ToffeeWeb - Season 2007-08

The Mail Bag

Something strange

In all the fire and the fury of what was and wasn't given on Saturday, I noticed something rather strange: something which I believe deserves noting.

When we went down to ten men (for whatever reason... OK then - the foul was outside the box and Gerrard threw his leg out to get fouled IN the box), for at least 20 minutes, Mr Moyes left two strikers up front! I wasnt dreaming, was I?

What's more, there was at least one corner that the RS had after the Hibbert thing had happened (and it was by now 1-1), when Mr Moyes left the two of them up front. I dont have the best memory in the world, but I am sure last year even against Watford we were bringing all 11 back to defend corners. Never mind the RS... never mind with only 9 outfield players on the pitch.

Sadly, it was from this newfound attacking mentality that we conceded the first penalty ? breakaway when only Hibbert and (I think) Osman were vaguely defending. This is not the cautious Mr Moyes of old, and I think we should applaud him for it. Are we seeing a long-overdue change in approach? Now that is strange....
Tim Kelly, Manchester Posted 22/10/2007 at 21:31:01

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Derek Thomas
1 Posted 23/10/2007 at 05:30:37

Yes it does seem there is a long overdue new tactical approach. The trouble is.....

This one, as seen on Sat and Vs Metalist is as tactically inept as his other approach, as seen Vs Spurs in Feb.

The trouble, well one of them, with regard to Mr Moyes, is he is just plain unlucky, hardly anything he tries works.

Where as, sad to say, the potential tactically banana skin by the leader of the opposition, turned into a bonus as the kid he brought on had the shot that gave them the winner.

Such is their ongoing luck, It might seem to some that they have sold their collective Shankly Souls to the Devil.

Well at least they went to the top man in the Soul selling dept.

We just sold ours to Tesco

A.codd
2 Posted 23/10/2007 at 08:13:08

If you watch the replay you will find that Hibbert shits his pants and hesitates instead of attacking the ball whilst it was in the RS half.
Secondly whilst Stevie G Laaaaaa is bombing it up the field,Lescott is half asleep and jogging back.
Although I do believe Lecott had a very good game.
Unfortunately it was a moment of awfull defending.
Sadly this is the norm for hibbert and thank christ he is suspended.

Peter Pridgeon
3 Posted 23/10/2007 at 08:17:18

This is probably going to upset a few people
The fat waiter made the tactical decision of his life on Saturday by removing Gerrard. Gerrard had got control of the game by the mid point of the second half, but he was responding to Evertons normal display of hoof ball, it was unlikely that either side was going to play football and emotion was deciding every ball (fantastic for fans but awful for the non committed) when he took off SGL the game changed the RS started to pass the ball in Evertons half and with a player down and fatigue showing it was impossible for us to combat this, Neville did all he could to stop the shot that in reality was the winner. We can complain all we like about decisions and bias but in the end we had little answer to a very good tactical decision.

Peter Pridgeon
4 Posted 23/10/2007 at 08:40:48

PS Please do not debase yourself by accusing me of being a Gobshite

Allan Hobbs
5 Posted 23/10/2007 at 09:38:08

I agree Peter, and this is basically what the waiter said in the papers this morning - a tactical decision, based partly on the emotive side of the game. Players were getting pissy with each other as usual and Gerrard would probably have been booked or sent off at some stage. better to bring on some Brazilian fella who knows bugger all about derbies......and low & behold who has the shot that Neville expertly saves on the line ala Southall?! Yes, the Brazilian fella.....

You have to say, well done to the RS in some respects, I mean if the same had happened the other way round at their place we’d all be pissing ourselves!

Peter Pridgeon
6 Posted 23/10/2007 at 09:44:35

Its hard to say well done to that rabble but it certainly was a moment of clarity by the waiter, I live in New Zealand so I don’t get the chance to read the UK papers. What really bugs me Alan; it wasn’t Moyes who had that moment of clarity, instead he storms off at the end in a fit of puerile emotion. Passion will only get you so far in this game but tactical competence could take you the whole way.

jimmy hoffa
7 Posted 23/10/2007 at 09:32:08

U know what, i think Moyes is going to stick to his attacking game. He’s not going to back off and revert to the 4-5-1.

Last two years, he thot 4-5-1 was enough to carry us thru the UEFA, but it didn’t worked. Maybe. it’s due to Beattie being the sole striker, instead of Bent messing the system up.

Now, he’s firm with 4-4-2, but the sole guy that would’ve made it worked left before he could pin him down, Manny.

And Gravesen could’ve fill in the gap, but he went injured and that spoiled everything up.

Noticed that Moyes 4-4-2 works if and only if Arteta has a partner in the attacking department. All he has right now is a bunch of holding midfileders: Carsley, Neville and Jags.

I have a good feeling abt where Moyes is heading to.

Allan Hobbs
8 Posted 23/10/2007 at 10:21:17

Celtic?

Damian Scott
9 Posted 23/10/2007 at 10:49:26

Yes, this is one thing that surprised me when hibbert walked. I was expecting staight away to see Yakubu’s number up on a board for Carsley or Pienaar to come on..

Fair play to him for sticking with the 2 strikers though. I like David Moyes, but one of the things that bugged me about his tactics was his conservatism when it came to attacking... Looks like he has turned the corner in that regard. Nice to see...

Now only if he would play Arteta, Gravesen, Cahill and Pienaar all in the one midfield :-)

Allan Hobbs
10 Posted 23/10/2007 at 11:26:26

I hate to be a pedant, but none of those players have been fit at the same time so far this season Damian. :)

David Whitwell
11 Posted 23/10/2007 at 11:29:04

Guys,

All this talk of fantastic tactics by the waiter and that our own manager is tactically inept is rubbish. I was massively impressed by Moyes after the first 15 minutes, that he realised our starting formation was not working and changed things tactically allowing Lescott to bomb forward for the best part of 40mins, but there is no mention of that on here, all we can do is praise the RS tactics for taking off Gerrard?

Allan Hobbs
12 Posted 23/10/2007 at 11:52:57

David, the essence of debate is being able to see both sides; feel free to add your weight to proceedings, but try not to attack people for voicing their opinion. you have to have both sides for their be any discussion non?

Peter Venkman
13 Posted 23/10/2007 at 11:48:49

Moyes could always revert to a 9-1-1 formation. Why not? yakubu for all the hype is as effective up front as an inflatable dartboard and johnson when back could play in defence for a while as he we dont really seem to be getting our moneys worth with him as an attacker. Maybe we could recoup some of the money we spent and have him stopping some goals.
Alternatively, why not sell all our players and get back rooney, take him to mcdonalds and have him on a all you can eat deal for a week. Put him in goal, and youd be hard pressed to get anything into the net. Maybe with the exception of clatterburg on a bulldozer slowly rumbling towards the gwladys street.

Now theres a thought.

Anto Doran
14 Posted 23/10/2007 at 11:46:19

i think the emotion thing regarding the taking off of gerrard is complete nonsense, gerrard, arguably the best player on the pitch and captain and has no injury gets taken off for some young brazilian who albeit has a hand in the winning goal was a gamble which if it had not payed off would have seen Benitez being Crucified in the press and by all RS fans! as for the 4-4-2 that moyes had adopted I dont think we has the passing skills for it, we play hoof ball and 4-5-1 suits us better with the hoof ball, unless moyes can get the players to actually pass the foookin ball then we will get slaughtered using 4-4-2 against much better opposition

Alex Quigley
15 Posted 23/10/2007 at 11:44:14

Totally agree David. This isn’t blue tinted bias, but the tactical genius that is Rafael Benitez was very lucky to scrape a win, which was decided by an appalling referee and shocking decisions (agreed by EVERY television pundit, and suprisingly, the majority of the reds I know) and not his substitution of the young brazillian for Gerard. He took Gerard off so his team could play with their heads; yet clearly Kuyt should have been sent off for exactly the opposite of playing with his head.

As for Moyes being passionate and not thinking with his head, Peter, how did you respond to the awful decisions in the game? Every Evertonian I know was passionately furious at the diabolical official...to slate Moyes says more about your... "hate moyes, get rid and beat him with every stick available approach, particularly each time we lose...regardless whether its deserved or not"...approach.

Frankly Im sick of Moyes getting slated. Im not blind to tactical short-comings, but under the man’s stewardship he has largely worked on a budget (only recently have the purse strings been loosened) and brought stability to the club. We dont have the money to attract world-class players, which is the fault of the board, and regardless of the manager Uefa and round about the top six is the best we can do. Compare the money Benitez has spent, the players Liverpool can attract, and ask yourself, does Moyes deserve any credit for the fact that whenever we play the red shite we are at least their equals, and we have been the better team against them regularly under Moyes.

How about the crazy suggestion that we get behind Moyes, give him the benefit of the doubt and stop moaning. The grass isn’t always greener.

Allan Hobbs
16 Posted 23/10/2007 at 12:06:59

Everything that ANY manager does could go one way or the other - sometimes they get it right, other times they dont. Moyes & Benitez are exactly the same in that regard. If they’d lost then he’s look like an idiot and get ripped to bits by the media, but the fact is he didnt cos they won. Its not rocket science fellas, this is a total no-brainer!

Andy Callan
17 Posted 23/10/2007 at 12:11:04

This is to Allan Hobbs - YOUR ARE NOTHING SHORT OF A KOPITE on this web site to try and wind us Blues up.

Go away and go and annoy someone else will ya, your horrible little man.

You deserve to be in the kop with all the other murdering scumbags.

Now, FUCK OFF.

Allan Hobbs
18 Posted 23/10/2007 at 12:15:13

Andy, sorry but who do you think you are?? I have every right to voice my opinion on here. I’ve been Evertonian for almost 30 years and have never been attacked like you’ve just done. What right do you have to speak to someone like that?

Moron.

Allan Hobbs
19 Posted 23/10/2007 at 12:19:04

You’ve both been reported for abuse.

seasoned campaigner
20 Posted 23/10/2007 at 12:20:52

and my dad’s bigger than your dad..........

Anto Doran
21 Posted 23/10/2007 at 12:22:34

enuff with childish remarks, children!

Andy Callan
22 Posted 23/10/2007 at 12:20:22

Just pissed off at your nonsense you constanly submit. Grow up and get back to Anfield you pillock.

Wound up still after the weekend and if I wanna swear I will.

Stop winding people up and go and report someone who gives a fuck lad.

Oh and if you get upset, go and post on the RS’s website where you belong.

Allan Hobbs
23 Posted 23/10/2007 at 12:22:47

You may be seasoned, but you’re certainly not reasoned.

I have every right to my opinion, you have no right to shout abuse at me for it. If all you can do is name-call, and use playground tactics, then to my mind, you have no place on here.

Allan Hobbs
24 Posted 23/10/2007 at 12:24:33

Andy - all I said was that when managers make a decision, it either pays off or it doesnt. This has nothing to do with Liverpool!!!

I really dont see where you’re coming from.

Andy Callan
25 Posted 23/10/2007 at 12:24:13

Childish? Tell him to stop winding us up. Betcha he wasn’t even there on Saturday. I had a 200 mile drive after that shite and was LIVID.

Reason enough to be annoyed nevermind those cheating bastards...

Andy Callan
26 Posted 23/10/2007 at 12:24:13

Allan Hobbs
27 Posted 23/10/2007 at 12:26:57

I’ve not said a single word to wind you up mate!! I just gave my opinion on management and tactics!

And no I wasnt there but I’m still entitled to an opinon.

Andy Callan
28 Posted 23/10/2007 at 12:30:12

You weren’t even there.........

Although I do agree you are entitled to your opinion, I believe that you should go.

Goodbye.

Neil McKinney
29 Posted 23/10/2007 at 12:30:06

Come on guys lay off Allan. There’s no need for the level of abuse that has been thrown at him.

However Allan, following Saturday’s nightmare derby, you may want to reconsider saying things like...

"You have to say, well done to the RS in some respects"

If you didn’t think that was going to wind some of the lads on here up then you are very naive!

Allan Hobbs
30 Posted 23/10/2007 at 12:34:27

Maybe some people need to realise that its not all about us vs them, my point is valid and i stand by it - fair play to them, we’d have done the same thing at their place - FACT.

Andy, I wasn’t there, I still dont see that you’ve made any valuable points at all. All you’ve done is spit vitriol, you clearly have nothing to say on the matter apart from abuse.

Neil - you DO have to say well done to them, IN SOME RESPECTS. Meaning - that if the boot had been on the other foot....

Andy Callan
31 Posted 23/10/2007 at 12:40:23

See - you have made my point for me.

You don’t go, then you praise them. Are you stupid or just trying to get a reaction?

I stand by what I said - YOU ARE A KOPITE.

Allan Hobbs
32 Posted 23/10/2007 at 12:42:26

Andy - do you have a reasonable bone in your body? I havent ’praised them’ its not about THEM, its about ANY OTHER TEAM doing the same thing under the circumstances. When are you going to get it into your head that my point has NOTHING TO DO WITH LIVERPOOL, they just happen to be the team in question!

I’ve been Evertonian since about 1980 for your information, not that I should have to justify myself to someone who clearly has their head in the sand.

Dave Lynch
33 Posted 23/10/2007 at 12:43:02

Allan.
Don’t try to defend yourself. To do so you would have to stoop to their level, as the only way these so called supporters can express themselves is by the abuse of others. Your’e better than that.
Your’e right. We have to discuss both sides of the coin, otherwise there is no discussion. Only one sided debate.
Liverpool where very poor on the day and a decent team would have mullered them.
Iv’e gone into work head held high, it’s the kopites who are looking sheepish so stop turning this thread into a childish slanging match.
The quicker Strachan goes the better. If you get my drift.

Peter Roberts
34 Posted 23/10/2007 at 12:57:52

It seems Moyes is damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t.

He gets criticised for being too negative, then when he goes all-out he still gets slated. Come on guys, I know he’s not the tactical genius people thinks he is, but the guy is trying. I was livid with Barry Horne on Radio City on Saturday when with 20 minutes to go he was telling Moyes to shut up shop and go for the draw. Did he not realise it was a derby game, and that everyone would have loved nothing more than to beat the Shi*e with 10 men? As far as it looked to me, Moyes was tactically sound and the only problem was upfront and a 9-bob note of a ref.

Allan Hobbs
35 Posted 23/10/2007 at 13:04:09

At last, someone with a worthy point.

Fair play to you Dave, every point correct.

And with you on the latter, at least in the sense I catch yer drift...

A.codd
36 Posted 23/10/2007 at 13:30:51

Hobb NOB

seasoned campaigner
37 Posted 23/10/2007 at 14:00:39

Allan,

It seems we have come to the end of the road on our ’little’ discussion. I applaud your objective manner and your willingness to defend your opinion. The problem is that you have made some very wrong choices in ’winding’ up fellow Blues with your post derby comments.

I like yourself have been an Evertionian since 1978, and have witnessed most things in football and have travelled all over England with my good friend Andy, to watch Everton. This year we will be traveling throughout Europe (providing we get tickets) to follow the Blues. Before you challenge me on the old one of..."He must have a great job to do this", I don’t. I have a normal job and also have two very young children, and constantly have to make choices over my spare time in order to watch Everton.... Point being if you want to go, you will.

The anger from Saturday is called ’passion’, something that is developed from watching Everton through thick and thin.

Choose your subjects more carefully or you will naturally be compared to the kopites...or someone from Norway...

Erin Kane
38 Posted 23/10/2007 at 14:13:13

Maybe im wrong but i doubt it if there are genuine liverpool supporters that "invade" these articule pages. For one, i would never entertain the thought of going onto one of their shitty websites are providing my own viritol.

Individuals like alan hobbs are indeed evertonians, i have no reason to doubt him and neither should anybody else. Everybody who contributes their opinions here are EVERTON SUPPORTERS. Some go to goodison regularly while others may never have been within 200 miles of the old lady. Some are intelligent contributors while others submit silly comments and have room temperatures IQs. You know who you are.

Stan S
39 Posted 23/10/2007 at 14:38:22

A good thread with good debate turned into a bitching/backbitting session of I’m more an Evertonian than you are finishing up with a call by one Evertonian to the other to pick his subjects more carefully in future. (do we need censorship?)

Come on guys. Yes it was a bad weekend, but lets keep it together and accept that although some points may not seem worthy of debate there is a better way to shoot someone down than hurling abuse.

Rudyard Kipling had the right idea and said it better than I ever could.

http://www.davidpbrown.co.uk/poetry/rudyard-kipling.html

Allan Hobbs
40 Posted 23/10/2007 at 17:01:45

This was never about who is the ’best’ supporter, nor was it ever about how many games one goes to. I have no idea how it got so lost! I couldnt give a damn how many games a person goes to, or how long they’ve supported the club; my comment was aimed squarley at Andy who was intent on me being a kopite.

End.

bob patterson
41 Posted 23/10/2007 at 18:47:50

Allan Hobbs,Having lived in our GREAT CITYfor sixty five years ,let me tell you ,you don’t say anything good about L.F.C.{even if you think it}otherwise {KOPITE}?

Peter Pridgeon
42 Posted 23/10/2007 at 18:56:06

Why is it if you question Moyes or point out that something else could be tried you are immediately branded a Moyes hater and then a koppite, Alan Hobbs was offering some salient points and all this dribble about not being a true supporter, grow up Andy and SC, this is a debate not a slanging match, if you have not got the intelligence for a debate then back off and watch people who have. There are a lot of good points brought up here that sometimes you miss and need pointing out. I for one while pointing out what the waiter did still like Moyes and believe he is fundamentally on the right track, I would also like to point out that it would do no harm to get in a technical coach from the continent than can offer some variation to his style of play but that does not make me a koppite

Derek Thomas
43 Posted 24/10/2007 at 05:52:00

Hobbsy: sometimes it ain’t what you say but the way you say it.
I happen to think you’re right. I said much the same on post No. 1.
Not only is Moyes tactically inept, he is also plain unlucky.
Well done for sticking to your guns.

Never argue with fools, as the bystanders won’t be able to tell the difference.