The Mail Bag
Where do we go from here?
Comments (25)
After reading a post by Robert Llyod on how we could use the Tottenham Hotspur approach to team motivation I was interested to note the response of many Evertonians who came out in full blooded support for our manager.
I have to disagree with Robert's suggested use of tact to 'encourage' a manager to improve the team's performance (publicly demand a top 4 finish or else). Although I can empathise with his ultimate desire for Everton to push in to the top 4, to have a cup run, to qualify for and do well in European competition and to continue to develop the squad.
I agree with those who say that Moyesy has done a good job over the last 5 years and that compared with the investment made by other clubs such as Newcastle, Middlesbrough and Tottenham we performing better by comparison. However, what we need to do now is make the next step towards building a sustainable push for honours, season after season.
Yes Davey has dragged us back from the dark days of Walter Smith and we're all grateful for that, but don't forget what went before. Somewhere along the road we let our standards drop and we slowly began to accept what is in effect mediocrity. There is no doubt that the drop in standards has been 'organisation' wide. Look at the stadium fiasco we sit through now; the problems supporters have when trying to phone the club, the lack of trust and suspicion when we are linked with a player deemed 'too good' for Everton. Is it just me or does anyone else think it usually takes us longer than the average club to sign a player? Yes, if we get them in then everyone?s happy, but it?s the whole process that makes us look a bit unprofessional.
I'm not a doom monger and I don't feel I'm being overly critical. I feel that we are potentially on the crest of a wave which could take us places. If we get Fernandes and Yakubu, we will have one hell of a starting line-up and quality options on the bench. Whether we like it or not, we will have Moyes and the Board to thank for that. I just wish I knew what happens next because lingering with the excitement and enthusiasm is a feeling that something bad is going to happen.
So, I ask you to consider those who have called for improvement and progress carefully, as they only want what every other fan wants. The difference may be that they come out and say it with a zeal that some may find unpalatable. Critical analysis and constructive criticism are vital to improve; blind defence of the status quo is reprehensible at any level.
Stan Sheppard, Posted 22/08/2007 at 09:45:34
Comments
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Gaz Davies
2 Posted 22/08/2007 at 14:07:07
2 Posted 22/08/2007 at 14:07:07
The previous posting by Robert Lloyd was responded to, not with ’blind defence of the status quo’ but with realism.
There is nothing wrong with wanting Everton to win the league this year, but realistically that’s not going happen.
Nor is it realistic that you could call issuing ultimatums to the manager ’constructive criticism’.
The feeling of being on the crest of a wave but harbouring the notion of something bad about to happen is, whether you like it or not, pessimism. Something that Everton fans have become familiar with over the last 15 years or so.
The current manager and squad are making the right steps in building a club that doesn’t automatically invoke pessimism at every turn. Perhaps in another 15 years all Evertonians will be optimists, or even realists?
Critical analysis or constructive criticism are important processes in improvement but the posting by Robert Lloyd was neither. COYB!
There is nothing wrong with wanting Everton to win the league this year, but realistically that’s not going happen.
Nor is it realistic that you could call issuing ultimatums to the manager ’constructive criticism’.
The feeling of being on the crest of a wave but harbouring the notion of something bad about to happen is, whether you like it or not, pessimism. Something that Everton fans have become familiar with over the last 15 years or so.
The current manager and squad are making the right steps in building a club that doesn’t automatically invoke pessimism at every turn. Perhaps in another 15 years all Evertonians will be optimists, or even realists?
Critical analysis or constructive criticism are important processes in improvement but the posting by Robert Lloyd was neither. COYB!
Andy
3 Posted 22/08/2007 at 14:07:20
3 Posted 22/08/2007 at 14:07:20
I’m in total agreement that Moyes has worked wonders in his 5 years with us after inhereting a useless squad in terms of motivation, quality & team spirit and having few resources to work with.
The previous comment says that the top teams now are the ones who were best run in the 90s - this is inaccurate. With the exception of Chelsea who are owned by the second richest man in the world Man Utd, L’pool & Arsenal are the three most succesful clubs in the history of English football - their strength isn’t based on being well run in the 90s. They are the aristocracy of the game, we are in the next catergory along with Villa, Spurs & Leeds of big clubs who have had periods of success intermerged with periods of failure/disappointment but still retain a large support and due to thir locations in big cities large loyal fan bases
The previous comment says that the top teams now are the ones who were best run in the 90s - this is inaccurate. With the exception of Chelsea who are owned by the second richest man in the world Man Utd, L’pool & Arsenal are the three most succesful clubs in the history of English football - their strength isn’t based on being well run in the 90s. They are the aristocracy of the game, we are in the next catergory along with Villa, Spurs & Leeds of big clubs who have had periods of success intermerged with periods of failure/disappointment but still retain a large support and due to thir locations in big cities large loyal fan bases
Andy
4 Posted 22/08/2007 at 14:07:20
4 Posted 22/08/2007 at 14:07:20
I’m in total agreement that Moyes has worked wonders in his 5 years with us after inhereting a useless squad in terms of motivation, quality & team spirit and having few resources to work with.
The previous comment says that the top teams now are the ones who were best run in the 90s - this is inaccurate. With the exception of Chelsea who are owned by the second richest man in the world Man Utd, L’pool & Arsenal are the three most succesful clubs in the history of English football - their strength isn’t based on being well run in the 90s. They are the aristocracy of the game, we are in the next catergory along with Villa, Spurs & Leeds of big clubs who have had periods of success intermerged with periods of failure/disappointment but still retain a large support and due to thir locations in big cities large loyal fan bases
The previous comment says that the top teams now are the ones who were best run in the 90s - this is inaccurate. With the exception of Chelsea who are owned by the second richest man in the world Man Utd, L’pool & Arsenal are the three most succesful clubs in the history of English football - their strength isn’t based on being well run in the 90s. They are the aristocracy of the game, we are in the next catergory along with Villa, Spurs & Leeds of big clubs who have had periods of success intermerged with periods of failure/disappointment but still retain a large support and due to thir locations in big cities large loyal fan bases
Tony Marsh
5 Posted 22/08/2007 at 14:29:03
5 Posted 22/08/2007 at 14:29:03
John Lloyd says David Moyes has worked miracles at this club since he came here.Which one was that then?How about this for a miracle.Taking over Everton when they were 9 points adrift at the bottom of the table in mid November.First game in charge Liverpool at Goodison .We won 2-0< and Big Dunc scored his first goal for Everton.A goal which is now part of Everton folklore. We stayed up easy and 6 months Later we won the FA >CUP at Wembley Stadium beating the red hot favourites Man Utd in the final.
Thats a Miracle John.Nothing Moyes has done comes close mate.
Thats a Miracle John.Nothing Moyes has done comes close mate.
Dan Mckie
6 Posted 22/08/2007 at 14:35:12
6 Posted 22/08/2007 at 14:35:12
I think this is the 1st season that Moyes has had where we can say he has a relativly small but quality squad,this season will be a test for Moyes because its also the first time he has ever had any real cash to spend (£30m) and I think he will get it right,but,if he doesnt then there can be few excuses this time round!
Andy
7 Posted 22/08/2007 at 14:52:46
7 Posted 22/08/2007 at 14:52:46
Wasn’t Royle’s successes based on the sort of football which Moyes gets panned for by ceratin crtitcs on this website?
Wasn’t achieving CL qualification with that squad considered a miracle?
Wasn’t achieving CL qualification with that squad considered a miracle?
Stan Sheppard
8 Posted 22/08/2007 at 14:49:21
8 Posted 22/08/2007 at 14:49:21
Gaz: I said I disagreed with Roberts suggestion of using an ultimatum to inspire Moyesy, (2nd para) and I think he has done a good job since he took over.
The blind defence I referred to are those who refuse to ask anymore as he has done so well since he got here. Patience is no doubt the key and having heard that we have just agreed a fee with Boro for Yakubu I feel we will continue to improve.
The blind defence I referred to are those who refuse to ask anymore as he has done so well since he got here. Patience is no doubt the key and having heard that we have just agreed a fee with Boro for Yakubu I feel we will continue to improve.
Stan Sheppard
9 Posted 22/08/2007 at 15:01:26
9 Posted 22/08/2007 at 15:01:26
Your spot on Andy. The famous dogs of war!!
Tony Marsh
10 Posted 22/08/2007 at 15:11:21
10 Posted 22/08/2007 at 15:11:21
Just shows you how little some of our supporters know about the club< we follow.Dogs of war was the nickname at the time but if you think Joe Royals team played anything like Moyes,s sides you need your heads testing.Some of the best football ANY Everton side has ever produced was produced by Big Joes boys.
Spurs at Elland Road in the 1994 FA Cup semi final for one.The Andre Kanchelskis show at Anfield a year later was one of the finest football games we ever played.Tore them to shreds.How about the 7-1 win at Goodison over Southampton.When did aDM moyes side ever score 7.Then there was the 5 away goals st Sheff Wed in 1996 3 more for Andre.Kanchelskis.Fuck me I will be in tears if I carry on.Please dont insult my intelligence with the drivle that Joe Royals team played the shit Moyes,s side,s churn out.Its just not on.
Spurs at Elland Road in the 1994 FA Cup semi final for one.The Andre Kanchelskis show at Anfield a year later was one of the finest football games we ever played.Tore them to shreds.How about the 7-1 win at Goodison over Southampton.When did aDM moyes side ever score 7.Then there was the 5 away goals st Sheff Wed in 1996 3 more for Andre.Kanchelskis.Fuck me I will be in tears if I carry on.Please dont insult my intelligence with the drivle that Joe Royals team played the shit Moyes,s side,s churn out.Its just not on.
James Elworthy
11 Posted 22/08/2007 at 15:21:47
11 Posted 22/08/2007 at 15:21:47
On a limited budget Moyses has invested on the whole wisely, from the beginning in Yobo who has been a consistent and quality performer here at Everton. Cahill, Arteta, Lescott, Johnson, Martyn, all good buys. There has been wasted money on Beattie, VDM, and Simon Davies & as well as tricky Dicky but nothing compared to Houllier and Benitez’s waste of money French & Spaniards.Our limited funds would of been also wasted if Nugent came if the reports coming out of Portsmouth are to be believed. So on the whole the investment by Moyses on limited funds has been good. Neville has done a job, Baines, Pienaar, Manny and Yak when they sign will all the business, he is getting the best out of the home grown talent such as Vaughan, Anichebe, Osman, & Hibbert as well as the veterans Stubbs & Carsley. How much did Chelsea and Man Utd waste on Veron, Shevchenko, and now Nani appears to be a waste. Winston Bogards wages could of paid off a third world nations debt. I trust Davey he spends his money wisely, he may not be in Saks Fifth Avenue but he is now at least going to Selfridges instead of TJ Hughes with the current prices we are now paying for quality players
Stan Sheppard
12 Posted 22/08/2007 at 15:29:13
12 Posted 22/08/2007 at 15:29:13
This is what I was trying to get at when I posted. Tony has a right to point to the type of football we play and expect more just as others have a right to point to the fact that Moyes has done well in his 5 years.
Tony wants more and he makes no bones about it and this puts people on the defensive, who in turn defend Moyes to the hilt.
Maybe if both sides were a bit more reflective we could agree that Davy has done well but maybe now is our chance to move on?
After all we only want the best for Everton.
Tony wants more and he makes no bones about it and this puts people on the defensive, who in turn defend Moyes to the hilt.
Maybe if both sides were a bit more reflective we could agree that Davy has done well but maybe now is our chance to move on?
After all we only want the best for Everton.
Stan Sheppard
13 Posted 22/08/2007 at 15:37:10
13 Posted 22/08/2007 at 15:37:10
James, as I said before, I agree that Moyes has done a good job. Although the teams (bar Portsmouth) you have described as money wasters have also held every honour in domestic and European football at some stage in the last 5 years. They probably don’t care about the money they waste because they have the trophies in the cabinet. I get your overal point though. Moyes has generally spent well, especially with Martyn, Cahill, Arteta and Lescott who have been great signings for the club.
David
14 Posted 22/08/2007 at 16:04:15
14 Posted 22/08/2007 at 16:04:15
TM,Joe wanted rid of Andre Kanchelskis because of his poor displays(ask him).
If DM did the treble yu ould moan about missing out on a fourth cup!
If DM did the treble yu ould moan about missing out on a fourth cup!
David
15 Posted 22/08/2007 at 16:04:15
15 Posted 22/08/2007 at 16:04:15
TM,Joe wanted rid of Andre Kanchelskis because of his poor displays(ask him).If DM did the treble yu would moan about missing out on a fourth cup!
John Lloyd
16 Posted 22/08/2007 at 16:08:14
16 Posted 22/08/2007 at 16:08:14
Tony, Joe might of done something similar to Moyes had he not left the club, but he did leave the club and why.....the people running the clubs didn’t have a fucking clue, that continued while Walter was in charge (you wanna talk depressing? 6 centre halves in one team??) then in came Moyes and with a squad that was arguably the worst in our history he has shifted a lot of shite brought in some young talented players, and put us on a point of challenging the top sides again. If we won a cup then that would be brilliant but the bread & butter is the league & compare us now to 2001, thats a miracle mate in todays game with no mega rich investor. As for that aristocrats of the English game Andy, we were part of that you tit until mis-management at the top for too long & Euro Ban broke our best ever team up. The only exception is Chelsea!!
Andy
17 Posted 22/08/2007 at 16:36:46
17 Posted 22/08/2007 at 16:36:46
John - those three clubs have all constantly challenged for trophies whereas out history is short periods of success - 30s, 60s & 80s. We’ve also only ever had one decent European campaign in the thrity years of competition pre-heysel. I’m not trying to denegrate our history in th least but i don’t think i deserved the tit comment
Samantha Steel
18 Posted 22/08/2007 at 16:33:38
18 Posted 22/08/2007 at 16:33:38
Lets cut to the chase - This club is not one of the big four. Even the big six of twenty years is now obselete. We can challenge but cannot override the immidiate teams above us. of course chelsea success has all been financed and bought and without that they would more than likely be the efficient but hardly exciting side of ten years ago. Arsenal even without Henry will still be a force. They may even turn out to do better without him. Liverpool needs no explanation. I would rather not comment on them but in terms of recent success and being streets ahead of us is well evident. manchester United are still the biggest club in the uk, both in success and financial clout. Last years title success was even more of a surprise than leeds some 15 years earlier. Back to the current side and as others have pointed out Yes Moyes is undisputably the best manager of this (once great) club since the first time round of Howard. I sincerely liked Joe and had a lot of time for him and of course winning the Fa cup and surviving when all seemed lost was a great achievement. unfortuneatly with pride comes the inevitable fall and joe was sadly not able to repeat the heady heights and soon a relegation battle loomed soon after he went in March 1997. i will always remember being at a derby a month after when dave watson was in temperary charge and watching "fisticuffs" between fowler and unsworth which carried on into the tunnel. Its all the game is remebered for apart perhaps a superlative performance from our sadly departed Duncan. And as for our ukrainian friend I do agree that he was not the best of puchases but there was the odd occasion when we was the best thing since sliced bread. The win at anfield (how many times can you say that as an everton supporter) in 1995 as a prime example. To put it in the simplest terms let Moyes carry on with what he is doing. building a cost effective good but not great side with long term sensible signings. Be under no illusions - we are not going to win the title any time soon. The hazy days of the mid 1980s will get further away as the subsequent years pass. I cannot honestly say who wil win what come May, but there is a realistic chance that we can do something significant if not this season but within the next three years. And if indeed Yakubu signs any time soon and fernandes is reincluded in our first eleven then more power to us. Lets just keep it simple. A season is after all, like life a marathon not a sprint.
Mike Hunt
19 Posted 22/08/2007 at 17:11:12
19 Posted 22/08/2007 at 17:11:12
MARSH YOU NUMPTY! 1994 Semi at Elland Road...what planet are you on sunshine?? Get a grip will ya!
PL PL
20 Posted 22/08/2007 at 17:27:15
20 Posted 22/08/2007 at 17:27:15
Did we stay up easy the year Royle took over?? Didn’t we beat Ipswich with a jammy goal on the penultimate game of the season after them battering us and won the cup final that year?
Neil Pearse
21 Posted 22/08/2007 at 17:53:21
21 Posted 22/08/2007 at 17:53:21
If Moyes left Everton tomorrow he could take his pick of any other management job in the Premiership excepting the top four. And the clubs’ supporters and owners would be thrilled to have him.
Clearly a lot of other people in football rate Moyes a lot more highly than some of the posters on Toffeeweb.
Clearly a lot of other people in football rate Moyes a lot more highly than some of the posters on Toffeeweb.
Tony Marsh
22 Posted 22/08/2007 at 18:10:53
22 Posted 22/08/2007 at 18:10:53
typing error 1995 sorry
Steve Ferns
23 Posted 22/08/2007 at 22:38:35
23 Posted 22/08/2007 at 22:38:35
Big Joe had two good seasons and lost the plot and was rightly sacked. His football was dire and he had no idea how to manage a top football team or how to play good football. He was a small team mamanger (one of the best at it) and played real backs to the wall football, as typifed by the 95 cup win. our best player at the time was Limpar and Joe didn’t know how to use him. It was more through Limpar’s brilliance that we ever played good football rather than Royle’s tactics or coaching. Big Joe was a one trick pony and i was glad the day he went.
Tony Marsh
24 Posted 22/08/2007 at 23:31:33
24 Posted 22/08/2007 at 23:31:33
What the fucks Moyes with out Arteta Steve. A Scottish Trappatonni????????
Steve Lyth
25 Posted 23/08/2007 at 11:42:51
25 Posted 23/08/2007 at 11:42:51
Stevie Ferns, big Joe did not get the sack, Johnson thought he had resigned and Joe thought he was going to get sacked, read his book for further clarification on this subject.
Great manager big Joe and the books a good read.
Great manager big Joe and the books a good read.
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1 Posted 22/08/2007 at 13:50:47