The Mail Bag
Shame on you, Bill Kenwright
Comments (31)
I have been reading the Everton related messageboards almost every day for as many years as I can remember; I buy and read EFC fanzines; I listen to radio ?phone-in shows on Radio Merseyside and Radio City and occasionally the ?Legends? on Century FM; and of course I talk to other Evertonians on all matters Everton, but I have never felt as deflated and sad as I do now. Peter Johnson, Walter Smith, Late 93-94 season, the Rooney experience, being kicked out of Europe because of ?them?... none of these things made me feel as sad as I feel now, watching Bill Kenwright and Keith Wyness divide us, turn us against each other, and cause us to argue and fight with such venom within our own ranks. I hope we are not poisoned by this.
We are Evertonians, we are better than this.
By the way, I am a shareholder and Season ticket holder, and I have voted No purely on the basis that I cannot trust the people who ?run? my club to make decisions of this magnitude, when they are prepared to do this to us just to benefit themselves.
Shame on you Bill Kenwright.
Steven Flavin, Posted 20/08/2007 at 13:11:44
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David Barks
2 Posted 20/08/2007 at 14:28:27
2 Posted 20/08/2007 at 14:28:27
They have given the fans the vote on the matter, if they had just decided to move you would have crucified them for that. No, it is not them that is dividing the fan base, it is "NO" voters who call anyone who thinkgs the move is a good idea a "traitor". This type of language is dividing the fan base.
Brian Finnigan
3 Posted 20/08/2007 at 14:31:52
3 Posted 20/08/2007 at 14:31:52
David Barks.....I don’t think of you as a traitor (but I do reserve the right to think of you as making the wrong choice in this matter). I certainly do not agree that it is the NO voters who are dividing the fan base. Believe it or not those voting NO are just as integral a part of the Everton family as those choosing to embrace the Kirkby proposal and take no pleasure from any of this disharmony. If I don’t call you and yours traitors then you must not generalise about the NO voters and blame them for the mayhem that has been caused.
NO voters are thinking beings who have come to a different opinion about the merits of the only proposals placed in front of us.....nothing more or less. I have no hidden agenda and those who disagree with Kirkby have not resorted to wheeling out so-called big-hitters to try to blind the electorate with unsubstantiated figures and scare stories about Goodison falling down and the likelihood of non-league football in the near future if we don’t embrace the party line.
NO voters are thinking beings who have come to a different opinion about the merits of the only proposals placed in front of us.....nothing more or less. I have no hidden agenda and those who disagree with Kirkby have not resorted to wheeling out so-called big-hitters to try to blind the electorate with unsubstantiated figures and scare stories about Goodison falling down and the likelihood of non-league football in the near future if we don’t embrace the party line.
Dave Lynch
4 Posted 20/08/2007 at 14:51:02
4 Posted 20/08/2007 at 14:51:02
It is the yes voters. Who think everyone against the move is stupid and accuse them of living in the past. THEY ! are dividing the fan vote.
Barks. your statement was one of the most stupid i have read on here.
Barks. your statement was one of the most stupid i have read on here.
Steven Flavin
5 Posted 20/08/2007 at 14:52:30
5 Posted 20/08/2007 at 14:52:30
David Barks......Don’t tell me "if they had just decided to move you would have crucified them for that"
You don’t know me, or what I would have done.
Think about how you responded to my original statement, I never implied that you or anyone else was a traitor for voting Yes.
I stated that Kenwright and Wyness have succeeded in dividing us.
You have just proven my point.
You don’t know me, or what I would have done.
Think about how you responded to my original statement, I never implied that you or anyone else was a traitor for voting Yes.
I stated that Kenwright and Wyness have succeeded in dividing us.
You have just proven my point.
Percy Price
6 Posted 20/08/2007 at 15:13:58
6 Posted 20/08/2007 at 15:13:58
Of course they’ve divided us-simply by giving us the chance to vote on something they as a Board should have been big enough to decide on.Kenwright is far too keen ’to be all things to all men ’to stand up for what he believes in. On the otherhand, Evertonians never agree about anything and as one for 40 years I recognise that we’re the biggest load of moaners in the game.
Personally,I don’t give a stuff where we play as long as we’re up there with the best.All the other shit is for the Board to sort out!
Personally,I don’t give a stuff where we play as long as we’re up there with the best.All the other shit is for the Board to sort out!
Steve Claringbold
7 Posted 20/08/2007 at 15:16:35
7 Posted 20/08/2007 at 15:16:35
I do think the whole vote thing has been handled badly.
Obviously there was always going to be a divide in opinions and supporters at each others throats.
At the end of the day as in any debate there are going to be YES voters, NO voters and those who sit in middle trying to make sense of it all. I’ve swung from a Yes voter to a No voter and back many times. I finally decided, after much deliberation, to send my forms back with a No on. I may have made the wrong decision, I may not have. I just don’t know, but the supposed "deal of the century" does not look that good in my eyes anymore, especially since I’ve read more and more about the details in various media.
Obviously there was always going to be a divide in opinions and supporters at each others throats.
At the end of the day as in any debate there are going to be YES voters, NO voters and those who sit in middle trying to make sense of it all. I’ve swung from a Yes voter to a No voter and back many times. I finally decided, after much deliberation, to send my forms back with a No on. I may have made the wrong decision, I may not have. I just don’t know, but the supposed "deal of the century" does not look that good in my eyes anymore, especially since I’ve read more and more about the details in various media.
Steve Claringbold
8 Posted 20/08/2007 at 15:22:01
8 Posted 20/08/2007 at 15:22:01
Also, I do agree that the board should have made the decision.
This is the perfect get out clause with the vote, if it all goes tits up then they can turn around and say, "Well you lot voted for it."
This is the perfect get out clause with the vote, if it all goes tits up then they can turn around and say, "Well you lot voted for it."
David Barks
9 Posted 20/08/2007 at 15:15:08
9 Posted 20/08/2007 at 15:15:08
Okay guys, slow down. I did not say that all the "NO" voters were calling people traitors. I am talking about the ones like Tony Marsh, who speaks of "Yes" voters with such vitriol and hatred that it descends the debate into name calling and gets people extremely more angry than they should. Brian, I have read many of your posts and you do not do this, you debate people in a respectable manner, and I appreciate you for that. I’m sorry if you guys misunderstood, please take this explanation as a clarification and an apology. For the record, I believe that those "Yes" voters who say anyone who will vote no is holding the club back and will send us to the Championship is just as bad. My Grandfather is voting No, I’m voting Yes, we still talk and respect eachother as much as we ever have, but we both agree that the level of debate has been destroyed by the hatred at both extremes, which includes the very negative view of Kirkby and it’s residents. I know all about it, my family was relocated to Kirkby after the War from the city, along with most of Kirkby’s population, as has had to deal with the negative perceptions of the people who live there.
And Steven, read Dave Lynch’s response to me and tell me that what I wrote justifed his response. The blame is not squarely on any one set of people, it’s the manner that the entire debate has fallen into. It should be about what is best for the club, if you feel that leaving the city is the problem that’s fine, your opinion. But to call anyone who does not agree with this a traitor as Tony Marsh does, that is totally wrong, just as it is when someone tells you that you’re holding the club back and will be the cause of the ruin of Everton by voting No.
And Steven, read Dave Lynch’s response to me and tell me that what I wrote justifed his response. The blame is not squarely on any one set of people, it’s the manner that the entire debate has fallen into. It should be about what is best for the club, if you feel that leaving the city is the problem that’s fine, your opinion. But to call anyone who does not agree with this a traitor as Tony Marsh does, that is totally wrong, just as it is when someone tells you that you’re holding the club back and will be the cause of the ruin of Everton by voting No.
Dave Lynch
10 Posted 20/08/2007 at 15:41:00
10 Posted 20/08/2007 at 15:41:00
Barks. I am a no voter, but have never called anyone a traitor.
We all have our reasons and mine are my own.
Apologies if i got the wrong end of the stick.
Maybe your sarcasm or irony or whatever point you are trying to make was lost on me.
We all have our reasons and mine are my own.
Apologies if i got the wrong end of the stick.
Maybe your sarcasm or irony or whatever point you are trying to make was lost on me.
Marc R
11 Posted 20/08/2007 at 15:42:44
11 Posted 20/08/2007 at 15:42:44
Barks here you go again with your ’me, my family and the war etc’... something must be wrong though you havent mentioned your wifes involvment in american politics - im sure you could work it in using the vote-rigging angle!
David Barks
12 Posted 20/08/2007 at 15:51:37
12 Posted 20/08/2007 at 15:51:37
And here comes Marc R to show exactly the type of person I’m talking about. So many people in this debate bring up their family and their long time residence in Liverpool as a reason that they’re voting No, why is it that only I am not allowed to bring up mine??? And since when was my wife involved in Politics????? That’s news to me, do you know something I don’t?
Ben Halliwell
13 Posted 20/08/2007 at 15:52:14
13 Posted 20/08/2007 at 15:52:14
From what I’ve read on here Tony Marsh hates everything to do with Everton.The Chairman’s no good,The Chief Exec’s a wanker,the manager’s clueless and for the most part the team don’t perform.Who listens to pricks like him?Just make your own mind up and vote accordingly!
Steve Claringbold
14 Posted 20/08/2007 at 16:01:24
14 Posted 20/08/2007 at 16:01:24
Marc, surely your response proves the whole point of the thread.
Chris Jones (Wakefield)
15 Posted 20/08/2007 at 16:09:07
15 Posted 20/08/2007 at 16:09:07
Excuse me, but how are those in charge of the club actually to blame for the fact there are people on this site, and elsewhere, who have a propensity to sling insults back and forth? And before anyone asks, yes I believe the insults are coming from both "Yes" and "No" camps.
You might as well accuse DM of deliberately splitting the fanbase and setting us at each others’ throats on account of results so far this season. Just go look at some of the bile expressed in one or two recent discussion threads on the subject.
The club has presented the fanbase with a choice. We might not like the options on the table, but those options and the thinking behind them is not the reason for the unpleasantness. That is down to the fact that some people sadly appear incapable of conducting a mature debate.
You might as well accuse DM of deliberately splitting the fanbase and setting us at each others’ throats on account of results so far this season. Just go look at some of the bile expressed in one or two recent discussion threads on the subject.
The club has presented the fanbase with a choice. We might not like the options on the table, but those options and the thinking behind them is not the reason for the unpleasantness. That is down to the fact that some people sadly appear incapable of conducting a mature debate.
Roy coyne
16 Posted 20/08/2007 at 16:44:31
16 Posted 20/08/2007 at 16:44:31
The more that I read on this subject the more I despairs cant people accept that the people voting for the opposite to them are doing so because right or wrong they believe its in the clubs interest to vote that way. I have voted no but dint feel any animosity to the yes voters misguided or maybe naieve butI repect threr right to choose
Jake Stevens
17 Posted 20/08/2007 at 16:55:35
17 Posted 20/08/2007 at 16:55:35
Just a side issue regarding the stadium:
Do you think that the delay with the Manny and Yak trasfers is because the club wish to unveil the both on decision day, to soften the blow for the ’no voters’ ??
ie - club is investing in the future etc..., the new stadium will allow us to attract players of this calibre. the usual Billy Bullshit statement ya know.
Surely this is an absoloute waste of resources when these players should be with the squad preparing for the Blackburn game. I kind of get the incling that this is why moyes snapped at the reporter regarding the issue and not because the 3rd party transfer has hit a snag.
Before anyone jumps all over me i dont have a vote so this is not an issue...
Do you think that the delay with the Manny and Yak trasfers is because the club wish to unveil the both on decision day, to soften the blow for the ’no voters’ ??
ie - club is investing in the future etc..., the new stadium will allow us to attract players of this calibre. the usual Billy Bullshit statement ya know.
Surely this is an absoloute waste of resources when these players should be with the squad preparing for the Blackburn game. I kind of get the incling that this is why moyes snapped at the reporter regarding the issue and not because the 3rd party transfer has hit a snag.
Before anyone jumps all over me i dont have a vote so this is not an issue...
tom morris
18 Posted 20/08/2007 at 17:16:04
18 Posted 20/08/2007 at 17:16:04
Steven Flavin,
Sorry mate, but you sound like a right drama queen.
"Divide us, turning us against each other...." ? You’re being given a vote on whether you want to move to Kirkby or not. How many other clubs have done that ? Would you rather you weren’t give any say on it at all ?
You want to try listening to any radio phone-in or tune in to ’You’re on Sky Sports’ (actually, maybe not? any day of the week.
Every clubs supporters have differing opinions on everything. Players, tactics, whether the new 3rd kit is nice or not....
Get over it. Cast your vote and get on with your life.
What will people find to talk about when this whole bloody thing is over with ?
Sorry mate, but you sound like a right drama queen.
"Divide us, turning us against each other...." ? You’re being given a vote on whether you want to move to Kirkby or not. How many other clubs have done that ? Would you rather you weren’t give any say on it at all ?
You want to try listening to any radio phone-in or tune in to ’You’re on Sky Sports’ (actually, maybe not? any day of the week.
Every clubs supporters have differing opinions on everything. Players, tactics, whether the new 3rd kit is nice or not....
Get over it. Cast your vote and get on with your life.
What will people find to talk about when this whole bloody thing is over with ?
Steven Flavin
19 Posted 20/08/2007 at 16:19:09
19 Posted 20/08/2007 at 16:19:09
Chris.
It’s not just about people slinging insults back and forth, it’s about the fact that they (Kenwright and Wyness) have engineered a culture of suspicion and mistrust by not giving us all the relevant facts to enable us to make an informed decision, that in turn leads to people getting frustrated and agitated, and consequently people will believe that the opposing view can’t possibly be making the right decision because they don’t have all of the facts.
It’s not just about people slinging insults back and forth, it’s about the fact that they (Kenwright and Wyness) have engineered a culture of suspicion and mistrust by not giving us all the relevant facts to enable us to make an informed decision, that in turn leads to people getting frustrated and agitated, and consequently people will believe that the opposing view can’t possibly be making the right decision because they don’t have all of the facts.
Colin Malone
20 Posted 20/08/2007 at 17:43:21
20 Posted 20/08/2007 at 17:43:21
Kenwright has put the onus on the yes voters, added with the biased media circus on the pro kirkby move. He,s put everyone in a corner and he is no way responsible for the move to kirkby. because you voted yes. Lovable Bill Kenwright who ain,t got an enemy in the world.
Steven Flavin
21 Posted 20/08/2007 at 17:30:34
21 Posted 20/08/2007 at 17:30:34
Tom Morris: Your statements:
?You?re being given a vote on whether you want to move to Kirkby or not?
That sounds a bit blasé to me.
I and many others think it is the single most important decision in the history of EFC.
?How many other clubs have done that??
I am not interested in other clubs.
?Would you rather you weren?t give any say on it at all ??
If we had a board that thought out, planned, organised and carried out their business in a professional manner, we wouldn?t have needed a fans vote, but once we were given a vote, then we should have been given ALL of the FACTS, that is what is causing the division.
And finally, if you think "Every clubs supporters have differing opinions on everything. Players, tactics, whether the new 3rd kit is nice or not...." is as important as moving Everton Football Club out of the city it was formed in.
Then maybe you just don’t care enough.
I do.
?You?re being given a vote on whether you want to move to Kirkby or not?
That sounds a bit blasé to me.
I and many others think it is the single most important decision in the history of EFC.
?How many other clubs have done that??
I am not interested in other clubs.
?Would you rather you weren?t give any say on it at all ??
If we had a board that thought out, planned, organised and carried out their business in a professional manner, we wouldn?t have needed a fans vote, but once we were given a vote, then we should have been given ALL of the FACTS, that is what is causing the division.
And finally, if you think "Every clubs supporters have differing opinions on everything. Players, tactics, whether the new 3rd kit is nice or not...." is as important as moving Everton Football Club out of the city it was formed in.
Then maybe you just don’t care enough.
I do.
Brian Finnigan
22 Posted 20/08/2007 at 17:59:11
22 Posted 20/08/2007 at 17:59:11
Chris Jones (Wakefield)......you write:-
"The club has presented the fanbase with a choice. We might not like the options on the table but those options and the thinking behind them is not the reason for the unpleasantness. Some people sadly appear incapable of conducting a mature debate."
I am willing to engage you in a mature debate....here goes. Would you please explain to me your understanding of the choice that the Club presented us with or if you prefer your understanding of the options on the table. Please include in your answer (if you will) why you left out the word meaningful in your earlier posting. e.g. meaningful choice or meaningful options. The absence of meaningful in both cases is what is causing some of the anger and friction. Can you not understand that?
"The club has presented the fanbase with a choice. We might not like the options on the table but those options and the thinking behind them is not the reason for the unpleasantness. Some people sadly appear incapable of conducting a mature debate."
I am willing to engage you in a mature debate....here goes. Would you please explain to me your understanding of the choice that the Club presented us with or if you prefer your understanding of the options on the table. Please include in your answer (if you will) why you left out the word meaningful in your earlier posting. e.g. meaningful choice or meaningful options. The absence of meaningful in both cases is what is causing some of the anger and friction. Can you not understand that?
Chris Jones (Wakefield)
23 Posted 20/08/2007 at 18:35:32
23 Posted 20/08/2007 at 18:35:32
Brian, you seem to want to qualify what I write, when clearly it?s my sole prerogative to express what I am thinking. Whether you consider "meaningful" the choices laid before fans is your prerogative. Besides which, why could you not consider such a term was implicit in my post anyway! So, however, please, it?s not for you to demand I say more, or indeed try to put words in my mouth. I?m entitled to have my words to speak for themselves. Just as you are.
From your tone, however, it seems clear you believe I am pushing the "Yes" vote. Well, I’m not. I would not encourage anyone to vote either way because I myself am undecided (as I’ve already said elsewhere). More to the point, I am disenfranchised anyway!
Returning to the original point, no I do not believe that those in charge of our club have deliberately ?engineered? discord between fans with opposing views. While accepting Brian?s view that the prevailing confusion and lack of precise information has undoubtedly helped ferment discord, I think this has likely been a wholly unintended by-product of decisions made by the club as regards the management of information. As someone once said, ?Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence?. Interpret that one how you will ;o)
The only purpose to deliberately promoting discord would have been to entrench the views of an existing majority already squarely in the ?yes? camp. But how precisely to do that, and at what cost? Why should we expect they were clever enough to do this when, as some argue, they don?t have the brains to run the club in the first place? BK and KW get enough stick already. Would they really have adopted such a risky strategy for an uncertain ?gain?? I think not.
To close, as I?ve said elsewhere, after the dust settles we all continue as Evertonians. However, I am fearful that from here-on-in whatever one says on these forums will immediately invite attack from others - for no reason other than the fact (real or imagined) you took a standpoint contrary to them on Kirkby!
From your tone, however, it seems clear you believe I am pushing the "Yes" vote. Well, I’m not. I would not encourage anyone to vote either way because I myself am undecided (as I’ve already said elsewhere). More to the point, I am disenfranchised anyway!
Returning to the original point, no I do not believe that those in charge of our club have deliberately ?engineered? discord between fans with opposing views. While accepting Brian?s view that the prevailing confusion and lack of precise information has undoubtedly helped ferment discord, I think this has likely been a wholly unintended by-product of decisions made by the club as regards the management of information. As someone once said, ?Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence?. Interpret that one how you will ;o)
The only purpose to deliberately promoting discord would have been to entrench the views of an existing majority already squarely in the ?yes? camp. But how precisely to do that, and at what cost? Why should we expect they were clever enough to do this when, as some argue, they don?t have the brains to run the club in the first place? BK and KW get enough stick already. Would they really have adopted such a risky strategy for an uncertain ?gain?? I think not.
To close, as I?ve said elsewhere, after the dust settles we all continue as Evertonians. However, I am fearful that from here-on-in whatever one says on these forums will immediately invite attack from others - for no reason other than the fact (real or imagined) you took a standpoint contrary to them on Kirkby!
Brian Finnigan
24 Posted 20/08/2007 at 19:16:05
24 Posted 20/08/2007 at 19:16:05
Chris Jones (Wakefield).....in order to start a mature debate I wrote in the hope that you would see that my concern was that the absence of meaningful choice from the offer by the Club was the cause of the friction. To me the option of Kirkby or Everton stagnating, failing to obtain a safety certicate in the future, no plan B, etc. was not so much a choice as an ultimatum. Worse than that, it was an ultimatum disguised as a choice.
Chris Jones (Wakefield)
25 Posted 20/08/2007 at 21:20:42
25 Posted 20/08/2007 at 21:20:42
Thanks Brian, that’s clearer and I do now see your point (apologies if I seemed rather obtuse earlier). Fair’s fair, you make a valid point.
Gavin Harris
26 Posted 20/08/2007 at 22:37:37
26 Posted 20/08/2007 at 22:37:37
"none of these things made me feel as sad as I feel now, watching Bill Kenwright and Keith Wyness divide us, turn us against each other, and cause us to argue and fight with such venom within our own ranks. I hope we are not poisoned by this."
Mate you are a fucking idiot. This guy has given YOU the chance to vote on whether we move or not, how many other chairmen have done that?
You are depressed as much as you were in the dark days, are you mental?
New training ground, top class players, top class coach, competing for europe in the league, competing IN europe, new ground on the horizon.
You are crazy and you have a vote, how scary is that.
Mate you are a fucking idiot. This guy has given YOU the chance to vote on whether we move or not, how many other chairmen have done that?
You are depressed as much as you were in the dark days, are you mental?
New training ground, top class players, top class coach, competing for europe in the league, competing IN europe, new ground on the horizon.
You are crazy and you have a vote, how scary is that.
Steven Flavin
27 Posted 20/08/2007 at 23:06:03
27 Posted 20/08/2007 at 23:06:03
Gavin. I am not your mate.
Why are you calling me an idiot?
Can’t you have a reasonable discussion without resorting to such language and name calling?
Why are you calling me an idiot?
Can’t you have a reasonable discussion without resorting to such language and name calling?
David Barks
28 Posted 21/08/2007 at 03:39:34
28 Posted 21/08/2007 at 03:39:34
Gavin, just as I slate Tony Marsh for his remarks, I have to do the same to you. You don’t have to agree with Steven, but to start calling the guy names and say he’s crazy and a "fucking idiot" is just as shameful. Don’t agree with him, that’s fine, but it seems that people find it all too easy to resort to name calling on the internet, whereas if this discussion was in person, I’m sure it would get heated, but the same language would be held back a bit more. Everyone seems to have a bit more self confidence when they know there are no consequences for their language and the names they call people.
Gavin Harris
29 Posted 21/08/2007 at 08:47:30
29 Posted 21/08/2007 at 08:47:30
I am not one to call someone these types of names but when someone write such nonsense it makes you do such things.
He is blaming kenwright for a civil war becuase he gave us the vote when he is the sort of guy who would cane him if he did not give us a vote. Bill cant win.
As for comaparing me to Tony Marsh...what planet are you on??
He is blaming kenwright for a civil war becuase he gave us the vote when he is the sort of guy who would cane him if he did not give us a vote. Bill cant win.
As for comaparing me to Tony Marsh...what planet are you on??
Steven Flavin
30 Posted 21/08/2007 at 10:49:50
30 Posted 21/08/2007 at 10:49:50
Gavin.
You said: "He is blaming kenwright for a civil war becuase he gave us the vote when he is the sort of guy who would cane him if he did not give us a vote."
You don’t know me, therefore you can’t assume to know what I would do.
You seem to be fond of insulting people on this forum, do you have an ulterior motive?, or is it an illness, like tourettes?
You said: "He is blaming kenwright for a civil war becuase he gave us the vote when he is the sort of guy who would cane him if he did not give us a vote."
You don’t know me, therefore you can’t assume to know what I would do.
You seem to be fond of insulting people on this forum, do you have an ulterior motive?, or is it an illness, like tourettes?
Gavin Harris
31 Posted 21/08/2007 at 13:22:33
31 Posted 21/08/2007 at 13:22:33
"You seem to be fond of insulting people on this forum, do you have an ulterior motive?, or is it an illness, like tourettes?"
The only folk I have insulted is you and that is because of the nonsense you wrote in your inital message.
Its just cack. Point made. End of.
The only folk I have insulted is you and that is because of the nonsense you wrote in your inital message.
Its just cack. Point made. End of.
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1 Posted 20/08/2007 at 14:26:08
I just wish all Evertonians approached the debate in the same way.. Sometimes I feel like just giving up, waiting to this whole thing’s settled down a bit, then taking it from there... Even then, I fear for what this vote has done to us as the Everton ’family’.