No they’re not just wait for the flow of rubbish to follow.

Asked about this the other day, to be honest I thought it had not gone ahead. I must have just walked passed and not noticed. As long as its not abusive leave them to it they have a right even if I disagree with their fight.

Just out of interest what on earth is wrong with Wyness I personally think he’s doing a good job, since he’s arrived the turnover has done nothing but go up and that’s not all to do with the increased TV revenue. Before he arrived it must have been the most badly run club in the premiership he’s done rather well in the short time he’s been there. Don’t forget the other buffoon who was considered the best CEO in football and he lasted about 4 weeks.

Listen Colin,

The tone of your post is one of a smug dick head. I am nothing to do with KEIOC and I don’t even agree with some of their gimmicks they use, however I do admire them for their persistence and unwillingness to lie down when many of us have. We need people like that. I voted no in the Kirkby poll, but the majority voted yes - so I will stand by the result of this. Any blue who voted no and even many who voted yes, still feel a little unsure and un-easy about what is exactly going to happen with the future of our beloved Everton in Knowlsey-if it materialises. KEIOC are simply airing their views a best they can without taking away from supporting our team. If they would have stood outside the Royal Oak, pint’s in hand chanting before the game what would you have said then?
I have sympathy with the cause, and so do many friends and colleagues of mine so do not pretend that there are 36,000 people "turning their backs" and fully supporting the arrogant Wyness-I dont, and I would love to see him out.

Have a bit of a respect Colin, and think about what they are doing it for. Is it for their own health or benefit? No it is in the name of EFC. Could we say the same about Wyness? I think not....

In many ways yesterdays ’non-protest’ on top of last weekends poorly attended meeting in the city centre has done more for closing the ’no’ campaign than even the ERS democratic ballot did. I’m glad the club can finally move on now and hopefully (for 99% of us) the debate will become more focused on how to make the Kirkby project even better than the very good project it appears to be at present.

Dear Danny,

I would accept your point if these were random Evertonians with no axe to grind. However the KEIOC and its backers... same old characters. This to them is just another "play."

No hard nosed corporate type is ever going to be the fans bestest freind. He has a job to do, and is doing it well.

Shame the people behind KEIOC can’t be clear about their focus or motives, Mr Wyness is crystal clear as are the board.

How can I respect these people who I believe are putting their personal grudges before the best needs of the club as was clear at the protest?

Along the way there are other fans who are genuine who deserve a lot of respect, unfortunately they share a platform...

Surely it would be now be a better task to concentrate on ensuring we make the best of the Kirkby issue with contructive campaigning for the best features and fit out possible?

Unfortunately, KEIOC must gat their message right!

I have no time for Wyness or Kenwright in many respects, but removing them is missing the point completely.

I voted No, but I would not have joined in with this nonsense. If you’re going to demonstrate, and I admire your persistence, GET ORGANISED and for God’s sake get the message across. It’s very simple:

’ DON’T MOVE TO KIRKBY - FIND US A NEW HOME IN OUR CITY!’

Otherwise you only undermine yourselves, and any hope those of us that don’t think Kirkby is the right answer, to the point where nobody will listen.

gerard to suggest 99% of people are for the move is wide of the mark my friend, half are against it half are for it, the fact that its split the fan base tells its own story really.

Mr Lapham,

I am a supporter of KEIOC, and feel more people need to get behind this group. Something went wrong with that ballot, nearly 11,000 not taking part in the vote, you have to ask yourself was this ballot corrupt? I think it was.

Colin, I think your observations are totally unfair, "KEIOC think they are real Evertonians and the rest of us are passers by" when have KEIOC declared this ?
Come on fella be fair, all of the lads behind KEIOC are Evertonians no different from the rest of us with the exception that want to fight on with regard to our eventual home.
Whats so wrong with their aims ?

Message to Toffeeweb - Should not this short but truthful and let’s be honest ’brutal’ account of what happened yesterday get some sort of larger profile at the top of the home page.

As soon as Tony Marsh and the like who represent a small minority of fellow blues on the stadium issue do one of their ’anti’ or let’s just say ’slanting towards being sceptical of the Kirkby move’ articles or letters they get published and ’bigged up’ by the site - just like anything the tiny and shambolic KEIOC promotes gets ’bigged up’. The people have spoken not only through the ballot (and by those who didn’t even bother to vote) but by not turning up last week at the casa or bothering with the protest yesterday. Time for Toffeeweb to stop pandering to a small vitriolic minority.

Andy - I never said 99% of blues support the move to Kirkby, I did imply though that 99% of blues think it’s time to move on now. Do you know how many bothered with the protest yesterday?

Ray Burns

At times it is not the message that people disagree with but how the message is delivered.

Gerard, you?ve obviously got a hatred towards no voters, what you're suggesting is only putting up positive articles on the Kirkby move and suggest all those that didn?t vote are in favour of the move. It could also be said that 11000 people didn?t vote because they haven?t got complete faith in the move. KEIOC are the only people trying to get a better deal than what's on offer, something OUR BOARD should be doing.

Gerard im not sure how the protest went to be honest or how many turned up.

Gerrard,

Did you attend the Casa last week, ??? it was full, and people were getting turned away because there were to many in the hall.

Are you sure you were at the right venue, if you bothered to go.

Ronny Pugh - less than a couple of hundred I heard, some people think that was great. As far as I know hundreds weren’t turned away because it was full.

I suppose you think hundreds turned up for the protest yesterday? Or thousands?

It’s people like Ray Burns who let KEIOC down time and time again.

"Corrupt ballot" - Love it. Since when has the integrity of any of the senior management been in question?

All this suspicion and mistrust just baffles and astounds me. As far as I can see it (maybe too simplistically) the board have come to their decision, based on what they think is BEST for the club and those that disagree have a short space of time to "find something else".

In my opinion, what point does a protest serve? Get out there, talk to the experts and see if Everton FC can be kept in our city. KEIOC - the aim is in the title (isn’t it?)

Colin Laphan talks of people with an agenda...... ask anyone in the Shareholders association which of their members appears to have an agenda....... I think most would mention his name. Likewise, can he tell us who in KEIOC has an agenda, and with what personal motive? I have met all the members of KEIOC, and none have any direct reason for wanting to keep EFC in the city other than their own personal judgement and preference for what they feel is best for the club, nothing else. I am prepared to be corrected on this, so please enlighten us. Seems perculiar that this particular character remained so quiet during the vote waiting to find which way it went before reaffirming his undying loyalty. People are continually trying to paint a political or even militant image of this group, and it couldn’t be further from the mark. The whole protest angle is completely new and almost alien to them, as may have been shown yesterday. Also Colin, while you’re there..... you’re in KW’s pocket, can you tell me the actual final cost for the club of the Kirkby option? I’ve asked a Gerard and others dozens of times, and they still haven’t answered me.

I have no great desire to leave our belovered Goodison but I am sure we need to build something new...where?...Merseyside is a good start...Liverpool post code is better....but other than that..not really concerned. I have spoken on a number of occasions to our Peoples Champ Ian Mac about this. The conversation usually revolves around the passion of the keioc and like minded blues. I cannot accept, however, that NO voters care more than YES voters...its just a ridiculous notion. The ballot left us with three clear view points. The majority voted YES (to moving rather than kirkby...probably)....The very sizeable NO voters were still the minority. Finally the NO SHOWS very probably didnt vote for a reason...whatever happens just "wasnt my fault mate....I never voted for/against it".
More importantly to me is the fact that most have just moved on...accepted the club intends to move to kirkby. So whether it is acceptable to NO voters or not....a lot of those people will have moved on to. I think demands for Keiths or Billys head(s) are just alienating the keioc boys....a different tactic is needed guys!
PS finally as I said to Ian Mac....dont expect its a done deal!!

"can you tell me the actual final cost for the club of the Kirkby option? I?ve asked a Gerard and others dozens of times, and they still haven?t answered me."

Well can you quote me a building of this size that’s come in bang on it’s orginal budget, probably not. You’ll get the exact price when it’s finished. That unfortunatly is the way the building operates and no one will do it for a fixed price after Wembley.

To all those who would belittle what KEOIC are doing and their protest after the game I would ask you what problem do you have personally with that protest? It was conducted in a very careful manner with no afront or public order offence. I am dumbfounded by the smugness of so many that continue to drone out the same old tripe; local pub owners, militants, thick drunken yobs, the list is as tedious as listening to the yes voters gloatings. The KEOIC protests and ongoing campaigners are all individuals doing this off their own backs without their own media support, well spoken business backer publications etc. They all have a single goal of trying to keep Everton Football Club, a team we ALL support within the city of Liverpool.

Dyslexic typing apologies its KEIOC not KEOIC as I typoed twice

I?m certainly not against KEIOC if they do come up with the backers and a decent site for a viable alternative in Liverpool I?ll sign on the dotted line.

Trying to block our only current workable option and shouting Wyness out seems to be missing the point completely and doesn?t do them any real favours.

If you think this debate is ugly go to the grand old team forums and check out some of the stuff on there.
I cannot believe that so many people have been sucked in by Wyness and Kenwright, BUT I do believe that the fact that there was no other option persuaded a lot of Voters to accept the move to Kirkby as our only option.
The reason thatt his board of Directors are castigated by some supporters are because there were no other available options.
The Yes voters seem to think that this is democratic, which means that China is a democracy after all, it’s citizens are GIVEN A VOTE TOO.
I voted no but if other altrnatives had been presented and /or the full facts, costs and what it really will mean to Everton FC had been blazened across the media instead of on the back of fag packets that were changed on a regular basis then That information may well have given me the reason to vote Yes.
But to be cornered into voting yes because this board do not have the business acumen to deliver other alternatives is the reason I am against both them and this move to Kirkby.
And by the way I hope I really hope that I am wrong and the stadium is the best that Tesco have ever developed and Everton go on to be the biggest club in Europe- but something just does not add up.

First Jersey Blue are you on a wind up",Suspicions and mistrust baffles you"where have you been for the last few years now I am not saying that the vote was rigged although the abstentions were strangely high but you have no suspicions that Kenwright lied about the fortress fund,that the same man engineered Rooneys transfer as the club were desperate for money or that he has sold every asset he possibly could,and I assume you think his 24/7 search for investment is also true,oh and the parading of players to support the move to vote was the act of a man willing to let the fans decide if so you are naive at best or well lets leave it there as unlike certain smug people I believe we should respect all fellow blues

Dear Ray,

KEIOC were proud to take the credit for the board’s decision to enlist ERS to run the ballot process.

Strange that as soon as the vote passed KEIOC decided that ERS held a tainted ballot?

Students of the political process, elections and voting in general would be pleased to tell you that possibly the greatest challenge facing modern democracy is the apathy of the electorate. The turnout for the Kirkby ballot was actually above the normal but certainly within expected parameters.

Perhaps KEIOC should bear in mind some truthful, factual statistics about many things, not just democratic process. It may just throw some light on their inability to accept democracy in action.

The current jibes about tainted process and corruption are nothing short of scandalous. ERS are world renowned for the running of fair ballots and their reputation goes before them. For KEIOC to attempt tp put a stain on their reputation shows them up for the fools they are!

Instead of scurrying round casting, dispersions and planting innuendo perhaps KEIOC should take the brave step of publishing a simple statement of their beliefs. After all, if there is even a hint of truth it would be a huge, national and very public scandal, on the other hand if it is made up lies by bitter people I presume the legal department of the ERS would be earning overtime?

So I challenge them to make a public statement once and for all about the election process and the manner in which ERS conducted the ballot. No more rumours and innuendo, simple statement?

well said gavin, its quite obvious that some posters on this site have got a personal vendetta against keioc and there motives which in my oppinion is out of order, they are evertonians like everyone on here and are just trying to get better than whats on offer, how can people have a go at them for that?

I voted no but like many more I think there is an attitude of its not happening yet anyway.
People know Evertons track record of fuck ups so seeing is believing.
You can bet your life if it comes to fruition there will be mass demonstrations but then it will be too late so for that point keioc deserve credit even though I think their campaign has been poor even to amateur standards .
One other thing everyone is allowed their say but gerrard madden has to be the most arrogant prick that has ever visited this site, Tony marsh is contraversial but this beaut beats the lot.

Dear Tom,
As you well know, I post often on kipper. I ventured onto here because I noticed that there was no comment about the ?protest? yesterday. Being quiet is one crime I cannot be associated with.
I have a very clear and specific agenda, speaking clearly, softly and without abuse to anyone who will listen. As I do not think we have ever spoken then you have either read my posts or listened to invective from one of the people you know to whom I refer.
I personally like the statement you make ?this whole protest angle is completely new and almost alien to them.? Was it not Anne Addlington who featured in the Echo story, a person associated strongly with the Hillsborough campaigning, (Not knocking that for a single second by the way.) who is their spokesperson.
They have called on the skills of others, those associated with years of experience of knocking Everton, such as Ian. The others have all been well discussed on kipper, chapter and verse. Therefore, neither amateurs nor aliens, just better blues who ?know? better than us.
As for the Association, it seems they are pulling the strings there now as well.
Finally, I am not in anyone?s pocket but as I am not trying to besmirch, destroy or in any other way deliberately cause harm to the members of the board or senior management I have had the clear advantage of clear and open dialogue.
Not oft quoted on here but KW and the other management have always had an open door policy, like they sat down with KEIOC. They are happy and prepared to sit down and discuss all matter about Everton that are not commercially secret. KW has done forums and meetings and each time been open and discussed all the issues on the table.
Maybe he is more open when he feels you are not trying to slander or defame him? Problem is the people behind KEIOC want his head and that of the board members, regardless of what that means for the club. Hence the protest yesterday with banner and chants... ?wyness out!?

I do not have a vendetta against KEIOC however I do feel that at times they appear to shoot themselves in the foot. They have every right to protest for what they feel is right, but they must do it in the right way.

To be honest the only thing that grates me is their claim of lack of information from the club. This can be said regarding them, I check their site for updates as they promise due to my interest in all things Everton and this is certainly about Everton.

I was hoping by now we would have had an update from them re the Casa meeting, I know there have been some postings on here about it but still nothing on the KEIOC site the same can be said about yesterday albeit this is still recent.

I am aware that these people unlike those at the club are doing it on a voluntary basis but once you pick up a baton you have to run with it.

I voted yes but I am still interested in what they have to say, if I had voted No I would obviously be interested but would I join the protest, difficult to say really due to the lack of concrete information and updates of the campaign to date.

It may be that many things have and are happening but as people have not been informed it is difficult for me and others to know. In some respects they could sell themselves better and if they did many others may support their protest.

They want what they believe is best for the club and if they do nudge us in another direction be that a new improved & deliverable location or even supporter input into the stadium finishing then great there will be no grumbles from me.

Dear Tom,

Save you coming back at me for not answering the cost question.

The final costing of the stadium build cannot be stated until the D&B contract has been signed, as you well know.

As the project has not been finally agreed or ratified, we are way of that at the moment.

What is certain is that the actual build of the stadium itself, infrastructure and all the associated works, cost of the land will be without a net cost to Everton. That equates to FREE, unequivocal, that bit. The enabling opportunity of the Everton Stadium allows the partners in the development project to create the funding for the land, infrastructure and stadium saving Everton this enormous cost.

Everton only have to fund the fit out which will be balanced against the naming rights sale and any development of GP. There is a contingency amount of £10m noted for the fit out but it is expected we can achieve the fit out without cost.

The economics of this are not really a moot point. How can you compare this option on a financial basis with say redevelopment at a conservative £130million but more likely £200m.

People have asked the question about revenue from the new stadium based on the fact that GP wasn’t even full yesterday.

Well filling 4000 or so corporate seats regardless of a full stadium will make that revenue difference. It is that audience in particular we have to aim for. Corporate could bring in £2million a game with a weighted mix of packages. These will not necessarily be Everton fans at all.

On top of that is a family friendly venue that can also entice walk-ups. Family friendly, not all of us enjoy 15 minute queues for tea before the match, another 15 minutes at half time after the pleasure of wading through urine swilled toilets. The future is a family friendly venue with quality service so apart from the football a family spending a hundred quid to get in with Mum, Dad and two kids do not feel as if they are in a cowshed fighting to spend money on refreshments and battling queues for toilets and service. The game can now be watched on TV in the comfort of an armchair for less than a £10 a month.

Colin, you say "filling 4000 or so corporate seats regardless of a full stadium will make the revenue difference"... Does that mean you don?t care if the stadium's going to be half-full as long as we fill the corporate seats?

Colin,
Can I ask you what is your problem regarding KEIOC? They deserve a lot more respect than what you give them, have you ever met the group members, do you know the group members? Have you ever thought of attending their meetings? One thing I am certain about: they are very open and transparent. Don?t you think???

Dear Mr Lapin,

Sorry to dampen your parade regarding the ?protest? after the Utd game. Here?s a few facts that may well give you a thought for an apology to me as it seems your letter suggests I was an organiser of the said event.
First of all I was rung by Merseyside police regarding their concerns over the timing and location of the protest and I told the officer, as I?m telling you now, I have had nothing to do with this protest but will pass on the message to those that have. You can check this through the club's various phone numbers to the football intelligence dept.
Secondly I advised the group of my own concerns regarding the protest and stated they should not hold one after the Utd game, you can check with is by contacting the chair of KEIOC again you have a contact number or email.
Now I?ll admit I did go to the area of the protest on my way to meet friends and see what transpires. I found less than a couple of hundred fans, amongst these fans was a James McFadden lookalike (I had to look twice) and couple of others holding a banner proclaiming Wyness out. My initial thoughts of not protesting this way were well founded. I only wish I had the same foresight in a lot of Everton matters.

But what I will state I have NEVER spoke about fellow concerned Blues like you do Mr Lapin, just what is your agenda? It seems to me that you are some kind of puppet to the club who runs back to his masters like a dog wanting constant praise, why the mocking letter about fellow Evertonians? Why are you one a one man mission on fan forums with multiple name calling and mocking fellow Blues? Are you paid, as you seem to spend whole days on these forums? Are you on some kind of promise, just what is your agenda?

To be honest I don?t know why I?m replying but there again at least you can run back to your masters and tell them the truth now. If you have any more unfounded observations of me please ask me first.

For the record again Kirkby is not for the future benefit of our club only for certain individuals now. And I will help KEIOC in any way I can in the future.
***
Ian Macdonald
ps: Shall I hold my breath for an apology?

*** Unnecessary abuse removed by the Editor.

Mr Laphan,

Can I ask you what your game is, you go on many forums, and try to wind a lot of people up, you are always on Bluekipper, to be honest am really pissed off with you, i think you need to look at yourself, Moving out of the city is not something we should be taking lightly, this club is poorly run, and not one of our so called owners have put one penny into this club, they are the ones who have ruined the club, i also feel that Moyes is starting to realise what a joke the board is, and it is true that he offered his resignation, because he felt the board were taking the piss.

So before you continue to annoy individuals on this forum, or any, remember if the club decide to move to Kirkby, there is no going back when things start to go wrong, because they will.

I would also like to add one more thing, what are your thoughts about Ian Ross, Evertons so called PR Officer??

Right, if you boys and girls can’t behave yourselves on this thread, I will close it.

By all means discuss the KEIOC protest, campaign, and Kirkby project, etc. But any more personal abuse, insunuations, comments about "better" or "real" Evertonians and the like, and I will close this thread.

Why is it that activist Blues can’t pursue their causes without this pathetic descent into tribalism?

One further comment and it will be my last on this thread.I witnessed KEIOC?s media spokesman seeing the way the protest was going.He immediately called for the protest to stop and disperse as some abuse was being shouted,that action spoke volumes about the committee behind the protest.They are decent people and fans who are up against alot of barriers and big business.I noticed only some the websites carried notice of the protest the local media must have blanked it,if so why?

Ian I wouldn’t hold your breathe looking for an apology... as it doesn’t look like there is any reason for one... not based purely on Colin’s letter. He only said he saw you there

Colin Laphan - you say Everton are getting their stadium built for free by their enabling partners (I assume you mean Tesco) yet this contradicts with information I believe Tesco have issued to their shareholders; being a PLC they cannot give money away. Obviously they can build the infrastructure for their development which the Everton ground could utilise, but please tell me where you get your information from regarding the money to build the stadium?

Hi Tony ,
From the mocking birds letter?The only face I could recognise was Ian Macdonald, don?t know where the other organisers where...?

It has to be said it was a very poor turnout on what was perfect day weather wise and an early kick off to boot!

Just imagine the turnout if we’d won, it was pissing down and there was a normal kick off time - hmmm.

Dear Roy,
Tesco have not contradicted my statement or the club?s in any way. Tesco simply issued a clarification to ensure the shareholders and the ?city? fully understood the nature of the project was commercial and not ?charitable.?
Tesco are the developers. The developers of the project are going to enable the construction of the stadium, infrastructure on the back of the construction of 500,000 sq ft of retail space, which includes a Tesco store.
It seems easily forgotten that the Directors of Everton Football Club have legal responsibilities to the Government and the shareholders. They have made very clear public statements.
At various meetings and forums I have personally, as have many others heard Keith Wyness explain the concept and the mechanics of the process by which we end up with a fully funded stadium build.
Tesco have made clear statements about the development funding the stadium build.
Therefore, that is one of the country?s largest businesses, turnover £47billion making clear statements of intent.
If Terry has lied, you can bet he would be out of a job faster than you can read this sentence destroyed by the city and ruined.
Do you really think for one minute that the current Everton board could continue running the club if they perpetrated a conspiracy to defraud the shareholders?
Too many myths, rumours and innuendo?s exist around Everton that allow for this kind of thinking.
The Directors have chosen Kirkby very carefully after much soul searching. The emotional ties could not simply hold Everton at GP once there was a chance to secure a funded stadium built with a council that wants us partnered by a £47billion pound business giant.
As it stands today the clubs official statement has said that the worst possible liability that they foresee is up to £10million to acquire a £150million pound stadium in terms of value when built.

Dear Ian,
Firstly, I was watching the ?protest.? During the time, I was watching you were standing with the protestors albeit on the periphery.
When I say don?t know where the other organisers where I am taking it that you are in the background working closely with them because of your involvement at their events, such as St. Georges Hall, yesterday, handing out KEIOC flyers and particularly after your actions recently with the Shareholders Committee and your cohesion with KEIOC in your pre-planned submissions. I have also seen other correspondences and posts from you that seem to possess a depth of knowledge of their actions. If you have had no discussions with any of their members, turned up at all these places and times by accident, happened to hand me a KEIOC flyer and happened to pick KEIOC paperwork up off the floor as you walked into a committee meeting then I humbly and unreservedly apologise for inferring you even know any of them...at all.

Secondly, KEIOC claimed they had contacted the Police and the Police were really pleased to support the protest and appeared to be offering their support due to the nature of the protest. So either you or KEIOC has got their facts twisted. Which is it?
Thirdly, People standing in the street chanting obscene chants, doing the Valleygate thing, making threats against the club and its officials, abusing ?yes? voters, calling for the ?head ?of KW, handing out flyers claiming the board lie, claiming the CEO is on the fiddle or are prepared to spit on club officials and/or are prepared to write whatever personal abuse or character assignation they choose might be blues but they are in no way ever going to be ?my fellows.?
Fourthly, I posted my concerns on the kipper forum and was rounded on as usual by the KEIOC people. It therefore comes as no surprise whatsoever that KEIOC?s ?media? officer? lost the plot and shut the protest down.
Ps. If you want to address any of these issues you?ve got my email address so we can avoid upsetting the editor. However, after last Monday night?s efforts perhaps a character reference from the Vatican would help.

WasTony Marsh one of the 40?

For the record; I voted NO and remain as committed to that now as I have ever been. The rag-tag bunch of KEIOC campaigners do my beliefs or their credibility no good whatsoever by organising such a poor and ineffective show.

However, this can’t even attempt to disguise the severe misgivings of a significant number of Evertonians over the K word. Please note that I haven’t declared that the number is X%, Y%, an absolute number or even a majority or minority, because ... I just don’t know (no-body can), but it is clearly significant.

So for Gerard Madden to claim fairly precise numbers about almost everything under the sun (and I quote from his posts):
- less than a couple of hundred,
- hundreds
- - 99%
makes me smile, because I know, in making things up off the top of his head, he is doing far more for keeping the beliefs of the NO voters in the public domain than the KEIOC could ever do.

Keep up the good work Mr. Madden, in these dark times, we NO’s need a laugh.

Incidentally, Barry Lightfoot, in lauding Mr. W, criticised Trevor Birch for jumping ship. The reason he did it was because he had integrity. Having got to grips with the numbers, he advised Kenwright that the only way to avoid Administration was to sell a certain Wayne Rooney. Having said he wouldn’t sell Rooney for £50m, Trevor was left with no alternative but to resign.

Incidentally, what happened next ? Kenwright, by not giving him (and his people) assurances over Everton’s financial stability gave Rooney?s agents opportunities to work on him. Rooney felt backed into a corner and was forced to ask for a transfer that gave Kenwright the perfect excuse to sell him for .... £20m!

This tells you as much as you need to know about the character of both Trevor Birch and BK.

Funny thing integrity ? evidently in short supply at Goodison these days.

Steve Williams good post but be prepared for demands of proof as to some only Kenwright doesn?t lie

Roy.

Please don’t say all yes voters spout venom. Many of us chose what we felt was the best option for the club. there are some on both sides who apear unable to have a debate without resorting to abuse.

In fact I believe most people on both sides of the vote just read and keep their thoughts to themselfs.

Dear Mr Williams, You are right about Mr Birch. He did demand that Rooney was sold. He was told no, that a sale was not on the agenda. He went.

DM and BK did everything they could to keep hold of Rooney, end of. The simple fact is that EFC could not meet the financial demands put upon them by Rooney’s agents.

Rooney as a professional footballer chose to go to the highest bidder, simple.

Everton had no choice in the matter as they could not compete financially, that’s the reality.

In hindsight it was the best thing possible for both parties. The pain at the time for Bk was terrible.

Do not for one minute think that Rooney, a humble Liverpool lad should have passed up the chance of riches beyond all his dreams. Backed into a corner, get real backed right into the bank.

Good on him. However his behaviour at the time, and his badge kissing at Man U. vs EFC is not excusable.

Every argument about Kirkby regardless of where its getting debated always ends up in a slanging match unfortunately tony, im not excusing this behaviour it just seems emotions get the better of people sometimes or should i say most time, and no doubt it will carry on until this whole debate is over.

Andy.

I agreee that it will raise strong emotions, however what is disappointing is the constant abuse. Examples being your a RS, not a real evertoinian, a fuck wit etc etc etc.

If this was a live debate it would be more easily understood however, items are typed read and submitted so there is less of an excuse.

Hopefully if this ever ends we can all eventually get back to disagreaing about what happens on and of the pitch with regards to the team.

Anyway its getting late all the best to all blues whoever you are what ever you voted there are major arguments in all families even the Everton family, but we still remain a family.

Colin, thanks for responding, I will now quote Terry Leahy for you:

?The construction of the stadium itself would cost around £110 million. Barr Construction have an integrated design, steel manufacture and construction operation which makes huge savings on that figure. Tesco as the developer is forgoing the normal development profit on the construction of around £15 million, in addition to the contribution it is making directly?

Despite what you say, I am unable to find reference from Tesco that the £50m contribution will go on the stadium itself and not the infrastructure etc. Looking at this from a best case angle, assuming it does, that still leaves a big gap to reach the construction figure of £110m that one can only assume the club will have to bridge.

So are you really sure when you say ?What is certain is that the actual build of the stadium itself, infrastructure and all the associated works, cost of the land will be without a net cost to Everton. That equates to FREE, unequivocal, that bit?.
The commercial and funding aspects of construction are my livelihood and therefore also my field of expertise (probably the only one!) and let me assure anyone that talk of huge savings from contractors is at best misleading. The price of steel is sky-high at the moment due primarily to the economic boom in China. Research shows that Barr Construction offer a design and build management contracting service, meaning that they will utilise a host of sub-contractors to carry out the work. Talk of 33% discounts from the club is nonsense; the large British contractors tender at around the 5% mark.

In light of the above, I put it to you that between the club and Terry Leahy someone has told a lie to paint a rosier than actual picture.

Colin,
I have no idea if you post on bluekipper or not..... I haven’t been on that site for years. I only have a few moments to reply. I think you will find that design and build costs should be well established by now..... Furthermore, if not how can you possibly say that the enabling funding covers it? Unequivecol and unknowns doesn’t make sense surely? More unknowns include the naming rights and value of GP it would seem. Your estimates for redevelopment costs of GP also seem way off the mark. Concluding with 4,000 exec provision being Kirkby’s saving grace seems speculative in the extreme..... the colourfull references to urine soaked toilets and queuing serves what purposes? and can this only be remedied in Kirkby? You say the directors chose Kirkby..... who’s directors...... EFC’s or Tescos. I’ve worked on much bigger construction projects than this proposed stadium..... if the club don’t know their final costings I’d be very surprised.... but it is obvious why they would not want to disclose them!!Ann Adlington a serial protestor? Solocitor, I believe.

Dear Mr Laphan... I quote...

"No hard nosed corporate type is ever going to be the fans bestest freind. He has a job to do, and is doing it well."

So Keith Wyness must be a "Gordon Gecko type" according to your statement above... surely this is a tacit inference that he could be motivated solely by his own personal success (greed?) as opposed to a real desire to look after the best long term interests of Everton. I am not suggesting that the two aims (Mr Wyness?s Success / Everton?s Future) are mutually exclusive, they certainly haven?t been up until now... but without impartial opinion in what is being presented in terms of the Kirkby project one may be right to be fearful of a conflict of interest

Now read the following paragraphs which you wrote...

"Shame the people behind KEIOC can?t be clear about their focus or motives, Mr Wyness is crystal clear as are the board."

"How can I respect these people who I believe are putting their personal grudges before the best needs of the club"

Now replace the word ?grudges? with the word ?interests? and see how those paragraphs read...

Everyone was laughing at KEIOC as they walked past.

Why were they laughing?

Because they are a joke and a shambles.

Brian,
Why do you wish to berate fellow Evertonians?

Is there really any need?

Can you imagine if the likes of your smugness resulted in a proportion of the fans who voted no calling it a day. Do you really think this club can afford to lose any of its supporters? We can barely fill 40,000 seats as it is, nevermind 50,000 out of town.

Your protest was a shambles.

Instead of all this Wyness out, Kenwright out why don’t you stick to the matter at hand. KEEP EVERTON IN THE CITY, that is your mandate after all isn’t it? You lose support by trying to oust the board and everybody was laughing at you that was the facts and again your support seems to be dwindling.

This is precisly what I feared the result would be after the shambles of a protest on saturday, a protest needs to be done in numbers and needs to be vociferous but my fellow no voters didnt turn up, we need to put up or shut up!! I was there on Saturday ? anymore shows like that and we may as well forget it.

Dear Roy,

Unlike you, I am definitely not in the construction industry nor do I have any experience of projects of this nature or scale.

However I can listen and read when I am presented with information, digest the said info. and work out on a simple but logical basis as to what stacks up.

When the information was first presented to me I did go and do the research into what ?enabling projects? actually meant, I even researched the actual statutes that specify what is and what isn?t possible.

After doing this I was completely satisfied that in partnership with Knowlsley a project of this nature was completely feasible.

Tesco?s part as developer makes the rest of the deal stack up because of their relationship with Barr. You mention the ?discount? being given against the £75million build cost of the stadium(not infrastructure or anything else). This discount is offset against the overall build cost of the whole project of some £450million. Now the figures stack up and the 33% you stated suddenly becomes a realistic margin 5.5%. Especially if as part of the deal Barr have agreed exclusivity on more Tesco projects elsewhere. Add that into the equation and the discount is a tiny percentage!!

Also if you add back into the equation the profit the developers Tesco are putting back in, £15m the figures work.

I am sure you will agree, with a conditional ?IF?, If all that is true then we get a stadium, infrastructure, groundwork?s and land for gratis.

Our part in the overall deal is twofold, turn up and occupy the stadium (the bit that makes the whole project feasible in the first place ? the enabler) and secondly fit-out the stadium.

The only negative whatsoever in this equation is the emotional one of moving 4 miles.

Otherwise economically who in their right mind can argue with complete stadium free and infrastructure for a contingent up to £10million just for the fit out?

A debt free stadium build. Another world first for Everton?

Mr. Laphan - amidst your initial post on this subject, you wrote:

"The question is, KEIOC, when 35,000 turn their backs on you, are you bright enough to get the message?"

Now, your spinning of matters on a number of issues Everton related is well noted by most. I doubt most on here appreciate how close you are to the current Chairman of Everton FC, so in fairness I believe that?s word raising oncemore.

Anyhow, the quote above, the last sentence in your initial mailbag submission - can I possibly amend the words and ask, of you, and others:

The question is, Everton FC, when 35,000 or more Evertonians turn their backs on you, once you relocate our Club out to Kirkby, are you bright enough to get the message?

When you consider that it?s not really that long ago when we were getting crowds on a regular basis in excess of 50,000, there?s an argument that Everton FC has already lost quite a substantial number of match going Evertonians. However, I would cite the ridiculous cost of attendance and the culture of television as being a major factor in the drop in attendances over the past generation or two.

To suggest Everton will be debt free with a move out to Kirkby is ridiculous - and you know it, Mr. Laphan. So, please, if you?re going to continue contributing on this website instead of overzealous criticism of it elsewhere, then please let us have less of your spinning.

Yeah we get a Debt Free stadium and all the while our neighbours costs are spiralling.

We’re on to a winner on both counts.

Dear Colm,
I suggest it is possible for the proposed Kirkby stadium to be achieved with no debt or up to £10m.

Everton will still have whatever debt they have now, I expect. The point is they won’t have gained £300 million more debt like our neighbours as you well know.

We can have the stadium gratis, for moving there and then all we have to do it fit it out.

Taking the moving bit out of the equation are you saying it is bad business to accept a free stadium in the current economic climate?

I have already stated that I have talked to the board members and listened carefully.

Colin - please stop suggesting we’re getting a FREE stadium out in Kirkby. Or even an "effectively" free stadium out in Kirkby. Neither claims are genuine - and you know it.

Dear Colm,
The physical stadium structure will not be paid for by us. How should I describe this? gratis, 100%discounted, without cost?

Our only bill is the fit out. This is the bit where I started describing it as effectively free because we offset this cost against naming rights.

The claims are not just genuine it is exactly what a member of the board has stated.

Do we have to pay the leccy bill?

Everything becomes "effectively" free with the simple issuing of stadium naming rights? That is not going to happen. Tell us something, Colin - the Club are not moving into a world class venue as claimed previously, are they? It’s cheap as chips.

We’re settling for an out of town plot amidst a retail park. No thanks.

Colin - thanks for responding again ? I?m sorry but the figures don?t work. You are quoting a figure of £75m for the build cost of the stadium (the club initially stated this figure then retracted it and started quoting £150m). Terry Leahy has stated that the construction cost for Everton FC for this stadium would be £110m. What is it? £75m, £110m or £150m. Terry Leahy has stated quite clearly in his open letter that it is £110m so I am inclined to go with that figure. Tesco state that they are forgoing their development profit of £15m, but this is misleading?if the club were acting as client (as for instance Liverpool Football Club are) then this sum of money wouldn?t even be in the equation. Unless you are now saying that Tesco are now contributing £65m (£50m + £15m) then that would be different - but they are not, are they?

So the construction cost of £110m less £50m equals a £60m deficit that the club would have to find. It has been stated that the sale of Goodison Park will be used to bridge the gap at a very generous £15m. That equates to over £2m per acre. Very optimistic I would say when compared to land values in the L4/L5 area. The only way they could get near that figure would be after planning permission for a very attractive development was given, thus requiring extreme cooperation from LCC.

So the club would have to find c.£50m in addition to the ground sale. A Naming Rights deal has been mentioned, but this involves staged payments over a short-medium term, meaning the club would have to take on debt to cover this. A Naming Rights deal is obviously not restricted to Kirkby, this deal could be used in a redevelopment of Goodison scheme, for example.

In addition to this we are told that final projected outturn costs have not been accurately calculated. This is very worrying, if true, (which I very much doubt from experience) because costs only ever go in one direction, and that is upwards and you either have to find this additional money (the club have already said this would be their liability) or you reduce the quality of the product.

As a shareholder you may be aware of additional information to all of this, but I can only go on the information that has been formally disclosed by the club and Terry Leahy and based on this information it is clear we will get one of two things:

1) A very poor stadium that has cost c.£60m and left us with little debt
2) An average stadium (when compared with the ?big four?) that has left us with at least £50m of debt

If it is a cheap and nasty stadium, then we have been misled, if it isn?t then I think fans have also been misled and the vast majority would rather see the £50 odd million of debt being pumped into building a new Park End and redeveloping Goodison and ending up with something like St James Park rather than a Reebok Stadium or a Riverside.

On another note I have the dubious honour of being involved in the Liverpool FC stadium at the moment. There is a multi million pound infrastructure package which includes numerous junction improvements, several park and ride facilities, pedestrian walk routes, massive upgrading of coach parking facilities and much more. This is all something that Everton FC could utilise to great benefit at NIL COST if they stayed in the L4 or surrounding area.

Rich Jones ’my fellow no voters didnt turn up, we need to put up or shut up!! I was there on Saturday anymore shows like that and we may aswell forget it’.


I’d say that would be the case, in fact how can you possibly get a better turnout, the conditions were perfect for a protest on Saturday, the whole stadium issue is still a hot one amongst some fans, a typical manc late goal winner to make everyone feel grumpy, the sun was shining and an early kick off. Just imagine the turnout if we’d won (or drew) it was grey and damp and the kick off was at a normal time or it was dark - i’ll leave it to your imagination but I don’t think anything as much as 20 would’ve turned up.

The stadium structure is intended to be built on a D&B at £75million value but actually cost £50million.

This amount will be met by the developers of the project.

The land costs will also be absorbed into the project by benefit of the partnership with Knowlsey.


When Terry stated the figures he included in them the fit-out, the land value and the structure cost plus the ancillary costs such as infrastructure.

I can categorically state that we will only be responsible for the fit-out.

Just a little worried about the role of Barr Construction in the Kirkby project.
On their website it lists a number of Foootball Clubs as clients. I picked one at random (Raith Rovers) and then went to their website. Not very impressed.
http://www.raithroversfc.com/cgi-bin/starkspark.cgi

Secondly, when Barr were acquired by McLaughlin & Harvey, Barr’s latest results for the 12 months to 31/3/06 were quoted as a turnover of £210m with a pre-tax profit of £2.6m.
With such a pre-tax profit it would appear that Barr are not in a position to contribute a great deal to the Kirkby project, no matter what their relationship is with Tesco.

Looking at Raith Rovers is a bit misleading. First off the work was done in 1996 and there have been a few advances since then. Secondly Raith probably only got what they could afford at the time.

So I wouldn’t use Raith Rovers ground as a measuring stick to what the Kirkby ground will look like.

Colin, I am sorry but either you or terry Leahy are wrong. I will quote the full paragraph from Terry Leahy:

?If Everton built a new stadium alone, rather than as part of an overall development, the cost would be huge. In the case of the Kirkby proposal, if you allocated a share of the traffic, infrastructure and land costs to the stadium, a very conservative figure would be £25 million. The construction of the stadium itself would cost around £110 million. Barr Construction have an integrated design, steel manufacture and construction operation which makes huge savings on that figure. Tesco as the developer is forgoing the normal development profit on the construction of around £15 million, in addition to the contribution it is making directly. So if you went out to buy this stadium it would cost you £150 million. It has been designed to be extendable to 60,000 seats which, when it happens, will cost another £25 million and there is ample space in the stadium to add further lounges, facilities and finishes to the highest standards in the Premier League when the club completes its investment. This would be in addition to the very good provision from day one, but could be anything from £15 - £25 million dependent on what you ultimately want. So you are looking at a stadium which when finally developed is around £200 million, and £150 million from day one.?

It is quite clear that Terry Leahy quotes £25m for land, infrastructure and traffic and then an ADDITIONAL £110m for construction. He then quotes £15m to £25m for the fit out, if we assume £20m then this leaves a remaining construction cost of £90m of which Tesco are contributing £50m. SHORTFALL of £40m

As I say, we are either getting a cheaper stadium than Terry Leahy is telling us or we are going to end up with a lot more debt than the club are letting us believe.

You seem to think that the cost of the construction, less fit out, will only be £50m, this would be my biggest worry because I know exactly what you get for that kind of sum. I have been led to believe by Terry Leahy, and therefore the club who printed his letter, that the new ground would cost £110m less a discount from Barr Construction which cannot be more than a couple of million unless the construction price is vastly inflated in the first place.

It is not difficult to spell out in layman?s terms the cost breakdown of this scheme, or any other scheme for that matter, however the club have managed to make it very confusing and are either misleading us, lying to us, changing their minds or are failing to use their calculators properly.

Slice it, dice it anyway you will find that the actual cost of the D&B is £50m.

Terry isn’t wrong but he starts his letter by saying if Everton went alone on a stadium build. He is actually giving an open market valuation on the cost of a similar project.

I thought this read very clearly.

But we aren’t getting a £50million build we will be getting a £75m million build for the stadium structure alone. That’s the proposed deal. BTW it has been cost audited at £75m.

If we sign up, that is what we are signing for.

On top of the £75m, add stadium fit out, land costs, infrastructure share and finished valuation.

If we sign the proposed deal which the board are investigating as per the ballot then we will be signing a legally binding contract. The other partners have to deliver and I think they have the capability to do this? or are you doubting Tesco.

Argue about the emotive things but don’t argue that this is a bad business deal or that the figures don’t add up.

All that matters is the deal we sign is delivered. We don’t actually care what the cost is (we aren’t liable for this cost) as long as we get the value we agree to the specifications we have agreed. Everton wins, end of.

We then get to fit-out. Very simple, why are people trying to make it complex.

Personally I trust the £47 billion pound company to deliver.

Or you could trust Warren? Matthew Street anybody!

...and if you are involved with those nice RS people you will know they have a few money issues to solve before they even get to burden the RS with £500million plus of solid debt. So you are in a fair position to evaluate the benefits of this deal against the RS position. Not forgetting we t/o £60m and they £180m+

Gerrard that’s what I was saying.

Are you trying to make Rich , mad, Madden ? You are by far the most maddenning Madden I have ever come across on a public forum.

I am not talking about valuation, I am talking about construction cost because this is the only meaningful way of comparison of quality to other football stadia. Please don?t spout this nonsense about getting £75m of construction for £50m as that is just an insult to anyone who has the slightest idea about the construction industry. It will either cost £50m or it will cost £75m and from what you say it sounds like the former.

I am not saying it is a bad deal and it won?t be delivered, clearly any deal where a contribution of £50m is made has benefits and Tesco clearly have the competence and fiscal means to throw it up in no time. Never mind this, I am only interested in the finished product and ensuring that Everton FC has a home worthy of its stature and tradition because once we commit down this road, there is no turning back, certainly not in our lifetimes.

Coventry Stadium cost £39m; Bolton Stadium cost £40m; Southampton stadium cost £35m; Everton Stadium cost c.£60m. If you think we fit nicely into this bracket then carry on preaching, if like myself you don?t then questions need answering.

You are right mentioning the emotive side, because thousands of people have been talked into accepting Kirkby as a massively inferior location because of the deal they think they are getting?you have said nothing which has addressed directly my statement that we will either end up in a poor ground with minimal debt or an average ground with a lot more debt than we were led to believe, so I can only surmise that there will be a lot of furious fans about in 2010 when the Kirkby Tescodome is ready for business.

PS - Mention of Bradley, or the RS plays no significance in this specific topic?but drowning men will clutch for straws

Rich Jones - I wasn’t making a point against you mate just using your quote as an excuse to make my point about the poor turnout and questioning how could the conditions possibly ever be better again to attract a decent crowd - the dark nights are drawing in, the weather is getting cooler and wetter and we’re not likely to have too many early kick-offs in the warm sunshine again. Evertonians arn’t the best protesters (evidently) and as time wears on the stadium issue gets less and less heated for most of the fanbase. Last Saturday was a wonderful opportunity missed for the remaining bedraggled ’no’s and they know it.

"The last bedraggled no’s"

Why do the no-voter-detractors feel the need to dress up their points in this kind of language. What has any of this got to do with the issues? What if apathy has sneaked in? Who can blame people for losing heart, seeing what they’re up against? Personally, I don’t believe the protest, whatever form that eventually takes has come anywhere near reaching its peak as yet. There are lots of issues and questions to be resolved yet, and a few thorny ones too!

"The remaining bedraggled no’s"

What a stupid thing to say. It almost insinuates that the 10000 who voted no have suddenly changed their opinion and there are only a few left. It also smacks of a smug arrogance that can only be to wind people up.

Roy is quite literally right on the money here. The spin machine has never been at such high revs as it has regarding the costs. No-one has yet nailed the precise cost for EFC, and this is most bizzare. When I worked in construction we were able to furnish the client with practically full construction costs at tendering stage. Otherwise we would never have got the job. Further spin from Colin..... How can a brand new complete stadium construction cost be as low as £50m yet a redeveloped Gp be £200m, when we may only need 1 completely new structure at GP to meet the same capacity? There is no need to rely solely on emotive issues because those stated above really don’t stack. However, if a fully redeveloped GP with one or both of Leitch classic and iconic stands preserved was presented properly or with half the hype, I don’t believe anyone would really be considering Kirkby at all. If the Transport analysis for inner city and out of town stadia, especially regarding public transport provision was released, again I don’t believe anyone would even glance at Kirkby. These are real issues and not just emotional imponderables that can be fobbed off with a Tesco bottom line, or statements of £47bn. I mean what is that supposed to indicate? If that figure is of any relevance why aren’t we getting the new San Siro with knobs on, on stilts above Lime street station? This would cost less than 1% of Tescos turnover...... The fact is even Bestway with their much smaller turnover can match Tescos proposed investment by virtue of being a private company rendering Tesco’s wealth irrelevant for comparison purposes.

Tom,

Your figures don’t stand up either so don’t come that one. Neither does the timescale. Neither does the bestway site, but I guess that doesn’t matter eh? Because it doesn’t fit in with your agenda.

"Tom,

Your figures don?t stand up either"

Is that a strange admission that the club’s Kirkby figures don’t add up? Doesn’t that alarm you? By the way what figures of mine are you refering to? What timescale, and seriously, what do you know about the Loop site......? Do you know that it compares favourably sizewise with most similarly sized stadium sites? Don’t just spout anything. Justify it. What is my agenda? I am a shareholding/seasonticket holder..... I surely want what’s best for the club. Unfortunately, I only get a few minutes Internet time per day because of my current location, but I’ll be only to happy to respond to any precise querry of yours concerning any quantities I have mentioned. In the meantime you can try to find the missing tens of millions at your end!

I see colin laphan has disappeared from this thread...what further evidence does one need that he can’t make those figures work either!