What if I left work early today and got knocked over?

You can’t live life on What If’s?

Brian - everton have said all along that a ’YES’ vote will only mean that they continue discussions! not a definate move.

SO, what IF we vote no and then all of a sudden LCC go quiet thinking theyve won and were staying, or WHAT IF we vote yes and it gives them another kick up the arse and they come back with an even better alternative?

Steve,Thing is, most of the Kirkby debate has been based on what ifs.

As has KEIOC’s redevelopment of Goodison Park.

Brian, I’m sorry but you are simply clutching at straws. There is no ’what if?’ with respect to the Loop. It is too small and there is no funding.

The LCC have ALREADY said that they will not grant us land in the way that Knowsley have promised. Bestway are too small for this kind of venture, and are wandering around looking like confused people who have found themselves at the wrong party.

We actually ALREADY know enough to know that Kirkby is practically viable (supported by Tesco, Knowsley etc. etc.), and the Loop isn’t.

The respectable reason for voting NO is ’let’s sit tight in Goodison and hope a major new investor buys out BK and builds us a new stadium somewhere’ (see e.g. Joe Jennings’ recent post).

Voting NO because of the Loop is just desperation.

I wouldnt even call KEIOC’s redevelopment a ’what if’ Steve,it was never gonna happen!

P.s My ’yes’ vote is in the post and I aint worried,I just hope that many more of the same follow it :)

Well done Dan lad, at least someone is thinking about the future of the club.

Unlike Dan I thought about waiting, for about 2 hours, then realised my 22 month old might get hold of the slip; at this point I put my cross in the yes box and popped it in the post.

The footprint for "The Loop" is half an acre bigger than the Kirkby one.Bestway can deliver a similar financial package to Tesco so why rush to pass your vote back?

Too many Steve’s it’s so confusing...

"Bestway can deliver a similar financial package to Tesco" - where do you get that from Steve?

There is no evidence whatsoever for your statement that Bestway are going to pay tens of millions like Tesco towards a new stadium for Everton Football Club.

And in case it has escaped your notice, Bestway is a rather small company and Tesco are a global retail giant.

Cut out this crap pretending that the Loop / Bestway is in any way similar to Kirkby / Tesco. It’s nonsense, and you know it. It’s like saying Real Madrid is pretty much the same as Brentford.

Neil,even before the loop came about,I was already voting no.Not because of sentiment towards goodison,not because of boundaries.I am originially from Huyton,not far from Kirkby,which is also classed as knowsley.But,when people ask where I’m from I say Huyton in liverpool.I just think financially over the long term, it is the wrong move.No disrespect to the people of Kirkby,but Huyton is a nicer place than Kirkby(not by much)and no disrespect to my fellow Huytonians,but it’s a fucking hole.If we being offered this deal in Huyton I would have slashed my wrists by now.And as I said I think Huyton is a nicer place than Kirkby.

Somebody put a post up a couple of days ago concerning a conversation with someone with Bestway, in a roundabout sort of way, they more or less said they couldn’t put in the amounts of money that would be expected and they would expect that Everton would come up with other investors into the project.

On a par with Kirkby, where Tesco’s is gonna stump up a shedload of cash. You do the math.

I think, in the end I made my mind up, that a Yes vote, may in the end open up a better possibility of a new offer in Liverpool being feasible.

Not an easy decision though to back that with a mark of a pen...

Because we know how loud the yes campagners have been in the support of this move, with the website www.destroy our club.com, how they have obtained quotes from notable ex players in suport of the move, how every article in support, says fuck sentiment and tradition in the ass we dont care, and posting everywhere on this site and others that the have posted their yes vote you just cant move for them posts can you?

why waste time castigating those who intend to or have voted yes it is futile,

However you intend to vote is your own buisness if you choose to say how you have voted that is a matter for you but i wouldnt expect to be bullied for stating it

If anything the No’s have been more prevalent in asserting that they have voted or intend to vote no as soon as theve got the form, good luck to them,

If Kirkby goes through will you be picketting outside shouting scabs at the supporters going in?

Grow up will you

Its all getting too silly now

Good comment Chris, I am a supporter of the Kirkby move and I have been called a scab and a traitor by certain "Supporters".

At the end of the day, I think it is in the best interest of the club to move and that is my opinion. I am an Everton supporter and I will continue to be an Everton supporter regardless of what decision is made. I certainly will not be stupid enough to drop the club because a decision has been made that I don’t agree with, that, in my opinion, is the difference between real supporters and knee jerk reactionists.

Thanks Steve Claringbold.

So there we have it. The LCC and Bestway have both ALREADY said that they will not stump up the money that Knowsley and Tesco have promised.

Everton would have to fund the Loop mainly themselves (we can’t), or find a rich new owner to do it for us (we haven’t yet).

What more exactly do you want?

Vote NO by all means if you believe that a rich new owner will appear soon (although they just might not want to build us a new ground within LCC boundaries....). Or of course if you would just rather stay at Goodison, whatever.

But the Loop, Bestway and the face-saving LCC are simply irrelevant.

Get this straight, I’m voting NO and was always going to vote NO. Not because of LCC, not because of Bestway, not because of the good work of KEIOC, not because of Kenwright. Simply because Kirkby is not the best possible option for EFC. From a marketing and business development perspective its crap, despite Wyness’s claims of a big catchment. Being in the city offers much more potential to value our traditions, build the future fanbase and attract investment. If that means waiting, fine. Better opportunities than Kirkby will come.

How do you know Simon?

Do KEIOC have any plans to set up FC Everton as a protest just like the mancs?

then they can go an watch them on a hill in a playing field?

No problem Simon.

And I’m voting YES because I think it unlikely that "better opportunities than Kirkby will come", and that voting NO is therefore a huge risk to take with our football club as the Premiership changes so rapidly as a business.

If the NO vote does go through, I really hope that you are right, Simon, and that these better opportunities, with our new rich owner, really do come. Otherwise our club is in real trouble.

If these new opportunities are just around the corner, I hope we have someone who is gonna fork out the cash for them, ’cause at the moment there is no-one chomping at the bit to invest in us and build us a brand spanking new stadium.

the loop site is quite clearly shit.
I cannot imagine a worse site for a football stadium, surrounded as it is by a busy road.
Wake up ladies. Its Kirkby all the way for me!!

No, Steve, Neil is a supporter who has an opinion on the club and what is happening. This is the kind of crap we get on here, supporters slagging others for having an opinion.

Pointless, totally pointless.

Steve, have a look at his previous comments directed at me!

Steve If it’s on another post you’ll have to guide me, If it’s on this one, I can’t see anything where he slates you.

Unless you mean this one:

"Bestway can deliver a similar financial package to Tesco" - where do you get that from Steve?

There is no evidence whatsoever for your statement that Bestway are going to pay tens of millions like Tesco towards a new stadium for Everton Football Club.

And in case it has escaped your notice, Bestway is a rather small company and Tesco are a global retail giant.

Cut out this crap pretending that the Loop / Bestway is in any way similar to Kirkby / Tesco. It?s nonsense, and you know it. It?s like saying Real Madrid is pretty much the same as Brentford.

And if that is the one you are referring to you want to grow up mate.

Steve Claringbold and Neil Pearse.....would you indulge this doubter/no man by explaining (separately and without any collusion between yourselves) your understanding of the contribution being made by Tesco towards the cost of the proposed Kirkby Stadium.

I ask this because you both seem so certain that this does represent the "Deal of the
Century." To have reached this conclusion you must have seen something in the brochure that provides an unambiguous explanation of the financial package on offer. I admit to being confused by the figures. To help us all would both of you (independently) answer the following;

TWENTY QUESTIONS (a popular radio programme in my youth)

1. What will be the final value of the completed stadium?

2. What is the value of the land upon which the stadium is to be built?

3. Who is providing the land and at what cost to Everton?

4. How much will the stadium cost to build? (construction costs only in £millions)

5. Where did you get that information? Has it been verified by an independent source?

6. What part of the building cost will be paid by Tesco? (in £millions)

7. Where did you get that information? Has it been verified by an independent source?

8. What part of the building cost will be paid by Everton? (in millions)

9. Where did you get that information? Has it been verified by an independent source.

10. Accepting that the figure you provide in answer 8 is accurate, where do Everton say that their money is coming from?

11. How much do Everton say that they will receive for the sale of Goodison Park?

12. How much do Everton say that they will receive (lump sum) for the naming rights of the Kirkby stadium?

13. Do you think that the answers given (by Everton) in 11 and 12 are realistic?

14. What is the expected shortfall between the building costs to be found by Everton (not allowing for inflation and overspend) and the money raised by sale of Goodison plus naming rights of new stadium.

15. How do Everton intend to find this shortfall?

16. When you add answers 2 and 4 together do they come to the answer you gave to question 1?

17. If not, why not?

18. Considering the answer that you gave to question 4, what is the cost per seat (for construction) based on a 50,000 capacity?

19. How does this figure compare to other stadia (both in England and abroad)?

20. Do the answers you have given to questions 18 and 19 make sense when you read the motto of the Club that you support?

Look forward to reading your answers Neil and Steve. May I take this opportunity of thanking you, in advance, for helping a dullard see what you have seen clearly in the brochure.

Only a fool votes why the information is still not clear Steve I think you have a problem you sound like a spoilt kid I have voted so there well wow I have not and i am voting no but will at least give both camps the courtesy of listening to what they say in case the pro Kirkby move come up with a compelling argument what amazes me is the number of yes voters who are not prepared to listen before voting no one is going to steal your vote and why the animosity to the people looking at other views how long have you been going? to the matches Ive been going since 1958 and think enough about everton to actually read all the claims that both sides make and dismiss the bullshit that comes from both sides as this to me is too important to treat like a competition to vote first may be at the end your are right in what you vote for but my be its getting older but surely a check would have been safer If we go to Kirkby I would like to think the people that take us there have considered all angles you have not done that your placing your trust in a man who treats you and me and every other blue as idiots I mean the lies about the fortress fund,the dock which I did vote for going tits up because we had no cash.nearly every other team has found investment but not 24/7 Bill but its your choice and its the future fans not us that will bear the brunt of it if we get it wrong

While we are at it can we lodge the same questions to KEIOC, LCC and Bestway?

Roy, if your comments were aimed at me let me explain.

For a start off, I haven’t voted yet. I am however, a bit pissed off with people who claim that supporters who vote yes aren’t real Everton supporters and are scabs and traitors.

I listen to people’s opinions and I voice my opinion also, it’s called debate. I don’t claim mine is right and I don’t say theirs are wrong. There is no right or wrong in this, and people who claim that a pro kirkby vote is selling real Everton fans down the river is deluded.

And if you think I haven’t looked at all sides your wrong, and I’m still looking and until I’ve got all the information my vote is staying where it is.

James Gardener.....why would I ask KEIOC, LCC and Bestways questions about Tesco’s "deal of the Century?"

I am asking questions of two yes men posting on this site about some of the fine detail of the proposals that they are endorsing through the ballot box.

If people, in the future, act in an unquestioning manner to endorse poorly presented, vaguely funded alternative "Deals of the Century" presented by LCC/Bestways then yes I will question their actions too.

Steve I apologise its just I hate the way the whole thing is going its like two gangs of kids in the school yard I can assure that the statements like Tony made the other day about yes voters being not proper evertonians is another stupid remark the only way this can come to a real discussion is if all crap like that are dismissed if they are not Evertonians why have they season tickets sadly it seems the norm now to slag people Iam all for constructive criticism I have learnt that I am not always right ask the wife But I don’t trust Kenwright and Everton being responsible for over budget cost started alarm bells ringing but I do and always will respect the right of people who view it different.

I would love to see a public debate with all interested parties present taking questions from the fans silly thought I suppose

Dan, how do I know? I don’t. How do you know that Kirkby is deliverable? That £10m per year will be generated for teh team? The answer is you don’t. All we have is words from Wyness and a few fancy pictures. Even the few financial details issued don’t add up. I’m not prepared to go against my instinct on such a flimsy basis.

Brian Finnigan - I am sorry you went to all the trouble to write out your ’twenty questions’. But as you very well know, neither I nor I imagine Steve Claringbold (who perhaps I am in collusion with, although we have never met!), have this level of detail. Much of which is about a future which hasn’t happened yet.

Speaking for myself, I am in no way a "yes man", and I am not "certain that this is the deal of the century", nor have I ever said so. I think KW was a bit of a fool actually to use such a phrase.

I am pretty satisfied that both Tesco and Knowsley will be making contributions to the new stadium which will save Everton FC tens of millions versus any ’go-it-alone’ scenario. I am also satisfied that, as long as major disasters do not occur, Everton can therefore acquire a new stadium whilst conserving much of our own money for other purposes (e.g. players). Do you seriously doubt this? You think Everton, Tesco and Knowsley are all simply lying to you?

As it happens, I am actually certain that Kirkby represents a better commercial deal for Everton than the LCC / Bestway Loop (for all the reasons I have already posted - i.e. LCC and Bestway have already said they are not going to stump up any money).

I am also certain that Kirkby actually represents the best new ground deal for Everton currently on the table (after a number of years of trying).

And I am certain that the only way to get a better option for Everton would be for a very rich new owner to buy out BK and build us a new ground. Unfortunately, I have no certainty at all that this is going to take place in the near future, especially when such a new owner would have to pay up for a new ground.

That is why I am voting YES.

Neil Pearse.....I would have preferred you not to have answered my challenge at all rather than come out with all that gullible flannel. God help us if all those voting yes (i.e. yes men) have the same lack of questioning as yourself. Can I not tempt you to have a stab at questions 4,18,19 and 20? Go on, live dangerously.

Simon,I dont know fully whats going on with Kirkby,that is correct but what I do know is there are plans and financial backers and voting slips and glossy leaflets with quotes from people involved with the club who also back the proposal! Thats more than what anyone else has! That is why I voted yes,because Everton need a new stadium,fresh investment (tesco and knowsley) and a chance to compete! This is all on offer.

Perhaps Brian you would do me the courtesy of pointing out which part of my "gullible flannel" (thanks!) you disagree with?

That Tesco and Knowsley will be paying for the majority of the new stadium perhaps?

That the Loop will be a better financial deal than Kirkby maybe?

That a rich new owner is not about to rescue us and build us a new ground?

Only three questions from me, so I am making it pretty easy for you.

No probs, Roy, I agree with your comments a public debate would be the way forward, but everyone needs to understand that we all support the same club.

I’ll stand side by side with the next supporter whether they’ve voted yes or no.

Love the banter.

Live in Kirkby and cannot wait for new stadium and having a local pint without having to get a taxi home.

As many have said on all of these interesting, and some comical debates, it was always a done deal and my attitude towards life is if you cannot do anything about something then dont concern yourself, go with the flow, be a sheep, enjoy our new ground and when the red shite are paying thousands for their season tickets and we are still relatively cheap have a giigle at them, Kirkby aint so bad, not been mugged yet but believe we have all been mugged at Goodison, house not been brokn into yet, but had my car broken into at Goodison, and if you want I can give you the crime rates for Kirkby against other areas sites have been mentioned and none compare favourably.

But as I have previously stated my yes vote was posted 30 minutes after receipt.

Will keep enjoying you all beating each other up on e-mail and look forward to about you all at the new TESCO ground (I will be in aisle 17 by the root vegetables).

p.s. But on a serious note wouldn’t it be nice if we retain ownership of Goodison, turn it into a car park with attendance wearing our shirts and charging red-shite £20.00 to park..

There are starving kids all around the world and we beat ourselves up about were we watch our team.

I travel to all away games and don’t not go because we play Wimbledon in MK or because I don’t like Old Trafford, I go to a ground, an ground to watch EVERTON.

Keep up the good banter and my driveway holds three cars at £10 a game and with an application for an extention I could have paid my mortgage in 15 years....Your, a real supporter with a yes vote........

Roy I agree we need to stop playing who the better evertonian is it?s like the frost report class sketch

?I look down on them because I am a season ticket holder and go to a way games and voted no to Kirkby?

?I am a season ticket holder and don?t go to away games but voted no to Kirkby i look up to him but look down on him?

?I am a season ticket holder and vote yes to Kirkby, I know my place?

You can point to the boards failures all you want but that shouldn?t cloud the issue, and it tickles me every time NTL is mentioned, by default or by design the failure of the NTL deal was the best thing that could have happened to our club as being invested by a company that collapsed could have sent us the way of Leeds,
The TESCO Coventry site proves that such a development can be delivered and I don?t think the board are playing the emperors new stadium with us
Finally aimed at no one in particular
Is it cynical of me to say there seems to be a socialist/capitalist type divide between the yes and no’s?
Vote no if you must but don?t chastise any one who has the audacity to vote yes it their vote the can do with it what they please

Neil Pearse.....flannel is when you don’t know the answers to questions (not your fault, I admit.....due to the smoke and mirrors presented to you by Wyness) but try to bluff instead of admitting your ignorance. Gullible is when you choose to believe that which is placed in front of you without serious questioning. Put the two together in one posting and it qualifies for the description gullible flannel.

No need to make my questions easy although I do admit that I like multiple choice questions. Without a definitive (i.e. verifiable) answer to my questions 6 and 8, you cannot possibly make your first assertion.

Your second assertion can only be confirmed when we have both definitive (i.e.verifiable) financial details for both Kirkby and the Loop. Without such information, I would be unwilling to make claims for one scheme ahead of the other.....unlike you.



I have no idea if a potential rich owner is somewhere in the near future....neither do you. You can argue that the laws of probability make it unlikely (especially with Billy acting as the salesman) but not definite. I live in hope that some rich suitor will offer us better than Kirkby in both location and quality of build.

Now, what about your answers to 4,18,19 and 20?

Brian, perhaps one of the biggest difference between us (and between most YESs and NOs) is that NOs like you simply do not believe or trust ANYTHING that BK and KW tell them. If they told you that London was the capital of the UK you’d want a second opinion.

That’s your right, but it does make it rather pointless to try to have a debate with you. I can only use the information provided by the club, and judge whether it makes sense. But you don’t believe any of it. You don’t believe anything from Tesco or Knowsley Council either (they’ve hardly denied that they will be financially supporting the Kirkby stadium in a big way). I assume because they are connected in your mind with BK / KW?

In fact, it seems you are more likely to believe what Warren Bradley and the LCC tell you about the Loop - and we are really on different sides on that one.

Since you’ve already apparently made your mind up that anything BK and KW propose must be wrong, then I can only recommend that you vote NO and try to get them out. For you, this is not really about whether Kirkby is right or wrong for Everton - it is about who should run Everton FC. And that’s a different argument.

Neil Pearse....you make too many assumptions about me and my motives. Why? I do not know! For example, I know that London is the capital of England, Dublin/Eire,Paris/France, etc.

You state that you can only use the information provided by the Club, and judge whether it makes sense. Are you saying that it is not possible for false information to make sense? How do you think con-men get away with some of their scams? They are good at what they do and can be very persuasive and convincing.

At no stage have I said that I don’t believe anything that BK or KW say, or Tesco or KBC, for that matter, but I reserve the right to question facts and figures that are presented to me as gospel. Are you not even the least bit interested in the answers to my 20 questions? Would you not like a little more detail than that contained within the brochure? Do you reject the possibility that the figures provided are incomplete and that this might have been done to mislead the electorate?

You misunderstand my motives in raising some of the questions I ask. I can assure you that if alternatives to Kirkby are presented by other parties (Bestways/LCC for example) with a similar lack of critical detail, then I will be on their case too. The least that any of us can do is try to get the full picture before casting votes that could consign Everton Football Club into oblivion.

Finally, don’t recommend which way any of your fellow Evertonians should vote because it is none of your business. You so miss the point when you say that this remorseless questioning on my part is not about whether Kirkby is right for Everton or not. In fact, it is that question and nothing else that motivates my probing. My contention is that for a matter of such great importance to our Club, we should all be asking for more concrete information about the finances before voting.

You quite rightly say that my opinion as to whether BK and KW are right and proper persons to run EFC is another matter. The fact is, they are in charge and I cannot alter that. What I can do is point out the apparent weaknesses in their brochure and ask for clarification of certain points. That is what I have tried to do and if it irritates you, so be it. I know that I will be able to sleep soundly knowing that I have done my best to inform the debate in some small way.

I voted Yes because I think its a good deal full stop

We have to start thinking big and looking to the future.

Who said Bestway are a small company.

From their website
http://www.bestwaygroup.co.uk

Bestway is... the United Kingdom?s second largest Cash & Carry operator in terms of turnover with Group annual turnover in excess of £1.7 billion; the second largest Cement producer in Pakistan; joint owners of Pakistan?s third largest Bank; the largest overseas Pakistani investor with investments in excess of US$1.0 billion and a global workforce of over 21,000 people spread across four continents.

With Thanks to Steve Jones who posted the info 2 weeks ago, but I guess some people only read the bits that support their argument???

tesco made a 2 billion profit compared to bestway a 1.7 billion turnover

who do you trust to deliver a stadium, the major retailer or the corner shop?

Chris, do Tesco own a bank?

Do they invest in excess of $1 billion in other ventures?

Do they have as bad a reputation in their overseas markets as they do in UK?

I’ll give you the answers in case you don’t already know. No, No, Yes.