The Mail Bag
Moyes debate
Comments (19)
Today's game left me scratching my head about DM's coaching. Surely he knew in advance that Reading have two wide men in Hunt and Seoul who are quite skilful and dangerous but the two Everton full backs were far too often miles away in the first half allowing those two to create too much pressure on Everton. That Reading scored when they did was no shock and as usual when Everton concede first they rarely win. One more criticism ? does he coach the rest of the team to play the high balls in to diminutve Johnson for some wierd reason?
Tom Bowers, Posted 18/08/2007 at 20:30:01
Comments
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Anthony Newell
2 Posted 18/08/2007 at 21:34:46
2 Posted 18/08/2007 at 21:34:46
Tom, if a side is winning Moyes likes to stick with that side irrespective of whether they are the correct ’tools’ for the job. It is only after a defeat that Moyes’s realises that maybe a better line-up/formation/tactics would have been more appropriate. Of course, by that point the chance of the three points have been and gone. I implore Moyes to become more progressive in his thinking, tactics and subsitutions but I don’t hold my breath. If it all comes off I would leave to see Fernandes, Baines, Pienaar, Yakubu start against Blackburn but will it happen? I doubt it. As another reader as correctly pointed out Moyes doesn’t like change. If he can drop this aspect of his management style then he has the potential to be a very good manager but until then he’s holding the team back on certain occasions like today
Mark Bryan
3 Posted 18/08/2007 at 21:44:32
3 Posted 18/08/2007 at 21:44:32
What an utter pair of J Arthurs you are Mike and Ant.One defeat and you are calling into question David Moyes.
I bet that you wouldn’t have done this had we scraped a draw.
It is easy to criticise with hindsight, but I can’t recall seeing your reservations about our manager his methods or systems after the spurs game.
David Moyes obviously operates a system which is understood and liked by our players, ie win and you stay in the team.
Obviously computer managers like yourselves do not have to deal with players ego and pride and therefore you suggest change every week to cope with the opposition.
Whatever happend to the notion of let the opposition worry about us?
I suggest you study endless rotation by Snr Benitez last season to see where your theory goes.
Remember the players you manage dont exist, they are pieces of two bit code.
I bet that you wouldn’t have done this had we scraped a draw.
It is easy to criticise with hindsight, but I can’t recall seeing your reservations about our manager his methods or systems after the spurs game.
David Moyes obviously operates a system which is understood and liked by our players, ie win and you stay in the team.
Obviously computer managers like yourselves do not have to deal with players ego and pride and therefore you suggest change every week to cope with the opposition.
Whatever happend to the notion of let the opposition worry about us?
I suggest you study endless rotation by Snr Benitez last season to see where your theory goes.
Remember the players you manage dont exist, they are pieces of two bit code.
Anthony Newell
4 Posted 18/08/2007 at 22:07:05
4 Posted 18/08/2007 at 22:07:05
Mark, you seem to know more about the football games than me so I’ll leave you to that. I want Moyes to succeed, I want him to become a better manager, I want Everton to pick up points against inferior sides, I want Everton to nail shit sides at home, I want our best eleven on the pitch, I want things changed when things aren’t working. I don’t want Everton to get caned again in Europe. I want Everton to live up to what is on the club crest. Christ, people just don’t get it
Mark Bryan
5 Posted 18/08/2007 at 22:14:20
5 Posted 18/08/2007 at 22:14:20
Anthony, I want the same as you, but Reading are not a shit side!
I understand your feelings but any rational blue would have looked at our first weeks fixture list and said I will settle for six points.
The thing is we would all have expected to loose the Spurs game and get something at Reading.
However football is unpredictable in the micro element.
And so you might confidently predict which half of the table we will finish in, getting game results right is almost impossible.
To prove my point the side we beat last Saturday, Wigan, were widely tipped to be relegated, tonight they top the league.
Does this mean that a team beating Wigan next week are good?
Our next home game is against Blackburn and they are very underated, so if we loose that one I fully expect the Moyes out brigade back on here from under their stones.
My point is respect and give credit to your opponents when it’s due.
I understand your feelings but any rational blue would have looked at our first weeks fixture list and said I will settle for six points.
The thing is we would all have expected to loose the Spurs game and get something at Reading.
However football is unpredictable in the micro element.
And so you might confidently predict which half of the table we will finish in, getting game results right is almost impossible.
To prove my point the side we beat last Saturday, Wigan, were widely tipped to be relegated, tonight they top the league.
Does this mean that a team beating Wigan next week are good?
Our next home game is against Blackburn and they are very underated, so if we loose that one I fully expect the Moyes out brigade back on here from under their stones.
My point is respect and give credit to your opponents when it’s due.
Anthony Newell
6 Posted 18/08/2007 at 22:43:25
6 Posted 18/08/2007 at 22:43:25
Mark, fair do’s but Moyes should have known that Reading would try to do what Everton have done to others ie play very tight to the man, close down, give little time on the ball. If Everton play in the same way then you have a kind of stalemate where one goal can decide a game. The point I am trying to make is that this fixture warranted a different approach in tactics. A more creative and attacking line up comprising Pienaar, Jagielka, Jagielka would have been more appropriate. Moyes had the tools to open up the oyster and get at the fleshy bit, he just needed to use them! I just don’t get this mentality whereby you should be grateful for the points aggregated over a number games. Beating Spurs doesn’t make me feel better about losing at Reading! In fact it makes me feel worse and the Spurs result is devalued in light of this capitulation. Sorry for being a fan that just demands more and more but I’m hungry for bloody success after being deprived of it for so long. I believe that we have the potential to do better if the manager can just blow off the bloody cobwebs a bit in his tactical thinking
Mark Bryan
7 Posted 18/08/2007 at 23:07:13
7 Posted 18/08/2007 at 23:07:13
Er, you have lost me there with your line up comprising Pinaar, Jagielka and Jagielka.
How does one lightweight unproven South African winger and a defensive midfielder with a human clone make us more attacking or likley to open up the opposition?
Moyes beds players in gradually he did this last season with Lescot, so why does anyone think that he would play an unfit Baines today for example over a proven Vallente?
I dont see your argument having any validity if you refuse to accept the circumstaces of each game and the quality of the opposition.
After all the league title is the most highly regarded prize because the team with the best agregate performance wins it.
How does one lightweight unproven South African winger and a defensive midfielder with a human clone make us more attacking or likley to open up the opposition?
Moyes beds players in gradually he did this last season with Lescot, so why does anyone think that he would play an unfit Baines today for example over a proven Vallente?
I dont see your argument having any validity if you refuse to accept the circumstaces of each game and the quality of the opposition.
After all the league title is the most highly regarded prize because the team with the best agregate performance wins it.
Anthony Newell
8 Posted 18/08/2007 at 23:26:21
8 Posted 18/08/2007 at 23:26:21
Mark, your just being pedantic now because of my typo. If that’s all you’ve got to go on in an effort to poo-poo my opinion to then I pity you, I really do. Oh, just a question for you: If Baines was unfit why was he on the bench? Even if he was 70% fit he would have done a better job than Valente who was a bloody liability today
Mark Bryan
9 Posted 18/08/2007 at 23:40:07
9 Posted 18/08/2007 at 23:40:07
Forget me being pedantic.
Explain how two untried players, one of them defensive would make us more of an attacking threat.
Also you ignore my main point which pointed out the hypocracy of your argument about agregate performances.
In that the league title is won by the team with the best agregate performance
Explain how two untried players, one of them defensive would make us more of an attacking threat.
Also you ignore my main point which pointed out the hypocracy of your argument about agregate performances.
In that the league title is won by the team with the best agregate performance
Anthony Newell
10 Posted 18/08/2007 at 23:55:40
10 Posted 18/08/2007 at 23:55:40
I’ll excuse you for being pedantic but won’t forget that and in answer to your questions:
1) Pienaar is not untried. He came on against Wigan and made the second goal. It was just what the doctor ordered at just the right time. Without his input the game could have easily ended in a draw. Moreover, he has shown enough in training and by what we saw in the Wigan game that he is fully capable
2) Jagielka can pass the bloody ball better than Hibbert (my sister probably could in her high heels). He is better going forward thus turning defence into attack. Hibbert, tackles, wins the ball then gives the fucking ball away again. Losing possession of the ball puts the side on the back foot once more inviting pressure
3) You miss my point I made completely. I was saying that losing against Reading is not somehow sweetened by the fact that we can say we got 6 out of 9. For the final time, I don’t give a flying fuck about what went on before we lost against Reading. We gained three points there last season and their side hasn’t changed that much. Three points dropped today takes the shine off the Spurs win
If you want to talk about aggregates then all the shitty losses and draws that we had against sides last season meant we ultimately finished lower down the table than we could have done. Wigan at home - draw, Spurs at home loss, i could mention a few more for you
1) Pienaar is not untried. He came on against Wigan and made the second goal. It was just what the doctor ordered at just the right time. Without his input the game could have easily ended in a draw. Moreover, he has shown enough in training and by what we saw in the Wigan game that he is fully capable
2) Jagielka can pass the bloody ball better than Hibbert (my sister probably could in her high heels). He is better going forward thus turning defence into attack. Hibbert, tackles, wins the ball then gives the fucking ball away again. Losing possession of the ball puts the side on the back foot once more inviting pressure
3) You miss my point I made completely. I was saying that losing against Reading is not somehow sweetened by the fact that we can say we got 6 out of 9. For the final time, I don’t give a flying fuck about what went on before we lost against Reading. We gained three points there last season and their side hasn’t changed that much. Three points dropped today takes the shine off the Spurs win
If you want to talk about aggregates then all the shitty losses and draws that we had against sides last season meant we ultimately finished lower down the table than we could have done. Wigan at home - draw, Spurs at home loss, i could mention a few more for you
Mark Bryan
11 Posted 19/08/2007 at 00:11:51
11 Posted 19/08/2007 at 00:11:51
I did’nt ask you to excuse me I for being pedantic about your mistake, I told you to forget it.
1 Tony Hibbert. Chapionship player who can’t pass water.
2 All my mates in Sheffieild say he is ok as a defender or in goal but rubbish in midfield. I have no idea about your sisters abillity, but she is probably better than Earl Barret.
3 You have completly lost the plot over agregates, you need to view the season as a whole not week by week,that includes wins draws and defeats.
Why are blues getting so uptight? we will end up like arrogant kopites if we belive all other teams must lie down before us.
1 Tony Hibbert. Chapionship player who can’t pass water.
2 All my mates in Sheffieild say he is ok as a defender or in goal but rubbish in midfield. I have no idea about your sisters abillity, but she is probably better than Earl Barret.
3 You have completly lost the plot over agregates, you need to view the season as a whole not week by week,that includes wins draws and defeats.
Why are blues getting so uptight? we will end up like arrogant kopites if we belive all other teams must lie down before us.
Santosh Benjamin
12 Posted 19/08/2007 at 02:35:35
12 Posted 19/08/2007 at 02:35:35
Yes...we are all back down to earth with a bang!
We could have easily won last night’s match.Agreed Reading played well and are no pushover but we let ourselves down.My player assessment is as follows.
1.Howard:Cant be faulted for the goal and had a generally good game.
2.Valente:Never had much confidence in him and that was proven last night...when Baines is fit,he should be our first choice
3.Stubbs:Generally ok game with no major mistakes.
4.Lescott:Good game as always...no major mistakes
5.Hibbert:Poor...went to ground too easily to allow the goal
6.Arteta:The magician also has his off days and last night was surely one of them..most corners and free kicks barely got over the first man...
7.Carsley:Did ok...think he should be our only defensive midfielder
8.Neville:Was poor till he played right back...either keep him there or sit him down to start
9.Osman:Did a lotta running and took a few adventurous shots(maybe coz he scored 2 in 2 already!)..better coming off the bench when we are back at full strength..till then..maybe he can start
10.Anichebe:Was not holding up the ball at all...should have come off at half time...woulda prevented his ankle injury
11.Johnson:Has somehow forgotten where the back of the net is...someone needs to remind him where it is before our next game
12.Subs:
a.Pienaar:Looked very good to me and caused Reading problems...should start in my opinion
b.McFadden:Good sub to have..unlucky with the goal attempt
c.Jags:Since he came on as the rest of the players were ready to trudge off..made no sense...
Do better against Blackburn next week...with or without new faces..COYB
We could have easily won last night’s match.Agreed Reading played well and are no pushover but we let ourselves down.My player assessment is as follows.
1.Howard:Cant be faulted for the goal and had a generally good game.
2.Valente:Never had much confidence in him and that was proven last night...when Baines is fit,he should be our first choice
3.Stubbs:Generally ok game with no major mistakes.
4.Lescott:Good game as always...no major mistakes
5.Hibbert:Poor...went to ground too easily to allow the goal
6.Arteta:The magician also has his off days and last night was surely one of them..most corners and free kicks barely got over the first man...
7.Carsley:Did ok...think he should be our only defensive midfielder
8.Neville:Was poor till he played right back...either keep him there or sit him down to start
9.Osman:Did a lotta running and took a few adventurous shots(maybe coz he scored 2 in 2 already!)..better coming off the bench when we are back at full strength..till then..maybe he can start
10.Anichebe:Was not holding up the ball at all...should have come off at half time...woulda prevented his ankle injury
11.Johnson:Has somehow forgotten where the back of the net is...someone needs to remind him where it is before our next game
12.Subs:
a.Pienaar:Looked very good to me and caused Reading problems...should start in my opinion
b.McFadden:Good sub to have..unlucky with the goal attempt
c.Jags:Since he came on as the rest of the players were ready to trudge off..made no sense...
Do better against Blackburn next week...with or without new faces..COYB
Mark Stone
13 Posted 19/08/2007 at 04:54:27
13 Posted 19/08/2007 at 04:54:27
Anthony did you watch the match? 1 - We got beat by one goal from a very, very good player.
2 - Hibbo did a good job on him to be fair ... and what a pass out to Arteta (who lost the ball lazily in his own half today a number of times)!
3 - Pienaar played pretty much the whole second half and looked off the pace.
4 - We hit the bar twice. If they?d gone in and we?d won 2-1 no-one would be whingeing!
2 - Hibbo did a good job on him to be fair ... and what a pass out to Arteta (who lost the ball lazily in his own half today a number of times)!
3 - Pienaar played pretty much the whole second half and looked off the pace.
4 - We hit the bar twice. If they?d gone in and we?d won 2-1 no-one would be whingeing!
Brian Noble
14 Posted 19/08/2007 at 09:11:49
14 Posted 19/08/2007 at 09:11:49
Truth is,if AJ had done what he’s paid for- ie. hit the back of the net from the rebound from Faddy’s cross/shot we would be celebrating ’a good point’from the Reading game.Last season, I was defiled on Toffeeweb for describing Johnson as a disappointment.I continue to believe that much of his ’selfless running’is of the ’blind alley’variety and opposing managers never cease to encourage their defenders ’to push him out wide’.Moyes is guilty of the failure to direct AJs talents to best effect.I continue to believe he is a limited manager who will take all of his ten year extended contract to ’get it right’...if ever.
Jarty Jones
15 Posted 19/08/2007 at 09:01:05
15 Posted 19/08/2007 at 09:01:05
Reading are good team (drew with utd , unlucky v chelsea) , they are much like our team who finished 4th , once ahead hard to beat , no matter how untidy and ugly they play . I was at yesterday?s game and have since watched it on the box , my impression , we missed Joey Yobo , if he?d have played we would have snuffed any threat out they made , ?cos Lescott would have been at left back and Hibbert would not have been drawn into the middle all the time leaving him time to block out hunt more effectively . Vic never turned up yesterday , Mikel was not at his best but got very little protection from the ref , their players were taking it in turns to foul him , I agree Nev didn?t start playing ?til he went to right back , and the team as a whole never started playing until Faddy and Pienaar came on . In the end we could have easily drew and might have won but I?m pleased with our start to the season and I?m convinced that with the proposed additions to the squad and reurn to fitness of Cahill , Yobo , Vaughan and Baines , we?ll be pushing for a top 4 place and if lady luck shines down on us possibly better , As far as David Moyes ? I wouldn?t swap him as our manager for any of them , just think back to when we thought it was a succesful season if we weren?t fighting against relegation on the last day of the season !now some are criticising him for 6 points from 3 games , 2 away from home against 2 of the better teams from last season , get real !!!
Brian Waring
16 Posted 19/08/2007 at 10:31:48
16 Posted 19/08/2007 at 10:31:48
I have to laugh at some of the remarks about Reading.Some people are accepting the defeat,because,Reading are a good side,so it’s not that bad.
Roody Miller
17 Posted 19/08/2007 at 10:53:54
17 Posted 19/08/2007 at 10:53:54
If, as you origionally said in the first place, Moyes changed the team to play Reading and they lost, you?d all be moaning he changed a winning side!!
Personally I would like Neville at rightback and Piennaar in the side (or more hopefully Fernandez - who most of you all said "forget Manny he won?t be coming, we got no money, let?s slag off DM, BK, KW etc etc.... moan, moan"), Nuno needs Baines to get fit and Victor is simply not good enough... yet (remember he is still young and should be loaned out when Vaughan is fit and the Yak has signed).
The side starts to take shape then.
Personally I would like Neville at rightback and Piennaar in the side (or more hopefully Fernandez - who most of you all said "forget Manny he won?t be coming, we got no money, let?s slag off DM, BK, KW etc etc.... moan, moan"), Nuno needs Baines to get fit and Victor is simply not good enough... yet (remember he is still young and should be loaned out when Vaughan is fit and the Yak has signed).
The side starts to take shape then.
Gerry Western
18 Posted 19/08/2007 at 11:08:59
18 Posted 19/08/2007 at 11:08:59
Like everyone else I was ecstatic about the Spurs result but hesitated to commit to the idea Moyes had become a tactical genius and that we are now top 4 contenders. The truth is, not a lot has changed since last season. Sadly although I believe we’ve bought well, not much point in improving the personnel if your reluctant to deploy them. Stubbs was awful for the goal he’s much too slow. I’d hoped Yobo’s injury would have created an opening for Jagielka, The difference was they had width in their side and constantly exposed us down the flanks. Valente and Hibbert were constantly on the back foot. Osman unfortunately will always do well against sides like Spurs but when faced with difficult opposition who close people down he doesn’t cut the mustard his performances in this respect often goes from the sublime to the ridiculous. The lack of width in the side often forces Andy Johnson into the channels and the opposition are quite happy to keep him there. Once again everything was channeled through the middle with little effect. Victor looked extremely leggy yesterday as did a few others after their exertions against Spurs hence the need for a change of personnel to freshen things up. Mc Fadden was the spark yesterday but sadly he and others were introduced far too late to make any difference. My concern is that Moyes like the board has no plan B which is an absolute necessity if we are to progress in Europe.
Aidy Dews
19 Posted 19/08/2007 at 12:02:09
19 Posted 19/08/2007 at 12:02:09
How come we lose one game to reading who to me are a well drilled organised team who alot of teams this season will find hard to beat ( Man UTD, Chelsea!!) and people start gettin on the backs of Moyes and the team?!! it was only through the week everyone was waxing lyric about what a great start Everton had made to the season after the Spurs result, i mean dont get me wrong i dont like losing and i was optamistic we?d get something from the game yesterday but im realistic to know that there will be similair away days ( Fulham, Portsmouth, Middlesbrough???) like yesterday through out the season, not too many i hope but there will be, dont forget,this is Everton remember!
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1 Posted 18/08/2007 at 20:30:22
Just when he appears to be learning from his previous mistakes, recognising that Beattie et al, was a disaster and now going for pace upfront and skill in midfield, he then takes his usual negative step backwards with regards to selection and tactics. I am grateful that we are moving forward but feel that a more professional approach to selection and a slightly more positive approach to substitutions and tactics, would move us forward quicker and with a few more highs than lows on the usual Everton rollercoaster.