Yes, it’s called being able to think for yourself. It’s called not being suckered in by the relentless spin being issued by Kenwright and cohorts. It’s called being apalled by propaganda Goebbels would have thought over the top. It’s called seeing beyond the short term and having the long term interests of Everton Football Club at heart. I could go on but I don’t think you’d get it anyway!

I?m surprised Sir Terry?s thoughts have not been published sooner. His words are quite compelling aren’t they!

The pronouncement of a committed, lifelong supporter - and also the consummate business success who is driving the overall £400m Kirkby plan - surely carries weight here, especially when he purports to explain how it is that ?everyone wins?. However, I wonder if the somewhat belated publication of his viewpoint is an indication perhaps that ?da management? are anxious the vote could be running against them?

Nevertheless, those in the ?No? camp will need to look carefully at what Sir Terry has to say. If they are going to be able to sustain their argument against the move they will need to both address and refute (if they can) what he has to say.

Ding, ding ?Seconds out!?

Derek I have just read the letter from Terry Leahy and fail to see why you find the proposal to move any more concrete because of it. Mr Leahy provides no more information that that with which we have already been provided so far. An aspect which I question in his statement is that he suggests that such decisions should be based on the head and not the heart but does nothing to facilitate this.

Furthermore, this is not a decision which I would make on trust - if as a fan I am to be involved in the process I need information not emotion and trust.

Well said Paul.
All the sheep with no brains are unfortunately falling for this stuff.
Sir Terry is first and foremost in charge of Tesco and a close advisor to the BOARD!!!
As the leading protagonist in the move to Kirby do you expect him to talk up other options.
FACT - nobody has yet looked at the viability of the loop in the detail that they have Kirby and after 18 months the Chairman CEO and head of Tesco’s are still coming up with different numbers and these are the people the sheep want to trust the future of EFC to!!!

Derek why didnt Mr Terry Everton
Tesco jump in with £30 million when kings Dock went tits up?nothing in it for them you see and thats what this is all about.
Knowsley get new infrastructure
Tescos get new Hyper markets and we get a cheap new ground in a place thats not suitable.I hope they are making provisions for capacity reducement as well as increased capacity because filling the Tesco dome will be a big ask.Nothing new in the article mate and still very very vague on whats

Tony Marsh :

You seem to think it’s wrong that other organisations make a profit out of our development?

Well get real mate, unless we pay for it ourselves there has to be an upside to the company who funds it.

Get real.

A sheep I am not, why do the ’No note camp’ have to revert to incorrect personal insults? Proof they have no valid argument left I guess. Accordingly, I’ll not waste time on further correspondence other than to advise all to actually carefully read and absorb the clear and key detail laid out in Terry’s Open Letter and make their own mind up based on that and all other ’informed’ material available (i.e. ignoring scare tactics of either side). For me, surely Sir Terry Leahy explaining how Everton is around an extra 100 mill better off under the Kirkby scheme is key!
Let’s bring Everton into the modern era through the Kirkby Proposal and in so doing better enable us to be successful again as a consequence, for generations of Evertonians both present and future.

Jay Harris,

"All the sheep with no brains..." ?

Thank god we’ve got intelligent, fair-minded people like you to keep this debate from descending into childish name-calling.

Jesus wept.

John Charles of course I understand buisness deals but still why didnt Tesco bail us out of the Kings Dock mess at the time? We could of offered Goodison as a down payment for them to build a Super market on.
The truth is there are brown envelopes flying around with councillors ,tesco Execs,Theatre
impressarios,CEOs of football clubs all involved there has to be..Wyness has his grubby mitts all over this deal and once we are railroaded in to the move the truth will come out about who made what from whom.It stinks./>Cant you see that John?

I’ve come to the belief that the board have made an error by allowing the fans to have a vote on this issue. There’s everything to lose and nothing to gain from a ’no’ vote as far as I can see and the tactics deployed from both sides have become desperate.

I haven’t yet decided how to vote, but have no doubt that both sides have strong arguments. One factor which may influence me (and it is an honourable position to take, though others may hurl abuse at me) is that I absolutely HATE the way football is today - or at least the Premiership. A ’no’ vote would in some small way register that feeling.
By the way, I was born and brought up in Kirkby, and would agree that people there are as scouse as they come. As far as I’m concerned, I would feel equally sick if we planted a Reebok stadium well within the City boundaries.

Tony Marsh

Do you not understand what John Charles is saying, this deal has to stack up for all parties Tesco is not a charitable trust that can bail out an ailing football club. You make the comment and I use your words "The truth is there are brown envelopes flying around with councillors ,tesco Execs,Theatre
impressarios,CEOs of football clubs all involved there has to be"
Tell us all were do you get your evidence from? more importantly tell the police. If you cannot produce evidence then shut up also If you cannot understand why Tesco did not assist Everton on the Kings dock its time to learn simple basics of business and then shut up.

Tony - I don’t think you can substantiate the ’brown envelope’ scenario mate. I am a No voter, but I would rather you argued your case with reasoned argument and not supposition. (although I also believe that there are machinations within this deal of which the fans are not aware.)

Derek, if you wish to believe that the ’information’ contained in Terry Leahy’s letter is sufficient for you on which to base your vote then fair enough. For me it is not, and I do feel that had we not signed an exclusivity agreement that there would be other benefactors out there wishing to partner with EFC on a deal - however, that was not to be due to the way this has been managed.

I would still vote No - if only in protest to the way in which EFC have approached the whole thing.

Sean Rothwell.....you and the other Leahy groupies are starting to sound as if you have never heard the following sayings (or similar);

"there is no such thing as a free lunch"

"beware Greeks bearing gifts"

"what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but suffers the loss of his own soul?"

Are you not even the slightest bit suspicious as to why a hard-nosed businessman fronting one of the most ruthless retail giants on earth is offering Everton Football Club a sweetener of £100million to move its base to Kirkby? Presumably his shareholders are happy for such largesse to be distributed to strangers. Why?

It should not be too hard for Tesco to inveigle their way into the good books of K.B.C. (by offering them some treats) without finding it necessary to bring along excess baggage such as Everton F.C. In what particular way does the presence of Everton in the package (at a cost to Tesco of £100m.) benefit Tesco in their negotiating stance with Knowsley Borough Council? Please explain, or better still get your mate Terry to explain, why Tesco need Everton in this deal.

Re Brian Finnigan,

No, I’m not suspicious about why Mr Leahy wants Everton to move to Kirkby. It’s because he wants a Tesco there. He makes it very clear in his letter that Tesco will benefit hugely from this scheme. But he, and I, also believe that Everton will benefit hugely from it.
Surely no company on the planet would help any football team build a stadium unless there was something in it for them?
Get this, WE CANNOT AFFORD A STADIUM WITHOUT A COMMERCIAL PARTNER. Period. And if we need a commercial partner we couldn’t find a much bigger or more successful one than Tesco.
Oh and another thing I’ve been meaning to ask; why do and your naysaying brethren feel you have the right to know every single detail of the Club’s finances and negotiations? Unless your a shareholder (and I’ll assume most are not) it has nothing to do with you.

Sean Rothwell.....I have no interest in the state of Evertons finances.....I can even see what is in the deal for Everton....what I cannot see is what is in it for Tesco. If Everton were not in the deal Tesco would be £100m. better off yet they have chosen to include Everton in the scheme. Why?

It really does worry me that this decision has been put in the hands of people who can’t even grasp what the word investment means. When you invest in something you put your money into it with the purpose being to make you more money in the long run. Tesco are investing in Everton by helping us get this stadium. The stadium is part of a proposal for the redevelopment of the area, which will include a Tescos. He is putting up the money for us, which we need, so that he can get the store that he wants, which in the end will make him far more money than the amount he is giving us. That is how investment works, one side gives money in the hopes that it will benefit them in the long run. We need that money to get the stadium, and will own the stadium, which will be in a completely redeveloped and regenerated Kirkby Town Center, not a retail park. People keep saying we should move closer to the City Center, but this is exactly what we will be doing. Please please try to understand this, get a dictionary or something.

Don’t worry about Tony Marsh. His rantings are completely irrelevant and so beautifully absurd that he is probably a fabrication, an editorial underling aimed at derailing rational thought. If he were real he would almost certainly be your archetypal armchair communist - citing Marx at every opportunity to justify the noble cause, whilst staunchly refusing to queue up for subsidised toilet paper at the local (and painfully empty) corner shop...
Who would he blame then eh?

Well said David Barks.
This is exactly why I think the Club should seize this opportunity and should not have risked involving the fans. Too many fans are only concerned that they will not be able to drink in the Winslow or on County Road before the match. The vast majority of fans - and I include myself - have no idea what the financial repercussions of this move are. Many don’t care. However, the board does know the state of play and knows how beneficial the move will be to the Club.

Although terribly sad to be moving from Goodison and to a lesser extent Liverpool City boundaries, at last someone has articulated the real benefits of moving to Kirkby alongside Tesco.

Remember that Leahy is a Director of a FTSE 100 company, a publicly quoted company, and as such is bound to express the truth when discussing financial matters relating to Tesco PLC in public. His well articulated and IMO truthful summary of the proposed move has swayed my vote.

This indeed could be a "deal of the century". It is a pity Wyness could not have articulated the argument so well.

I just don’t understand why people can’t grasp how it will benefit Tescos. Firstly, the stadium adds a great deal of revenue to the surrounding businesses, which in this case would include Tescos. Also, they have said that this stadium would also be used for other purposes, such as concerts, which brings even more people to the area spending their money in the local hotels and shops. That is why Knowsley and Tescos are so willing to help us with the finances. They know how much money this will make them. The stadium is an integral part of the overall proposed redevelopment, as it stands to generate a great deal of wealth for the area, so spending the money now will pay off hugely for them in the long term. And as for us, we will have a state of the art stadium in a newly redeveloped booming area, only 4 miles from our historic home of Goodison Park, and that extremely precious financial assistance that is required before we can even think about a new stadium.

David Barks....thank you for explaining the meaning of the word investment. Does your explanation mean that K.B.C. would not have sanctioned the work that Tesco wishes to do in Kirkby if Everton had not been included in the package? Why, in your opinion or estimate, is having the Everton stadium in their new town centre so attractive to Knowsley Borough Council? Why did they not just avoid the hassle that might accompany a football stadium and just grant Tesco free rein anyway?

Brian, read the comments I just made above yours.

Brian, Tesco moving to Kirkby would mean small term redevelopment and possible risk to local business. Tesco and Everton moving to Kirkby equals large scale redevelopment and more people in the area, thus minimising any adverse effects on local business and making more revenue for the area as a whole. Everyone’s a winner.

What is in it for Tesco. Ok lets think about this,

1. They get to build a big supermarket in Kirkby on a site that they wouldn’t normally get.

2. Every other Saturday afternoon 50,000 football fans go past said supermarket on their way to and from a football match. If 10% of those fans stop to buy a packet of fags, or a chocolate bar or whatever, say average spend of £2 thats an extra £10000 for the day.

3. Tesco make Everton richer, Everton fans are grateful. How many Everton fans will shop in Sainsbury’s, Morrisons etc.

4. Concerts held in the new stadium. see point 2.

5. News coverage of the deal if it ever comes to fruition would help to raise the profile of Tesco nationwide and thus increase sales.

I could go on.

Oh, and leaving Everton out would not leave them £100m better off. Because they would not have the support of Knowsley Council and therefore their costs would be much, much higher.



People. Some of you out there have made your minds up and will not listen to anything anyone else says. I could provide evidence to show that an investor had provided the funding to completely pay for a £500m stadium on the Loop and some of the pro-kirkby lobby would slate it.(I can’t by the way.) Equally I could provide evidence that Kirkby really is the only worthwhile move and some of the no lobby would call me a brain dead sheep or something. I find this really sad. Some Evertonians are really trying to make an informed decision on this. Whilst some are using it to force feed their own views down everyone elses necks. This isn’t the time for slanging matches, libellous comments, and certainly not for assumptions based on nothing more tahn it is what you want to believe.

It has been said before but I will say it anyway. GROW UP.

Everton is the peoples club and we are ALL the people.

I have followed the debates on this website for a long time sometimes agreeing sometimes shouting at my monitor in frustration without ever feeling the need to join in.I have followed Everton all my life(40 years old now)and while i was not born in Liverpool my Mum and Dad are both scousers.I am only able to attend a few time a season now but am luckily able to vote as i am a member of Evertonia.The current stadium debate however has saddened me deeply as i see the Everton family name calling and abusing each other and not appreciating why we are special.This wonderful club of ours that was the first in so many things is yet again making history.We are allowing a binding vote by fans to determine the future of our club.We should be shouting this fact from the rooftops.I for one am unhappy we are in a position where we will almost certainly be leaving Goodison,my childhood field of dreams,but we have a say and how many fans of any other club in the world can say that.I will not in this post go into which way i am voting but please argue debate fight for your beliefs but remember we are all Evertonians who believe passionately that our club is the only club and whatever the outcome of the vote we must unite behind the decision.

David, Sean and others....thank you for the explanations. One last question.....why do Everton have to pay anything into the scheme if their participation is so crucial to the success of the whole venture? Why don’t Tesco pay Everton’s £50million(?) as well; as a sign of their gratitude for our helping to expedite their plans for the conquest of Kirkby?

Because, Brian, this is a deal, not a donation.

IF I want or need advice I always ask a unbiased person some one with nothing to gain or for that matter lose,So please forgive me for being sceptical this deal benefits Tesco fair enough as there is no such thing as a free lunch ect what worries me is why if its so good are we getting swamped with endorsements from players ect and Sir Terrys Evertonian back ground surely if its good enough it will stand on its own with out this crap I don’t recall all this over the top salesmans pitch when it was the dock which I would have voted yes to instead of putting up Cahill,Arteta ect to persuade us now they are both talented players but they will move on one day while we cant so why should we heed what they say infact if they are so concerned perhaps they would like to contribute to the cost,As for Sir Terry I think its a insult to our intelligence that some how because of his love of Everton this deal has been made was any one on their board a Bolton fan when that horrible ground was planned. Still no direct answers to the basic questions are made like first it was free then it was mimimal now its £50 million plus any overspend so to my way of thinking we are being sold short we are worth a better ground than the pathetic impression that has been shown so thanks Terry but I will wait for a better offer which will come if only people give it a chance even a no vote now dose not mean Tesco wont come back with a better offer and no insult for the people of Kirkby almost any where is better than the present offer

Because they have a limit. Not really a difficult concept. Should we not be glad they are offering what they are.

If Kirkby does turn out to be the best option open to us wouldn’t it be a shame that Evertons own supporters made Tesco pull out leaving the board to sell off all our best players in order to maintain a crumbling Goodison while we wait for another investor to come along. Who, if he is an Everton fan is probably reading this, thinking "If that’s the way they respond to Terry there is no way I’m going to put my money up."

But thats okay as long as we don’t sell out to Tesco’s. Am I right?

Was not able to make the game today and was wondering what was the ganeral feeling among fans as to the move pro or anti Kirby

There was a plane flying around with a banner from KEIOC with vote no. A couple of lads with a large banner outside saying much the same. Inside the ground absolutly nothing no chanting about no to Kirkby no banners etc. The discussions I had with other fans was along the lines that as soon as this vote is over the better. The majority unlike most who poast on this site were yes voters.

Sir Terry’s letter is a real gem. We get a £150m stadium for £35m, no further argument needed.

We should just thank our lucky stars that this giant of British industry is a lifelong Blue. I respect the feelings of KEIOC supporters, but it’s time they smelled the coffee and got behind the only game in town.

Great game today, and after a summer of angsting over the Kirby move, it was great to get back to some football; albeit with a ’restricted’ view.
So, painfull, but I think it’s time to vote ’Yes’ - Kirby is the best deal in town and the only thing in sight.
Any alternatives to this will have to come up with a rock solid plan because I’d rather have Kirby than nothing.
The board, we, will get a 50,000 stadium which we’ll have to fill, and the only way to do that is with success on the pitch.

Time to vote ’Yes’.Leqahy’s righ - this is head over heart time.

Brian lets get one thing straight here mate.David Barks lives in the U.S.A and is so far off the radar he could be a U F O.Who gives a shit what Tesco or Knowsley council are offering.Who gives a shit what will benefit whom.Barks your physco babble regarding investment plans and regeneration of deprived ares of Merseyside is commendable but we dont give a fuck.What we the NO votes are saying is we dont want to go to fucking Kirkby.We the No VOTERS DONT GIVE A FLYING FUCK what Tescos make from the deal.We dont want in for many many reasons.We dont want a skint chairman pulling us out of Liverpool because he can not raise the funds to stay.Are you so thick as not to grasp this.Stick the Kirkby deal and stick Kenwright and Wyness Were the sun dont shine.You wet lettuce brigade havent got a clue about what makes Everton FC tick.
A new staduim on the cheap and you want us to sell our souls.Evertons fan base is in the heart of this city and its hard enough competing with LFC while we are still here.Please Barks regeneration of deprived areas and building motorways is the job of goverment.Not Football clubs.>Everton founder members of the football league and you think its ok to turn our backs on our city.What next Real Madrid moving to Benidorm.Learn about the people of this city you yes voters then you might understand why we object to this move.

And there I was hoping to take a step back from the whole stadium issue this weekend and just enjoy some football!

My first reaction? What intelligent, measured and compelling words from someone exhibiting real CEO-class experience... even if he does shoot down part of his argument at the end when he refers to "trust" regarding the current custodians of Everton FC!

After the PR disasters of the past week or so, it was nice to read an actual argument supporting the Kirkby Project in well-considered words rather than ill-conceived efforts to undermine a possible alternative at the "loop".

As compelling as Sir Terry?s words were, however, they don?t really change anything for me. He still needs Everton to get his grand retail park built. The stadium is still going to be outside Liverpool, in Kirkby, attached to a retail park, miles from the club?s roots.

Liverpool FC will still be able to claim there is now "one city, one club, one name" ? yes we do care what the Red Shite say; the only reason why we sang that we didn?t care is because we didn?t need to care because we used to be superior.

Evenings like the one that Duncan Ferguson describes of a "sea of blue and white" heading into Liverpool city centre down a route trodden by jubilant Evertonians for generations for a night of celebration won?t quite have the same feeling either in a town that?s not "Everton's" city or as fans file away to the park-and-ride or queue at the train station.

Emotion and nostalgia ? mystifying in their importance to some but absolutely central to their Evertonian identity for others ? aside, we still won?t have been given a real alternative to shipping out to Kirkby. Now that one has emerged, it?s still not being given due consideration.

Sir Terry says: "Clearly it?s possible to lift the stadium design for Kirkby (or one like it) and drop it onto Goodison or the loop site ? and in my heart as a fan, it looks nice. But unless the club is offered a concrete proposal to own a £150 million stadium for around £35 million investment by Everton, and delivered by 2010 / 11 then I?m afraid it is not a realistic option."

(Glossing over the facts that Everton's £50m contribution is now back down to £35m and that 2010/11 remains highly optimistic...) Until it?s been confirmed to me that the Bestway proposal is not a viable, similar or better one than that on offer in Kirkby, I couldn't bring myself to support relocating the club to Knowsley. I would rather that Sir Terry ? as a fan and clearly the one leading this merry dance ? allow a period of grace after any "yes" vote ? if that's the way it turns out ? for the club to FULLY exhaust the "loop" option.

If not, it merely looks as though the fans are being railroaded into a move that is a great win for all the vested retail/leisure interests connected to the Boardroom ? Sir Terry and Tesco, Robert Earl, and Philip Green ? but merely a "good" win for Everton FC.

I want the final stadium solution to be a "fantastic" win for Everton and if that can?t be achieved with Kirkby but can either with another partner in another location or with proper investment at Board level then we can wait.

Forgive my literacy ignorance but what’s the quote?

"Methinks the lady doth protest too much"

Absolute bollocks from fatty, something far more professional (PR) from TL. Both saying the same thing. "Better be careful boys we could lose this Kirkby swizz".

Sad thing is the baa baas will swallow it hook line and sinker.

VOTE NO!!

Tony Marsh. You arrogant little P***k. "learn about the people of this city". Where do you think most of us come from. My family still live in Liverpool and if moving to Kirkby is the only way to make our club grow they will all vote yes. So don’t you dare claim that you are speaking for the people of Liverpool, and certainly don’t make out that you are better because you still live there.

Be honest with us all. If it was a choice between Kirkby or no Everton Football Club would you still vote no?

Tony Marsh, you are a pathetic individual and you my friend are not worthy of Everton. Just to let you know, since you might not have read what I wrote earlier, my wife and I just last night decided to move back to England next year, so I will soon be back on the "radar". Even still, you’ve said that you don’t even live in Liverpool, you live outside the city, so if the only people who are allowed to have an opinion on this matter have to be in the city, I guess you should shut your mouth right about now and walk away. My family own shares, they are season ticket holders, just because I am stuck in America right now makes me no less of an Evertonian as the next man. Brian was asking legitimate questions and we were answering them. Go to bed, get some sleep, you sound like a baby who needs a nap.

Tony Marsh.........you are a star.

Keep it up.

One more thing Tony. There’s a person over here who you reming me of, Rush Limbaugh. I don’t know if you know who he is, but if you don’t I’ll give a quick description. He’s a right wing radio commentator, extremely hateful, always speaks in generalities and lies, never admits when he is wrong, but instead goes onto personal attacks when confronted with facts that prove him wrong. He is very nationalistic and scared of any change or progress, and calls anyone who disagrees with him a "traitor". Sound familiar?

As Tony seems unable to answer my simple question can any of the hardcore NO voters do it for him?

Kirkby or the end of Everton. Would you still vote no? What about you Mr Collie?

Evidently many people have hardened their hearts and are simply not now prepared to listen to anything except that which accords with their own entrenched views ? regardless of how sensible and objective any dissenting voices might be.

It certainly doesn’t help things when comments are laced with insults. There is too much of that going on for a group of people who claim to support the ?People?s Club?. Grow up please!

People on both sides of the argument need to ’wake up and smell the coffee’. There is an important decision to be made, and while few will have thought about this yet, there will also soon be a post-decision situation to face up to. We will all then need to move forward together. The more insults are chucked around now, that harder that is going to be.

Whichever ’side’ loses this vote needs to respect the wishes of the majority, and the ’winners’ will need to be magnanimous and generous toward those among the losers who are big enough to face up to the situation that they have been outvoted.

Strange...not one hardcore no voter will answer my question.

Here you are saying that you will never move to Kirkby, but when asked directly if you would rather see the end of Everton football club you all go quiet.

Okay, what about the move at any cost brigade. If moving carried a 75% risk of Everton folding within 5 years would you still vote yes?

After reading all the posts on the matter I think we would be making a massive mistake by not moving to kirby.

Can’t speak for Tony, though I’m 100% confident he’s more than capable of speaking for himself.

Vote for Kirkby or the end of Everton? Is that what you truly believe?

Kirkby is all about providing a handsome pay off for Kenwright and his cohorts, plus a good deal for Tesco. It’s nothing whatsoever to do with the end (or future) of Everton.

Even if the current Everton FC Co. Ltd. went bust and into administration, which it won’t regardless of the failure of the Kirkby con, mark my words. Everton the Football Club will continue.

Getting into personal insults and all that stuff is not my style but please wake up and smell the coffee this is all about Kenwright feathering his nest, simple as that. He’s relying on tugging at the heart strings of decent people who’ll vote for this Kirkby nonsense.

More to the the point the end of Everton, as we know it, will begin when we move to a Reebok, Riverside replica type stadium in Kirkby.

Think about this would Celtic, Rangers or Liverpool entertain a deal like this? No chance the whole thing would be untenable to them. We are every bit as traditional and proud as any of the aforementioned clubs. Our problem is that we have a small time, little man, Ford Escort owner trying to run a Roller which he can’t afford but needs to sell the Roller, at a profit to keep his head above water.

What on earth has Kenwright achieved? Apart from some boyhood dream, as Chairman of one of the finest football clubs in the country he’s a failure. never forget he’s been involved in all of the balls ups over the last what 25 years, which have brought our great club to it’s knees. Kenwright will go the thing is will he go with a fat wallet after ruining the club or will he go without a profit but the club intact?

The club comes first and foremost every time, what a pity that so many people can’t see that they are being screwed good style.

Everton will never die, don’t be so naive, please.

Steve Pugh.....you have taken the scare to a higher level by suggesting that the choice is between Kirkby or the end of Everton. Faced with such a stark choice, the vote would have to be to save Everton.

However, that particular choice is not on the agenda. Even Wyness has said that a majority no vote would mean nothing more than an end to the Kirkby dialogue. If that happened, even the CEO has not had the nerve to suggest that would inevitably mean the end of Everton.

However, from the conversations that I have had here this evening it does seem more likely that the choice is not (Kirkby/end of Everton) but it is a choice of (Kirkby/end of Tesco in Kirkby). Quite frankly and honestly, that choice does not create any dilemma for me or thousands upon thousands of other Evertonians and that is why the no vote remains firm, and those voting no do so with a clear conscience.

Just as I thought, but thank you all for making it so clear. There is no longer a respectable intelligent or credible argument against Kirkby. There are abusive, sentimental, irrational, scaremongering rantings, but sadly no longer any of the well-argued objections which we read in the earlier part of the debate. Those objections have been answered. Yes they have been answered by somebody with a vested financial interest in the outcome. But looked at objectively and (for a moment) dispassionately Sir Terry is right, you know. Oh and for the record,Lyndon, I for one, don’t care what the red shite say. Never have, never will.

First Steve if that senario wae a fact not fiction and we had a trustworthy chairman and all other avenues were examined then yes any Everton is better than none but this is not the case be honest if it was the loop or no Everton what would the yes voters say,but the reason I’m writing is we all will vote for what we believe is the best option for Everton so why is there so much animosity Tony Marsh makes some valid points then shoots himself in the foot with a snide comment which only inflames the situation David Barks is another hes a long way from the situation so although I believe we all should get a vote I hope he has not what ever the outcome I hope that the result will end all this bickering not many people appear to be balanced in their views until I have sent mine in I am open to change if convinced too many yes voters seem as if its a affront to wait for more information from all camps I have three friends who like me have been going every game at home since the late fifties and yet none have a vote why surely we all should have one incidentally between the four of us its three nos to one yes but what ever the ratio I still believe guys like these deserve the vote and a funny thing despite having spent hours discussing it no one has felt the need to be abusive with the exception of a couple of kopites at the bar.

"What on earth has Kenwright achieved? ... never forget he?s been involved in all of the balls ups over the last what 25 years, which have brought our great club to it?s knees. Kenwright will go the thing is will he go with a fat wallet after ruining the club or will he go without a profit but the club intact?"

WHAT UTTER, UNMITTIGATED TOSH!

25 years ago was 1982. So, Kenwright was to ’blame’ for our 1984 FA Cup final win, 2 league championships and a European Cup Winners Cup Final win?! Come to think of it, I’m sure that bastard Kenwright started the riot on Heysel Stadium terraces.

And a as for a fat wallet? Didn’t he re-mortgage his home to wrest control from agent Johnson. Did you do the same Tom? No. I thought not!

Like I said, entrenched views, insults abound (both sides are guilty) and everyone is wearing blinkers.

I can’t wait for the ballot to be over and the result announced. But when that happens I’ll make sure I keep me tin hat on!

Tom,

I am not naive, believe me. In fact what I want is for people to stop arguing and see how rediculous this is becoming.

Everton will not die if it goes to Kirkby, nor will it die if it stays in Liverpool. What worries me is that we have a faction who are saying they will not move no matter what. So I asked the most extreme question. And you didn’t answer, because at the end of the day if it was a choice of Kirkby or Everton Football Club being wiped off the map any true fan would say okay we’ll go to Kirkby and make the most of it. Likewise if moving to Kirkby would definitely siganal the end of Everton nobody would support the move. So why are so many fans talking in extremes.


As for insults, supporting Tony Marsh with his insults is just the same as saying it yourself so don’t try and come over all innocent to me. I have read so many times that BK has turned away investors and kept it secret from us all. That is a load of Bull. How do I know this? Simple, if Mr X wanted to buy Everton he would let the National Media know, they would go and talk to Everton fans and it would be plastered all over here. And it hasn’t been. So why do investors not want to look at Everton? Is it the fans, the team, or is it the stadium? I don’t know the answer I’m afraid but there is a reason, and it isn’t BK.

As Everton fans right now we shouldn’t be arguing about a move to Kirkby or not. In fact I don’t even think we should be voting on a move to Kirkby. We should be asking the club to postpone the vote so that we, the people, can look at the loop proposal properly, look at the kirkby plans (not an artists impression) properly and make our minds up based on fact and not emotion. That is one thing I agree with Tesco Ted about, we must make this decision with head not heart. If I was to vote with Heart it would be a definite no because Everton should be in Everton, not Kirkby, not Walton, Everton. If I vote with my head, I know we’ve got to move, I know that enough supporters will remain loyal to the club to make it a success in Kirkby so if it is truly the only viable option so be it. If there are other viable options I need time to see them and study them.

If the only way of getting this time is to vote NO then we vote NO. But we do it together as a signal that we need time to investigate alternatives properly, and not as a fingers up to Kirkby.

The No voters really do seem to be blinded by foolish emotion. You must not be if you tuly want to enable Everton to be successful in the modern era. Tesco are a truly powerful force that can (and will with the Kirkby Project), while helping themselves, also help EFC GREATLY. We must take this opportunity. Nostalgia will not help us, please for the sake of Everton’s future do the right thing.
PS. Tony, surely you can be big enough to absorb the irrefutable cold hard business facts as to why Kings Dock did not make business sense for Tesco. Also, there was less controversy over the KD project because it fitted better with Everton nostalgia (’banks of the royal blue mersey’ etc.) Get real! Incidently, on a flipant (but true) point, Stockport County are the team nearest the River Mersey, how much good has it done them?? The entire Kirky project is a 400 million development. It will be major make no mistake and Everton FC will indeed grow mighty strong again if this project gets the green light. Lyndon, look at BIG PICTURE please...you are holding out vain hope re the Loop, it is truly farcical compared to what is on offer in Kirkby. Surely you can see you are allowing yourself to be influenced by caring too much what the red side say. Please put your political and emotional fears to one side and do the right thing. This opportunity should not be spurned. Doubters please accept that whilst you are no doubt passionate about Everton, the Board (through Sir Terry Leahy) have at last got something massive right! Time does matter, to have the chance to get back amongst the top of the league on and off the pitch, we simply must be allowed to take this opportunity!

Last post before I hit the pit. How many of you boys are club plants? Or Ian Ross? At one time I worked in the twisted downright lies world which is PR and recognize the style, and panic, which seems very apparent tonight. Fatty made a monster cock up, must have sent the pro PR boys into a spin, now we have a far more polished contribution from TL, but ultimately contrived from the same desperation.

First off the appointment of HK1 was an act of chance by an already impoverished board. As it happens it was a very fortunate, but wonderful, success but around that time Kenwright joined the board and since then has been fully involved in the mismanagement which has created our plight today.





Kenwright has not put a single penny into the club, I’ve put more in than him by buying my season tickets each year. All he did was to purchase shares from Johnson. Hint the usual idea of buying shares is to eventually sell them at a profit. Which is exactly what Kenwright is seeking to do. If he can stitch the club up with a crap shopping centre stadium already built he can sell his shares for more cash than he can at the moment. Who is going to be the winner?

Here’s a thought it won’t be our club or you and me, it will be Kenwright, bought his shares off PJ wriggled for a few years without making any tangible input to the club but sells them on on at a massive profit. Meantime our club is in a Reebok stadium replica, having sacrificed our proud tradition and history, after joining the long line of failed Lancashire clubs.

Tell me something Mr Ross? How on earth will moving to a concrete, shopping centre bunker in Kirkby bring us in more fans? More to the point why don’t you sell the club now, after all you have had excellent offers, haven’t you? The big snag with that is it’d leave Boys Pen Kenwright without a bag of cash.

Time to go but to any genuine fans venting their antipathy on people like Tony Marsh, please bear in mind Tony’s only wish is the best interests of our club. The same cannot be said for Kenwright, Wyness, Ross and co.

No voters, of course vote no if you must but really try to be mature and level headed if possible. Put aside incorrect conspiracy theories and wishful thinking and go with the facts available rather than any delusional hypothesis.
Lastly, if you really dislike Blue Bill so much, you should note that the Kirkby Project makes us a more attractive takeover proposition. Or would you rather Everton remain unattractive to investment so that Kenwright’s shares do not appreciate in value. As BK is the major shareholder his and the Clubs interests are aligned, if you care what is good for Everton, you really should wish for the value of Everton to appreciate and therefore vote Yes to Kirkby anyway.

DAVID BANKS If I hear you mention you and your family situation in America once more!!!!!......... If you want to be verbally abusive to fellow blues mate then accept the flack coming your way and stop whining on. Vote NO to Kirkby.

Jason - that’s obviously your real name (?)

Sadly I am mature and have worked for far too many years in the finance PR field. I know exactly what is going on, that’s guaranteed.

There are wealthy buyers for our club right now Ian, sorry Jason, I know that as fact, same as you do. The only benefactors from a concrete bunker in Kirkby are Kenwright and Leahy (Tesco). It certainly won’t be our proud club and it’s genuine fans.

Kenwright’s position is no conspiracy theory, it’s a fact of life. Some of us, probably not enough, know exactly what goes on in the murky world of buying and selling shares/companies/ football clubs..e.g. Everton.

This move is not about Everton ’dying’ if we do not move. It is above getting us on a more level playing field with the current top performing teams. Tom Collie, if you really are in the PR/football finance field surely you can counter Sir Terry Leahy’s compelling case with something more convincing than what seems to me to be a largely personal and childish diatribe from you so far? Remember, emotion should not be the key driver on making the right choice. Surely a personal dislike for Bill Kenwright and fellow Evertonians whose opinions differ from your own should not be the basis on which one should vote, if the future success of EFC is indeed the uppermost priority. Success not the field not location give or take a few miles is the main driver remember.

Steve, Tony brought it up not me. And how the hell am I the one being verbally abusive? The other people on here were having a reasoned discussion about the details of the move, then Tony comes on here and says I have no idea what I’m talking about because I currently live in America. But since you didn’t take the time to go back and read the whole story here’s what he started with:
"Brian lets get one thing straight here mate.David Barks lives in the U.S.A and is so far off the radar he could be a U F O."

"You wet lettuce brigade havent got a clue about what makes Everton FC tick." So if you’re sick of hearing about how I live in the U.S. then have it out with Tony, he’s the one who’s obsessed with it.

I really don’t want to drive a wedge between Evertonians who reside within or outside Liverpool but I cannot help but notice that most pro Kirkby advocates do not live in Liverpool. Which means you don’t have to suffer the daily torment of listening to these arrogant cock sucking red twats whether your in work or in the pub or whatever. Every day they (& the local media) tell us that ’Rafa’ (like they all know him personally) is a tactical genius & going 3-0 down in a champions league final or getting twatted by West Ham only to beat them on pens was all actually tactical brilliance. It’s hard enough being an Evertonian while we’re still in Liverpool, fuck knows how bad it will get if God forbid we move to Kirkby.

Tom Collie : "

There are wealthy buyers for our club right now.....I know that as fact"

If I had a vote I would actually be a ’NO’ man myself Tom, but im not sure if quotes such as these are helping our cause.

If true though, could you be so kind as to divulge theses buyers names?

A good piece of dialogue by Terry Leahy , a far better piece of PR than Wyness’s attempt and some compelling arguments ,I’m still not pro Kirkby because of the exclusivity agreement and the ’ no plan B ’ statement . BUT , I can honestly see the logic in moving . Incidently , all this cash in brown envelopes talk , I’ve never heared one Evertonian complain about Harry Catterick’s alleged methods in signing some Everton legends or John Moore’s financial clout dragging the Blues out of the doldrums of the 1950’s and his ownership of a football pools company and the mutual benefits therein . Oh by the way , the club is now so much in trouble that we’ve got the best team we’ve had for years and we’re getting better !! Quick , sack everyone , and sell Mickey Arteta to Liverpool !!

Critcism from any redshites should be water off a ducks back to any self respecting Blue. It is only the petty nature of the pinkies that seek to wind us up over what L postcode we play at. This moves gives us a chance at being in a far healthier state off the pitch than them, it is natural that we can then over relatively short time overcome them regularly on the pitch too.
The vote is not a referendum on whether you like to board or gthe way they have handled this issue. It is about making the right choice for Everton’s crucial stadium decision. Since there is no real, proper, sound reason to vote No (as alluded to by the no camp’s guff above - including Lyndon on this occasion) surely the future is looking bright at last given sense should now prevail in the vote. Fortunately, if there are any ’drunken knobhead evertonians’ I’m confident they’ll be in the minority ;-)

So, we will own a spanking knew stadium worth £200m eventually.?Bad news for all you yes voters, "WE" will own sweet FA, BK and his fellow shareholders will benefit significantly and I predict will sell out at huge profit within 5 years. This will leave us with ahuge mortgage from the new owner ( debt ) which we will have to service. End result is substandard stadium in crap area with huge debt. I can’t believe some of you are being sucked in by this.

Northsea Blue. Firstly you mention BK selling for a big profit and then you go on and say we’ll have a sub-standard stadium with louds of debt.
It can be one or the other but not both. If BK sells for a big profit then he must have something good to sell and if the stadium is crap etc then he’ll have no chance of his big profit.

Marsh, I didn’t mention the RS - you obviously have a problem there even though you say you don’t care what they say.!So you work in the City..? Ask your boss about debt and how its serviced mate, as you quite obviously don’t have a clue.

COLLIE,MARSH....
Brown envelopes,rich investors that you "KNOW" exist...
I tell you what boys, take a roll of Baco-foil, wrap it round your head and lie under the bed with the lekky blanket on, they wont be able to find you , I promise

The Everton fan base is the City Region of Liverpool, not just the city centre!!! My hope is that most voters agree with Terry’s comments and vote YES. For this and all the other reasons Terry outlines I support our move up the road. Sure, if we were talking about moving out to Milton Keynes that is ridiculous; but 4 miles up the road into a shiny new stadium within the City Region is superb.

Couldn’t agree more Lyndon. Everton is a very old tree with very well established roots. Uproot it and plonk it in completely different soil and long term it will die, no matter how much water and fertiliser you chuck on it

Tony Marsh’s comments are an absolute disgrace! He has absolutely no evidence for such an awful remark about brown envelopes. The decision about the move is about the survival of EFC. Sir Terry’s letter has such gravitas that it must persuade all but the most dogmatic no voters. Who would you listen to if you owned EFC? Tony or Terry? Erm.... hard one that!

Can someone tell Lyndon to give up gardening and Tony Marsh to...to...Oh just tell him to fuck off!

If every tenth fan spends 50 quids at Tesco every two weeks, that gives 19*5000*50=4.75 million extra income a year. And it’s a very pessimistic estimate but still you can clearly see why is it better for Tesco to build a stadium for us. (And remember: it’s not 100 million they spend on us, it’s 100 million we’d have to spend if we were to build a similar stadium ourselves.)

However, Tesco is still not famous for settling with fair profits.

I was reading both sides of the issue interested in both sets of views when I came across the vitriolic rankings of Marsh. I do not know this fella and to be honest do not want to get to know him. In relation to what he says I could be as abusive towards him but will not lower myself to this. I have replied to his ramblings and he may say were is the substance in my counter arguments. I would say right back at yer lad.

Brian lets get one thing straight here mate. David Barks lives in the U.S.A and is so far off the radar he could be a U F O.

So you have to live in L4 to have an opinion, I live 6 miles from Goodison have supported them from being a child and hold a season ticket. As I am obviously off the radar as well so do I not vote then? In addition all those people on the supporters coach from Harrogate. You drove past me after the match you despite having spent a lot of time and money to support the blues you can do one as well then.

Who gives a shit what Tesco or Knowsley council are offering?

Many people do and will vote yes, if they feel that what Tesco and Knowsley offer is good for the club.

Who gives a shit what will benefit whom. Barks your physco babble regarding investment plans and regeneration of deprived ares of Merseyside is commendable but we dont give a fuck.What we the NO votes are saying is we dont want to go to fucking Kirkby.

So saying the above you mean you are not interested even if this turned out to be the best for Everton and the long-term benefit?s ensured success in the future.

We the No VOTERS DONT GIVE A FLYING FUCK what Tescos make from the deal.We dont want in for many many reasons.

List them in a constructive reasonable manner, give us facts, give us realistic proposals, but stop with the sweeping and abusive statements.

We dont want a skint chairman pulling us out of Liverpool because he can not raise the funds to stay.Are you so thick as not to grasp this.

The reverse argument could be are you not so thick as not to grasp that we need to move to kirkby for all the reasons outlined.

Stick the Kirkby deal and stick Kenwright and Wyness Were the sun dont shine.You wet lettuce brigade havent got a clue about what makes Everton FC tick.

I am sure you have the god given right to speak for all Evertonians and if some disagree they are obviously the one?s that are wrong and deserve to be castigated in this manner.

A new staduim on the cheap and you want us to sell our souls.

No stadium and you want to sell our souls on a pipe dream, lets leave it all to LCC they have a great record, just look at the Mathew street festival.

Evertons fan base is in the heart of this city and its hard enough competing with LFC while we are still here.

Everton?s fan base is in the heart of the supporters not the city, The city is concrete and brick people make a club not concrete and brick. Stadiums house the people; people?s hearts house the club.

Please Barks regeneration of deprived areas and building motorways is the job of goverment.Not Football clubs.

It is also the job of the government including local government to attract investment to build roads and regenerate deprived areas.

Everton founder members of the football league and you think its ok to turn our backs on our city.

Everton founder members of the football league and you think its okay for us to ensure they go the way of Nott?s County, Burnley, and Stoke etc.

What next Real Madrid moving to Benidorm.

4 miles compared to 100?s of miles. your example would actually be like moving from Liverpool to London so not really valid.

Learn about the people of this city you yes voters then you might understand why we object to this move.

So if you are so sure that you have the heartbeat of the city why worry so much, as the club has allegedly the largest walk up the vote will obviously be No. Maybe however you yourself do not understand the people of the city.




Anyway if you have not guessed yet I and all my family have in fact voted YES!!!!!!

Marsh O’Tool.....if Everton raise £50million+ from the sale of Goodison Park and the naming rights for the Kirkby Rectangle I will change my name to something similar to yours....something that evokes memories of stories about leprechauns.

Tony Marsh, you claim ’Everton’s fan base is in the heart of this city’.
This statement is so false it’s not even funny.
I 100% guarentee you there are substantially more Everton fans in Knowsley and Sefton than there are in the ’City of Liverpool’. Don’t dare disagree with me on that because not only will you be outright lying but because it is just an insult to mine and everyone else’s intelligence.
Our core fan base is within the City Region, all parts of it, not just the bits you select.
You are not Mr Everton whether you think you are or not. You don’t even seem to like anything about the Club. You hate the Chairman, you hate the CEO, you hate the manager, you hate most of the players, you hate any fan who has the ’nerve’ to disagree with you. Get over yourself fella.

Answer me this question, you pro Kirkby voters? I,ve just read Terrys article in the echo.Its supposed to be demarcratic, a level playing field for all parties to put their point across.So why dont the Liverpool echo print on their front page, Ian Macdonalds or Greg Murphy responce to the clubs pro kirkby move? Its the Trueman show.

Tony Marsh: "why didnt Tesco bail us out of the Kings Dock mess at the time? We could of offered Goodison as a down payment for them to build a Super market on"


Because they dont just build supermarkets randomly. They study long term economic potential of the area. Goodison has Sainsburys down the road, asda in town, tesco off edge lane. They had no upside for doing this.

Really, some of you are not even close to being in the real world.

The you say and imply that ’all sorts will make money from this, it will all come out after its done’.


x files stuff. People will make money yes - its called having a good business plan. And if wyness got a bonus why wouldnt he derserve one? He’s worked a miracle... a 150m stadium and we incur 35m cost for it... I’d be asking for a huge bonus if i got that deal for my business.

Re Colin, the Echo publishes articles about Everton’s and Tesco’s views because they are big time companies and their rhetoric contains more than just opinions, whereas Ian MacDonald and Greg Murphy are who exactly?

Does anyone have a good estimate of how this vote is going to go?

The vote on icliverpool is in favour of a no vote and people here don’t seem to want it either. (I want a yes vote by the way)

Colin August 10th Liverpool Echo. Lead story Tunnel site owners call for Everton FC talks. Nothing from the other side.

The club want to move to Kirkby they want us voting yes. They have given us this opportunity to make the decision.

They the club are going to try and sell it to us as the best deal its what they want.

I have never seen anyone say vote for the other party they are better than us why do we think the club would.

Colin Malone, The Echo seems to pick the main communications of the relevant parties e.g. EFC, LCC, TESCO, KMBC, Bestway etc. For individual fans to be given top billing would be rather tricky as it would need a lot of column inches since it would be correct to put forward the veiws of both YES and NO camps with equal billing. In my opinion, if meaningful, informative and well argued business cases and future success focused were the criteria Sir Terry’s missive would the only one selected by either side. Emotion and nostalgia centric backward looking pieces focused on just the city centre rather than Merseyside as a whole would doubtless be the preserve of the No camp crowd. One of the few certainties in life is change, best learn to embrace it and change in a timely fashion and for the optimised future benefit.

Marsh O’Tool....please read the following direct quotation and then give me your interpretation of its meaning.

"this is a brand new stadium for very little outlay which we can service from selling GP and the naming rights."

Might I suggest that those in favour of Kirkby stop trying to turn the discussion of the ballot into some form of voting for or against Tony Marsh. The ballot is infinitely more important than that!

Doesn’t the fact that this proposed move has engendered such vitreol and bitterness tell you anything? As I’ve said before, this has caused something akin to a civil war amongst many Evertonians, the first since 1892. If it is the panacea, why are so many Blues against it? Are the No voters just emotional, live-in-the-past idiots? Or do location, history, sense of loss and gut-feelings have a right to play some part. Personally, I feel we’re getting the the bum’s rush and shafted, good style; I would rather force the people entrusted with Our Club to do more to provide alternatives. ’No plan B’ is an outrageous statement from a CEO - a sackable offence in any company I’ve worked with.

Marsh O’Tool.....if you are saying that the quotation is not yours but is something written or said by Wyness you should have said so in your original posting. My interpretation of what was written is that sale of G.P + naming rights for Kirkby Rectangle = £50m+

If that is achieved, and the quotation belongs to the CEO then my name change will reflect same....I can’t decide between Falstaff from Shakespeare or Micawber from Dickens. No! I think he is such a great comedian it will have to Oliver Hardy.

Echo front page news. Kirkby Wellcome Everton.Lies.
Yo the faceless person who are calling people a knobhead. Theirs no room on this site for that kind of language.
This site would,nt be the great site that it is, if it was,nt for the likes of Tony Marsh, who speaks from he,s head and heart.

Marsh...,I’m being less formal now because I feel as though I’ve known you for most of my lifetime, please indulge this wayward child a little longer. We take on a new debt of £50m+ (Terry’s figure + inflation + overspend + fitting out, etc.) and we raise some money from selling G.P. and selling naming rights for The Rectangle.

With our track record this might achieve £25m.(generous to a fault);leaving an additional debt of £25m+ to add to our existing debt of (you tell me....nobody seems to know the accurate figure but it never, ever seems to reduce). Now, servicing a debt, as I understand it, is different from repaying a debt. Only little people like me bother to pay off their debts whereas large organisations prefer to be paying inordinate amounts of interest over an interminable period of time for reasons that I cannot fathom.

If our existing debt, which we have been servicing for years, keeps growing then the likelihood is that the combined debts are likely to keep growing too. I am uncomfortable with the use of statements like "service the debt" when we are being told that the brave new world that beckons promises to produce much greater revenue streams than before.

If the CEO is so confident that the Kirkby adventure is going to be so lucrative for Everton, why does he not say that all debts will be cleared by 2015 based on the following figures(?) projected for extra revenue. If we keep carrying on like this we will be forever in debt and I don’t feel comfortable with that even if it seems to be normal in the macho world of high finance.

Okay, that?s quite enough on this thread. This is a final warning to the twat who is posting with stupid names (you know who you are). All your messages have been disabled. Threat this forum and other users with respect of your access will be denied.