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The BBC website reports that Liverpool City Council leader, Warren Bradley, has come up with four sites within the Liverpool boundary that our great club can move to. Two of the proposed sites are in the Liver Industrial Estate in Walton. Another is on land near Scotland Road. A fourth is on the Axis site in Speke and a fifth option is a redevelopment of the Goodison Park site. Why have you not highlighted this? This is great news.
The "choice", Kirkby or nothing, is an insult to all intelligent fans. With state-of-the-art graphics, the new ground in Kirkby will appeal to most ? especially when we are being told that in a few years time Goodison will not even get a safety certificate. Conscious and subliminal messages or what?
This all adds up to us, the true blues, being asked to vote for a move or no future. Look beyond the headlines and the diatribe. The new stadium will cost £150M, Tesco will give £50M, £10M will be from us... that leaves a £90M gap. Hmmmm. I ask this website, as a democratic, fair and independent entity, to let Warren Bradley have a say. Use this forum to give us more than a modern day "Hobson's Choice". Keith Piper,
Liverpool Posted 20/07/2007 at 22:33:52
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Lyndon
Keith, we agree that it's great news which is why we've had the story up all evening. :)
Brian Waring 1Posted 20/07/2007 at 23:08:31
Totally agree Keith.I actually look upon this statement as a piece of good news.As well as the sites,he also says there are comercial partners intrested.The problem is Kenwright.I genuinely don’t think he is intrested in looking at any other options.In his mind it,s Kirkby or nothing. It can’t do any harm to look at what they are proposing.If he refuses to look into what the council have,all the pro-Kirby group must surley then start to have doubts about his motives.
tom lynch 2Posted 20/07/2007 at 23:23:49
How do michael etc. fel how the vote will go?
Tom Hughes 3Posted 20/07/2007 at 23:51:50
Great post. Thank christ....... common sense might one day prevail on this issue! There are options galore for this club, and increasingly so!! Kirkby ticks NO boxes, even and especially the supposed freeby!!! What have the pro-kirkby posters been saying: smell the coffee? Smell the conman with the brown envelope it should be!
In fairness, Wyness via Leahy has packaged a decent project reasonably well. But, I urge all blues to look beyond the glossy images, you wont have to delve too far!
John Charles 4Posted 21/07/2007 at 00:02:06
Do you guys not think its hocus pocus from LCC??
Its fine saying "build on that site", but there needs to be a financial plan for it. ’Interested’ partners is not the same as having a deal on the table. We need a deal on the table from LCC with a named site, a named investor/partner and the figures to back it up.
Back it up. Why no detail if it is so easy to get another site in Liverpool? facts and figures please or to me it doesnt exist.
and if it just ’kenwright’ making it not happen then again, let LCC and said partner show us facts and figures. If they show us how this works in Liverpool then I for one would vote no - but until they do I’ll assume they have nothing.
LCC - not nearly good enough. a day late and a dollar short.
Tom Hughes 5Posted 21/07/2007 at 00:10:06
John charles: yet you’re prepared to accept the Tesco option despite a massive shortfall? Where are the figures there?
Barry 6Posted 21/07/2007 at 00:13:32
Sorry to piss on yer chips lads but there is no shortfall. I think there is some confusion over the £150m figure being used to evaluate the stadium costs.
The figure is £50m for the land which Knowsley are donating. £50m which Tesco are ’paying’ for the land but which Knowsley are going to give toward the cost of construction. This £50m construction money is then actually going to get us £75m worth of work because Tesco’s builders ae doing the work at cost. This gives a total project cost of £125m and then Everton have to fit the stadium out which might cost up to £25m which they will raise through the sale of Goodison Park £15m and the sale of naming rights £10m and maybe a small amount of debt.
If the whole package didn’t involve our club moving to Kirkby you would have to take your hat off to them for coming up with such a good business deal.
As far as LCC go Bradley is just making noises to try and cover his fat arse. He has already stated only days ago that he would not give us a piece of land despite the fact that they have just given Liverpool a piece. There may well be sites available but unless LCC are prepared to make us the same offer as Knowsley they may as well offer us land on the moon ’cos without that land being donated free the whole deal just doen’t stack up.
So come on Bradley lets hear which pieces of land you are ready to GIVE to Everton/Tesco to make it feasible for us to stay in Liverpool. It really is that simple if you really want us to stay.
Nick Harrison 7Posted 21/07/2007 at 04:50:46
It’s not even as simple as that. We’d need a partner and Tesco don’t seem interested in Liverpool city so we’d have a nice plot of land, that’s even IF they donated any, and then we’d probably take 50 years to build the stadium as we budget £2m a year for its construction out of our ’massive’ transfer kitty. I’m being sarcastic on several counts.
David Barks 8Posted 21/07/2007 at 08:39:38
It really is amazing, the Liverpool city council has had years, YEARS, to propose sites for our club to move to, but only now that another council and sponsor has come in are they saying they have a site. They are not making any serious proposals, no money offers, just saying that there are four options without any details as to the finances. Like it or not, Tesco and Knowsley council are sponsoring our move to Kirkby, which means we will save a shit load of money for a brand new stadium. But one councilor who has sat on his ass for years now says that he has sites that could work and you jump to him as our savior, even though he does not offer any actual solutions other than PR talk, which is exactly what he is doing. When he offers up the 50 Million that Knowsley is offering then we can talk, but until then, he is just talking bullshit.
The exclusivity period means that they could not discuss a proposal with Everton, but that does not stop them from disclosing real stadium proposals with the fans, including any financial assistance. But he has already admitted that they are not willing to offer the money to Everton for their stadium, which Knowsley is willing to offer. But he has not given any financial details, none, only four potential sites with no details whatsoever. If Kenwright came out with that type of statement you would be all over him for not giving any details and being secretive, must be hiding something, only interested in his pocket book. But this guy says it and you act as if he is a hero. If he did give us real answers that would provide a stadium inside the city I would be all for it, but that sadly is not the truth. Like it or not, the only ones providing real information are the club and Kirkby, whether you choose to believe them is up to you. Right now, the only real option being presented is the Kirkby deal, being funded by Tesco, 50 Million by Knowsley, money from naming rights, and then a loan by us to cover the rest.
Barry 9Posted 21/07/2007 at 08:50:27
Nick, I am sue I read only two weeks ago Wyness saying all it would need is a piece of land in the city with planning permissions for a retail park (presumably big enough for a 500,000 sq ft shopping centre like the one planned for Knowsley) and a stadium. I dont think it is exclusive to Knowsley because it is not just a Tesco store we are talking about it is a retail park half the size of the trafford centre.
I personnally wonder if the city are protecting the interests of the Grosvenor development by refusing to co operate as such a development would surely offer stiff competition to its success.
Neil Pearse 10Posted 21/07/2007 at 09:59:45
Anyone who believe the LCC at this point must be naive in the extreme.
Nobody think that their real aim here (they are politicians after all!) is to make sure that they don’t risk the ire of the thousands of Evertonians in the city? Or perhaps they’ve just been waiting to tell us about these wonderful commercially-funded sites until now because it so far somehow slipped their minds?
This is not good news, it is not even news. It is fluff and spin. They have sat on their hands with respect to Everton FC for years, at the same time doing all they can to support our neighbours. Now at the 11th hour they come up with some completely speculative, completely financially unsupported ’options’. And do you think they would even have come up with this pitiful offering if Everton didn’t now have a fully specified, costed and financed stadium ready to be built in Knowsley (perhaps you also believe in Father Christmas and the Tooth Fairy)?
The right response to the LCC now is: come up with something equivalent to what we now already have in Kirkby. Something with massive financial support which isn’t going to put our club into debt for years. Otherwise for fuck’s sake shut up and go back to sleep.
Brian Waring 11Posted 21/07/2007 at 09:57:27
David,I don’t look at Bradley as some hero or saviour.Maybe the council have seen sense and thought they couldn’t let it happen without a fight.All I’m asking of Kenwright and Wyness is to get togethor with the council and see what is available,what harm could it do?If it could happen and we get a stadium in the city,surely you would be happy with that,instead of moving to Kirkby?And David, how could they discuss stadium proposals with the fans,before talking with the club?Surely the way to do business is to discuss with the clients first then you release a statement to the public.One more thing.The reason I believe Bradley,is that he made the statement as soon as the exclusivity period had ended,so he respected the agreement everton had with the other parties and didn’t rock the boat.As I said, he is no hero to me,but then again,neither is Kenwright.
Neil Pearse 12Posted 21/07/2007 at 10:21:05
For Christ’s sake, can we all stop getting so excited about various sites here there and everywhere around the city. They are irrelevant.
Wyness correctly has make it very clear what is good for Everton about the Kirkby proposal: THE MONEY. Someone else (Knowsley, Tesco) in effect pays to build a stadium for us.
When the LCC says it is putting up £50 million to build a stadium for Everton, and has found another investor to put up the same amount - then we can have an interesting conversation about sites.
Until then we actually do not have any other choice but to go to Kirkby. Because we don’t have the money to do anything else. It really is that simple.
Barry 13Posted 21/07/2007 at 10:25:41
Brian the only reason Bradley is coming out with all this talk now is to muddy the waters ahead of the proposed ballot. By offering fans false hope of a deal within the city he is hoping to stop the move to Kirkby. There is no deal available to the club in the City given the current financial state of the club. Bradley knows this and he knows LCC won’t match the Knowsley deal.
He wants to force us to stay in the city and ultimatly force Kenwright to sell the club and therby obtain outside investment for a stadium similar to Liverpools arrangement with the yanks. The downside to that is the level of debt incurred by the club. Liverpool will be £550m in debt by the time their stdium is built and the fans are going to have to support that debt through higher prices. Everton currently struggle with a debt of £35m.
Untill Bradley comes up with some hard facts and specific details of commercial options I am inclined to treat his outbursts with the utmost disdain. I personally wouldn’t trust him as far as I could throw him. The only thing he cares about is his political image.
Tom Hughes 14Posted 21/07/2007 at 11:49:35
Since when has it been the council’s job to propose sites for Everton FC? Didn’t they give them the option on one of the best pieces of real estate in the country only for the club to blow it? This is about the club seeing the cost of everything and the value of nothing. They’re chasing a freeby at the behest of Tesco(anybody ever hear of Tesco giving anything away?) with it would appear, no real consideration of the potential damage it could cause or of any options.
patty blue 15Posted 21/07/2007 at 12:38:03
has everyone forgotten, Warren Bradley is supposed to be a die-hard Everton supporter... about time he proved it!!
Tony Marsh 16Posted 21/07/2007 at 12:54:09
Now at last maybe the morons who are prepared to blindly follow Kenwright to Kirkby will wake up.
Warren Bradley says it all when he states,We are getting a cowshed that will need rebuilding in 50 years time.A COWSHED.Lets just hope the message gets across to the likes of Eileen Roberts and David Barks.
Good Evertonians they maybe clued up they aint.
Alan Clarke 17Posted 21/07/2007 at 08:32:01
Why is Warren Bradley waiting until now? Why wasn't he making these noises last year? When Kenwright anounced an "exclusivity period", why wasn't Bradley pleading with Everton to consider his "4 options" and these other interested commercial partners?
Because he was too busy sorting out his favourite club's new ground with the rest of his LFC-supporting council mates. Everton are now just an afterthought. LCC are not arsed about us.
Well Warren, you've let us all down and the blame lies with you as much as it does with Kenwright.
Brian Waring 18Posted 21/07/2007 at 13:23:08
You know what?Some fans are such hypercrites.On one hand they are having a dig at Bradley.Don’t trust him,he’s muddying the waters before the vote,he’s covering his back.And on the other hand they tell us,Kenwright’s doing the best for the club,trust him.Yeah trust a man who made up false investors,just to get what he wants.And Allan,where do is say that the council have to come to us to offer us a site for a new groung?Thats not their job to look after us.
Eileen Roberts 19Posted 21/07/2007 at 13:23:19
Warren Bradley’s remarks in the local press today are no more than typical politician’s arse-covering. The so-called alternative sites are unfunded, one of them has already been written off because of access/transport difficulties and if Everton were to build EXACTLY the same stadium on one of those sites it would cost at least £50m extra immediately because Bradley has already stated LCC will not be giving any land to the club. It’s the straw-clutchers who are not ’clued up’ not those of us who live in the real world!
Brian Waring 20Posted 21/07/2007 at 13:42:09
Do you know what Eileen?It’s you who doesn’t live in the real world.What makes you think you are right?How do you know Bradley is bullshitting?How you can attack a man,when we have got the biggest bullshitter in the world in charge of the club?A man who has made up fake deals just to get what he wants.We don’t want him to just fuck Kirkby off,just to get togethor with the council and see whats on offer.Just because you see it as the ’deal off the century’does not mean we all have to agree with you.Thing is,Kenwright’s descision has probalby already been for him by his good mate Terry.I wonder how many Tesco points him and Wyness have had pu into their back pockets?
Eileen Roberts 21Posted 21/07/2007 at 13:57:05
Brian, of course I think I am right. Just as I’m sure you think you are right. There wouldn’t be much point if we all thought we were wrong would there? Furthermore, just because I think Bradley is behaving like a typically self-interested politician does NOT mean I am a fan of Bill Kenwright although I do not feel it is a good idea for you or anybody else to suggest he takes backhanders from Tesco. What is on offer from LCC is what you read in the local press this morning...which does not add up to anything more than arse-watching by muddying the waters which is a typical politician’s trick.
Brian Waring 22Posted 21/07/2007 at 14:32:10
Eileen,my point was that a lot of fans all think Kenwright can do no wrong and we all should go along and trust him,because he has the clubs intrest at heart.And they are all right and we are wrong.But,I can’t trust him anymore.NTL,Fortress funds etc.Maybe you think I am being to cynical,but I think there is more to this deal than we are being told about.That is what happens when you lose someones trust.Someone has mentioned a piece in the Echo and daily post were Wyness says "We have been in discussions with LCC for months now"Correct me if I’m wrong,but hasn’t there been an exclusivity period in place so they couldn’t talk to anyone else?So they shouldn’t have been talking to the council then should they?Talk about covering your arse.I’ll tell the fans I have been in talksd with the council,even though I haven’t,that should keep them from having a go at me.He must think we are all fucking stupid!
John Charles 23Posted 21/07/2007 at 17:33:41
Tom Hughes:
I am agonising either way. I see the aguement against it fully, but then if its Kirby or Goodison then for me tis Kirkby.
I just dont believe LCC. These ’options’ are not options. They do not have a deal on the table and the exclusivity is a BS excuse for LCC.
If LCC has an alternative development - then they dont need to talk to Everton they need to talk to Evertonians - all they need to is say "Here is the site . Here is the cost , here is the retail space , here is the funding , here is the commericial partner .
Thats an ’option’. An option isnt saying "oh Scotty Road is big enough for a new ground isnt it?" which is all the are effectivly doing.
They are hoping us Evertonians bail the city out by voting no.
50m it will cost them? 50 years at new stadium = 1m per year or 83 grand a month or 21k a week - thats what it cost to keep Everton in Liverpool and LCC dont think its worth it.
You guys are full of good intentions and I admire you, but its hocus pocus, until this ’other option’ is on the table or at least shown to be in negotiations then I am not interested - its diversion tactics from LCC. Facts, figures please - why? It doesn’t exist.
Sean Billington 24Posted 21/07/2007 at 12:45:31
SO Warren Bradley is confident that Everton can still be kept in the city, and has come up with 4 new sites which would mean Everton could stay in the city. We were the first in the city, we gave the reds our old ground, it says 1887 on our shirts not 1882, we asked for Stanley Park first and we were turned down, as it's an ?open park? for ?locals? and a ?playing area? yet, the LFC get the go ahead?
Season Ticket Holders get the vote, we don't. Every Evertonian should send a letter in of protest that simply says "KEIOC ? Keep Everton in our City." It is simply worth a try as we are the People's Club. SPEAK UP NOW OR REGRET IT LATER!!! "Together we stand, dived we fall"
Tim Lloyd 25Posted 21/07/2007 at 22:11:21
There appear to be a number of anti , or at least doubtful contributions regarding the proposed site at Kirkby.
Personally, I think that a very fair picture of the site is revealed. These ’doubters’ don’t want to be convinced. They want to stay ’in the city’. Why? Its not a very attractive city and there are so many active supporters who don’t live there or, as in my case lived in Liverpool for just a year, a year too long, its not a particularly attractive place, particularly on the outskirts.
I cannot see the objection to moving to Kirkby, a much pleasanter area, access to which appears to be simple, much more convenient than the ’old lady’ is.
Then there are these ever present snide comments regarding Bill Kenwright and Mr. Wyness. Most seemed to be based on rumours and so called failures to keep each and everyone of you up to date with every small detail of Everton’s finances.
What gives you the right to ask for this sort of information. Are any of you large shareholders? Most unlikely, you simply pay for your seats, either at the turnstiles or as a season ticket holder. For your money, you get a seat and the ability to watch and support your team which seems to me to be improving year by year.
What about Kenwright and Wyness. They have their money in the club. Why should they choose the wrong options all the time. They do stand to be hit in the pocket. The continual anti brigade lose nothing and, in my eyes, contribute nothing to the problems that the club meet up with day to day.
Lets move to some of the wonderful sites now suggested by friend Bradley. He’s been aware of our need to move for long enough, why are these sites only now forthcoming? Is he about to find benefactors to give us the money to build there?
If we lose Kirkby to follow these pie in the sky suggestions, I feel we will never forgive these doubters who live in cloud cuckoo land.
I like the idea of Kirkby, sure, Kenwright and Wyness may not be the finest brains in Britain but I feel they are doing a good job, very particularly Mr. Wyness. As for Kenwright, hes as big a fan as any one of you, he’s ploughed in his widow’s mite and is entitled to do what he can for ’his’ club. I rather feel that there are few if any of you who can claim as much right.
John Charles 26Posted 22/07/2007 at 16:57:38
Actually err Wyness is just an employee... but good point. No doubt Bill has a lot of personal dosh riding on the club.
Be honest, if you lived in a 112 year old terraced house in the city and someone offered you a 500,000 5 bedroom home 4 miles away on the outskirts and you only had to pay 50,000 on a mortgage you’d be mad not to take it wouldnt you? - thats what we’re getting here. As a pure financial decision I agree its a no brainer.
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