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KEIOC Senseless?

By Art Greeth :  08/05/2008 :  Comments (69) :

Christine Foster's 'Board Senseless' is another very interesting thread on which I?ve been reflecting. And I?m going to make a bold statement here which will no doubt offend a few people:

Unless there is a dramatic change to how they are conducting their campaign, the anti-Kirkby lobby is destined to fail.

Let me explain why. I have repeated many times that the club?s own PR in the stadium debate has been hapless, at best. Given their size, status and the importance (as they see it) of a ground move, you would think that the club would hire professional advisors to conduct and co-ordinate their campaign. That doesn?t appear to be the case. In contrast, Tesco are old hands at this and would have encountered local opposition to their projects before. They have the budget, the clout and the mechanisms to achieve their objectives.

Now take the anti-Kirkby lobby, epitomised by KEIOC. I regularly visit the site, but beyond that I have absolutely no idea who are its officers and how they are co-ordinating their campaign, but I can make some educated guesses based on what is in the public domain. At the core, I imagine they are well-meaning and concerned Evertonians. They are normal Joes, like you and me, who have families, homes and jobs to maintain. Circumstances dictate that they cannot dedicate their time 24/7 to the KEIOC campaign. I further imagine that the website and their actions are maintained by volunteers and whatever contributions they can scrap together. As such, they probably constitute a loose alliance of like-minded people. The very nature of such a membership, I would suggest, makes it difficult to formulate an effective policy and campaign to promote and advance their cause.

What results is a mish-mash of very, VERY potent material which COULD advance their cause and give people pause for thought (for example, the interview with Croke Park Stadium Director is, for me, the single best article I have seen on the KEIOC site); mixed with speculative scare-mongering based on irrelevant facts or personal opinion and outrageous personal attacks on club officers AND ?yes? voters, based on presumptions and urban myths.

Now, because of the lack of genuine leadership and an obedient membership (and in saying that, I am not trying to be provocative, dismissive or derogatory to KEIOC and its members ? just stating the structure as I see it?) and a clearly defined action policy which is rigorously imposed on its members, KEIOC is unable to promote an effective, well-co-ordinated campaign that could seriously challenge the direction the club wishes to take.

The net result is that its 500 signed up members (based on KEIOC?s forum membership) represents a minority, closed community. They have come together because they are of a like mind. All well and good. However, the danger of residing in such a small, closed community is that you only accept the prevailing attitude within the group and that you are immediately abusive and dismissive of alternative opinions.

And that for me is what too often happens with supporters of the anti-Kirkby lobby. And in doing so, they are making a fundamental mistake. Because rather than ridiculing and berating supporters in the yes camp they should be engaging with them in reasoned debate. Some do, but far, far too many, far, far too quickly resort to personal insults. Now such angry rhetoric may be cathartic for the author, but? it is damaging to their cause.

I?m sorry to repeat the cold, hard fact, but the anti-Kirkby camp ? based on the club ballot ? is in the minority. It is a wasteful exercise to continue to question the legitimacy or otherwise of that vote. It is a wasted exercise to launch personal attacks on the likes of BK and KW. It is counter-productive to be abusive to those who do not share your opinions ? AT PRESENT!!

Why do I add ?at present??? Because rather than abuse and be dismissive of people who do not share you view on all things Everton, you should be seeking to persuade them and recruit them to your cause. And that for me is the singular failure of the KEIOC campaign and its supporters.

KEIOC and its supporters call attention to what they see as ?bad? news and naively conclude that they have scored a decisive point in the debate, whilst completely ignoring stories which possibly undermine their position. For example, in the last week, the CABE report and Sefton Council objection does not constitute a knock-down argument as to why we SHOULDN?T move to Kirkby, IMO... whilst the news that Tesco has bought out Development Securities interests in the town and that George Howarth now doesn?t intend to call in the scheme should cause the anti-lobby some genuine concern as to just how the project is advancing.

KEIOC has been in existence for more than a year now. In all that time, ask yourself the following:

  • Has their membership grown significantly?
  • Have they been able to stage effective lobbying or mass protests?
  • Has their status and reputation grown to such an extent that they are consulted directly on developments, be it by the club or Tesco?

If the answer to those three questions, as I believe it is, is ?no?, then KEIOC and its supporters perhaps need to consider that however much they believe in their cause, what they are trying to achieve is not being successful. If they can accept that, then they need to further consider ? ?what do we need to do to turn this around?? But as I said at the head of my piece, given the voluntary nature of KEIOC, that is not going to be easily achieved.

Reader Comments

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Lyndon Lloyd
Editorial Team
1   Posted 08/05/2008 at 20:50:59

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I think the answers to your three questions are probably in your preceding thoughts, Art.

KEIOC hasn?t increased its perceived membership because it isn?t a co-ordinated organisation as much as it is a movement, a desire by ordinary Joes to do something about what they believe to be a potential death knell for the club.

While some of their early tactics were too personal and aimed too low, they have clearly matured in their approach but without, as you say, attracting large numbers of members... that?s if they even have an official "membership". What they do have in growing numbers are people who sympathise with their point of view ? thousands of fans who are against Kirkby but don?t have the time or the resources to do anything concrete about it. I applaud them for their efforts and support them even if, as I say, I?ve questioned some of their methods.

At the core of the issue in terms of that support, certainly at the outset, are a couple of important factors: apathy and faith in the club?s custodians. I believe that the former is still as powerful a factor as ever ? a feeling that what will be will be ? but the latter has been shaken enormously in recent months to the extent that the tide of opinion appears to be shifting away from the whole Project Kirkby idea. (Voting in our current poll reveals a majority now not in favour, for instance).

Finally, the club?s (Wyness specifically) approach to the whole issue, in particular around the time of the ballot and in regard to its dismissal of the loop and GP redevelopment options, answers your third question on its own. The Board has clearly demonstrated that it?s Kirkby or bust and have not really counseled or tolerated any opposing viewpoints or alternatives. The idea that they or Tesco would ever consult KEIOC directly on any developments is, frankly, inconceivable and has been almost since the beginning.
Pat Domingo
2   Posted 08/05/2008 at 20:51:57

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Good article Art, you must be in ’PR’!!!
However, I think KEIOC have been successful to an extent, for spurious reasons, as, I think you have exposed before re the lack of mass protests.
They have, to an extent, represented themselves, wrongly in my opinon, as some huge, well supported, grassroots movement - which they are clearly not. So to that extent, they have been successful. Wouldn’t you agree?
It is a bit romantic to view them, as they obviously do themselves, as ’rebels’ the only ones to see ’The Truth’ and the rest being sheep, duped into the move. I also think they are a bit less disparate and a lot more organised than you give credit for. Lets face it, lots of people have a lot of commercial interest in Everton not moving. I agree though on the gravamen of your argument, if that’s not too pretentious. It’s human nature, if people are calling you a scab or traitor because of your opinion, that that sort of abuse will just entrench your own opinion, irrespective of the genuine, reasoned arguments which may have been made by people of a different view.
That’s where they have gone wrong. But then again, if people have to resort to that, doesn’t that speak volumes about the validity of their arguments?
Pat Domingo
3   Posted 08/05/2008 at 21:07:23

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Lyndon: really? Apathy? So again we are all just apathetic. Evertonians don’t care about this? Fans "shaken" by recent events, opinion, "appears to be shifting" - on what basis? This is just the usual KEIOC propaganda you find on this site! What evidence do you have, except a poll on an anti-Kirkby site such as this? Are you really surprised the club/Tesco wont’ talk to KEIOC after all the abuse? Has the club abused KEIOC likewise? Listen up, stop pretending you are a ’movement’ you are not. KEIOC are best described as some mad, religious sect living in a parallel universe. They don’t do logic or reason. They do abuse and blind faith.
Lee Mandaracas
4   Posted 08/05/2008 at 20:56:30

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Art, I am in almost full agreement with you and think your plea for reasoned discussion on both parts is to be applauded and long overdue. However, the fundamental problem is that both sides are as guilty of myopic propaganda and point scoring.

I believe you are precisely correct in your analysis of KEIOC but EFC & Tesco are equal in their ham-fisted PR. The threat of legal action against a group they have utterly disregarded and demeaned at every turn, purely for having the audacity to disagree with them, is both weak and desperate.

Both sides should engage but I believe the ’Kirkby Camp’ to be deceitful, ruthless and utterly self-serving. KEIOC, on the other hand, are too passionate and blinkered in only trying to expose the other parties’ deceit. We know they have repeatedly lied and misled, it has been proven repeatedly - "There is no plan B", "We have conducted a feasibility study on the redevelopment of Goodison Park", "Ample free parking in walking distance", "Virtually free", etc, etc, etc.

In an ideal world we would engage rationally and discuss but one party will not give us ANY of the information we need and deserve if it does not suit their purpose precisely. In an ideal world we wouldn’t be in this predicament of blatant desperation forcing so many fans to accept a poor option of fate.

I will long mourn the loss of the Kings Dock and refuse to accept that settling for stadium mediocrity now would be better than searching for another, equally impressive, chance in the near future. That has nothing to do with Kirkby but everything to do with the stadium. Had the artist’s impression of the loop design been in Kirkby I believe the vote would have been a far greater ’Yes’. That had a striking appeal and was iconic. Tescodrome is an enlarged sports centre pitch with some spotlights and a nighttime setting to try and make it look dramatic.

It’s a drama alright!

Sorry, excellent piece. Rant over.
Mick Gallagher
5   Posted 08/05/2008 at 21:14:08

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Well Art each to his own, but I?ve had a lot more information from KEIOC than our own club. I?ve emailed the club a few times and the times they bother to get back its usually short sharp replies and not much info.
I would love Keith Wyness or Bill Kenwright to have a live dicussion with KEIOC on the ground move, but I would not hold my breath.
Lee Mandaracas
6   Posted 08/05/2008 at 21:30:24

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P.S. To clarify my complaint about EFC threatening legal action against KEIOC. I do not question they may have legal grounds as I’m not aware of the full details. However, to instigate proceedings, or publicly state such an intention, rather than communicating with the party concerned in the first place is what I take issue with. I believe that has probably blown up in their faces by turning a few supporters away. I wonder when they will get out of the playground and into the boardroom.
Jay Harris
7   Posted 08/05/2008 at 21:34:00

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Lee
We got it wrong ? it was not Keioc they were after it was some dentist in Japan.

They can't even get legal action right, no wonder we?re still lokking for investors 24/7.
Terry Turpin
8   Posted 08/05/2008 at 21:28:07

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Art, Let me tell you something. I have no affiliation with KEIOC but I know exactly who they are. Why? Because I have watched Everton home and away for years, from Bergen to Houston to Iceland to the Far East, from Carrow Road to Pitordrie etc etc and if you were part of that hardcore of Everton fans who all know each other or is mates with one of their mates, everyone a familiar face, then you would know them too.

These are the fans who travel to every away match, these are the lads who went everywhere in the early 80s when Everton only used to take a few hundred away fans, these fans bleed blue blood, their kids bleed the same blood, these fans are literally the heart and soul of Everton FC. Scousers through and through, people who live and breathe in the city everyday and are more qualified than anyone to know what moving to Kirkby will do to this great club of ours.

Christened in St Luke's, ashes scattered in L4 4EL... if Kenwright or Leahy or dare I say it people like yourself (educated guess?) also lived and breathed in this city EVERY SINGLE DAY then they/you would also know the damage this proposed move is going to do.

The city is turning redder every day, I see it everyday of my life and this proposed move to Kirkby would kill the Everton that has been part of our family since the turn of the last century. Do Kenwright and Leahy see this from their home county mansions?

So the ?anti-kirkby lobby? may be a minority to you wherever you are from or wherever you may live but, trust me, if you were part of the most loyal followers of this great club and lived and breathed in this great city of ours EVERY DAY then you would know that NO ONE and I mean NO ONE wants this move to Kirkby.

nil satis nisi optimum

Lee Mandaracas
9   Posted 08/05/2008 at 22:03:47

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Terry Maddock, I’m afraid you have just proven the very point of the article. why would you hysterically attack the writer and presume their opinion of the move. I am against the move but agree with their point as you may have read. To which side am I a turncoat?

What the piece asks for is discussion and facts, not the slagging off and bickering. I feel the same passion as you against the move but will achieve absolutely nothing by spilling out bile to people with a differing view.

Your argument seems to only value hardcore supporters such as yourself whom you confess are in the minority. The majority are the ones who, as a unit although clearly not as individuals, support this club with the greatest financial clout. Let’s not discredit their efforts just because they may not tread the extra mile with you.

However well travelled and however many matches attended, we are all Evertonians so please try to keep it civil, eh?
Adam Cunliffe
10   Posted 08/05/2008 at 21:58:06

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Terry, don?t just assume that everyone who is against the move is not a scouser and doesn?t go to every home and away game. I'm from St Helens and I am not scouse, but i am most definately Everton through and through. My dad went to all the games in the late seventies to roughly the early nineties when I was born and he isn?t a scouser either, he?s actualy from Ashton in Wigan.

You don?t have to be a scouser to realise that this move is not right for our future Terry, just remember that
Terry Turpin
11   Posted 08/05/2008 at 22:36:53

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Lee/Adam, I?m afraid, unlike you I found that article arrogant and provocative and stand by every word I say. I wasn?t trying to have a dig at non-scousers, but let me put it this way, if I was a Man United fan from Cheshire who lived in Dubai I wouldn?t have the cheek to tell a load of Mancs from Salford who have watched Man U everywhere for the last 30 years that ?our? club would be better off moving grounds 6 miles away from it?s roots. As I say, some people are qualified to make judgements on the ground move, others are not.
Don?t bother replying ?cause I?m off to bed.
Good night.
Lee Mandaracas
12   Posted 08/05/2008 at 23:01:30

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I?m sorry but I have to reply to that. How arrogant can you be Terry? Who made you judge of who is qualified and who is not simply because they are not you or one of your mates? That sort of approach is a large part of the problem.

We heard your point the first time but it seems you are unwilling to hear ours. Yes, you support well the team and live in the vicinity. I support them well too and have for the last 35 years but I live 200 miles away. Do my increased efforts to get there make me a better supporter because I make more effort to get to home games than you? No, that is just as absurd as your stance.

We all have the right to an opinion on this but for the sake of our club we have a duty to be as dispassionate and reasoned as possible. Otherwise, we come across as judgmental as you have done. I am sure you are a decent bloke who is just sick of the whole scenario but don?t take that out on people who are on your side mate. Sleep well.
Lyndon Lloyd
Editorial Team
13   Posted 08/05/2008 at 22:58:11

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Pat Domingo: "Apathy? So again we are all just apathetic. Evertonians don?t care about this?"

Perhaps resignation rather than apathy is the right term. What I meant to convey was the notion that people feel that following the vote and the mandate it gave the Board, there was very little that the ordinary fan could do. After all, did FC United not fail in their attempts to stop the Glazer buy-out? Was AFC Wimbledon not the result of their failure to stop their club moving to Milton Keynes?.

You can imagine people thinking: "KEIOC are going to hold a demonstration outside the players? entrance after the game? What will that achieve? I don?t think Buster gives a fuck."

Fans "shaken" by recent events, opinion, "appears to be shifting" - on what basis? This is just the usual KEIOC propaganda you find on this site! What evidence do you have, except a poll on an anti-Kirkby site such as this?

Pat, every poll this "anti-Kirkby", "KEIOC propagandist" site ran prior to and during the ballot came out with a 60-40 majority in favour of Kirkby. The latest poll has numbers swinging the other way. The editorial and some of the loudest mouths on this site may be anti-Kirkby but don?t for a minute discount the silent majority who visit these pages day in, day out and vote anonymously in our polls.

The Echo and Daily Post have clearly been sufficiently emboldened by this apparent shift to start printing critical or "negative" reports on the prospect of Destination Kirkby not coming to fruition.

You?ve got Tesco scaling down their plans in the face of local opposition, Wyness crapping himself that it?ll get called in, and Moyes changing his rhetoric to include "redeveloping Goodison" as a solution to the club?s financial/stadium problems.

Whether you like it or not, there has been a shift in opinion as the devil in the detail betrays the reality of Kirkby as being so much different from what was proposed on the ballot.
Lewis Abbott
14   Posted 09/05/2008 at 00:20:16

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Why have no mass protests been organised? I mean the last game of the season is just around the corner... something should be done...

Anything to get Bully Bill away from this club and stop it going to shit...

Something should have been organised for the Newcastle game but I guess its too late... chance missed, boys.
Colin Grierson
15   Posted 09/05/2008 at 05:39:58

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Well written Art.

I believe there are many more reasonable people on both sides of the disagreement than unreasonable. However, the reasonable people tend to be less vocal and more thoughtful. It is, however, an emotive issue and I believe KEIOC wanted to be heard and made a few mistakes in doing so.
As you rightly say their campaign is manned by ordinary supporters with like minds and a coordinated approach is difficult to achieve.
The important thing for KEIOC to bear in mind is that the truth will always come out in the end and propaganda in this day and age creates its own difficulties.
It is time that the name calling stopped from both sides of the vote. Slagging off the people who own the club is not the way forward and NEVER will be. Having a voice that cannot be ignored because of sheer numbers IS the way forward.

You are DEAD RIGHT Art when you say that recruiting the support of ’yes’voters is the way forward. The release of information since the vote has certainly changed the minds of some voters. Polls like the one on this site are an indicator of the feelings of supporters.
I applaud anyone from either side of the debate who produces a balanced and thoughtful article that keeps this debate going.
I would love someone to convince me that Kirkby was the right move for the club. The only way that could happen though is by stating FACTS. The club have been unable to do so and that is the reason that I am opposed to the move at present.

Dave Wilson
16   Posted 09/05/2008 at 05:34:16

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Adam"
Terry Maddock is being a bit dismissive about guys like yourselve, however, He does speak a lot of fact, if you travel around with the blues you’ll know the group of 2-3 thousands hardcore fans he speaks about very definately exist, I know they do, Ive seen them from Newcastle to Portsmouth and to a man they dont want Kirkby. Of course your right, every Evertonian is entitled to their view.
Lee
You claim the piece asked for discussion and fact, yet it offered none ! " I can make some educated guesses"
"I imagine they are well meaning"
"I have no idea who its officers are"
"I further imagine"
The article is merely the opinion of the ill imformed
Adam Cunliffe
17   Posted 09/05/2008 at 07:53:36

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I know we have a large fanbase who travel all the away game and a great deal of respect should go to each and everyone of them no matter what side of the argument they are on regarding Kirby. I don?t go to all the away matches in a season but does that make me an unloyal supporter who isn?t entitles to have an opinion on the move? I don?t think so.

So Terry I have a massive amount of respect for you as you do travel to every away game but alls I?m saying is, no matter where your from be it England Wales or even Australia, we're all Evertonians who don?t/do want to move to Kirby and want to share our opinions on the subject.
Ed Fitzgerald
18   Posted 09/05/2008 at 07:30:43

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Art, well done

This is another elegant piece of prose with some salient points for Evertonians on both sides of the divide to consider. Yes rational open debate about the progress of Destination Kirkby would be wonderful and lead to much better relations between the club and the ?minority? who oppose the move to Kirkby. The crux of the matter is the club don?t want that, do they! Therefore a function of KEIOC has been to find information, express alternative viewpoints and ensure that the issue remains a hot topic in the local/national media. I believe they have at least achieved this at the local level as well being referenced in the national media from time to time when the issue has been discussed.

You appear to infer that resistance to the project is isolated to Sefton CC, LCC the CABE Report etc? I am afraid the list is lot longer than that. Many of the people of Kirkby (the majority) voted for political parties that had policies that were anti Destination Kirkby, don?t they matter either? Both West Lancs and St Helens council have raised objection as have their respective MP?s. Project Jennifer (designed to regenerate North Liverpool) and the Liverpool 1 project have all expressed doubts over the viability of the scheme. I could go on but you would probably dismiss theirs and others concerns as irrelevant. Art as I have stated before its not up to George Howarth to call it in, its up to Hazel Blears the minister with responsibility to make this decision.

You can add another name to that list of people opposing the club the group of Japanese dentists the clubs legal team issued a writ against instead of your friends at KEIOC. (Yet another PR disaster) That latest fiasco was reported in last week?s issue of Private Eye along with some other comments about the clubs attitude to its own supporters (i.e. suing them when we tout ?the People's Club" as marketing tool).

An article about TESCO?s legal strategy of issuing libel writs to quell dissenting voices and opinions was placed strategically above the Everton article. I think you have stated in previous posts that you have worked in journalism? Please read the article in the Eye I would not want you to accuse me of perpetuating an urban myth!

Alan Willo
19   Posted 09/05/2008 at 07:45:52

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Art, sort of agree but KEIOC has been a flawed group since its birth. Firstly before you come on and have a go at me let me make a couple of points. The name itself?well does that mean we would accept EFC?s new ground moving to JL Airport?

The answer is a clear no, would we accept it moving to Hillside School/Bootle stadium just over 1 mile away then I think we would probably get a yes compared to the option of Kirkby. Just in case people are not aware the second option is not in the City but in Sefton!!

Just a mile away from GP is the end of the invisible boundary. That?s been my point since the start, thousands of Evertonians already park their cars outside the city for home games, they don?t cross a boundary (in their minds) they just cross Queens Drive!

My second point was they became a partner with LCC and Bradley, this to me was a massive mistake when they should have engineered most of the protest towards the local council because they had the power to make a difference in this whole debate by offering Tesco and EFC Walton Park. KEIOC chose to target EFC board and that was never going to go down well with the large majority of fans and consequently alienating them further from the fan base who they should have tried so hard to canvas.

That?s why I as an Everton Season ticket holder hold very little respect for an organization as KEIOC, I see their posts and tactics as an embarrassment, me and my friends all sit in the Paddock and when the plane flies over we cringe or even laugh. So many good loyal fans have been misled by local Militants who have driven what is a valid disagreement, by allowing themselves to be caught up in a slagging off debate rather than lobbying people in a thoughtout manner who can influence the decision.

To take a line form the No side, another missed opportunity. COYB

Roy Warne
20   Posted 09/05/2008 at 08:44:59

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Here here, Terry Maddock. Whilst I am sure you are not insinating that people who are not from the city and don?t live, work or play in the city are no less an Evertonian than those who do, I fully agree with you that to wholly appreciate the emotive aspects of Destination Kirkby you do have to be in this city on a daily basis.

The city has changed so much in the last 5 years ? anyone going near a school in the city on a sports day will tell you that the red shirts far out number the blue ones. Try going into the city centre when there is a live match on and see the difference between an Everton game and a Liverpool game. Try working with a load of RSs and hear what they have to say about Kirkby. You have to experience the bias towards the RS on a daily basis in this city to fully appreciate the irrecoverable damage that a move to kirkby would do.

As has been said before, we would literally be handing the city, and all its gold-paved streets, to our fiercest rivals... and you are right Terry, there is no way that Kenwright and Leahy can see that from the comfort of their home county mansions.

Lee Mandaracas
21   Posted 09/05/2008 at 09:07:07

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Dave Wilson - I accept your point that the article itself may not have been steeped in well-researched fact but my stance remains. It is largely based on supposition and I don’t believe Art denies or apologises for this, or should. It is an opinion that is, I believe, intended to provoke thought and help engender a greater strategy.

I believe it was also highlighting the over-exuberance of many whose rightful passion overtakes them and clouds their argument, thus discrediting their side of the discussion. It definitely demonstrates a craving for the facts from EFC, but then again don’t we all?
Jay Campbell
22   Posted 09/05/2008 at 09:17:06

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Grim article.

Kenwright and Wyness have carefully engineered this move and will get their pockets lined and won’t look back.

Blind, ignorant and easily led fans have caused this situation. At least KEIOC have had some arse to stand up to these bullshitting vultures on our board ov directors.

Collectively you will be to blame for the demise of Everton Football Club in my eyes coz it is gonna happen.

Kirkby - They might as well put the stadium in Milton Keynes coz that has about as much affiliation with Everton Football Club as what Kirkby has.

Phil Bellis
23   Posted 09/05/2008 at 09:41:10

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Roy...nail, head, hammer
Ex-pats who may remember the ’friendly’ derbies of old have no idea of the depth of ill feeling in the City. ’We don’t care...’ Well I do, I have to live amongst the sods, hardly any of whom have ever been to Anfield and even fewer know who the manager was before Shankly.
It staggers me how any Evertonian who witnesses Liverpool supporters’ sheer joy at the prospect of our bailing out can think leaving our home City will help us progress. Irrational? Emotional? Yes, but being a fan isn’t logical and football IS about emotion, isn’t it?
There are none so blind.
Brian Baker
24   Posted 09/05/2008 at 09:35:25

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I can understand why BK and KW treat any polls conducted now with some contempt, in the same way the Prime Minister would treat a mid-term opinion poll. They don’t matter, we have had the general election and fans have chosen!

The die has been cast and the only thing that may stop us moving to Kirkby now is if it gets called in by central government for a public enquiry.
Gerard Madden
25   Posted 09/05/2008 at 09:44:50

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Good article, anyway just a point about the Kirkby election results again, i’ve noticed one or two people are peddling mistruths about its outcome (Ed on here and Tom Hughes in another thread). Lets just look at the ’facts’ rather than blatent lies......Labour got 60% of the vote across Kirkbys six wards from the people of Kirkby on the redevelopment of THEIR town centre, Labour won ALL of the seats even those seats cheek by jowl with the development site....oops and I almost forgot the apathetic 70-80% of Kirkbyonians who dont give o’ hoot about any stadium development and who didnt bother to vote! - remind you of a certain 11,000 non-voters last August. ;)
Paul O'Hanlon
26   Posted 09/05/2008 at 10:03:27

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Dave and Terry, you both obviously follow the blues up and down the country and you both mention that in your opinions the majority if not all are against the move to Kirkby...so why don?t you guys make your feelings known at the games!

That?s the main thing that frustrates me about this move. So many people I speak to around the ground on match days and on these sites are against the move, yet we never make any real protest where it counts... at the match!

Imagine the impact it?d have on the board and media if the thousands who travel the country every week made their feelings known before every away game? We?re happy enough to sing songs about Stevie G lar ffs, so why can?t we sing about something important to us??!!

Or we could just sit back, keep moaning about it on this site and let certain posters keep telling us we?re in the minority and the club doesn?t need our support.
Art Greeth
27   Posted 09/05/2008 at 10:53:57

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Strewth! I’m a bit surprised why this has appeared now as a standalone article, more than a week after I first posted it.

I actually put it in Christine’s ’Board Senseless’ thread, having to split it into two posts to get accepted.

Bugger! Now I’ve got to find some time to read the responses. Hey-ho...
Art Greeth
28   Posted 09/05/2008 at 11:33:42

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Lyndon and others, can I first say that I love Internet forums such as TW. It is both anarchic and democratic at the same time, but I?m not so naïve as to believe that it constitutes a general, prevailing opinion on any given issue. Like-minded people will naturally gravitate to sites where they will encounter people of their own ilk. For this reason SOME Evertonians gather here. But then, as proven by the stadium debate, there is further division amongst them. In no way are they homogenous.

Another phenomena of the Internet is that it pampers to the vanity and ego of us all. In an instant, your views and opinion can go global. That?s pretty trippy. Alas for some, they are not always prepared for the reaction they may draw. Quite simply, if you post on an Internet public forum you have to be prepared for both the plaudits and the brickbats that may come your way. And whilst people are happy to take the former, they often take umbrage at the latter.

What I am saying with these last two points is that, IMO, it is erroneous thinking to believe because you gather a few positive responses to a single post on a minority website that the momentum is somehow with you. What difference, seriously, do postings on here or KEIOC make to Tesco or the club in their ambition to take the club to Kirkby? The only thing that will make them really sit up and take notice is ACTION.

Take the following example. In the mailbag last week, a poster raised the question of wearing KEIOC tee-shirts on match days. One of the problems the anti-Kirkby lobby has is that its numbers are not quantifiable. We are frequently told by some that it is considerable. The data available ? KEIOC membership, lack of protest action where heads can be counted ? suggests otherwise. A well-co-ordinated, imaginative campaign would arrange for ?no? supporters to smuggle tee-shirts into GP on a match day (if indeed that is truly necessary?) and at a given time ? say, at half-time ? for all of those supporters around the stadium to don those tee-shirts and ? as a silent protest ? stand up in their seats with heads bowed. If the numbers ARE as considerable as some suggest, think of the imagery, the publicity, as news services beam the pictures around the world. If KEIOC were really serious and determined, if they truly believe that the majority of Evertonians ? particularly match-attending Blues ? aligned themselves with their cause, they would even arrange to distribute the tee-shirts free of charge. THEN you have a movement which would possibly gather momentum and put Tesco and the club on the back foot. The key is to make it non-confrontational. Protestors could add to the drama of the image by symbolically gagging their mouths.

Now KEIOC and its sympathizers have had a whole season to stage something like this? yet have not. Why not? There is now only one home game left to demonstrate the anti-lobby is as great as is claimed. Before the start of the next season, the argument may already have been lost and the first sod in Destination Kirkby could already have been turned. IMO endless threads hidden away on minority websites will not matter a jot at the end of the day. ACTION, as suggested above, could.

Just to answer Terry Maddock and others, I do indeed live abroad - in Portugal. I am a son of the city of Liverpool, I have real blue blood in my veins, going back three generations to the days of Dixie. Unlike some parochial reactionaries I would NEVER deny ANY Evertonian the right to express an opinion on anything related to EFC, regardless of where they were born or were they were located. I take it the likes of you and Roy Warne probably fully endorse the postings of Christine Foster. But ? doncha know? ? based on your criteria she is even less of an Evertonian than me and should be totally ignored. She lives in Australia.
Eugene Ruane
29   Posted 09/05/2008 at 10:37:55

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I support KEIOC, believe what they believe, signed up and personally think KEIOC should take GREAT heart from posts like this (and other posts from 100% non-iffy real people...who are nothing to do with Kissman).

I have said many times, when I see such time and effort spent knocking what is a voluntary, amateur, nothing-to-gain-financially organization, answerable to NOBODY but themselves, I start to believe they may actually be having a real effect.

I mean look at the length of the post!

Look at the little "so in conclusion" list of points at the end just so we don?t forget.

Look at how often the feller is visiting the site.

Personally, if there is something I disagree with, but genuinely has no chance of succeeding, I simply don?t bother with it.

Ask yourself this - Does Art sound like someone who thinks KEIOC have got it wrong and therefore ISN?T in the least bit worried?

Not to me he doesn?t.

Personally, I?m just waiting for a post by Art knocking the design of the KEIOC site and slagging the spelling mistakes.

Then I?ll know we?re DEFFO not going to Kirkby.
Brendan Fox
30   Posted 09/05/2008 at 11:25:45

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Everyone has the right to thier opinion people that is the reason we live in a democracy. Whether you voted for or against is your entitlement. Consturctive criticism and open debate is the only way that things will be resolved, mudslinging is for the playground and should stay there. In my opinion and the idea has been mentioned a few times lastly and constructively by Paul OHanlon that if you guys&gals that voted NO want to have your voice heard you need to make your stand at the match. Not just one home game but every home game. Don’t buy the next kit that comes out, don’t buy the warm Chang and cold pie but most of all banners and placards at the game, make some chants/songs up, whole sections of the crowd with sheets of paper spelling out your point. These in my opinion are the way of getting your message heard and certainly not SLAGGING of fellow Evertonians. Fragments and cracks are already starting to appear in the fanbase all the bickering and namecalling is only going to make the foundations of this great club come tumbling down. It’s the fans that make the club! COYB
Paul Lally
31   Posted 09/05/2008 at 12:25:40

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I shall repeat a line from an article I wrote after the Anfield derby - "Fuck off to Kirkby, the city?s now ours."

If that one song is not enough to get people to wake up then I do not know what is.

As also stated before, I come from a majority red family and they cannot believe their luck that we are going to -

a) Let them have Stanley Park - they think they deserve it !!!!
b) And after letting them get the ?Park? we are then going to make them euphoric by leaving the city.

They can see the finacial benefits from
? One club, One city.?

Can I just remind everyone that - EVERTON FC ARE THE FIRST CLUB OF LIVERPOOL.

?If you know your history..........?

If we have to leave Goodison (and after reading through all the evidence I cannot see for life of me why we cannot redevelop and that includes the financial implications) then the Loop is a viable option. Bestway are not a ?Mickey Mouse? company like some want to believe. Yes Tesco are huge but they are huge compared to the majority of worldwide companies.

HOK are now one of the most respected and innovative stadium design companies in the world. Croke Park built over a canal and railway line in the city of Dublin. HOK for the Loop - with a footprint we can fit into - new walkways and tunnels etc. But this was made out to be impossible and people fell for it.

Walton Hall Park - Sainsbury?s are still waiting in the background. This was put together by an Evertonian that BK knows and said he would have further meetings with - he is still waiting for a phone call.

Even my fellow season ticket holder friends who admit to voting yes are now swallowing their pride because they now know they were being lied to and want other options reviewed. They are now seriously asking themselves a lot of questions but the main one being -
?What exactly is Keith Wyness agenda and why is he so determined to take Everton to Kirkby when the fan base are split and he knows we are handing the city over to Liverpool ?? (Regardless of boundaries) More money for him but more money for EFC I do not think so. Corporate ??? No way - Corporate companies will not book conference suites etc when they are readly available in the city.

I went to a quarterly review meeting in Barcelona last year. All paid for by the promotions arm of the company and we had our meetings in a conference room at the Nou Camp and stayed in the city. It was brilliant. No way would our promotions dept book a suite too far out of Barcelona - What For ?
Most companies have mixed supporters and they will book at LFC then a short hop back into the city for a night out. Also companies that will book executive boxes for a season - why on earth would they do that in a mid-level stadium on a retail park and then a haul back to the city when entertaining clients?

They will want to show them the city, Matthew Street, Albert Dock etc. And the history and tradition of football on Merseyside including the distance between the clubs, the rivalry and the worldwide unique story of our birth.

Now that is a fact.

Art Greeth
32   Posted 09/05/2008 at 13:07:32

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EJ Ruane... I refute completely that my post knocks KEIOC in any way. If anything, it is sympathetic to its plight and recognizes the restraints it works under. As for the remainder of your post, there really is nothing that merits further discussion.
Ed Fitzgerald
33   Posted 09/05/2008 at 12:45:36

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Brendan

Everton?s approach has hardly been to encourage debate has it? It is suing KEIOC for having the audacity to voice an alternative opinion! So imagine how they would deal with any kind of formal protest in the ground?? The club are behaving in an autocratic manner, you state that

?Constructive criticism and open debate is the only way that things will be resolved?

I totally agree but the behaviour of the club is akin to that of a dictatorship trying to silence those who oppose or question the details of the move.

I would gladly take part in some form of non violent form of disobedience or protest at Goodison. Perhaps those well known urban guerrillas at KEIOC can organise something? Maybe we are all deluded and the club would be happy for fans to bring anti- Kirkby banners etc into the ground in the spirit of free speech. The clubs current actions seem to indicate otherwise. Maybe KEIOC can form an alliance with Japanese Dentists and launch a propaganda counter offensive.

The cracks in the fan base you allude to are in fact chasms as the belligerence of many of the posts (from either side) on this website prove.
Gerard Madden
34   Posted 09/05/2008 at 13:17:49

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Mr. Lally, I know what you’re saying and all tha’ about handing the city over to the rs but its been proved time and time again that most evertonians via the ballot and lack of protesting feel otherwise. When KEIOC did that infamous clarion call for blues to protest only a couple o’ dozen turned up! Most of us see Kirkby as a strong scouse heartland just four miles away and very much part of the city despite where some politicians decided to draw an invisible line!
Tony Williams
35   Posted 09/05/2008 at 13:35:33

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I am not going to have a go at KEIOC and I don’t believe the aithor of the thread is either EJ and the tone of your post hardly helps your cause.

This was touched upon previously and is an interesting point in that the name itself of the site and movement does itself no favours, it was probably just a 5 minute brainstorming session that thought it up by Keep Everton in "OUR" City. This in itself could be construed that it’s members should only be scousers within the imagined boundaries and therefore fans from Kirkby and even Bootle should not be included. Perhaps Keep Everton In "THE" City would have been a better acronym, granted KEIOC looks better than KEITC and is pronouncable.

Also, which is the point I find much more interesting is that when we initially moved to Goodison from Analfield, neither clubs were in the city boundary.
Chad Schofield
36   Posted 09/05/2008 at 12:58:54

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?Pat Domingo? and Terry nice demonstration of making your point without insulting people, but I certainly admire your passion Terry.

That sort of argument has been bounced about so, so many times? ?it?s going to happen, get over it?/ ?if you?re a true Evertonian?, ?there was a vote, and there was a ?yes? majority?/ ?Go to any pub before KO??

I have a lot of sympathy for what Lyndon has said. Having read, discussed and commented on some written bits about this you do begin to feel apathetic. Effectively if the board had their shit together then I think that it would be absolutely inevitable. I do believe however, that it?s not only Everton supporters who are necessarily putting the move under more scrutiny (no big revelation there Pat) and those who love the club (that?s not to say that anyone who still thinks it is a good idea does not) seem to be asking more questions. I have the utmost respect for the KEIOC lot because as Art said they are volunteers and they are trying to do something about something that they believe will damage the club that we all love. I don?t believe they think that they?re some kind of super resistance movement, just concerned fans. But one thing I do bet is that if they started legal proceeding against someone they?d make damn sure they didn?t waste time and money on stupid mistakes,
Tony Williams
37   Posted 09/05/2008 at 13:46:29

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It is also clear that KEIOC have bottled it with their spineless performances as it is clear that BK was there for the taking.

If KEOIC don?t win then I am not renewing my membership.

Sorry couldn?t help it ;-)

One point though, with regards to the possible legal proceedings. EFC or their lawyers did not bring this "incident" to the media?s attention and they were not considering legal action just "because they disagree with them" but it was to do with apparent misinformation and defamatory remarks, I know ironic isn?t it.

I feel that their actions are disgusting but let's not say it was for something that it wasn?t
Tom Hughes
38   Posted 09/05/2008 at 13:31:55

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GM,
You have one argument: "the vote proves that most want Kirkby...... etc!?" You repeat it ad nauseum because everything else that underpinned your stance and indeed even the vote’s outcome has long since vanished in the puff of smoke and mirrors of deception. "Couple o’ dozen" you say? What about over 10,000 no voters despite the heavily weighted ballot, and the backing it received from big business and the media? Where are all your "massive" majority of Yes voters on all these forums now, and in the current polls? Check out the numbers of articles and posts supporting it recently in this or any forum.... at the point when all in authority are attacking it, where are they all? Where is your demo?

But most pertinantly..... where is your protest to the club for not delivering on ANY of the promises you signed your name to..... A stadium for "practically nothing"; Saying there were no viable planB’s due to financial constraints, then finding £78m for Kirkby to disprove that assertion; Saying there were no options when WHP was suggested to them via another supermarket at the same time; Saying it was the most accessible stadium in the country to then prove via its own transport plan that it wont even be more accessible than GP (which does not need a park and ride scheme to meet legislation)......... I think that’s enough for you to be getting on with for now.
Neil Adderley
39   Posted 09/05/2008 at 13:59:47

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Art - I read your article with some interest. Like others on here I also know members of keioc, in fact having been introduced to a few of their officers some time ago I?ve regularly exchange emails so perhaps I have a slightly better insight into their campaign than most.

When introduced, at a private function, these two keioc guys, later joined by a third, were discussing meetings with politicians, business people and the press. Like many, my impression of keioc was based on reading leaflets and comments on forums, I explained my view (impression of keioc) and awaited the inevitable argument. This never came, surprisingly they agreed, they identified that one of their major problems was media communication and that improving this was a key element of their future strategy which included improved press relations and internet campaign.

Last night I emailed keioc, asking them if they knew Art Greeth and what was their opinion, here?s their response,

?Posts on Toffeeweb, one of the better writers on there, must be either a current or ex journalist or similar, based in Portugal last we heard, whilst his ability to write is beyond question he?s like an Italian, all style and no substance. Posts are littered with his opinions in place of any substantial facts possibly due to his remote location, not believed to attend the match so probably forms these opinions from internet forums whilst doing what most people do, sitting on their arse doing nothing.?

Is this a fair assessment Art?

Whilst you state that you know nothing about keioc?s leadership or strategy they appear to know a fair bit about you! I then took the liberty of sending keioc your latest article and asked them to answer the three questions. Here are their answers:
Has keioc?s membership grown significantly?

?Yes and no, the numeric value certainly hasn?t grown significantly simply because as a pressure group, as opposed to a protest group, we don?t see any advantage in having a recruitment drive to simply boost the membership. Where the membership has grown significantly is in the additional skills that have been provided by new members enabling KEIOC to further develop relationships with local and national politicians, stakeholder businesses and media outlets. This has manifested itself in the increased and improved coverage, from our perspective, of the issues relating to our campaign and has without doubt contributed to the change in fans attitude. It?s the message that?s important and the first stage of this message is to ensure the fans hear our views on the Kirkby proposal. As an indication of this thousands have responded to our survey and the daily monitoring facility indicates that 82% are against Kirkby. I?d challenge any matchgoing Evertonian to tell me that the majority of fans are in favour of this move.?

Have keioc been able to stage effective lobbying or mass protests?

?For the reasons previously explained mass protests aren?t part of the rationale at KEIOC; you would need to form a protest group whose specific aim was to protest against a specific issue, the spirit of shankly is perhaps an example of this when they march from the Sandon to their ground. Our approach is different, we have organised two very well attended public meetings and over 4,000 people attended the St George?s Hall exhibition on alternatives to Destination Kirkby. Our ability to lobby the media, politicians and business representatives has produced significant results; whilst I?m unable to be specific you?d have to be incredibly naive to believe that the change in media coverage and local political activity against Destination Kirkby was not being influenced by someone against the Kirkby project and for a re-developed Goodison Park or a new stadium close to the city centre.?

Has keioc?s status and reputation grown to such an extent that they are consulted directly on developments, be it by the club or Tesco?

?Tesco and Everton are in an exclusive symbiotic relationship that has been formed to take the club to Kirkby for the express benefit of Tesco, Knowsley Council and the directors of Everton. The KEIOC campaign is against this and believes that such a move will be detrimental to the club and its fans. We have also forged links with groups in Kirkby that have similar aims and as such it would be ridiculous to expect that Tesco or Everton would consult with KEIOC on any aspect of this specific move. This is not to say that KEIOC have no contact with Tesco and Everton, Michael Kissman has recently attended a lengthy meeting with our media officer and earlier this year Everton?s head of PR and our Secretary both attempted to broker a meeting between an interested developer and an Everton board member, sadly this failed to take place. It?s a sad reflection on Everton?s inability or desire to communicate when the media, business leaders and politicians at the highest level are all contacting KEIOC for help and information. Despite this we?re always happy to speak with the club, in private correspondence or in public debate.?

As this was an opportunity to gain an insight into keioc I took the liberty of asking an additional question.

What does the future hold for keioc, what can we expect from the group in the near future?

Off the field of play the greatest problems faced by the club today are the inevitable public enquiry into Kirkby and the failure to build or redevelop a stadium. Irrespective of Everton?s consummate belief in Tesco?s ability to deliver this project the fact remains that the development, taken as a whole, represents a massive departure from local, regional and national planning policy and as such will attract objections from all neighbouring authorities and major commercial interests such as Grosvenor, St Modwen, Bootle Strand and Aintree Racecourse retail park.

The delaying tactic, by Knowsley, of offering ?significant reductions? on the retail element will be seen as little more than a device to prevent these objections being lodged. KEIOC fully expect KMBC to be minded to grant planning permission and for the Secretary of State to immediately call a lengthy and expensive public enquiry at which this plan will be scrutinised in far greater detail.

Everton?s stated reliance on their ability to assemble their £78,000,000 contribution from the sale of Goodison, Bellefield, securitizing a future stadium naming rights deal and additional debt is also a concern to KEIOC and financial people from Tesco and Knowsley Council.

It would be ill conceived of KEIOC to campaign against Kirkby without having a viable alternative. We?ve been diligently canvassing support for our ideas for the future and hope to operate as one voice with a couple of other groups in the very near future. Our plan is to present a fully funded phased redevelopment of Goodison, this has always been our plan A, as a plan B we are continuing to encourage and support the potential development of Scotland Rd which has recently received an exciting and unexpected boost from a former rival to the Kirkby project who have now expressed an interest in becoming involved with the development project of that area. Definitely one to watch!?

Art - I have always found the people of keioc to be open to dialogue. I would suggest if you have any further enquiries you should contact them directly.
John Lloyd
40   Posted 09/05/2008 at 14:28:32

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The only critisizm I have is that they haven't organised something for the Newcastle game as Lewis Abbot as said.

I emailed them 3/4 weeks ago outlining plans for a protest against Kirkby & Wyness with details on how we could achieve this succesfully. All I asked was that they got behind it, stuck thier name to it & I would've done all the donkey work myself but I haven't even had a reply........ makes me wonder.
Tony Williams
41   Posted 09/05/2008 at 14:43:57

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"Posts on Toffeeweb, one of the better writers on there, must be either a current or ex journalist or similar, based in Portugal last we heard, whilst his ability to write is beyond question he?s like an Italian, all style and no substance. Posts are littered with his opinions in place of any substantial facts possibly due to his remote location, not believed to attend the match so probably forms these opinions from internet forums whilst doing what most people do, sitting on their arse doing nothing"

Don’t like to get involved in these kinds of issues but their response kind of sums up what Art initial stated. They don’t know Art from Adam but the tone of their response is not great. They have stated that his opinions are formed on reading post on forums, (why can’t he have his own?) if that was the case why is he not anti-Kirkby, as we are told the majority of posters, especially on this forum, are against it?

To finish it off they have a dig at other people sitting on their arse doing nothing.

Not going to get far with that attitude but then again he is not based in Liverpool so his views don’t matter perhaps?
Eugene Ruane
42   Posted 09/05/2008 at 15:34:20

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Tony Williams (and ?Art? for that matter) - You are forever peppering your posts with sentiments like "Don?t like to get involved in these kinds of issues but....", then DO get involved (are we not supposed to notice?)

As a ?criticism? of counter-arguments, you also appear to rely heavily on "With your tone..." and "With that attitude..." as though everything you write and HOW you write it, is irrittation free.

Believe me - it isn?t.

You need to know that for every post of mine, that has you tut-tutting in self-righteous indignation, due to the tone/language and/or content, there is a post from you(rselves) that has me fuming at what I see as lackyism/stupidity/gullibility.
Christine Foster
43   Posted 09/05/2008 at 16:38:00

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I originally posted one of several replies to this thread on my previous article. So, for the record my reply and a personal note to; I first attended an Everton game in 1962 and have been a season ticket holder for most of the intervening years. My family moved to Australia 5 years ago, yet I still manage to attend on average 9 home games and usually 4 away games every season. I was raised on Scotland Road and my family is still off Burlington Street. I am an Evertonian, no more or less than any one on this site. So forgive me a personal rant if I find it offensive that I should be used as being thought of as anything less because of my circumstances. At least I have used what skills I have in taking the issue to others in a way I hope they can relate.

The debate cannot progress unless the information on which any decisions are based are released by the club. It's debatable if that is going to happen. Personally I am angered by the approach the club has taken with respect to the disclosed facts that have contested the details released by the club. So much so, I believe, that this has been the cause of a continued lack of credibility in the board.

However, there cannot be a debate where no facts are given, where those that have been independently refuted and the club refuses to enter into any debate. THAT'S the problem. The debate has to move on to a point where by the club stand by its figures and prove as such or releases amended figs and answers questions on why.

I actually think the club will do nothing. It will carry on regardless and say nothing until a signed agreement is reached with Tesco. Herein lies both my concern and my issue that the board could and would do this. It would be such a callous disregard for its fanbase that would, as I have and will continue to do so, raise as an issue of Credibility, trust and integrity.

I agree that there needs to be a more focused attack on the financial aspects of the alleged deal of the century but there have been many accurate submissions that have reputed the many statements with respect to cost, safety, location , transport etc etc.. but I repeat as was the main theme of the thread, there needs to be an answer from the club. Even IF a focus group attacked the basis of the costs (which they have on numerous occasions) their ISN?T an acknowledgement, repudiation or comment from the club. It becomes a one sided shouting match.

Some have said it?s a question of poor PR but how can you put a positive spin on blatant untruths, concealment and a total disregard for ANY questions concerned about the intended move to Kirkby. I would hazard a guess that the PR machine at Goodison are praying to God that BK and KW keep their mouths shut because every time they open them they dig the hole a little deeper. They don?t deserve our trust. For they have shown no integrity and therefore have no credibility.

The concerns keep growing, as do the likely costs. £78m is starting to look even less likely as the STARTING figure with a smaller retail footprint and less cross subsidy. I echo Tom Hughes when he rightly asks why the volumes of Yes supporters have not been asking the searching questions of the board as well. Irrespective of ANY move, the questions need asking. The silence is deafening, the arrogance supreme.

Art Greeth
44   Posted 09/05/2008 at 16:42:04

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Eugene Ruane... do not attribute to me words or sentiments I have never thought, never mind uttered, as per your last post.

What I can categorically state is - as far as the stadium debate is concerned - because I appreciate it is an emotional issue I avoid personal insults and do not resort to calling people dolts, cunts and stupid as you do.

Interpret that as self-righteous indignation if you like. I call it common decency and basic courtesy.
Christine Foster
45   Posted 09/05/2008 at 16:41:43

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So, that clear enough? No "Rhetoric" Romantic" Diatribe" Just a plain request for the club to answer the fans. Simple enough? Plain enough?

Whether or not you are Yes or No on the debate, the recent facts and statements need answering by the club.

Art Greeth
46   Posted 09/05/2008 at 16:49:00

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Neil Adderley - Thanks for the fulsome reply. It made for interesting reading.

Not quite clear when you first met with the KEIOC guys you mention, so I?m not sure how long it is that they recognized that ?media communication was one of their major problems and that improving this was a key element of their future strategy? including improved press relations and internet campaign?. Whether that was some time ago or quite recently, have they been successful in that avowed goal? I don?t see it myself?

You say KEIOC told you that they see themselves as ?a pressure group, as opposed to a protest group? and that they ?don?t see any advantage in having a recruitment drive to simply boost the membership?. I have to say that reads as a contradiction in terms to me? surely, you can exert more pressure by having demonstrably more supporters in your camp than the opposing side? Nor do I see evidence of an ?increased and improved coverage, from KEIOC?s perspective? as they claim ? and I?m not ?incredibly naïve?. I have worked in journalism. Recent stories that have appeared, whilst possibly beneficial to KEIOC?s cause, have NOT been written BECAUSE of KEIOC ? they would and have appeared naturally, from other sources. So it is erroneous to conclude that KEIOC is making or shaping the news in some way. And if KEIOC wishes to challenge any match-going Evertonian to tell them that the majority of fans are in favour of this move, others can challenge them to concretely prove such a claim.

?? mass protests aren?t part of the rationale at KEIOC; you would need to form a protest group whose specific aim was to protest against a specific issue?? Help me here? just what IS KEIOC?s rationale, given their name, and what IS the specific issue? I find this response bewildering.

Now of course any development plan on this scale is likely to attract opposition and is vulnerable to a public enquiry, but an ?inevitable public enquiry??? Not yet, by a long shot. Nor is Knowsley employing a ?delaying tactic? by offering significant reductions on development. It is typical of any and every development of this scale. I doubt very much that any such development in the history of humankind has rigidly stuck to its original draft to the very last rivet.

I am not hostile to KEIOC, per se. I do have a mind of my own. I do not blindly and naively swallow the club party line. I do have concerns about the location. I do have concerns about the finances. Equally, I do have concerns that Everton Football Club is in danger of being little more than a quaint historical appendage to a bygone age of football in a decaying museum?

And finally, I?m not sure if I should be flattered or disturbed that I am ?known? to KEIOC. As it is, their pen sketch of me is a mixture of fact and opinion which anyone with half a mind could glean from reading my posts on here. Sadly again, it is biased towards the subjective rather than the objective. (Thanks to Tony Williams who also recognizes that?). Personally, I?m indifferent to what anyone posts about ME on the Internet, based solely on what they know about me FROM the Internet. Rather, their comment begs the questions:
1) Have KEIOC a database (including a personal descriptive as provided on me) on each and every person who has commented on the stadium debate?
2) If they have, what use are they putting that information to? If they haven?t, why do they compile personal files on only select individuals?

Both scenarios in 2) COULD be significant in that ? if KEIOC are truly that efficient ? they SHOULD be effecting a more telling recruiting drive and movement because they have identified sympathisers, whilst on the other hand they could have a system in place to effectively mobilise their supporters to attack an individual or view that does not tally with their own campaign.
Chad Schofield
47   Posted 09/05/2008 at 16:52:17

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Here, here Christine... my eyes hurt and it’s about beer O’clock.

Let’s hope we win tomorrow, or at leats get a point and keep 5th place. COYB!
Tony Williams
48   Posted 09/05/2008 at 16:45:49

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Eugene, feel free to post on here my numerous post where I have pointed out about people’s tones and attitude, as I seeming forever pepper my posts with them.

I don’t really pay attention to whom I am replying to except for Tony Marsh or Michael, as Tony makes me smile and MIchael runs this great website, so if it seems that I am targeting you I apologise but I’m sorry to say I don’t think of you that way.

I have never suggested that my posts are less irksome than others and and not daft enough to think they would but I would take my seeming "self-righteous indignation" attitude over your offensive comments "that has me fuming at what I see as lackyism/stupidity/gullibility"

I would love to see these many posts, especially on the Kirkby subject because I have said that I don’t like to touch these subject and I stay away from them as much as possible, as you get the "self-righteous indignant" posters like you who believes everything they post is correct and is intolerant of other people’s views.
Gerard Madden
49   Posted 09/05/2008 at 17:11:25

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No need to write an essay Mr. Adderley - so much ?bluster? and so little substance come to mind.........Anyways - you contradicted yourself big time with this paragraph - " The delaying tactic, by Knowsley, of offering significant reductions on the retail element will be seen as little more than a device to prevent these objections being lodged. KEIOC fully expect KMBC to be minded to grant planning permission and for the Secretary of State to immediately call a lengthy and expensive public enquiry at which this plan will be scrutinised in far greater detail". - Er I dont know how to tell you this...but.....if Tesco reduce the retail by 25-40% then that would 100% avoid a public enquiry (I think it will be avoided anyway) because its the retail size that the objections are directed at......

As to your point about the 82% against Kirkby (on the poll on the KEIOC site) - what a surprise....poll....keioc website.....ahem. I took the liberty of taking part in the survey....then I decided to do it once more.....it seems you can do this survey more than once! And KEIOC can monitor it day by day hour by hour - a highly reliable survey methinks - not! Once again I await the thousands of angry blues protesting yet again this Sunday. ;)

Eugene Ruane
50   Posted 09/05/2008 at 16:58:01

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Art - Here is something you wrote (I didn?t write it, Maurice Chevalier didn?t write it, YOU did)

"KEIOC and its supporters call attention to what they see as ?bad? news and naively conclude that they have scored a decisive point in the debate, whilst completely ignoring stories which possibly undermine their position"

(as Bill Hicks said, I have four questions. 1) Yes? 2) And? 3) So? 4) What?)

Ok, now here is something Tom Hughes wrote.

"Where is your protest to the club for not delivering on ANY of the promises you signed your name to..... A stadium for "practically nothing"; Saying there were no viable plan B?s due to financial constraints, then finding £78m for Kirkby to disprove that assertion; Saying there were no options when WHP was suggested to them via another supermarket at the same time; Saying it was the most accessible stadium in the country to then prove via its own transport plan that it wont even be more accessible than GP (which does not need a park and ride scheme to meet legislation)..."

He?s not addressing those questions specifically to you of course, but I use it as helps illustrate my initial point (er..yes there WAS!)

Oh and if you think his questions are bogus, can we hear why, or even better - you have the answers, I and many others would LOVE to hear them.

The point is not your analysis of KEIOC but WHY the analysis. That?s what I?m so curious about. Do you understand why a person might be baffled as to why you (or anyone else) chose KEIOC to focus on and not the club? I?ll be honest (someone has to be) I don?t trust ANY post pointing out how/why/where KEIOC are ?going wrong?. You have free will and had/have the following choice.

Focus on the short-comings of an amateur, voluntary protest/lobby group OR Focus on the actions of a highly paid organization who haven?t delivered on any of the promises you signed your name.....etc etc et-bleedin-cetera. You chose the former. Why?

You?re (obviously) very proud of your ability to call a spade a digging implement - I prefer to call things as I see them. I see your focus on KEIOC as, at best, stupid. And at at worst suspicious. Paranoid? Me? ABSOLUTELY!
Eugene Ruane
51   Posted 09/05/2008 at 17:44:26

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Tony Williams, what a genius debating tactic!

Gets me every time!

"I will not discuss cheese, I don?t discuss cheese, I haven?t discussed cheese, I?m not here to discuss cheese...

Hey, what do you think of this cheese?"

Tom Hughes
52   Posted 09/05/2008 at 18:14:54

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GM,
How do you explain the poll on Toffeeweb then?

They would 100% avoid an enquiry? Are you sure? I suggest you find out what the actual threshold is, and what the recent reductions mean in relation to these...... then I think you’ll need to look at your 100% certainty again. (Can you even tell me if the latest is less than the original outline figure?) After you have addressed that particular conundrum you may perhaps need to look at how that affects the subsidy via enabling....... Bluster indeed?
Art Greeth
53   Posted 09/05/2008 at 18:34:47

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Eugene ? my focus, as you call it, is not strictly on KEIOC, but more or on trying to gauge the true level of support for the anti-Kirkby camp. I am genuinely interested to know. KEIOC is alluded to because I perceive it as the flag ship for the anti vote. I don?t think I would be alone in such a presumption.

To assume I have only EVER focused on the short-comings of KEIOC as against NEVER questioning what you see as the failings of the club is a mistaken presumption on your part.

It is your right to consider my ?focus on KEIOC as, at best, stupid. And at at worst suspicious.? It is my right to consider your angry rhetoric and attempted put-downs of those who don?t concur with your view point as? dull.
David O'Keefe
54   Posted 09/05/2008 at 19:10:44

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The true level of support for the anti-kirby camp is growing all the time.

Have I out-maddened, Madden?
David O'Keefe
55   Posted 09/05/2008 at 19:12:57

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Given a choice, would anyone vote for Kirkby? Even you know the answer to that Art?
Dave Wilson
56   Posted 09/05/2008 at 19:16:54

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They're all on today
Madden is once again speaking for "most of us"
Tony Williams once again doesn't want to get involved in these kind of issues, but rest assured . . . . ..
Art "the journalist" Greeth cheered us all up by saying and finally, then went on and on .... and on
Huge entertainment while waiting for Kirkby to go belly up.
Mark Gray
57   Posted 09/05/2008 at 19:39:44

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Eugene and Neil fantastic posts.

Eugene I particularly liked your post...

"Off the field, Everton Football Club is absolute shambles. We lost £10m last year and £10m the year before. We are in loads debt. Without David Moyes this club would be in a terrible state. I just wish we had a Chairman and Board that would help David Moyes rather than hinder him with a meagre transfer budget.

Everton Football Club needs investment, more importantly we need a Board that can provide the funds and squad to help David Moyes get us into regularly into the champions league.

Our squad is thin and full of loanees, we need more strength in depth to move on"


Absolutely brilliant and begs the question why individuals like Art feel it necessary to devalue the impact KEIOC are having privately against the Desperation Kirkby proposals. KEIOC are so effective the club and Keith Wyness tried to silence the group with the threat of legal action. How stupid they are, any such action would backfire on the club spectacularly as the club would have to tell the truth in court!!!

Whilst the public perception of KEIOC from the Echo reading followers of the "Sheeples Club" can be easily manipulated, in private, the more knowledgeable and informed people that actually matter are in agreement with many of the issues raised by KEIOC.

KEIOC have been extremely effective following this avenue and no doubt will continue to be so until they achieve their initial objective.

Art, clearly KEIOC have you sussed, an ex-journo living in Portugal no less. Why do you focus so much to try and dismiss the KEIOC group? Surely if Kirkby was such a good deal you could sing its praises and convince everyone that Kirkby really is in the best interest of the club. Fortunately, you can?t as the Kirkby proposals are a disaster for the club so to seek support and sympathy you are having to move on to attacks on the group.

Stand by your conviction, persuade people that Kirkby is in our best interest. If not, realise that a good deal would not face such overwhelming opposition.

Move on Art, you?re posts are tedious.

Moving to Kirkby will be bad for Everton Football Club.
Brian Mathers
58   Posted 09/05/2008 at 20:33:52

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The way I see it is that Tesco can just keep amending their plans over a month (or three) until it gets passed, thus avoiding a public enquiry ? that's why I think we are going to Kirkby, because the only objections seem to be about the shops, not the stadium.

What's to stop Tesco submitting a planning application 18 months/2 years down the line for more shops when policies change? Ultimately Tesco would HAVE to fund any shortfall but with Leahy at thier helm surely that makes it more likely they would??? I mean they are going to get the country's biggest Tesco so it?ll be worth it for them.

David Kiely
59   Posted 09/05/2008 at 21:29:48

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Art Greeth? He sounds like a villain from a Superman story.

Anyway...."Art"...re KEIOC - I suppose it?s testament to the group that, whereas early in the campaign they were being villified as neanderthals *showing battle of Everton Valley videos* to any passing Kirkby resident, they now only have to put up with the type of patronising, pompous drivel people like you waste your time tapping out on your keyboard.

That?s progress, I suppose.

Jim Lloyd
60   Posted 09/05/2008 at 19:28:08

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An intersting debate! Art Greeth, I read your post and couldn?t quite understand whether you are; a), against the move to Kirkby, b), against anyone who is against the move to Kirkby or c), you have a particular interest in exploring and criticising everything that KEIOC do. That's probably me being a bit thick..apologies.

I notice that someone said that you live in Portugal. Could I ask you if this is so? Not that it really matters, as an Evertonian is an Evertonian, wherever they come from.

I live in Liverpool, not that it matters either but what really does matter..at least in my humble opinion, is that Everton stay in Liverpool.

I read Paul Lally?s article and found it totally explains how a lot of Evertonians feel about this proposed move. It also endorses the reactions that I have got from my Red Jessie mates. They cannot believe their good fortune that we are leaving the city to them.

To you and a number (small from what I read) it doesn?t matter. Comments like "Kirkby is in Liverpool" "It?s only just over the border" "It doesn?t matter anyway" "Its the only alternative we?ve got" "Its gonna cost us nothing" "Well it's only gonna cost a few millions" "We can't aford to redevelop Goodison" "The Loop is just a red herring and won?t take a 50,000 seater stadium." "Walton Hall Park was only thought of after we voted to move."

I?ve read all these observations from the same few contributors over and over again. When Tom Hughes shows that Goodison could be redeveloped he is attacked. When it is shown that we could build a stadium at the loop, it is derided as a red herring.

Now, unless the contributors on here who support the move to Kirkby, want this above all other options, then it seems to me that it is right that the club be pressured into telling us exactly why the alternatives cannot/will not work. I would also think they would understand that that those fans who believe this move will see the demise of Everton, would want to see the club explore every possible option before such a move.

I do not see why such a microscopic critique and questioning every motive/move and perceived failing of KEIOC should seem to be your goal.

I would consider that the club has every right to move to Kirkby if it so wishes. But I do not consider they have that right by saying that it was the fans choice. I don?t know how many of the 10,000 who voted No, want to take some form of further action to protest at what they see as a stitch up. I can only say that I?ve not met many fans who want the Kirkby move.

Personally, I?d love to see a movement like the Sons of Satan, oops Spirit of you know who, spring up amongst us. If this proposal was ever presented to that lot, there would be an absolute riot. Try telling them that, if they moved to Kirkby, they would still be in Liverpool.

Tony Williams
61   Posted 09/05/2008 at 22:35:48

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"Tony Williams once again doesnt want to get involved in these kind of issues, but rest assured . . . . .."

Dave Wilson, I will gladly bow down to your reasoning if you can find over 10 posts in the last 10 months where I have joined in on a direct discussion about Kirkby.

I discussed it directly after the aftermath of the ballot but I find it tedious and repetative with the same old angry arguments getting rolled out, on either side, again and again and again and I especially find it tedious when a poster puts forward a non contraversial, well written post and you get the few idiots on again being personal and derogative.

I was put in pre-mod because MIchael thought some of my posts did not add to a certain debate, I would expect the same with your pointless post as well, adds nothing at all but trying to be insulting to three posters on here in the space of 5 sentences.

Bravo
Terry Maddock
62   Posted 09/05/2008 at 22:32:53

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What a surprise. Another ?Destination Kirkby? advocate crawls out of his cave and guess what? It?s yet another one that lives a thousand or so miles away from Liverpool. yet another one with loose links to the city shouting the odds. Yet another who hasn?t got a clue what the community in the streets of Walton, Kirkdale, Everton, Kenny, Fairfield, Anfield and Tuebrook think about this. yet another one who doesn?t bevvy round town every week and encounters 100% Evertonians who are sick at the thought of moving out to Kirkby and encounters 100% LFC fans who are gloating uncontrollably about having the city to themselves. Who are these people who voted Yes to move to Kirkby, I once asked in the salutation a long time ago...do they exist? "Yes they do, they live in counties and countries many miles away, they talk with strange accents, and they listen whole heartedly to what the club tells them because they don?t speak to the average Evertonian on the streets of Merseyside".
Tony Williams
63   Posted 09/05/2008 at 23:01:14

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Terry I see nothing in the opening post to say Art is an advocate of Kirkby at all, he is simply asking a question about KEIOC and how successful they have been and I suppose, if it was worth it.

He in fact has a go at the board but I suppose as he doesn’t live in Liverpool now, he is not a proper Evertonian anymore and his views don’t count?

Maybe I am a bit naive but I thought the ballot was among season ticket and share holders, so how can people living in a country far far away effect the vote such?
David Kiely
64   Posted 09/05/2008 at 23:30:30

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Alan Willo - is this your last, last, last post on the stadium debate?
Jim Lloyd
65   Posted 09/05/2008 at 23:47:27

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Terry, an Evertonian is an Evertonian, whether they come from Liverpool or from London or anywhere else. We should all feel comfortable to express our views amongst ourselves.
It seems to me that some contributers to the debate want to appear to be all for open debate but in reality want to send us up blind alleys and cul de sacs. I think we are wasting our time responding to them. They will never change their views and sometimes I can’t escape the feeling that they have very close links with the club...but thats just me being paranoid. I get the feeling that there are a lot of us Evertonians who don’t really know how to protest. If we do, somehow we think we will hurt the club. Myself, I’d hope enough of us could get together and become a united voice. I’m not going to the match again until the club come out and tell me why none of the alternatives to Kirkby are viable. Yourself? Do you think enough of us could get together to make Kenwright and Wyness think again about what the bloody hell they are doing?
Gerard Madden
66   Posted 10/05/2008 at 00:07:03

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Well Terry, I dont know where Art lives but one thing I cant be accused of is an outsider - a born ?n bred scouser who spent 35 years of my life in Anfield before moving all the way to................Dovecot. You simply have to accept that away from small messageboards ?n forums ( (C) ol? Gedney ) that most blues support the move as evidenced by the democratic ERS ballot and the (draws breath!) lack of regular or indeed ANY protests by thousands or even hundreds o? blues - where you one of the legendary couple o? dozen protestors btw? LOL . Come for a chat with ol? Gedney if you like to my regular pre-match pub - i?ll be in the Cabbage (Breck Road) for at least three quarters of an hour before our match on Sunday with six others - ALL of us local and five of which voted ?yes? and one ?no?er who has since changed his mind. I look forward to a pre-match chuckle at your desperate pontifications and your ?proof? that 100% of local blues are against the move. ;)
Jim Lloyd
67   Posted 10/05/2008 at 01:32:35

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Well Gerard,

You reckon most Blues support this move!
What was the voting figures? about 15,000 in favour...and that figure was reached on the premise that there was no alternative (no plan B.) Yet 10,000 still voted against the move. Our average gates are around 38,000. You somehow come to the conclusion that the majority of Evertonians support the move!! Over 10,000 didn't vote. No one can say why but it is enough to say that there is considerable doubt about where we go from here.

That would suggest to me that there is enough division in the club to pause for thought. If Everton do not get the 50,000 regular crowds they seem to think will turn up to the new stadium, then what? No money to pay off the debts, no money for players and the a shrinking support... and all you can think of is having a chuckle at someone?s quite genuine concerns of what the future holds for his club!!

Michael Kenrick
68   Posted 10/05/2008 at 07:06:17

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Okay children, that’s enough of this personal stuff. You all seem to have moved far enough from what was a pretty good topic. Thanks for that. It’s now closed.
Dave Wilson
69   Posted 10/05/2008 at 06:17:16

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Gerrard

I?ll take up the invitation you issued to Terry, I have never agreed with a single word you've said but would be more than happy to buy you a pint

A small challenge before hand, rather than meet 45 minutes before the game, we meet 2 hrs before, we then visit each pub on County Rd, there will be thousands and thousands of hard core Evertonians, In each pub, if you find me 6 people prepared to say they voted yes, I will buy you a drink ? of your choice ? and make a small donation to a charity ? again of your choice. Somehow I think you?ll end up sober and I?ll keep me money

Oh, I almost forgot, your forfiet: well, we know mine and I trust you're an honourable man. Luckily for you and your wallet I will not be drinking ? just water ? so rather than post here about your percieved "couple of hundred trouble makers" on Monday, you post an honest assessment of the overwhelming majority of ordinary Evertonians that YOU have seen for yourself who are vehemently against this move

You Gerrard, are invited into the world of the hard core Evertonian. In many cases, they are not well off, they can't all afford a season ticket, hence they don't get a vote. They are generally peace-loving people who just love their club, hence they don't take to the streets, nor will they participate in protest that may well be detrimental to the team their lives revolve around.

Terry Maddock is 100% right, all Evertonians are entitled to their views but how on earth did we arrive at a situation where a well off, two-match-a-season blue, has a vote and the guy who spends all of his disposable weekly income travelling around the uk with EFC doesn't?

These guys will follow Everton to Hell and back, they ARE Everton. In the relative comfort of your Dovecot home, you seem to have lost sight of the soul of this club, you're cordually invited to rediscover it

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