Man, I wish everyone would step back from the ledge today. Results like that happen. Yeah, we should have won. But sometimes the best of efforts don?t result in a W.

By all accounts, what happened last night was not the best of efforts. Me? I didn?t get to see it since I am an American. So I can?t say from a visual account. It sounds as though we played while adapting to an unfamiliar formation, an unknown opponent, with a midfield devoid of guile, while being guilty of sloppy passing. (sidenote: scrap the 4-3-3)

Yeah it?s discouraging, even painful. But it doesn?t mean we all need to take this bi-polar, emotional approach to backing the team - reacting in a state of PMS to every high and low. Hell, the masses here on TW have swung from seriously challenging for top 4 to laughing stock of Europe within two weeks time. I submit that we are not as good as early indications. On the other hand, reports of our demise are grossly exaggerated.

Like I said, sometimes the best of efforts do not result in a victory. I won?t begin to claim that last night was the best of efforts. No way to win that argument. But a look at the cold and sterile game statistics shows some bright signs to those who might be inclined to consider the middle ground.

Brightspots:-

• Metalist got off only two shots in the second half.
• EFC has more shots on goal (9) than Metalist took (8)
• Corners: EFC 8 ? Metalist 1
• We have a stronger midfield in the waiting.

Lowlights ?

• The second leg is away from home.
• AJ?s confidence won?t allow him to hit the ocean from the beach.
• Unpredictable officiating.
• Metalist played shorhanded for over 20 minutes and we couldn?t break through.

Poor tactics? Perhaps. Shambles? No, I don?t think so. We are just a middling, perhaps above average Premier League club without midfield linkage. Nothing that most of us didn?t already know. Our skill level will allow us to be brilliant some days and wretched some days depending on any number of variables and the match up. Most days, we will play somewhere in the middle and have to scrap for the one-goal victory.

I think we can still pull this out on the return leg. We have the ability to blow them out. Unfortunately, that depends on which Everton team shows for the next match. Likewise, I think they have the ability to get an early lead on us. That spells trouble. It?s not as though we are scoring in bunches right now.

Moyes undoubtedly will field a stronger midfield. But if we take even our ?average? performance to the Ukraine, hold on to you hats. Trying to lock-down a one goal advantage, away from home, with spotty officiating for any period of time will be excruciating. Especially for you bi-polar types that have already stepped out on the ledge.

Will we win? Maybe. I like to think probably. We are still the quality squad of the two. But an average performance isn?t going to cut it next time. Even if we sneak away with a struggling, 1-goal win, it won?t do anything to build confidence for the next matches.

Please, everyone... Step off the ledge. Better us than Blackburn or Celtic.

Lets get two things absolutely straight.

1/ last night was disappointing, frustrating and the performance was average and below what we can and have come to expect from Everton (we were nervous?)

2/ we are 1-1 (but obviously down on an away goal) - not exactly out of the tie!

the vitriol written on the message boards about Moyes etc is completely without any base in reality - did anyone look at the bench last night - unused subs - lukas, bjarni, turner...not exactly the quality you want to risk on our first night in european action for two years. can we not forgive moyes for trying to go in an attacking formation with senior players, wold you rather he picked reserves to play???

Give it a break, get behind the team and the manager this sunday, and stop the "verbal jihad!"

"Just don’t go telling other genuine fans that their reaction to what they saw is somehow wrong. That’s bullshit, plain and simple."

Then why do you label us apologists? Clearly you think we’re wrong. To quote you Michael, that’s bullshit, plain and simple.

Also, I do think we should get behind the team. I certainly don’t see what can be gained from booing them, which in my eyes is despicable.

Scott
I also live in the USA and had the misfortune to watch last nights game on Sopcast.
I am usualy pro Moyes because he has brought stability with little investment nor support from the board.
However I have to say last night really showed his tactical limitations.He may be a motivator but you need a lot more than Moyes has in his locker if you want to succeed in Europe or with the big boys.
To play a 4-3-3 knowing they would pack the defence and midfield is naive at best.
To leave your new 4 million pound all rounder on the bench while playing Neville/Carsley in a 3 man midfield is bordering on the insane.
He could have put Valente or Lescott at left back and pushed Baines into midfield and put Neville the only position he is just about capable of RB.
We have yet to keep a clean sheet in any game and yet the back 4 are generally playing well so its obvious where the problem is and yet we put Jagielka on the bench.
Moyes should be left as assitant coach but we need a mature Wenger type as director of football and I never thought I would hear myself say that.

We are supporters and our job is to support the Team. We have to bounce back like they have to, at Villa on Sunday. Last night was crap, but we have to move on. The Manager will be the same, as will the squad, come the second leg.

I have my opinions on how we played and on Moyes’ style of football, but screaming them from the rooftops now is not going to make any difference now. We change Managers in close season or if we are in crisis ( Walker 94 )not after 7 games when or record is W3 D2 L2. I’m sure they are all aware they have to improve and use their brains rather than play hoofball and will be looking to do just that at Villa.

That’s my opinion, you’re all entitled to yours.

Last night I came home from the match absolutely disgusted in how I and thousands of other fans had been treated. Regards the match itself now that I have had time to calm down, think about the performance rationally and allow the rawness of the night abate.

I realise now that we were not as bad as I initially suggested. In fact we were absolutely fucking abysmal

You lot just don’t get it do you ?
We have put up with this for nearly six years.
We have no trophies, never had a cup run of ANY description and have suffered our worst defeats of this decade under this man.
Yet you STILL come up with excuses for him.
on paper it is a bloody good team, it is Moyes who continually fails us with his tactless genius.
My post from this morning did not make it to the mail bag and looking back on what i wrote after a sleepless night, i can possibly understand why.
But i did label Moyes a charlatan and that i stand by.

I am sick of people on here trying to excuse Moyes OK we didn’t have Arteta or Gravesen bur Moyes has had 5 years to assemble his squad so it should be better equipped by now,Tactics what a shambles has Moyes not watched any European games the secret is dont concede at home but we are one up against ten men and we go forward as if we had to score IM in shock as for years I have wanted him to be more adventurous but not in a European game,finally how can he play such an attacking line up and have Neville in mid field and having Hibbet as an attacking full back these two could not pass to a blue shirt if they were holding the guys hand.Can any one tell me where Yak is any improvement to the squad Victor was far more effective .

I and everyone evertonian will GET BEHIND THE TEAM. However every Evertonian as a right to express their opinion. The patience of the fans of this club sometimes amazes me. There was little if any trouble last night despite the shambles. Even the grumbling was at a low level.

Why was this it was because all outside care for the club and want to part of it. They did not want to smear the club by jumping turnstyles etc. they acted with dignity something that the club has lost.

The fans inside tried to cheer on and encourage the team, this may have not been clear on TV but it happened. However it is difficult to keep this up when the players offer no encouragement. We tried but try having an argument with no reaction you soon dry up.

One thing that annoys me is quotes from the club like we were suprised how good they where etc also all this blaming of others regards other issues. I would have a little more respect if someone came out and apologiesed for letting the fans down, said the performance was not acceptable for a club such as Everton and that they will ensure that it will not happen again.

With the messages coming out it would apear that they see it as a bit of a blip nothing important. that may be the difference then, we love the club and pay our hard earned cash to follow and support it. They play for the club get paid for doing so no more no less, they don’t love it no matter what they say it’s a job and they have just had a bad day at the office.

Been at the Chablis early Micheal?

Can’t say I blame you...

It was bad, but I’ve seen worse, and it certainly wasn’t as bad as some of the more imaginative posters have suggested.

...But that’s an apologists position..

... I’m just sorry we never won and I blame Moyes for alehouse football club tactics and several senior professionals for following these tactics to the letter.

Michael, I always thought that no matter how frustrating some contributors can be sometimes, Toffeeweb’s greatest asset is the expression of a multitude of views.

But this post of yours is undeniably bitter to the bone and serves only one purpose: to incite more abuse in a situation already laden with nervousness and fans getting at each other.

Not the kind of move you’d expect from an editor of the website.

(Tony Miller, have you seen the interview with AJ? He tells all the usual things, we’ll bounce back, blah-blah. But all the while he looks like he’d burst in tears in any moment.)

Yes as I pay for Everton TV as well he is dissapointed for himself and yes I want him to start banging them in. But he is the only one who has actually shown any emotion the rest are dry lib quotes that are said after every match.

......spell check, comrade,spellcheck.....people will take you seriously then........

Michael,
You have sunk to a new low with that condescending, piece of shit post of yours. I was deeply upset with the performance yesterday, and didn’t think I could be put in any worse mood. But then I made the mistake of reading that shit you just wrote. You say:

"Just don’t go telling other genuine fans that their reaction to what they saw is somehow wrong. That’s bullshit, plain and simple."

But before that you ridicule others who don’t agree with you, by saying that those who say get behind the team, "seems to be the pathetic last and lingering cry of the mediocrity-accpeting Moyes Brigade." What a disgrace, I’m done with this place.

Great post Michael. I made the mistake pre season of thinking Moyes may have ’turned a corner’, how wrong I was. I should never doubt my gut instinct and for 2 years my gut instinct has told me this fella isn’t right for EFC. If Moyes is still in charge come the end of the season then Kirkby will be a perfectly fitting venue for a club that can no loonger class itself as anything more than an also ran...a glorified Middlesbrough. The EFC I began following was better than this as were the Evertonians who followed the club. Nowadays it just seems to be a bunch of thickos and kids following us in the main, I really do despair.

"Just don’t go telling other genuine fans that their reaction to what they saw is somehow wrong. That’s bullshit, plain and simple." err.. go easy Michael. So the ’reactions’ of a ’genuine fan’ are sacrosanct - never to be challneged? Gee. Just how high is that ’tower’ of yours?

On the night, very very poor through the midfield, tactically ? well what were the tactics ? Jaguar left on the bench but why did two old bangers in Neville and Carsley stay on the pitch ?.Will the game at Villa show a change in this department and add to a confession that Davie got it wrong on the night.We have just struggled against a poor but hard working side, no doubt the latters stages of this competition will show us as still ill equipped to compete at the next level.Disappointing

Guys we have to face the facts! We are overestimating our own prowess! Has anyone sat down and compared our team with any of the "big 4" clubs? Do we really expect that a midfield like ours can compare with Garrick, Scholes, Hargreaves, Lampard, Cole, Wright_Phillips, Alonso, Fabregas.... you get my drift. Did we pay over the odds for Yakubu? Yes. Will Pienaar solve all our midfiels problems? No. Will Jagielka evolve into a defence splitting passer of the ball? No. Can we afford to drop Johnson? We have to give him a break to sort out his head.

I think even if we have all our players back from injury it will not change too much. We can play a midfield of Cahill, Carsley, Jags, Arteta and Pienaar. Then we have creativity on the wings (pienaar and arteta) but nothing down the middle. So we haven’t really jumped up to a "top 4" club we just don’t have the midfield for it. Who is willing to bet against Moyes going back to 4 5 1 as soon as Cahill is fit? I think we should pull out all the stops to find a midfielder who can pass the ball. Our own Gerrard, Cesq....

But in the meantime this is what we have and we know Moyes values hardworking shite more than lazy talent (Neville and VdM) He is no Big Sam who gets the best out of his players (watch out for Newcastle this year) But in the mean time we all still love EVERTON and that will never change

Hang on a minute, I came from that match hoarse from shouting ’come on Everton’, once and only once, I shouted something that wasnt in support of the team and that was due to pent up frustration. Yes, the crowd was quiet for a period but where I was sitting, it was because we were stunned at the quality of what was going on on the pitch. I, like others around me, was trying to make out what sort of formation was being played - oh yes that’s it, Yak as a left winger, no actually it’s left midfielder, oops no, perhaps he’s a ....well, who knows.
I will never shout abuse at the team while they’re playing but at the final whistle I will voice my opinion. I have had a chance to calm down and get some of my voice back but I’m still just as angry at the awful ineptitude of the decisions to play the formation they played. Furthermore, having realised that it wasnt working, to continue to carry on playing that way. Only a fool (or arrogant or stubborn) person does not learn by his mistakes. If I, (who knows bugger all about football being a girl) and the other 39,000 people, give or take a few, can see that it wasnt working, why can’t the football coaching genius see it and make the neccesary adjustments? If I see the team for the Villa match contains Nev and Cars in midfield and Hibbo at RB I will be a very angry old woman. I will support the Blues until I’m twanging a harp but they have got to start giving us something back - PLEASE?
I’m getting on a bit and I really would like to see us win something before I snuff it, if I’m lucky I’ve got another 20 years - will it take that long? I hope not.

I KNOW YOU ARE THE EDITOR OF TOFFEEWEB BUT THE MORE I READ YOUR COMMENTS ON THIS SITE, THE MORE I AM CONVINCED THAT YOU ARE TONY MARSH IN DISGUISE, OR AT LEAST HIS TWIN BROTHER!! OVER THE WEEKS YOU HAVE BECOME VERY ANTI-MOYES AND I THOUGHT AN EDITOR’S JOB WAS SUPPOSED TO BE AN IMPARTIAL ONE.[THIS STATEMENT WILL PROBABLY EARN ME A TELLING OFF FROM MICHAEL - I’VE BEEN THERE BEFORE!!]

OF COURSE WE SHOULD GET BEHIND THE CLUB AND THE LADS - WHAT ARE WE A SPINELESS GROUP OF SUPPORTERS WHO ARE ONLY HAPPY WHEN OUR RATTLE ISN’T THROWN OUT OF THE PRAM?

DARE I SAY IT... WE COULD ALL LEARN A LESSON FROM THE RED SHITE SUPPORTERS - THEY REALLY SUPPORT THEIR TEAM WHEN THEY ARE PLAYING. WHAT ABOUT US .. OH YES, AN OCCASIONAL SHOW OF SUPPORT THROUGHOUT A GAME, THAT’S OF COURSE, IF THINGS ARE GOING OUR WAY.

You have a right cheek,Michael,to make this point.You have been denigrating me for years for holding a different view to your own and I have long given up trying to get a headline posting published because it is clear that you only want ’the antis’in your mailbag.
The reaction to this week’s game seems to focus more on the alleged poor quality of the football than the fact that we were far superior to the opposition and had a good result stolen by the referee.
No,we do not play like the Arsenal but more in the mode of Jose’s Chelsea where the end result justifies the style of play.I have no doubt that if Davey was ever given the same resources,he would organise things differently and be more than capable of achieving results on par with ’The Special One’.Until then,he has to be a little more pragmatic.After all,his five year record is pretty good and the thick end of 40,000 patrons who keep turning up seem to think so also

Its interesting how some fans’ opinions are categorised as "excuses" whereas other "genuine fans" are simply reacting to what they see. Pot, kettle, black, Michael?

Spot on Dave Lynch.On paper this is genuinely a good set of players.The problem,simple...Moyes’s tactics.

Brian - yes and no. Yes it was his tactics and no because the starting XI was forced on him due to injuries.

Our midfield was missing Arteta, Cahill and dare I say it Graveson, that midfield should and will never start again, unless of course the injuries remain.

Moyes picked what he could and the players lets him down, also Moyes let us down by not making changes quickly enough.

Michael, if that was really you.
Tut tut tut, for an editor to write such a spiteful piece for the mailbail it lowers the tone of the whole site.

Maybe sober up before posting hey?

You silly man Michael.

I happen to agree with anyone who thought that Thurday night was a complete shambles, but for you to mock those that think otherwise by putting their comments in a special area is frankly pathetic.

Richard Dodd, "result stolen by the referee "you really are a comedian lad.
If Moyes cant see that Neville should not be in our midfield he is a poor coach at best.
You cant defend stupidity although I know you have done your best for the last two seasons.Keep up your contributions they always make me smile.

Patty Blue.
Do you really think the reds fans
(I find it childish to call them silly derogatory names) would support them if they had to watch the shit we have to.
They hounded Souness out for the same reason and they played much better football than we do now.
Smell the roses lady ! they stink at Goodison.

Michael and others if you think Moyes should go, fine, we can agree to disagree. What is really offensive is the fact that the editorial line on the site concerning the manager. The Moyes "apologists" as you insist on labelling them are there to be shot down at length, whereas anyone who disagrees with this view gets absolutely slated.

- By the way I thought we - that include Moyes - were shite on Thursday, yet I still want him as manager. I think he has his faults, yet I don’t want him out. I think he has his strengths, yet I am not simpering at his feet and refusing to listen to criticism. I think many people feel the same, and we have nothing to apologise for.

How many of the moyes apologists want a move to kirby. I bet the majority, have a poll and find out! My personal view is if you want kirby and moyes as manager fuck off and support the shite where you belong.

David with your attitude i suggest you join Michael over the park ,its people like you we dont need.

I’ll try and explain it again.

This mailbag is for Evertonains to voice their observations, opinions, and reactions to the game and to other Everton-related things. Most people who write in do just that and I love it. All sorts of opinions and there are lots of them.

Then the next wave comes along, and these are the ones my trade was aimed against. Rather than presenting an alternative view, and sticking with that, they start attacking the first wave of fans, saying those fans are wrong to have those observations, opinions and reactions.

Yes, by all means come on here and tell us you think Moyes and the Boys did okay under the circumstanmces. I have no problem with that. If that’s your opinion, then tell us, and tell us why. But is there any need to attack those who don’t feel the same way as you do? Is there any need to call them "fans we don’t want" and all the other negative comments we see?

It’s the denigration of others in the Yes / No Kirkby vote all over again.

Respect each others opinions. If you disagree with someone, explain why you disgaree and offer a different explanation. But please Do not denigrate them as fans because you do not accept their opinions.

Yes, maybe it’s a fine line, perhaps too fine for some to grasp. But think what you are saying when you admonish other fans to "get behind the team"... What the hell do you think they are doing?

Why the hell do you think they are here? Would they even bother in the first place if this was not all about "getting behind the team"? We are all Everton Fans are we not? (oh no... don’t answer that!)

I guess it’s just one of those phrases that gets right up my nose becasue of what it is saying. You only need to say it because you feel other fans are not pulling their weight... which obviously means you are. And so it starts: The "I’m a better Evertonian than you are" bullshit. And that’s what I REALLY hate.

"Respect each others opinions. If you disagree with someone, explain why you disgaree and offer a different explanation. But please Do not denigrate them as fans because you do not accept their opinions."

Maybe you should take a leaf out of your own book there Michael and stop calling the people who disagree with your outwardly negative posts childish names.

Michael - while we can all agree, or try to, to respect other’s opinions and refrain from name-calling the lecture is a bit rich coming from you. It’s not just Doddy who’s felt the lash of your tongue in the past.

Also to imply that it’s only the "apologists" who have been mud-slinging is, at very best, inaccurate. Just read the strand above.

Finally though your point about arguments being based on their own logic - and not just on some anti-stance - is excellent. I agree. But it’s somewhat alienating when you describe the people who need convincing (by the context I can only presume those who are less than happy by the manager) as "us" - as if there is a burden of proof on those who rate Moyes to convince you, the jury.

Following this up with a finger-wagging about certain people thinking they are better than other people is pretty funny. Maybe you don’t realise how pious you sound.

"But think what you are saying when you admonish other fans to "get behind the team"... What the hell do you think they are doing? Why the hell do you think they are here? Would they even bother in the first place if this was not all about "getting behind the team"?"

Absolutely spot on this, why the hell would we be taking precious time out to come on here venting our spleen if we didn’t really care? Were angry because we care about the club and want better. Of course we’ll shout the boys on if thats the suggestion but were not going to settle for a crap manager who has reached his plateau. I’m not going to settle for the fucking idiots running this club either.

Simon, let me have yet another go just for you.

Running this site, I’ve never suffered fools gladly, which is part and parcel of maintaining the quality on this website. People who write in saying things that are blatantly stupid or plain wrong get short shrift: always have, always will. It also has the side effect of alienating the fools, but so be it. The ones who understand the score accept it as a condition of use! Doody falls firmly into that category with most of his inane postings. Marsh does too on occasions, if you have noticed.

So it’s interesting to see you twist what I wrote to say something regarding: "people who need convincing ... as if there is a burden of proof on those who rate Moyes to convince you, the jury."

You really don’t get it, do you? If you want to support Moyes and back him to the hilt, that’s fine by me. Absolutely fine. If you want to try and convince someone of that who doesn’t believe it, that’s your issue. You can try it if you must but I get a pissed when appolgists like you write things like "Persepctive" and "Get real..." as an intro to the appologist mantra, as if that somehow puts your opinion above everyone else’s. Well it doesn’t.

I’m not putting myself out as being some kind of ’jury’ on Moyes (where the fuck did you get that from?). I know what I think about Moyes and I know whose opinions carry weight when I read them. And that should be the position for everyone who reads these pages: to judge the views on their merits and not on the basis of dubious claims for a greater knowledge, being a better shader of Blue, or coming from some higher moral ground. That, as I said, is bullshit.

Interesting thread and have to admit that some of the nonsense supporting the mistakes made on Thursday night which began with David Moyes’ squad selection and team formation and subsequent method of play; the three integral components of the game. Some of the usual suspects even admitted David Moyes had indeed made some terrible mistakes and that the ever present chance the Everton "pub side" are more likely to appear than the Everton "contenders" side that we have seen too fleetingly. You must all agree that the buck has to stop with David Moyes, it’s his squad, and that included a player on loan that could have been recalled to cover the injuries and provide an extra dimension from the bench, all too glaringly on Thursday evening the faults that could have been changed quickly such as men on the pitch and formation and thus the play were not changed. Simple things; when playing against less men stretch them by moving the ball on the floor but it kept up the old hoofball, a player that misses a penalty doesn’t take another straight again, all this is not magical hindsight it’s things that most youth teams know. So apologise all you can but please don’t insult the intelligence of well formed discussion that question why simple things are continually done so badly.

"Running this site, I?ve never suffered fools gladly, which is part and parcel of maintaining the quality on this website. People who write in saying things that are blatantly stupid or plain wrong get short shrift: always have, always will"

Fair enough Michael, so your view will always be the correct one then?



"I know what I think about Moyes and I know whose opinions carry weight when I read them"

Again fair enough about your own thoughts but how do you know whose opinions carry weight? Do I need to be a regular or a "personality" before my views are considered viable? or simply an Anti-Moyes person?

Yes, Tony, as Editor of this site, I do have some say in what gets posted (although we have opened up the virtually uncontrollable floodgates when it comes to Comments!). So my opinion carries some weight... be a bit daft having an Editor at all if it didn’t, surely?

You may think I use that position to promote and encourage anti-Moyes content. If that’s what you think, so be it. I actually use that position to assess mailbag and other submissions and ask the question: is this worth publishing?

If it says something like "I think David Moyes took up a massive challenge with EFC and has done a fairly good job overall..." of course I’ll publish it, even if I happen to disagree with it. On the other hand, if some prick writes in "You fuckin twats all u lot is gud 4 iz whingin n moanin get behind the team!" well, guess what? When it comes to making that call, I make it, and it’s "correct" within the parameters we have defined for the operation of this website.

It may be a lame example but that’s basically the choice. There is a high level of quality in most of the stuff we receive and I think that’s great. Then there’s the dross, most of which seems to come from kids who have just found the internet, and who can’t believe that an Everton website for Evertonians does not function quite in the same way as they themselves might in the school playground defending the honour of their team against all-comers.

I’m here to encourage reasonably intelligent discussion about the Blues. It doesn’t have to be pro-Moyes or anti-Moyes or anything else for that matter, other than that it should be about Everton. I ’know’ intrinsically which pieces carry weight; they are usually (a) intelligently presented (b) well argued (c) written in English and (d) not condescending or repetitive, especially regarding things we all know already (like "Everton were perennial relegation candidates until Moyes came six years ago")

You do not appear to have posted anything to the Maibag, Tony (only comments*), and I hope it is not for fear of rejection. Let’s hear what you think about something near and dear to your heart related to our beloved Blues...

* Actually you may have and in last week’s deluge, I may have reassigned it as a comment. Sorry.