Wow... what a great theme for a ToffeeWeb Poll!!!!

Don’t really know is the short answer but I don’t honestly think a website poll is representative of the ’average Evertonian’. Out of the nine Evertonians I know as friends only three have computers at home and only one of those bothers with Everton Websites. I can’t say that is typical but it can’t be far off. Incidentally, the ten of us are all YES voters. There’s a poll running on Bluekipper at the moment and the last time I looked (this morning) it was 50/50. That tends me to think of a reasonable majority in favour of Kirkby...but I could be wrong! Incidentally, in another ’Player of the year’poll at the end of last season I was able to vote several times (on the same BK website) for Mikky, just by logging off and logging back on! Another reason why a lot of these polls can’t be trusted to be accurate.

Jon

Thinking that myself mate, I cant begin to guess - with any confidence -
When I visit these sites, or read latest views I have an overwhelming feeling the yes vote has it
However,Ive been in lots of bars pubs,chippies during the two games so far, and the strange thing is, I havent met anyone prepared to say in public that they have voted yes, is it just me that’s experienced this ?

Dave, Just like nobody would ever admit they voted for Margaret Thatcher!

I’m getting twitchy about it. Actually in agreement with Hatton when he says tonight that the board should have had the balls to make the decision themselves, certainly its obvious Wyness thinks this too. I’m not a fan of the general tone of KEIOC - they are coming across as far too aggressive, the in-fighting is very unhealthy, especially at a time when we are top of the league!

For what its worth there are five of us over fifty all NO but I think it will be close and due to the way its going no real winners as its split the support and will take a long time to heal

Ok, here’s one for you. Several people have apparently received more than one ballot paper - presumably because they are both season ticket holders and shareholders / Evertonia members.

If I were to vote twice, once FOR and once AGAINST, how will the the Electoral Reform Sociery (is that what they’re called?) decide on how I actually want to vote, given the one vote per person rule.

Ideal for people with split personalities don’t you think?

I can see it now... this team will develop steadyily for the next couple of years, perhaps even claim a champs league spot but when it comes to going up a level - winning a league or going far in europe - we simply wont be able to make the leap because of a failure to attract players (we’ll have no money and a crappy old ground). We’ll be back to square one whilst the other lot flourish in a superstadium 200 yards from our crumbling old wreck. Call that typical Evertonian cynicysm or whatever but that’s what will happen. Exactly how much money / how long will all the alternatives take? A NO vote is a kick in the teeth for all those working at the club to take it to the next level. All this over a line drawn on a map!

On no more than a gut instinct i’d hazard a guess it will be somewhere around a 60-65% ’yes’, that’s just by people i’ve spoken too and the ’feel’ of things at our one and only home match during the vote. Whatever the percentage i’m absolutely 100% certain of a majority yes - it’s up to others then to discuss whether that would be enough.

I now think that we should have just announced a move in three to four years and just gone ahead with it. Most fans I believe would have just come to accept it for the good of the club with time. We’re now in a situation of uncertainty going into the season with the fans split, and many of them making decisions for irrational reasons, because they feel they either havent been given enough info, or they dont trust the board.
The Everton board are the only people who really Know the full and minute details regarding this move and the vote is just boiling down to fans either trusting them and voting with their head, or not trusting them and voting with their heart as though they’re a political party ( with KW for the new PM!)
The board are basically rolling a dice for the future of the club.

Jon..."the KEOIC people? (sic)...? far too aggressive?..."infighting very unhealthy?..."crappy old ground?..."crumbling old wreck?..."kick in the teeth?... know what, Jon? Whatever. Just, whatever, mate. You?ve only got a week a to go for your shiny new ?yes? vote (hands down - you know it, I know it, we all know it). And the KEIOC ?people? - no longer fellow Evertonians hey? - will have to accept the outcome. And there?ll be no more ?aggression?, or ?very unhealthy infighting? or ?kicks in the teeth? and you?ll only have two more seasons in your ?crappy old crumbling wreck of a ground?. Just spare us the moral high ground and your coy little ?just a quickies? on the move. Suppose that?s too aggressive, though? Anyway, here?s a committed ?no? man?s white flag hoisted high...feel free to run around parading it with Degsy and Keith. Past caring.

A simple Yes or No does not cover all options.Something like this would be better.
PLEASE NUMBER IN ORDER OF PREFERENCE.
Kirkby ?
The Loop?
Revamp Goodison?

My choice will be financed by, (TICK A BOX)
The Tesco Deal.
Pie in the Sky consortium.
Wishful Thinking Co.
Daydreams Uited />
Fairies at the bottom of the garden.
A combination of any of the bottom four.

Greg, I think your response just made Jon’s point for him. Sad.

How so, Dave?

Jon,

If you think this is all just about a line on a map, you’re an idiot.

Greg

End of unhealthy in fighting ?
I think that qualifies you as the king od wishful thinking
I stated earlier that I honestly havent met a yes person, why is that ? shame ? fear of ridicule ? or worse abuse ?
your problem is mate you think all no voters are members of KEIOC, simple not true, I havent met any of them either, Im just talking about Evertonians, you know the sort who I mixed with on saturday and again on Wednesday. The mate who I was with is a no voter, he’s constantly in a cold sweat about this vote, he wants to understand the yes vote - I do - but he cant

My worry is your right, it is far too unhealthy .Dave Roberts analogy hit the nail on the head, Thatcher voters felt they did the right thing, but felt uneasy saying it in public. Trust me the no voters will feel there has been a far greater betrayal if we end up in Kirkby than anyone who despised the Thatcher govenment.

End of it ? you truly are the king of wishful thinking.

Ok, so what viable, affordable, realistic alternative do you present?

For years we were dying on our arse - muppets in charge of the club who made sure we missed the sky boat and got left behind. We’ve finally got what we were crying out for - businessman with clout and a sense of purpose to match the driven and dynamic team that is starting (slowly) to develop. Would you be happier with Dr David Marsh in charge running his old boys club with their heads stuck in the sand?

I,ve said it twice and i will say it again, if this was an option for the two glasgow clubs, Rangers or Celtic, Lets go all the way and bring liverpool football club into it, What do you think the vote would be.A big unaminous, NOoooo. KEIOC.

well if the vote is no , i would be 100 % in fear for the future of the club.

todays news is that the bestway group are getting the people behind the millenium and emirates stadium to design ’the loop’ .(both stadiums were over budget)

well i suppose its going to be gold plated with free money , sex and beer for all the fans too ?

(i see atraight through there schemes , this news is propaganda and id be disgusted if any everton fan falls for this sugar coated carrot on a stick!)

idiots ! the site being to small is a huge stumbling block , but not as big as the fact that everton as a club will simply not be able to afford the financies for any other move , other than kirkby.

instead of l.c.c and bestway spouted bs pie in the sky pipe dreams , id like them to explain where they think the funding is going to come from ? (without costing us more than we would have to pay for kirkby)

with kirkby the club literaly has to pay a very little amount . the loop option is going to cost us vastly more.

people say whats the motive behind our boards reasoning behind a kirkby move. but im 100 % certain that bestway and l.c.c have not got the clubs best interest at heart. the loop proposal is all about fat cats and huge contracts and the l.c.c saving face.

continued.....

i just seem the stadium - awful unflattering crap.thats regardless of wether i think yes to kirkby. it looks horrid like a council block of flats stuck to it.

also a few others things of note ...

1.wheres the parking ?
2.wheres the area for retail development to increase revenue ?
3.isn’t it gonna be a death trap crossing those roads to get to the stadium
4.isnt thousands of fans descending on that stadium going to cause traffic chaos ?

People, You are FUCKIN’ IDIOTS if you vote ’NO’. Vote ’No’ if you want, and when we move - coz this vote is just simply to please us - you stay away and leave us to watch the game in peace you gang of divvies. WE NEED A NEW GROUND TO MOVE FORWARD. Never mind the city boundaries; when we moved to Goodison, Everton wasn’t in the city boundaries then either. Get real and grow up.....

Bestway ’backward’ with The Loop... Am i missing something in the new images of the Bestway proposal or does it seem there is no car park in the images? And not just a car park, when the queues of traffic trying getting there, where are they queuing? on the dual carriageway!!!? And the hell is the tower about... Landmark, yes, useable commercial outlet, no! Find a bigger site please!

well, i’ve got to say i quite like the design and it proves that a stadium can fit on the loop, something the club and the majority of people said could not happen.

this site should be main priority until it proves that a stadium IS NOT viable, the people involved should be allowed the time to do all research on this site, if this site is not viable, then kirkby it is.

Andy, my concern is we may not find out that the site is not viable until after the vote has been completed. If this is being used by LCC to prevent a move they may achieve it and we have no Kirkby and no viable alternative.

At the moment I think it’s all LCC trying to save face.

Finally, in answer to the original post, the people I got to the match with are split roughly 50-50. It will be very close.

steve

i understand peoples concern that the vote will be no, people see the kirkby stadium as a real chance of progression others beg to differ,and i’ll be honest i think even if the votes no they should keep the kirkby plans on hold, let people do the research into the bestway site, because this site is the only possible location in liverpool that can house a stadium.

until actual evidence suggests that a stadium cannot be built on this site the people involved should be given time

we definately need a new stadium, theres no two ways about it, it just feels to me that this decision on kirkby is being rushed for some reason, this is the biggest decision in the history of everton football club and id like to think all locations have been researched properly.

It’s a controversial issue on which we all have our views. Hopefully it won’t be too devisive in the long term. People are entitled to their viewpoint - but let’s not forget that we share one undisputed point - we’re all Evertonians. Whatever happens, I’ll still be a Blue through and through.

Jim P, I’m with you on this re supporting the team as one regardless of the vite outcome. For the record I’m a NO voter, and it has nothing to do with a line on a map but location does play a part, I do see us just loesing young captive support. I also think the access to Kirkby is no way better. The fact is we have a high walk away rate of fans. This will not be possible for Kirkby and there will be mass queues of cars, where they will park... 1000 spaces for a supermarket on a Saturday... have any of you ever been with the wife! I just want the club to acknowledge that before the loop is proved to be a non starter, there IS a plan B. As for KEIOC and No voters... well I have no contact with them and they may well be aggressive... but any more than one KW?
COYB against reading, and whatever the outcome there is only one thing that matters! The team!

Dave you havent met anyone who voted yes,where do you drink in your back garden

Re Andy Mack, you mention the fact that a large number of fans walk to the match as a stalling point. Surely, if we move to Kirkby then a large proportion of people from Kirkby, Fazackerley, Aintree, Maghull could walk?
I would also point out that many who walk to Goodison live in Netherton and Bootle - apparently not in Liverpool.

The initial impressions of Bestway’s proposed Stadium look like a multi-storey car park adjoined by an office block and I am not impressed at all. At least the Kirkby stadium has something iconic about it...this most definitely does not.

But that is not the problem for me. There are serious safety issues about this site (the Loop) in terms of access arrangements and more importantly evacuation procedures and times. Bridges over very busy roads will be required for both and if those bridges get caught up in the problem causing the evacuation it could be a catastrophe. More generally if two, three or four bridges are built it will be prohibitively expensive for one thing but more perilously, 50,000 fans trying to leave the ground will be channeled through and over those bridges causing serious human congestion, again with the potential for catastrophe. And what about away supporters after a ’difficult’ game, they will be channeled right in to this same human congestion with no opportunity to disperse.

While thousands of fans do walk to Goodison at present there are also thousands who can’t. Where is the provision for them? Where is the car park? What about congestion on the surrounding roads...already very busy on a Saturday afternoon? Where is the room for the enableing commercial development which even the new Anfield needs for it’s construction...on the other side of very busy roads? And what about the threat from Grosvenor and the Chamber of commerce that they would legally challenge any retail development in this area because of the detrimental effect it could have on the city centre development already under way?

This leads to the final problem. If the loop was the only option on the table and if we had the time we could wait and see if these problems could be resolved. But we haven’t got the time. Tesco are not going to wait for ever. At some point they will go off and do their own thing and that option will disappear. And then do you know what...the Loop option will hit the planning buffers, be challenged in Court or in some other way be found undeliverable. But by then it will be too late because Tesco will have gone, we will still be in the City, at Goodison with no other options available and LCC will have no reason to push for a new Stadium for us because it will be a fait-accompli, with LCC still getting its revenue from the Club and no prospect of us leaving town. They won’t have to try anymore. Meanwhile, our Club will be dying on the vine. The Loop ia all about politics, don’t fall for it.

Am I the only person who can’t decide??!!??? Seriously, its doin my head in!!! What really bugs me, is that I just don’t get how Tesco are actually financing this - the best analysis seemed to be Colin Fitz’ article (http://www.toffeeweb.com/season/07-08/comment/fans/070811-Fitz.htm)and it appears that Tesco are just paying for the site (£50m). So where’s the other £100m coming from? My bet is that its £20/£30m upfront and then other "investments"/"loans" which have got to be paid back and so actually get us into a hell of a lot (more) of debt. If anyone can correct me here, please do, I am trying to understand this one...
IF only we could’ve come up with an extra £30m for Kings Dock... that would’ve been sweet as.

Michael,

Read terry Leahy’s open letter on the official website and when you do, remember.... HE CAN’T LIE TO THE TESCO SHAREHOLDERS OR HE COULD END UP IN JAIL!

Michael,

Just an afterthought. If you are confused about who is paying what for Kirkby, who is going to pay for the loop???!!!We’ve heard nout about that yet!

This loop thing all looks a bit ’pie in the sky’ to me, not that I’m in anyway an authority, nor do I claim to have read too much about it either. The initial plans make the site look a bit ’tight’ to me, not much space round the ground and it looks like we’d just end up with a stadium built on a roundabout.

I’m not ken myself, I think Kirky makes the most financial sense and that, in this day & age, is the most important thing whether we like it or not.

I’m also a bit bored of it all now too, and can’t wait until its all over and we can get on with winning the league. : )

When I say I’m not ken, what I actually mean is, I’m not keen - clearly I’m Allan not this Ken character whoever he is, clearly an imposter.

Sorry for anyone I may have mislead.

Allan,

Who’s Kirky?! Ken’s mate?

Does any body else agree that the vote is more of a vote of confidence in the board or not as the case may be!

No, Dave Roberts, the problem is, these guys don’t end up in jail.
They say what ever they like to achieve the desired result, and a legal team, the like, you could not not even imagine, prevent any indiscretions, (perceived or otherwise) from compromising their position.
Perhaps Sir T is different, let’s hope so, because it appears as if EVERTON FOOTBALL CLUB will leave the city of it’s birth.
People say it’s got to happen. Life moves on,
Well, I hope so. I know all that any Evertonian wants,is that the club is alive and successful.
I live in Australia now, I was born in Liverpool in 1952, left for Oz in 1989.
I was fortunate to see Everton win league titles, cups and a European trophy. But there were barren years too. All clubs experience that.
Everton have had a great start to the season, David Moyes is a good manager, I guess where we go next has already been decided.
Who said, ’it’s the economy stupid.’
It’s economics that will determine our future.
And it’s people who have never heard of the boys pen, or stood in the paddock ( because it was slightly more upmarket!!!) or been blown away, the first time they sat in the stands at a game, or can remember a lot of their lives through the history of the club.
We don’t own the club, we only own our memories.
I make trips back to England, I always get to Goodison, Everton are in my heart and soul and always will be.
If we go to a new stadium, where ever it may be, I will go. Why would’nt I, Everton will carry on.
I’ll be sad, it ain’t Goodison, but I support the team, I support EVERTON.
This has ended up sounding like I support a move.
But like 100’s of letters I’ve read here, my heart is in Goodison, er! my head, well, it’s in noddy land where the Blues were top of the league and players just wanted to wear the Blue shirt and didn’t bother about contracts and zzz.
Once a Blue, always a Blue. I think we should remember that.
Anyone who mentions Spuds tee shirt leave the room immediately.
We will support them whatever, we always have, always will.

How long have Tesco and Everton had (during their period of exclusivity) to produce visuals for the proposed stadium in Kirkby? I am not sure but I know that it is a damn sight longer than Bestways have had to make a presentation of their vision of the future for Everton.

Despite the time that Tesco/Everton have had for their project, I have yet to see a plan view of the Kirkby development. Such a plan view would enable us to see the relative positions of stadium, hypermarket, car parks etc. Despite the absence of essential detail, the yes-voters have not made a murmur. Now that Bestways have issued the most preliminary of details about their proposals, people are up in arms screaming "where is the car park?", "I would fear for my safety", etc. The same people are content with a 1,000 car spaces in Kirkby and a park and ride scheme based in Aintree (I believe).

If you are patient and give Bestways even half of the time that Tesco have had, you might like their proposals. The only way that this necessary time can be allocated to Bestways is for you to vote no to Kirkby. If Tesco need Everton to secure their Kirkby ambition then they will have to wait until the Everton family have had a chance to fairly compare the two schemes.

If you produce a yes-majority it will be taken as a green light by Tesco and it will then be in THEIR best interest to see that the Bestway scheme is not given sufficient time to evolve. I believe (opinion...not fact... I agree) that Tesco will therefore attempt to hustle Everton into signing a binding commitment to the Kirkby scheme in a very short space of time after the ballots are counted.

This will effectively deny choice to a large section of the Everton family who have serious misgivings about the Kirkby location. This, more than anything else, will cause a long-lasting division to be created amongst the fan base. This could, in part, be avoided by engineering no more than a short delay to the progress that we all wish for the Club. To deny ourselves the opportunity to make a fair comparison between two real schemes (not Kirkby or oblivion, as some would have you believe) would be the greatest act of folly in the Club’s history.

Dave
I’ve read that letter mate, and it doesn’t clearly state where the rest of the money is coming from. I honestly think the language is designed to confuse people - I get that its all to do with the value of the land going up - but that suggests to me that we’d actually be borrowing an awful lot of money against the value of the land - and thats not exactly what KW is telling us. And I also thought the deal was that Tesco owned the land. So how’s it gonna work?? If someone can tell me point-by-point, in layman’s terms so that it can be properly understood, exactly how this deal will work then I might be convinced.
I’m not saying that the Loop necessarily is a better deal, I just want to know the facts on the Kirkby deal, and STILL I don’t think we’ve got them.

Michael,

I don’t know what you have been reading but can I explain the basics.

Ignoring the cost of the land the stadium (if we went out and bought one tomorrow)would cost £150m.

That £150m will provide a stadium for 50,000 supporters with room for further expansion and improvement.

If we went out and ’bought’ this Stadium anywhere else however we would have to buy the land as well and that could cost up to £50m.

Knowsley are donating the land for nothing. So we save on that.

Tesco are putting £50m into the whole project so we save on that.

Tesco are foregoing the usual profit they make on construction costs £15m. So we save on that.

So Everton’s contribution to the whole thing is £35m and for that we get a stadium worth £150m and it is ours for 999years.

John Clarke,

Living in OZ you will probably be in bed as I respond to your post.I hope you are sober in the morning. I am not quite sure what your point was but I was born a good few years before you, John, and I don’t need any lectures about the ’boy’s pen’ from you. I was probably progressing to the ’adult’ terraces as you were joining the screaming mob of kids. Neither do I need to be reminded of what it is about to love this football Club...I have loved it for the whole period of my life that I have memories about, as did my Dad before me. As for ’They’ not going to jail, I reply in one word...ENRON. Enough said. OH, and by the way, Liverpool is NOT the city of Everton’s birth. Check your history before you use that to decry the possibility of us leaving the place.

Dave Roberts,

You state that ?So Everton?s contribution to the whole thing is £35m and for that we get a stadium worth £150m ??.

With the figures you have mentioned, £65m from Tesco, Everton £35m debt, does this mean the land at Kirkby is now worth £50m? The land at Goodison is only worth £14m (and some people think that?s an over-estimation), so this new stadium must be one hell of a size.

I don?t understand the figures at all. One minute we are told by Wyness that Tesco are putting in £50m towards the stadium costs. The next minute, Tesco announce that they are not putting £50m towards the stadium but to the ?project? - what exactly does that mean? Is it going on the surrounding infrastructure ? roads etc ? and not on the stadium?

I have just got no idea what level of debt EFC are letting themselves in for and would appreciate someone, with more appreciation of the facts, explaining them simply.

Ditto!!!

I may be way off the mark, sorry to muddy the waters if I am, but this is what I am led to believe in terms of finances...

Ball park figures, for us to build in the City would cost us 200m (Stadium £150m, and Land £50m)...

But, if we go to Kirkby, Tesco’s builders will build us a £150m stadium for £100m (saving us £50m). Knowsley Council are donating the land (saving us 50m), Tesco are putting in £50m as a sweetner, and are also not taking out their developers profits of £15m whatever the hell that means.

So, total cost of Kirkby Project is £150m

Knowsley paying £50m
Tesco paying £65m
Everton paying £35m

Everton are to raise this money with the sale of Goodison and stadium naming rights.

If this is basically right, then please someone at EFC issue it like this so even divvies like me can understand.