The Mail Bag
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In the wake of Joleon Lescott`s emergence as an England player, I got to thinking how many `ordinary` players had been developed into household names under the tutelage of David Moyes. Rooney, Lescott and Andy Johnson are now automatic picks by the England manager whilst James McFadden is hailed as `The Pride of Scotland`. Tim Howard and Phil Neville, International outcasts in their latter days with Man Utd, have seen their careers re-invigorated at Everton whilst Mickel Arteta, although so far overlooked by Spain because of the internal politics of that country, is now the most coveted midfielder in Europe. And who had heard of Tim Cahill before Moyes brought him here and transformed him into and International super star just as he did with Joseph Yobo?
Whilst Evertonians can all glow with pride at the achievements of Davey`s pupils we can be assured that the fairy story will continue as we wait to see youngsters Anichebe and Vaughan turned into polished diamonds!
Richard Dodd, Posted 18/10/2007 at 14:26:37
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Mark Dodd
2 Posted 18/10/2007 at 15:22:01
2 Posted 18/10/2007 at 15:22:01
How dare you discuss David Moyes’ positives. How very dare you. Don’t you know what this site is all about? David Moyes is shit - he only turns good players bad not the other way round. Think befoire you speak.
How very dare you
How very dare you
David Barks
3 Posted 18/10/2007 at 15:43:15
3 Posted 18/10/2007 at 15:43:15
What exactly are you smoking Dodd because I want some of it. I’m one of the people who thinks Moyes is doing a good job, but what you just wrote is utterly ridiculous. Lescott and Johnson are hardly automatic picks. Lescott just made his first start, how exactly is that an automatic pick. AJ has had a handful of opportunities and has yet to score, and will not see playing time if Rooney and Owen are both fit at the same time. Tim Howard and Phil Neville were international outcasts???? Howard was always in the U.S. team, but was behind Casey Keller and Brad Friedel as they were more experienced and veteran players. Friedel retired, and Keller got too old, so naturally Howard would be made the number one keeper. Just stop it with these ridiculous posts, you make those of us who do support Moyes and the job he is doing look like fools. Moyes has a lot of room for improvement, style of football being one of them, and consistency of results being another.
David Barks
4 Posted 18/10/2007 at 15:58:57
4 Posted 18/10/2007 at 15:58:57
And I almost forgot. Arteta the most coveted midfielder in Europe???? So Europe’s top clubs would rather have Arteta over Fabregas, Ronaldo, Gerrard, Lampard, Essien, Malouda, Joe Cole. And that’s just midfielders from the Premiership that I’m sure if Barcelona or Madrid had their pick of a midfielder to sign, they would sign before Arteta. Arteta is very good, but get back to reality Dodd.
Martin Wallace
5 Posted 18/10/2007 at 16:11:23
5 Posted 18/10/2007 at 16:11:23
I agree with Dave Barks - you just make yourself sound daft Richard. By all means write what you believe in - but I sense you’ve been happy to go over the top here just to provoke a tedious ’pro-Moyes / anti-Moyes’ debate.
Neil Pearse
6 Posted 18/10/2007 at 16:32:29
6 Posted 18/10/2007 at 16:32:29
As always, I think Doddy undermines himself by massively overstating his case. I think the truth - which all readers of this site pretty much know - is that Moyes changes players who come under his ’tutelage’ in a certain way. And that that is good for some players and not for others.
In a nutshell, he makes players harder working and generally a bit tougher physically (although there’s not much he can do with Osman). I think that has, generally, been good for Arteta. No doubt he is a stronger and better tackler now. Whether he would have fared better under a Wenger is (as yet) unknown.
I think with AJ Moyes’ coaching has unhelpfully exaggerated tendencies he already has (i.e. rather than giving thumbs up to stupid hoofballs into the corner flag he should be telling the hoofer to sort out his act and give him a proper pass).
I think McFadden still runs around like a headless chicken, after years with Moyes. And I don’t see that Moyes has done anything more with Lescott, Yobo and Cahill that another competent Premiership manager would have done (which is not to say he has done nothing to develop these players).
In a nutshell, he makes players harder working and generally a bit tougher physically (although there’s not much he can do with Osman). I think that has, generally, been good for Arteta. No doubt he is a stronger and better tackler now. Whether he would have fared better under a Wenger is (as yet) unknown.
I think with AJ Moyes’ coaching has unhelpfully exaggerated tendencies he already has (i.e. rather than giving thumbs up to stupid hoofballs into the corner flag he should be telling the hoofer to sort out his act and give him a proper pass).
I think McFadden still runs around like a headless chicken, after years with Moyes. And I don’t see that Moyes has done anything more with Lescott, Yobo and Cahill that another competent Premiership manager would have done (which is not to say he has done nothing to develop these players).
Arawn Danecourt
7 Posted 18/10/2007 at 16:59:52
7 Posted 18/10/2007 at 16:59:52
Didnt take long for the england are shit debate to pass on did it? - I think people have got the messaage that there will be no uk representation in austria next year. At least the locals will be happy.
Im not for all this Moyes is god, moyes is crap, moyes is the best invention since the wheel. - To me, he is a bright young manager with limited funds and an awkward hierarchy in a difficult job with one of the biggest clubs in the country. How many people at the start of his reign thought he would achieve something, maybe not straight away but within the first few years. Thought not. And this season at least we can maybe, just maybe do something. A uefa cup group that is progressable, a league cup last 16 that should not prove too much of an obstacle, and some shit on saturday (cant think who they are) that seem to be going through a little dark spell. Lets not show them the light at the end of the tunnel. I always say this- toffeeweb is a forum that lets everton supporters vent their views and frustrations. of course people will say things that others will not concur with. But that is the whole point of coming on here. Its good that mostly decent fans of this club from all over the world as i understand it can have their respective say. And each day there is a different topic and viewpoint. It can get a bit tedious at times but something new comes up and debates can restart. Lets give those red shites a good game on saturday. Im looking forward to seeing gerrard having a face like a scalded dog for the second time in a week. EFC 1878
Im not for all this Moyes is god, moyes is crap, moyes is the best invention since the wheel. - To me, he is a bright young manager with limited funds and an awkward hierarchy in a difficult job with one of the biggest clubs in the country. How many people at the start of his reign thought he would achieve something, maybe not straight away but within the first few years. Thought not. And this season at least we can maybe, just maybe do something. A uefa cup group that is progressable, a league cup last 16 that should not prove too much of an obstacle, and some shit on saturday (cant think who they are) that seem to be going through a little dark spell. Lets not show them the light at the end of the tunnel. I always say this- toffeeweb is a forum that lets everton supporters vent their views and frustrations. of course people will say things that others will not concur with. But that is the whole point of coming on here. Its good that mostly decent fans of this club from all over the world as i understand it can have their respective say. And each day there is a different topic and viewpoint. It can get a bit tedious at times but something new comes up and debates can restart. Lets give those red shites a good game on saturday. Im looking forward to seeing gerrard having a face like a scalded dog for the second time in a week. EFC 1878
Mike Whittaker
8 Posted 18/10/2007 at 17:36:52
8 Posted 18/10/2007 at 17:36:52
Richard - can you let me know at what stage was Rooney an ’ordinary’ player. For instance do ordinary players beat the England goalkeeper on their debut at 16 from 30 yards?
Neil Pearse
9 Posted 18/10/2007 at 17:45:38
9 Posted 18/10/2007 at 17:45:38
And I think you might find that the Evertonian who deserves most credit for Rooney is Colin Harvey.
Michael Newton
10 Posted 18/10/2007 at 17:48:16
10 Posted 18/10/2007 at 17:48:16
How ordinary is an 18yo that cost 27.5m, that doesnt sound ordinary to me
sam morrison
11 Posted 18/10/2007 at 18:13:41
11 Posted 18/10/2007 at 18:13:41
Richard whilst your positivity is heartening statements like the one above are just silly, for all the reasons David Barks listed. Why must your faith Moyes be so evangelical? Everyone would take you more seriously if you refrained from the hyperbole.
Brett Bradshaw
12 Posted 18/10/2007 at 18:13:42
12 Posted 18/10/2007 at 18:13:42
It had to happen that way, he couldnt afford the name players.
Searching through his price range (the championship, scotland and subs) he picked the best in Cahill, Lescott, AJ, Arteta, Howard... etc. Simple AS.
Searching through his price range (the championship, scotland and subs) he picked the best in Cahill, Lescott, AJ, Arteta, Howard... etc. Simple AS.
colin potter
13 Posted 18/10/2007 at 18:31:50
13 Posted 18/10/2007 at 18:31:50
Mark Dodd, there are many true words spoken in jest my friend !!
Tony Marsh
14 Posted 18/10/2007 at 21:23:51
14 Posted 18/10/2007 at 21:23:51
Moyes had nuthin to do with Rooneys development he[Rooney] was all the rage at Everton long before Moyes reared his ginger bonce .We can credit Moyes for being one of the factors that drove Shrek away though.In fact I reckon Moyes was more to blame for Rooney leaving than Agents or money.As for Vaughan he was here before Moyes also and Colin Harvey brought him up.Moyes sacked Harvey for no other reason than Colin was a better coach than him.Disgracefull way to treat an Everton legend.The kids who come throught e ranks from now on can be classed as Moyes prodigys so judge him by this new generation.Hoofball robots should be falling off the conveyor belt any day now Richard.
Steve Ryan
15 Posted 18/10/2007 at 23:26:00
15 Posted 18/10/2007 at 23:26:00
Davey?s ?achievements? do not make me glow with pride ? indeed, his brand of football turns my stomach.
Barry Lightfoot
16 Posted 19/10/2007 at 05:56:58
16 Posted 19/10/2007 at 05:56:58
Tony I think you’ll find Colin Harvey retired as his joints from the waist down are mostly plastic, if he holiday’d abroad he’d probably melt. He’s more of an Airfix kit these days.
Why do people rise to Mr Dodds bait I bet he’s laughing his socks off at the reaction he gets on here.
Why do people rise to Mr Dodds bait I bet he’s laughing his socks off at the reaction he gets on here.
David Barks
17 Posted 19/10/2007 at 06:43:47
17 Posted 19/10/2007 at 06:43:47
Tony,
You could have just let it go, everyone was saying how over the top Dodds comments were. But then you come with something equally as ridiculous but from the other perspective. You and Dodd are just extremists, there’s no middle ground with you people. Saying that Moyes fired Harvey because he was threatened by him??? And Vaughan was brought up by Moyes, he’s only 19 years old and Moyes has been here for more than 5 years now. It was Moyes that brought him up into the first team and it was Moyes who was the manager who gave Vaughan his first chance and it was Moyes who was manager while Vaughan shined last season. Why can’t you and Dodd see that everything is not always black and white, there is a gray area, there is a middle ground. Moyes is neither the greatest manager to ever grace the earth as Dodd seems to believe nor is he the incompetent fool you make him out to be. And claiming that it was Moyes who was mostly to blame for Rooney leaving, more than agents and money. You’re cutting off your nose to spite your face now. Rooney personifies everything that is wrong with the modern game, kissing the United badge to rub it in the face of Evertonians when he scored. What a class act he is, indeed. Rooney left for the payday believing he could attain instant glory by leaving for United instead of trying to work to make his boyhood club great again.
You could have just let it go, everyone was saying how over the top Dodds comments were. But then you come with something equally as ridiculous but from the other perspective. You and Dodd are just extremists, there’s no middle ground with you people. Saying that Moyes fired Harvey because he was threatened by him??? And Vaughan was brought up by Moyes, he’s only 19 years old and Moyes has been here for more than 5 years now. It was Moyes that brought him up into the first team and it was Moyes who was the manager who gave Vaughan his first chance and it was Moyes who was manager while Vaughan shined last season. Why can’t you and Dodd see that everything is not always black and white, there is a gray area, there is a middle ground. Moyes is neither the greatest manager to ever grace the earth as Dodd seems to believe nor is he the incompetent fool you make him out to be. And claiming that it was Moyes who was mostly to blame for Rooney leaving, more than agents and money. You’re cutting off your nose to spite your face now. Rooney personifies everything that is wrong with the modern game, kissing the United badge to rub it in the face of Evertonians when he scored. What a class act he is, indeed. Rooney left for the payday believing he could attain instant glory by leaving for United instead of trying to work to make his boyhood club great again.
patty blue
18 Posted 19/10/2007 at 09:34:33
18 Posted 19/10/2007 at 09:34:33
Well said, David Banks, I couldn’t have put my thoughts on the matter, which co-incide with yours, as well as you did.
Michael Newton
19 Posted 19/10/2007 at 09:26:19
19 Posted 19/10/2007 at 09:26:19
I think Colin Harvey retired due to plastic hip surgery.
He was a great coach but like many great coaches eg Sammy Le, he didnt make the step up succesfully to management. Arguably you could put McLaren into that category if you are the opinion he was a good coach.
You are born with talent the talent isnt put into you by coaches. Vaughan has significant talent lets hope it is nurtured to make him a great player who remains here at Everton.
He was a great coach but like many great coaches eg Sammy Le, he didnt make the step up succesfully to management. Arguably you could put McLaren into that category if you are the opinion he was a good coach.
You are born with talent the talent isnt put into you by coaches. Vaughan has significant talent lets hope it is nurtured to make him a great player who remains here at Everton.
Mark Dodd
20 Posted 19/10/2007 at 11:24:01
20 Posted 19/10/2007 at 11:24:01
I warned you Rich lad. I warned you. Never again speak highly of our manager on this website ... or you shall be struck down by a swarm of anti Moyes locust.
phil J
21 Posted 19/10/2007 at 11:38:56
21 Posted 19/10/2007 at 11:38:56
What a load of Bullshit, anyone who hadnt heard of AJ, Cahill etc before they turned out for the blues has no true football Knowledge. Pull your head out of the sand and start watching pure football terms like Seville and Arsenal.
Peter Venkman
22 Posted 19/10/2007 at 11:53:10
22 Posted 19/10/2007 at 11:53:10
Cahill was a fine and creative player scoring freely for Millwall before he was purchased and was instrumental in getting a average side to a recent FA CUP final. Everybody outside of lewisham was amazed at this club reaching english footballs annual showpiece. the same goes for johnson, playing for a average championship side, that also reached wembley incidentally in the same year , attracted attention with his scoring exploits and numerous penalties (which he cannot duplicate for us for love nor money). While cahill has (last season at least) carried on where he left off scoring vital goals and being a major contributor to the side as a whole, andrew has found the step up from championship that bit harder to adjust to. I would wager that if he was to go in january (of course he wont, that would be a waste of 8 million pounds) , back to a championship side he would soon start being on scoresheets. look at beattie as a prime example. Of course im well aware of the difference in class between top flight and championship but nonetheless thats my input.
Mike Carlisle
23 Posted 19/10/2007 at 13:08:52
23 Posted 19/10/2007 at 13:08:52
I like you Tony Marsh,
You remind me of Rumplestiltskin. A misunderstood fellow whose only aim was to dance exotically to the hits of Billy Ocean without fear of some wench calling out his name.
Now you do split yourself in half from time to time due to the pent up anger over said wench’s revealing your name, but you cant help it. Its just in your nature man.
Your a maverick, a rebel and a damn decent fellow at that.
You remind me of Rumplestiltskin. A misunderstood fellow whose only aim was to dance exotically to the hits of Billy Ocean without fear of some wench calling out his name.
Now you do split yourself in half from time to time due to the pent up anger over said wench’s revealing your name, but you cant help it. Its just in your nature man.
Your a maverick, a rebel and a damn decent fellow at that.
John Lloyd
24 Posted 19/10/2007 at 13:51:43
24 Posted 19/10/2007 at 13:51:43
Tony, has your hatred for Moyes just caused you to blame him for Rooney going. Your memory is either very short, your blinded by hatred or you seriously have not got a clue. So I’m not even getting into it with you, but one thing, and this is my opinion alone mate, the more hatred and shite you spew about Moyes justs makes people scroll over what you say very quickly. You lose all credibility cos of the tosh you speak, and to be fair when you’ve got your sensible head on you make some decent points.
John Lloyd
25 Posted 19/10/2007 at 13:57:13
25 Posted 19/10/2007 at 13:57:13
Then to further suggest he sacked Harvey cos he was a better coach!!! That is such bollocks. You are the old tit in the corner of every pub who spews the same old shit week after week. Turn it in Tony!
patty
26 Posted 19/10/2007 at 14:13:12
26 Posted 19/10/2007 at 14:13:12
Mike Carlisle - Can I have some of what you are on? Either I am thick - which I definitely am not. Or I have lost my Scouse sense of humour - which I definitely have not.....but I just canot understand what the hell you are on about!!
Allan Hobbs
27 Posted 19/10/2007 at 14:27:38
27 Posted 19/10/2007 at 14:27:38
Patty - John is doing the old ’Im not going to get into this with you’ routine followed by...well......getting into it with him....twice!
Allan Hobbs
28 Posted 19/10/2007 at 14:30:47
28 Posted 19/10/2007 at 14:30:47
I’ll get me coat....
Peter Venkman
29 Posted 19/10/2007 at 14:52:00
29 Posted 19/10/2007 at 14:52:00
The school of science is turning into the pre-school of petty disagreements. Any more and you can all go and stand in the corner and have saturday detention tomorrow. You know what that will constitute -
Brian Waring
30 Posted 19/10/2007 at 14:39:27
30 Posted 19/10/2007 at 14:39:27
Peter,I have heard some good exscuses as to AJ not scoring,but to say he found the step up from the championship to the prem that bit harder to adjust to, is daft.The last time he was in the prem with Palace he was banging them in.He has got into double figures with us.It is down to being asked to chase balls down the flanks that are being hoofed up to him.Thats the reason he has only scored once since March.
Allan Hobbs
31 Posted 19/10/2007 at 15:07:33
31 Posted 19/10/2007 at 15:07:33
The stats say that AJ’s had more shots on goal than most strikers in the premier league, not so long ago he’d had more shots than anyone so to say its cos he’s been out wide alot is, well.....pardon the pun....wide of the mark.
Dirk Kuyt’s hasn’t scored this season by the way, AJ has 1 more than him and more shots on target.
Dirk Kuyt’s hasn’t scored this season by the way, AJ has 1 more than him and more shots on target.
Brian Waring
32 Posted 19/10/2007 at 15:12:24
32 Posted 19/10/2007 at 15:12:24
Allan,if what you say is right,that AJ has had more shots on goal than most strikers in the prem,then that stat doesn’t look too good for him,does it? plenty of chances,but can’t put them away.Also I’m struggling to come to terms with your stat.I go to nearly all the home games and plenty of away,and when AJ is playing,I’m not seeing all these attempts.All I see is the ball hoofed up,and AJ running his balls off to catch it.
Allan Hobbs
33 Posted 19/10/2007 at 15:43:11
33 Posted 19/10/2007 at 15:43:11
I agree Brian, his stats are shit but I asure you I’m right about the amount of shots he’s had - hard to believe I know but its true, sadly!
David Barks
34 Posted 19/10/2007 at 15:45:37
34 Posted 19/10/2007 at 15:45:37
Brian, AJ has had plenty of shots on goal, but has far too often put it right at the keeper. Remember late in the game against Spurs, one on one with Robinson and Robinson got a finger to it. That should have been a goal. Against United had a header cleared off the line. Against Reading had a clear shot at goal on a rebound and missed it. He also had another very good chance in that game and it was blocked/cleared off the line by a defender. Against Metalist he missed two penalties. Those are five opportunities, when only counting one of the chances against Reading and not both of them, that AJ really should have scored on. That would have brought his total to six on the season, 4 in the league. And those are all very legitimate goal scoring opportunites, not just shots on goal. You can’t blame Moyes for those, try all you want but AJ has had opportunities to score this season but was in a slump. When he came on against Newcastle he was looking like the player we had last season and what do you know he got a goal. Unfortunately he needed surgery afterward as well. So after all this AJ has one fewer goal in the league than Tevez, should Ferguson be sacked because it’s his fault that suddenly Tevez has forgotten how to score goals?
Connor Rohrer
35 Posted 19/10/2007 at 18:36:15
35 Posted 19/10/2007 at 18:36:15
Moyes has a good eye for a player and is good at bringing youngsters through but in terms of improving then dramatically I dont think so. Rooney is a one in a lifetime. Anyone who says he hasn?t improved needs to watch him closesly because he is quality. His talent out grew everton and the players around him. Vaughan was not brought up by Moyes or Harvey actually it was Andy Holden. I like the fellah. If he likes the look of a player he gives them extra training lessons which is a very good method. Anichebe wouldn?t be a proffessional footballer if it wasn?t for Holden and to a lesser extent either would Vaughan. Anichebe was on his way out yet his talent grew rapidly over a year and Holden should take the credit for that not Moyes or Harvey.
The one player I think has imporved vastly under Moyes is Mikel Arteta. He was a nomad when he joined and now he is our best player. Moyes improved him physically, mentally and also moved him outwide which in my opinion done him the world of good. Other than that though no one springs to mind. Cahill was already a goalscoring midfielder and Lescott would have been playing in the premiership earliar if it wasnt for his knee injury.
The one player I think has imporved vastly under Moyes is Mikel Arteta. He was a nomad when he joined and now he is our best player. Moyes improved him physically, mentally and also moved him outwide which in my opinion done him the world of good. Other than that though no one springs to mind. Cahill was already a goalscoring midfielder and Lescott would have been playing in the premiership earliar if it wasnt for his knee injury.
Richard Dodd
36 Posted 19/10/2007 at 19:40:43
36 Posted 19/10/2007 at 19:40:43
Good to see that most people acknowledge that Davey has ’added value’to all the players he inherited and brought in.Even Beattie has a new dimention to his game since his time at Goodison.
Seb St Clare
37 Posted 19/10/2007 at 20:09:13
37 Posted 19/10/2007 at 20:09:13
Thank you Doddy for speaking up for the silent majority-most of whom stick to the more positive sites and actually get pleasure from being Evertonians!
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1 Posted 18/10/2007 at 15:18:49
he’s also turned some potentially gifted players into ordinary ones aswell though