ToffeeWeb - Season 2007-08

The Mail Bag

Stadium Ownership

Before you are flooded with irate supporters, this is a standard leasehold purchase. The majority of properties in the UK/Ireland are of this type. Everton of course have the option of purchasing the leasehold to make the property freehold (usually 2% of the valuation), but it's an unnecessary expense as it makes little economic sense. We own the property either way.

Leasehold is usually 999 years though on a new purchase, so not sure about the 199 years, but the club will still own the stadium, no lease payments are due. This is merely a technical term used in purchase contracts and nothing to get worried about. The leasehold is merely extended as it comes to an end, usually for the same time length.
John Middleton, Dublin, Ireland Posted 18/07/2007 at 15:16:56

back Return to the Mail Bag

Comments

Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer

Michael Kenrick

Thanks for that clarification, John

Roy Coyne
1 Posted 18/07/2007 at 15:25:26

Well I think Mr Wyness has excelled himself. The future of Everton is we wont own our training ground, our shop has gone, what's left? Ah the ground? Nope that's gone as well we are one of the founder members of football and we don't own our own ground what an insult. Kenwright please go and take that fat Scottish parasite with you to say you are a Evertonian is a joke you would not take the Kings Dock on a mortgage yet are willing to be come tenants in Kirkby for once Words fail me.

Ann Adlington
2 Posted 18/07/2007 at 17:26:51

Long leaseholds usually have a ground rent. What will EFC’s be? I’ve never heard of a 199 year lease. There again, Tesco have moved quickly to deny KW’s claim that they will be giving EFC £50 million. Where is the money to build the stadium going to come from?

Colin Potter
3 Posted 18/07/2007 at 17:32:08

You are 100% right Roy

Richard Barnett
4 Posted 18/07/2007 at 15:59:15

As a point of information your comment that a 199 year lease 'does not give ownership', I have not seen the terms of any form of lease, but it would not be unusual for a part of a global development to be devolved by way of a long lease. What would be pertinent would be whether any reserved rent was of a nominal nature, and the nature of any covenants contained. I'd be happy to comment further if a more detailed analysis were forthcoming.

[Yea, my error; fixed now ? Ed]

Paul Smith
5 Posted 18/07/2007 at 16:37:18

It concerns me that we will not actually own our ground even if it is secure for 199 years.

Although it will not happen in our, or even our childrens childrens lifetime but there could be a time when we end up in the situation that Brighton are in. That is having to rent a two bob arena that has a 7000 capacity while we fight local government tooth and nail to get permission to build a new stadium. All the time knowing that the money being spent on court cases is not being spent on players and that the next knock back could be the end of the club.

We should not even consider this as an option, we must own or majority own the stadium. Saying that a 199-year lease gives the clubs custodians time to find another site in not good enough, it is almost a childly thing to say - I wont be around so it doesn't matter, they will (have to) sort it out??

I was actually on the fence with regards to the ground move maybe leaning towards going but now, I think it should be a resounding NO. I live on the south coast and have seen what has happened to Brighton, the worst thing they ever did was sell their ground; the Goldstone (a decision that was taken by the chairman without consulting fans!).

For this eventuality to be possibile it totally unacceptable, back to the drawing board I'm afraid.

[Sorry, that was my error: EFC will "own" the stadium on a 199-year lease, and will NOT be paying any rent ? Ed]

Daniel Barton
6 Posted 18/07/2007 at 18:31:19

The other point worth knowing in relation to leasehold properties is that you are entitled under current law to either purchase the freehold (but as someone else commented, this would not make economic sense as a 199 year lease is virtually the equivalent to owning the freehold anyway) or extend the lease for a payment (this is a complex calculation but is regulated by surveyors). As long as the lease doesn’t run to low, there should never be a problem in terms of having full control over the land on the stadium, as the club can always extent the lease.

John Aldridge
7 Posted 18/07/2007 at 18:33:38

Well there are so many dissenters here saying we should never accept this as we will not own our own ground.

Hate to say it, but a club in our financial position doesn’t really have many options. If we turn this down, what are we going to do about a new stadium? Magic £150M out of thin air? Go £150M further into debt? Let’s face it, Goodison is falling apart (and costing the club a lot in loss of income from corporate hospitality).

So what if we won’t own the new ground. Who cares? We’ll have....erm...199 years to either buy the ’New Goodison’ or to move onto another new home. Move on and move up. It gets my vote any day.

michael mcdonald
8 Posted 18/07/2007 at 19:31:42

L4 or L32 all part of liverpool, we will be away from our horrible neighbours and its costing us a mere 10 million, no brainer if you ask me.

David OBrien
9 Posted 18/07/2007 at 19:58:04

I think the lease is 199 year term it is because it is a commercial lease, if it was residential it would probably be 99 years, so not too bad really.

Steve Williams
10 Posted 18/07/2007 at 20:16:46

Leasehold is not the same as lease. A lease is used in tenancy terms when you don’t own the property. Leasehold is about owning the property with the land supplied on leasehold terms and a ground rent is paid which is nominal to the value of the property which as others mention the freehold can be purchased for a certain fee plus legal costs at any time as well as the leasehold being extendable.

Just to clarify this further Manchester City don’t own the City of Manchester stadium. They occupy the stadium on a standard renewable lease on a rental basis and also pay an additional rent when attendances exceed a certain amount. Manchester City can be kicked out of that Stadium if the Council feel it is right to do so.

Under the proposed Stadium plans, we won’t have such concerns. We own the stadium, the land is leasehold and we pay the ground rent each year. Leaseholds are always designed to outlast the life of anything built on the land. a standard lease on the other hand can be as little as 1 year, but normally reserved for private dwellings. The ownership should therefore not be in doubt, it just leaves all the other issues being debated to become clearer now.

David O'Brien
11 Posted 18/07/2007 at 20:53:38

Furthermore, a leasehold becomes a leaseleasehold if a commercial leases? terms have been breached. If not the leaseleashold simply becomes a ?blind? leasehold with an indefinite commercial agreement. This however would only become binding if the original terms stated that no other leasehold leaseholder became a commercial ?blind? leaseholder, thus the caveat that was originally broken becomes a ?non? caveat. Are we all clear now?

David O'Brien
12 Posted 18/07/2007 at 21:58:24

Sir,
I disagree with your ?blind? caveat statement! Surely a Leaseleaseholder is the Commercial Ground rentholder, thus ending your ridiculous argument!

Phil Jones
13 Posted 18/07/2007 at 23:49:15

I don’t understand what all the fuss is about so what we have a lease for 199 years. We need to move away from Goodison its a shit hole with no revenue capabilites i.e look for the hospitality suites around the ground (There is about 3). I understand people who are attached to Goodison due to many years watching the mighty blues but its a scuffy 80’s ground. I love the atmosphere but i think it could be recreated at the new stadium. I think this is our chance to get more revenue through the corporate side with more boxes which will in turn generate funds for more players hence a better team. It all makes sense! I’m no snob but walking to Goodison passed all the dog shit and rubbish everywhere I think i’d look else where before investing in everton football club. Anyway as you can guess i’m all upfor the move!

James Prendergast
14 Posted 19/07/2007 at 03:57:27

Phil - You’ll be disappointed to discover that they have dogshit and rubbish on the streets of Kirkby too !

Steve Mc
15 Posted 19/07/2007 at 10:49:46

FFS, leasehold, leaseleashold, blind fucking leasehold? Do we own the bleeding thing outright, do we have to pay rent, how much if we do, are there any other ’payments’ due to be made ongoing to KMB?

Keep it simple boys

john middleton
16 Posted 19/07/2007 at 11:20:57

Steve, we own it outright. There is no rent to pay. We have to pay an annual fee to the council called "ground rent". It is a nominal figure, eg usually around £22 per year for a 3 bed semi.

Brian Waing
17 Posted 19/07/2007 at 11:22:41

Steve Mc,well said mate.Why can’t the club just come out and tell us in plain english what the fuck the new stadium involves?

David OBrien
18 Posted 19/07/2007 at 12:46:00

I was actually joking about the leaseleasehold, there is no such thing. Although I do understand that this type of lease involves a caveat enabling Blindbill to purchase the freehold and then renting it back to EFC. He can also sell it at anytime after he has obtained the ground.

Gavin Ramejkis
19 Posted 20/07/2007 at 00:45:10

If the club hasn’t got a pot to piss in and the ground is only going to cost £75m, where the fuck is that coming from, one of Buster’s bulging pockets? It stinks of pure 24 carat Billy Bullshit.

mark crabtree
20 Posted 20/07/2007 at 12:37:16

come on kenright your an evertonian, so therefore keep the ground in liverpool.... i say try again for the kingsdock development seems like a good idea an so what if we have a mortgage id rather have a debt on a mortgage that not even own the ground... sort it out before you start losing fans cant they cant b arsed travelling to kirkby week in week out...Once a blue always a blue