/2007 at 19:54:01
11 Posted 07/09/2007 at 19:56:14
Come to think of it,on second thoughts Dave Reade might be right,the half empty Tescodome could well spell the end of a glorious story not that those responsible (I don’t mean the yes voters) with their pockets well lined will give a toss.
12 Posted 07/09/2007 at 20:49:26
13 Posted 07/09/2007 at 20:44:03
It would be nice if NO voters would do the same, but, personally, I have lost hope.
Ian’s article is a joke. In case he doesn’t get it, his message to YES voters is: you were idiots who fell for the lies of the club, and have betrayed the true Everton faith - but, hey, let’s all get together now.
I also wish that we could heal the divides. But first the NO voters will have to start treating the YES voters with some respect. (There were 15,000 of us after all.) Ian’s succession of insults is not a good start.
14 Posted 07/09/2007 at 21:02:15
KEIOC PUBLIC MEETING 30/08/07
Following the results of the ballot KEIOC will be holding an open public meeting in the Function Room at The Casa on Hope St at 12:30pm on Saturday 8th September 2007.
This is a must for every Evertonian who voted NO to Kirkby. This is a monumental crossroads in the future of Everton Football Club and concerned fans are urged to attend and make their voices heard.
The move to Kirkby is far from a done deal
15 Posted 07/09/2007 at 20:55:25
An interesting article you have written. I am not sure about anything new being laid at our feet but nevertheless I applaud your tenacity. I do hope that the no voters and KEIOC do keep campaigning toget Everton a city stadium and I am sure if there was a vote for a choice to stay in the city you would get a near 100% majority. But the fact remains a vote was taken more people voted for the move and the abstentions cannot be taken as a no vote but as a vote to say they will go with the majority. I am sure you can do the math.
If KEIOC manage to achieve what seems an impossible task I for one will applaud them. If Bestway come up with te deal of the millenium I will applaud that. I will also ensure that I get my season ticket wherever we are. LIverpool city centre great. Kirkby and a better business great. One thing is clear division in the ranks aint a way for a club to go we need to pull together for the club.
16 Posted 07/09/2007 at 21:14:00
Bill "should consider selling the club to a consortium". The old idea that Bill has been somehow stopping someone else from buying the club. Don’t you read the newspapers Ian? Most clubs are taken over by HOSTILE buyers who are not ’invited in’ by the current owners, but who publicly make offers for clubs and force a sale (or make an offer that is too good for the current owner to refuse).
There have been no such offers for Everton. This is not because Bill has prevented them. How could he? This is because there have been no offers.
Of course, Ian, this does not suit your ’stupid YES voters / evil club’ story. But, why let reality get in the way of your argument?
17 Posted 07/09/2007 at 21:22:17
Applause indeed if they can come up with the ’deal of the millenium’, do you realise that Bestway are only a small cash ’n carry and simply not in the same stratosphere financially as the evertonian-led monster that is Tesco? Get real.
Just a point on the often mentioned HOK involvement with the small cash ’n carry - HOK to this day have NEVER made any statement regarding any potential ’loop’ development, I repeat NEVER, not on their website or actual real quotes anywhere from a representative of HOK. "But...but..but they released an 18-page document a few days before the vote closed didn’t they?" - If they did then why haven’t we seen it yet? Why isn’t it sitting proudly on the KEIOC site with a link to it from Toffeeweb as it has allegedly existed for nigh on 3 weeks now - is it that difficult to put a pdf file together for it? Is it because it doesn’t exist? Well I never...
18 Posted 07/09/2007 at 21:38:00
19 Posted 07/09/2007 at 21:38:02
Hostile takeovers are normally of PLC’s not private companies. A private company such as Everton do not have to accept any bid to buy us out irrespective of how big it is if the owner doesnt want to sell.
20 Posted 07/09/2007 at 21:34:31
You voted yes and you keep saying lets move on, but you keep trying to justify your vote by posting every time the debate comes up
Uneasy Mate ?
Dress it up all you want but you people who are drooling over the prospect of 60,000 seater are going to have to fill it with 15,000 people willing to go
Sorry I forgot, we’re going to magic up 30,000 new supporters from our new catchment area. Removing 3 noughts from that figure and it still smacks of blind optimism
21 Posted 07/09/2007 at 21:46:23
And - please! - don’t repeat again the irrelevance about the exclusivity period. There was NOTHING AT ALL to have prevented them coming up with this proposal months earlier.
Neversaydie? We will all be dead if we have to wait for these folks.
22 Posted 07/09/2007 at 21:54:31
I have resepect for all either no or yes voters for whatever their reasons, but Kirkby is going to happen, unless the government get involved. Lets get behind the move, get the club moving on and forget about LCC’s false hopes.
The deal was already a ’done deal’ and if you foolishly thought otherwise then wake up and smell the coffee.
Let’s get chatting about the future and whats going on on the pitch.
We all know BK is in favour of the move to Kirkby to sell the club on with a new stadium but maybe we should be thanking him for taking us this far and as I have previously stated think he deserves a little(big?) profit for steadying the sinking ship until a sugar daddy comes along.
p.s. Please lets get back to talikng footbal and not if whats............................................................
23 Posted 07/09/2007 at 21:57:44
We’ll see ,if I was a betting man I think we will be still in this city in five years but maybe in the Park!Is it so wrong to search high and low for a workable alternative for the sake of our future?
If fans can’t see the damage done to the fan base then I can’t help that.And yes anyone who touched on this division as us and them thats a fact ,ask around in the pubs ,schools and workplaces.Our club dooes not have a decisive future in Kirkby its a hell of a gamble ,are you prepared to take that risk.If so why and is it worth it?
24 Posted 07/09/2007 at 21:42:44
We must not let this die.
To all the yes voters please stop knocking the "No" or "unable to vote" voters for expressing their feelings on this site.
This was not a landslide majority vote.In fact out of 33,000 (we were originally told it was 38,000 and therefore representative of Everton’s average support)only 15000 voted yes.I know we dont know how many of the 10000 would have voted no but THEY DID NOT VOTE YES.
If this was a parliamentary vote there would be a hung party which is why there is so much anti kirkby feeling about.
If you are a true Evertonian (and I have followed them in virtually every home game and many away since 1960)you know this Kirkby deal does not feel right smell right nor look right.
Do not knock us for feeling this way but look at our reasoning which is laid out better than I can put it on Colin Fitz and Ian mac’s contributions.
25 Posted 07/09/2007 at 22:26:13
26 Posted 07/09/2007 at 22:43:21
27 Posted 07/09/2007 at 22:09:00
1/ Our 55,000 seater stadium has now become a 50,000 seater. Was it because we now have wide open corners on the design which is very different to the Cologne one.
2/ What average attendance the club will need to generate the £10m extra spare cash for transfers every season
3/ If the Car Park can only hold 1000 cars and we suppose a 45,000 attendance, how the 40,000 or so others are expected to arrive and leave. Even if you assumed that 10,000 people managed to park somewhere else in Kirkby ( and that’s being optimistic ) are the other 30,000 expected to arrive on buses and trains? Much has been made of being by a motorway, but travelling by car is going to be no good if you cannot park near the stadium.
4/ It seems after much questioning, Keith Wyness thinks the true value of construction will be around £75m ( although somehow the project will only pay £50m for it ). My question is what kind of quality will £75m really get us? It sound like a massive amount. But others have spent far more on construction alone ( eg Arsenal ) for only a few thousand more seats. £75m won’t go that far. The Hilton Hotel in New York just spent roughly that amount on a re-fit and the results aren’t overly impressive.
THese are just some concerns I have. I would love to be proved wrong, but I have this gut feeling that in 5 year’s time we will be wondering why we accepted a short term, second rate fix and the numbers on people’s lips will be the bonus that the recently departed Keith Wyness picked up for delivering the ’impossible move’ that Bill Kenwright hired him to do.
I know it sound cynical, and like I say, I really hope I am proved wrong, but this move just seems to be an enormous gamble and in big business there is always somebody pulling the strings somewhere, usually with personal greed in their sights. If anyone can answer the above questions, please do.
28 Posted 07/09/2007 at 22:31:13
29 Posted 07/09/2007 at 22:12:21
30 Posted 07/09/2007 at 22:55:22
31 Posted 07/09/2007 at 23:01:31
You’re talking about a fella who has been to more places supporting Everton than you have had hot dinners.....
you don’t even know the name of the pub outside our ground!!!
32 Posted 07/09/2007 at 22:43:03
the yes voters want to move on - they feel they have won, they understandably feel, no point in endlessly covering old ground
The no voters want to continue the debate - they find it inconcievable that anyone would vote yes
Ask yourselves this, you’ve voted yes, but there enormous empty spaces in the ground, you try to tell yourselves it wont happen, but deep down you know if we go to kirkby it will, how long before even the yes voters start to stay away ? is this really whats best for our club ?
Alternatively you voted no, you see the attendances in the Echo and smile to yourself thinking " told you so" our club descends into terminal decline, can you still turn your back ? when we slip into wednesday/Leeds/ Forrest/ land how hollow will "I told you so" sound then ?
The outcome is totally unsatisfactory and I can see only loosers, us
Please dont spout blind optimism " they’ll come round " you know they wont, they tell you SO, every day
Please tell me where anyone wins from our current situation ?
only by uniting can we survive and even the most determined yes voter must concede, Kirkby not only encourages division, it guarentees it
33 Posted 07/09/2007 at 23:13:08
34 Posted 07/09/2007 at 23:14:51
It’s all very well for people to say it’s a limited company, they don’t have to tell you. That’s true and no other business would give its customers a vote. On the other hand no other business relies on blind loyalty, people travelling hundreds of miles to purchase a product of unguaranteeable quality and knows its customers wouldn’t dream of using its nearest competitor. Football is a unique business in that way.
That is why so many people can’t just ’get over it’ because we feel we haven’t been given ALL the facts and the vote is nothing like the landslide required to convince the doubters this is the right move. If 75% had said Yes and only a thousand or two had not voted, maybe some of us would think that ’ it must be me - I’m missing something’ but if the majority is that small after the Club’s best efforts at hype with no other options on the table, some of us cannot agree it’s all over.
35 Posted 07/09/2007 at 23:28:06
36 Posted 07/09/2007 at 23:43:07
If we do end up in Kirkby I cannot understand those so called fans who say they will not support the team there - are we not the fans who will travel all over the country (and the world for Gods sake)to support the Blues. Threats or promises not to go to Kirkby just don’t seem right to me.
I understand the strength of feeling on both sides but when the final decision is made I for one will follow the Blues there, wherever there happens to be.
37 Posted 08/09/2007 at 09:46:27
Division of the fans is going to be the beginning of the end for us.
Without compromise on either side I cannot see how any of us can benefit.
38 Posted 08/09/2007 at 09:41:01
PS: We should have a better idea after the Man U match how this season will pan out
39 Posted 08/09/2007 at 11:02:37
And at least it does’t pretend to be a unity article (Hi Colin), and go on to insult all the yes voters.
Face one inpalitable fact. The vote was to continue discussion with Kirkby. For all the hype that’s all it was.
I support the idea of talking to Bestway - the only difference I have with Ian is that I am happy to accept the best deal for Everton, whether that be Bestways or Kirkby.
What I don’t want Everton to do is continue a forlorne search for a proverbial promised ground move which continually ends in nothing to the point where our safety certificate is really in danger of not being renewed.
We can re-develop Goodison, if someone will pay for it - but I think that this boat is sailing away.
Let someone write a proper article that seeks to bring the fans together rather than each side seeing the other as stupid.
40 Posted 08/09/2007 at 10:21:32
Of course the move happens to be over an arbitary line.. but this line is a boundry ... a demarcation of Liverpool and Knowsley... I genuinely think that if the ’line was moved’ the reception to the project would be a lot more positive.
The Berlin Wall, Hadrians wall, North & South Korea ... all famous borders yet the land one side is simply no different to that on the other... but I am afraid that peoples perceptions certainly are!
Opinions are influenced by location - does a small town = small club? - I don’t know, I am not trying to preach to anyone here, I am just concerned for the club .. I know everyone is on both sides of the fence.
I think we must consider that the media are obsessed with Liverpool FC - something I think all Evertonians AGREE ON...try buying an Everton shirt from an outlet outside of north-west of England. With the LFC move and ours happening at the same time ..what will these changes do to the profile of OUR club, will it give us more positive column inches... I know ’we don’t care what the RS say’ but future generations will be influenced by the media in increasingly massive numbers... You know the ’one city - one name - one club’ stuff will be rammed down everyones throats (not just those of Evertonians).
Will Everton eventually become percieved in the same light as Blackburn, Wigan, Bolton .. PNE, Burnley...? I am not in a position to influence this so I really don’t know.. What I do know is that we are a MASSIVE club, the 5th most successful club in the history of English football.. that we have a large fanbase right on the doorstep and that we are close to pushing for honours again...by the time we move we could have already built a side that is winning things again...building new revenue streams worldwide on that success and our identity as the ’top side in Liverpool’. Should we really present the media with the opportunity to obfuscate facts with phrases such as ’the Kirkby based club’...? I am certain that we are big enough and of sufficient profile NOW to attract the investment we need .. if only the club would covet it!
41 Posted 08/09/2007 at 12:36:27
42 Posted 08/09/2007 at 13:16:50
43 Posted 08/09/2007 at 15:51:44
What guarantee’s do you have that we will be a richer and more succesful club.
Listen and listen well. You are moving for a handfull of promises.
No-one has guaranteed you anything at all.
At least the NO voters are trying to come up with an alternative strategy, you lot are just accepting the promises from people who have mismanaged the club for years.
Goodison is delapdated because they have let it get that way.
They have not given a flying fuck for the place or the fans for that matter, why would they change the way they think now ?
We all know something has to be done, but to move for promises handed out by proven liars is plain madness.
Show me the proof of the riches they promise. because we have been shafted by them once to often for me to believe anything they say.
44 Posted 08/09/2007 at 16:22:30
45 Posted 08/09/2007 at 17:12:42
Where is the proof that your numbers add up ?
You are moving for promises. Nothing more, nothing less. Kirkby you can go mate, but if it all goes tits up and the promises don’t materialise. What then ?
I keep asking yes voters for their reasons for wanting the move to Kirkby and all they come up with is.
It’s got to be better that what weve got and it will generate more money for the club.
My arse matey!
Again ! Show us hard facts instead of promises.
46 Posted 08/09/2007 at 16:32:34
47 Posted 08/09/2007 at 19:22:21
Like many others, I see this as a disastrous move for Everton. We will leave this City. Is that what the majority of yes voters want? I don’t think so, my guess is that they voted to carry on talking to Tesco and Knowsley because the club had told them there was no alternative.
We want to see if there are. The City Council have said that they will make land available, Bestway have said that they are willing to talk to both the Council and to Everton. Hok have stated that 55 - 60000 seater stadium could be sited in the loop. It would appear that Everton have not yet taken up the invitation to enter into any dialogue.I would have thought that it would be in the best interests of the club to at least explore whether this is a viable alternative.
This is the future of Everton FC at stake here. We will have no second chance if this proves to be as we fear, a move to far.
48 Posted 09/09/2007 at 09:20:41
those who took the trouble to go know it was a good turn out, perhaps he failed to notice that dispite our promising start, only 33,000 turned up for our second home game, when will the penny drop ? 33,000 ! ! !
Is this guy Billy boy’s blood brother ?
49 Posted 09/09/2007 at 10:39:40
50 Posted 09/09/2007 at 10:49:59
I appreciate they started late (although there was nothing to stop them working up their proposal earlier). But they should now be coming up with some basic plan of how the financial side of all this might work. Are they?
51 Posted 09/09/2007 at 12:23:52
Gerard: The meeting was full..... it literally couldn’t have been any fuller, despite only a small mention of it in the echo, very predictably at the end of another pro-kirkby article. You’re right tho, they probably aren’t too worried about a few hundred die hards, I would say they are about the 23,000 who never voted yes. As far as people telling no-voters (love the labelling) that they should now get on with supporting our team, after the meeting these fellas were chartering their own aircraft to the Ukraine, because the club have failed to do it. These fellas all go everywhere, some literally haven’t missed a single game of any description anywhere in 20 years, so don’t worry about their support
With all respect boys, I keep asking.... How much is Kirkby going to cost EFC? How much are the alternatives? If you don’t know the answers to these fundamentals now, you certainly didn’t know them before you voted....... and these should be cast in stone by now!
52 Posted 09/09/2007 at 12:42:12
The biggest reason for the fall in gates is the foreign channels in the boozer and when we do one from the fastest growing city in europe to our flat pack retail park which borders to lancashire farmland you will see a hell of alot more take up this option but these people are not wanted anyway they are only bothered about losing the pub and chipie they go before the game you know the general matchday rituals.
53 Posted 09/09/2007 at 12:59:20
Whilst I and thousands of others share the KEIOC people’s desire to keep our club where it belongs, we have no ties to them, most of us dont even know who they are, however they are a vocal group doing what they think is right, for my club and for that I applaud them and will give them all the time in the world.
You on the other hand regularly come on this site to ridicule them,
If as you claim, they carry no clout, why do you take every opportunity to try to discredit them ? it’s obvious to all you really believe the are a threat. Next time you come on with a comment like the one you made earlier, I suggest it you make sure your it contains some semblance of accuracy
going to Kirkby assured ?
smell the coffee lad,
KEIOC are echoing the views of an extremely large percentage of our fan base 7,000 stay aways will have the custodians of our club trembling in their Gucci’s
54 Posted 09/09/2007 at 13:18:34
You don’t. All you need to know is that it is clearly better than all known alternatives. Kirkby needs to be better than alternatives, not perfect. We already know after years of looking that it is 95% certain at the very least that Kirkby is better than all the known alternatives.
There is no possibility of rebuilding Goodison to make it capable of generating the long-term revenue of Kirkby and not losing crippling levels of revenue whilst it is rebuilt. None.
There is no possibility of the Loop costing as little to build as Kirkby (all those bridges and tunnels), and there are no stand-up partners willing to fund it as in Kirkby.
Financially, we already know more than enough to make the decision for Kirkby. Large business decisions are made on much less than this every day of the week.
We have been looking for years. We haven’t found any other viable alternatives. Kirkby can work. Time is running out. We gotta go. It would taking too much of a risk with our great club to wait any longer.
55 Posted 09/09/2007 at 14:20:46
56 Posted 09/09/2007 at 14:44:49
West Palm Beach all over again I tell you!!
Keep Everton Near Our Pubs!!!
(tongue in cheek)
57 Posted 09/09/2007 at 14:36:59
Same for the KRAG ’march’ in Kirkby, is it 200 or 300 who were there? Either way it’s a pitiful turnout. I for one am happy with the way things are panning out.
58 Posted 09/09/2007 at 14:59:07
In adult life I lived in the US (Boston) for six years (thanks Toffeeweb for keeping me in touch!), and now I live in London.
Probably that was more information than you were looking for!
59 Posted 09/09/2007 at 15:03:05
60 Posted 09/09/2007 at 14:49:47
"We already know after years of looking that it is 95% certain at the very least that Kirkby is better than all the known alternatives."
Where did you get 95% certainty from, how is that calculated? I haven’t said anywhere that you need to know to the exact pound, but to the nearest £10,000,000 would be nice.
"All you need to know is that it is clearly better than all known alternatives."
How is Kirkby clearly better? What alternatives is it better than? I’m sorry, but you can’t just say anything without justifying it.
"There is no possibility of rebuilding Goodison to make it capable of generating the long-term revenue of Kirkby and not losing crippling levels of revenue whilst it is rebuilt. None."
Why this emphasis on NONE? Again, this is nonsense. There are lots of examples of similar projects that have done precisely what you say is not possible. The vast majority of football clubs still redevelop their stadia if its possible on their existing site.
"There is no possibility of the Loop costing as little to build as Kirkby (all those bridges and tunnels), and there are no stand-up partners willing to fund it as in Kirkby."
Again..... who is funding Kirkby? Tesco have already stated that they are not paying for the ground. So what Partners are you talking about? What Bridges and Tunnels? The road will become cut and cover, it’s one of the cheapest forms of construction, and will represent a tiny percentage of the whole project
"Financially, we already know more than enough to make the decision for Kirkby. Large business decisions are made on much less than this every day of the week."
You know enough? I keep asking..... how do these costs compare then?
61 Posted 09/09/2007 at 19:24:01
The facts that ARE important are the 60% of blues who bothered to vote who voted ’yes’, the 40% of fans who bothered to vote who voted ’no’ and the close to 11,000 fans who couldn’t give a fig where we play!
62 Posted 10/09/2007 at 20:43:17
63 Posted 11/09/2007 at 09:23:34
I respect my fellow evertonians who voted NO even though it feels that they do not respect my decision but again I am a grown man and I can live with that. What I still cannot stand is those people who did not vote eitherway I think that shows a lack of respect for the club they call themselve supporters of, but if they had I still believe that the majority would have voted YES many for the reasons given above. Although I respect the NO voters decision what I do not respect is the fact that some whilst protesting against the YES vote are trying to split the supporters with there abuse towards us YES!! voters, I have full respect for your campaining in what you believe even though I think it will prove fruitless in the end, for those of you that believe we have sold the club down the river for having a different opinion should put your energy into your campaign and not slagging us off and splitting the support for out beloved EVERTON!!!
Add Your Comments
In order to post a comment to Column articles, you need to be logged in as a registered user of the site.
Or Sign up as a ToffeeWeb Member — it's free, takes just a few minutes and will allow you to post your comments on articles and MailBag submissions across the site.