ToffeeWeb - Season 2007-08

Lyndon

Dave, your incessant ridiculing of what is possible at the "loop" is getting tiresome. Complain all you like about the fact that there are no specifics on the funding — you're entitled to an opinion — but can you not have the maturity to accept that a 50,000-seat stadium is architecturally possible on that site? Again, put the funding part aside and look at the aerial image released today:

It quite clearly shows the loop road running under the eastern side of the stadium. You're not being conned. If by the same Google acid test you can fit the Emirates stadium inside the loop without building over the roads, then it's clear that what is being presented here by Bestway is possible by extending the site's footprint over the existing road.

Steve Claringbold
1 Posted 16/08/2007 at 19:11:26

No offence Dave, but Google Earth isn’t exactly the most accurate tool.

Dan Mckie
2 Posted 16/08/2007 at 19:16:14

I must admit I do like the look of that stadium but it will take more than a nice picture (which I could do with my arts and design dvd rom) to convince EFC,its time for LCC,Bestway and KEIOC to stop all this and start showing some figures because I feel more and more people are starting to lose patience with them,their pretty pictures and their talk! My ’yes’ vote has already gone back though.

Toffee
3 Posted 16/08/2007 at 19:24:11

Dave,

I have just googled it..... your right, I have just placed my thumb over "The Loop" on google earth and it was a fuckin tight squeeze mate!

My thumbs are only of average size, no shovels! If it cant get them in, how the fuck will it get a 55,000 seater stadium!

Google earth..... Classic! hah

Ps - I all set for Kirby anyway, reluctantly!

Greg Murphy
4 Posted 16/08/2007 at 19:32:58

God, if you really, really must rely on Google Earth, rather than assume the likes of Tom Hughes, Trevor Skempton, Malcolm Carter - Bestway’s property manager, officials from HOK and WSP might actually know a bit more than you do and, frankly, aren’t in the business of holding themselves up to ridicule knowing that they could easily be disproved by thumb-prints on a PC screen (just stunning!) then at least do yourselves a favour: use the "Tools" option from the menu and start measuring things with the "Ruler". Granted, it ain’t accurate to the milimetre but it does prove that you can fit a 50,000 stadium on the site (whether you like or want it or how it can be funded is a different matter) and it’s better than this amateur sleuthing using bloody thumbprints! Anyway, as Lyndon’s alluded to, this is old ground (no pun) and at least three weeks old. Besides, I thought the savvy "yes" argument - having grudging conceded that a stadium can indeed be housed there - had now moved onto funding, not still arguing about the loop size. It fits - accept it. And by the way, the aerial image - unlike anything we’ve seen from nine months of so-called Kirkby "exclusvity" - at least shows how and where the stadium will be centred within its local environs.

Dave Roberts
5 Posted 16/08/2007 at 19:31:48

Steve, Google Earth images are photographs, you can’t get more accurate than that especially when two sites are in the same frame!

Lyndon, If you are happy to have a motorway running under you arse at the match that is up to you. It isn’t good enough for me. I am too mature to accept that in order to stay in the City! If you find my disagreement with your views tiresome, tough. We are being conned. This ’option’ is not only political it could impact the survival of our Club. By the way, it is architecturally possible to build almost anything almost anywhere, that is not the issue. Stadia sailing out over busy major roadways is just plain ridiculous.

Greg Murphy
6 Posted 16/08/2007 at 19:55:30

Amazing really, Dave Roberts, how the Vicente Calderon (given a UEFA 5-star rating as recently as 2003 - oh and a former host of World Cup games) has coped all these years. Oh and I’ll pre-empt your answer: the motorway is not the reason why Los Colcheronos are leaving. And as for Landsdowne Road with its train line running underneath...and Old Trafford stretching out over a road (and they’re already making noises about the Stretford End and the railway line)...and oh yeah, the overhang at Villa Park.

Dave Randles
7 Posted 16/08/2007 at 19:55:01

Dave Roberts: -

If you’ve voted yes on the basis that you are unhappy (and I quote) ’to have a motorway running under you arse at the match’, well then I really do despair.

Whatever next? They’ll be building tunnels under rivers, perhaps even seas, men will be taking to the skies in big metal things and a whole labyrinthal network of railway tracks could be built beneath the major modernised cities of the world.

Dismissing the whole ’loop’ idea out of hand with very little knowledge of what you’re actually voting yes for - that’s just plain scary.

Steve Claringbold
8 Posted 16/08/2007 at 20:15:26

Dave, as Greg has already stated it is possible to fit said stadium in said area using the tools options. So my meaning was only, if you aren’t going to use it with the proper tools then it isn’t the most accurate tool.

Lyndon
Editorial Team
9 Posted 16/08/2007 at 20:10:41

Ridiculous? Dave, as this image shows, it’s quite possible to have a four-lane (it might even be six, I can’t quite tell from the photo) motorway running under a stadium:

And there is also a road running under Old Trafford’s North Stand. And why would I care if I have a "motorway running under my arse" when I’m seated inside the stadium any more than I would if there’s an undergound line running under my office?

Phil Bellis
10 Posted 16/08/2007 at 20:16:36

Dave Roberts..
You’ve clearly made up your mind that Kirkby is the best/only option so let’s leave it at that. One line in your post could actually be a mantra for those who say no to Kirkby..’We are being conned’

Andy
11 Posted 16/08/2007 at 20:14:39

dave roberts

that is a rediculous post, to vote yes to kirkby because you find it hard to believe that a stadium cannot work on top of a road,

i find it hard to believe why people are so dismissive towards this site.

Barry Lightfoot
12 Posted 16/08/2007 at 20:29:56

I find it hard to believe why people are so dismissive towards this site.

Because there is no money to build it.
Because there is no money to build it.
Because there is no money to build it.
Because there is no money to build it.
Because there is no money to build it.
Because there is no money to build it.

Steve Claringbold
13 Posted 16/08/2007 at 20:34:19

I must admit, when I first saw it my initial knee jerk reaction was to say that KEIOC were clutching at straws. Then I read a bit more about the whole project etc and it does indeed seem a viable option.

With regards to figures etc, any proposal would be unable to come up with accurate figures due to Everton’s exclusivity deal with Tescos as any figures would also have to take into account Everton’s contribution. But seeing as Everton have the exclusivity deal they are unable to meet any other prospective developers etc.

Andy
14 Posted 16/08/2007 at 20:35:54

barry

how do you know theres no money for it

and dont you think that its in the best interest of the club to research this site the dive head first into kirkby.

colin malone
15 Posted 16/08/2007 at 20:43:47

If this Mittal storey is true, That is more reason to vote no. Kenwright has stated if the right offer came, he would sell. whats the right offer? From Bill Gates.Its a Tesco box off.

col
16 Posted 16/08/2007 at 20:34:20

If ever there was a non-starter the Loop is it; the last desperate cries of anguish from KEIOC before we do the sensible thing and move to Kirkby where never again will we have to suffer the incompetence and indifference of Liverpool City Council.

If, and it is a big if, this pie in the sky figment of the imagination is going to hold 50000 fans we need at least 10000 car parking spaces within walking distance. Where are they?

And how are the fans going to get to the ground without being mown down by traffic on all sides? Every match day would be a bloodbath.

Please come up with something which doesn’t insult the intelligence or just do the only thing which MAY force the Council to really get their act together in a last desperate bid to keep us in the City. Vote for Kirkby.

Dave
17 Posted 16/08/2007 at 20:32:09

Dave Roberts

Most of us want to gather as much imformation as possible before we make the big decision
Lyndons right, your comments are both inaccurate and very tiresome, you’ve obviously made your decision, stop embarrasing yourself and please get off the pot

Greg Murphy
18 Posted 16/08/2007 at 20:41:48

Barry, fair point (although it is becoming a bit one track) but if 18-20 months ago I’d have told you that the 112th richest company in the world (Tesco) would soon be getting into bed with Everton to facilitate (I use that word most advisedly) a new stadium for Everton - regardless of location - you’d probably have said something like "oh yeah and I suppose we’ll suddenly start winning at Spurs every year!". My point is that, yeah, whilst the "no" camp accept that the funding issue has to be overcome, you can’t go pretending that Kirkby isn’t equally laced with gambles. Kirkby is a massive gamble. Perhaps even moreso than sitting tight for the moment. But the "yes" vote mindset seems to be "it’s funded therefore it’s good."

Steve Mc
19 Posted 16/08/2007 at 20:53:28

Col,
Tesco will not have 10000 car parking spaces, 1000 more likely, for a stadium that, due to it’s location, will require more people to go by car, me included. LFC have not seen the need for this level of parking for their 60000 seater stadium and with better links to the city centre our need may be even less than currently, based on the fact that the best public transport links in the region are a few minutes walk away.

Maybe LCC are actually getting their act together but a yes vote will not give us the opportunity to ever find out.

Hopefully that doesn’t insult anybody’s intelligence.

roy coyne
20 Posted 16/08/2007 at 21:04:12

Why oh why is there always a rush to ridicule by the yes voters is it because they are scared that perhaps they should have waited to vote as a lot of people suggested this may or may not be viable but lets see the figures before condemnation its as if any thing other than tescodome is a insult well I am waiting and having actually studied all the facts ect for Kirkby don’t think that’s the answer so lets just see if it is not right then we will soon find out

Mark Johnson
21 Posted 16/08/2007 at 21:14:13

There’s a an article about the pitfalls of this proposal by Keith Wyness on the official site. Of course people will argue that its one sided and biased, but he does make some very very valid points, such as where would the car parking be? who would pay for the new road layouts etc?

Not that I drive the match anyway I’d rather have a beer, but I’m being unselfish and thinking about my fellow blues!

Ray H
22 Posted 16/08/2007 at 21:15:36

Col

As far as car parking goes I know what I’ll be doing. I’ll drive up the M53, into the Wallasey tunnel, and when the traffic grinds to its inevitable halt (somewhere under the Mersey) I’ll abandon my vehicle and stagger through the carbon monoxide fumes to take up my seat in the stands, just in time to hear Kirkby’s National Anthem - ’Z-Cars’.

Dave Roberts
23 Posted 16/08/2007 at 20:43:20

Perhaps I am my own worst enemy on this one and I am happy to concede that some will feel my comments are ridiculous. I invited people to take a look at the site on Google Earth in the belief it would encourage a debate about the problems the site exposes .It did not. But, in any event, take a closer look at this drawing. The whole north side of the development is on the edge of a virtual cliff overlooking the road with no sign of means of access or exit to or from the stadium for something like 20% of its circumference. This will lead to dangerous congestion. It could be even worse unless provision is made for turnstiles UNDER the hotel in which case it could be something like 40%! More tunnels? Quite frankly I do not give a damn how other clubs have built their stadia over roads. Because others have done it does not make it right or acceptable. I do not look forward to a new Stadium for Everton being built by tunnelers.

Additionally, nowhere in these drawings is there any reference as to how supporters are supposed to access this stadium. It will have to be by bridges and they will have to be confined to the north west and the south east of the stadium owing to the configuration of the site and this will exacerbate the congestion problems I have already mentioned. These bridges will not only take up space on what are shown on the drawing as ’open’ areas but will inevitably cause dangerous human congestion as these confined areas will be the only sites of access and exit from the stadium site.None of this is apparent or dealt with in the drawing.It is NOT only a matter of whether thumbnails fit spaces. This option , in my view, would not pass the health and safety muster. An appropriate and safe stadium cannot be constructed on this site because it will not fit. The current plan is very tight in any case and does not take into account the problems of access and evacuation. As for the involvement of consultants in this project, consultants are paid for being consulted. They will do all the pretty drawings you like if you pay them for it. That doesn’t mean the project is do-able and does not mean they think it is do-able. Remember the Fourth Grace? Millions spent in consultancy and design fees and after all that the plug was pulled by the very same bunch who are pushing the loop! LCC! Rubbish it if you wish, but you are being conned. In the event of a No vote the Loop option will disappear faster than you can say Kirkby.

col
24 Posted 16/08/2007 at 21:40:56

OK, I accept we don’t know exactly how many parking spaces there will be at Kirkby, but it is going to be a lot more than the Loop could provide. And there is a huge potential for Park and Ride from various sites in and around Kirkby. As for public transport there is no comparison. Kirkby station is on the doorstep and buses run every few minutes from Liverpool.

dave
25 Posted 16/08/2007 at 21:39:45

Dave Roberts

Still embarrasing yourself ?
do you really believe theres anyone who hasnt had a belly full of you ramming your endless, half baked,Ill imformed and at times half witted, opinions down our throats ? We’re all big boys n Girls here and thus capable of deciding - without the assistance of some wannabe architect - as to weather we’re being conned or not, I wish you would disappear faster than I can say kirkby

Raoul Duke
26 Posted 16/08/2007 at 22:01:24

Is it not fair to suggest the loop would be a tight enough squeeze? At least the guy brought something to the table to illustrate his point. Why’s everyone so quick in the aggressive comments?

This debate has really degenerated over the last few days.. it’s shocking.

I just wish this fucking vote was over now, whichever way it happens to go.

Gavin Ramejkis
27 Posted 16/08/2007 at 22:11:54

Ray H have you ever been to Old Trafford recently to watch Everton play Man U? That’s 70,000 going to and from the match and the M60 right next to the Trafford Centre comes to a halt, yes together with shopping and commuting traffic but that doesn’t stop it carrying on, poor argument.

dave
28 Posted 16/08/2007 at 22:14:15

Raoul

your right mate, I appologise to Dave Roberts for my agressive response, he is entitled to make his point, but how many times is he going to make it ? and how many time will he tell us we’re being conned ?
Still as I said, your right I’m ourra here

Greg Murphy
29 Posted 16/08/2007 at 22:41:48

And this is the point: the fuller info about the Loop will only - and can only - emerge over the next five to six weeks, as and when it’s available on the drip. But of course, we’ve only got one week haven’t we? Because we got railroaded into a vote the moment the exclusivity with Tesco finished. So Bestway, HOK, WSP are racing against an 11th hour clock that’s been arbitrarily set by Wyness. Now okay, you may say that Bestway had nine months to firm this up a bit more. Well, Bestway say they wouldn’t and they couldn’t. They wouldn’t spend too much time on it because they were never sure they’d even be allowed to speak to Everton. And they couldn’t because they simply weren’t privy to what Everton would want from a package or even what EFC could bring to the table. That changed in late July. However, Bestway have still only had four weeks since EFC/Tesco exposed the Kirkby "package" to get things going. But of course, with one week left, it’s not enough to persuade people because there are still too many imponderables. And EFC knew that this would be the case from the moment Robert Earl - note, not Keith Wyness - at Bill Kenwright’s behest no less rang Bestway on or about July 26th. Now, you either believe that little morsel is true or you don’t. If you do, then ask yourself why Earl would break club policy, in effect, to enquire about another option when EFC’s official line was "no Plan B". The club knew they could have delayed this ballot. They chose not to. Up to you to decide why. Remember, it’s only the 11th hour because EFC say it is.

David Barks
30 Posted 16/08/2007 at 23:02:53

No, sorry Greg, but LCC have known we were looking for a stadium before we entered into the exclusivity period. It was no secret. They sat on their hands and did nothing for us, all the while working with that other club with their stadium move. They ignored Everton, like a neglectful spouse, and are now going to lose it because Knowsley came in and is willing to work with us.

Greg Murphy
31 Posted 16/08/2007 at 23:10:45

No, sorry, David, you’ll notice I studiously avoided the words Liverpool, city and council. For a reason. And yes, trust me, I know all about Everton’s history with LCC. And so does EFC. The fact is that KW said at the AGM that the club had entered into exclusvity with Tesco and it would last four, possibly five months. The reality is that it lasted much longer. I was at that AGM and, although I’m anti-Kirkby because it’s just not a suitable location for EFC (I couldn’t care less about boundaries) I was delighted, as a long-time BK fan, to hear about the vote. Very Everton, I thought. But like most other people there that night, I assumed that the exclusivity would finish, then EFC would explore other options that may have come to the table in the interim (like any sensible business) and then we’d take a multi-option ballot. Maybe around AGM time would have been politically ideal IMO. The fact remains that it’s only the 11th hour because EFC say it is. As far as I’m concerned, midday on 23/8/07 is just a minute in time. As far as EFC is concerned it’s fork in the road time. For ever.

Lyndon
Editorial Team
32 Posted 16/08/2007 at 23:16:11

David Barks: "LCC have known we were looking for a stadium before we entered into the exclusivity period"

That?s true, David, but what could they really do other than put forward potential sites, which they did? Is it up to LCC to find commercial partners and investors on Everton?s behalf? Just how much are they expected to do for the club in that regard?

And were LCC under the impression that they would get the chance to investigate sites in the City after the exclusivity deal finished and Everton had one solid option on the table by which to compare?

I don?t know the answer to that one, I?m merely posing the question, and I'm not looking to absolve anyone from blame. It just seems to me that it's much easier to point fingers and assume the worst because they're politicians. As Greg says, LCC have only had the Kirkby yardstick by which to go for the past three months and they?ve come up with a partner that looks to be able to rival what is on the table from Tesco.

If it is all political bluster and half-arsed promises designed just to derail the Kirkby Project, the club could have found that out quickly enough by delaying the vote, entering into detailed discussions with Bestway and allowed them to undertake a full feasibility study.

Greg Murphy
33 Posted 16/08/2007 at 23:49:19

And leaving aside the dual-standards of LCC concerning Stanley Park: just consider the timetable from Easter 2000, when Millennium House offered EFC one of the most sought after pieces of real estate in the UK, namely the Kings Dock (complete with a co-funding promise). For a full three years Everton managed to embarrass itself before a city and a nation before LCC finally had to call time in mid 2003. For the next two years EFC effectively embarked on a civil war. It?s really only been since spring 2006 that the waters of EFC have suitably calmed and the ?stadium question? has been fully back on the agenda. And for the last 18 of those months, by their own admission, EFC have been in negotiations with Tesco (Leahy has admitted he hoped that early discussions would lead to EFC being based around Scotland Road, presumably as part of Tesco’s development under Project Jennifer - a 115,000 sq. ft superstore) and the last nine of those have been locked into exclusivity talks concerning Kirkby. And we are where we are now. But to suggest that a badly stung LCC should have been scouring round for a self-imploding EFC in the years after the Dock fiasco is a little rich. God, we had three CEOs in six months! Yep, LCC (effectively) screwed EFC over Stanley Park. 1.0. Then EFC equalised regarding King?s Dock. If EFC is now cutting its nose off to spite concerning Bestway (when the likes of HOK and WSP) are waiting in the wings then we really are lame.

Gerard Madden
34 Posted 16/08/2007 at 23:49:01

Yes of course it’s a fact that Robert Earl under instructions from Bill Kenwright contacted Bestway on July 26th.

Really the bull peddled by some on here is hilarious....and desperate. Isn’t it funny too how some of the ’no’ people are downplaying the vote now as a sort of none-to-important thing really, when to most voters and the club it’s a simple case of if it’s a ’yes’ we’re off to Kirkby - If it’s a ’no’ we’re not off to Kirkby and other options will have to be looked at. Simple really.

Greg Murphy
35 Posted 17/08/2007 at 00:00:37

Well, you’ve obviously got web access Gerard. Why don’t you do a little digging and asking? Bit of lateral thinking will tell you what to do. Meantime, know this: you might not agree with me; but I don’t peddle "bull".
And as for downplaying the vote into something "none too important", you couldn’t be further from the truth. I happen to think next Thursday might well go down as one of the top five most critical days in EFC’s history.

Ray H
36 Posted 17/08/2007 at 01:31:04

Gavin Ramejkis

I?m glad you appreciate my point.

The Trafford Centre has insufficient parking capacity at its busiest times, hence the backing up of vehicles on to the M60.

I would hazard a guess that if Everton were to adopt the ?Loop?, then more supporters, especially those living on or south of the M56/M53 corridor, would choose to approach the ground via the Wallasey Tunnel, rather than trek across Liverpool?s streets.

Now, queuing on the M60 trying to get into the Trafford Centre might be a little unpleasant, owing to the nearby sewerage works, but that would be nothing to potentially queuing in the tunnel if Everton did not come up with adequate parking facilities on the other side.

?Park on the Wirral? I hear you say. Well, if only, say, 20% of supporters arrived via the Wirral, that would require approximately 200 park + ride bus journeys within about a 90 minute period leading up to a game ? potentially a logistical nightmare.

I?m afraid life is all about compromises. Not many of us drive around in our dream car, we have to make do with something a lot cheaper, and a lot more practical.

Lyndon
Editorial Team
37 Posted 17/08/2007 at 06:11:23

Gerard, I?ll save you the trouble of digging and point you this way. FFS, must everything be so divisive in this debate?

Ian Turgoose
38 Posted 17/08/2007 at 10:17:57

Even if we believed that a viable 50,000+ Premier League stadium would fit on the loop site, the one big question remains.

Who the hell is going to pay for it?

Not one person from the loop camp has ever answered this, all we get is ’just forget about the money part of things and look at the pretty pictures’- what rubbish.

The fact is that anyone could come up with a new proposed stadium, get an artists impression drawn up and say hang on a minute we need to look at al the options. But if there isnt even a suggestion of a funding package to deliver it how are we supposed to take it seriously?

Show me the money!

Matt Coulson
39 Posted 17/08/2007 at 10:27:33

Guys, guys, a little decorum please. We all agree to disagree tis the Everton way, we unite behind the team and stop all this bickering about something which in fairness we wouldn’t ordinarily have a say on. How many of you get to decide on where Asda puts its supermarkets? Not me i know! ven though i shop there on a more regular basis than my Goodison trip ever other week.

it seems to me that this subject is just getting to emotive, and knee jerk statements like check out the site size (thumbprint) and the equally unfounded statements of the pro loop camp, suggesting that we need to dismiss Kirkby before taking a look at something else is just not worthwhile.

Don’t dismiss the Loop, don’t dismiss Kirkby.

If Bestway and LCC are serious about the Loop site and its funding then a proposal will be forthcoming, Our vote on the stadium issue is not binding. If we vote yes to Kirkby it doesn’t mean the board will then go ahead with it! it just means they will progress further in their partnership with Tesco and KBC.

Lets just stop all this bickering and fighting trying to turn someone to your point of view. We all have different views, I am sure that the banner that unites us all "EvertonFC" can deal with the diversity of viewpoints.

Andy Callan
40 Posted 17/08/2007 at 12:28:21

WHO GIVES A FUCK WHERE THE STADIUM IS AS LONG AS WE GET ON. VOTE ’YES’ AND LETS GET OUT OF GOODISON I SAY.

Andy Callan
41 Posted 17/08/2007 at 12:28:21

Fuck LCC - they are all knobheads. Do they think that they are gunna get our attention by offering this shit alternative to Kirkby? No transport or parking - twats. They should have backed the dock proposal and that is as simple as that. B y moving to Knowsley we can be finally rid of that gang of idiots.

Fuck the Loop.

pfs
42 Posted 17/08/2007 at 15:25:13

Lookup locations worldwide on satellitepictures easy by address?
http://www.picsfromspace.nl
A combination of Googlemaps API and thirdparty addressdata with address suggestion.

Also View trafficjamlocations in the Netherlands with thier length in graphics?
http://www.traffic2graphics.nl

Dave Roberts
43 Posted 17/08/2007 at 20:27:01

As I said, you were being conned.