The Mail Bag
Lowering the parameters
Comments (31)
I see the `excuses` have started already. `It will be as hard to get into the top ten this season as it has the top four previously`, says David Moyes. `Other clubs have been able to throw money at the task whilst we have to go about it a little differently.` The Echo`s tame journalists are already banging home the message of `European distraction` and `fighting on four fronts` but should we buy into this negative propaganda aimed at lowering our expectations before the half-way stage is reached?
Am I alone in expecting Everton to maintain a`European spot`in the Prem whatever else they may or may not achieve this season? In my book only by doing this can we be certain that progress is being maintained and that Moyes is really capable of taking us on to glory.
Harry Meek, Posted 03/12/2007 at 10:20:44
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Allan Hobbs
2 Posted 03/12/2007 at 16:03:49
2 Posted 03/12/2007 at 16:03:49
To say they’re excuses is absolutely wrong as far as I can see; I tend to agree totally with DM on this, and so does everyone I’ve spoken to about it. I had exactly this conversation with an Arsenal fan this morning, who in fact, brought it up before I did and had not even seen DM’s comments.
The PL is definately much stronger this season, the table alone will tell you that much Harry.
The PL is definately much stronger this season, the table alone will tell you that much Harry.
Brian Noble
3 Posted 03/12/2007 at 15:58:56
3 Posted 03/12/2007 at 15:58:56
I know where Harry’s coming from and I agree with him. Top teams don’t see the FA or Carling Cups as any big deal in themselves and the money earned is peanuts compared with League placement swag.Yes,I’d love some silverware but PROGRESS can only be judged on maintaining and improving on last season’s excellent achievement.And there’s definitely no cigar for losing semi-finalists or even finalists for that matter!
Marcus Dawson
4 Posted 03/12/2007 at 16:07:17
4 Posted 03/12/2007 at 16:07:17
Harry, I think you?ve got your parameters mixed up with your expectations, you should see a doctor mate, I think you?ve got a bad case of the malaprops. In answer to your point, if you look at how much money teams like West Ham and Man City have been blowing it?s bound to raise the bar, but I?d be interested to know how Moyes would interpret the form of teams like Spurs and Newcastle.
Dave Trudgeon
5 Posted 03/12/2007 at 16:12:29
5 Posted 03/12/2007 at 16:12:29
Brian if the fa cup or league cup were not big deals why do top 4 clubs win them year after year?
Tony Senter
6 Posted 03/12/2007 at 16:08:59
6 Posted 03/12/2007 at 16:08:59
Well Alan,Arsenal fans would say that,wouldn’t they?They are actually TOP of the Prem and are talking up that achievement! I’m very much in Harry’s camp on this one-of course the standard has gone up but we’re in a competitive business and our’s must move up with it. I don’t expect Everton to break into the top four but for god’s sake we can’t allow the likes of Villa,Pompey and Blackburn to be looking down on us come May.
We ARE a big club and in the context of today’s game that means being ’best of the rest’ in the League.No excuses.
We ARE a big club and in the context of today’s game that means being ’best of the rest’ in the League.No excuses.
Allan Hobbs
7 Posted 03/12/2007 at 16:18:28
7 Posted 03/12/2007 at 16:18:28
Jeez, why does everyone always get so fraught about other teams being above us? We’re only a point or 3 behind them, chill out ffs!!
You’re all so bloody pessimistic! Why shouldn’t Villa or Blaclburn be above us? They have very competitive teams and very good managers who’ve spent money.
Its December and we’re about 4 points behind 4th place, albeit in 9th position - the point is that its very tight in the top 10 this year and thats a fact. Forget that Arsenal are way ahead, we cant expect to be pushing them for the title.
You’re all so bloody pessimistic! Why shouldn’t Villa or Blaclburn be above us? They have very competitive teams and very good managers who’ve spent money.
Its December and we’re about 4 points behind 4th place, albeit in 9th position - the point is that its very tight in the top 10 this year and thats a fact. Forget that Arsenal are way ahead, we cant expect to be pushing them for the title.
Allan Hobbs
8 Posted 03/12/2007 at 16:24:10
8 Posted 03/12/2007 at 16:24:10
OK 6 points but it still aint the end of the world.
: ))
: ))
Erik Dols
9 Posted 03/12/2007 at 16:06:07
9 Posted 03/12/2007 at 16:06:07
I agree with Dave basically.
If we do well in the cups AND we finish in the top ten, I’ll feel really good about the season. Although I guess we could aim for 8th place or so anyway.
If we end in the upper six and manage to go to the last 8 of all cup competitions but crash out at that stage I’ll also feel really good about the season. So far I really didn’t see any cup-backlash in the league, but December has only just started?
The next step for Everton to take after last season was IMHO:
- Playing in Europe year in year out and not every two or three seasons
- showing more attractive football
- have a really good cup run from time to time
So far this season is living up to these standards, but it’s still a long way to go. As we are through in Europe anyway, I don’t see Thursday’s match as a ’must-win’ encounter and could understand Moyes if he played his second string of players. The two matches after that one are more important to me: At home to Fulham is a must-win encounter to keep in touch with our competitors, certainly with the tough games coming up in the league. And winning in the league cup means we’re playing in the semis of a cup for the first time this millenium. It’s only the league cup, but the sooner Moyes starts building serious cup runs, the sooner I’m convinced we’re really on the roll.
If we do well in the cups AND we finish in the top ten, I’ll feel really good about the season. Although I guess we could aim for 8th place or so anyway.
If we end in the upper six and manage to go to the last 8 of all cup competitions but crash out at that stage I’ll also feel really good about the season. So far I really didn’t see any cup-backlash in the league, but December has only just started?
The next step for Everton to take after last season was IMHO:
- Playing in Europe year in year out and not every two or three seasons
- showing more attractive football
- have a really good cup run from time to time
So far this season is living up to these standards, but it’s still a long way to go. As we are through in Europe anyway, I don’t see Thursday’s match as a ’must-win’ encounter and could understand Moyes if he played his second string of players. The two matches after that one are more important to me: At home to Fulham is a must-win encounter to keep in touch with our competitors, certainly with the tough games coming up in the league. And winning in the league cup means we’re playing in the semis of a cup for the first time this millenium. It’s only the league cup, but the sooner Moyes starts building serious cup runs, the sooner I’m convinced we’re really on the roll.
Allan Hobbs
10 Posted 03/12/2007 at 16:27:21
10 Posted 03/12/2007 at 16:27:21
I think we’ve shown considerable progress already this season; the tight league is important to remember too - 4 points behind City is nothing.
Erik - the Zenit game is Wednesday.
Erik - the Zenit game is Wednesday.
Harry Meek
11 Posted 03/12/2007 at 16:18:24
11 Posted 03/12/2007 at 16:18:24
No English expert me,Marcus, but my Oxford dictionary defines parameters as’quantity or quality that restricts what it characterises’.Don’t you agree that Moyes is covering his tracks by asking us to restrict our hopes for the quantity of points and the quality we may need to collect them?
Allan Hobbs
12 Posted 03/12/2007 at 16:35:58
12 Posted 03/12/2007 at 16:35:58
Don’t you just love google! ; )
Erik Dols
13 Posted 03/12/2007 at 16:33:31
13 Posted 03/12/2007 at 16:33:31
Thanks Allan.
Stupid Uefa with their inconsistent matchdays... Although wednesday means one more day to rest before the next game.
Stupid Uefa with their inconsistent matchdays... Although wednesday means one more day to rest before the next game.
Bill Dunning
14 Posted 03/12/2007 at 16:35:42
14 Posted 03/12/2007 at 16:35:42
Have to say that my major worry about how this season is going is that we seem incapable of beating teams in the top half of the table.That seems to indicate to me-and Mr Moyes it seems -that we can look forward to ’progessing’to 10th spot.
Didn’t we all used to slam Doddy’s mantra’Tenth is Good’?Now it seems acceptable as a sound achievement.The propoganda is working!
Didn’t we all used to slam Doddy’s mantra’Tenth is Good’?Now it seems acceptable as a sound achievement.The propoganda is working!
Marcus Dawson
15 Posted 03/12/2007 at 16:59:34
15 Posted 03/12/2007 at 16:59:34
Harry, wouldn?t argue with your definition, just the context, I?m not sure how you lower a parameter, bars and expectations I?ve no problem with. In any case I?m not sure that Moyes isn?t making a more general comment about the prem as opposed to covering his backside. I think the league is more competitive outside the top 4, it?s bound to be as so much new money has started to flood in (sadly not much coming our way). A few teams have shown improvement, including us, it?s just that from our league position you wouldn?t think so, maybe in real terms we are slipping. Personally think that we had a couple of poor performances earlier in the season and were robbed against the RS, it might be fairer to pass comment after the African Nations cup.
David Barks
16 Posted 03/12/2007 at 17:08:01
16 Posted 03/12/2007 at 17:08:01
Moyes is just stating the truth, that the league is more competitive than it has been in many, many years. Villa, Blackburn, City, Portsmouth are all very good this season and we are right there with them. City got off to a very good start and are starting to come back down to earth as the draw with Wigan and 6-0 bashing by Chelsea would prove. They are squeaking out 1 goal wins when they win now. Aston Villa are very good this year and have been playing excellent of late. Blackburn are also a very good side but more on the inconsistent side of things. I think the African Cup will do in Portsmouth leaving Villa, Blackburn, and Everton as the top 7 sides with City falling off a bit. Moyes never said Everton will fail, he simply said all teams will struggle to get into the top 10 this season as the competition is very close. Yes, we are 9th currently but are only 6 points out of 3rd!!!
Howard Nesbitt
17 Posted 03/12/2007 at 17:28:54
17 Posted 03/12/2007 at 17:28:54
As a clever-ass English teacher,I would define the parameters within which this season can be regarded a success as anywhere between a !st and 6th place finish. Yes,the Prem has got tougher but can we really expect other clubs to sit on their hands whilst we go all out to improve our squad.
I think the barrier has been raised every season since the Prem came into being-that’s what made our fourth place such a fabulous achievement -or a lucky flook!
I think the barrier has been raised every season since the Prem came into being-that’s what made our fourth place such a fabulous achievement -or a lucky flook!
David Barks
18 Posted 03/12/2007 at 17:43:32
18 Posted 03/12/2007 at 17:43:32
And lets remember that we have held tight with the others while missing Cahill, Vaughan and AJ for much of the early part of the season. Also, factor in the Derby where we should not have lost all 3 points and they should not have gained all 3 and where would that leave us? If we would have drawn that game just by getting that blatant penalty on Lescott, not taking into account any of the other horrible call, sending offs and non-sending offs (Kuyt) we would be just 3 points behind Liverpool with us having 25 points and them having 28 points. That is not meant to be an excuse for wherever we end up at the end of the season because all teams are faced with decisions that didn’t go their way. But it is interesting. It looks as thought he Premier League is going toward a "Big 10" in the near future with the investment coming into other clubs. Now we need ours badly.
Ken Barker
19 Posted 03/12/2007 at 18:10:07
19 Posted 03/12/2007 at 18:10:07
I can’t believe that so many of us are buying into this ’Tenth is Good’bollocks.The TIGS really should read carefully what they are saying! Just because he’s managed an eight match unbeaten run doesn’t mean that everything Moyes says is gospel.Of course he’s covering his arse but that’s nothing new-he says the same thing at this time every year.
Can you just imagine what fans of the other lot would be saying if the Spaniard came out with that one?And if you say ’Oh but it’s different for them’,you really are admitting the fat twat was right all along-we are a small club!
OK,so we’re sort of in Europe this year but please don’t buy into this ’fighting on four fronts’ crap.What really matters as a sign of true progress is our league position.Of course we shall do well to retain our sixth position but retain it we must.
Don’t let’s lower our aspirations because of continued involvement in other competitions or because Mr Moyes says it’s getting harder to compete.It is for the others as well!
Now how does that motto go- NIL SATIS...........
Can you just imagine what fans of the other lot would be saying if the Spaniard came out with that one?And if you say ’Oh but it’s different for them’,you really are admitting the fat twat was right all along-we are a small club!
OK,so we’re sort of in Europe this year but please don’t buy into this ’fighting on four fronts’ crap.What really matters as a sign of true progress is our league position.Of course we shall do well to retain our sixth position but retain it we must.
Don’t let’s lower our aspirations because of continued involvement in other competitions or because Mr Moyes says it’s getting harder to compete.It is for the others as well!
Now how does that motto go- NIL SATIS...........
David Barks
20 Posted 03/12/2007 at 18:55:00
20 Posted 03/12/2007 at 18:55:00
Ken
Go and read what Moyes said before you write an opinion on it. Here, I’ll post the quotes for you: ?I?ve been saying for a few weeks, I think it will be as hard to get into the top 10 of the Premier League this year as maybe it has been to get into the top four in the past,? ?Blackburn, Villa, West Ham, Portsmouth, Everton, Manchester City are all doing well so it will be really tough." Nowhere does Moyes say a 10th place finish will be good for Everton. He is simply saying that all those clubs are very good and will be fighting it out with each other and us to get those other European spots, and if you would look at the table that is exactly what is happening. There is a total of 6 points separating 3rd from 9th.
And one more thing, living in reality and seeing that Liverpool are in a completely different financial situation as us is not saying we’re a small club. It is just a fact that they can spend 50 Million in one summer and we can’t, which means they get the better players for the most part, which means it is harder for us to finish above them. And the last time I checked we are ’fighting on four fronts’, so why shouldn’t we buy into it. The fact is that we are in the quarters of the Carling Cup, are top of our UEFA Cup group, and have the league and FA Cup to deal with. That is a lot of midweek games that the likes of Villa, City, and Portsmouth don’t have to contend with, so their players are more rested and have less chance of getting injured. So learn how to read and analyze what the man says before you assume he is saying it will be good for Everton to finish 10th. As you say in your second to last sentence, Moyes said it will be harder for all teams to finish in the top 10, not just Everton. It’s reality mate, the league is extremely competitive this year, and the last time I checked we play in that league.
Go and read what Moyes said before you write an opinion on it. Here, I’ll post the quotes for you: ?I?ve been saying for a few weeks, I think it will be as hard to get into the top 10 of the Premier League this year as maybe it has been to get into the top four in the past,? ?Blackburn, Villa, West Ham, Portsmouth, Everton, Manchester City are all doing well so it will be really tough." Nowhere does Moyes say a 10th place finish will be good for Everton. He is simply saying that all those clubs are very good and will be fighting it out with each other and us to get those other European spots, and if you would look at the table that is exactly what is happening. There is a total of 6 points separating 3rd from 9th.
And one more thing, living in reality and seeing that Liverpool are in a completely different financial situation as us is not saying we’re a small club. It is just a fact that they can spend 50 Million in one summer and we can’t, which means they get the better players for the most part, which means it is harder for us to finish above them. And the last time I checked we are ’fighting on four fronts’, so why shouldn’t we buy into it. The fact is that we are in the quarters of the Carling Cup, are top of our UEFA Cup group, and have the league and FA Cup to deal with. That is a lot of midweek games that the likes of Villa, City, and Portsmouth don’t have to contend with, so their players are more rested and have less chance of getting injured. So learn how to read and analyze what the man says before you assume he is saying it will be good for Everton to finish 10th. As you say in your second to last sentence, Moyes said it will be harder for all teams to finish in the top 10, not just Everton. It’s reality mate, the league is extremely competitive this year, and the last time I checked we play in that league.
Karl Masters
21 Posted 03/12/2007 at 19:03:04
21 Posted 03/12/2007 at 19:03:04
Has anyone already noticed how the League has split in 2 already?
You have the TOP 9 with us 9 th on 24 points, then a 5 point drop to West Ham and Newcastle marooned in their own little league of mid-table medicrity and another 5 point drop to the bottom 9.
That?s a massive 10 points between 9th and 12th, unheard of so early in the season. Top 9 all big spenders bar Blackburn and us to a point. Bottom 9 low spenders aprt from Spurs and Sunderland.
Do you see a pattern emerging?
Moyesie is spot on.
You have the TOP 9 with us 9 th on 24 points, then a 5 point drop to West Ham and Newcastle marooned in their own little league of mid-table medicrity and another 5 point drop to the bottom 9.
That?s a massive 10 points between 9th and 12th, unheard of so early in the season. Top 9 all big spenders bar Blackburn and us to a point. Bottom 9 low spenders aprt from Spurs and Sunderland.
Do you see a pattern emerging?
Moyesie is spot on.
Mark Perry
22 Posted 03/12/2007 at 19:44:39
22 Posted 03/12/2007 at 19:44:39
Dont forget theat the teams above us are all playing each other or the top 4 for the next 3 weeks (give or take).
We are doing well, we just need to keep playing as we have been and the results will follow.
If we get a new centre midfield for x mas then we will be in prime position for the final run in.
We are doing well, we just need to keep playing as we have been and the results will follow.
If we get a new centre midfield for x mas then we will be in prime position for the final run in.
Mark Pendleton
23 Posted 03/12/2007 at 19:50:17
23 Posted 03/12/2007 at 19:50:17
I?m with Allan on this one. I don?t think Moyes is making excuses, i think he?s doing what he always seems to do - say it as it is and be honest.
The detractors complain of no cup runs when we finish top 6 or 7. Then if we concentrate on a cup run and look to finish top 10 they complain we?re taking our eye off the league.
The detractors complain of no cup runs when we finish top 6 or 7. Then if we concentrate on a cup run and look to finish top 10 they complain we?re taking our eye off the league.
Mike Oates
24 Posted 03/12/2007 at 20:10:44
24 Posted 03/12/2007 at 20:10:44
Moyes is absolutely right that the Premiership is getting tougher BUT our target has to be that 5th position . We can win Cups and qualify for Europe via these routes, but I believe the sign of a good team is one which attains a regular position in the top 6 and more specifically the top 5.
We need to show a consistency over 38 games a year where we get to a point when we play teams who are in the 10 - 20th positions we know we are going to win home and away. When we play teams 6th - 10th we grab the odd away win and win at home on a regular basis, and when we play teams in top 6 we win at home and grab the odd away point.
We need the phrase " Top 4" to become the "Top 5" with us being the 5th . Then we can really start to push into the "Top 4" .
Winning the odd cup (which can be a lottery) wont get us the players/money to get into the Top 4 - remember Middlesborough with Carling Cup - where are they now ?
We need to show a consistency over 38 games a year where we get to a point when we play teams who are in the 10 - 20th positions we know we are going to win home and away. When we play teams 6th - 10th we grab the odd away win and win at home on a regular basis, and when we play teams in top 6 we win at home and grab the odd away point.
We need the phrase " Top 4" to become the "Top 5" with us being the 5th . Then we can really start to push into the "Top 4" .
Winning the odd cup (which can be a lottery) wont get us the players/money to get into the Top 4 - remember Middlesborough with Carling Cup - where are they now ?
Dave Griffin
25 Posted 03/12/2007 at 21:34:52
25 Posted 03/12/2007 at 21:34:52
What the blues have to do is the oldest cliche in the book. TAKE ONE GAME AT A TIME! A win against Zenit will do for starters.
Allan Hobbs
26 Posted 03/12/2007 at 22:19:17
26 Posted 03/12/2007 at 22:19:17
Mike - I believe the first thing Alex Ferguson won was the league cup, and look at them now! Don’t knock silverware; it raises your profile and gives you a European spot whether it be the League cup, FA cup or UEFA.
We could do with winning something, and I’ll wager you’ll be there in Cardiff/Wembley come cup final day whichever cup that might be.
We could do with winning something, and I’ll wager you’ll be there in Cardiff/Wembley come cup final day whichever cup that might be.
Remi Murray
27 Posted 03/12/2007 at 23:06:41
27 Posted 03/12/2007 at 23:06:41
Harry has a point though. Moyes is now in his 6th year at Everton, has had a lot of time and no small amount of money. so there are no real excuses.
Con Morris
28 Posted 04/12/2007 at 08:10:01
28 Posted 04/12/2007 at 08:10:01
You don’t lower parameters,you change them and Moyes has certainly done that by indicating that the lower figure indicating success is tenth rather than fourth.
Everybody on here seems happy to buy into that nonsence but come next May I don’t think too many of us will be jumping for joy if Everton achieve only a mid-table place.
A run of success against a string of modest teams seems to be clouding current judgement,the test will come against the top-half sides.Then we will know if we have really made progress.
Everybody on here seems happy to buy into that nonsence but come next May I don’t think too many of us will be jumping for joy if Everton achieve only a mid-table place.
A run of success against a string of modest teams seems to be clouding current judgement,the test will come against the top-half sides.Then we will know if we have really made progress.
John Lloyd
29 Posted 04/12/2007 at 10:32:20
29 Posted 04/12/2007 at 10:32:20
Chill out, its something Moyes has done since he came here.
He sets the bar low in interviews & press conferences yet I can assure you behind the scenes his target is high up the league as possible, one game at a time with the overall target of Euro qualification through league & to be involved in the latter stages of all cup competitions.
I know there were about 4 cliches in there but they are very, very true to what football clubs aim for.
He sets the bar low in interviews & press conferences yet I can assure you behind the scenes his target is high up the league as possible, one game at a time with the overall target of Euro qualification through league & to be involved in the latter stages of all cup competitions.
I know there were about 4 cliches in there but they are very, very true to what football clubs aim for.
Paul Rigby
30 Posted 04/12/2007 at 12:15:40
30 Posted 04/12/2007 at 12:15:40
The thing is though, Moyes does have a point.
At present we are ninth, with 24 points after our 15th match. At the same point in the season last year Portsmouth had the same record - and were third in the league with that points total. So, yes, it probably will be harder to get in to the top 6 this year, as all the teams around that area are picking up much more points than this time last year.
Don?t get me wrong, I want Everton to be there, I think that we should be there and I will be dissapointed if we are not there, but in all likelyhood it will be harder this year.
At present we are ninth, with 24 points after our 15th match. At the same point in the season last year Portsmouth had the same record - and were third in the league with that points total. So, yes, it probably will be harder to get in to the top 6 this year, as all the teams around that area are picking up much more points than this time last year.
Don?t get me wrong, I want Everton to be there, I think that we should be there and I will be dissapointed if we are not there, but in all likelyhood it will be harder this year.
David Barks
31 Posted 04/12/2007 at 15:15:07
31 Posted 04/12/2007 at 15:15:07
Con,
Show me the quote where Moyes says that finishing 10th would be a success. If you can’t, then please just stop. He is saying the competition is much harder, which is the truth. If you would simply take a look at how close places 3 through 9 are in the table you would see this. And as Paul points out, Portsmouth were 3rd in the league last year with this exact points total through 15 games. Moyes never said it will be a successful season if we finished 10th, you’re putting words in his mouth. So learn how to read the story before you comment on what the details are.
Show me the quote where Moyes says that finishing 10th would be a success. If you can’t, then please just stop. He is saying the competition is much harder, which is the truth. If you would simply take a look at how close places 3 through 9 are in the table you would see this. And as Paul points out, Portsmouth were 3rd in the league last year with this exact points total through 15 games. Moyes never said it will be a successful season if we finished 10th, you’re putting words in his mouth. So learn how to read the story before you comment on what the details are.
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1 Posted 03/12/2007 at 15:47:52
if we win a cup (even the league cup)
then if we get top 10 its a bonus.
if we crash out of the cups then 6/7th place is a minimum expectation.
i think moyes is really going after a cup this year though to be honest.
AND if we finish 10th and get a cup more players will want to come to us