The Mail Bag

Visit the loop and see for yourself

Comments (19)

When Kirkby was first suggested by the club I was excited by the prospect, we were having a consistent season and the talk of the new stadium coupled with state-of-the-art training facilities and academy excited me. In my mind since the start of the Moyes era we have made slow but steady progress, (I know you will point to 17th place but overall we have).

Then came the exclusivity period which I assume was put in place to protect Tesco's interests. We were told there would be a ballot of the fans to see if we would support any proposed move.

My view was pointing towards a yes vote, and then came KEIOC. We were told a significant minority of Evertoinans met to discuss the future of Keeping the club in our city. Bradley announced that he was aware of investors who would be interested and that there would be parcels of land available.

Even the most ardent yes voter would want if possible to stay within the Walton/Everton area or at a push the city centre. But I have to admit that the suggested location of Kirkby just doesn?t cause a problem for me.

I was proud that ordinary Evertonians were undertaking efforts to ensure the survival of our club and there would at least be a counter point to any official line. Even if I decided to cast a yes vote?

Meanwhile the people?s park had been well and truly surrendered by the city to our bastard offspring, the Yanks invaded with plans to annex the park as a 51st state, making the possibility of keeping Everton in the Walton/ Everton area remote.

Realistically we all know in our hearts that the suggestion that Goodison would be redeveloped was a non-starter. Yes it could be, we?ve known that since the GFE plans, but we knew it would not be deliverable (to use bullyspeak).

I don?t propose to go over where my view of the KEIOC group soured, we all know it and they know too where they have gone wrong yet they, with Bradley's assistance, lead us to believe that there is a site, a holy grail if you will, and presented to us the Scotty Road Bestway/loop. KEIOC have championed this site with a passion whilst still beating the redevelopment drum.

Not only that but they a held a public consultation which I attended. It became clear to me from the consultation that redevelopment was still the preferred option, but was told the proposal would fit on the loop. We were then informed that Bestway wanted to do their own design and that that was going to be delivered shortly.

I listened to Radio Merseyside last night and in my view James Barton was the only one who made any sense, Bully did what he is paid to do ,and the No point of view did them selves no favours with the emotive anti board spin (in my opinion).

Even at this point the NO campaign had still not convinced me that plan B (redevelopment) or C (loop) are deliverable.

And then it hit me, today landed with a thud through the letter box an envelope from the electoral reform services. This is it no more hiding behind internet message boards, can?t put it off any longer have to make a decision. I?m still leaning to a yes vote I have read the clubs brochure and the KEIOC/GFE update what else can I do?

And then it hit me go to the loop. I?m in Liverpool, the loop's in Liverpool, so tonight I jumped in the car and went to the loop, made my way over the drawbridge single entrance and formed my own view of plan C. My only points of reference are Anfield, Goodison, Maine road, Eastland?s, Millennium stadium and Old Trafford.

I was able to drive right round the site and it immediately struck me that we would struggle to fit Goodison in and have sufficient room to breathe if leisure/ other business was also part of the development. On-site parking would have to be abandoned and any future expansion would have to be at the expense of the on-site leisure developments. I know of no stadium in the country that has under-pitch parking and I know how we like our firsts but can't see that happening.

I would urge those who are pinning their hopes on the loop as a credible alternative take some time and visit the site before you vote. It may not change your view but has to be better than a wide angle aerial shot of the site.

The ballot paper doesn?t have to be in until 23/08/2007 and I would urge you to take some time to consider your vote before it is cast however you end up voting.

Finally I would again urge for calm on Saturday, you may disagree with alternative views however we are all Evertonians and Saturday should be about what happens on the pitch

Come on you blues
Chris Taggart, Speke     Posted 07/08/2007 at 20:49:39

back Return to the Mail Bag

Comments

Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer


Lyndon
Chris, I don't think visiting the site is really going to give you a clear idea one way or the other. The plans being drawn up by Bestway/LCC should show their vision of what is architecturally possible.
Tony Marsh
1   Posted 07/08/2007 at 22:05:08

Chris I too have got my reservations about a new ground being built in the loop but that doesnt mean we must embrace the Kirkby deal.No we must sit tight
and hope that if we can get going
as a football team and get our selves in the spotlight a bit more then someone will come along with a plan to buy out BK.To run away from the spotlight by hiding
in a retail park in Knowsley will definetly not raise our profile.
How can it? Once weare gone then thats it Liverpool will reap all the benefits of being the only club in a one club city.New fans
the corporate sector,players will all flock to the new Anfield while we wither and die in the out backs on acheap and nasty retail car park. Sad but oh so true.
Alan Clarke
2   Posted 07/08/2007 at 22:08:13

My NO vote is not dependent on the redevelopment of Goodison or The Loop. I don’t like the whole do or die attitude that’s being presented by those in favour of Kirkby. What KEIOC have presented is that there are other options. Options that they have investigated on a limited budget and resources meaning the plans presented aren’t immaculate and the funding may seem not to add up. BUT they show other options are available and therefore it is not a case of Kirkby or bust.

A NO vote is not a YES vote for The Loop site. This site represents other options rather than a "no plan B, exclusivity period" that Wyness puts forward.
A NO vote is exactly what it is - a NO to moving to Kirkby.

I hope Evertonians realise the huge decision they have to make that affects future generations of Evertonians. Goodison is old but she’s not falling down. Lets sit tight until the right option becomes available.
Chris Mat
3   Posted 07/08/2007 at 22:19:49

I will be voting NO but I agree with the pessimism about the Loop. Location is great - central and in Everton too - but the site is not sufficient and right at the tunnel head to cause congestion. I am sorry that Long Lane seems to have fallen off the radar - presumably because there is no Bestway to pay for the development. But if I had to choose between Kirkby and the Loop, it would never be Kirkby.
bluenose
4   Posted 07/08/2007 at 22:22:44

tony, alan how long do we wait?? and hope?? at least we now have an option how would you feel if the kirkby option wasnt available? why has it took so long for lcc to provide an option? chris- good post last point the best COYB
Neil Pearse
5   Posted 07/08/2007 at 22:21:35

For once I find myself agreeing with Tony! (God help me.) I am a ’Yes’ but Tony hits the nail on the head when he says that "we must sit tight... and then someone will come along to buy out BK".

Forget the Loop, forget GP redevelopment, they are utter irrelevances. They are physically of marginal practicality, and financially impossible for us.

The only thing that makes sense if you are going to vote ’No’ is that you believe that a (very) big new investor is about to come along and pay for a new ground for us in the city. (For sure as hell the LCC and Bestway aren’t going to.)

If you don’t believe this, then you are willing to risk our club languishing in Goodison for years, with a decaying ground and stagnant revenues.

I think taking this kind of risk with our club is irresponsible, which is why I will vote ’Yes’.

I also believe we are more likely to get a new investor AFTER we have landed a new ground paid for by Tesco and Knowsley.

But I am glad that all you ’No’ voters are so convinced that our sugar daddy is just around the corner. You couldn’t give the rest of us a hint as to why they haven’t shown up yet, and who they might be could you?
Tony Marsh
6   Posted 07/08/2007 at 22:58:04

Niel who says know investor has shown an interest in our club these past few years?Bill Kenwright thats who and we all know how economical with the truth he is.For all we know BK might have rebuffed numerous advances by now just to keep himself at the helm.Why will investors come after we leave?It doesnt make sense that point of view as Kirkby is hardly a venue for a club thats saying come and get me is it?
Neil Pearse
7   Posted 07/08/2007 at 23:10:51

Tony, why would a determined investor not announce publicly that they were interested in investing? Why always the conspiracy theories about BK "rebuffing numerous advances"? You really believe that "numerous" investors have approached BK, and we have not heard of ONE of them? Really?

If I had the odd hundred million and really wanted to take over Everton, I wouldn’t take no for an answer, would you?

Investors will more likely come after we land Kirkby for the rather obvious reason that (unless they are REALLY rolling in it like our RS Yank friends) they will not have to find millions themselves to build a new stadium.

I’m sure you see it differently, but a financial investor is going to look pretty positively on a big traditional club like Everton, with a shiny new stadium in a big new development backed by none other a respected business force than Tesco.

One thing is for sure: they won’t give a flying fuck that the new ground is on Merseyside but four miles from the existing ground, and across a meaningless council borderline (which could easily change again anyway).
Alan Clarke
8   Posted 07/08/2007 at 23:23:00

Neil, did we just finish 6th and qualify for Europe? Did we finish 4th not long ago? Have we just tied up our best players in long term deals? Are we really languishing in Goodison?

Don’t be so naive in following this Kirkby or bust attitude. I am quite certain the majority will vote NO. I used to think the NO voters were voting with their hearts but now I’m convinced they’re (we’re) the ones who have given this the most thought.
Neil Pearse
9   Posted 07/08/2007 at 23:30:29

Alan, I agree with you about our recent achievements on the field. I also agree with just about everyone else that we have the highest quality, albeit too small, squad that we have had for possibly 15 years.

But financially we are in poor shape, to put it mildly, and desperately need the new sources and levels of revenue that would come from a new stadium.

My view is that we would certainly be languishing in Goodison if we were still there in a couple of years time, no big new investor having bought out BK, no new ground on the horizon. That is the nightmare scenario.

As I’ve already posted, if you believe that a very major new investor is about to appear to pay for a new ground, you can happily vote ’No’ to Kirkby. Who knows which part of Liverpool they might buy up to put our new mega-stadium on?

If you are not confident that such an investor will appear in the next year or so, and we reject Kirkby now - then I can promise you that you will come to massively regret that you did not take the money from Tesco and Knowsley and build a new stadium four miles from Goodison.

It’s up to you. Whatever my heart tells me about leaving Goodison, my head tells me not to rely on a new investor suddenly dropping from the skies to solve all our problems.
David Barks
10   Posted 07/08/2007 at 23:48:47

Thank you Neil. The conspiracy theories are just so out of control. Kenwright could not have turned down numerous takeover attempts without one bit of a mention in the press. Or is the next conspiracy that BK now controls the entire media in the UK. Every single rumour of a takeover gets mentioned in the press far before that club makes a statement regarding the matter. As a matter of fact, it is the media speculation and leaks that cause the clubs to either admit or deny it.
Alan Clarke
11   Posted 08/08/2007 at 00:13:39

Do you even know what you’re voting yes to? How much is your ticket going to cost? I think one very important point is what are the transport links? Have you ever been to Bolton on matchday? It’s an absolute nightmare with one road in and one road out. Are there going to be train or tram links? Am I going to be queuing up on the M57 for an hour every home game?

What is the financing of the deal and how does it work? Terry Leahy is not giving us a handout, will we be paying tescos back for the rest of my lifetime and my childs lifetime?

I couldn’t give a shit about conspiracy theories. The club have not given us anywhere near enough information to vote properly on this topic. If you vote yes, it’s a blind vote or a leap of faith and I don’t think Kenwright warrants that kind of faith. I also don’t think a new stadium in a retail park makes us a better business propsition to investors. Has a billionnaire bought Bolton? We are a much better proposition if we stay within the city boundaries.
John Charles
12   Posted 08/08/2007 at 01:03:14

It doesnt matter if the loop is too small mate! they have boss designers and stuff... we can just build it anyway, it will only cost about 400 million quid, but fuck it! nil satis nisi optimum right?!?!?!


*..
Chris taggart
13   Posted 08/08/2007 at 07:21:22

Since LCC and bestway have announced that they are undertaking a review of that site then I think it is right that it be treated as a legitimate plan B, Is it wrong to assume that some no voters may be doing so on the basis that the loop site is a definite possibility? you may not take it into account when casting your vote but some people might, the loop is only 5 mins away from GP and we are told a significant number of fans live within spitting distance of the ground , therefore its not too much of a stretch to ask them to have a look is it, This is LCC’s last roll of the dice if they want to KEIOC, The NO campaign would have us believe that there are options out there and the board is wrong to have no plan B, yet why are LCC concentrating on one site why no plan C? Double standards?

We need an investor before we can improve our match day facilities but we can?t improve our match day facilities without an investor, do you see the problem?

No serious investor is going to look at Everton and go right the club will cost me £80mil and I?ll need £50mill for players that ought to do it, what?, facilities a bit ramshackle, what? 4 to 10 thousand restricted views what? Land locked what? JLA terminal 2 in Stanley park what? Need a new stadium? That will be 130 mil plus 200 mil, ?then fuck that I?m off to city, villa, Coventry, with my wad?.

I am under no illusions that the club will more than likely be sold if Kirkby does go through, but I fail to see how this isn?t a win-win, you get Billy bulshitter out, we get fresh investment, stadium, playing squad etc, you cant accuse Bill of doing things on the cheap and then hoping a cheap solution can be found to resolve the problem.

A no vote is a vote for uncertainty, to stand still; it is one of imperfect options, i.e. we might be able to build elsewhere with emphasis on the might.

A yes vote, is a vote for some certainty, it is certain that we will leave goodison park for Kirkby, it is certain that our new stadium will be in Kirkby, it is certain that the new stadium will be delivered with assistance from our partners

what is still uncertain is the level of debt that would be attched either the kirkby project, or the options project,

I agree with Neil Pearse (great posts BTW mate) you are taking a huge leap of faith that something better is around the corner if you vote No but at least you will have had the oppertunity to explore other options right?
Carlos Roberts
14   Posted 08/08/2007 at 10:12:19

Chris, Like yourself, I agree that there are many questionmarks regarding the possible Loop Plan. The location is great but the site needs some careful thought.

I spoke to the Bestway representative last Friday and two points which he mentioned may help clarify some of the issues you have.

Firstly, they were looking at the option of under-stadium parking (which, of course, may or may not be feasible). Secondly, the mixed retail development mentioned in conjunction with LCC would be in the area surrounding the Loop Site, not in it.

Hope this helps, but lets wait and see what develops this week.
Andy C
15   Posted 08/08/2007 at 11:09:10

Sit tight and wait...well theres a good idea.
I love goodison but lets face it , we are never going to redevelop her.
AS for the loop it seem like ,lets suggest any old site ,weve(lcc) done nothing for them in the past but lets look like we care.
Dont think so ,besides LCC cant organise a Piss up in town(mathew street)
What chance have they with a stadium.
Im prepared to listen to the Loop suggestion but give me figures,statistics and most important were the money will come from to build it.
KEIOC done nothing for me, the day they showed footage of violence on Everton Valley they lost all credibillity.
Tom Hughes
16   Posted 08/08/2007 at 12:26:59

Th loop has sufficient space to take the stadium, the initial studies showed that much there is also scope to cover the road on its southern segment around into the tunnel. The properties off Juvenal street are all due for demolition in any case. Scale Drawings will show this all to be a viable option.
Chris Taggart
17   Posted 08/08/2007 at 12:33:49

Tom

I will assume that the bestway plan will be designed to fit the site, I just cant see it working, I apreciate i am a layman compared to you however i am guessing covering up the tunnel to expand the site is not cheap

My concern that there is a core of our support that are using the Loop site to justify their no vote and have formed that view by drinking KEIOC’s kool aid,

I know I am not preaching to the choir but I cant get over the feeling that that if a no vote happens the loop will be exposed for the red herring it undoubtedly is

EFC might not have a plan B but neither do LCC/bestway/KIEOC, They dont like spin as long as its not theirs

I have no doubt that the bestway plans will be seen to be viable but who do you trust to deliver

TESCO/KMBC

or

LCC/bestway

given the failings of LCC thus far
BIG DIG
Kings dock arena
matthew street
loss of events such as creamfields

I wouldnt trust Bradley to find his arse with both hands, what makes ordinary evertonians that they can deliver a staduim?

Given that the vote will be closed prior to the end of the months consultation i feel that the loop should be discounted from anyones deliberations.

Paul Carroll
18   Posted 08/08/2007 at 13:11:00

At the moment I think I am going to vote ’No’. I see the need for new investment and a new or developed ground but have not yet seen enough of a good argument to move us out to Kirkby which outweighs the negatives.
However, I am not sure the suggestion from Tony to just sit tight and wait for an investor to buy out KW is the right choice either. We could end up with a foreign investor who doesn’t really care what the fans think and just goes ahead and moves us even further away from Goodison. We will have no vote, no say whatsoever.

Now where are we going to find a billionaire Blue...
Karl Jones
19   Posted 08/08/2007 at 19:52:33

I totally agree with what you say Chris, and did visit the loop myself on Monday with some slight hope.
Surely anyone can see with the naked eye that it would be impossible to fit a state of the art stadium there without building stands out over the road (just imagine the planning process for that).
Then of course we would need to attract businesses around the stadium.On Wednesday the Liverpool chamber of commerce made a statement in the local press that Grosvenor and other city centre businesses would fight any development there...Keith Wyness is right all the potential sites are being dismissed one by one..
The Kirkby site is the only realistic chance we have within the forseeable future to move and attract investment.

© ToffeeWeb