I agree. I’ve noticed Moyes very rarely criticises the Midfield?

This is obviously where the problem lies. We’re ruining Johnson, we’ll ruin Yakubu and even Arteta’s recent displays have been worrying!

Once Moyes had finished his pre-season buying and had Arteta, Grav, Baines and Cahill in the squad I reckon he, along with me, was excited about Everton finally having the resources to play a more attractive, expansive, passing, attacking style. I think you’ve hit the nail on the head, in that he is trying to play that more attacking style without the right players being available.

Until they are available, I hope he’ll revert back to the five in midfield that, with the palyers who are currently fit, has produced good results in previous years.

We have a better squad - fact. They might just need time to adapt to playing a different way. It won’t happen overnight - we started the season brightly against some poor teams and got some good results, now perhaps things are settling down and they just need some time to ’bed in’

Arteta is a big miss, as are Cahill & Vaughan (Anichebe tries hard but he’s not up the grade in my opinion) Look at Chelsea with Drogba and Lampard missing; struggling to win games badly so we’re not alone.

Sacking Moyes would be a bad idea, giving him and the team time to get it right would be a good idea.

Bitter Blues? You betcha! All the doom-mongers need to grow up and pipe down. Get behind the team and the manager, who incidentally has done a darn sight more for Everton than all of us put together and deserves respect not people calling for his head due to a run of bad results. You should all be ashamed of yourselves.

What do people think of playing 5-3-2 with Stubbs, Lescott and Yobo at the back with Neville and Baines as wing backs. Jagielka, Arteta and Gravesen in the middle with Yakubu and Johnson up front, or even Cahill playing off Vaughan. That should makes us stronger at the back, with the ability for players to come forward and support the strikers without leaving the defence too exposed. And the versatility of players like Jagielka and Neville we should be able too switch back to more conventional formations if the needs be.

I like the formation Andy.

Sheff Wed 0 Everton 2
Everton 3 Middlesboro 0
Metalist 0 Everton 2

Crisis over 3 clean sheets we are in the top 4, group stages of UEFA Cup,
Arteta, Gravesen, Cahill, Howard and Vaughan eventually fit
Moyes is best manager since slice bread
Hibbert starts to play well.
Neville strings two passes together.
AJ and Yakubu strike form
McFadden is superb.
LETS LIVE THE DREAM BOYS ENOUGH OF THIS PROPHECY OF DOOM DOOM DOOM

If my Sister had balls, she’d be my Brother.

I actually think you’ve misinterpreted what Moyes said Ian. He was criticising our play in our own final third (i.e. the sloppy defending) no arguments there. Also he was criticising the play in their final third (no penetration, not enough chances created, losing possession having got it forward) again no arguments there.

The reason he didn’t criticise our play in the middle third was actually because it wasn’t that bad. I don’t know if you watched the game but the ball was, for once, being stroked around nicely on the ground for large portions. The problem came when we tried to turn that into meaningful attacks in their final third at which point things fell apart. That was the great frustration of Sunday for me. We actually did ok in terms of ball retention and keeping it on the ground but we couldn’t do anything with once we’d worked our way forward and gave away two poor goals at the back.

Lets make one thing clear: I am certainly NOT of the opinion that we should sack Moyes! I just feel that occasionally he can’t see whats happening right in front of his nose. I don’t beleive its doom mongering to suggest that saturdays problem lay in the area Moyes thought it didn’t. Of course our squad has improved and yes, a couple of good results down the line and I’ll be singing a different tune, but we may also look at the end of the season when we’ve missed out on Europe by 1 point at one off fixtures such as Villa and say to ourselves "could’ve played it better with 5 in the middle"?

I’m not a football manager and Moyes is obviously more talented than any of us in that area, but I’m not blind, I do go to the game every week and I’m dammend if we we’re ok between the two boxes at the weekend!

John Holmes:

I understand what your saying, but I still feel at the midfield let us down badly. No width, giving the ball away far too cheaply putting unnecessary added pressure on our back four. On the strength of this one game I would say inbetween the two boxes we were at least as bad as the areas Moyes hit upon!

The whole unit needs an overhaul. I don’t think anyone disagrees about a switch to Neville at right-back. We’re desperately crying out for Cahill and Gravesent to give us some options in the centre of midfield. Some people reckon Arteta should play there but personally I think he’s fine on the flanks so long as he’s not the only player the opposition have to worry about otherwise he’s marked out of existence.

I thought the midfield was terrible at the weekend. By far our worst area!
Your right Ian, whilst we can all say things will get better when players return, these are vital points we are missing out on through tactical mistakes! 5 in the mid for me until we have the players that can cope with a four!

Is it just me or is this not such an obvious improvement option:

Neville to right back
Hibbert dropped

I’d also put Arteta back in the middle with Jags for now. have 2 from Osman, Pienaar, McFadden out wide and one up front untill we get Cahill back. I know not everyone will agree with that, but does anyone disagree with the Neville to right back bit?

I think this whole "midfield was poor" approach is somewhat reductive in a discussion of the quality of football we played at Villa. Having watched the game, I think there was a much more concerted effort to keep the ball on the ground, play short passes and be patient (definitely in comparison to what we saw in the UEFA cup the other night).

The thing is though, playing creative / attractive football isn’t the sole burden of the midfield. It starts with the defenders and carries through to the forwards. The basis of playing expansive football (as a catch-all term for attractive, creative etc.) is 4 defenders who are comfortable on the ball, can get it under control quickly, move forward with it, see a simple short pass and make it. Currently, on paper at least, we have 2 defenders who can do this. Replace Hibbert with Neville and we could potentially have the full complement of 4.

So once you have your 4 ball-playing defenders, you put an onus on the midfield to make the most of them. This involves players who are willing to come short and show for the ball, even with their backs to the opposition’s goal, control the ball, turn, move and make a simple pass.

Now that you’ve played the ball through the midfield nicely, the focus is on the forwards to do something. This largely involves players making intelligent runs, telling the midfield where they want the ball played, controlling the ball when they get it, shooting when possible and retaining posession when it’s not. Forwards should be dragging defenders around the final 3rd, making their markers lives a misery. Into the spaces left behind the midfields run it, or maybe even the full backs if you’re playing very expansively.

And that, in a nutshell, is how you play expansive football. So much for the theory, where do Everton actually fall down in the practice? Well, as I’ve already alluded to, at the back the most obvious culprit is Hibbert. But, and this is a big but, he shouldn’t be made a scapegoat. If you know your right-back is terrible on the ball, don’t bloody pass it to him all the time. Even when the opposition set themselves up to force you to pass to him, don’t do it. And I have no doubt that some of the teams we’ve played recently do try to force us into playing the ball through Hibbert. But we have to be better than that.

Still at the back, the first touches of Yobo and Lescott both leave an awful lot to be desired too much of the time. Both of these guys are fine footballers, so maybe it’s nerves or lack of concentration or something else, but too often they control the ball 2 or 3 metres away from their bodies. Opposition press up and we lose the ball. The only defender I’d absolve of blame at present is Baines. Quality footballer, composed and intelligent, a beacon in a sea of mediocrity at the minute.

Into midfield then. None, and I mean none, of our players who’ve played midfield in the last 2 games are prepared to, or want to, come short and show for the ball. They all either don’t want the ball at all (Carsley and Neville), or can’t control it when they do get it (Osman in particular). This means that, when the defence succeeds in bringing the ball out, they are often left with no-one to pass to. When they do make a pass, too often the ball is kicked back to them immediately. This drives me mad; it’s like give and go was never taught to these guys. Pass and move, pass and move. Fairly simple in theory at least.

Up front, Johnson’s first touch is poor, Yakubu’s doesn’t look great and McFadden... well don’t get me started about McFadden. Suffice it to say that he doesn’t have a first touch worthy of the name. Johnson makes runs aplenty, Yakubu seems to get fed-up very quickly, Anichebe doesn’t have the intelligent runs part to his game yet and McFadden... well don’t get me started on McFadden.

So: we have a defence that can’t bring the ball out, a midfield that doesn’t want it and a forward line that can’t do much with it. Which all in all seems pretty harsh, but I suspect it’s not far from the truth. We badly need Arteta back. Maybe we even need Gravesen more (and I never thought I’d say that) as Arteta doesn’t show short often enough for my liking. Gravesen at least will demand the ball from the defence. And, and I think this is important, if they don’t give it to him properly he’ll have a go at them. I think we need a little bit of the players having a go at each other at this point. Not slagging, just calling a spade a spade.

All round though, we need movement and mobility. Very average players can play attractive football if they put their minds to it. They have to take responsibility for their actions, look for the ball and know what they’re going to do with it before they get it. Then you can add an Arteta to the mix who can see a final ball, played into space for the forwards to run onto. I think once Yak sees chances being created for him, he’ll get a lot more interested.

But back to my main point; don’t blame the midfield alone for the current problems. All the players are culpable and they all need to take a long look at themselves, get onto the training pitch and start to get comfortable with a football again. Then, we might see some expansive football. No guarantees we’ll actually score any goals, but if you don’t create you definitely won’t score!

Steve Hunt.
How can you criticise something you hav’nt got ?

I dont think we can blame players
for poor performances any more.The buck has to stop with the manager.Its no coincidence that nearly every player Moyes signs in the end they become a shadow of thier former selves.Just take alook at the past 2 years. Koldrup,ADVM
Davies Neville,Johnson,YakubU and no doubt Arteta next have all suffered under Moyes.Add to that the once promising Hibbert who is now so confused with his role he ends up punting ball after ball>to no one just so he can get rid of possesion.Why cant you Moyes Minions see what Deadly Dave is doing to the squad,the club and the fans.He killing us in a cruel slow way and it has to stop.<>Just think about it.How can any player make a difference when all they are told to do is clear the lines and chase the fucking ball.>Get Moyes out before he can ruinS the likes of Anichebe and Vaughan.>Who were being taught the game by Colin Harvey before Gobshite Moyes sacked him.I hate to think what cant of crap our youth team players are being taught these days by Moyes and his deadly team.

Dave Lynch
Posted 25/09/2007 at 15:58:17
Report abuse
Steve Hunt.
How can you criticise something you hav?nt got ?


What am I criticising? And what’s the not got bit about?

A perfect example of how crappy our midfield is.

In the Metalist game, the midfielders were getting to the half way line, had acres of space in which to run into, but instead of moving forward with purpose time and time again they would stop dead, check back and give Lescott or Yobo the ball and say "go on, you take it up there cos I haven’t got a clue". Absolutely true, watch the game again (actually I wouldn’t want to inflict that on anyone twice!).

You can say we’ve got injuries and limited options, but these are professional footballers, first choice, third choice or whatever!
You have to wonder about what goes on at the training ground, you really do!

Steve Hunt.
Steve i was alluding to the midfield you said he never critises.
Get it now !

erm......

think so????