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Remedial Equations

By Tony Marsh :  12/06/2008 :  Comments (112) :
I am dead against Everton FC relocating to Kirkby and nothing or no-one will ever change my mind on the subject. Everton Football Club and its world-class supporters deserve better than this.

I don't think there are to many people out there who would disagree that this whole sordid affair now reeks to high heaven. It's an absolute disgrace the way the Everton Board of Directors, Tesco and the Liverpool Echo have led a large number of our loyal fanbase down the garden path. Well the truth is starting to come out but I wonder if it's now to late for this decision to be reversed.

I don't know how Keith Wyness and his boss Kenwright can look in the mirror without laughing after the strokes they have pulled. It's the kind of deal that has been drawn up on the back of a beer mat and can be slung down the Khazi once the bulldozers move in. Is there anyone out there who really believes Wyness gives a fuck where Everton play or what happens to them after he does a runner?

The whole thing stinks and so do the men behind it. Who the fuck taught Kenwright and Wyness to add up? Where did they get those original figures from? "Chance of a lifetime" and "a world-class stadium" quotes are one thing but actually lying to the fans about the cost and lining your own pockets at the same time is another. Wyness is on a right earner from this move and to think a majority of our lot voted for it makes me cringe.

It's heartbreaking to think that in a few years time the once mighty Everton will be playing football on a retail park in Knowsley at the Blockbuster Bowl while there mortal enemies Liverpool will be prancing around Stanley Park in a brand new ground in the finest city in Europe. Once we go to Kirkby, the city is lost and we will no longer be a part of it. That's the reality of what's happening.

I know I won't be able to stomach going to the Ethel Austin Arena to watch the Blues as it will be too painful. Knowing now what we do about the whole carry-on, going to the Carpet Right Arena would show a complete lack of moral fibre. It's like going for a bevy with a guy who just nicked your wallet and I want no part of this con job.

I am not one of those who thinks it will be easy to rebuild Goodison Park or a plot of land in the middle of town will fall from the sky but surely there has to be something better than this fucking farce. I thought it was the job of the board to do what's best for the club and its fans and not what's best for them. Because thats what Billy and Keith are doing.... How fucking naieve I am?

How can a club that finished 5th in the so-called best league in the world, where money is no object, have no Plan B, C or D? It's an outrage and these two muppets are getting away with it.

Please, someone from the goverment stop them before they kill the club... our club! Then again there are those who think it's a great idea and can't wait to dessert the city ..... Wake up and smell the Cherryfield Drive to the M57 taliback why dont yuz?? Because you will spend enough time in it once the job's done.

Reader Comments

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James Byrne
1   Posted 13/06/2008 at 05:16:45

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Great article Tony and one that demonstrates the injustice of this whole affair; I don’t have the answers mate but I am just as frustrated and pissed off that this saga has come this far.

But once again I will say it; lets all thank the YES voters for contributing to this whole fucking nonsense; seriously, what proper fan of EFC would even think for a second how we will survive outside the City boundaries while the shite piss themselves laughing in their lovely new stadium.

Richard Osborne
2   Posted 13/06/2008 at 06:15:53

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Tony, I really don’t agree with much of what you write on here but you hit the nail on the head with this.

The whole ground move saga has dragged on for so long now, I fear that many ’no’ voters are actually letting apathy take the upper hand.

Unfortunately, this is exactly what the fat shit, Wyness wants. I can’t abide this fucking oaf and his slimy low-down ways. The fact he can behave in the manner he does and we, as supporters, sit there and let him systematically destroy everything that the club stands for, is a complete disgrace.

Wyness needs to go, forcibly. Kenwright needs to step aside and let someone with real business acumen take the reigns. What is Richard Branson up to these days?
john sreet
3   Posted 13/06/2008 at 06:20:28

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Well I don’t often agree with this man, but on this occasion I do, although IF we go then we go........however I’ve said it before so here goes again...KEIOC should organise a mass boycot of the opening games of the season, if there really are a majority of fans who hate this idea then only 18000 turning up for the first 4 matches would say it all. So you did’t get a vote, ok so now you do and vote with your feet.
Bob Turner
4   Posted 13/06/2008 at 06:16:58

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Your comments are duly noted, and I, along with the many thouands of other people who voted "Yes", to attending your masterclasses in "How to be a proper fan of Everton".

I’m just wondering if you personally are going to deliver the course, or whether the numerous other "proper fans" are going to assist.

I would also be grateful if you could publish on TW your course material, perhaps some guidelines and pointers in how to be a "proper fan", so that I can get a head start in this important subject.

Do I need to read the 40 years’ worth of accumulated programmes my father and I have built up from going to the match - would that assist in becoming a "proper fan"?

Or maybe I need to watch some of my old video tapes and DVDs to relive some of the memories of what it was like to be a "proper fan" in the 80s onwards?

Would you suggest I read all of the Everton books I have bought again, so I can attend your masterclass with some idea of what a "proper fan" should think?

Or maybe I should just reflect on the many thousands of memories supporting Everton over the past 30 odd years have given me - now I see the error of my ways, I could analyse my behaviour over these years to see where I have gone wrong, and apply the guiding principles you, and the other "proper fans", are so kindly offering.

Neil Pearse
5   Posted 13/06/2008 at 06:19:02

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Perfectly reasonable to say you don’t want to go to Kirkby. But the intensifying angry ranting and vitriol towards BK / KW and fellow Evertonian Yes voters is unworthy and demeaning, and more importantly still just hot air leading nowhere.

Do you guys think that using words like "sordid", "injustice" and "disgrace" often enough will somehow make it so? Or that saying over and over "there must be a better alternative for our great club" will somehow magic one into existence?

The facts that you will simply not accept are that Kirkby is a likely destination for the club because we are poor, need additional revenues, and cannot afford anything better. It has nothing whatsoever to do with KW’s bonus (he’d get one whatever we did), or BK believing that it would be better to play in Kirkby than on Stanley Park (he’s not crazy). Given our highly constrained financial situation, Kirkby is a perfectly understandable response, and quite probably the best alternative of a very small number of not particularly brilliant options that we actually have.

Join the real world. It may not be very pleasant (I don’t like it that much myself). But it’s surely better than continuing to float angrily and aimlessly in space, believing things that aren’t true, and hoping for things that aren’t possible.
Dave Wilson
6   Posted 13/06/2008 at 05:56:17

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Tony Marsh

your pissing against the wind lad, KW has previous, but the Jocks saw right through him
The tradgedy is, he isnt even a mediocre con man
I’d have bet my fucking house against Evertonions buying the "magic beans" this guy was selling

When was the last time you met anyone who would admit - in person - to voting yes ??? it would be like admitting you bought a "genuine" Rolex in the aleouse, on April 1st, from this fella in a stripe shirt, who was carrying a bag with the word "swag"wrote on it

I was certain this thing would be called in, but against all logic it still hangs over us like a very dark cloud

Neil Pearse
7   Posted 13/06/2008 at 06:55:18

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There is a phenomenon in psychology called ’splitting’. To avoid inconvenient truths and emotions that you cannot face, you simply split off all the anger and frustration you have, and park it another human being. All problems that you have are suddenly identified as having one and only one source - this evil person. It is very relieving.

This is what is now happening with KW. We are going to Kirkby solely because KW is a corrupt con man. He is purely interested in his bonus (which apparently he will only get if we go to Kirkby), and he has conned BK, and then he has conned all the Yes voters (he is a man of truly magical abilities).

Join the real world. It is not all about evil KW and the magical spells he has cast on us all. It is about the financial state of the club and the situation we are actually in. The truth is painful, but it really is true.
John Royle
8   Posted 13/06/2008 at 07:11:20

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Wow, that’s some sad shite- even by the author’s usual standards.
Jimmy Rimmer
9   Posted 13/06/2008 at 07:16:40

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I can’t believe I’m going to write this but....

I........ agree......... with.......... Tony......... Marsh!

There, I said it! Not often in my life has this happened. I always read your input with interest Tony, and although your negativity towards all things Moyes never fails to leave a bitter taste in the mouth, I’m with you all the way on this issue fella.

I pray every night that the right decision is made for the good of Everton Football Club. I do fear however, that a move to the Tesco Dome will destroy the soul of this great club.
Adam Cunliffe
10   Posted 13/06/2008 at 07:45:52

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I agree 100% with every word you wrote Tony.Fantastic article which shows just how bad it will be if we move to Kirkby.The whole thing is farcical and is just another way for KW to line his back pocket.

Our great club will go right down the pan if this move goes ahead and when KW goes back under the rock he came from we will be the ones who are stuck with the sinking ship.
Harry Meek
11   Posted 13/06/2008 at 07:59:13

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I wonder if ,when Kirkby is turned down by GONW-as it surely will be-Wyness will have the decency to fall on his sword?I wouldn’t bet on it.
Neil Lenighan
12   Posted 13/06/2008 at 08:09:52

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More to thr point,Harry,if ’calling in’means a delay of two years and the end of the idea’as the fat twat has stated,will he do one together with his pathetic chairman?
Paul OHanlon
13   Posted 13/06/2008 at 08:20:49

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Neil, firstly your point about us needing this move to increase revenues...

I think we’d all agree we need to increase revenue. Anyone who’s looked through our annual accounts will see this. However I’m concerned at how much extra revenue this stadium will actually create compared to Goodison. Originally KW stated it would give Moyes an extra £10m a year trasnfer funds. To be honest, I wasn’t overly impressed with that figure and since then, a whole host of ’truthes’ about the costs have come out and I find it hard to trust this mans figures. Putting my doubt in his honesty (and simple maths) aside taking into account the rising costs of steel and concrete since the plans were made (40-50%), the decreased amount we’ll now get for Bellefield, the higher interest payments for loans and the councils bombshell that they’ll not only want the stadium 100 times a year for free but that they’ll also want a percentage of our profits made outside of much of that £10m will Moyes really be getting? Will it be worth moving our club out of the city and lumping it with massive additional debt for £5m a year extra?

Secondly your point about Kirkby being the only stadium we can do you know that? We’ve been in an exclusivity agreement with Tesco and KMBC for the past 18 months and refused to sit round a table with anyone willing to offer alternatives. I would’ve loved to hear more about Sainsbury’s proposals for Walton Hall Park for instance, but we’ll never know unless we enter into talks with these people. Then there’s the redevelopment of Goodison which BK says simply isn’t possible...where’s the document to prove this? He sanctioned a study on this subject in 2000 which proved it could be done, so where’s his proof now that this has changed?
Terry Holland
14   Posted 13/06/2008 at 08:33:25

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What a load of rubbish.

Would love to know how just because we are in the Premier league "Money is no Object".

Terry Holland
15   Posted 13/06/2008 at 08:50:37

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Why do people keep going on about Walton Hall Park.

The council through it out. By saying we could not have the park.
Dean Williamson
16   Posted 13/06/2008 at 08:37:37

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I just hope to God it is called in.
I added my name to the petition yesterday.

I know we are poor but the day we move to Kirby is the day we cease to be Everton. We will be the new MK Dons.
Steve Templeton
17   Posted 13/06/2008 at 08:49:10

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If Kirkby goes tits up then why should KW fall on his sword?

He is an employee of the club and has been asked by the board to push through the stadium move to Kirkby, Following your logic then should Ian Ross and the players that supported the move under the instructions of the board also resign?
John Andrews
18   Posted 13/06/2008 at 08:56:04

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Rant or no rant there is a very basic truth in that which you have written Tony and I agree with you 100%.
David Torley
19   Posted 13/06/2008 at 09:07:06

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Being an ex-pat I didn’t get a vote but I would have voted no. That said, I don’t believe anyone is corrupt or stupid. I believe they are trying their best to make good 35 years of lack of investment in the club.

I’ll still support the club come what may because I AM a proper fan.
Mike Dunne
20   Posted 13/06/2008 at 09:12:44

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To all the YES voting (funny, I have NEVER come across a yes voter in person) financial "experts" who repeat the mantra that revenue increase is guaranteed by moving to Kirkby I would like to point out that it is they and other supporters who will be expected to pay a premium increase for their seats, food, beer and all other merchandise which will be controlled within the confines of the KFC Tescodome. No haemorrhaging of fans monies to pubs chippies and sweetshops as there won?t be any. If you are happy to be fleeced by the club to increase its revenue then fine. If you have not considered that this will happen then start thinking what it will mean. Your match day ?experience? is going to become a hell of a lot more expensive.
Ray Roche
21   Posted 13/06/2008 at 09:08:12

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A couple of comments on this thread have used the words "Join the real world". Do they think that moving to Kirkby will be entering their "real world"? Will all the things we weren’t told about the move,like the non-existent public transport,the lack of car parking,the world class stadium which turns out to be ,in the Knowsley Planning document , described as "utilitarian and cost-conscious design ".
(The Council will also get free use of the stadium for a set number of occasions.If we can’t "fit them in" when they want it we will have to pay them compensation. ) Beginning to look a lot less attractive in this "real world" isn’t it. There WILL be people who will not relish the extra cost and inconvenience involved in attending a match in Kirkby on a miserable February night,no matter how long they’ve been a supporter. I’ve been going since 1959-60. I now live in North Wales so the journey will involve the Runcorn Bridge instead of the Tunnel so,parking aside,it’ll make little difference to me. But the thought of the move sickens me. It’s not just the "giving up the city" that bothers me.I just can’t see us being the force we have become in ten years time,with a dwindling support as us older fans stop going and with fewer young fans taking our place.
I’ve never been a fan of a shared stadium before but this city,and the two clubs in it,missed a fantastic opportunity to build a truly World Class Stadium at the Kings Dock.....
Andrew Steen
22   Posted 13/06/2008 at 09:32:06

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I do not usually agree with you but this time i support your article 100%

The article on the main page relating to a GP re build feasability study conducted in 2000 has pissed me off no end!

If our board had the vision to re develop goodison for a grand total of circa £40mn maybe...... just maybe..... we would now be in a position whereby we would need to be expanding to 60k arena!

If they had redeveloped GP in the 3-4 year time period our club would have benefited from a considerable increase in Turnover from Corporate sales etc...... in turn this would have put more money in the transfer kitty!!!!...... imagine where we would be now if DM had an extra £30mn to spend over the past 2 years??

The last ten years have been an unprecedented glory period in the British economy...... the premier league has benefited massively from this..... big corporates didnt care how much a box would cost as long as there names was there!!!!!

Now as we are approaching the 12th month of "le Crunch" the economy is in a terrible position...... and we are now looking to spend / (raise) £78mn for a stadium in Kirby which will beinferior to the 55k seater stadium that the year 2000 feasability report proposed!!

Until the lack of vision is addressed at the very top then in my opinion we will never be a top 4 club!
Ed Fitzgerald
23   Posted 13/06/2008 at 09:39:58

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I don’t always agree with you but on this issue I do 100%. Every No voter should encourage every Blue to complete that petition and e-mail Blears and Co directly.
EJ Ruane
24   Posted 13/06/2008 at 09:43:36

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Agree with every single word of that Tony.
Lee Penswick
25   Posted 13/06/2008 at 09:32:03

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Well said Tony i totally agree. Just how the fuck on earth did the majority agree to this fucking shambles. Also i agree with you John Street, Lets vote with our feet and ram this point down the board’s throats. Surely anyone with half brain can see this move to poxy flat pack shed in the middle of a fucking retail park in Kirkby will be the death of ’our’ club. We are not Bolton, Wigan, Reading or any other 2 bob club, we are Everton one the Greatest and most historic clubs in football. We deserve better.
Chris Briddon
26   Posted 13/06/2008 at 09:56:40

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So all you people won’t be going to Kirkby then - well that will solve the transport problem for those of us who do.

I didn’t realise that one of the qualifications of being a ’real fan’ was to stop going as soon as oyur club moves less than 10 miles up the road.

You see, last time I looked I was an Everton FC supporter - not a Goodison Park supporter or a Walton supporter. I go wherever my club goes.

the last lot that refused to move when the club did are now the people who most supporters seem to be so fearful of these days as one of the main arguements appears to be ’what will the Liverpool supporters say’.

Well guess what, I’m an Everton supporter so I don’t give a stuff what Liverpool supporters say.

just out of interest, if Liverpool get their new 70,000 stadium on Stanley Park and we remian in the crumbling shed that has become Goodison Park over the road, do you think that would be a better image to have, gazing across the park at their new superstadium and wandering what might have been as we sit in Goodison Park with our obsructed views and gradually deteriorating stands?
Gavin Ramejkis
27   Posted 13/06/2008 at 09:01:47

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Hi Neil, even with the latest release of figures detrimental to the profits from Destination Kirkby can this plan still have a valid business case? The monies demanded by KMBC were not even included in the original projected figures and KW’s £10m, or "up to £10m" as was pointed out by someone in an older post claiming semantics, figure for transfers is looking even less likely as each latest piece of information regards the project is published in the public domain. As the senior sponsor of the project BK is ultimately responsible for making the decision internally as to whether or not the project is cancelled internally, he can’t lay the blame at KW’s door as he is being used as the project manager of this project. People, myself included, castigate KW for various well published reasons as to his previous "form" in business and his almost identical attempt to do the same at Aberdeen claiming the stadium was falling down and they had to move etc, his acrimonious departure from Australia running a business that failed to promote the Sydney Olympics and out of court settlement with Peter Zhao. I voted against Kirkby not through a hatred of Kirkby but because I believe the site is wrong as Kirkby will never be a city or have the attractions to attract the corporates this project claims will come and suddenly spend great swathes of cash with us or that a town as small as Kirkby will ever be able to support a stadium we were promised that has now been revealed as significantly less, again the smart arses point to semantics but the CEO chose the phrases not me. The glossy brochures did not excite me as artists impressions seldom do, I decided on knowledge of the location through spending years there as a child at relatives and over the last few years at remaining relatives as a visitor. I don’t deny the town needs a major overhaul but has needed this for over forty years and KMBC has done nothing in all that time. From a purely selfish perrspective the lack of parking at the site has alienated my entire match carload of passengers; two disabled passengers that could never do the park and walk, the club still not responded to what they are expected to do, and as a fully able adult I could do the walk but why should I be forced to? I pay a good deal of money to the club I live year in year out, bring three or four similarly well paying passengers to the club, often having to drive from wherever I am working for weekday matches for what can be an 8 hour drive if I am at two of my sites, collect my passengers and onwards to the match, add to that a potential three hour addition for park and ride/walk and sorry the phrase "game over" springs to mind. I’m sure there are literally hundreds or thousands that will find if the access to the match involves several additional hours especially for weekday evening matches they will soon be put off; these matches are seldom sold out as it is. So sorry Neil I have to disagree very strongly again, the sums still don’t add up to me, the project screams failure and stubbornness to acknowledge key failures to me, it is alienating four or five season ticket holders in just one car, a small loss to the club but just how many small losses will it take to snowball to even more loss of income to the club and again impact to the £10m or so which must have an impact to the team? Before I get the usual moronic "don’t need fans like you" pish, have any of you ever paid for my season ticket or fuel or road tax or car servicing or subsidised me and my passengers to and from the match?
Ajamu Mutumwa
28   Posted 13/06/2008 at 09:54:00

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I wondered when Tony Marsh would pipe up in this debate.

I’d only say one thing. When the No camp talk about "our club", its not the exclusive preserve of the minority who lost the vote.

All season the only positive article you’ve written about Everton was when you were forced to concede that our 12 game run was great.

Not a positive word on any of the signings, even if you hate Moyes, not a word on finishing in the top ten for the second successive season.

Only your usual negative bile.

Its not something that I’d wish on any fan, but if your not going to Kirkby I can only rejoice that such a negative and bitter character is not around when we parade a cup within Kirkby.

Unfortunately, like that bad penny, I know you’ll be back next season. This time I promise not to bother to even read your articles.
Paul Thompson
29   Posted 13/06/2008 at 10:12:30

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Chris, Every time I go past the waterfont I wonder what might have been re the King’s Dock, state-of-the-art, world-class, banks of the Mersey stadium
I’ll never forgive Kenwright & Co for replacing that vision with a flat-pack on the banks of the Alt

With Kirkby I feel as if I was promised a new bike for Christmas and got a Smith’s gift voucher instead
Rob Penlington
30   Posted 13/06/2008 at 08:29:40

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Join the real world. It is not all about evil KW and the magical spells he has cast on us all. It is about the financial state of the club and the situation we are actually in. The truth is painful, but it really is true.
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Neil Pearce I suggest you join the real world.Keith Wyness was brought to Everton on an annual salary of £400,000 to generate more income for the club and he has failed to deliver.He has outsourced all marketing, and runs his own business in the clubs time, you just could not make it up, and as you say Neil "the truth is painful,but it really is true"
Phil Bellis
31   Posted 13/06/2008 at 10:25:35

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Ajamu, you’ve just stopped me dead when I read ’parade a cup within Kirkby’
One of the happiest days of my life (and, I presume, Tony’s) was 15 May 1966

Still knackered from my first trip to Wembley the day before, I was in the crowd outside St George’s Hall in company with what seemed like the rest of the planet
I’ll take the joy of that day to the grave - hundreds of thousands of Blues - what a feeling of togetherness - a carnival for OUR club in OUR city
Will a tour of the borough to Kirkby Council Offices be the same?
Paul OHanlon
32   Posted 13/06/2008 at 10:42:50

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Terry Holland...

How have LCC threw (not "through") out the idea of us having Walton Hall Park when we haven’t even applied to build on it? It was mentioned to Warren Bradley and he said no, just like LCC said no when it was originally suggested a new ground be built on Stanley Park, but that hasn’t stopped the shite has it?

My point is until you follow the correct procedures and place pressure on the council by submitting a planning application you can’t dismiss a site.
Gerard Madden
33   Posted 13/06/2008 at 10:42:30

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At the end of the day drama queens like Tony Marsh will not go - but I don't think its a bad thing, the one hundred or so ?supporters? who will decide not to go will be easily replaced by committed supporters of the club. As for the likes of Phil Bellis and their views of how a future cup parade will be routed, well old Gedney thinks we?ll see a similar model to what Man Utd do, Utd go through Trafford and Manchester and we shall go through Kirkby and Liverpool - no problemo. ;)
Ajamu Mutumwa
34   Posted 13/06/2008 at 10:37:55

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Phil Bellis

Your post, more than any shows why the No and Yes camp won?t agree. It's not a debate about facts and figures, its about emotion.

Nothing can be exactly the same.

The only point I?d make it this: staying at Goodison, and doing nothing will do more to kill our club than anything else.

Sure we?ll be within the political boundaries of the City of Liverpool, yippeee!

But when the clowns across the park build their spaceship, we?ll still be in a not fit for purpose stadium, trying to generate increased income from a stadium where overheads will continue to rise.

Given that LCC won?t even let us sell our own property (Bellefield) - can anyone see any real prospect of us getting a new ground, and being able to use that as the basis to compete within the city of Liverpool?

I can?t
Terry Holland
35   Posted 13/06/2008 at 10:40:58

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Why do you No Voters know best??

It really baffles me the way, you are all so right and that the yes voters and the board are completely wrong.

Phil, How do you know that we wont be standing on the Steps of St Georges hall again. Why cant the Procession start at Kirkby and Finish there.

Oh sorry, you know someone who works for LCC and they are not going to let the thousands of potenial money spending people come in to town
Jay Campbell
36   Posted 13/06/2008 at 10:53:51

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I’ve been saying for ages don’t give them your money and vote with your feet. I’ve had the arse to do it and will not fall for this "loyalty" rubbish or "get behind the team not matter what" shite.

Madden with a bit of luck this project will get lashed by the government and you can go on hunger strike in protest.
Steven Wolfe
37   Posted 13/06/2008 at 10:35:50

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One of the most annoying and dissapointing things for me on this whole issue is the fact that there are still Evertonians who are for this abomiable gound move. I could understand why some people were taken in initially re all the propoganda, but to still support it now knowing all the facts is fucking incredible!

It strikes me that these people think they are supporting EFC but they are not ? they are supporting BK and KW blindly, regardless of what facts and figures come out and then trying to justify them to everyone else.

One thing I used to boast about to other mates around the country is how knowledgeable scousers/EFC fans are about their footy... how fucking ridiculous would I look like introducing them to the likes of Madden, Wordsworth, etc who advocate taking MY beloved club out of MY city to a fucking retail park in the middle of nowhere that looks shite and cheap?

It sounds dramatic but my life will change forever the day EFC move to Kirkby, they have always been a constant crux for me, no matter what happens in my life: lose my job, bird leaves me, fall out with family etc.. EFC have always been there, and soon they may not because, as has been pointed out before, MY EFC will be gone and corporate cash cow will be in its place that has nothing to do with EFC whatsoever, and I am dreading this.

Terry Holland
38   Posted 13/06/2008 at 11:00:10

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Why should the club spend money and follow up on something when Bradley said No?

Twice we have asked to build on a park, twice we have been told no.

Why would you go back and be turned away for a third time?
Phil Bellis
39   Posted 13/06/2008 at 11:01:11

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Tony H,
I’m just presuming that the City of Liverpool won’t pay for the policing, clean-up etc of a reception for a football club from another town
I hope you’re right and one day we’ll see Everton parade a trophy back in the City
Ajamu me there, gulty. Football is about emotions, not just a business; if we all were just concerned about money and trophies we’d do a Rooney now. Those who understand...This club to me is the accumulation of its past as well as the hopes for its future - Will Cuff’s team, Joe Mercer’s et al
John Sreet
40   Posted 13/06/2008 at 11:12:50

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I hardly ever agree with Mr Marsh, and yes he does rant, but makes some good points here. I went to the New Wembley to watch England in the rain one cold night not long ago. Trying to get back to London was a nightmare, hardly and transport, tens of thousands of fans. I promised my self never again, not even with a free ticket. If Everton have half the problems then I can see lots of missing supporters within a short space of time. Imagine taking your kids and then spending two hours getting home in the rain...and ya got thanks!
If the move is inevitable, there?s a lot of sorting out to do!
Mike Dunne
41   Posted 13/06/2008 at 11:16:46

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Blaming LCC. is paranoid shite.

LCC bent over backwards to accommodate Everton at Kings Dock. Delaying the final decision by 7 months to see if KENWRIGHT could raise the £30m.

Gregg had the money, the balls and the business acumen to make it work but KENWRIGHT would not allow Gregg to take control.

Did we ever get so much as an explanation from KENWRIGHT why the project fell through? One day it was on the next it was all over and never mentioned again.

We are here because of KENWRIGHT.

He is responsible for the financial mess that the club are in. Kirkby if successful represents his opportunity to sell out at a nice profit, scuttle off back to luvvy-land and fuck the consequences thereafter.

The man is a fraud.

Bryan Roberts
42   Posted 13/06/2008 at 11:08:57

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When will you people realise it! The reason Everton are relocating is because your city council did not want and could not be bothered to keep us in your city. KEIOC is a luddite like organisation resenting progress and failing to recognise the truth that Liverpool City Council have done nothing. Throw your bile at those who are trying to do their best to progress our club. It might not be perfect but the surroundings of Kirby cannot possibly be worse than the area that Goodiosn Park located in. A stadium in a retail park sounds like a good idea compared to where we are now. I wonder what visiting supporters think when they see the area around Goodison. At least European games are at night so you can?t really see it. Good luck to the board in their brave move for the future and lets hope that the government does not call it in.

Remember we sing we?re the pride of Merseyside - not Liverpool and we will still be on the banks of the Royal blue Mersey. Remember it?s your city council through their lack of action who have forced us out not the board.
Tony Waverleas
43   Posted 13/06/2008 at 11:36:37

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Wouldn’t it be easier for everyone if once and for all we agreed that the "No" voters are stout-hearted, sterling, upright citizens who love Everton FC more than the "Yes" voters who are in turn black-hearted low-lives whose greatest wish is a barely-suppressed desire to take a dump on Dixie’s statue.
Oh and Lyndon/Michael do you really think it’s a wise idea to allow/encourage articles on here that label senior executives at our club liars and accuse them of lining their own pockets? Really? I’d suggest you check with your legal advisers if you think the answer to that question is "Yes".
Gavin Ramejkis
44   Posted 13/06/2008 at 11:34:32

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Whatever happens it will all be down to BK as the majority shareholder. The board are responsible for strategic decisions and the CEO KW for the day to day running of the business. The here and now stuff; marketing, ticketing, catering, etc are down to KW and the long term what is happening to the club is down to BK and his board. Major decisions will need to be authorised by BK before KW can implement them so don’t forget whatever happens who is ultimately responsible.
EJ Ruane
45   Posted 13/06/2008 at 11:32:32

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Gerard Madden (that real Everton supporter who’s nothing to do with Tesco HONEST!) has come up with the most illogical bits of logic I think I’ve ever read.

In fact, it’s so confusing as to be almost...genius.

It is...

"The one hundred or ?supporters? who will decide not to go will be easily replaced by committed supporters of the club"

So let me get this straight.

There are supporters like Tony (and me!) who pack it in if Kirkby happens.

We are ’replaced’ by COMMITTED supporters of the club who presumably aren’t going at the moment (coz obviously, if they ARE going now, they can’t ’replace’ anyone).

If anyone can figure this out please let me know.

(obviously my first thought was to put it down to GM’s usual staggering dumb-as-fuckness, but I’m happy to be proved wrong)
EJ Ruane
46   Posted 13/06/2008 at 11:49:27

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Tony. Re...

"Wouldn?t it be easier for everyone if once and for all we agreed that the "No" voters are stout-hearted, sterling, upright citizens who love Everton FC more than the "Yes" voters who are in turn black-hearted low-lives whose greatest wish is a barely-suppressed desire to take a dump on Dixie?s statue".

Fine - that IS what I think, although I DON’T think you’d take a dump on Dixie’s statue......I mean how would you get up there? (I reckon you’d just go behind it)
Dick Fearon
47   Posted 13/06/2008 at 11:51:15

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Hey Tony, I don’t often agree with you and sure as hell I don’t this time either.
Rob Penlington
48   Posted 13/06/2008 at 11:51:13

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Mike Dunne
Spot on mate
Gavin Ramejkis
49   Posted 13/06/2008 at 11:41:38

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Tony W, you really need to scroll down the page and read below where you submit your comments it clearly states:

Comments are posted to the page as soon as they are submitted and are not usually vetted or moderated until a report of abuse or unsuitable content is received. The site owners take no responsibility for comments posted by readers of the site until such time as such a report of concern is received. Comments are the sole responsibility of the poster.
Paul Thompson
50   Posted 13/06/2008 at 12:05:45

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We will NOT be on the banks of the Mersey (Kenwright spunked that one away) - The River Alt flows through Kirkby, northwards towards Maghull and Formby and enters the Irish Sea near Hightown
We’ll need to rewrite the song if we want to hang our big city neighbours
John Green
51   Posted 13/06/2008 at 12:22:18

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Look we either get off our arses and make ourselves heard and fucking protest till we are hoarse or accept it. We are dealing with the most succesful retail company in the UK, do you think that Terry Leahy does not have the ear of the politicians who decide what happens, look at Tesco Allerton Rd, they got their extension despite protest, look at St Helens RL - they got theirs despite protest from Morrisons.
If we dont want to go the only way is boycotting spending anything at the club and telling them why. If we dont buy replica shirts or catering etc. I know it hurts the club financially in the short term but we are talking about our next 100 years somewhere. I dont want my grandkids growin up with some shitty ground outside our boundaries

Time to stand up and be counted

For the record I never received my voting form last year - but had been wayed to vote yes, stupid ? Maybe, Naive ? Definitely - angry - bloody right

We are the frist club of the city of liverpool so why the fuck should we leave.

BK and KW should just see the RS pissing themselves to see that in no way should we ever leave this city
Lee Spargo
52   Posted 13/06/2008 at 12:34:01

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If this is what ensues after giving the fans a vote, then if Kirkby falls through and we eventually somehow find a new opition, then I hope the board makes the decision without a ballot.

crying shame this.
Johnny Briggs
53   Posted 13/06/2008 at 12:39:43

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Good post Tony,

What worries me most is that we have a fair few (major) problems off the pitch at the moment, namely: the aforementioned (IMO disastrous) Kirby move and our dire marketting. What if the football starts to match?

It may not be the top four that concerns us but the bottom 3!
Anthony Osullivan
54   Posted 13/06/2008 at 12:42:11

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You have convinced me Tony thank you you have outlined why a YES vote is so important.

If we move, you will stop going to the matches, then you ll shut up. Wont that be sweet.
Tony Marsh
55   Posted 13/06/2008 at 12:40:51

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Tony Waverleas I would love it just love it if BK or KW tried to take action in court against anyone who they thought had slandered them.Can you imagine Bill Or Kieth trying to prove to the world that they dont tell porkies where EFC is concerned.

What a fucking great laugh that would be.There would be queues a mile long to get in to the court house to listen and watch these two muppets squirm under oath. bring it on I say..Oh by the way you must be a right mug if you think these two clowns are not economical with the truth.
Chris Briddon
56   Posted 13/06/2008 at 12:42:00

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Gavin - you are obviously quite happy for people to be slagging off boar members and calling them liars. I am not.

And don’t try that guff about comments not being checked before they are posted.

for the past 2 weeks, every comment I have posted has come up with a message saying they are ’queued for moderation and will be removed if they are offensive or ’unworthy for inclusion’ they will be deleted.

Now I don’t post offensive comments or posts designed with the sole intention of winding people up, I disagree with people and argue the case, but no more than anybody else on here. So if they can do this to me, why do Tony Marsh et al get allowed to post whatever they want
Gavin Ramejkis
57   Posted 13/06/2008 at 12:53:38

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Chris B with all respect I am not an owner of the website and neither are you, maybe, just maybe your posts are being held for some reason you need to take up with the site owners, the cut and paste was from the bottom of this very screen and not fabricated. Why not contact the site direct, am sure you’ll find a contact email if you look. I’ve had posts held in the past and didn’t get all paranoid about it. Like I have said on plenty of occasions and again if you read "Just like the American Election" post you’ll see a healthy discussion going back and forth. Try asking the question of the website owners, you might just get the reply you are looking for before you make claims of "guff" etc.
Tony Waverleas
58   Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:03:06

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I’m only too familiar with the site’s disclaimer having had posts on a variety of subjects of my own removed on earlier occasions. Posts I may add I considered to be utterly innocous, but, hey-ho there you go.
Free speech is one thing but stating, for example, that Keith Wyness is lining his own pockets at the expense of the cherished traditions of our great club is in my opinion going too far.
Opinions and debate are fine; slander is another matter - as Rooney ,his ghost-writer and publishers would all tell you.
Phil Bellis
59   Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:11:51

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Bellis & Marsh v Kenwright and Briddon

’The King’’s Dock money is ring-fenced’
I rest my case, m’lud
Chris Briddon
60   Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:24:08

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Gavin, I wasn’t disputing the discalimer comment. I was disputing the fact that you implied the website couldn’t stop Tony posting potentially libelous statements.

Clearly they can if they want to, they just choose to let him post whatever he wants without checking it first!

I assume the reason they started checking mine was because I complained at one of the moderators for his condecending reply when somebody asked the whereabout of Alan Whittle - said poster indicated that basically he wasn’t interested and didn’t care, which I took offence at.

The point is that the moderators can stop people posting if they want, but in Tony’s case they don’t
Chris Briddon
61   Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:28:37

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That’s ok cos everything you and Tony have said is 100% accurate & factually proven I presume!
Tony Marsh
62   Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:21:46

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A few more quotes that leave a lot to be desired.>Wayne Rooney is going nowhere.>The Kings Dock is a done deal. We will deliver a world class stadium.
Phil Bellis
63   Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:30:45

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Cant speak for Tony but nothing I’ve said above is anything but the truth, the whole truth....
Damian Wilde
64   Posted 13/06/2008 at 12:57:27

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If people want to protest that is their choice. I honestly think there will probably be a few hundred (if that) missing from the game. Could anyone seriously see only 18 000 turning up for the first game? It will just not happen. As for not attending at all if we move, I am puzzled by that one. Personally, I prefer not to be bitter all of my life.

I think there have been some good points from both sides. But, can certain people from the yes and no camps stop making out the other lot are idiots or ’not proper fans’ and making out they are right, end of story. They’re the ones who are looking like ’idiots’ and vacuous ones at that.
Paul Lally
65   Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:38:56

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Posting on all TW stadium related threads -

Goodison gone - club shop moved -


Yes voters, you have had your ballot, which you keep quoting was fair and a mandate.

( I was entitled to 2 votes in my household and did not receive ballot papers).

Plus you have the EFC marketing machine on your side.So no problem then.

To EVERYONE who believes Kirkby is a very, very bad decision then please find email info.

Send to as many people as you can so that our voice is heard.

Below is the list of e-mails.
I have sent the template from KEIOC ( I simply opened up the template then copied and pasted into an email)

I could not find Andy Burnham?s email but his assistant is -

Gary Hughes
66   Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:03:46

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They told us there was no alternative, no plan B yet all the time (with the help of The Echo) they concealed the Sainsburys/Walton Hall Park option prior to the vote. When will you yes voters stop hiding behind your amateur business credentials & admit that youv’e been conned?
Anthony Fielding
67   Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:12:41

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I voted YES, and i did so after having a long hard think about things, it was not a decision i came to easily. The simple truth of the matter is we are skint, we dont have the money to re-develop Goodison to the required standard (even if it is possible), and we certainly dont have the money to build a ’world class’ stadium on our own. We need the help of a company like Tesco to help fund this, and the simple fact of the matter is that LCC would not let a project like the one on offer in Kirkby go ahead in the city for the same reasons as they objected the Kirkby plans in the first place. If the club wants a new stadium, and i dont think its actually about wanting one, more like needing one, then we can only afford to do it the Kirkby way with all its retail developments. Now all the facts from the club regarding costs and claiming its ’world class’ might have been bent a bit, ok a lot, but i think its a case of jumping from a sinking ship before we’re pushed. I think the consequences of staying at Goodison will be far greater than what they will be if we move to Kirkby.
Jay Harris
68   Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:17:43

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If the yes camp want to have a reasoned debate then can we please stop the fiction.

EVERTON FC have never asked for Stanley Park nor asked about redeveloping GP.


Now BK may not be the lying cheating incompetent guy some people think he is but he sure as hell does not get off his arse to do anything unless his position is threatened such as when the "Fortress Sports Fund " was "invented" to ward off Paul Greggs takeover bid.

Can anyone name any initiative that this guy has taken.

He even admitted that Tesco Terry approached him and proposed Kirkby.

The board have lived under the longest running "Exclusivity" period in history to blank every other approach or suggestion so Why the fuck would LCC continue to bang their heads against a brick wall.

Alienating LCC which is one of BK’s greatest achievements is now coming home to roost and when Kirkby goes tits up we’ll be in a weakened negotiating position
Rob Foy
69   Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:48:04

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"I know I won?t be able to stomach going to the Ethel Austin Arena to watch the Blues as it will be too painful. Knowing now what we do about the whole carry-on, going to the Carpet Right Arena would show a complete lack of moral fibre. It?s like going for a bevy with a guy who just nicked your wallet and I want no part of this con job."

Hit the nail on the head there mate.
Dave Wilson
70   Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:05:11

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Bryan Roberts

You couldn't possibly have ever been to Kirkby if you think its on the banks of the Royal Blue Mersey.
Trust me pal, you would not want to get dragged by the bollocks from Kirkby to the Mersey


Jus out of interest, how often would you actually go to Kirkby if The board get their wish?
Gerard Madden
71   Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:51:57

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I remain supremely confident it wont get called-in because the "ace cards" held by the applicants are that Kirkby is in dire need of regeneration with all its poverty and worklessness and the fact you find those Kirkby wards usually at or near the bottom of the economic league tables locally, regionally and nationally. The fact it is a Labour stronghold that has thumped it through by 20-1 and it will be a Labour Government deciding whether to back (or not!) one of its own deprived heartlands is another good thing. I remain supremely optimistic because Labour Knowsley council and the Labour Govt are well within their rights to conclude in their ongoing discussions that "economic and regeneration" considerations outweigh the aspects of "Planning and Town Centre" considerations the plans don't fully comply with.
Chris Briddon
72   Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:48:23

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You see now I have a problem.

On one hand I have Tony & Phil accusing BK & KW of lying.

On the other hand I have somebody suggesting that you write to people using the KEIOC template.

My problem here is that only once in that letter does it mention Everton FC and that only as the possible cause of problems in NW Liverpool.

So here are a group of people tryin gto get you to send a letter to the government voicing your concerns about retail development in Kirkby and its impact on the rest of the surrounding region.

Now correct me if I?m wrong here, but most anti-Kirkby people on here couldn?t care less about the bigger picture and are actually concerned about the future of Everton Football Club.
So that means that effectively means that everybody who uses the KEIOC template will be lying about their reasons for protesting in order to make a point.

Now you see my problem. It is a matter of conjecture as to if BK & KW lied (some say yes, some say no). But in the case of anybody who sends this letter, then you are doing precisely what you have accused the Everton board of.

I hope you are all very proud of yourselves.
Jay Harris
73   Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:51:35

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Yet another MYTH.


Alan Willo
74   Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:31:12

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Oh my God Tony, do you still think the world is flat?? That would explain a lot if the answer was yes. Kirkby is getting closer and you?re all getting angrier and hitting out at all that don?t agree with your narrow minded views. If you will not follow EFC to Kirkby then please stop going now!! We don?t need you, we have a waiting list for season tickets of 2000 according to the official site so you can be replaced. We would all rather you did continue and support the team we all love but your threat will only mean you lose out!!! All those years and emotions good and bad finished because you can?t get the bus 3.5 miles to watch EFC. We all travel all over the place to watch EFC why not 3.5 miles. Comparing EFC to Wimbledon confirms to me why the average Evertonian has not boycotted the game, held protest or even voiced decent at the game because your all so far gone that you have lost site with reality. All this emotion and anger should have been directed at LCC instead of the Board, they had the power to change the whole deal, but they chose to do nothing so the No campaign is purely based on personnel attacks, and that never goes down with the masses. The quicker it is built the better so we can all move on. COYB
Chris Briddon
75   Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:55:52

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Dave Wilson.

If we are being picky about song lyrics in relation to stadium locations. You could hardly describe Goodison as being on the ’banks of the Royal Blue Mersey’ either could you?
Andy Drake
76   Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:53:11

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Stripping away all the emotional aspects of the move (which is very hard given our history) it would seem that the 2 business reasons for moving would be

1. Will stadium/matchday revenue increase?
2. Will our supporter base grow in the future?

If this was just another business, I can’t help but feel the answers are PROBABLY NOT and NO. It seems likely that

1. The net effect of moving to a bland location in as retail park will not drive big net increases (corporates will not come, some traditionalists will not go).
2. The more significant issue is the long term impact it will have on the new generation of football fans in the city. In an age of instant gratification and connection to success, I fear surrendering the territory will lose a large number of future fans

There must be better alternatives even if that means further delays

Phil Bellis
77   Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:56:05

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People who tell lies are liars. What?s so difficult to understand about that?
I couldn?t give a monkey?s about Kirkby or its regeneration - I?m an Evertonian, I want what?s best for my club - I don?t have a ?2nd favourite? team and I wouldn?t watch England if they were playing in Sefton Park (one of our alleged 35 potential sites)
From what I recall of the KEIOC template, there was nothing about objecting because it was not right for EFC - so I won?t be using it.
Chris Briddon
78   Posted 13/06/2008 at 14:08:58

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In that case Phil you have my respect - although not my agreement).
The talk from KEIOC was that the best way to protest was via some reasoned arguement about retail, which was my point.
The fact that you will argue the case on the basis of Everton FC says a lot for you.

My point was that people accuse BK & KW of lying but are then prepared to lie themselves to get what they want
Brian Finnigan
79   Posted 13/06/2008 at 11:06:09

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Now and again, some yes voters reveal that the true reason that they are in favour of Kirkby is because the thought of continuing at Goodison, in the shadow of the opulent Stanley Park structure, would be too embarassing to bear. Far better to skulk away to Kirkby so that they are spared the shame of having to pass Tom Hicks Palace of Varieties before reaching our humble shack. This is snobbery of the worst kind......a bit like not wanting your mates to come to your house because you are ashamed of the material shortcomings of your home.

It is encouraging that less yes voters are appearing on this site as more and more revelations about the Kirkby deal are beginning to surface. Some still try to defend what is rapidly becoming the indefensible but with less conviction than they did in the early days after the vote. Sadly, those yes voters that remain seem unable/unwilling to admit that the fine detail of the deal, held back during the referendum, at the very least make some of their earlier hopes unlikely to be fulfilled.

Stadium quality appears to have been greatly reduced. Travel/parking issues have not been adequately addressed and this seriously threatens expected attendance figures. Lower than projected attendances, together with severe restrictions placed upon non-footballing use of the stadium, will inevitably reduce the promised revenue streams. Despite the obvious alterations to the original promised vision, few yes voters (if any) are willing (at least publicly) to acknowledge that the Club have been less than honest in their presentation of their case for a move to Kirkby.

I can understand how some supporters could have reluctantly been convinced by the promises made by the Club those many months ago. I was not one of them because what was being offered then, on a material level, seemed too good to be true. That, added to my belief that the Club should remain close to the City of Liverpool, convinced me to support the no vote. Many yes voters had to overcome their historical and emotional attachment to Goodison in order to cast their vote in the way that they did. They did so on the basis of a prospectus that can now be seen to have been at least flawed or worst downright dishonest.

It is now vital that those yes voters who are having serious second thoughts about project Kirkby add their voices of protest to those in the no camp. Together, we should make it our duty to petition against the move before it is beyond our powers of recovery. An overwhelming call to the Government to call in these proposals appears to be our only hope of saving the Club from making a dreadful mistake.
Jay Harris
80   Posted 13/06/2008 at 14:06:30

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Alan Willo,

The bus Journey would be OK except there are NO busses to catch.

Merseytravel have already stated that they cannot provide the busses required for matchdays.

But it doesnt matter because Tony and a large number of other blues will not be going so the crowd of 32200 (according to KMBC restrictions)will be able to enjoy their FAR MORE EXPENSIVE matchday.
EJ Ruane
81   Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:41:07

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Damian you ask...

"Could anyone seriously see only 18 000 turning up for the first game?"


Definite NO!

Not at all?

In fact, for the first game I reckon it’ll be banged out - a sell out.

Loads of freebie tickets, flags, adverts, deals, not an empty seat in the place -50,000.

Two seasons down the line though?

Well, I still can’t see it being as low as 18,000.

But I can (genuinely) see things settling around 28,000 - 34,000

28,000 - 34, a 50000 seater Reebok style stadiu... in Kirkby.

I think it IS a distinct possibility (and I believe anyone who denies it’s a possibility is - sorry - full of shite).

You HONESTLY believe it’s worth the gamble?

By the way, you also say..

"Personally, I prefer not to be bitter all of my life"

Well that’s an admirable sentiment, but to be honest, I don’t think you would find ANYONE who would say "I’d LOVE to be bitter all my life!".

However it’s worth considering the war veteran, who ducks on hearing a car backfire - he doesn’t WANT to duck, but his past experience shapes his present (and future) behaviour.

Remember NOBODY is born bitter and my guess is nobody chooses to be bitter.

But, like greatness, I reckon it’s something some have thrust upon this case by a very, very badly run football club.

Anthony Fielding
82   Posted 13/06/2008 at 14:31:07

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Jay .....

.... whats the myth???
Everton are skint - Fact
Goodison is crap -Fact
We need a new stadium -Fact
Tesco are contribution £50m in some way - Fact

Matt Willey
83   Posted 13/06/2008 at 14:25:00

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Gerrard Madden writes;

’I remain supremely confident it wont get called-in because the "ace cards" held by the applicants are that Kirkby is in dire need of regeneration with all its poverty and worklessness and the fact you find those Kirkby wards usually at or near the bottom of the economic league tables locally, regionally and nationally.’

Gerrard you may well be correct, the project may not get ’called in’ ...


Your arguments are increasingly irrational and illogical .. the axioms you have formed are incomprehensible ... you can’t be taken seriously mate !
Bob Fletcher
84   Posted 13/06/2008 at 14:15:36

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Jay Harris have a look at Merseytravel’s website and see the numerous buses that go to Kirkby. What’s more, they all go via Kirkby Town Centre at a frequency of about every 10 minutes. Also there is a Merseyrail station about 5 minutes away.
Jay Harris
85   Posted 13/06/2008 at 15:00:00

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and how many people does a bus hold?
John Lloyd
86   Posted 13/06/2008 at 15:12:48

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All yes voters are wrong, sheeps & have succesfully been arsed by the men behind this move.....

No irony, no jokes. thats how I feel. So What!!! I?ve just read a post about future cup parades going through Liverpool then ending up at Kirkby???? You mad gets!!!

Liverpool fans are pissing themselves at this, that has got to be an indicator (no more) of how bad an idea this has got to be.

And any Yes voters, don't waste your time replying to me, in fact ignore me cos as Evertonians I love ya like a like a brother, just concerning this ground move I wished my brothers weren?t thick as fuck.

You can shove your retail park stadiums, Cherryfield Drive & Destination Kirkby up your arses.
Angus Dundee
87   Posted 13/06/2008 at 15:04:39

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Is this the same Tony Marsh who slags Everton off at evey opportunity...and you idiots listen to him!

I?m not sure why those who voted No are up in arms about a done deal and anyway aren?t they not going to follow Everton there. Surely their opinion doesn?t count one iota because they?re going to stay in Walton/County Road moaning in the pubs in their own little world about those shithead Yes-voting thousand upon thousands of Evertonians who will be going to the game... including the No voters who actually support the club not where we play.

Seems to me there ain?t an argument here... the club want the move, they gave a chance to say No, and they have not had a single worthwhile contribution from LCC, and we don?t have any money to rebuild... simple really isn?t it.

I?m just glad we never moved to Speke!

Jim Hourigan
88   Posted 13/06/2008 at 15:13:41

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Brian, perhaps there are fewer Yes voters commenting on the web site because they see little point in perpetuating an argument that has such entrenched views on both sides. It would seem there is little to be gained by commenting either way and I for one one have given up commenting because everything has been said from both perspectives and absolutely nothing new now appears.

Oops I?m commenting - bad habit!
Jay Harris
89   Posted 13/06/2008 at 15:04:01

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please do not be so deluded.

Tesco have stated THEY WILL NOT be making ANY financial contribution to EFC.

The Contaminated land that EFC will pay millions to Decontaminate (EFC"s own advisor confirmed this)that?s currently worthless EFC have to pay to lease it

The £50 million was calculated by assuming that using Barr construction (Tesco?s design and build contractors) that EFC would be able to get Tesco prices and therefore gain financially and that Tesco would forego their "normal" developer?s fee of £15 million.

But a blind man can see that?s total bullshit.
Terry Holland
90   Posted 13/06/2008 at 15:58:10

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Jay Harris

Do you have any concrete evidence that says this is not the case. Cause if you dont you have just proved yourself wrong.

The £50 million was calculated by assuming that using Barr construction (Tesco?s design and build contractors) that EFC would be able to get Tesco prices and therefore gain financially and that Tesco would forego their "normal" developer?s fee of £15 million.

So Tesco will help Everton Fund it then.
Mike Byrne
91   Posted 13/06/2008 at 15:30:07

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Bob Fletcher

A bus containing say 60 people every 10 mins and a train containing say 300 every 20 mins - by my reckoning thats 1260 people every hour being able to get away from Kirkby on public transport.

With no parking allowed within three miles and a park and walk policy not many people will be driving there so tell me what your thoughts will be on a Sunday afternoon after a 3pm Sat kick-off when you are still waiting for your bus? The transport plan (and I use the term loosely)coudl well result inat scenario - just shows how much the club thinks about it’s bread and butter fans.

It is an absloute fucking joke from start to finish this whole project - based on lies and bull-shit on every aspect and yet people are still defending it. Unbelievable absolutely un-fucking believable

Ray Roche
92   Posted 13/06/2008 at 16:08:27

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Anthony Fielding
".... whats the myth???
Everton are skint - Fact
Goodison is crap -Fact
We need a new stadium -Fact
Tesco are contribution £50m in some way - Fact"

If Everton are skint,fact, where are we going to get the £80m+ that we’ll need for Kirkby?
I would sooner see that £80m used to regenerate Goodison.
And keep some dignity without scuttling off to Knowsley to dance to Tescos tune.
Gary Hughes
93   Posted 13/06/2008 at 17:22:16

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I would like to point something out to the yes voters who refuse to aknowlege certain truths about this whole Kirkby fiasco. Bill Kenwright owns Everton. As long as he remains in control the only option is Kirkby. If he was to sell up the new owners could investigate other options. Kenwright has stated that he would step aside if the right offer came along. He claims to be looking for potential buyers/investors ?24/7? At the same time he is contractually bound by the terms of the exclusivity agreement with Tesco NOT to change the current board. And so we are stuck in a vicious circle. The root of the problem is Kenwright.

The solution is simple, Kenwright must sell as soon as this exclusivity period expires. In an era when foreign investors are queuing up to get there hands on Premier League clubs apparantly not one will consider buying a club of our stature or could it be that maybe Bill just says ?not for sale?.

I mean let's be honest the second he got into bed with Tesco he couldn?t sell even if he wanted to. When Kenwright & Wyness have long gone we could be stuck in the backwater of Kirkby. It would be wiser to sit it out even if the right investor doesn?t come along for another five years. Five years will seem like five seconds compared to an eternity in Kirkby.

Ste Kinder
94   Posted 13/06/2008 at 17:42:33

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Agree with you 100% Tony, sooner we get these two out the better. Let's get Goodison regenerated, and get the name Everton marketed better.
Anthony Fielding
95   Posted 13/06/2008 at 18:02:09

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the money for Kirkby is supposed to be coming from sale of Goodison (which we wouldnt get if we stayed there), naming rights to the new stadium (we couldnt do that now because of the uproar), sale of bellefield. The rest secured against future season ticket sales. Its a catch 22 situation, we only generate most of the cash from releasing our assets at Goodison
Brian Waring
96   Posted 13/06/2008 at 18:49:30

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I’ll tell you something, it’s going to a be a bit weird singing this.
"On the banks of the royal blue river Alt" If there is a god, this shambles will be called in by the government, and then kicked to the kerbside, because that is where it belongs, along with that slimy prick KW.
Andy Crooks
97   Posted 13/06/2008 at 19:04:06

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Angus ,it’s pretty sad and in many ways illuminating that you feel that the views of those who voted no to Kirby don’t count for "one iota".
Bob Turner
98   Posted 13/06/2008 at 19:10:30

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We are only going to Kirkby because KW gets a huge bonus for going there.

Said bonus is being funded by BK, whose sole interest is also to line his pockets.

BK has a cheaper, less risky and more profitable alternative staring him in the face, namely redevelopment of GP.

BK will make more money from said redevelopment of GP than he would from moving to Kirkby (and will not have to pay KW a big bonus!)

BK is therefore choosing the more expensive, more risky and less profitable option because....

Answers on a postcard, please....
Gavin Ramejkis
99   Posted 13/06/2008 at 20:05:07

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Bob beyonds the realms of even the fantasist:

KW has tried this before with Aberdeen, using the same lies; decrepit stadium falling down, need to move to retail park - Aberdeen beat Rangers to give Celtic the title on the last day of the SPL, hasn’t KW been at Everton since 2004? How come Pittodrie hasn’t fallen down or been closed down?

KW is also running a stadium development company whilst on the payroll and clock of Everton FC and lo and behold Everton get into bed with a new stadium development - conflict of interest, if KW is running this business as independent of Everton FC what are the chances that he is receiving bonuses from KMBC and Tesco as the intermediary between the three parties as an independent company; finders fees, completion bonuses, signing on bonuses etc?

The same KW failed to market the Sydney Olympics beyond a single client who he had to pay an out of court settlement to and had an acrimonious departure from Australia that is bullshittingly referred to on his precis on the official website as "the lure of a return home to Aberdeen was too strong".

KW’s failures are all in the public domain for anyone with the smallest amount of ability to find in black and white.

BK went missing during the whole vote and has a list as long as your arm of documented lies during his reign as "true blue Bill"
Bob Turner
100   Posted 13/06/2008 at 20:41:51

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Spoken like a true politican - you gave a very detailed response.....

Just not to my question, unfortunately....
Connor Rohrer
101   Posted 13/06/2008 at 21:40:06

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Spot on. Agree with everything written word for word.
Gavin Ramejkis
102   Posted 13/06/2008 at 22:06:31

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Bob you have just given me a great idea, try as a candidate for office, make even more money than I do as a consultant, cheers mate. Ignoring the pedantic first line though I felt the need to point out glaring character traits of the two key men in this whole debacle that people like yourself continue to follow without question, now that’s your choice but equally a sermon on their virtues is too hard to swallow. Who is to know, myself included, what BK’s game is but it’s far from the best for this football club, what was his game with the numerous non existent Russian billionaires including one just the other week? Smoke and mirrors and the government favourite of deflecting incoming bad news maybe?
Bob Turner
103   Posted 13/06/2008 at 22:43:26

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I don’t recall giving a sermon extolling their virtues, but I cannot think of a logical reason why BK, if his sole aim was to make more money out of Everton, would choose an option which apparently is more expensive, more risky and less profitable?

Given the glaring character trait of greed and deceit which seems to be the main assumption, I just really cannot see why this would be his choice if it’s more expensive, more risky and less profitable.

I know I’m labouring the point, but I just can’t see how that works.
Jay Harris
104   Posted 13/06/2008 at 16:17:04

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Terry Holland
thats the equivalent of Redrow telling you your house would normally be 125000 but they’ll let you have it at the market value of 100,000 and therefore are giving you 25,000.

In other words dont be so fucking stupid.
Danny O'Neill
105   Posted 13/06/2008 at 22:49:28

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Another one who doesn?t always agree with you but you do hit the nail. The whole Kirkby thing is turning into an embarrassing farce and the club seems intent on going against the wishes of the masses. Even those who voted yes now have serious doubts because the reality simply doesn?t reflect what was proposed at the time of the ballot.

Just two things (I always have to disagree with you on something!!):

a. I don?t think BK means bad - he genuinely is a blue and wants best for the club. I just think he doesn?t have another option available to him. We can?t stay at Goodison and nothing else appears available within his ability. Despite the limitations, I actually like having someone like BK in the chair rather than an unpredicatable foreign or business "knee-jerk" type owner (LFC, Man City, Newcastle style).

b. Can?t we just extend the city boundaries?!!! Kirkby and its residents are as scouse as the Mersey mud anyway. I know we have political boundaries, but lets be honest, places like Huyton, Kirkby, Bootle and Halewood are all considered Liverpool even if their Council Tax bills don?t reflect that.

To say we?ve lost the city is a strong statement. The fact that Man Utd have technically never resided in the City of Manchester has never effected their association with their "home" city despite what Shitee fans say.
Jay Harris
106   Posted 13/06/2008 at 23:17:50

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Anthony, Oh Anthony... when will you listen?

Goodison is mortgaged to at least but probably more than its current value so no money there then.

Bellefield has just been flatly denied PP so is pretty valueless and the so called naming rights have been estimated to be worth no more than £2.5 million a year for 7 to 10 years.

In other words we will take on an interest bill of about £10 million a year and generate £2.5 million plus whatever other income a stadium with a few millstones around its neck can and if we?re lucky beyond even the most optimistic financial analyst?s expectations we will break even.

Hardly a reason to build a cowshed on contaminated land in a tiny backwater hamlet is it?
Jay Harris
107   Posted 13/06/2008 at 23:29:20

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Danny and others


It has already been demonstrated that the board were talking total bullshit when they said GP could not be redeveloped.

Just look at the article on the front page of Toffeeweb and then come back here and tell us GP can't be developed.
Jim Hourigan
108   Posted 14/06/2008 at 00:00:29

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Jay, have you actually been to any of the modern football stadiums for anything other than a footie match? Does your job involve going to conferences, meetings, training or the like where they use conference facilities at these grounds? If you or any of the other posters on the debate have not used a ground for a conference or similar then there is a massive corporate dimension that you fail to understand or appreciate.

I have been to Bolton, Old Trafford, Man City and even Blackburn for a variety of reasons and they all have one thing in common - charging a lot of money to attend. At a recent conference I attended at OT the delegate rate was £395 per person for the day, there were between 120 and 150 people present in one conference room and to the best of my knowledge 3 other conferences were taking place around the ground at the same time. I turned up, parked my car with all the other sad souls, attended the meeting and then drove home. It did not make the slightest difference to me or anybody else that OT was not in the city centre -we attended and then left. In terms of organisation they needed good facilities, good av systems, a clean environment and decent accessible parking alongside the ground.

When people talk of corporate facilities all that is mentioned are the boxes at match days. I believe that most clubs with modern stadiums see corporate use as something way beyond the 20+ match days, and look to generate income from the types of things I mention. Arsenal charged £500 for a similar event so think how much they generate !!!

I?m not pointing these things out to advance Kirkby but rather to point out the futility of the ?redevelop GP argument?. The footprint may or may not provide a 55,000 seater stadium (I genuinely don?t) but the rest will not provide the type of facility that clubs like Bolton, Man U, City and others benefit from. If you want to rebuild GP as a football ground without the extensive corporate facilities needed for life in the present business world then accept that we will never generate the income to live with even the average teams (MU excepted), and we all know where no money long term leads to.
Jay Harris
109   Posted 14/06/2008 at 03:06:14

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I know you probably didnt mean to sound condescending but I should point out that I have had a lifetime of corporate facilities including being a regular guest of one of the director’s of Manchester United and ranging from Spurs to Barcelona including being flown by private jet with the Norwich City board of directors to the Anfield boardroom so please dont mistake me for someone who doesnt know what corporate facilities are about.
The proposals for GP redevelopment contain just as many corporate facilities as Kirkby if not more and they are not compromised by having to give them FREE to KMBC for a third of the year not that I think the corporate facilities at Kirkby will be used that much anyway.
The business people I know want somewhere within touching distance of the City and I know from talking to quite a few of them they do not want to take guests to Kirkby.

Apart from that I think too many people are hung up on the "extra " income that will come from corporate.

Our major gap is commercial income.
For example Spurs with a capacity of only 36000 get 40 million from marketing and merchandising.
EFC get 3 million.
Doesnt that tell you where we should be concentrating not chasing some pigsty in Kirkby.
Jim Hourigan
110   Posted 14/06/2008 at 10:00:35

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Jay I was not trying to be condescending so apologies, however you still miss my point completely - I?m not talking about match days and match day corporate facilities, I?m on about the other 300+ days when a football stadium is not being used. At many of these times the facilities at the clubs I mentioned are generating substantial income and the position of the stadium is secondary to what it offers - good conference / hospitality capabilities, on-site parking and open inviting environments. I?m sorry GP possesses none of those and could never with its present or I suggest future footprint. If all people want is a football ground and nothing else then I?m sorry its back to head in the sand because the future demands use beyond football to survive.
Anthony Fielding
111   Posted 14/06/2008 at 10:26:35

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... any mortgage on Goodison is included in the clubs debts, which will be transferable to any new ground (the debt that is), if we sell Goodison for £Xm when moving grounds then that money is paid off the clubs debt, which would work out the same as not paying off our original debt but instead paying it towards the new stadium, ie it is £Xm off the clubs debt or off the new stadium - same difference. As for Bellefield, it may have been refused now, but it will eventually get the required planning permision, and naming rights - £2.5m over 10 years = £25m?!?!
Jay Harris
112   Posted 14/06/2008 at 12:40:42

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IF we get £15 million for GP and the mortgage is £15 million then that has to be paid off but we still have to borrow at least £78 million for Kirkby so there?s no gain.

There is very little chance of EFC getting PP if the planning committee is so opposed to it and even if they did it would be significantly scaled down from what they propose and therefore worth a lot less.

The naming rights are not paid up front and therefore we would have to borrow that £25 million as part of the £78 million costing about £10 million year interest less the £2.5 million naming rights(only for 7 to 10 years).

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