The Mail Bag
Trust (can you really)
Comments (14)
There has been a lot said about fans walking away from the club if they move to Kirby, this is just scaremongering rubbish. As a life-long Evertonian (albeit exiled these days) I would find it impossible to walk away from a club I have supported all my life.
However, the real issue here is not of fans walking away but of the new generation of fans growing up in our city who will be told of the one true city club, unfortunately this will be the rabble who have stolen our park. I have put this to my misguided friends who support the the dark side and they believe this fear to be a reality.
Everton in moving are taking a large gamble. To make this work we have to trust that Moyes will bring in a trophy a least once every two or three seasons. On top of this, the new ground has to have an atmosphere that football supporters will love going to, more so than an iconic Frank Gheryish 75,000 seater that will be built on Stanley Park. The stadium will need to be special and incorporate part of the old Goodison (possible replicate the iconic structural lattice work of the Bullens Road)
This question to move eventually comes down to a question of trust. Do we trust the people who are holding the future off our club?
Do we trust Moyes to bring in a trophy every couple or maybe three years? The answer is he is the best manager in the poorly financed end of the Premiership and given the time and financial support maybe he will.
Do we trust Kenwright? The answer here, it is a definite possibility that no Evertonian trusts him.
Do we trust Wyness? See above...
So one maybe out of three; hardly a reason to back the move. I strongly urge all Evertonians to vote NO.
Peter Pridgeon, Posted 26/07/2007 at 00:49:57
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Brian Williams
2 Posted 26/07/2007 at 08:55:38
2 Posted 26/07/2007 at 08:55:38
Excellently put Eric. You seem, like myself, to accpet the reality of our situation while realising that neither BK or KW would gain by our failure.
Everybody WANTS the ideal situation. Everybody wants to build a bigger and better stadium than the RS and lord it over them. Quite right too!!!
But it aint gonna happen. Should BK step aside, there ISN’T an imaginary sugar daddy waiting to pour untold millions into the club and as much as I myself dont want the move I believe that all the wishing and hoping and quoting of history isn’t going to make a vast sum of money miraculously appear and solve all our problems.
I’ll play devils advocate and ask this question of people though.
Four or five seasons after the move to Kirby, there we are with increased revenue, increased crowds, and sitting two places above the RS in the league, having beaten them twice that season?????
How would we all feel then?
Just a hypothetical point, because increased revenue doesn’t guarantee success...but you can bet your next weeks wage that ever increasing debts and lack of investment DO guarantee the opposite. I dont want to move out of the city either, but sometimes you have to settle for the lesser of two evils !
Everybody WANTS the ideal situation. Everybody wants to build a bigger and better stadium than the RS and lord it over them. Quite right too!!!
But it aint gonna happen. Should BK step aside, there ISN’T an imaginary sugar daddy waiting to pour untold millions into the club and as much as I myself dont want the move I believe that all the wishing and hoping and quoting of history isn’t going to make a vast sum of money miraculously appear and solve all our problems.
I’ll play devils advocate and ask this question of people though.
Four or five seasons after the move to Kirby, there we are with increased revenue, increased crowds, and sitting two places above the RS in the league, having beaten them twice that season?????
How would we all feel then?
Just a hypothetical point, because increased revenue doesn’t guarantee success...but you can bet your next weeks wage that ever increasing debts and lack of investment DO guarantee the opposite. I dont want to move out of the city either, but sometimes you have to settle for the lesser of two evils !
Tom Hughes
3 Posted 26/07/2007 at 08:56:14
3 Posted 26/07/2007 at 08:56:14
I think we will lose fans out of pure inconvenience. The vast majority of the metropolitan area has no direct bus service to Kirkby an extra 5 miles and at least one bus/train interchange when we are all travelling in the same direction could mean as much as an extra hours journey. Many people in the central, South Liverpool and Wirral areas will have never had any reason to go there and will be completely unfamiliar with it, and it will have no attraction for them or sense of home. I think this loss could be a significant percentage. Further extrapolation over future generations could see a further decay in support due to identity loss by virtue of the location....... It’s hard to see an upside apart from the supposed freeby, and that myth is being exposed daily.
Steve Sweeney
4 Posted 26/07/2007 at 09:02:04
4 Posted 26/07/2007 at 09:02:04
In reply to the above posters AKA Mr K and Mr W,
The fact is most Evertonians DO NOT trust Wyness and are lacking in confidence of Mr K.
If this was a democracy then a vote of no confidence in them would have been made and they would have been ousted months ago.
The tie up with Tesco and the lack of any other options are what is, I believe, the main reason for the amount of opposition to the move as well as the move itself.
There would now appear to be a white horse entering the fray i.e. The Bestway site, this must be looked at.
This would be a prime city centre location, visible from all over the city centre, with the right vision it could be made into one of the iconic buildings for future generations to appreciate as are the other buildings in Liverpool city centre.
The Asian businessman who runs Bestway is no fool and if he thinks this can be achieved then I would hope EFC would act quickly and with him to evaluate the scheme and make it happen.
This site with its location would attract many people and companies wishing to invest be it in retail housing or leisure/hotels, also I would bet that there will be massive regeneration grants available.
In closing I also believe that Everton fans around the world could raise in excess of £50m by way of a share issue, if the club had vision and the leadership it deserves they would make this happen- the fact that many seem to think that no other plan than the tie in with Tesco will happen is why there exists the mountain of mistrust with Mr. W and Mr .K.
The fact is most Evertonians DO NOT trust Wyness and are lacking in confidence of Mr K.
If this was a democracy then a vote of no confidence in them would have been made and they would have been ousted months ago.
The tie up with Tesco and the lack of any other options are what is, I believe, the main reason for the amount of opposition to the move as well as the move itself.
There would now appear to be a white horse entering the fray i.e. The Bestway site, this must be looked at.
This would be a prime city centre location, visible from all over the city centre, with the right vision it could be made into one of the iconic buildings for future generations to appreciate as are the other buildings in Liverpool city centre.
The Asian businessman who runs Bestway is no fool and if he thinks this can be achieved then I would hope EFC would act quickly and with him to evaluate the scheme and make it happen.
This site with its location would attract many people and companies wishing to invest be it in retail housing or leisure/hotels, also I would bet that there will be massive regeneration grants available.
In closing I also believe that Everton fans around the world could raise in excess of £50m by way of a share issue, if the club had vision and the leadership it deserves they would make this happen- the fact that many seem to think that no other plan than the tie in with Tesco will happen is why there exists the mountain of mistrust with Mr. W and Mr .K.
Erik Dols
5 Posted 26/07/2007 at 09:40:32
5 Posted 26/07/2007 at 09:40:32
Steve Sweeney, AKA Rafael Benitez (really mature this name-calling thing, isn’t it?), I’M AGAINST KIRKBY, can’t you read or what?
So your saying it’s a fact that most Evertonians don;t trust those two. Prove it. What’s your source?
You don’t agree with my reply so you do two things: First, to put me in the Kenwright/Wyness camp in the most childish way possible, while the only thing I said was I do trust them as far as trust means I think they’re not the root of all evil only lokking to sell out Everton. I just think they’re making the wrong choice, but not out of selfish motives, just because they can’t come up with a better option, which is a sign that they might not be suited for this job.
Second: saying something is a fact while it’s obviously your opinion and it is impossible to find out if it really is a fact.
I personally do not believe in your share-issue, but I do hope the Bestway-option is worked out some more before the ballot. I’m afraid it just won’t happen.
So your saying it’s a fact that most Evertonians don;t trust those two. Prove it. What’s your source?
You don’t agree with my reply so you do two things: First, to put me in the Kenwright/Wyness camp in the most childish way possible, while the only thing I said was I do trust them as far as trust means I think they’re not the root of all evil only lokking to sell out Everton. I just think they’re making the wrong choice, but not out of selfish motives, just because they can’t come up with a better option, which is a sign that they might not be suited for this job.
Second: saying something is a fact while it’s obviously your opinion and it is impossible to find out if it really is a fact.
I personally do not believe in your share-issue, but I do hope the Bestway-option is worked out some more before the ballot. I’m afraid it just won’t happen.
Phil Bellis
6 Posted 26/07/2007 at 09:37:52
6 Posted 26/07/2007 at 09:37:52
Erik..I’ve worked in Project Management the last 20 years and have NEVER known a responsible company to have no fully planned fallback position or contingency (plan B?). No ’businessman’ or decent CEO would allow this. To admit as much shows how badly the club has been run and is indicative of a quick-fix mentality, usually as a result of painting yourself into the proverbial corner. Therefore, I would trust neither motive nor alleged benefits.
Dan Mckie
7 Posted 26/07/2007 at 10:10:22
7 Posted 26/07/2007 at 10:10:22
I think that was just bad wording by Keith Wyness when he spoke of no plan B Phil,what I think was meant was that the Tesco deal was the best (or the only) deal on the table and plan B at the moment would be to stay at Goodison and continue the search but there is a fear that the search for an offer like the Tesco one would be long and fruitless.If BK wants to build this stadium and sell EFC for a higher price like some have suggested,then let him because I would rather that than him being forced to sell when the club is in real trouble.
Erik Dols
8 Posted 26/07/2007 at 10:06:00
8 Posted 26/07/2007 at 10:06:00
Phil, I’m only 25 years old so I lack your experience. But I do work at the financial headquarters of a billion-pounds-turnover company (although I doubt that every month when the pay-check comes in! ;) ) and I’m currently involved in the friendly take-over of another company. It’s not sure that it will go ahead, but in all communication we act as if there is no plan B for when the take-over doesn’t go ahead. We actually do have a plan B (and C), but we feel plan A is the best way for it. To make support as big as possible, it is easier to just act as if there’s no back-up possible. I assume that’s what Wyness is doing. He honestly feels Kirkby is the right way forward, so he tries to convince everyone to choose accordingly. I personnaly see no harm in that, it is what you should expect with ballots like this one. The other way around you have people claiming moving to Kirkby will be the end of Everton. Most probably, the thruth is somewhere in the middle: If the Kirkby-deal collapses, Wyness (or his successor) will try and find another way to do something about the stadium-issue, and if the deal goes on, Everton will still be alive and kicking. It’s just election-rethorics, I wouldn;t put too much attention to it if I where you.
Steve Sweeney
9 Posted 26/07/2007 at 10:18:31
9 Posted 26/07/2007 at 10:18:31
I will not get into name calling etc but Erik,
I did not mention anything about your support/non support of the move to Kirkby, as for using fact instead of -in my opinion- a slip of the keyboard.
However if you read these boards or talk to fans, I can say that there appears to be, from the people expressing an opinion, litte trust in BK or KW.The reasons for this are many but Kings Dock- Fortress funding are two that come to mind. Not forgetting the fiasco over Villareal tickets and planes not taking off etc etc.
This is also confirmed by listening to local radio where I have yet to hear anyone who is not mistrustful of the motives behind the spin coming from our CEO.
So if you think you can trust the present custodions of the club feel free, it is just that I do not trust them, and all of the Evertonians that I have talked to in the last few months, do not trust them either.
I did not mention anything about your support/non support of the move to Kirkby, as for using fact instead of -in my opinion- a slip of the keyboard.
However if you read these boards or talk to fans, I can say that there appears to be, from the people expressing an opinion, litte trust in BK or KW.The reasons for this are many but Kings Dock- Fortress funding are two that come to mind. Not forgetting the fiasco over Villareal tickets and planes not taking off etc etc.
This is also confirmed by listening to local radio where I have yet to hear anyone who is not mistrustful of the motives behind the spin coming from our CEO.
So if you think you can trust the present custodions of the club feel free, it is just that I do not trust them, and all of the Evertonians that I have talked to in the last few months, do not trust them either.
Dan Mckie
10 Posted 26/07/2007 at 10:54:28
10 Posted 26/07/2007 at 10:54:28
Personally Steve I dont take much notice of radio phone-ins and things like that because generally they are negative people looking to have a rant,I think there is a lot of mis-trust aswell as a lot of trust in the board but it is common that the trusting positive people dont tend to be as vocal!
Brian Williams
11 Posted 26/07/2007 at 11:48:24
11 Posted 26/07/2007 at 11:48:24
Steve Sweeney..I think you missed Erik’s point completely with regard to the name calling....Err! you already HAD got into it by referring to him (and myself I believe) as AKA Mr K and Mr W, seemingly because we voiced an oppsoite opinion to your own. Thats by the by though.
I genuinely believe firstly that Keith Wyness is doing the best HE can to extract Everton from the pit of financial mismanagement thats gone on for years and years. By all accounts he’s doing a pretty good job of that too. The difference between "him" and the likes of you and me though, is that he has no sentiment (there’s none in business)when it comes to the club)and is looking at things from a viable (and I stress the word viable)financial perspective.
Yes, Goodison undoubtably CAN be overhauled but..and here’s the bit we maybe need to accept. Not only have we not got the money but we’re unlikely to EVER have it in order to do that.
Yes, a site within the city boundaries would be brilliant, but again the likelihood of us getting a site and then getting the finance to make it viable is very very unlikely.
The Bestway site, the loop? Have Bestway agreed to fund the project to the tune of £100m or so? I don’t think so..
Has anybody else come up with a plan to get us a new stadium with an outlay from the club (if you believe the figures) of circa £30-40m? I dont believe they have..
Dont get me wrong mate I hope with all my heart that something comes up that allows all our dreams to come true with regard to the stadium issue, I really do.
Unfortunately dreams don’t pay the rent, or transfer fees, or wages etc etc etc....
Am I sick as f*** at the situation we’re in? you’d better believe it.
Do I believe that holding out for a dream will make everything come good in the end...Take a guess !
I genuinely believe firstly that Keith Wyness is doing the best HE can to extract Everton from the pit of financial mismanagement thats gone on for years and years. By all accounts he’s doing a pretty good job of that too. The difference between "him" and the likes of you and me though, is that he has no sentiment (there’s none in business)when it comes to the club)and is looking at things from a viable (and I stress the word viable)financial perspective.
Yes, Goodison undoubtably CAN be overhauled but..and here’s the bit we maybe need to accept. Not only have we not got the money but we’re unlikely to EVER have it in order to do that.
Yes, a site within the city boundaries would be brilliant, but again the likelihood of us getting a site and then getting the finance to make it viable is very very unlikely.
The Bestway site, the loop? Have Bestway agreed to fund the project to the tune of £100m or so? I don’t think so..
Has anybody else come up with a plan to get us a new stadium with an outlay from the club (if you believe the figures) of circa £30-40m? I dont believe they have..
Dont get me wrong mate I hope with all my heart that something comes up that allows all our dreams to come true with regard to the stadium issue, I really do.
Unfortunately dreams don’t pay the rent, or transfer fees, or wages etc etc etc....
Am I sick as f*** at the situation we’re in? you’d better believe it.
Do I believe that holding out for a dream will make everything come good in the end...Take a guess !
Tom Hughes
12 Posted 26/07/2007 at 12:31:57
12 Posted 26/07/2007 at 12:31:57
Brian Willaims said: "Yes, Goodison undoubtably CAN be overhauled but..and here?s the bit we maybe need to accept. Not only have we not got the money but we?re unlikely to EVER have it in order to do that."
Well how come it took up to only a few weeks ago for the club to admit that little gem? Prior to that, the whole stance was placed behind GP being beyond redemption, and that 50,000 seats could not physically be placed on the current site. I sent some initial outlines to show that it was indeed possible, and mysteriously they changed their tack. Fact is GP’s capacity could be increased to that of Kirkby for possibly less than our contribution to Kirkby, depending on which day you ask KW what the cost is going to be. BTW, I think you will find that the Bestway proposals will be similarly weighted to Tesco’s, and even if there is some extra cost, is there really any comparison in terms of location?
Everton are the biggest club not to be bought out.... how long do you think that will last if the club is forced to be receptive by way of a solid NO vote for kirkby?
Well how come it took up to only a few weeks ago for the club to admit that little gem? Prior to that, the whole stance was placed behind GP being beyond redemption, and that 50,000 seats could not physically be placed on the current site. I sent some initial outlines to show that it was indeed possible, and mysteriously they changed their tack. Fact is GP’s capacity could be increased to that of Kirkby for possibly less than our contribution to Kirkby, depending on which day you ask KW what the cost is going to be. BTW, I think you will find that the Bestway proposals will be similarly weighted to Tesco’s, and even if there is some extra cost, is there really any comparison in terms of location?
Everton are the biggest club not to be bought out.... how long do you think that will last if the club is forced to be receptive by way of a solid NO vote for kirkby?
fearnsey
13 Posted 26/07/2007 at 13:35:48
13 Posted 26/07/2007 at 13:35:48
you can urge all you like mate, but I am not taking any advice off someone who lives 12500 miles away.
Should I be giving you advice on what branch of The Warehouse to do your shopping in.
This is a great move for Everton, just what we need.
Should I be giving you advice on what branch of The Warehouse to do your shopping in.
This is a great move for Everton, just what we need.
Roy coyne
14 Posted 27/07/2007 at 00:46:44
14 Posted 27/07/2007 at 00:46:44
I can understand people voting yes although I myself will vote no,but how any one can say they trust Bill and Bully leaves me gobsmacked does NTL,Fortress fund,the dock, the missing transfer money and Bills 24/7 search on the Joseph set mean nothing to you When Bill took over I was delighted but slowly he has used up all credibility
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1 Posted 26/07/2007 at 07:56:25
And I do trust Wyness as far as we’re talking about him just doing his job as a non-toffee businessman. I don’t agree with all his decisions/actions, but I don’t think he’s the devil who has a hidden agenda. He’s just trying to maximize the money coming into the club on the short term, and that’s pretty much the job he was appointed to do.
And just to make sure: I do not want to move to Kirkby. but that doesn’t mean I will act like these two are the biggest evil on earth.