Pat, if you’re not a regular ToffeeWeb reader then you might not know that we have an open-door policy with regard to articles and letters from all viewpoints. Today, the two lead "featured" articles on the homepage would favour the "no" side; at one point last week three of the four featured articles were overwhelmingly "pro-Kirkby". Browse the recent archive of reader-submitted articles and you’ll see that there is more balance than there seems at first glance. Any imbalance that exists is a reflection of our readers — or at least those who take the trouble to "put pen to paper" — and not a biased editorial policy.

Of course, we often counter articles with which we don’t agree with editorial comment of our own, but with the reader Comments facility the community — i.e. our readership — can offer a counter-weight to anything we say and effectively drown out our opinion completely. Nothing is censored in that regard unless it is outright abusive.

On the specific issue of the stadium debate, yes, the Editors of the site are biased in one direction — some more so than others — and we neither attempt to hide it nor make any apologies for it. We believe that while the vote is laudible, the fans have not been given a real choice.

Instead, the brochure that accompanied the ballot from the club was one-sided and instead of the more concrete information the fans were promised would be appearing on the official website while the ballot was in progress, they have been subjected to an ill-conceived open letter from the CEO callously undermining what could yet prove to be the viable alternative to Kirkby that was denied the fans in the ballot and more persuasion from popular players that the fans should support the Kirkby move.

Our opposition to Kirkby is based not on some stubborn insistence that we have to stay at Goodison Park, as is often assumed — we acknowledge that the club has to move to survive — but on a conviction that relocating to Kirkby is not the right solution for our club and that other alternatives have not been given full consideration.

In the ballot brochure, the official website and the bulk of the local media, the club have an open forum to sell their scheme. The fans websites provide an opportunity for dissenting voices to act as a counter-balance and give a voice where there otherwise wouldn’t be any to those who feel uncomfortable with the rush to Kirkby and who would like to make sure that alternatives like the "loop" are not dismissed out of hand or suppressed by the afore-mentioned outlets.

Pat - the above is an articulate and reasoned response. Beware - wait uitil Tony Marsh reads your post!

Completely agree with you. It makes me laugh that the guys who run this site call the content on the evertonfc site propaganda, ok which it might be, but the propaganda coming out of this site in favour of a no vote is such that these guys just a bunch of hypocrites.

Rebuilding Goodison park will cost too much, take too long and the area will not generate enough extra income for us.
The other areas are too small, and why would we want our stadium on a fucking roundabout? Pollution, noise, traffic..balls to that.
My fave option is to stay in liverpool but kirby is the only option on the table. Its only 4 miles from GP for christ sake and could become part of liverpool in the not too distant future.

This country makes me laugh to be honest. If I said during an election that we all breath oxygen there would still be people arguing against it. We are a country of whiners and complainers who don’t know a good thing when it hits us in the face.

If KEIOC revealed they have found someone with a billion big ones to build us a stadium and invest in the club, in Liverpool, I would go for it, no doubt

So it’s purely about the money Pat? Just sweep your history and identity aside because someone flashed a wad of money at you and said "All this could be yours..... but only if you vote yes!"

Oh please. If there was some transparency in it, I could understand it, but there’s none. And why do you think that is? Because there are no guarantees. The only guarantee is that if you vote yes then we burn all our bridges. I for one don’t trust Wyness and Kenwright as far as I could spit them, so I won’t be supporting them. At least KEIOC are trying with honest intent.

"People who use the ’it’s not in our city’ argument are not worth bothering about"

Unfortunately for you though Pat (and fortunately for me) the people you refer to constitute a large percentage of the indigenous match going support. Like it or not, it is their hard earned pound notes in the form of staple season ticket support that will determine this result

I can tell you that the word on the street is "No" so lets get on with the business of pressuring those in the know to deliver us what we deserve best

relax he’s just a manc who’s used to have a club outside the city.

If Not for toffeeweb, Who let EVERYONE voice their opinions, unlike other sites.
If you just listened to the local radio and read the official site and local press, the no voters would,nt get a look in. Toffeeweb let ALL sides voice their opinions. Excellent site, Keep up the great work.

The site is a disgrace then is it Pat? Let me see, it provides INDEPTH news and information, INDEPTH INFORMATION on the club’s history, INDEPTH player profiles and transfer history, allows for a HUGE amount of imput, debate and VERY varied opinion on all things relation to the club from Everton fans, and ALL without being bombarded with shite adverts, subscription fees or vegtables that look like pet sections.

Now I’ve looked at blue kipper. It’s light, fluffy and something I would have liked when I was twelve.

You’re as entitled to a rant the same as me Pat, but try not to compare sausage meat with steak next time.

Lyndon

You put in your response

Nothing is censored in that regard unless it is outright abusive.

If that is the case why do you persist in allowing Tony Marsh to get away with calling Bill Kenwright "Billy Liar", accuse Keith Wyness of taking back handers and they are just the two i can think of off the top of my head as well as all the other people who accuse the board of anything from incompetence to downright fraud.

I think this board has played a valuable part in the debate, however when the first paragraph has contained wild accusations about the people running the club or the people who will be voting yes I tend to think the writer has lost their ability to convince anyone else of their opinion and are merely trying to convince themselves.

Am I alone in dismissing these kinds of posts immediately because of this.

This is where, I believe, the toffeeweb editorial staff have a duty to their readership to make decisions on what to publish.

Thanks for your time.

Thanks Pat, for voicing what has been increasingly obvious over recent days. That Toffeeweb has decided to tip over too far to supporting the ’no’ cause.

Everything has become a conspiracy. The players supporting Kirkby is "propaganda" (you don’t think Cahill or Arteta might have minds of their own?). Transfer bids are merely attempts to boost the ’yes’ vote (you don’t think perhaps that Everton, perhaps through Robert Earl, have acquired some more funds?). No, it’s clearly all conspiracy and propaganda.

I love Toffeeweb, and I am hoping that this is just a temporary aberration due to the passions of the Kirkby debate. But guys, the bias has been far too obvious, and has not lived up to the openness and balance you have historically displayed.

Little F: I agree. As the disclaimers point out, though, reader Comments are published immediately and are not usually moderated or vetted unless we receive a report of abuse which we try to act on as soon as possible. There are hundreds being posted a day right now so its impossible to moderate them all; we rely on the community to police itself in that regard using that "report abusive content" link.

Where the definition of "abusive" is concerned with regard to the Comments facility, it's currently being limited to abuse towards other posters on the site — although overtly libelous content is often being removed if reported. If enough people complain, however, we might be forced to consider widening the criteria.

Little F,

Well said sir.

Nasty and(completely)unfounded character assassinations have no place in this or any other debate.

I should be clear - I commend Toffeeweb for their ’open access’ policy, and wouldn’t want to see it changed. My complaint is with the clear bias on the so-called ’news’ front page and items (e.g the rumour mill), and greater the prominence on this page given to anti-Kirkby views.

I thought the same about toffeeweb, used to read it because of the links to media everton articles and always thought "negative bastards"

Sorry Lyndon, still think you guys are ’half empty’ no matter what the given situation you always seem to have negative outlooks.

I’ve starting posting here as I want to be someone who tried to say "no, youre wrong, its not that bad and this is not a fair balanced view point"

Of course, something things are negative, but largely I think we are going forwards with a great manager and a board who give him all the money we possibly have.

I know lots of Evertonians feel like this about toffeeweb - its always a negative view point on everything - seemingly.

Pat "Domingo", do you actually read WSAG’s website? All the lead articles are in support of the NO vote.

Pot kettle sir.

Neil P: "My complaint is with the clear bias on the so-called ?news? front page and items (e.g the rumour mill), and greater the prominence on this page given to anti-Kirkby views."

Point taken there, Neil, and Michael and I tend to take differing stances on that one in that I tend to prefer the front page news editorial to be more neutral. Ironically, though, we flip-flopped today, with Michael commenting ? probably rightly ? that my use of the word "propaganda" in a news item today probably went a little too far... But then he insinuated more or less the same as I did in the Fernandes Rumour Mill story, so go figure....

John C: "I know lots of Evertonians feel like this about ToffeeWeb - it?s always a negative view point on everything - seemingly."

We just come at things from a different perspective and with a more cynical eye, John. It may look as though we do it just to be bloody-minded, but we honestly just call it how we see it and I think the times where we are positive often get ignored. If we comes across negative, then so be it. We have no obligation to be neutral or present things in the best possible light just so people can feel good about things ? as the past couple of weeks have demonstrated, even given the massive improvement in our fortunes on the pitch under Moyes, not everything is positive around the club at the moment or has been for a long time ? but we do provide two thriving forums (articles and the mail bag) for you, the reader, to redress the balance.

Pat, there is nothing new, fresh or enlightening in your submission whatsoever. IMO it is little more than a semi articulate rant because a vast amount of people have an outspoken opinion that varies wildly from that of your own and you don’t seem able to deal with this. You have your opinion, which you are fully entitled to...the supposition that Kirkby would somehow allow us to ’challenge for honours’ loses you all credibility in my eyes the instant I read it though. You see there are two sides to this coin and each man has his own beliefs. You think that people who have a boundary issue are mad. I agree with you. I haven’t read anything more ridiculous than a *possible* extra £10m per season leading us to a challenge for ’honours’ though...it’s crackpot speak. Just my opinion but I think you are lacking a large dose of reality and a smidgen of common sense!! Each to their own though. Make no mistake about one thing...this is THE best, most professional, Everton site on the net. Whether you agree with all reader submissions or not is irrelevant, the guys do a tremendous job.

Pat do you not feel a little foolish defending a load of its and buts if its so good why has honest Bill(I wish) given all the facts like the true cost including an estimate of the overspend that we are liable for if I had concrete proof that it was best for Everton I would change my vote but nothing so far convinces me sadly both sides and the keep it in the city have let themselves and us down I am sorry but I just can not see how if you have studied it you can be so confident I wish I could

Lyndon, I don’t care that you guys are biased toward the no vote, it is your site, your opinion, you don’t block others from stating their opinions of why they will vote "yes" to the move. But while we are on a complaint entry, I do have a problem with some of the ways that the people who are voting Yes are being described. Tony Marsh is the worst but definitely not alone, calling anyone considering the move to Kirkby a traitor or a scab, and the way Kirkby is described and the residents within is just unacceptable. There are many fine Evertonians living in Kirkby or who are form Kirkby, my family included. This is the type of thing that should be eliminated. The same thing that Marsh says about Kirkby is said about Liverpool in general by the rest of the country, for instance, people saying when you go to Liverpool better watch your hubcaps. That’s all I have to say.

Off topic Lyndon, you told me last week to hold off voting as bestway/lcc were giving info on the loop? monday this was due?

just wondering (genuinely) if you heard anything more about this information and would it be forthcoming soon? I still havent posted my vote, I still want to be convinced, I’d really like to be convinced it’s viable - I just cant see it by myself... any news on it mate?

Little F - in most other arenas of life, I’d agree with you about abuse etc. But come on Blue, this is football. And not just football - it’s Evertonia. It’s a Blue hot kitchen and well, you know what they say about those who can’t stand the heat. Now I just happen to share 90pc of Tony Marsh’s views but I choose to express myself in a different way than he does (and vice versa). And whilst I sometimes wince at his acidity, I’d never expect him to dilute his barbs within the context of an Evertonian website. In fact, I actually think it’s a little bit "nanny state" that we even have to be warned about how jagged he can be at the top of his columns. Likewise, Tom Morris, I know where you’re coming from and in most walks of life, the workplace, amongst neigbours, in shops etc, I’d also agree with you. But "nasty" comments? "Nasty"? Tom, have you never heard "nasty" comments voiced at Goodison, or in its matchday pubs? We support a club - a damned unique one at that - which is steeped in an uncompromising gritty spirit of northern Englishess, most particularly of the Scouse variety. It’s not for the faint-hearted. I mean, this side of the Sky revolution, just how far down the road of "Soccer AM" new-fan gentrification do we want to go? Remember, the original spirit of the fanzine era was an attempt to let the nature of terrace culture spill over into new and emerging forms of late 80s media for fans who at the same time were sick and tired of being force-fed the "party line" by clubs but were also frustrated at being labelled hooligans. Dear me, calling the CEO names, hey? Whatever next? Someone will call van der Meyde "shandy" one of these days! Come on, chaps - it’s not the Sally Army we’re participating in here.

’Propaganda is neutrally defined as a systematic form of purposeful persuasion that attempts to influence the emotions, attitudes, opinions, and actions of specified target audiences for ideological, political or commercial purposes through the controlled transmission of one-sided messages (which may or may not be factual) via mass and direct media channels. A propaganda organization employs propagandists who engage in propagandism?the applied creation and distribution of such forms of persuasion."
R.A. Nelson, A Chronology and Glossary of Propaganda’ 1996.

How is toffeeweb one-sided Pat? Only the club is one-sided in this and note how the definition includes ’untruths’.

I think Bluekipper suits you. You stick to learning what ’redshite’ in Swahili, and the grown ups will debate the real issues - properly. Somebody has to because the media and the club won’t allow it. Just use a pseudonym and try and post some anti Kirkby comments in the blue room. Try and pick issue in there with Wyness’ embarrassing statements of the last couple of days then say who is th edisgrace.

Pat Dont give me any of that Bluekipper shite lad.I am embarressed to even log on to that site and read the crap they put out. Its the most arse licking website I have ever seen./>The people who put that site together with all there little pet nicknames for all the players wont say a bad word against the club in case the players dont show up for thier annual awards at the Olympia.We dont want to go to fucking Kirkby Pat and how do you know there is no other solution bar the Knowsley one?Bk tell you did he?Its all Bollocks complete and utter bollocks.Name me one big club in britain or Fucking Europe if you like that would move out of its city of origin with out exploring other options?
It wouldnt happen.Do you really think Liverpool would entertain Barcelona in the CL in fucking Roughwood. NO THEY WOULDNT DREAM OF IT.You stick to Lovey Dovey Blue Kipper and get nice and cosy with out having any thing contraversial to say .Sugar coated Bullshit doesnt work mate.Stick Kirkby up your arse.We are Everton from the great city of Liverpool not Everton from the Knowsley Industrial estate.Bluekipper my arse.

You certainly have a way of making a point Tony but it’s hard to argue with any of that in all honesty.

Tony what makes you think the club havn’t explored other options? we’ve been looking for a new site for a long time now theres only so many times you can be told "yeah that won’t work there" or "we can’t afford that one" Finally we found one we can do and probably just in the nick of time. Also stop slagging Kirkby off mate poeple live there.

Little F,the way the club is run by Wyness and Kenwright is laughable at best. I have never seen mis-management on this scale at any comparable business. They’ve even made a pig’s ear of the Vote, the most important decision-making process in the Club’s recent history. Indeed, this whole move thing is the culmination of years of mis-management by this regime and the one before it, that left us miles behind the competition, both in commercial and footballing terms. Now we’re scrambling to catch-up and have grasped the only helping hand out there (at the moment)- Tesco.

Pat Domingo....I realise that if you keep your earlier promise (to never darken our doorstep again) you will not be reading this reply. Nevertheless, I shall try to persuade you that some of your fellow Evertonians have genuine reservations about the predicted long-term benefits that will result from a move to Kirkby.

I am neither an anorak (don’t even know what it means), a member of KEIOC or a part-time Architect or Property Developer. I will admit to be headless (your words) because I reject the Kirkby proposition. I presume you are a Structural Engineer because you declare with some conviction that Goodison Park is falling down. What proof have got that this is true. If you do not have any proof then you are guilty of making propaganda with a lie.

In your third paragraph you make mention of the word democracy and ask if any no-voter is grateful for the opportunity to vote in an election which has only one candidate on the ballot paper. I cannot speak for any others who reject the move to Kirkby but I am insulted by the pretence that this sham is a form of democracy.

You claim that what you are peddling is your opinion (not propaganda) and then equate Kirkby with winning honours. I accept that is your opinion but it is also propaganda.

You ask us to suppose that if the Board, the Manager and the Players back Kirkby then that must mean that Kirkby is right for the Club. I simply ask what if the Board, the Manager and the Players are wrong? Can you accept that this might be true? One of my objections is that the Board should have simply presented us with their fully-costed (confirmed by an independent source) and clearly stated vision for Kirkby without involving the Manager and Players.

The Manager is employed by the Club to coach the Players and the Players are employed to play football. They might have opinions about Kirkby that are positive but they should not be expressing such opinions in the official pre-election brochure. Statistically, it is unusual for all members of a particular sample to have the same opinion....like tossing a coin seven times are getting seven heads.....not impossible but improbable. Is it possible that the players not included had less positive opinions? I don’t know.

You say that if we don’t accept the Tesco proposal then we don’t deserve help. That is your opinion. You are trying to imply that by refusing the Tesco deal no other comparable deal will ever materialise and that will be the voters fault for making use of the democracy provided by the Club. You cannot have it both ways; democracy sometimes produces results not favourable to the ruling party.

Why should it be left to KEIOC to find a rich investor to build us a Stadium and also invest in the Club? Surely, that is the job of the Board of Directors not the fans. In fact,if the vote goes against the Board that is exactly what they will have to do....bearing in mind the fact that there is a rumour going round that Goodison Park is falling down.

From my perception of those voting no, they are doing so for a variety of reasons;

For example, they might think

1. the location is wrong,

2. the proposed Stadium is being constructed for approximately one-third the going rate for a modern, new-build stadium and is therefore likely to be of poor quality.

3. there is no guarantee of long-term attendance increase and therefore increased revenue leading to the promised additional team-building cash

4. that it is foolish to accept the figures presented in the brochure because they lack detail and any sort of proof that they are accurate

5. that they are being panicked into a move that they genuinely think does not feel right.

The Board must have known that there was the possibility that many people would find fault with their proposals. Neither you nor they can complain if the vote goes against Kirkby. After all that is what democracy (even this false version of it)sometimes produces....unexpected results.

D. I havent got a problem with Kirkby or it residents.I bevied there for years with pals of mine who still live there.The Woody Johnny Todd,Bennighans etc.I just dont want Everton to move to a retail park out there thats all.
Kirkby or its resident aint the problem.Its our skint chairman that is.

A retail park? Why’s that a derogatory statement, Tony? No offence to the people of Walton and Everton but the place is a hole. Look at the stats on the site the other day about how impoverished it is. I wouldn’t want to ’entertain’ Barcelona in the CL in Anfield OR Walton. That’s why there’s no partners springing up to stick a hotel in with a Goodison redevelopment, no one wants to be there, especially with the city centre so close.

The only factor that would make me want to stay at Goodison is the realisation that if Everton do leave, Walton would be buggered.

So Cahill comes out and says he supports the move and it’s called propoganda. Duncan comes out and says he’s against the move, and there is no mention of propoganda at all. Now that my friends is hypocritical on your part. And Tony, you have slated the people of Kirkby on numerous occasions, lets post some of your previous comments shall we:

"It wont be a pleasant experience Paul watching football in a one horse town called Kirkby mate but a lot of our fans will vote for it anyway.Some of them have never been there and some of them dont even know where it is"
"Kirkby is a dump."
"God bless Ya Barksy lad he loves a trier you know.Hope you get the chance to stay in this Wonderfull
place one day.Watch out for the rear gunners on the milk floats .They shoot on sight."

Right Tony, those were all compliments of Kirkby weren’t they. Ya see, everything you say gets archived here, so stop trying to bitch out of the comments you have made over and over again.

Mr. Tony Marsh, there is no reasoning with you. I respect your passion, but you verge on the intolerant. It’s all so parochial. How many times do we all have to be reminded that when Everton moved to Goodison, it was out of the City of Liverpool? IYKYH anyone???

Ooops, there I go again, trying to convince people of my opinion.

Whichever the decision, and yes, I hope it is a yes vote, I’ll go with it. I support EFC, not the stadium or the city, and have known for a very long time that I do not share the views of many of my fellow fans.

Personally, I think this site dumps on all the other independent websites. I don’t have to agree with all my fellow fans, but I find the ability to read others opinions of great value. Knowing this, I find it peculiar that BK opened this decision to a vote. I think he felt it was the right thing to do which is fair enough. Although it must be clear to all, that he wants the move, so it will be interesting to see what happens if the vote is a no.

Anyways, would have been nice to have had the spending kitty a few months back... Yakubu? hmmmm, are we bidding for Gudjohnsen? I wonder if we should have bought Nugent for 6Million...

Sorry, that was a different matter entirely. Where was I? Thats right. All those in favour of staying should set up their own club [as I’ve said many times before] a bit like Liverpool FC did when we vacated Anfield. Real Everton anyone?

Pat, if you dont understand articulate debate, keep to the kids sites mate,you know it makes sense.

Lyndon, thanks for your fair and honest reponse to my post on the ’bias’ on the front news page. Of course today’s Dunc’s "resounding no" story is exactly what I don’t think you should do!

However, you guys have passionate opinions and quite properly so. Instead of biasing the news, why don’t you each (you, Michael, Colm) write proper editiorials stating your views? It’s your site (and still a fantastic one), and it would be quite fair for you to feature links to these on your news page. Just wondered.

By the way, I voted a "resounding yes". Kirkby is still an opportunity to take our club forward that we will very much regret passing up on.

COYB today!

Pat, well said, I couldn’t agree with you more!

David B, the difference is this: Big Dunc, KEIOC or others haven’t been invited to express their views by way of a pamphlet also inserted into the ballot literature sent out. I personally feel that the players and manager’s views should have been left out of this whole sorry charade in the interests of fairness and balance. I think it fucking stinks in all honesty and Bully Beef should get his coat and the pap he has served us up in the form of the ’peoples club stadium’ and leave. If he thinks he can come down here and throw his weight around he is in for a rude awakening

Barks why dont you stick to watching American sports mate.Its easy for you to except then when a team up sticks and moves to another City/state.Its not like that over here we are not a franchise that can be shifted around the country like you Yanks like do with your Football teams>Also why are you trying to credit me with your Scouse Hub cap jibes.I have never once intimated that the people of Kirkby are thiefs you twat.Just goes to show how really out of touch you are.No wonder you are voting yes.You dont have a clue about this city or it people.Making flippant remarks and calling Scousers thieves isnt
on lad.Its not the done thing.Kirkby people are sound in my book its the place that isnt right for EFC.How hard is that to understand

It’s a sad day when we’re all fighting each other like this, it really is.

People will have different views on the topic, without doubt. I for one enjoy reading the biased ’no’ opinions on here because it gives a balance to the debate that the club themselves aren’t giving.

Fuck’s sake though, let people say what they think, disagree by all means but let’s not make it personal.

I can’t vote but if I could I’d be slightly inclined on the yes side, despite agreeing with a lot of what Tony, Lyndon etc say. My ideal would be an option to hold fire until more options within the city could be entertained but if this is as good as it gets, it beats staying at GP.

Gareth your right this voting nonesense is turning Blue against Blue but this issue has got people genuinely worried.One of the main concerna a lot of the no
camp have is the mistrust they have in Wyness and Kenwright.On past form who can blame them.The sorrry state our club finds its self in at present is down to one man BK.He scuppered our best chance of being a top side when he allowed the Kings Dock deal to fall through while lying to the fans that all was fine.Why trust him now?

I suppose no one will want to comment on Sir Terry Leahy’s open letter then?

By way of balance please - a link to Terry Leahy’s open letter to Evertonians on the Toffeeweb news page. Without any snide comments.

I urge all Evertonians to read it. It puts the case for Kirkby better than any I have seen. It reveals clearly the economic problems of all other discussed options. And it shows doubters that Terry is indeed - whilst his first loyalty is to Tesco - also a genuine Evertonian.

But, anyway, read it - and I look forward to hearing the reactions!

Oh fuck off Tony, you really must be one of the most ignorant and stupid people around. You can’t even understand that I was making a comparison between the idiotic things you say about Kirkby and the idiotic things people from the rest of the country say about Liverpool. The fact that you can’t comprehend that and think that I am calling Scousers thieves just shows your level of intellect should eliminate you from being able to make any decisiion on the clubs future. You said you never put down Kirkby, so I gave just a couple of examples of what you have said in the past.

Also, is an Englishman who moves to Spain a Spaniard? Is an Englishman who works in Russia a Russian? If you were to have to relocate next week to Ireland for work would you suddenly become Irish? No. So why do you call me a yank? Funnily my wife and I were talking it over last night and we just made the decision to move back to England. So soon you will not be albe to resort to that little jibe you sad, sad little man.

Sometimes you cannot be bothered to visit toffeeweb because you know there will be negativity and cynicism, however 9 times out of 10 you do visit because it is the best everton site out there and provides a realistic view of all things blue, which sometimes we don’t like to admit.

Yes to Kirkby.

I’d like to think reasoned folks can take from the debate what they will, and form their own opinion on the matter. That’s why I like TW’s ’loose’ moderation. All sides have an equal platform, so what’s the problem here people? Can we stop the bickering.

Present your view, sure. No matter how extreme that may be. Just ’cause you say it don’t mean I have agree, but let’s stop the insults and the name-calling... btw, we won today!

Pat,Toffeeweb is where the big lads play.Why don’t you skip back off to bluekipper,if you can’t take debate.