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Cowshed in Kirkby

Comments (30)

I have to say, I admire a lot of the articles placed on here. They are well thought out. Eloquently put and my god how long they are! I just wish I had that kind of skill to put articles and even letters together with that kind of detail. No I am just a simple man with simple needs and when I have something to say I just say it.

The way the stadium is going to look? I understand about the Stadium not being a standalone stadium not being very good and I have to say I agree with that. I am not however saying I don?t like the design of the New Stadium, nor am I say I do like it. What I do think is that there are enough people who are of the opinion that it isn?t a good design and it needs to be changed.

Well if so many Evertonian?s feel it needs to be changed, why don?t we make a representation to the club and try and get a design we would all like and be proud of? I am sure we could rally enough support to get quite a good team together to ensure we put enough pressure on the club to make some of the changes.

Now I know there are a lot of hurdles to get over before the stadium becomes a reality but if these are overcome (and the likelihood is that the club and Tesco will), I think we should have some sort of say in what our stadium is going to look like.

Now if you haven?t already picked it up. I voted for the move to Kirkby but just before I voted the Bestway proposal came out of nowhere. Well not exactly nowhere but from the council and others. I think you could forgive me for thinking this was a bit of a desperate measure from a city council who have throughout the years seriously undermined everything that is or even ever was Everton. I think you can also forgive me for not thinking it was a viable alternative when every man and his dog ( including Liverpool FC as it turns out) didn?t think the Loop was anything like big enough to house a 55,000 stadium of course taking into account the logistics of moving that amount of people and accompanying vehicles around the entrance to the tunnel. I am sure someone will come up with the idea of bridges across the roads etc. On that just visit the JJB Stadium at Wigan then try to get over the canal bridge at the back and see how long it takes you. That my friends, is only part of the 25 000 crowd (if full). I have yet to see a proposal detailing any financial structure or even what the stadium design would be. I do hear an awful lot of rhetoric and preaching but all pyrrhic.

I was left with a choice then, how do I vote. Hang on what about Redeveloping Goodison Park. Absolutely without doubt would have been the best option in my eyes. Now what would that require. Let me see.

  • Money and lots of it. Who will pay?
  • Design and build... Can it be done??
  • Council approval... Has it ever been forthcoming in the past???
  • What would that take... the compulsory purchase of a number of houses and maybe some businesses at a cost of??
  • Any sign the council would sanction that?
  • Do we really want to be seen as the club who evicted a 80-year-old woman who had been living there for almost as long as the club has?.
Does anyone see my dilemma here? I know there were other places mentioned such as Speke, Long Lane etc but the situation about the finances still remains. Anyway, I voted for the move to Kirkby. I still stand by that decision and will even if we end up with a shite-looking stadium. What we will have is a collection of Evertonians inside cheering on the team. I defy anyone who believe themselves to be an Evertonian to deny that they would not scream with delight when Everton scored whether they were watching on telly or in a stadium which looked like a cowshed. (By the way, when the Redshite start slagging us off over the name cowshed, remember it was an Evertonian that said it first.)

My point to all of this is that we are Everton and we all have a point of view. The likelihood is we move to Kirkby. Is there going to be any representations made to the club from ToffeeWeb about the stadium design or are we all going to keep going over the same old ground which in actual fact won't change anything?
Mick Mac, St Helens     Posted 19/11/2007 at 18:40:19

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Michael Kenrick
Phew... What was that about just saying it?

I think to be of merit, that sort of initiative needs to come from those who voted Yes, since too many of No-voters who are shocked at what they are seeing and are asking for a better stadium have been condemned as just being a small and unrepresentative group of negative naysayers who have been waiting for the latest International break and their opportunity to pounce.

To be successful, I think you need a snappy acronym: I suggest you call it the Campaign Requesting A Better Stadium. Good luck!

Gavin Ramejkis
1   Posted 19/11/2007 at 21:00:44

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As a firmly published no voter I’m not going to go off on one but use the exact same logic that was posted against the no voters. Why would the current regime give a tinker’s toss what the fans think now they have the vote to continue, all they gave was the vote to continue in discussion with Tesco and KBC. Nothing whatsoever about the look and feel of the stadium, why should they? Do you honestly expect BK or KW to start a new vote on the design and aesthetics? The decisions have already been made and apart from fit-out I doubt little will change, empty corners et al, all at cost which they will have an idea of already but due to fluctuations in global steel prices will rise rather than fall and fit-out costs never reduce unless a seriously cheap and nasty final internals is also on the cards.
John Doolan
2   Posted 17/11/2007 at 16:51:09

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And so the arguments continue to rage about Kirkby, but what really strikes me is the apparent lack of will to those opposed to Kirkby to do anything meaningful to force the club to at least think again. What about a People's Protest?

No disrespect to KEIOC but their efforts so far have been pathetic ? no amount of meetings or ill organised protests outside the ground will have have any effect on the club hierarchy.

The only possible thing that will work now are peaceful but direct protests inside the ground on matchdays. A very public show of force in front of the cameras will deeply embarrass KW and may even prick his conscience.It would also generate some much needed debate and coverage in the wider media.

I am not being naive as in the first instance the club will dismiss any protest as a 'rent a mob' exercise, but if it goes on game after game then have no doubt it will have an impact.

I have in mind 'stand up if you hate Kirkby' or coming back late after half time etc ? it sounds pathetic doesnt it but if there is a genuine groundswell against kirkby then it will very quickly gain momentum. And dont give me that bollocks about getting behind the team ? we can still do that and in any case the ground debate is more important in the long run.

I remember West Ham United ran a very good campaign against a debenture scheme years ago and shamefully the RS are always up for an organised protest. Our record however is embarrassingly poor and we are perhaps the most passive fans in the Premiership.

If people can't be arsed to protest against Kirkby then those who maintain that the majority are in favour will be proved right.

The next home game is the perfect chance to begin the protest and I would suggest that a 'credible' opposition figure gets an interview with the Echo in the next week and sets out a form of protest for Sunderland.

Guess what guys, it's now or never and any protest has to be in the ground ? put up or shut up. What about an alliance of website editors or a major figure from the shareholders association?

Mick Mac
3   Posted 19/11/2007 at 21:08:56

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Interesting acronym Michael I am sure CRABS would really cause an itch amongst the board.
Somehow this really doesnt suprise me Michael. Big on Slagging off -small on action. Perhaps you could start a group Toffewebs Impedes Tesco Support
Tom Morris
4   Posted 19/11/2007 at 21:15:45

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About your ?protest??

If the vote had been a ?no? would you have accepted the decision if the ?yes? voters had protested and overturned the decision not to go.

I really, genuinely, don?t understand what you?re getting at. What?s the point of pretesting about a decision that the majority voted for? Seriously?
Roy Kroft
5   Posted 19/11/2007 at 21:17:19

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Michael Kenrick, you never cease to amaze me.

.. ’I think to be of merit, that sort of initiative needs to come from those who voted Yes, since too many of No-voters who are shocked at what they are seeing and are asking for a better stadium have been condemned as just being a small and unrepresentative group of negative naysayers.... etc’

After what has been the most damaging debate to the family, we have ever seen, you still can’t help yourself from pouring fuel on the fires and suggesting that any response be from the Yes voters, as if it iss there responsiblity only.. Can you not see that it is you and your fellow editors, who are perceived on here as the most devisive elements. Surely you should be congratulating the writer on a well written and thoughtful article and encouraging EVERY Everton, who may be unhappy, with the preliminary images to make their feelings known rather than showing seperatist views.

Unfortunately editorial policy on this site seems to be ’agree with us or else’... it’s not big and it’s not clever.
Steve Mink
6   Posted 19/11/2007 at 21:26:59

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Spot on John Doolan

We were lured like sheep into the ’Yes’ lobby. The Club tactics in the lead up to the vote would put Blair’s ’dodgy dossier’ to shame. Some of us saw this at the time, more of us see it now. An administration which can’t even get tickets to fans on time can’t be trusted on this issue. They are after the easiest solution rather than the best.
John Doolan
7   Posted 19/11/2007 at 21:34:57

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People have the right to protest as much as they want as long as it is peaceful.

As for a majority being in favour - well I dont think anyone believes that including those who voted Yes
Tom Morris
8   Posted 19/11/2007 at 22:08:07

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So the vote, independently managed by the Electoral Reform Society, a professional organisation whose reputation is beyond reproach, was rigged ?

Is that what you’re saying ?

Or are you simply unable (or unwilling) to accept that anyones opinion other than your own can possibly be correct ?

And as for Steve Mink and his ’sheep’. This seems a common theme among ’no’ voters. Anyone that voted yes was some kind of naive, slack-jawed imbecile who had the wool pulled over their eyes by the clubs spin doctors, while the ’no’ brigade are the truly enlightened ones.

And how does a ticket fiasco prove that the administration are not to be trusted ? Surely that’s a contradiction in terms ? Are they bumbling idiots who can;t get anything right or are they sly, conniving, spin merchants ? Surely they can’t be both ?

Just doesn’t add up lads, I’m afraid. If you’re going to invent stories, at least try and make sure they’re consistent.
Rich Jones
9   Posted 19/11/2007 at 22:55:41

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As the club dont seem bothered if we no voters carry on going after the proposed move, I wonder if Tesco would be concerned if the 10000 or so of us who voted no shop at say Asda add in to that all the people who were not allowed or didnt get there vote and would of voted no it adds up to a tidy sum. Come on no voters lets do something. The biggest form of leverage is always financial.
mick mac
10   Posted 19/11/2007 at 23:32:49

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or 40 000 said we need a better designed stadium
Kev Wainwright
11   Posted 19/11/2007 at 23:46:31

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This is just nuts.

John Doolan, what’s with this stand up if hate Kirkby thing. Don’t you remember the protest against Rooney going planned for half time. Nothing happened and because in cyberspace you think that because you go on a site that backs your point of of view and the same 12 people post the same view that everyone is up arms as well. Not true.

As you said it sounds pathetic, that because it is!

You must have missed the plane, the interviews, the girls handing stuff out and of course the planned protest. All those things failed because people want to move on. I want to go to the match and enjoy the game not have to listen to people like you protest.

Rich Jones, your protest about not shopping at Tesco. Well work out how many of the 10,000 do shop at Tesco. Law of averages say it will be around 18%, of those 1800 how many will be in control of the shopping and who’s none match going partner will agree. Lidl must be rubbing their hands in glee at the extra income.

Do you lot know just how ridiculous this talk looks?
Jay Harris
12   Posted 19/11/2007 at 23:57:38

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I totally agree with Gavin and John Doolan.We do feel strongly against the integrity and competence of this board particularly to deliver a stadium that is in EFC?s best interests.
I feel if we went for a giant banner making a bold statement for TV to be interested it should at least create some discomfort in the boardroom.
Anybody interested??
Alan Williams
13   Posted 20/11/2007 at 08:09:23

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Kirkby, Kirkby, Kirkby... Yes, Yes Yes!!! When I voted yes I think I had a picture of the Stadium?? Then why when they show us the retail developments are you all surprised?

Have you never seen an out of town retail centre before, what actually do you expect!! we currently walk through dog shit every home game have crap views and most importantly NO MONEY!!! The loop idea is a complete joke, how can half the staduim be locked in by a main dual carriageway? Do we take our children across 4 lanes of tarffic every home game? What about night games! do we walk through and park cars in the drug-infested prostitute area of Everton Valley!!! Please, Please look at what your offering.

Sadly Kings Dock was the offer we should have taken but that was then. this is now. Kirkby is the best offer we have on the table so its a simple choice. EFC have not left the City, the City has left EFC! Remember that when those idiots who run it knock on your door asking for a vote.

We had a clear vote and the Yes side won, we must all respect that and back the club and its Directors to deliver. Having a different point of view is great but the time to debate was withdrawn when we the fans gave them the mandate to move forward. Live with it and move on. We are doing great at the moment, enjoy it!!

Phil Bellis
14   Posted 20/11/2007 at 11:30:16

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Michael, I know you don’t support people imposing restrictions on other posters so, please, could you go halfway and warn in your initial comment if the letter tells us to ’move forward/live with it/move on’ or even worse, ends with ’End Of’’. I thank you
15   Posted 20/11/2007 at 11:39:29

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Because of all the slating, one simple question, could someone who voted yes to kirkby spell out for me , clearly, why they voted yes, the points needed are funding, travel, commercial aspects, income generated. Because from when the vote was announced and in the lead up, it seems to me that the information put forward by the club has changed considerably, not just cost alone which seems impossible to even estimate from Wyness mumblings this far/

No cause for trouble, I’m genuinely interested
Nick Flack
16   Posted 20/11/2007 at 12:03:00

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It?s a lot better than the spaceship that?s going to land in Stanley Park that?s for sure.

I like it, it looks like a football stadium. I think what MK is trying to say is if the vote is open, you?ll get a lot of spoilers voting against it, but they?d vote against anything anyway, as they quite simply don?t want a stadium in Kirkby.

We?re off to Kirkby, forget it. If you can?t forget it, form a splinter club, Santos Domingo Revolution, and go and play in another league.

Tell me ma me ma
I?ll go get the shopping tonight
Just after we?ve beat the shite
Tell me ma me ma.
Alan Kirwin
17   Posted 20/11/2007 at 11:58:05

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Will this drivel ever stop? To remind the head-in-sand guys (I’m being polite) of where we are:

1. Everton FC is the first club to care so little about fans views on something as significant as a ground move that it......oh yes, it offered them a free vote! How arrogant and tyrannical.

2. Everton FC had the temerity to inform the unavoidable debate by providing architectural images of the proposed stadium (even looking nice, rather than dreary) and include opinions from senior employees of the club, including management & players. The Chief Exec of Everton FC also gave several interviews, written & video, in which he outlined the simple financial parameters governing the club’s desire to seize the Kirkby option. How extraordinary, nee deceitful/arrogant etc etc

3. Everton FC invited in The Electoral Reform Society (a universally respected independent body) to administer the vote. God, doesn’t this arrogance just make your blood boil.

4. There was a clear majority from those who voted endorsing the club’s stated wish to move to Kirkby. A voting majority is the only known basis in the democratic world for confirming a decision. Attempts to re-interpret the vote as somehow not being a "real" majority, or that people were railroaded (as sheep, obviously) into their "yes" decision is dream-like fatuous drivel, and insulting.

5. The guy who suggested that the "no" voters/believers move on to a constructive agenda by trying to influence the stadium look etc has made a welcome and marvellously intelligent suggestion. There is no reason why "yes" voters can’t also join in this constructive agenda as some were clearly torn or borderline and may well have ideas & reservations they wish to air.

6. The idea put forward by Michael Kenrick that the "yes" voters should lead such a campaign is drivel and, sadly, more evidence (as if we needed any) of the bitter, unenlightened, rude and utterly useless debate that has clouded so much of this matter. CRABS is a suitable acronym for MK’s interjection.

7. It is normal for groups, affiliates & families to disagree on matters of high importance. It is pointless, unhelpful and stupid to ignore majority decision-making and offer nothing but negative & insulting dogma. Sure, hold on to your beliefs (one of which is the support of our club, I hope). The decision has been made. Stop wasting your own time and everybody elses. If you can’t find anything useful or constructive to say then don’t bother. Read a book, watch a match, lie down, take a tablet. But pleeeeeease, move on.

Ken Charlesworth
18   Posted 20/11/2007 at 12:38:38

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Michael, please add ?we?re off to Kirkby, forget it? to the warning list. And nick flack, nice song but let?s see you rhyme jersey with ALT? See you in the Checkout End
Mick Mac
19   Posted 20/11/2007 at 12:45:24

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You know a thought just come to me about why the stadium is connected to the Tesco store. Perhaps all the exits will lead out throught he store like the lead out at Camelt to entice people to buy things. Just imagine that. 40, 000 blues supporters going through checkout. How long do you think the stock will last??
Tom Hughes
20   Posted 20/11/2007 at 12:39:00

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The club said it would cost us "practically nothing"...... now it is at least £50m or more likely £80m. Is that not deceit? How convenient for you to miss that particular fact in your list!!! Straight from Mr Wyness’ mouth himself. Have you any idea what that could get us at a redeveloped Goodison? If you don’t, why don’t you, and how can you possibly consider yourself equipped to vote? Could that £50-80m be our contribution to a Loop development? Where are the club’s pics of these for us to compare and make a truly informed decision? The Barr design is a bog standard simple stepped two tier affair with a token corner filling exercise, and limited overhanging tiers offering no spacial efficiency and therefore excessive viewing distance for its capacity. The Loop has been assessed by HOK the world leaders in stadium design with a portfolio that makes Barr’s look like a double-glazing company. No dogma whatsover in there!! By the way have you checked out the latest from the people who assessed the transport issues...... you know, the minor detail of how we all get there, and get away..... pretty damning, as if we didn’t know already!!!
Margeret Thatcher
21   Posted 20/11/2007 at 12:58:46

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Mr Hughes, the suggestion that any person or body would tell distortions of the truth solely to get a vote in their favour is unheard of. How can you believe such a thing? Name just one precedent! Phuuuh!
Kev Wainwright
22   Posted 20/11/2007 at 13:23:28

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I understand the connection between Tesco and Everton and it is clear what Tesco will get out of it.

Bestway, what is in it for them. Why should we hand over to them £50 million?

The city council have said that the tax payer must get full value out of any scheme, and nothing will be given away, so where does that leave the loop.

No-one would choose that location for a major stadium development, or should that be anyone but Southern based cash and carry store with a worthless peice of land that sits in an island of development land. If I was Bestway I too would invest in a cut and paste picture of a stadium on my roundabout, after all they must be sick at missing the boat when it is so near but so far.

Perhaps Tom as you always bring up the Loop you could tell us all about the background of Bestway and why they have suddenly turned into Blues.
Ben Malone
23   Posted 20/11/2007 at 13:21:39

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Are the pictures published in the recent release really so different to the ones released at the time of the vote ? I cant find my voter prospectus but am pretty sure the stadium design hasnt changed - the only thing that has is you can now see the Tesco store and the car park and if anyone thought it would look like anything other than another Tesco superstore and car park they must be extremely deluded. The ground was never going to be built with the same finances that the emirates received (£250m-£300m??), so was always going to end up a more low budget alternative. Evertonians (including myself) still voted yes. I am not entirely happy about the whole thing and will miss Goodison but honestly believe it is the best option for our club. To say we were misled is just wrong - we knew what we were voting for....
p.s. think i just said the same thing as willo but it took too long to type so will post anyway
Tom Hughes
24   Posted 20/11/2007 at 14:11:34

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Kev said,
"No-one would choose that location for a major stadium development,"

You couldn’t be more wrong Kev. Have a look at any book/ website regarding stadium design and planning. The biggest stadium building boom has been taking place in the US over the past decade and a half...... most new stadia are built in downtown areas, since these are the only places you can find mass public transit in abundance and serving all parts of the catchments. They tried the out of town model in the 50’s-70’s, they are fixing it now, sometimes knocking down stadia only 30 years old and better than any club stadia in this country (except perhaps the emirates). Some of these new stadia have completely revitalised rundown areas and failing sports clubs at the same time. Some have been shoehorned into much tighter and busier spots than the Loop. HOK have a portfolio full of them. Over 100,000 commuters/shoppers access the city centre every rush hour, and often similar numbers at night...... there is no other part of the city with this capacity, that’s the way the place has evolved and works..... even Tesco cannot change that logistical constant.

As an aside.....We were even told that Kirkby could be our saving grace with it’s population filling our stadium by some posters. It would appear that the whole of kirkby only provides the club with 3% of its season ticket holders, a few hundred fans and not even enough to fill the front row!!
Steve Lyth
25   Posted 20/11/2007 at 15:07:05

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At the risk of repeating myself, You get Cows, Shit and fat farmers milking Cows, in a Cow Shed.
Its a fair analogy all things considered with the Kirkby proposal.
Kev Wainwright
26   Posted 20/11/2007 at 15:39:48

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I am not sure the centre of Kirby can really be called an out of town development. I think that if you took the populous from around a 5 mile radius it would be very built up. I understand that it is out of our town, but its not like it is in the middle of nowhere.

I think that the reason some, and no way all, stadia is being built in urban areas is that local councils want to use them as anchor tenenats in a regeneration programme. This is exaclty what Knowlsey are doing, so we both agree on one point. You just happen not to think that Kirkby town centre is not a town centre.

As for the transport, well I am sorry but we have lots and lots of retail development outside of city centres and they are all able to have a transport to and from. Most people get to the match by bus, walk, car or train. If you look at the number of parking places around Goodison, the distance of the train station (Kirkdale) and nunber of bus services (which is a true varible) then I cannot see why this cannot happen in Kirkby. Apart from wishful thinking to prove a point either way.

Its no good citing the reebok as I could tell you of the hours I have spent trying to get away from Ewood Park and Hills’boro for example. It just takes time to free up 50,000 people. I can also quote to you the nightmare that you have with twickenham even though that has two railway stations and excellent bus links.

I am still interested in your thoughts re Bestway and way a roundabout over a tunnel can be in any way fit for a 50,000 stadium. Come on Tom you would never ever have suggested that if it wasn’t for the fact that a cash and carry company can see a way of making a very fast quick buck. Now tell us about Bestway..
Dave Wilson
27   Posted 20/11/2007 at 19:09:17

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Mic Mac
Do we really want to evict an 80 year old woman just to stay at goodison ?
Yeah boot her out, but leave the 95 year old, she’ll be dead by the time we need her ouse
28   Posted 20/11/2007 at 19:18:50

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mr wainwright, care to take a look at this info from the kirkby proposal last week?

tell me kirkby is ’viable’, especially for the debt we will have to carry
Brian Waring
29   Posted 20/11/2007 at 20:20:38

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Before the vote,we were continually being told by the yes voters that we were getting a stadium in Kirkby for next to nothing.One thing I have noticed in the last week , is that they don’t use this anymore in their arguement.
Tom Hughes
30   Posted 20/11/2007 at 21:55:47

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I’m stuck in a hotel now, with a dodgy internet connection. Firstly, honest to god mate....Kirkby is out of town. It has roughly the same population as accrington, you go more than a mile from its inappropriately named town centre and you’re in open countryside. There is nothing beyond but rugby towns and lancashire villages then towns with their own footy teams. This is no metropolis, and there isn’t an underground city waiting to fill a stadium. As far as buses and trains are concerned the consultant’s transport report will shock you. Sandhills handles something like 8-10 times more trains than Kirkby which is an end of line station with one way in and one way out, there are no plans to change this. Sandhills can operate a shuttle service since the trains are regular and will require only a handfull of buses to operate. Park and ride schemes are being formulated that cannot be sustained with sufficient buses/drivers..... which is in the order of hundreds, wait till you see it! There are 10 times the number of passenger seats serving Walton than there are at Kirkby, if you don’t believe me ask Merseytravel. If you asked any stadium planner the ideal location for a stadium they would all say city-centre..... read Rod Sheard on this subject in any of his books or Simon Inglis. There are exceptions that work fairly well particularly in Germany were mass transit Loop lines, and public transport in general is comprehensive, but by far the biggest stadium biulding programme is taking place in the US. This was prompted by the success of Camden fields and one or two other downtown stadia that have transformed the fortunes and attendances of the clubs involved.

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