I don't see that a "Yes" vote gives the club any bargaining power. Surely after agreeing to a move to Kirkby and then securing a mandate from the majority fans, Kenwright would look like a fool, Keith Wyness's position would be untenable and Sir Terry Leahy would be hopping mad?

By swallowing the Arteta piece so carefully orchestrated to put fear into the hearts of Evertonians who feel the club will lose out on top players if we spend another day at Goodison longer then necessary, you're buying into the propaganda that is going to be coming thick and fast from both the club and the local media in the coming weeks?

The LCC are serious about forming an alternative proposal and it is they and Warren Bradley who will be angering a lot of voters should they screw Everton over with false promises designed to derail the Kirkby vote. Surely Bradley's only motivation for proposing an alternative would be to keep EFC in the city and, as an Evertonian, surely he'd want to do everything to improve Everton's position in Liverpool?

And Bestway's role in this is not to engineer a quick land sale ? they see the opportunity to invest in a larger inner-city regeneration scheme involving the local authority, EFC, and a potential host of commercial partners, similar to the Kings Dock project.

A "Yes" vote offers no bargaining power at all, in my opinion. It'll be full-steam ahead to Kirkby on the Wyness Express...

Ignore John,from personal experience i know he’s a red! Keep his dastardly work off this site!

John

I’m with you. Without Kirkby, LCC would have done nothing. Vote ’No’ to Kirkby and LCC can go back to sleep for years while we rot.

Au contraire, I think the yes vote, should it happen and I hope it doesn’t ’could’ work like that. It all depends what Betterway has in mind. All we know is they have gone in with the minimum bet of ’expressing an interest’, waiting to see maybe, what comes out in the ’flop’ and how much the others in the game put in later. But until the 1st card is turned over,we don’t know who will fold or who will go large;

All writers and critics who prophesy with your pen, don’t speak too soon for the wheel’s still in spin and theres no telling who will be naming, the loser now is later to win,for the times they are a changin

wise words indeed

I for one want to know a lot more about the so called "Bestway loop" suggestion that the LCC brought forward - what exactly is on offer? Others have said Bestway is not a small company- this is off their website ;
http://www.bestwaygroup.co.uk

Bestway is... the United Kingdom?s second largest Cash & Carry operator in terms of turnover with Group annual turnover in excess of £1.7 billion; the second largest Cement producer in Pakistan; joint owners of Pakistan?s third largest Bank; the largest overseas Pakistani investor with investments in excess of US$1.0 billion and a global workforce of over 21,000 people spread across four continents.

To claim Tesco are doing this as a favour is utter claptrap, with Everton they win planning permission in Kirkby and get a Liverpool site in GP thrown into the deal, two supermarkets for the price of one. Terry Tesco works for his shareholders not Everton people need to wake up and smell the coffee, just as those who have been fooled with this free stadium claim, Goodison is falling down and the latest propoganda bollocks claiming to be Arteta from Trinity Group serial bullshitters.

How does voting for Kirkby and giving BK and KW their majority vote give any city centre site a look in? Once it’s gone it’s gone, I’m not against a new stadium but the whole way this is being done just stinks daily of desperation and disgustingly nasty propoganda and misinformation, BK is a bullshitter supreme, hiding at his panto whilst this all goes on like a shithouse so he can blame the decision on the fans.

John, I agree, I’ve had this funny feeling all along that we were playing this game of brinkmanship with LCC, and I think a no vote will give LCC the chance to be less "urgent" with their proposals (if that was, indeed, possible!). A yes vote will be the chance for LCC to put up or shut up. And if not, we get a shiny new stadium at a huge discount!

Whats all this bollocks about me being a red - I must have imagined having a season ticket for the last 20 years

I agree a yes vote, to use as bargaining power, is high risk stuff but I dont want us to end up empty handed - you just know if something can go wrong it will for us. I happen to think that the minor shareholders should ask for a meeting with BK and get some cast iron assurances about exploring the loop option - if the club came out to say this it would take a lot of the agony out of the vote

Politics, politics, politics. Vote smart is really good advice. The new ground move is embroiled in politics and the people who believe that money is the holy grail. Kirby, Kensington, the money people are defining where & what you will pay good money for to appreciate your team. The LCC have sat on their greasy palms with no thought of the development of a football club that is run as a private business within their city boundaries. They are succumbing to the achievements of Liverpool FC in modern times, which as a club can not disputed, but LCC remember, can and should be questioned with respect to what should be a non partisan and democratic decision process. But this goes to prove the deep ingrained belief of the top dog mentality. If anything there does seem to be an awful stench arising from the debacle that has gone on previously with any debate/enquiry of development of football stadia in the city of Liverpool. Statements of taxis to deliver P45’s come to mind to the people who think they are voted to high office just to bemoan the public situation that faces them. The LCC are piggy backing on local emotion, and for this guy Bradley to say one thing and do another.. well it is about time that the voters woke up to his antics and show him the door. So he is a season ticket holder, he can afford it, but that affordability does not give him the distinction of any more power in the vote than any other season ticket holder, but it gives him a vote that I am pleading for to support this club. He should not abuse his position as leader of the LCC. I believe he is walking what is a dangerous line in public office. I also believe that the board of EFC are acting admirably. The views of Wyness are pleadings to the heart of Everton FC not those that reside in a city that at long, long last is receiving monies from a benevolent fund in European control... Wake up to the fact that the pond is not big enough for two monoliths who think like big club/small club and big fish mentality. Lick your wounds, take the insults; build, build, build, and then return in a position of strength. I am not interested in bragging rights as a post match tribal goading. It may take time. It will take time, but true loyalty you can not buy! Rememeber, we are born to the cause, therefore an idea can not be destroyed; it lives in the minds of men. It is nurtured, and developed over the years. It was the initial defining moment of the spirit of men led by community for the spectacle of football from the early times of the realisation that this sport can generate a strength of comradeship, unity, and the sense of belonging. The idea is to provide a spectacle of sport, defined as football, that shows skill, guile and physical strength, but to be played from a position of equal; to appreciate the qualities of the opposition, and to welcome visitors to the club and area, from where ever they travel, and to where ever the club may play. History tells us that we stuck up two fingers before, for what our forbears believed to be right. Time has come around again, but we will prevail with the board and management team that are in place. They are strong minded. They are single minded, and accept the knocks and diversions, but we all should prevail in the betterment and cration of a new 21st C EFC. My mind is set for a move. Kirby, is the financial answer to the woes of the club. Kirby, it seems from the civic quarter, are welcoming and generous. Boundaries change, politics again, but your heart is where your team is. I want to see my team in comfortable surroundings; in surroundings where afterwards I am not considered or perceived as a nuisance to the locality. I want the move to be of immense benefit to the local area that we move to. I want EFC to be ingrained into the mindset of the locality and beyond the geographic boundaries. I want EFC to be admired, and its supporters welcomed wherever our travels or endeavours take us, but I want future generations to have the sense of being born to the spritual meaning of EFC rather than the locality. I want this beyond silverware, shiny stadia, or latin mantality of king of the hill. Our day has come, open your eyes, look at the bigger picture and now believe and strive to extend that belief via Moyes, via the Board, to have a groundswell of support to the club. 100% support and show no hesitance in your decision. Do it and move on.....

Anyone who votes no to Kirkby based on Bestways ’offer’ needs theur head examined.

If they seriously intend to stop us from moving they need to put some flesh on the bones and tell us what they have in mind and what they are prepared to contibute to a stadium. Lets have some ballpark figures at least. Its time to put up or shut up

If these ’partners’ were so serious about this why are we only now hearing about this? Why haven’t they been putting this package together while we have ben in discussions with Kirkby ready to offer us a viable costed and detailed option. Get real! This is just a panic response by LCC to try and save face by stopping the move or by being able to say ’ well we tried to keep you in the City but you opted to leave’
If we vote no this deal will dissappear into thin air and our future will once again be clouded in uncertainty.

I actually think Bestway will wait until the last minute,and then bring out their proposals for a new stadium.

John Bellis, To some whom I need not name, the slightest hint or of a vote in favour of Kirkby is like a red rag to a bull.
To label you as a red shows what kind of scumbags they are.
I cannot vote yet I urge all Evertonians who do have a vote to ignore scumbags and think carefully about your decision.

What the fuck? Is John Bellis actually Bill Kenwright using a different name? If you vote ’yes’ to Kirkby then Blue Bill WILL sign on the dotted line! There is no bargining tool to be used here. Bill wants to move us to Kirkby and if the majority of fans vote ’yes’ then thats where we will go. How dumb are you?! You theory is like marrying someone as a barganing tool to shag her sister or something. Utter rubbish, someone please delete this from the mail box!

first i dont want to leave goodison , second i dont want to leave liverpool.
but out of all our options i am now firmly in the camp for a ’yes’ vote for the move to kirkby.

its taken weeks for me to decide on this decision , but it is the only deal which is affordable and is minimum hassle to the clubs finances.

to vote ’no’ would be completely fool hardy and a decision made for completely selfish reasons and not in the best interests of the club imo.

i would actually say a ’no’ vote would damage the club and those who vote ’no’ would metaphorically being putting a bullet into the heart of the club.

i ask everyone whos thinking of voting no , to stop and think before being so flippant with there vote. dont make your decision with your heart , make it with your head !

as for the ’loop site’ option ?
compared to kirkby its not viable imo.

Now Nick Harris appears to be thinking along the same lines as I myself have come to think.
He doesn’t want to leave Liverpool. He doesn’t want to leave Goodison. HOWEVER !!!! he seems to have done what countless others seem unable to do, and that’s, separate sentiment, blind loyalty, bragging rights, brinkmanship etc etc etc from cold reality.
He appears to have made a decision that he’d rather not make, but after weighing up all the pro’s and cons considers that a "yes" vote is the way to go.
I’m not saying whether he’s right or wrong. Only time will tell.
I applaud him though for his thought process and the fact that he seems to have approached the vote with an open, level headed mind.
Others posters should take a leaf out of his book...whichever way they intend to vote.
Just one more thing. Is it just me or is it so, that those who intend voting "yes" appear to be voting with their heads, while those in the "no" camp seem to be more concerned about the RS?? just a thought.

Dick Fearon."To label you as a red shows what scumbags they are"Dick,it works both ways.I am anti-Kirkby,and because my view point never agreed with a pro-Kirkby fan,I was called a redshite who must work for LCC.So,reality is,there must scumbags on both sides of the arguement,for and against.

Why is it the fans wanting a yes to the Kirkby move use the council as there main reason for leaving Liverpool. The LCC dont love us BOO Hoo Hoo.What a load of shite that statement is.

As I keep saying the council are probably sick to death of Kenwrong and his antics by now.

It was kenwright who fucked the Kings Dock site up and the council were 100% behind EFC when we were going for it.Blame Gobshite Bill for putting us in this posistion in the first place.
LCC can only do so much but if the
chairman of our club likes to string people along who can blame the LCC for giving him a wide berth.
Stick Kirkby up your arse its the biggest mistake we could ever make.Read Kev Sparkes article and then tell me its the right thing to do.

Vote for Kirkby and forever be labeled a traitor in fact yes voters are like Scabs in my book
and should be run out of town.

How does looking for an other option to vote for ruin a one option vote..... You can’t ruin the farcical.

I love you Tony Marsh !

I think Tony, if you check out Nick’s post you’ll find he doesn’t once mention LCC....or LFC for that matter. Y’see you should take the time to read what people have to say before you go into your dellusional rants m8......I still love you though !

Brian I never said Nick metioned the council I meant in general most posts regarding the move make comment blaming the LCC for our plight when it is of course
Bargain Basement Bills fault.

Lets do lunch

Tony..You recommend people to read Kev Sparkes article.

I just have, again.

In it he states that the club are giving the fans a vote so that if it goes wrong they can say "Well you voted for it."

Now pay attention here Tony.

GROW UP !!!!

As a season ticket holder I will vote YES. Despite the shit from some on this site and as for Marsh’s book who really gives a fuck about that, it would be a boring read, repetative and full of negatives.

Changing the subject completely.

Has anyone else seen the Daily Post online version that states the club have accepted a £4m offer from Sheff Utd for Beattie?





http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/everton-fc/everton-fc-news/2007/07/28/everton-accept-offer-for-beattie-64375-19533103/

Yes and if they do we should snatch their hands off as long as it gives us time to replace him. Yes he may have been crap but he is still one of the squad.

Personally Tony I think its a story put out by BK and KW to piss everyone off because deep down they know we all love Beattie and they want to piss us off and ruin the club because after all thats in their best interests isn’t it..and when he’s sold they’ll say...Well you all shouted stuff like "Fuck off Beattie you fat bastard" and other hurtful stuff like that...so it’s your fault. So there !!!!!!

beatie has turned down moyes offer of flying back to talk to the blades.

it looks to me as he is stubbornly staying with us.

Well actually Nick it was BK and KW that stopped him flying home to talk to Sheff Utd because they want to piss us all off blah blah fucking blah blah.....

Fuck me I’ve turned into Tony Marsh

I had not thought of it in that way Brian but you may be right. Bastards they are ruining this club by selling our best players for peanuts. I am now going to form a focus group KBIOT.Anybody who does not join should realise they are a crab and should be run out of burger king.

Getting back to the original thread like many that have been posted on here it has become more of a slanging match than a debate. It started out outlining why a particular person thought a yes vote could be useful then became you?re a fucking scab you should be run out of town ect. Feelings are obviously high on this one however it does not help when things degenerate to this level

I have read numerous thoughts on this site and others many are thoughtful and informative and are in some ways assisting me in making a decision either way.

However as with national politics it would appear that rather than make a constructive and reasoned argument either for or against the move to Kirkby many are resorting to abuse towards those who do not agree with them.

This is in many ways similar to politics in general were parties point out negatives (Blair?s demon eye?s) rather than things of substance.

If someone does not agree with you its not because they are a dickhead , stupid, scab (insert any comment here). It is because they have an opinion different to yours.

Tony Miller, your observations seem to be about right regarding the degenerative effect of prolonged debate on a topic that some people unfortunately can?t handle without descending into abuse. Normally I?d delete the offending items and terminate the thread, but since the submission engine is fucked and you all seem to be having so much fun, I think I?ll just let you all carry on... Enjoy!

Hear hear mate, well said.

So youre a red now if you want to move to kirkby FFS what next

when we left anfield all those years ago, just across the park we had the best ground in the country for years untill just recntly actuly. its only a short time in history but the reds are getting more fans through the gates than us. well go forward 100 hundred years when we wont even be in the city.. there will be aggro on the same scale as man utd even worse when the kop start calling us wooly backs. dont vote vote yes, un less you want your decendents to be reds. dont say it wont happen, look at john moores grandson, he took all our money to anfield. in fact i,d rather move back to anfield than go to kirby

I’ve more than dipped my toe into this subject,as Tony Marsh’ll attest to..and the biggest point I’ve tried to make is that people should vote with their head and not their heart.
After reading Joe Beardwood’s article on the financial review 2006/7 I’d say unless we get outside investment we’re f*cked if we do, and f*cked if we don’t move).
Costs are rising (pretty obvious) and it would appear that TV money isn’t enough to do more than put off the inevitable rise in debt. I can see the reasoning behind the board wanting the move, simply put it’s to increase the club’s income and they obviously feel that can’t be done at Goodison (without going further and further into debt).
I don’t believe that either BK or KW are in this to run the club down, that just doesn’t make sense. I can also see at times that either, or both, of the two gents mentioned have been somewhat economical with the truth...maybe for what they percieve as the right reasons. You only have to read some of the posts on here to realise how emotive an issue the move/non move is and they’ll feel that they make decisions while keeping emotions in check. I believe that BK and KW want to take the club as far as they possibly can, especially BK, who like him or loathe him loves Everton FC.
In my own heart I think that BK’s accepted that we’ll never compete financially with the big 4 (as they’re referred to) although he’d probably never come out and publicly admit that, and that HE is able in his capacity to lead us as far as we can realistically expect to go (not geographically speaking) hence his unwillingness to let go (if you believe that investor after investor has been turned away).
Maybe, just maybe, he’s keeping quiet through all this because KW is using just his head, and BK just can’t do that. Try it yourself as an Evertonian. Try not to get those butterflies when you hear the first beats of Z Cars. Try not to feel proud when you’re hundreds of miles away and spot that Everton shirt somebody’s wearing.
The question we have to ask ourselves because we all know and agree, surely, that TRUE success in football today costs millions is.
Is moving to Kirby the best option to secure our long term financial future.
Ask yourself nothing but that and you’ll come to the right answer for yourself. Don’t think of RS comments. Don’t think about where you’re gonna have a bevvy or which bus you’ll get just.....

IS MOVING TO KIRBY THE BEST OPTION TO SECURE OUR LONG TERM FINANCIAL FUTURE.

God bless each and every Evertonian.

Just had a drive around the bestway site, it does appear tight for a new stadium to fit into,but never actually got my tape measure out.What did strike me though was how derelict the whole of great homer street is, from Everton park sports centre right up to greaty market. This whole area is ripe for regeneration and LCC(in partnership with any large building co) should be looking at A new stadium as the focal point to the upgrading of the whole area of Everton. (ONE MILE FROM THE CITY OF LIVERPOOL).