The Mail Bag
Tesco in town
Comments (19)
Just out of interest, what would be the response to having a similar-looking (ie. Tesco branded or Tesco-neighbouring) stadium right in the centre of town? Say, the Kirkby proposal at the Scotland Road site? Hypothetically speaking of course. Just trying to gauge what the more important issue is here. Branding or location?
Chris Odedun, Posted 20/11/2007 at 00:07:31
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Dave Wilson
2 Posted 20/11/2007 at 05:13:28
2 Posted 20/11/2007 at 05:13:28
Chris
Its not quite as simple as that mate, Yes your right, there are people who feel we deserve a much better stadium and there are also people who dont want Kirkby at any price.but if your looking for the reason this debate has exploded once again, look no further than the custodians, with each tiny snippet of imformation they drip feed us - a deliberate ploy - comes this terrible realisation that the Stadium they sold us, cost, design, parking etc is now totally unrecognisable from what they are now saying they can deliver. Read the glossy brochure you were given with your vote card, then compare to what you see or read now, I wish I had the computer skills to illustrate the contrast with this post - maybe some else can - you’d be forgiven for thinking we were talking about two different grounds
Like the yes voters, no voters voted the way they did for different reasons, they didnt all object to the same thing, Kirkby for some - me included - didnt tick any of the boxes at all. One thing did unite the no vote though, it was their reluctance to believe BK’s + KW’s statements that this really was the "deal of the century",
I’ve been searching for common ground to stop this blue against blue nightmare, the insults, the finger pointing , I believe the custodians of our club have inadvertantly presented us with that common ground. Its becoming increasingly clear, that they are loosing the trust of a large section of the yes vote too, they’re beginning to realise they’ve been sold a pup.
Its not quite as simple as that mate, Yes your right, there are people who feel we deserve a much better stadium and there are also people who dont want Kirkby at any price.but if your looking for the reason this debate has exploded once again, look no further than the custodians, with each tiny snippet of imformation they drip feed us - a deliberate ploy - comes this terrible realisation that the Stadium they sold us, cost, design, parking etc is now totally unrecognisable from what they are now saying they can deliver. Read the glossy brochure you were given with your vote card, then compare to what you see or read now, I wish I had the computer skills to illustrate the contrast with this post - maybe some else can - you’d be forgiven for thinking we were talking about two different grounds
Like the yes voters, no voters voted the way they did for different reasons, they didnt all object to the same thing, Kirkby for some - me included - didnt tick any of the boxes at all. One thing did unite the no vote though, it was their reluctance to believe BK’s + KW’s statements that this really was the "deal of the century",
I’ve been searching for common ground to stop this blue against blue nightmare, the insults, the finger pointing , I believe the custodians of our club have inadvertantly presented us with that common ground. Its becoming increasingly clear, that they are loosing the trust of a large section of the yes vote too, they’re beginning to realise they’ve been sold a pup.
Gavin Ramejkis
3 Posted 20/11/2007 at 06:49:12
3 Posted 20/11/2007 at 06:49:12
I asked the same question when Project Jennifer was first announced as Tesco are supposed to building a superstore as part of it. Why if so helpful not build or assist with the stadium there. No answers beyond the obvious requirement of Everton’s new stadium being part of the Kirkby development to gain them planning permission for such a huge superstore as a percentage of the land has to be leisure. The whole Project Jennifer area has a number of plots if the majority was flattened to house a stadium but its obviously not in the business interest of Tesco. Location is vital to many Everton supporters and the business the vital component to Tesco.
Tom Hughes
4 Posted 20/11/2007 at 10:28:04
4 Posted 20/11/2007 at 10:28:04
Chris,
As Dave Wilson clearly states the plain deceptions that accompanied this project and its ballot have sullied many people’s opinion.... The main issue for me is location. It’s the starting point for any building project, but it is an absolutely critical one with respect to a mass attendance venue of any kind. Mass attendance needs mass transit, and it cannot happen at Kirkby. Location is also important in other respects the tribal/territorial nature of our support, the fact that we are not in a one club city, all mean that it is a serious consideration. As Gavin says though, Everton’s needs have essentially been subordinate in this whole project. It’s not our location box that is being ticked here but Tesco’s first and foremost. The carrot being the financial incentive of a stadium for "practically nothing" as opposed to any alternative costing us dearly. The accuracy of this promise is now being revealed. We have been seriously misled. This may have been forgiveable to some if the stadium on offer was San Siroesque in some way, however it in the cold light of day it’s more like the "new den" with knobs on!
As Dave Wilson clearly states the plain deceptions that accompanied this project and its ballot have sullied many people’s opinion.... The main issue for me is location. It’s the starting point for any building project, but it is an absolutely critical one with respect to a mass attendance venue of any kind. Mass attendance needs mass transit, and it cannot happen at Kirkby. Location is also important in other respects the tribal/territorial nature of our support, the fact that we are not in a one club city, all mean that it is a serious consideration. As Gavin says though, Everton’s needs have essentially been subordinate in this whole project. It’s not our location box that is being ticked here but Tesco’s first and foremost. The carrot being the financial incentive of a stadium for "practically nothing" as opposed to any alternative costing us dearly. The accuracy of this promise is now being revealed. We have been seriously misled. This may have been forgiveable to some if the stadium on offer was San Siroesque in some way, however it in the cold light of day it’s more like the "new den" with knobs on!
Patty Beesley
5 Posted 20/11/2007 at 10:59:14
5 Posted 20/11/2007 at 10:59:14
Any chance of getting Tesco Club Card points every time we buy a ticket for a game!! Just thought I?d ask!! After all, every little helps.
Sam Morrison
6 Posted 20/11/2007 at 10:56:45
6 Posted 20/11/2007 at 10:56:45
What is getting lost in the stadium debate is whether we really want to be associating with Tesco in the first place. They’re not a company with a sparkling reputation as a quick skim through the book ’Tescopoly’ will confirm - or the website http://www.tescopoly.org/
Someone, I think Nick Entwhistle, wrote a piece on this aspect of the Kirkby ’move’ some time back but it is, somewhat understandably I suppose, rarely mentioned since. Personally this is as important to me as where the stadium is. I’m glad we don’t have a far-flung benefactor with a dubious political history, but neither do I want the club forever associated with a company that runs roughshod over its own suppliers and plays a major part in turning British towns into shopless suburbs where everyone drives to a ’retail park’.
Someone, I think Nick Entwhistle, wrote a piece on this aspect of the Kirkby ’move’ some time back but it is, somewhat understandably I suppose, rarely mentioned since. Personally this is as important to me as where the stadium is. I’m glad we don’t have a far-flung benefactor with a dubious political history, but neither do I want the club forever associated with a company that runs roughshod over its own suppliers and plays a major part in turning British towns into shopless suburbs where everyone drives to a ’retail park’.
James Elworthy
7 Posted 20/11/2007 at 12:00:42
7 Posted 20/11/2007 at 12:00:42
Tesco’s main interest is Tesco, I dont think the loopway is an ideal place for a profitable supermarket.
Ed Fitzgerald
8 Posted 20/11/2007 at 11:58:21
8 Posted 20/11/2007 at 11:58:21
Sam
I have read the book you refer to and if you dont trust Wyness and Kenwright then Terry Leahy is definitiely not to be trusted. Those Evertonians who say this nothing to do with football should think again. TESCO are not exactly ethical in the way they do business. I have posted articles referring to this, I would encouage Evertonians to read this book as it will make you think again. On a positive note the book highlights how people can and have resiisted their community being dominated by TESCO.
I have read the book you refer to and if you dont trust Wyness and Kenwright then Terry Leahy is definitiely not to be trusted. Those Evertonians who say this nothing to do with football should think again. TESCO are not exactly ethical in the way they do business. I have posted articles referring to this, I would encouage Evertonians to read this book as it will make you think again. On a positive note the book highlights how people can and have resiisted their community being dominated by TESCO.
Andy Mckenzie
9 Posted 20/11/2007 at 11:55:01
9 Posted 20/11/2007 at 11:55:01
The loop site is potentally a world class stadium in a world class location, it will be served by lime street station and has numerous buses passing by the hour, it will be opposite the university that bears our greatest ever chairmans name john moores, its a stones throw from where the people who founded the club were born, its in the heart of a city thats about to become capital of culture and have the eyes of europe thrust upon it, its surrounded by hundreds of pubs and restaurants, it will be designed by HOK, the leaders in their field who specialize in fitting big stadia in small areas ie; the emirates.
The fact that our chairman cannot see this potential proves that his time is up, he’s already failed to deliver a world class stadium at kings dock and he is potentially gonna cost us another world class stadium is a complete travesty, when the vote was decided it was TO CONTINUE NEGOTIATIONS WITH KMBC, further negotiations continued an we were presented with quite shambolic pictures of how the stadium will look, them pictures are not only shambolic but a insult to the name everton football club.
The fact that our chairman cannot see this potential proves that his time is up, he’s already failed to deliver a world class stadium at kings dock and he is potentially gonna cost us another world class stadium is a complete travesty, when the vote was decided it was TO CONTINUE NEGOTIATIONS WITH KMBC, further negotiations continued an we were presented with quite shambolic pictures of how the stadium will look, them pictures are not only shambolic but a insult to the name everton football club.
Dave Sheedy
10 Posted 20/11/2007 at 12:09:18
10 Posted 20/11/2007 at 12:09:18
Andy,
one major factor you have overlooked COST.
For all you no voters out there this seems to go out the window. To me the vote was a simple one, stay at Goodison and fall further behind the big four or move to Kirkby and give ourselves a good chance to increase our revenue streams. As there was no viable alternative on the agenda the yes vote got the mandate.
The only critiscm I have is that there was no alternative but I believe the blame for that can be put firmly in L.C.C laps.But please stop bleating on about this site and that site as theres no chance of the finance being there to fund these pipe dreams!!!!
one major factor you have overlooked COST.
For all you no voters out there this seems to go out the window. To me the vote was a simple one, stay at Goodison and fall further behind the big four or move to Kirkby and give ourselves a good chance to increase our revenue streams. As there was no viable alternative on the agenda the yes vote got the mandate.
The only critiscm I have is that there was no alternative but I believe the blame for that can be put firmly in L.C.C laps.But please stop bleating on about this site and that site as theres no chance of the finance being there to fund these pipe dreams!!!!
Andy Mckenzie
11 Posted 20/11/2007 at 12:23:09
11 Posted 20/11/2007 at 12:23:09
Dave
there is absolutely no reason whatsoever why this can’t be financed, your trying to tell me that a unique stadium in the center of the city would not get funding, people will be falling over themselves to invest into it, the rumours are £60m would be enough to secure the loop, near enough to the £50-£80m mark for kirkby,
Which would you prefer the loop or kirkby?
there is absolutely no reason whatsoever why this can’t be financed, your trying to tell me that a unique stadium in the center of the city would not get funding, people will be falling over themselves to invest into it, the rumours are £60m would be enough to secure the loop, near enough to the £50-£80m mark for kirkby,
Which would you prefer the loop or kirkby?
Ozzie Postlethwaite
12 Posted 20/11/2007 at 12:38:09
12 Posted 20/11/2007 at 12:38:09
I heard so much about this HOK report proving a stadium can fit in the loop, but how come I can?t read it. It seems to pass around some elite groups who tell us it can work but won?t share the info.
The more this is kept private the support for the loop disappears and we are left with Kirkby.
Its about time that this is in the public domain so Bill and Keith have to answer some tough questions....
The more this is kept private the support for the loop disappears and we are left with Kirkby.
Its about time that this is in the public domain so Bill and Keith have to answer some tough questions....
Dave Sheedy
13 Posted 20/11/2007 at 12:49:56
13 Posted 20/11/2007 at 12:49:56
Andy,
I would definately prefer the loop, and if the ballot had read would you prefer the loop option or the Kirkby option if finance was available for both projects I would vote for the loop all day.
Unfortunately this was never and has never been presented as a viable option.
Your post has at least not resorted to some of the scare mongering of the no vote brigade but as I’ve constantly posted you can only go on the facts provided and make a valued judgement on them which I believe myself and the majority have.
In my opinion a no vote was a receipe for financial disaster for Everton but as I’ve always posted I’m open to other viable alternatives should they arise.
On another matter I can’t understand posters who say they will never set foot in a Kirkby stadium to me it’s the team that matter and were they play is almost an irrelevance it doesn’t stop fans going to Luton or grounds like that does it?
I would definately prefer the loop, and if the ballot had read would you prefer the loop option or the Kirkby option if finance was available for both projects I would vote for the loop all day.
Unfortunately this was never and has never been presented as a viable option.
Your post has at least not resorted to some of the scare mongering of the no vote brigade but as I’ve constantly posted you can only go on the facts provided and make a valued judgement on them which I believe myself and the majority have.
In my opinion a no vote was a receipe for financial disaster for Everton but as I’ve always posted I’m open to other viable alternatives should they arise.
On another matter I can’t understand posters who say they will never set foot in a Kirkby stadium to me it’s the team that matter and were they play is almost an irrelevance it doesn’t stop fans going to Luton or grounds like that does it?
Andy Mckenzie
14 Posted 20/11/2007 at 13:02:29
14 Posted 20/11/2007 at 13:02:29
Dave i would never or never have slated people who voted for the move and i respect you for voting yes, the way i see it is that our board painted a picture of kirkby or bust, imo opinion this was one of the main reasons why people voted yes, the more we hear about this kirkby stadium the worse it appears to be, wyness told people at the start of this stadium debate that the limit of our fanbase is 50000 and anything over would be too ambitious, he held talks with the mayor of liverpool claiming to want a 75000 seater stadium on the sole intention of dismissing the loop, the loop site won’t fit a 75000 seater stadium but it will fit a 55000+ stadium and the HOK report confirms this, this proposal should be investigated immediately imo because i truly believe that it will be a stadium that every single evertonian would be proud of, could you honestly say that the kirkby stadium is a stadium to be proud of?
Dave Sheedy
15 Posted 20/11/2007 at 13:26:38
15 Posted 20/11/2007 at 13:26:38
Andy, it’s refreshing to enter into debate with a no voter and it not resorting to name calling and slagging off felow Evertonians!!!
I also respect any one who voted no but I don’t belive our board painted a Kirkby or bust scenario I think they just pointed out that if we don’t move soon we will be left behind financially. It is on this basis and this basis alone that i voted yes.
Do I trust Wyness probably not but I give Kenwright credit for not wanting to sell us short.
On your point of wanting a stadium to be proud of this weighs heavy on my heart as although I have many many fantastic memories of Goodison am I proud of her most definately not. It is heartbreaking to take your 12 year old son to Pride park or the Reebok and have them ask why we can’t have a stadium this good. Now before I get slated I’m not advocating a Pride park or a Reebok but I remain convinced Kenwright can deliver us a stadium that we will be proud of and future generations will be proud of.
How good was Nurenbergs stadium by the way?
I also respect any one who voted no but I don’t belive our board painted a Kirkby or bust scenario I think they just pointed out that if we don’t move soon we will be left behind financially. It is on this basis and this basis alone that i voted yes.
Do I trust Wyness probably not but I give Kenwright credit for not wanting to sell us short.
On your point of wanting a stadium to be proud of this weighs heavy on my heart as although I have many many fantastic memories of Goodison am I proud of her most definately not. It is heartbreaking to take your 12 year old son to Pride park or the Reebok and have them ask why we can’t have a stadium this good. Now before I get slated I’m not advocating a Pride park or a Reebok but I remain convinced Kenwright can deliver us a stadium that we will be proud of and future generations will be proud of.
How good was Nurenbergs stadium by the way?
Andy Mckenzie
16 Posted 20/11/2007 at 13:39:35
16 Posted 20/11/2007 at 13:39:35
Fair point dave, i guess we’ll agree to disagree.
As for nuremberg i did’nt make it due to financial reasons and im pretty gutted i did’nt make it over because it sounded and looked like people had one of the best times of their lives,a couple of mates went over and said it was amazing, those type of memories live with you forever, im definitely going to try and get to one of the knockout games when we get their, i’ve never seen us play away in europe and its definitely on my to do list.
As for nuremberg i did’nt make it due to financial reasons and im pretty gutted i did’nt make it over because it sounded and looked like people had one of the best times of their lives,a couple of mates went over and said it was amazing, those type of memories live with you forever, im definitely going to try and get to one of the knockout games when we get their, i’ve never seen us play away in europe and its definitely on my to do list.
Dave Sheedy
17 Posted 20/11/2007 at 13:46:22
17 Posted 20/11/2007 at 13:46:22
Yes Andy we will agree to disagree without the constant name calling and drivel that is posted by both camps lately.
I think we both agree that regardless were we end up be it Kirkby, Goodison or some yet unmentioned area the only thing that really matters is Everton.
You should defo get to a European game it reinforces your belief in all that is blue and debates about stadiums go out the window. COYB
I think we both agree that regardless were we end up be it Kirkby, Goodison or some yet unmentioned area the only thing that really matters is Everton.
You should defo get to a European game it reinforces your belief in all that is blue and debates about stadiums go out the window. COYB
Ed MacDonald
18 Posted 20/11/2007 at 13:48:38
18 Posted 20/11/2007 at 13:48:38
We could probably handle a rubbish design OR rubbish location but not both!
Jay Campbell
19 Posted 20/11/2007 at 16:31:15
19 Posted 20/11/2007 at 16:31:15
If the location was in the city we wouldn’t even be having this debate.
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1 Posted 20/11/2007 at 02:20:17
However, the design of the stadium too needs to change; the stadium can by all means be in conjunction with Tesco, but not in the way currently proposed. Everton’s new stadium needs to be iconic and representative of the ambitions of the club, with a striking design and not RIGHT next to Tesco Extra. The Loop site has some preliminary designs drawn up and these look far better than the planned construction in Kirkby - incorporating a hotel, in the heart of the city, everything we should be aiming for.
All ridiculously hypothetical anyway, Chris - I see what you are trying to get across, is it the location we No voters are against or the design? Its both. The move to Kirkby just feels wrong - wrong design, wrong place, wrong time.