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Yes or No?

By John  Hughes :  22/05/2008 :  Comments (158) :
I am an Evertonian. Unfortunately I now find myself in a very strange position of been "pigeon-holed" into a particular category of Evertonian. I don't know how many times, when I 've met a fellow Evertonian (who I don't know) I've been asked Yes? or No?

I've followed very closely the views and articles regarding the stadium issue on this site and the "Should we stay or should we go?" debate. Very apt that the name of the group to sing a similar sounding song was The Clash. Which is exactly what we are doing. Clashing.

There is a split of opinion. It's now a very different split of opinion from the original Vote. Numerous articles have appeared regarding the vote and the legitimacy of it and if infact it can even be called a vote. A mandate is what the club called it and they got their desired response. Was it a true reflection of what the fans want? Or was it a reflection of having nothing else to say Yes too?

I don't know what the vote would be now. This is the most contentious decision in the club's History. Will moving to Kirkby "Kill the Club"? Will staying "Kill the Club"? Who's the beneficiary here? Who's spending more? Who stands to gain more? Which part of the project is the "Enabling" part? IS it the Tesco superstore acting as the Enabling project for the Stadium or is it that the Stadium is the Enabling part for the Superstore? Does it matter?

What we do know for a fact is that the information given to everybody eligible to vote, however you interpreted it, has changed. We all know the major points, "World Class" now equals Mid Range "Practically Free" now means £78M. These are just two points. There are more, I know there are, but this is the example I am using.

Because of the change in the acts given for the original vote, isn't it prudent, moral, equitable, fair and honest to re-issue the vote based on the information (facts) which are now at the disposal of the club? Whether you are a Yes voter or a No voter, surely you will be interested to know just what the official situation is regarding the mandate on the Stadium?

No-body has anything to lose - Yes voters will be vindicated if they are the majority - No voters the same. However, at this very moment in time, neither "Group" have any idea what the facts are regarding the mandate. More importantly neither do the Club. If Kirkby really is the way the majority of Evertonians want to go, then this will be proved once and for all with a new mandate. The new vote should include all the relevent up-to-date information and can be issued in exactly the same way as the first vote.

For the No voters, this means that you will then have all the information required to make a decision. There will be no information regarding "Alternatives" because there wasn't in the original mandate. For the Yes voters, you will be given all the facts which should support and re-inforce your decision that you made the right choice.

The information which accompanied the original vote is out of date. No longer relevant to the situation we now find ourselves in. The stadium pictures and graphics may not have changed. But the information we were given regarding infrastructure, costs, and stadium rating have changed. This means that what you voted for, whether that be Yes or No, is no longer what you will be getting.

Therefore rather than continuing the split which is driving a wedge deeper between you and your fellow Evertonians and Club, damaging the rapport between the Everton family, I call on all Evertonians, Yes or No voters to come together and ask the club to re-run the vote with all the current facts. Allow all Evertonians eligible to vote in the first instance the chance to reflect on their decision and recast their vote. This is the ONLY way the Club, you and I will ever know what the fans are feeling now. It's the ONLY way we can finally answer the question Yes or No?

This isn't about stopping "Destination Kirkby" - This is about Everton FC once again gaining the trust of the Everton Support and proving once and for all that Everton Truely are the People's Club. This is not about Kirkby, It's not about the Loop and it's not about Tesco. This is about Everton Football Club ? Yes or No?

Reader Comments

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Anthony Horabin
1   Posted 22/05/2008 at 14:44:12

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I can’t see the club issuing another vote.
Gerard Madden
2   Posted 22/05/2008 at 14:49:38

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Yet another ?brand new angle? from one of the remaining ?no?s. Yes lets keep having votes until you get the result YOU want. ;) Of course the whole premise of the article is wrong - the facts havent changed from the vote, most of the £78M the club will have to find will easily be found by naming rights and sale of Goodison/Bellefield, so therefore still a great deal. Just another rant from the remaining ?few? but keep ?em coming. ;)
Erik Dols
3   Posted 22/05/2008 at 14:48:09

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It won’t happen.

It sounds a bit like Chavez, the Venezuelan President, who had an election about changing the law to make him president ’forever’. He didn’t get the desired majority, but he immediately declared that he would have a re-election the next year. And if he didn’t get his mandate, another referendum the next year. And so on, and so on, as long as it would take to get what he desired. We are NOT some banana republic in Latin America! You can’t just expect to keep on having votes over and over again.

And mind you, I’m in the No-camp, so I think a new vote would suit my cause. But it is really ridiculous to ask for it. The club got its mandate, move on.

I deliberately didn’t enter any arguments pro or con the move as I think that’s not what this article is about.
Michael Kenrick
4   Posted 22/05/2008 at 15:01:17

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Gerard Madden, the facts have changed since the vote. You get to post your opinion, to the point where it becomes abusive (and you are very close to that line) but please do not use this forum to post obvious falsehoods.
David O'Keefe
5   Posted 22/05/2008 at 14:59:55

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Thanks for that Keith, er I mean Gerrard.

Erik, your right another vote will not be given, but the mandate they have received is tarnished as the truth is revealed.

Talking of votes; Everton and Tesco are currently being investigated for a breach of electoral rules in the recent local elections.
John Hughes
6   Posted 22/05/2008 at 14:56:45

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Gerrard Madden - Your class mate. Put another smile on my face.

Erik, I thought he played for United?????? Your right it’s not about pro’s and cons! It’s about being kept informed with the facts. We shouldn’t confuse the vote as a political vote. This is about what’s best for Everton Football CLub and as we (the supporters) will be here far longer than any other part of EFC we deserve to know and have a say in this decision. If Kirkby is the place to be then so be it. But we would be doing ourselves and the club a misjustice if we didn’t keep abreast of the facts. If these facts prove that kirkby is beyond a shadow of a doubt an unbeatable deal then ok. In the same manner if any of the facts point to a down turn in the original charter then we need to address those concerns early. We need ensure that it is worth the project continuing and we need to ensure that we are big enough to say ok It’s a no go for whatever reason. Or we can’t beat this deal. Don’t take it as it’s the only deal on the table. Just because it is doesn’t mean it’s the best deal. It doesn’t mean it it’s not the best deal either. We just need to mintor it and keep proof. It’s basic project management. You start, control&monitor the middle making yes no decisions along the way. and it it’s still viable you complete. If its not it’s bought to a controlled end and back to the drawing board. For however long it takes.
Anthony Horabin
7   Posted 22/05/2008 at 15:09:06

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The mandate is only tarnished depending on your point of view.
David O'Keefe
8   Posted 22/05/2008 at 15:15:52

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Care to give us your point of view, Anthony?
Anthony Horabin
9   Posted 22/05/2008 at 15:20:33

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My view is that Everton are going to build a new stadium in Kirkby because they got more yes votes.
Erik Dols
10   Posted 22/05/2008 at 15:18:42

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John H., agree on your points, I’m not accepting we will move anyway. I expect that Tesco will not get the green light for their plans, that they need to downsize it and that that will make the stadium too expensive for Everton.

I just wanted to state that there won’t be another vote. The club got it’s mandate and it’s up to them to decide that the current plans still fit in that mandate and are in the bets interest of the club. I honestly believe that if rumours are true and retail plans are going to be downsized, the club (Kenwright) will call in the deal and start looking for other options.
Peter Howard
11   Posted 22/05/2008 at 15:19:17

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I?ve said it before but it?s worth repeating: the vote/ mandate was a mistake on the Board?s part. It should never have been granted. It gave the false impression that the fans were being empowered. The Board should have been strong enough to make the decision without reference to the fans (as every other club which has moved ground has done). For my part, I think BK was well intentioned in putting it to a vote but equally one could say that he merely passed the buck to the fans. Either way, it has inevitably resulted in a division amongst the fans and the factioning we are now seeing.
Lyndon Lloyd
Editorial Team
12   Posted 22/05/2008 at 15:50:20

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While I'm here, voting closes in our latest Kirkby poll in the next few days so if you haven't voted, now's your chance.

Madden: "...most of the £78M the club will have to find will easily be found by naming rights and sale of Goodison/Bellefield"

How do you say this stuff with a straight face? "Most" of £78m is, by definition, more than half ? i.e. £39m. ? and that?s just the figure we?re talking about now. It?s likely to be a lot higher when all is said and done.

Goodison?s value has been estimated at £15m on the high end, I?m sure the money from Bellefield ? if planning permission for the proposed development there is ever granted and we actually see the money from it ? has already been spent, and, as has been discussed many times on these pages, we?d have to get a better naming rights deal than did Arsenal to raise that £39m+ you feel is so easily achieved.

Anthony Horabin
13   Posted 22/05/2008 at 16:17:46

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What will the new stadium be worth to secure the borrowing against?
Gavin Ramejkis
14   Posted 22/05/2008 at 16:23:22

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Anthony it’s also pointless asking the value of the new stadium to borrow against as the terms will be lease NOT owned, maybe KW Enterprises in one of it’s many guises might be able to answer you.
Mike Allison
15   Posted 22/05/2008 at 16:29:28

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Lyndon, I’m afraid the Kirkby Poll your comment links to leaves out two sections of potential voters. I was neither for nor against at the time of the first vote, I just couldn’t make my mind up. I didn’t want to move to Kirkby but what looked like a clever deal for us had me sitting on the fence. I’m now against because the deal doesn’t look so clever, and I suspect there must be a few others like me, although the ’don’t knows’ are rarely a vocal group. I’d be interested to know how many others have made their minds up since the vote.
Andy MacFarlane
16   Posted 22/05/2008 at 16:39:29

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Gavin, please, not the old "we won?t own the stadium" red herring again? I repeat, over 75% of houses in Mersesyide are leasehold. Do we not "Own" our houses? Of course we do. Leasehold does not equate to "rented".
Dave Griffin
17   Posted 22/05/2008 at 16:47:36

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Any arguments about the stadium move are pointless anyway, because it won?t happen. Why? Because the Everton Board are incompetant and will fuck the whole thing up. Everton will still be at Goodison long after most of us have departed to that great football ground in the sky.
Peter Howard
18   Posted 22/05/2008 at 16:53:49

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Spot on Andy. Gavin it is leased at a ?peppercorn rent ? on a 999-year lease which equates to it being freehold and would therefore be ?mortgageable?.
David Kiely
19   Posted 22/05/2008 at 17:04:44

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Erik Dols -

Re Chavez: the Venezualan referendum wasn?t about "changing the law to make him president ?forever?" - it was about removing the obstacle to people running for office again when they have served a couple of terms....you might recognise the system - we live in one in this country.

You?re equally wide of the mark over Kirkby: "The club got it?s mandate and it?s up to them to decide that the current plans still fit that mandate and are in the bets interest of the club.".

Do you honestly believe these people are there to ?do the best for the club?? And what ?mandate?? The one to give us a deal of the century? The mandate for that went west after they revealed this is £78M and counting.

Good grief.
Gavin Ramejkis
20   Posted 22/05/2008 at 17:13:55

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So how do smart arses explain how we sell the already mortgaged Goodison Park and still clear as Lyndon says it’s maximum market value of £15m? For anyone gullible enough to buy KW’s nonsense I’ve a warehouse full of tartan paint, boxes of sparks for grinders and stacks of long weights.
Peter Howard
21   Posted 22/05/2008 at 17:18:17

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Gavin, how are you going to sell your mortgaged house?
Tony Williams
22   Posted 22/05/2008 at 17:38:13

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I am firmly with Peter Howard on this one. It was a disgusting decision to put the clubs future in the hands of irrational and passionate football fans.

It is "their" company and should have just said, "We?re moving". There would have been uproar for a while but I doubt there would have been such a large divide with getting close on hatred by some in each camps.

Poor PR stunt that went their way but backfired also.

In regards to the opening post. Why should a new vote/mandate take place? If the Nos get it this time are the Yeses alright to ask for a re revote? And so on and so on?
Gavin Ramejkis
23   Posted 22/05/2008 at 18:02:25

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Peter if I was going to sell my house I would have to move the remainder of the debt onto the new mortgage - but then again I?m not claiming to have the full value of my property available am I unlike KW who apparently you believe every word of in claiming the sale of Goodison and Bellefield together with naming rights would make up the stadium that would cost next to nothing.
Boris Berezofski
24   Posted 22/05/2008 at 19:04:05

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Why not run a new vote once a month? Let's throw good money after bad at an independent service to count up and officiate in each vote.

Why not ask, how those that have labeled the stadium to be, ?mid range? how they would label Goodison currently.

I have found the loudest ?No? voters are those season ticket holders with the prime seats that have perfect views. It is they that wish to condemn other blues to very poor, very restricted views. Such condemnation is selfish.

People's Club - it will be nice when all the people can see the team.
Anthony Newell
25   Posted 22/05/2008 at 19:15:43

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Erik, as someone who knows quote a bit about the Chavez situation due to family, I?d agree with you regarding the re-election type bollocks that you draw comparison with. What I would take exception with is calling Venezuela a ?banana republic? - they are one of the richest oil producing nations in the world but unfortunately run by one ?banana republic? minded buffoon. Fortunately, there are still many there (like there are Evertonians here) who can see through the madness of his ideas and challenge them. Come to mention it, he reminds me a bit of Bully Beef - a similar syle of head in sand, obstinate and ill-thought through type thinking all round
Jip Foster
26   Posted 22/05/2008 at 19:17:41

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I thought that the money from Bellefiled couldn’t be spent on the new stadium - part of the planning permission.
Gareth Humphreys
27   Posted 22/05/2008 at 19:47:46

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There seems to be an awful lot of No voters ready to put their thoughts down in long winded rationalised arguments; however, there does not seem to be the same input from the Yes Voters.

For the sake of anyone with splinters in their arse, would a Yes Voter like to pen such an item to put their point of view accross ?

Gerard Madden, come on down...
Dave Wilson
28   Posted 22/05/2008 at 19:19:24

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"The facts havent changed"
what facts would they be? Every time a claim made in the work of fiction that accompanied our ballot papers is exposed as more pie in the sky, the confidence of the Yes man erodes a little more.

There would never be another vote because BK + KW know even the most gullible have long since realised they?ve been had. Fear not though guys, they?ll fuck it up all by themselves

Bob Turner
29   Posted 22/05/2008 at 20:20:52

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Gareth

If you really believe that there has not been any input from "Yes" voters, then either you’re new to the site, or you’re not looking hard enough.

I have seen many a posting from someone in favour of the move, and have posted myself.

I don’t know how you’d go about reading these posts, but personally, I’m not going to repeat the same points over and over again.

But please don’t assume that those in favour of the move are going to be moved to post as prolifically as those against - it is normal that those who are aggrieved are going to be more vocal than those who are getting what they want.
Ajamu Mutumwa
30   Posted 22/05/2008 at 21:13:22

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John Hughes.

You can re-run the poll a thousand times, and the No to Kirkby campaign will still not win.

10,000 people didn?t vote.

Nobody can say that all of this was a result purely of dodgy dealings on the part of Everton (a falsehood portrayed on this site a few times).

We don?t know how those 10,000 would have voted, and 2,396 articles from the esteemed organs of toffeeweb doesn?t turn a minority view into a majority.

It just means 2,396 articles saying the same thing with nothing new to add, speaking to the same receptive audience and not drawing in new "converts".

I don?t know what the issue is about Gerard Madden (I don?t really want to know), but I can say Michael Kenrick , that I?ve seen many "falsehoods" on behalf of the "No to Kirkby campaign" paraded as facts in this site.

Or is the campaign so desperate that only "No to Kirkby" supporters can proclaim any old shit as fact?
Ed Fitzpgerald
31   Posted 22/05/2008 at 22:15:36

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Ajamu

I would just like them to re-run it once and not in August please. Somehow I would think that apathetic/undecided/on holiday 10,000 would vote this time.

It won’t happen of course the club won’t even have an open debate (surely this should have happened before the vote?) or let someone bring an anti-kirkby banner in the ground. e.g Park End after the Newcastle game? Why because they are scared of the consequences and of being found out. It is normal in a vote to have some viable alternatives to vote for, not move to Kirkby or the ground is going to rot!! The opposition are meant to be able to construct a counter argument as well ,all opportuntities denied.

Some people will say it is a private enterprise that does not need the consensual support from its patrons but football clubs are political, social and cultural institutions as well as a business. Wyness and Kenwright have forgotten this and if they move to Kirkby, I hope for all yes voters sakes they conjure up an awful lot of new supporters because they will be losing some thats for sure.

The misleading marketing, PR and heavy handed conduct of the whole destination kirkby project has been shameful. A club that sues its own supporters for what? defamation? putting an alternative view forward. Disgraceful!
Colin Wordsworth
32   Posted 22/05/2008 at 22:50:33

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Ed

It was a simple vote....Kirkby or not!...

Of course the club were going to be positive about the deal, it would be incredibly naive of you, me or anybody else to think otherwise!

At least we got a vote, with the majority voting for!

Forget the cost, forget the transport, or any of the bogus complaints......the debate is purely down to location.......but the majority voted for this, the opportunity was there, the no vote lost.

Don’t you think that the club has searched these other alternatives?

We need a partner fullstop....otherwise we cannot afford anything.

Disgraceful....no, resourceful......yes!

Tony Williams
33   Posted 22/05/2008 at 23:32:16

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Gareth there are lots of threads from No voters because they are a) Still aggrieved with the outcome of the vote and b) Want to vent their anger. There are possibly hundreds of articles/threads about the posibility of Kirkby but they all say the same thing, the only diference is that it is a different poster putting the same points in their own words

The Yes voters, I surmise, are not posting because a) They have already obtained the outcome they desired, so why hard on about it? And b) What?s the point? They are not going to change the No voters? minds and it could come across as looking like they are gloating which will then trigger off another lengthy debate/argument which will simply have the rehashing and reposting of the same points over and over again.
David O'Keefe
34   Posted 22/05/2008 at 23:42:32

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Colin, you are a piss-poor wind-up merchant.

Ajamu, care to list those falsehoods?
Andy Crooks
35   Posted 22/05/2008 at 23:43:56

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For God?s sake Gerard give it a rest. Some of us disagree with you. You talk about "the remaining few" as if you?re picking us off with the logic of your mighty argument. Why don?t you try advancing a convincing argument instead of posting your usual high-handed nonsense?
Ed Fitzgerald
36   Posted 22/05/2008 at 23:38:03

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Colin
The club signed an exclusivity deal that prevented them from considering any alternatives. As for naivety I think that jibe is best levelled at those of you who opted for the
? Deal of the Century
? It will cost us what was it again? ? (not £78 fucking million was it?)
? The world class stadium - (Cologne, Shalke ring any bells)
These are things you voted for aren?t they??
If you want to make a virtue about being economical with the truth (resourceful you would call it) then so be it but I can see no virtue in any of it. In fact I teach my kids that lying is not a good thing to do! Location is of course at the centre of debate but that does not negate all the other factors that will make Destination Kirkby (if it happens) a farce. A simple vote it was not a sly manipulative piece of political sleight of hand it was.
Neil Pearse
37   Posted 22/05/2008 at 23:44:49

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Gareth, I have posted many many times on this site saying that, on balance, I still think that going to Kirkby is the best option we have when we have a lot less choice than we would ideally like. We are not a rich club anymore, however much many posters on this site would like to believe that we still are.

One of the reasons Yes voters like myself don’t post that much is that we abused by No voters as sheep and worse, and idiotically told that we believe every word that comes out of KW’s mouth. Most of us are not naive and understand that KW was clearly in favour of Kirkby and was putting the best possible case for it. We could and can still make up our own minds about it.

The other reason is that the only other plausible option that No voters have ever come up with that we could afford is redeveloping Goodison. All other options are plainly unaffordable. One section of No voters plainly agrees with this by vehemently maintaining that we can’t even afford Kirkby. This is of course a completely different section of No voters from the fantasists who still maintain against all evidence that we can afford to build a world class stadium in the city.

That No voters as a group haven’t grasped yet that they are putting forward two completely contradictory arguments also makes continued debate a little frustrating.
Ajamu Mutumwa
38   Posted 22/05/2008 at 23:57:36

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Ed Fitzpgerald

When Labour publishes a manifesto extolling the virtues of the Tories, (their idea is great, but ours is better) or vis vera, I?ll believe that you have a valid argument.

A balanced argument doesn?t happen in real life. It never has. Why should Everton be the first to break a long established tradition? Its an unrealistic expectation.

David OKeefe

You want me to name some falsehoods? OK

1. The allegation that Kenwright / Wyness is pressing ahead with the Kirkby project purely because they are gettting some form of kick back.

Pure Falsehood, but it sounds good as a conspiracy.

2. That Everton deliberately fiddled the voting disenfranchising 10,000 people who didn?t vote. There were some difficulties, but 10,000? That would be fraud on a massive stall.

3. Electoral Reform Service (who conducted the vote) are somehow untrustworthy. This is a body trusted by a range of organisations to conduct free and fair elections, including all Trade Union elections.

Will that do Ed?
David O'Keefe
39   Posted 23/05/2008 at 00:12:11

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Neil, you are constructing a straw man.

The issue with Kirkby is not just cost, but that the supposed financial benefit is a £10 million pound increase in turnover. When the cost ranged from zero to £35 million its a good deal, but it won?t enable the club to compete with the big four.

Then there is transport, identity issues, the split fan base.

As for other options, that is up to the club heirarchy that stated there is no plan B.

Neil, you are defending a man who is badly in need of a calculator. Moving to kirkby for an extra £10 million was a bad idea no matter the cost of the stadium in my book.

Ed Fitzgerald
40   Posted 23/05/2008 at 00:18:02

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Afraid not Ajamu

It is too late to argue apart from saying that I disagree with your assertions. The whole debate both depresses and infuriates me in equal measure. Your trust in people who have misled us over aspects of this deal and many other finance issues before is touching.
If you go the game enjoy your time at the Tescodrome or whatever it will be called.
Colin Wordsworth
41   Posted 23/05/2008 at 00:43:01

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Ed

Whatever way you wish to take my comments..... bothered not!

It WAS a free vote.......and who really knows how much it will cost? I do know this though......we can?t afford much! ...so it probably still is ?the deal of the century?

It?s just like groundhog day listening to the same old crap!.... Meet reality.....stop dreaming!

Tony Williams
42   Posted 23/05/2008 at 00:51:52

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You see this is a prime example Gareth why the yes voters don’t post thread after thread after thread. The same outcome is inevitable.

You will have boths sides putting their points/arguments/rants across and nothing will be solved for hundreds of posts then someone else will retitle the issue and it will start again.
Christine Foster
43   Posted 23/05/2008 at 00:13:45

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The fact of the matter is that the club will not hold another vote. Politically it would admit to the fact that the premise was wrong and their actions to date would be used (even more so than now) to condemn the business decisions taken (no matter what the "good intentions" were).

It is far more likely that the cost of the project will be the deciding factor over the issue of whether the club move to Kirkby or not. Pragmatically the club has already shown it will not listen to or tolerate any dissent to the move. Its arrogance is a result of the fact that it has played the wrong hand and made the wrong call. Now it's either going to be a case of "how do we get out of this mess we are in?" (and believe me, they are in a mess financially and politically in continuing this move) or alternatively they will drive through any roadblock to acheive Destination Kirkby.

The Board is between a rock and a hard place, there is no magic solution to cost and poor choices that seem to get poorer by the day.

At which point do Yes voters say that the deterioration of the concept, the financial burden or the ancillary issues of location transport and the views of the people of Kirkby... become too much to be acceptable? At what point will even the most ardent Yes voter say... Ok... that's not going to work?

Let me be clear. There are two critical issues that have resulted from the whole debate.

1. The Kirkby project itself and the viability of it and yes, ANY other location.

2. The lack of professionalism that has tarnished the Board's credibility, due to the decisions that have proved to be incorrect, false and their obstinance in ignoring and dismissing any concern of supporter or stakeholder.

Either one in a real business world would bring a Board to its knees. But this isn?t business anymore this is entertainment.

The club have not repsonded to any concerns. Not responded to any statements regarding ongoing cost of viability of the project. The board has continued with an open-ended exclusitivity agreement that it could suspend at ANY poin of its own checks. It hasn?t done so. Which tells you they are either in too deep and haven?t got the guts to do so, incompetant or still actually believe they can pull it off.

The benefits for Everton FC have to be written on one side of the ledger. The benefits for the board and its members need to be written on the other side.

Until this happens and some truth and real facts are given, the club has NO MANDATE to continue.
Tony Williams
44   Posted 23/05/2008 at 00:55:40

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"Until this happens and some truth and real facts are given, the club has NO MANDATE to continue"

Interesting point but ultimately flawed because simply put, in another posters words, it is Kenwright's trainset and he can do with it what he likes (as long as the board goes along with it)

The vote happened and it was a Yes vote, no debating will ever change that fact and Kenwright obtained the decision he wanted, I have often said that it was a disgusting PR stunt to give us, the irrational fans, a vote on such a massive economical decision for the club, however the gamble paid off and now he can do what he wants and I don?t understand why fans feel he should do anything he doesn?t want to do and why he should hold another ballot just because they are pissed off with the outcome.

Yes, of course the info pack with the voting slip was incredible biased, I am not naive enough to think otherwise but my vote wasn?t based on what was on that glossy print out but what I thought was best for the club at the time.

You state that the club will not hold another vote and they shouldn?t have to just to appease the people who were not happy with the outcome of the first one.

It should never have been put to us in the first place!
Gerard Madden
45   Posted 23/05/2008 at 01:30:57

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Chrissy love - you should know by now that you’ve fell into ol’ Geds trap by mentioning the club has no mandate - in my opine the club has one helluva mandate, in the democratic ERS ballot only 28% of eligable voters got off their backsides to vote ’no’, out of those who actually cared enough about the issue to vote it was 60-40 in favour of the move. You mention the people of Kirkby again - well they’ve just had their own ballot and 60% of those who voted across the town voted for the ruling Labour Party, Labour won ALL of the seats, I should point out too that the turnout in Kirkby was between 20-30%, so thats 70-80% of Kirkby who dont give a fig about the issue anyway. You simply cant lecture anyone about mandates. ;)
Dave Wilson
46   Posted 23/05/2008 at 04:46:58

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Neil
"The no voter hasnt grasped yet that putting forward two completely contradictory arguments makes continued debate a little frustrating"

What makes you think there are just two reasons? Every No voter will have his own principle reason for voting No, but there are so many reasons, how could they all possibly be the same? Kirkby falls down on so many levels.

Even people claiming to be the most optimistic of Yes voters are predicting probable crowds of around 35,000, that's 15,000 empty seats (extendable to 25,000). You settled for that?

The custodians of this club plan to take one of the oldest and finest footballing institutions in the world, from one of the most instanly recognisable city?s in the world, to some wasteland thus rendering the world famous Everton no more than the latest Wigan / Bolton... You settled for that?

As I enviously watched the Portmouth victory parade, my dreams turned to Everton triumphantly parading down Scotland Rd entering Town to the unbridled joy of hundreds of thousands of blues, Remember the feeling? Beats a quick drive up to Kirkby town hall all day doesnt it, but, You settled for that too

Imagine if we all married the first bird we met, coz she was the best option at the time ? fearing we may never get another bird ? what if we all bought the first house, or the first car we saw?

I could list 20 reasons for voting No; I love our club, I believe it to be the best and want only the best for it. Fellow blues have knowingly settled for something that falls considerably short of being the best

Now that Neil, is frustrating.

Jay Campbell
47   Posted 23/05/2008 at 05:48:58

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Still never met anyone that voted Yes.

Just out of interest did any of the indpendent supporters/action groups connected with EFC have access to the results of this vote??
Ajamu Mutumwa
48   Posted 23/05/2008 at 07:04:33

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Ed Fitzgerald

I realise it was late, but your response typifies the No to Kirkby campaign.

You asked me to name a few falshooods. I gave you three for starters, then you start to talk about trusting the board. when did I start to talk about trusting the board?

When you wake up answer the friggn question - are these not falshoods?


Jay Campbell.


You need to get out more.
Ed Fitzgerald
49   Posted 23/05/2008 at 07:32:27

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Ajamu

I am bored with this debate. Let's just state this: if you voted Yes (did you vote and do you go the match?) you must be happy with the both the plans and progress of Destination Kirkby. If you voted No then you will continue to protest until it becomes a reality and then you will decide whether you go or you don?t. It is ironic that there is so much debate on here and elsewhere that inflames the passions of Evertonians and yet no adequate forum is provided to air peoples concerns, alternatives etc with club.

Colin please don?t patronise me with your glib comment about being a typical No voter, are you a typical Yes voter makng noises about it still the deal of the century? See, it's easy to try and pigeonhole responses and people.
Paul Gladwell
50   Posted 23/05/2008 at 07:51:54

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I know of only one fella who voted yes but he does not know that we know he voted yes and that is wrong that he should have to keep quiet ,however in debate with him he speaks like a no voter why?
but anyhow there are 30 of us in our boozer in sunny Prenton all no voters (a few never qualified to be good enough blues despite going to EVERY euro game last year amongst other games) whilst the lads in sunny Claughton we go the game with are also no voters, that makes about 50 so that must be all of Gerards few he likes to comment on and they are all in our gang ;)
Christine Foster
51   Posted 23/05/2008 at 08:00:10

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Maddern. Desist with the patronising, it's contemptable but what we have come to expect from someone who thinks people like me are a minority and belong in the dirge that is ToffeeWeb (your words not mine in response to an attack on TW in another forum / post) in line with your stance of condeming and not constructing.

Just answer the question.

What will it take for EVEN YOU to think Kirkby is a non-starter?

Put your money where your mouth is.
Darren Manning
52   Posted 23/05/2008 at 08:17:43

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Just regarding the ??The Club have a mandate to move/No they don?t?? Argument? Am I the only one who thought there voting form asked "Would you be in favour of the board further investigating the possibility of relocating the club to Kirkby?"(Don?t remember the exact words but I don?t think I?m too wide of the mark)

So regardless of what side of the Yes/No fence you sit on, shouldn?t we be asking why everytime anyone openly opposes the move the club issue a statement saying that they have a ?mandate? from the supporters to move to Kirkby? Because I thought we voted on whether or not we even wanted them to think about it?? Then when they?ve got all the figures/facts straight (£78million, park and walk etc.) a decision will be made, be it by another vote or by the board alone.

Correct me if I?m wrong?

Gerard Madden
53   Posted 23/05/2008 at 09:41:22

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Darren Manning - you must be suffering from some form of amnesia - the question on the ballot was - "Are you in favour of Everton Football Club relocating to Kirkby? Yes/No", of course out of those who bothered to vote it was 60-40 in favour of the relocation. ;)
Darren Manning
54   Posted 23/05/2008 at 09:48:01

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Cheers for clearing that up Gerard, I did vote hence I don’t have the ballot form to hand.

I knew the result though?? so don’t know why you included that or the winky face?
John Lloyd
55   Posted 23/05/2008 at 10:30:04

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I?m with Jay Campbell on this one, I know a lot of blues & most are matchgoers/season ticket holders who are all from Liverpool and I am still to meet anyone who voted yes face to face. I?m not saying that in itself means anything I am just posing a question......Is it mostly Liverpool-based blues who are opposed to this move? And I?m not in any way belittling people who travel from outside the city to the match as we would be lost without you people but in the pubs I drink, in an around town, people in work, everywhere. All the blues I know are opposed to this move.

One more point: a lot of my friends (like myself) still play football on a Saturday & Sunday so for that reason do not have season tickets, yet we go to most home games & a fair few away but as you can guess we didn't get a vote. There must be hundreds & possibly thousand who are in a similar situation so for that point alone the vote was flawed or was a bad idea IMO.

What a sad day it?ll be if we leave our home for a knock down, cheap stadium miles away from the city which we were created in...... People's Club??? Pull the banners down now.....
Tony Williams
56   Posted 23/05/2008 at 10:41:00

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Jay I have never met a No voter.

It’s an easy thing to say on a forum and perhaps your attitude to Ajamu is the reason why in the presence of No voters the lad Paul knows acts like a No voter aswell. Interesting thought isn’t it?
Gerard Madden
57   Posted 23/05/2008 at 11:08:35

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It would be very easy for me to lie and say everyone I know is a ?Yes? voter, so I?m going to be honest and realistic yet again.

I?ve lived 33 years of my life in Anfield and moved in the last year to another part of the city, I know hundreds of blues, as a rough estimate I?d say around 20% of them were against the move primarily because they love GP so much (we all do) that to countenance a move anywhere would be unthinkable ? many of these have accepted the result of the democratic ERS ballot and have ?moved on? leaving just a ?few?, I?d then say there?s about 40% who don't care where we move to within reason ? Kirkby is ?within reason? for most of these people given that it is such a strong scouse heartland just 4 miles away, I?d say another 40% welcome the move with ?open arms? albeit with a tear in the eye for the ol? lady.

My view is strengthened by the fact there has been no protests (apart from...you know ;) ) or chanting etc over the entire season just gone and then of course there?s the ballot result itself. Pretty conclusive evidence in my book that i?m with the overwhelming majority when you look at things away from small messageboards and forums.

John Lloyd
58   Posted 23/05/2008 at 11:44:35

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I?m from Anfield Ged, an I know No-one who either voted Yes or agreed with the move, not one person. I am in now way doubting your comment, just wanted to say it was strange as we both live in/are from the same place, nothing more.

Another comment is that protests have never been an Everton ?thing? even in the dark days of Johnson and that I don't remember there being many chants, banners etc, never seemed to be our thing, maybe to our detriment but even though its all we talk about in the boozers and what have ya, we dont convert that into any form of protest.....well, not in my years anyway or am I wrong an did I just not get onto these things???
Paul Lally
59   Posted 23/05/2008 at 11:54:51

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Can we please stop this mandate shite.
My household was entitled to 2 votes and did NOT recieve ballot papers.
Complained to EFC to no avail.
I am not the only one who did not receive ballot papers.
LFC fans recieved ballot papers because of EFC not up-dating fans addresses.
How many others did not get the ballot papers ?
Maybe we should have a poll on that ?

Something has to be done because we have just had a brilliant season but a black shadow is hanging over all of us.

A nagging feeling deep inside that something is wrong. Not the same feeling as when we play badly and lose, not even the same feeling as being knocked out of a cup on penalties. This is deeper, more painful, more lasting.
This one has been growing over 12 months and is getting worse.
And is not going away.
A presence inside that cannot be ignored.
All of us, all over the world.
We need to unite the fans once and for all and put an end to it.
I do not want to move and at the moment will keep on fighting but if we can find a way were all the fans could have a vote then I would abide by it and hopefully stop this horrible gnawing in my stomach.

I suggest a turnstile vote.
EFC open Goodison one day in the summer between 7pm and 10 pm.
They could ask to turn up if either -
a) You want to move to Kirkby
OR
b) You want to stay at Goodison

LFC fans would try to infiltrate a pro move but we would police it ourselves i.e. family members who are red etc.
Plus both sets of fans have always respected each other on major decisions / events.

And I certainly do not believe we would bully our own fans outside the ground.
News coverage etc and an end to it.

No excuse for anyone if they do not turn up.
For or against, yes or no voter - we are all EFC fans and need to be united on the biggest decision any living Evertonian will ever have to make on behalf of the club we ALL love.


One Evertonian, One vote.
We should be ’over the moon’ about a new stadium but even pro movers are anxious.
Like buying a house - we all should be excited.
That alone should have everyone’s sixth sense kicking in that this move maybe not the right one.
116 years in our present home so another 6 months will not hurt.
No chance I know of EFC agreeing to a ’turnstile’ vote but someone out-there must have a better idea that can work even if it does not involve the club but local media.

Yes voter, no voter, non voter, pro mover, non mover, undecided, confused ? all of us are worried sick.
We need one big vote/event to put this to bed one way or another.

United we stand, divided we are falling.
Ej Ruane
60   Posted 23/05/2008 at 12:03:42

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I have a question

Do you think the ONLY way to call somebody an idiot is by using the literal phrase ’You are an idiot’?

Seems that way to me.

If I come on here and call someone thick or stupid, one of two things can (and probably will) happen.

1) There’ll be a load of posts saying "There’s no need blah blah.."

2) The feller in charge will say "There’s no need blah blah.."

Now I’m genuinely fine with this, but have to point out that EVERY post by Gerard Madden (that real person who is nothing to do with Tesco and/or Everton...HONEST!) is saying "I think you’re thick/idiots etc".

He may not use the actual words, but if you can’t read between the lines, you ARE idiots etc (or maybe you’re the kind of person who thinks "Would you like to come up for a coffee?" really IS an invite to ’come up and have a Coffee’)

Fact is, this feller is a lacky of the club.

This is a guy who portrays himself as not in the LEAST bit worried about the move, )as he’s confident it’s a ’done dea’l etc.

This is someone who has ’moved on’ and suggests we ALL should

Yet, every time there’s a ’no’ post -BANG! -he’s there.

Know what his opinions are on Carsley, Uefa, Moyes?

Of course not!

Coz he ONLY posts on Kirkby-related threads (check out previous non-Kirkby articles for his name....MISSING!).

If he’s allowed to insult this way, I hope we’ll be afforded the courtesy, of affording him absolutely no courtesy, in our own way.

I choose literally.

Gerard - you’re a prick!


Vincent Lysaght
61   Posted 23/05/2008 at 12:51:14

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Fans want it, EFC want it, Tesco want it, Knowsley want it, Kirkby needs it. It’s going to happen. Fingers in ears, lalalalalalalalalala...........
Gareth Humphreys
62   Posted 23/05/2008 at 13:24:52

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E J Raune

Bang on the money.

He also doesn?t like answering direct questions that he can?t answer.

Sounds to me that note only is he a lacky of the club but he is primed for KW?s role.
Tony Williams
63   Posted 23/05/2008 at 13:32:10

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Paul, an interesting suggestion but again you will be faced with problems, as will any kind of walking vote or ballot.

What about the people on holiday?, what about the people who travel from all over the country on match days? It would probably cost a lot to get there and vote so they will stay away no matter which way they are voting, how are we going to prove if they are Blue or not? What about people who work nights.

The only way to do a vote was by post and unfortunately, as already shown, that can get screwed up aswell.
Tony Williams
64   Posted 23/05/2008 at 13:38:37

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Gareth and EJ, kind of seems like the mirror image of our very own Tony Marsh doesn’t it?
Paul Gladwell
65   Posted 23/05/2008 at 13:27:41

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EJ I got onto that months ago, all your words are so correct, I mentioned it once and lo and behold he posted something on team affairs ten minutes later, other than that nothing.
I am all for a good debate and the likes of Neil Pearce whom I disagree with gives and fair and resonable arguement for the yes camp.

All this garbabge of the few is just wind ups, we have a proper following over our side of the water proven by the fact our shop is still doing well over here and let me tell you, when we take two, sometimes three coaches to away games these are hardcore No voters, maybe it is part selfishness as hungover at 2.20pm Boxing Day or night games will mean the late taxi over for kick off may turn into a "sod this I will watch on the Dubai channel" as they would miss the first half.

I dont know, but speaking for fans over here I know, I have yet to have a debate or know a Yes voter (minus the fella I mentioned before) although I am sure there is a few, I am just saying It is not the figures madman puts out even when he he is trying to be mellow with his daft teenager witty text faces.

Richard Osborne
66   Posted 23/05/2008 at 13:55:06

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Everton will build a new ground in Kirkby because it is the cheapest available option, not the best available option. That worries me.
Dave Wilson
67   Posted 23/05/2008 at 13:33:46

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Gerrard, Your first class entertainment
"It would be easy for me to lie"
Well no one would ever have guessd ! ! !
I particularly like the ones were you claim to have mates or the ones were you contradict yourself, making yourself look a complete plonker - still laugh about the time you posted from Dovecot at 2-40 then later claimed you were at the game, HA HA
keep them coming
Paul Thompson
68   Posted 23/05/2008 at 14:48:47

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Re G Madden
I was in Runcorn on Wed night (4 solid blue owned/managed pubs). After the CL final, the expected fisticuffs between kopites and Cheshire Mancs broke out.
One of the owners (who regularly has contact with and guest from EFC’) commented on this numpty called Madden from Dovecot who he’ts been told posts on ToffeeWeb posing as a ’normal supporter’ . He said his person was recently ’outed’ with an invite to tour County Rd and replied with an attack on Scousers who lived in and/or frequented the area. Is the same Madden we’re seeing here?
Peter Howard
69   Posted 23/05/2008 at 15:08:21

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If the club had not held a ballot (which as I’ve previously said, it shouldn’t have ) and had just gone ahead with the proposed move, what would those opposed to it have done?
Adam Cunliffe
70   Posted 23/05/2008 at 15:23:59

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John Llyod, I am in the same boat as you. I got to the majority of games, but as I play rugby league in St Helens on every other weekend I don?t have a season ticket. This proves that the club did not consider ALL match going Evertonians, only season ticket holders.
David Kiely
71   Posted 23/05/2008 at 15:54:06

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Madden is quite a celebrity. I think his case demonstrates the point that however well people try to administrate forums there really is no answer to a "virus" like Gerard. If someone like that wants to make an impact they?ll find a way.
Tim Keen
72   Posted 23/05/2008 at 15:54:51

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Darren Manning - Gerrard is misleading you. The question may have said "Are you in favour of relocating to Kirkby?" However directly before this it says something along the lines of "Voting Yes means the board will continue to explore the possibility of relocation, voting No means they will stop immediately"
It was deliberately phrased so that even if you voted Yes it didn’t mean they would move.
EJ Ruane
73   Posted 23/05/2008 at 16:05:35

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WOW!!!

Tony Ateman - Is that your real name, or is it really...Arthur Fonzerelli?

The reason I ask, is that your highly original "I’m bored and can’t be bothered with anything that doesn’t entertain me" stance, is SO cool (do you wear your collar up at the back?).

Also, I think your use of the phrase ’get over it’ is VERY cool (do you also use "it’s time to move on" when you realise you’re losing an argument? - that’s VERY popular at the moment).

HEEEEEEEEEY!!!!
David Kiely
74   Posted 23/05/2008 at 17:01:06

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E.J. - I always think the use of the word "whatever" is a cool thing. I imagine the Kirkby/Wyness apologists saying it whilst bringing their two hands into a "W" shape. They?re so world-weary.

Phil Bellis
75   Posted 23/05/2008 at 17:33:38

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EJ and David...Even Cooler YesSpeak is ?end of?
Coolest of all though is ?talk to the tool? but that?s not recommended in public places or mixed company.
Anthony Newell
76   Posted 23/05/2008 at 17:26:07

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John Lloyd, I clearly remember Everton Fans camped outside the gates of Park Foods, Johnson?s hamper factory and vehemently protesting. I also remember leaflets being distributed around Goodison and graffiti being regularly cleaned off the walls of the ground around that time.

You're right, Everton fans are usually an easy going bunch but there comes a point where you push them too far. Given the recent information that has come to light regarding relocation and the obvious sub-standard offering of a stadium which is on the cards, Kirkby will hopefully turn into one of those defining moments

Tom Coleman
77   Posted 23/05/2008 at 17:05:48

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I live in North Wales and have been coming to GP for almost 40 years. Mostly travelling by train and taxi, sometimes in the car and occasionally on the bus. I travel with fellow North Walians, meet my mates from Wirral etc in town and head up to county road with my scouse mates.

I say this because it shows a good cross section of the fan base. Almost all have season tickets, a good percentage go to as many away as they can and some never miss a single match. Since the vote I have spoken to many blues more than 100 easily, of these 1 did not vote, 3 voted yes and the rest no.
Of the yes voters, 1 genuinely believe it?s for the best, 1 said he just did, and 1 thinks he will be able to park next to something resembling the Allianz arena. Of the No voters 60% ish will still go 40% say they will not. Not 1 will renew their season ticket.

Madden you appear to have the ear of the club do they realise that mandate or not it will only take 2 or 3 years of mediocrity and the club we all love will cease to exist.
Phil Bellis
78   Posted 23/05/2008 at 17:51:15

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Tom
Don’t expect a reply from ’Madden’ to a simple , direct question
I don’t think he has the ear of the club - but some other part of his anatomy appears to be well used by the Goodison hierarchy
And you mention County Rd, bad misistake...he thinks the area’s a health hazard
Gav Norris
79   Posted 23/05/2008 at 17:53:00

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This is so boring now, let it go. Its over. Stop campaigning, move on, find another cause, save the whales or something. Maybe you can find conspiracies there!

I just want the blues to buy good players and win more games and finish above the reds, then move on to European domination. With Davey at the helm anything is possible.

COYBs
Paul Thompson
80   Posted 23/05/2008 at 18:05:10

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And the Winner of the Cool Dude Yes Voter Contest is......<

Gav Norris!!!

(Very subtle, Gav, very witty.)
Adam Cunliffe
81   Posted 23/05/2008 at 18:03:23

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Gav, why should we move on? We believe strongly in the principles of not moving to Kirkby and no shabily run ballot that didn?t even question all the Evertonians (just a select few season ticket holders) will stop us wanting what we think is right for the club. I'm sure if the majority voted No you?d be complaining the same as us.
Paul Gladwell
82   Posted 23/05/2008 at 18:23:46

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I thought all that shitty cool dude text talk that my teenage neice uses whan she texts me was banned from this site anyway ;) :( nerds.
Gav Norris
83   Posted 23/05/2008 at 18:21:22

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I didn't vote Yes actually; I was a No, but then after hearing the nonsense that KEIOC et al write, I decided I couldn't bear all of the petty half truths, slander etc that comes from that side. I'm a yes now and I know plenty who have swapped the same way. You lot think all Blues fans read these websites, in reality it is very few ? I'd guess 15%. The rest don't get a chance to represent their views on such an insular stage.

You lot whip yourselves up into a frenzy and talk like revolutionaries when in reality its only about 100/200 people reading your nonsense.

If we are all honest, of the No voters, there are some genuine people who believe in the cause, but how many are looking after their own end? People who own pubs/shops/car parks etc around Goodison? I wonder how much noise those people are making compared to the others.

But at the end of the day I don't have to explain myself to anyone. If you think I am a cool dude, then I thank you, and I am glad you are still down with the kids and have such an up-to-date vocabulary.
Paul Gladwell
84   Posted 23/05/2008 at 18:51:18

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829 have so far voted on the latest vote 27% still want the move so I think it is a bit more Gav and you are right though ,not all blues read this site out of my lot (30) it is just me who is the internet nerd but I have said before they are all No voters and out of them at least 7 have said they will not renew if we go to Kirkby, not all by the way hold season tickets. So that is just one group, imagine the numbers across the board who will feel the same, just where the hell are the club going to replace these people?

It's all well and good saying they will come if we are successful but what are the odds on that? And with such a big majority who did vote No ,don't you think the club should do a little research on how many they will lose if they move as this is one hell of a gamble?

How about asking season ticket holders will they renew if we move to Kirkby or will they just take the risk and hope the new shiney flatpack will draw them in?

Tom Hughes
85   Posted 23/05/2008 at 19:02:22

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Gav,
You are the ONLY No-voter who I have heard say he has swapped over to YES. What part of KEIOC?s campaign irked you to the extent to pursuade you to support something that has since been shown to not exist? Toffeeweb and other forums have done polls asking precisely the question of if people had changed their minds regarding their vote. The results are overwhelmingly the opposite of what you claim. I think Toffeewebs had zero turning the way you say you did, yet you say you know loads. I suggest you address the issues rather than your disregard for fellow Evertonians who?s reservations have all been vindicated in recent months.
Colin Wordsworth
86   Posted 23/05/2008 at 19:25:48

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Paul and any others that will stop watching the blues if we do move to Kirkby.... what fantastic supporters you are!

To be honest you might as well support the rs.....pathetic...... throw your toys out of the collective pram!

I cannot believe how fickle you can be!
David OKeefe
87   Posted 23/05/2008 at 19:39:32

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Colin

Do you have anything worthwhile to contribute? If not don’t bother, as all we have had is wind-ups and ad hominem’s.
Colin Wordsworth
88   Posted 23/05/2008 at 19:50:37

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David

This site as I have mentioned before is like groundhog day with anybody who is remotely a yes voter being castigated for their views.

The point I have made above is a valid one!....what kind of fan can decide not to follow the team just beacause the team is playing at a football ground in Kirkby!

We all want what is best for the club, personally I would love us to stay nearer to Goodison but unfortunately reality has to set in.

Whatever way the no voters look at the proposed new ground there is no getting away from the fact that it is all down to location.

And looking at it from another angle just how good is Goodison at the moment...and take your rose coloured glasses off!

We need change to move forward, we have little money....how else are we to do it?

I cannot believe BK is moving us away without a great deal of thought and a knowledge that this is the only way forward.

As I have mentioned before and been shot down in flames!..... I am aware that many sites were seen in the city but none were suitable for a ground plus partner!... and we need the partner!.... unfortunately but this is a fact

Yes, I am aware of the loop, more round the bend to me and a bit of a red herring and the possibility of redeveloping the grand old stadium... but will that be regretted in the future if the rs build their all singing all dancing monolith on the park that towers over us and casts a dark shadow over Ye Olde Goodison Park.

So, in conclusion, I want what is best for our beloved club. I personally feel we are at a crossroads and need a push in the right direction, I feel we need to move to modernise and rebrand with the potential of the club improving both on and off the pitch.

So, yes, some of my comments are flippant but they usually have a point and I personally would watch the team wherever.... and not show a fit of pique because I do not agree to a decision that has been decided by a fair voting process, and again I know nothing is perfect re the voting but we all knew the rules beforehand.

Other clubs were not even given a vote, a vote which at the time was seen as a positive by all the better journalists congratulating the club on its thinking.

So explaination over, I just wish some people would think before they type.
Gav Norris
89   Posted 23/05/2008 at 20:11:15

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Hahaha... quality, Phil. I giggled out loud. Great comment.

Is kd lang still a bird???

Anyway I am glad Paul knows 30 fellas who support the blues, I suppose we should forget the mass vote and just ask him and his mates, as they seem to know all the answers.

Maybe the people who feel the same as me do not bother to respond to these posts/bother reading in the first place/refuse to fill in the questionnaire etc and you only have the MAJORITY of your own fellow supporters responding/reading/filling in answers. Just a thought

And I am sorry, its annoying you, David O?Keefe, but Colin is right, if people care so little about the blues that they will refuse to go to the games, then they are showing their true colours and I would rather have less fans who love the blues through good times and bad.

Rant over, hope I didn't annoy too many people for having an original opinon on a very biased site.
Steve Dooley
90   Posted 23/05/2008 at 20:01:47

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One way or another, Everton needs a new stadium. My heart will always be at Goodison, but unless we have the stomach to have redevelopment work going on for perhaps 5 or 6 seasons it is probably not an option to redevelop the old lady. That is unless we could play somewhere else while the redevelopment was done to limit the time taken and minimise the loss in revenue. Anfield anyone?

The option on Scotland Road is terrible, it is simply too constrained, access is dreadful and as a construction professional myself, it really would be costly. Anything is possible, but at a cost!

I can?t comment on Walton Hall Park, I dont know the site. But I doubt that the economics would work out because Tesco won?t be bankrolling us?

Kirkby is a clear site where the stadium can be constructed quickly and efficiently (and hence cheaply). From the club?s point of view, the debt incurred to build it is a lot less than any of the other options.

From an emotional point of view, I Iove Goodison Park, but from a commercial point of view Kirkby may be a better option. After all, the whole point of a new stadium will be to encourage more of the prawn sandwich brigade !!

I didn?t actually get a vote, but I would have liked an option of keeping the club within the city limits (but not Scotland Road!!). But sadly it was not to be.

On a final point, £78million is absolute peanuts for a stadium. A huge sum for an individual, but peanuts in football finance terms. I suspect that one of the big Chapions League clubs will spend more than on a single player within the next few years.
David O'Keefe
91   Posted 23/05/2008 at 20:41:28

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Colin, Gavin

Some fans will not be able to go to Kirkby because of its location. How will 55000 plus fans get to and from Kirkby? This is what neither of you have considered, but then neither of you have bothered to read the transport report.

Accusing the Noes of have a rose-tinted view is one thing, but stop playing the victim card; no-one is censoring you or persecuting.... you are not on trial here.

"So yes some of my comments are flippant but they usually have a point and I personally would watch the team wherever....and not show a fit of pique because I do not agree to a decision that has been decided by a fair voting process, and again I know nothing is perfect re the voting but we all knew the rules beforehand."

So a hard sell from KW that did not contain a grain of truth is acceptable?

Can?t win an argument, play the victim and strive for the moral high ground of being a better blue? If this is all the Yes voters can put forward, why continue the debate?
Tom Hughes
92   Posted 23/05/2008 at 20:53:25

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Steve Dooley,
There are far more constrained sites with stadia than the Loop. Emirates is built within the apex of two train cuttings with access on one whole side only. Millenium has a river which it overhangs. £78m is only the cost should Tesco arrange ALL the enabling..... this is looking less likely all the time. Even at that price, in terms of construction costs it equates to EFC paying for at least 3 of the 4 stands at Kirkby (what?s so remarkable about that?). One mega stand at the Park End, or simply an extension of the existing one, and the upper bullens would cost nothing like this amount.... and would yield similar/greater capacity at the home of the world?s first purpose-built football stadium.....

Kudos/History/heritage/identity/continuity you can?t buy but we have by the bucket at GP!!!

Colin Wordsworth
93   Posted 23/05/2008 at 21:00:38

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David

My turn to be flip again....I forgot to mention the other red herring put out re the transport!

At least you are admitting the possibility of extra fans......a no voter positive....can?t be!

Come on, totally pathetic........IT?S JUST THE LOCATION......YOU DON?T LIKE KIRKBY!!!.....FULLSTOP!!!

Of course the club are going to put a positive slant on the move.... how naive are you?

But at the same time.... even at £78 mll it is a steal! Find a more reasoned argument or just admit the fact it?s all down to location! ......and again take those rose tinted glases off!.....driven to Goodison lately?...or walked from the train station........ I do....... not great either!....is it!

There is plenty of time to get that issue addressed!......as I stated before please think before you type........ GROUNDHOG DAY!!!!........ YIPEE!

Tom Coleman
94   Posted 23/05/2008 at 20:32:35

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Colin

You say ?what kind of fan can decide not to follow the team just because the team is playing at a football ground in Kirkby!? Well that?s me. A season ticket holder since the early 80?s who was one of the 2-300 we often took away in those days. I may be tempted to the odd game but night games I will not be able to get to Kirkby in time.

This move is wrong for so many reasons but as you say its getting like groundhog day so sticking to the original theme you also state ?I cannot believe BK is moving us away without a great deal of thought and a knowledge that this is the only way forward.? The vote result showed 60% of people who bothered to vote were happy to move (I find this baffling as of the 100 plus people I know had a vote only 3 vote yes). Do you not think BK knows that this is a total gamble? 36k average now, Kirkby 36k possibly minus the 40% No voters. There is no need for another vote because the board cannot be that blind as to not know this is the case.
Ron Leith
95   Posted 23/05/2008 at 21:39:40

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I want another vote! I want another vote! I want another vote... cos last time we missed the boat the buggers voted yes instead of no. Bleeding hell democracy sucks and I want my dummy back WAH WAH WAH WAH.

They told us lies oh they did. Grow up.

Sad but true you lost the vote you No hopers. If you want another vote pay for it and organise it.
Carl Cole
96   Posted 23/05/2008 at 21:42:00

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The results are all ready in, the vote was yes!

We could just keep having votes untill the No vote wins.....that would be fair!

There would have been hell to pay if the No vote had won and there had been another vote!!

Steve Dooley
97   Posted 23/05/2008 at 21:40:49

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Tom Hughes, I take your point about the other stadia with constraints, but they all cost far far more than we are willing to pay. Constraints in construction projects costs fortunes. I am an infrastructure project manager and believe me, it could quite easily double your costs. As I said, anything is possible if you have the money!.

With regard to extending the Park End, yes it could be done, but the Bullens Road stand and the Gwladys Street end are quite frankly past it and would still need replacing.

There is also the question of generating more income from the stadium. Corporate customers, conference facilities, additional bars, food outlets are all required, none of which can satisfactorily be fitted into the existing footprint.
Colin Wordsworth
98   Posted 23/05/2008 at 21:40:27

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Tom

I love the old lady as much as the next fan, I also have been following the blues since 1970 when I also had a season ticket......and do now!

But I really do feel we have reached an impasse. The team is doing well but it is punching above its weight.......which I am extremely happy about, but how long will this last ....and where will the finance come from in the future, we need new potential income streams!

As I tried to explain above, before, again somebody tried to shoot me down I feel there is no alternative than to move, to progress, to rebrand, to give us an opportunity.

I have had many great nights at GP, but I struggle to remember a recent meaningful win against a ?big? team, despite the ?intimidating? atmosphere.

Re the pessimestic 36,000 figure for the new stadium, GP is basically as good as full most games now and the restriced views must put potential attendees off going to the game. A new stadium will encourage fans to attend.

Again......it?s me spouting groundhog day.....but it really is just location.........and no it?s not ideal for me either as I?ve already mentioned I would prefer closer to GP BUT we must be realistic.

The new stadium looks good, has a great capacity with further potential, has corporate facilities.... not a tent!.... and gives us a chance to compete in future against the big boys financially!

And putting the old I only know people who voted no to bed I only know 2 no voters out of..... some would say 2 and call me Billy!..... but they really are in the minority.... and yes we argue/ discuss the issue a lot!

At the end of the day we all want what we think is right for our great club.
Jay Harris
99   Posted 23/05/2008 at 22:34:18

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Steve Dooley,
As a construction professional can you give us a clue as to the cost of decontaminating land we will not even own at Kirkby? Everton?s own expert put it at millions but can you be more specific. I read that it equated to the cost of putting a plinth in at the loop but I would like a professional?s view on it.
Jay Harris
100   Posted 23/05/2008 at 22:40:40

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Colin
Could you explain how the EXTRA income is going to come from Kirkby given that we will probably start with an interest millstone of about £10 million a year?
Jay Harris
101   Posted 23/05/2008 at 23:01:04

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Carl Cole,
Can you honestly say what you voted Yes for will be delivered?
Tom Coleman
102   Posted 23/05/2008 at 22:36:51

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Colin

As you say it is all about location. My opinion of the Kirkby design is that it is not fit for the club. If it were of a better design I would be less worried about the move. If the same design was proposed for say WHP or the loop I would still think the design not fit but would still go along with the plans.

Now the worry is that is this the location for chasing corporate money. We are moving to Kirkby to enable us to compete at a higher level say champions league every year. Surely the only way this move could work would be the opposite, success on the field followed by a move. Surely that would be less of a gamble in spending large sums of the clubs money.

Finally and this is not meant as any offence to Kirkby but transpose Liverpool onto Manchester. As a business operating out of the city with its trade links and commercial centre, do you entertain people at Old Trafford or Eastlands or do you take clients on Matchdays or non match days to the Reebok or Boundary Park.

This is the situation I fear we will be in.
Colin Wordsworth
103   Posted 23/05/2008 at 23:07:38

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Jay

Re the extra income..... it doesn?t take a brain surgeon to work that one out!

As with all the dissenting voices.....what is the alternative?... The Loop is bogus! Redevelopment is pie in the sky pending planning permission and compulsary purchase etc etc......and of course MORE money! .....and how will we pay that interest back?....dur!......it?s just like Groundhog Day meets the Simpsons!!.... and of course the new ground will be leased.....shock......oh yes 999 years I believe!!!.....that?s as good as freehold!......remind me how old GP is?

Re what was promised is a stadium in Kirkby.... with a running mate called Tesco who happen to be quite a good company, who must deliver......if not for Everton but at least their shareholders!......it is a prestigious development, Tesco need it not to fail. That is why I feel it will be built, starting soon!

Yes, it is a gamble, but one I feel we need to take!

wordsworth....out!
Colin Wordsworth
104   Posted 23/05/2008 at 23:32:23

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Tom

I was going to stop for the night but I feel you have raised a good point!

I only hope that this doesn?t happen!.........but saying that we have a world class partner, Liverpool is a small city in comparison to Manchester and quite compact. In future years it will spread and move towards Kirkby.

My problem with the success on the field stuff is that we are doing over well and unless we are very lucky injury wise and transfer wise I fear we will struggle to progress further in our present state.

The design of the stadium I feel is very good...... not brilliant but very good....... we cannot afford brilliant anywhere!

So, we need a partner...... we cannot afford a unilateral move, the city aren?t helping, we?re skint and we are offered a brand new stadium at a great price........ but not where we would want it!.

We have to bite the bullet, I know it?s not what I would prefer but we need it to progress!

But is MUFC in the City?.......historically.......no! Slightly different circumstances I know.... but a good point nontheless........... Is it not progreesive doing what we are doing?

Wordsworth........ out..... out!
Tom Hughes
105   Posted 23/05/2008 at 23:57:57

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Colin,
Out of town stadia..... is not progressive. It’s old hat. They’re systematically knocking them down in the US to replace them with downtown stadia to take full advantage of public transport hubs. The success of a few downtown stadia in the 90’s has helped spark a stadium building boom over there....... NO ONE in stadium design circles would advocate out of town stadia ahead of downtown, especially for the club sports as opposed to athletics stadia. The only place where some still work is the likes of Germany where there is massive public transport infrastructure. There is certainly nothing comparable in the UK (except London perhaps). Simon Inglis is a world renowned Stadium expert..... he said in an instant that we should be very worried at the prospect of moving out of town.
Christine Foster
106   Posted 23/05/2008 at 23:36:00

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Biased TW threads? Maybe its because the number of comments and replies are a fair representation of the actual situation. A statistical sample.

Just the location? Kirkby is a bad choice made worse by the hype afforded it by the club its false statements and positive spin. From virtually nothing to a MINIMUM of £78M plus any contribution due to the smaller retail footprint.

Suddenly the deal of the century is still a great deal because it's ONLY going to cost us the upside of £100M?

I have said before. Everton FC need to locate to an area that is area well served by transport links within the city. You cannot construct a whole transposrt infrastructure around 3 hours a fortnight. It's not viable.

What is this "blind faith" in a board that has not delivered, twisted facts and made statements that where not true? What will it take for even the most ardent yes voter to say, Ok enough is enough, thats gone too far, Kirkby is not the place?

If WHP, the Loop or anywhere that is well served withing the city was available most of us would say ok.. better choice, could work.

Its not JUST about Kirkby. Its about common sense, good management, truth.
Its about an exclusivity deal that was supposed to be only in place for 3/4 months, back in 2006 being used to stifle any alternative.

BK said it when forced, If Kirkby fails then I suppose plan B is Goodison Park.

Bill, Kirkby is a bad call You know when to pull a show when the reviews are bad? Well this show is a stinker and the reviews from the stalls say pull it.
Colin Wordsworth
107   Posted 24/05/2008 at 00:05:46

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Tom

So what do we do as a football club?, stick our heads in the sand and hope all will be well.....or try to progress!.......be it with as little cash as possible!

It is not that far from the city.......would you feel the same if it was bootle or near the airport...... As I have stated, we have a world class partner, we need a partner and I assume far more intelligent people than me have worked all the figures out......if not then we are in trouble!!

At the end of the day Blackburn generate as much corporate as us now, so it won?t be hard beating that at the new stadium! There are businesses I?m sure that will want to invest in us!

As for the transport in the USA...... our public transport is a disgrace anyway!

Sorry for being flip....again!......but I do think there is plenty of time to address this! The problem is no one can forsee the future and ...we are all guessing.......who knows......it might just be the right thing to do!
Colin Wordsworth
108   Posted 24/05/2008 at 00:21:59

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Christine

couldn?t resist!

This is ..getting silly: THE CLUB CANNOT AFFORD ANYWHERE NEAR £100 MILL.

Why do you think Kirkby is THE option!....... the Simpsons are back....dur!

You don?t like Kirkby....just be honest!......transport.....MY ARSE!
Jim Lloyd
109   Posted 23/05/2008 at 23:54:18

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Christ! Paul Lally please read this.
I can’t see one yes voter on here who has said "ok, I voted yes but if there was a valid alternative to Kirkby, I’d take it." I’ve not seen one who has been willing to se if any other alternative to moving from OUR city could work.
Well, let them witter on about the benefits of moving to Kirkby.
To me, thats what its all about. Not whether the design is, or isnt the greatest.
Not whether we can shove more executive boxes in it.
Not whether the bloody traffic can disperse in ten minutews or so. (it can’t by the way).
It’s all about the leaving of Liverpool. If we do this, in my humble opinion we’re history.
Our club has got the vote that it wanted. In my view it loaded the question. We were told there was no alternative. Imho this was a lie.

What now for the people who believe this will see Everton leave its suppotrters in the City of Liverpool.

Paul, if you think we could get our message out to the fans, would you be willing to meet, say in Stanley Park. Whatever we decide to do, it has to be quick. We have a nmatter of weeks to show the strength of our feelings.My number is 933 2187. If we can effectively oppose this mad move, then let’s do it.
If we don’t, I think our club will just become another also ran.
Christine Foster
110   Posted 24/05/2008 at 01:21:28

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I just deleted the post I wanted to put up because its a waste of time trying to get a point across when no one gives structured answers to endorse the Yes case.

I repeat, what will it take for the Yes section to say that Kirkby is not a good deal?

Straight answers only please. Real facts if you have any.
Neil Pearse
111   Posted 24/05/2008 at 02:10:25

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What it will take, Christine, is for you or any other No voter to produce a better deal than Kirkby that we can actually afford. Simple as that. Not happened yet. (Yes, GP can be redeveloped, but it will not generate sufficent new revenue.)

And it will help if you stopped contradicting yourself by saying over and over again that (a) Kirkby is too expensive for us, so (b) we should build something more expensive in the city.
Tom Hughes
112   Posted 24/05/2008 at 02:29:33

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Neil,
I have produced drawings of several schemes that are definitely affordable now that we know the rough figures for Kirkby..... the club does not want to see them, they wont even release drawings to allow for more detailed plans to be drawn up (thankfully there are several ways to get around this). The Bestway people produced outline figures at the time of the vote (nearly a year before Tesco did, and they are nowhere near KW’s vote winning statements), and they envisaged that the club’s contribution would be of the order of £60m+ given the types of developments they felt were viable at this city-centre site, especially given the multi-billion pound schemes currently underway or in the pipeline in that vicinity.... similarly sainsbury’s with WHP.

However, the point is.... ordinary fans shouldn’t have to do this. If Kirkby is so great it should stand up to full scrutiny. The club should have commissioned a design competition with rough estimates of finances available (say £78m for starters). Then if they are right in their assertions about Kirkby, and that proposal shone through, we could all say fair play. Instead we got fabrication after fabrication with all alternatives shunned instantly. I’ve worked on some major construction projects, and I’ve never seen a process like it..... its more akin to an old pal’s act than anything resembling normal industry practice.
Bob Turner
113   Posted 24/05/2008 at 06:34:16

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Dave Wilson,

I don?t know if you?re still reading this thread, but I recall very well the thread you refer to above, when Gerard Madden posted before a game then still claimed he got to the match.

Thing is, and I remember it well because I said then what I?m going to say now, it was around 1:40 he posted, and as I commented then, it was eminently feasible that he posted and attended the game.

But, hey, if you want a Stalinist revision of history to back up your point (not sure what all the Madden bashing does to your cause, to be honest, but no doubt you had a bit of a chuckle to yourself when you clicked "Submit Your Comment", didn?t you? Come on, admit it, it made you feel good, didn?t it??), then who am I to argue.

Christine, yes, you are right that it?s a waste of time trying to put across an argument when the other side doesn?t want to listen, So right! ? Pot, kettle, black ? it would appear, though, since you?ve clearly done the same thing.
Jay Campbell
114   Posted 24/05/2008 at 08:24:30

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Tony William’s you’ve never met a no voter!!!

You must sit in the directors box next to Wyness and Madden aka Bill Kenwright then.
Gav Norris
115   Posted 24/05/2008 at 08:44:24

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Some great quotes,

A board who has not delivered!!!! Hahah! I think getting Moyes the players he wants like the Yak, AJ, Baines etc delivering in the most important way, on the field.

Tom Hughes, I have lived in the US for a bit (playing footy actually) to compare UK football stadiums to US baseball/yank footy/basketball/ice hockey stadiums is like comparing 40 thousand hardcore blues fans to a bunch of people who attend a pop concert a couple of times a year. They do not have the same type of support who will follow them, they have much larger bases of fans to draw from, they are usually all single city teams and finally if they were to locate out of the cities, they would have zero public transport to get people to them. So to use that logic when sorting a stadium for the blues makes me cringe, it also makes me very glad that you are not in charge of our future.

This £78 mill that everyone talks about, does not include the money we will get from selling GP, or the stadium naming rights that we will sell. So lets say at a guess we get £25 mill for both (rough estimate) that means we are really paying £53 mill for a stadium that will serve us for the next 100 years, making it about £500k a year. Not bad when we make that much money from one home game.

Or we could buy some land in the city (£50 mill), build a stadium that holds 55 thousand (£200 mill) and then hope that we dont need to buy a player for the next 10 years.

Good idea...
Steve Mitchell
116   Posted 24/05/2008 at 09:11:33

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Tom Hughes: Are you aware that the New York Yankees are moving from their home in the Bronx to a new stadium in 2009? Where do you get your info that USA teams are moving into the inner cities? The reverse is actually the case!
Joe Ludden
117   Posted 24/05/2008 at 10:25:27

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Have just watched the Desperation Kirkby DVD which is on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K70R9OaBrqQ&eurl=http://www.keioc.net/

The main gist of it is, quite a few people in Kirkby either want more shops or are sick of going to the same shops all the time. If that?s not a good enough reason to up sticks and toss away 116 years of our history I don?t know what is. I?ve changed my mind, I?m all for it now. These people are desperate for shops, so obviously Everton moving grounds is the only way anyone can achieve this. How sad and desperate does a town need to be to actively want a Tesco Superstore, baring in mind most places that have one would prefer not to.

Ian Ross is having a dig at people having a dig at the DVD saying: ?These people who are accusing us here are the very same people who accuse us of not outlining our plans clearly enough. Yet, when we go to the expense of producing a high-quality DVD at £22,000 they complain again.? Couple of points, the DVD is far from high quality and they haven?t answered any of the concerns of Kirkby residents or Everton fans.
Dave Wilson
118   Posted 24/05/2008 at 09:34:57

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Bob Turner
I?ll try to explain

In the film Usual Suspects, Kevin Spacey says at the end, "The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was proving to the world he doesn't exist" ? if you didn't see it, get the DVD, it's brilliant. If Madden proved to the world he does exist, it would be an equally great trick, the fact is he doesn't.

This Walter Mitty type character is the creation of one of this site's better wind-up merchants, he post?s to this site and others, using different names. He is constantly making claims that would require him to be in two places at once, you don't need to look any further than this article to see him being yellow carded for telling porkies.

I like the character Bob, he brings a barbed humour to the debate, I don't get offended when he calls me bedraggled or delusional. I?m a scouser, I pride myself on my humour - giving it as well as taking it.

If a guy called G Madden ever introduced to me his 6 yes voting mates from the Cabbage and the two no voters he converted on a trip to Kirkby, I?ll overlook his claims to have been in both these places at the same time and buy you and him, a ticket to a game of your choice

You seem like a decent blue Bob so I wont insult you with the accusations that you're gullible, but you seem to trust the word of KW ? far more than I ever could

All that glitters ? and posts on TW ? isn't gold.

Stephen Burton
119   Posted 24/05/2008 at 10:30:15

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We could have another 10 votes and regardless of the result, some disgruntled group would refuse to accept it. Damned if we do and damned if we don’t.
Paul Henshaw
120   Posted 24/05/2008 at 10:27:56

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Have I missed something,whats all this about a move to Kirkby??????
Neil Pearse
121   Posted 24/05/2008 at 10:45:22

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There are two completely contradictory No arguments running here, and I really would like to know which one you No guys are bascially arguing for. You cannot have it both ways.

Argument one: we are so poor that we cannot even afford to build a relatively modest stadium in a relatively cheap and unconstrained out of town location. £50M odd is beyond us, and far too risky for us to borrow to build a brand new 50,000 capacity stadium. So presumably we must stay and tinker with GP as best we can.

Argument two: the Board is a complete disgrace for foisting on us a cheap stadium in a relatively cheap location. We are rich enough to do far better, and should be building a world class stadium in an expensive city centre location.

Which is it? Are we poor or are we rich? Can we afford a new stadium or can’t we? Which is it?
Chris Roberts
122   Posted 24/05/2008 at 11:27:08

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Sound of willow on wicket, lidos are opening, promenades flock with holiday makers and once again on ToffeeWeb argument rages over Kirkby.

One thing Tom Hughes you are very forgetful on the not knowing anyone who has been turned off the no campaign by KEOIC as I (and many others) have repeatedly asserted exactly that through this website. The fact that you suppress this information goes some way to explaining why KEOIC has this effect. They and you are incredibly good at blanking certain facts.

Now, about the cricket....
Carl Fairclough
123   Posted 24/05/2008 at 12:29:17

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Can we stop going on about Kirkby. How many more articles can be written? Jeez Lueez! It's getting boring reading about the same thing over and over and over again! That's why many people will have read the first few lines on this article and then stopped, coz it's a waste of time!!!! Argueing about this isn?t going to help us change the fact that Everton are probably going to move to Kirkby sometime in the future. GET OVER IT!!!
Paul Gladwell
124   Posted 24/05/2008 at 12:25:52

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Colin, first things first before you come on here slaggging me an others off: I never said I wont go, in fact my stance is I will give it a go but I fear I won't like it and it just won't be Everton to me anymore, ok.

Secondly, the people who have said to me they are not going to Kirkby are hardcore blues with 20-30 years of season tickets each so what gives you the right to suggest they are not proper Blues?

Lastly, Gavin, yes I do drink with a good few matchgoing blues and what I was saying is this is just one of many groups around Merseyside with similar views, so answer my question without getting all smart arsed because you have found a bit of back up, how will the club replace these fans because there are a good few out there.

Ajamu Mutumwa
125   Posted 24/05/2008 at 13:43:05

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I say keep rolling with the articles.

Boring? People saying the same thing over, and over again, speakikng to the same audience and not winning any new "converts".

Why stop? Soon everyone will begin to realise what I’ve realised some time ago, too many samey articles will kill the golden goose, and an important issue will be confined to a small minority of lke minded people, hating anyone who digresses from the party line.

When I see a Kirkby article (apart from a few) I simply move on as I am bored rigid by different people peddling the same stuff.

If Toffeeweb want to continue to publish anti Kirkby articles with little editorial judgement or control, they can, its their trainset - but rather than illuminating the debate, it seems to me a sure fire way of killing it totally.

Is this really what they want?

Tom Coleman
126   Posted 24/05/2008 at 15:11:51

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As this thread has moved on to a... shall we say... debate about Location, please have a look at this following article:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/5052920.stm

I had this article in the back of my mind when I voted. Does Kirby fill any of the criteria?
Gav Norris
127   Posted 24/05/2008 at 15:11:30

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Chris Roberts and Ajamu, both quality comments. well written.

As for you Paul, you are in your bubble, your mates all agree on something, great good luck to you, I have a group of mates who all agree that Kirkby is the best thing to do, so that is why we have a vote, its over, time to move on.

I do find it funny that you think I am bothered if people agree with me or give me back-up as you call it, maybe some of the people who voted Yes have bothered to post, remember they are in the majority. Oh hang on, it was a fix wasn't it... or wait .. thats right it wasnt a fix but they told you porkies before a vote. How dare they, this is unheard of!!!!!
Bobby Wollow
128   Posted 24/05/2008 at 16:31:43

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As a Liverpool Hackney driver, I have not had one Yes voter in my cab.
Mark Perry
129   Posted 24/05/2008 at 17:14:01

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John Hughes must work for Hillary Clinton trying to get Michigan and Florida votes counted!

We had the vote, We the people voted. We voted YES. Let it go, move on.

Otherwise people will be demanding re-votes every time a vote doesn't go in their faviour
Tony Williams
130   Posted 24/05/2008 at 17:23:45

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How on earth did the vote end up the way it did? It seems from this thread that there were never any yes voters afterall.

Jay Campbell, read the rest of the post, I was making a point as to how easy it is to say something without proof on a forum.

You have a poster above saying that 100 of his season ticket holding mates all voted no and some will deffinitely not be going to Kirkby.

I can easily say I have 101 mates that all voted yes.

I think the clincher though is that Bobby the taxi driver has never had a yes voter in his cab, that surely proves the vote was rigged.
Tom Hughes
131   Posted 24/05/2008 at 19:07:17

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Chris Roberts,
KEIOC suppressing info? You are joking aren’t you? When have they done this, and how does it compare to Wyness’ howlers that effectively had him silenced at the last AGM?

Regardless of your dislike for this group of Evertonians, stick to the issues. ie Kirkby versus redevelopment or the Loop/WHP..... the rest is conjecture and politics.
Tom Hughes
132   Posted 24/05/2008 at 19:26:44

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Steve Mitchell,
I am hoping to go the Yankee stadium this year. It will be my 3rd visit. I haven?t really kept myself up to date with it to be honest, but I thought they were only moving over the road. You also forgot to mention that the Jets have been desperate to relocate to Manhatten for years and have only just agreed to continue sharing in Meadowlands.

Regardless, if you check world stadiums website they have plenty of the new downtown stadia on show. They also have a section containing the out of town versions that have gone. Unfortunately, I?m snowed under at the mo.
Tom Hughes
133   Posted 24/05/2008 at 20:03:04

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Tony W,
I believe at the recent Everton Independent supporters end-of-season "do", the whole audience broke into a chorus of "We?re not going to Kirkby"!!! This was hundreds of home and away blues, some of who have not missed a game ANYWHERE in literally decades. No-one countered with "Oh yes we are!" in true pantomime style, nor walked out in disgust.

Before the vote straw polls were carried out on away trip coaches and yes votes were almost non-existent. I believe each of the EFC forums including the Daily Post/Echo?s internet polls all recorded votes against Kirkby....... so perhaps you might understand people?s reservations about the result, especially as the club provided the data for those voting and so many went missing.

Neil Pearse
134   Posted 24/05/2008 at 20:24:26

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Are you insinuating that the vote was deliberately rigged Tom?
Tom Hughes
135   Posted 24/05/2008 at 21:31:49

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Neil,
Not insinuating anything, just saying that the "result" didn’t reflect ANY of the previous internet/telephone/straw polls. You would have perhaps expected some correlation...... then there’s the numerous accounts of people not getting ballot papers, and some getting more than one. Shareholders getting multiple votes? and that’s before you go into the ethics of not providing any option and hyping the Kirkby option to the max when supposedly trying to gain an impartial "mandate".

Like I say, no insinuations required!
Ajamu Mutumwa
136   Posted 24/05/2008 at 22:06:34

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Tom

When you?ve finished your little discussion with Lord Lucan, you might come back into the real world.

The database of supporters' names was supplied by Everton, but the vote itself was carried out by the Electoral Reform Service - an independent body who don?t go around rigging votes. This means that all ballot papers went directly to that organisation ? and not to Everton.

If Everton rigged the vote, they should sell their services to the Labour party as Labour would need a Zimbabwe style vote to stay in power.

You are also wrong again about the voting intention. Most polls taken before the vote showed a roughtly 50/50 split including this site.

There was even a small majority who liked the stadia, even though many had reservations.

But hey, don?t let the facts get in the way of a good conspiracy.

........would you like your choc ice now Mr Presley?
Neil Pearse
137   Posted 24/05/2008 at 22:20:50

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So you are insinuating that the vote was rigged Tom. Fine. At least now I can assume that most of what you say is nonsense, and I don’t have to take seriously anything you say about rebuilding Goodison anymore. You are clearly prepared to make anything up, or indulge in any abuse, in order to attack the move to Kirkby. Fine.
Gav Norris
138   Posted 24/05/2008 at 22:15:22

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Just a question, Tommy boy: if anyone had dared counter the chants at the dinner with opposition, what do you think would have happened to them? Abuse? Agression? Threat of violence? I think so too, as we all know when you passionate lot have a few beers you get "persuasive" so even if I had been there, I wouldn?t have said fuck all, so if other non-violent or conflict seeking fans had thought the same you would have never known. Hmmm...

Also, I wouldn?t have piped up on the coach again for similar reasons and the fact that the people holding the straw polls are not officials and would probably twist it anyway.

Tom, I love your passion and think you are probably a very intelligent bloke, but mate, let it go. It's over. In the words of the old tune "Know when to fold?em."
Neil Pearse
139   Posted 24/05/2008 at 22:28:02

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The problem with trying to have a serious discussion about Kirkby is that you Nos are so passionately opposed (fine of course in itself) that you just throw any argument at all, however ridiculous, contradictory or slanderous, at the Kirkby side of the question.

There are actually some very good arguments against Kirkby, but instead we regularly get such as: we are too poor to go to Kirkby and we are too rich to go to Kirkby; we are only going to Kirkby because Wyness has got his hand in the till and because Kenwright is hyping the value of his shares; and anyway the vote was deliberately rigged and corrupt; and the move will be a complete and utter financial disaster - although against all the laws of economics the price of Bill’s shares will somehow go up massively so he can sell out and sell us all down the river; and it would be cheaper to build a world class stadium on a traffic island in the middle of the city with a company no on has ever heard of; and people only voted Yes anyway because they are stupid gullible sheep; and actually very few actually did vote Yes, and no one at all would Yes now (well, at least I haven’t met any); Kirkby is a village a long way from Liverpool, like Milton Keynes is from Wimbledon; and it will cost millions and millions to decontaminate the land it is all going to get built on (and Tescos obviously haven’t noticed this yet, inexperienced as they are in these kind of things)....

This is the ’kitchen sink’ approach to Kirkby. You throw anything at it you can possibly think of, however silly and implausible, and contradictory of what you said a few moments ago. Occasionally the case against Kirkby is actually put reasonably on its merits, but this is all lost in the general morass of slander and confusion. If you want to know why you lost the vote, and are losing the post vote too - this is why.
Tom Hughes
140   Posted 24/05/2008 at 23:39:52

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Any of the above,
Where have I abused anyone in my last posting (or anywhere else for that matter). Read it again..... tell me where I have lied or made anything up!

I posted plenty on here regarding the Kirkby stadium, regarding redevelopment or stadia in general, I even drew one up for you to have a look at ( requiring a bit more effort and experience than posting a few lines on here)..... I have yet to see any one promoting Kirkby counter or respond to direct points made..... just political rhetoric regarding "militant" "revolutionaries" "EFC hating" KEIOC or your profession of faith in all things Everton despite a littany of deception from start to finish.

I then make some observations regarding the vote..... and it had you salivating to respond.

£78m and rising will never equal practically nothing, Largest park and ride scheme in UK will never equal most accessible stadium in UK, £78m+ will never equal non-viable redevelopment of GP. No other options when sainsbury’s were also looking at WHP...... The loop site not viable when world leading stadium designers show it is..... the list goes on!
Tom Hughes
141   Posted 24/05/2008 at 23:59:50

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Neil,
"why you lost the vote"....

The vote was lost because we were promised something that was totally undeliverable, and it was promoted to the hilt with no mention of viable options. Opposed only by a handfull of individuals who had only a few weeks to put a campaign together compared Tesco/Everton?s 18 months and vast resources.... and yet they still got the smallest majority of the 3 ground move votes to date.
Peter Hall
142   Posted 25/05/2008 at 00:07:23

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You remind me of Avram Grant who wanted a play-off for the Premier League title if Man U and Chelsea finished equal on points.

If the rule don?t suit us change them.
Christine Foster
143   Posted 25/05/2008 at 01:34:21

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I, like Tom and many others have never decended into personal abuse with any of my posts on any thread.
You may not agree with my stance but that does not mean that we respond in the same way people choose to do with mine, and other well put cases for the club to answer its critics and concerns.

I have never said that the vote was rigged only that the basis of the vote chose to ignore the options, and mis-stated our position. (GP, and no alternatives etc)

The criteria, the circumstances, the realirty of Kirkby has changed in the past 18 months as the costs have come out.

The Yes vote believe it is STILL a great deal, the No vote believe their case is vindicated by the facts that have come out.

In the midst of all of this the club remains silent.

THEY are allowing us to turn on each other because it will deflect the real issues they have. Mainly the management of the business that is the club.

Give the fans no information, give them speculation and they won?t see the mess ups made.

The board of EFC have come up short with Kirkby, its management, its PR, its financial costing, its exclusivity agreement and its treatment of fans, the dismissal of other options etc. The credibility of the CEO is destroyed and BK?s is tarnished as the days role on without a response from the club..

There won't be another vote, for the reasons I have stated before. The vote became a PR stunt that backfired. To try it again would only mean that the club had made some bad mistakes in selecting Kirkby Which they won?t do..

What the Yes, No or uncommitted voters, or Everton fans in general can?t deny is that the club statements have left its fan base split.

So just how long is the club going to hide behind the exclusitivity agreement that is over 18 month old (and was supposed to be for 3/4 months max)?

Bill Kenwright. Lay all the facts on the table as this debate will only become more devisive until the club can justify its position financially and morally.

You gave the vote and involved the fans in the process of choice. You can?t say to us now that we are not involved anymore. Otherwise the vote WAS a means to an end and there was never a choice on the table.
Tom Hughes
144   Posted 25/05/2008 at 07:17:58

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Just a quickie,
I know it’s a bit of an aside, but can I ask the yes voters on this thread..... if the club was to sell to a mega rich investor who would potentially be able to cover any stadium costs, would they still want Kirkby? Several of you have previously admitted that they thought that Kirkby is not the ideal solution for various reasons, so I just wondered if money was no option would you still be pushing for Kirkby?
Bob Turner
145   Posted 25/05/2008 at 08:22:44

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Dave

Thanks for the explanation (I have watched it, but with 2 toddlers, sleep deprivation has obviously made me a tad forgetful on non-Everton matters!).

I can appreciate that he winds you up - I do agree with you that some of his posts come across as overly optimistic, and are more likely to piss people off than convince anyone of the merits of his arguments (if, indeed, as you and other point out, there are any!). I remember the posts of Richard Dodd received very much the same reaction, though his did seem to be tempered with a bit more realism.

The point I’m trying to make is that this works both ways, and there are negative posts (both about the ground move, and Everton in general, which grate with "yes" voters too. And all we do is fight amongst ourselves about who is right, when what we all want is the best for the club.

The only difference is what we believe we can realistically achieve, and how we are going to achieve it.

I like to think that I am a decent blue, as I am sure you, and all others on here, are, or else why would we spend so much time on here posting. Sometimes I think, though, that we could have spent our time more productively than fighting with each other.

Anyway, it’s the summer, so time to relax, and dream of all the wonderful players who are going to get us into the Champions’ League next season!!
Neil Adderley
146   Posted 25/05/2008 at 07:14:18

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Yesterday, on the Brian Reade show (City Talk), for varying reasons (some of which are eloquently pointed out by Tom and Christine above) Liverpool Labour leader and Everton season ticket holder - Joe Anderson - reffered to this whole shambles (including the ballot) as "The Kirkby con."

Cllr Anderson then went on to say that he had (on Friday evening) discussions with a high ranking LCC official concerning the redevelopment of Goodison Park and specifically in regards to the council owned land surrounding Goodison.

The cries of "let it go" and "it’s over" are at best premature and at worst a symptom of the "Kirkby con." Thankfully the road to the retail park in Kirkby is becoming longer and more treacherous as each day passes.

As for a ’re-vote.’ I agree with Christine and others that it would be an admittance of defeat by the board and therefore, as long as they are in control of the club it will never happen. Although if a new owner(s) came in with enough financial clout to keep Everton FC in the city, the need for a vote would be negated.................
Bob Turner
147   Posted 25/05/2008 at 08:40:04

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Tom, in response to your question, for me, it would depend on what basis this investment would be made.

If he (or she!) bought out BK, as has been pointed out here, that clearly only profits BK - it would require some additional cash input to Everton to fund the stadium. So this new investor has 2 choices - he either lends the money to the company (which owns the club and all its assets), or the company issues new shares to the value of, say, £250m, and uses this cash to fund the stadium.

If the investor lends the money to the company, the company’s debt increases by £250m, and it is the company which takes the risk or whether it meets the loan repayments. OK, you say, maybe, as a benevolent investor he wouldn’t charge any interest. The debt however is still there, and whenever he wants out of the club, he says, "right, I want my money back now please" - and we are in the shit. I believe this is akin to the situation across the park, at Man Utd (though I have read somewhere that Abramovich has "ringfenced" his input to Chelsea, so maybe they have more protection.

The second option would be that the company issues new shares which the investor buys. The investor takes the risk, because he is not guaranteed (a) any interest (he will only get a return if the company makes any profits so it can pay dividends to him) or (b) the return of his capital (as a shareholder, he would be last in the line for repayment if the company went bust).

You seem an intelligent guy, so I apologise if I’m telling you anything you already know, but this is fundamental to why I believe in moving to Kirkby.

Aside from the minimal chance of finding such a mega rich investor, to find one who is willing to take all the risk (and issue new shares rather than lending the money to the company) makes it more unrealstic.

Your question, though, presupposed that we had found a mega rich investor, so, after all my waffle, my answer is that I wouldn’t trust them not to load the debt onto the company, which is obviously the situation we’d want to avoid.

Maybe we should be tapping up Sir Paul McCartney ;-)
Gav Norris
148   Posted 25/05/2008 at 08:58:13

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We have had the vote, a re-vote is not gonna happen. If it were to happen, that would mean that something has changed e.g. Kirkby has been ruled out due to financial reasons etc.

It would change the rules of democracy, how many times have we re-voted in general elections? And yes politicians do tell porkies before a vote too

As for the Tom's question, if we had the money to stay and make a new stadium in the city, I'd be all for it. But I'd also like to have a house on MTV cribs, but right now a one bedroom flat is the best I can hope for.

If I win the lottery, I'd buy the house. Before that I work with what I have got.
Tony Kelly
149   Posted 25/05/2008 at 08:58:36

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Can I just explain to the Yes voters why Kirkby is not viable. Would you agree that the vast majority of our supporters come from the City, Wirral and North Wales? Well I can tell due to the location in Kirkby and the traffic situation, the vast majority of our supporters would get to Villa Park quicker than get to a home game in Kirkby!
Tony Williams
150   Posted 25/05/2008 at 10:39:39

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Of course I would love a world class stadium in the city centre and a mega rich owner who cares less about their money than he does Everton.....but I would also love a threesome with Kelly Brook and Lucy Pinder.........I actually think that the threesome would be more likely to happen than this mythical saviour of ours.

Bob puts across the worries with such an investment well. We will still end up with the debt it just means that we would have a chairman who will be able to get the loan for say £250m.

A lot of posters bring up the point about the lies/misinformation contained within the glossy leaflet with the voting slip, however, the question was not loaded nor did it talk about the finance, it simply asked "Are you in favour for a move to Kirkby?". Yes there was all the propaganda being fed to us and I woudn’t have expected anything less from a company that wants the vote to go in there favour.

My vote was down to what my head felt was right (at the time) and I put aside sentimentallity and overuled my heart.

As I have said many, many tmes, we should have never been put in that position by the club. They should have told what they were doing and dealt with the consequences.
Ajamu Mutumwa
151   Posted 25/05/2008 at 10:38:07

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OK, lets all stop the insults.

I apologise if I?ve insulted anyone, specifically Tom Hughes in this instance.

Let me say though, you cannot have a debate when an "opinion" is based on a blatant falsehood where there is no truth.

I say it again, the more verciferous No voters are a minority, and while I don?t think it will happen, I would contend (and this is only an opinion), that if a vote was retaken, the no campaign would still lose.


I would dearly love to support the No campaign, but to do it seems to me that I would need to

1. Start calling everyone who voted Yes ignorant


2. Hate the board more than I hate the rs (and Chelski)

3. Call into question the integrity of anyone involved in, or supports Kirkby

4. Peddle falsehoods to win an argument.


I can?t do any of these things.
Tim Keen
152   Posted 25/05/2008 at 11:09:30

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If one Yes voter, who still believes the move is right for the club, can spare 30 minutes why not put together an article explaining why you believe it to be.

I am genuinely interested, there seem to be several of you on this thread so please take the time to do it.

Cover areas such as:
Financing the new stadium
The transport plans
Expected additional income

I’ve seen these from No voters but I haven’t from people behind the scheme. There are huge amounts of data in the planning application to help your arguements - read them and then put an article together. Thanks.
Bob Turner
153   Posted 25/05/2008 at 12:01:18

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Tim, not sure if you?re new to TW, but I?ve read plenty of articles with coherent arguments for the move ? indeed, there are plenty of comments in this thread alone which I think should suffice for your needs.

As has been stated before, repeating ad nauseam the same old arguments does not advance the argument of either side any more ? I think we have reached saturation point.
Bo Sanderson
154   Posted 25/05/2008 at 13:55:28

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Neil Pearse has hit the nail on the head there. That's how I feel in regards to this arguement.

The situation isn?t helped by the fact that KEIOC haven?t exactly acted in the best ways, and have also lied and deceived in their campaign.

At the end of the day it's a choice between a turd sandwich and a giant douch... ie, they?re both as bad as each other.
Gerard Madden
155   Posted 25/05/2008 at 13:56:04

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In answer to Tom’s point - well yes, if we had a takeover from a money-no-object multi-billionaire whose fortune was not ’dodgy’, he intended to stay for good, was not prepared to load debt onto the business (like Gillett/Hicks) and was proposing an iconic 60,000 (Extendable to 80,000 or more) stadium on the banks of the Royal Blue Mersey then that would simply be irrestitable from my point o’ view. I’ll bump another post in here if anything like this happens or any evidence pops up that anything like that is possible to happen. ;)
Paul Thompson
156   Posted 25/05/2008 at 14:16:37

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’’Gerard Madden’’
Is this post, in your role as board members’ bitch, the opening gambit in preparing the announcement of Berezovsky’s take-over?
Tony Kelly
157   Posted 25/05/2008 at 10:13:07

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I have just read a contributor who was obviously pro-Kirkby stating that New York Yankees were locating outside New York. I have just been on the Yankees website and they are locating adjacent to their present stadium. I do wish the apologists for Kirkby would get their facts right.
Gareth Humphreys
158   Posted 25/05/2008 at 15:57:12

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Tim Keen
I have asked that question earlier on in this very same thread and was told by Neil Pearse that there were such articles.

Perhaps Neil or Bob could point us in the right direction???

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