Kenwright admitted those options would be Plans B and C if (when?!) the Kirkby proposal falls apart. As you say, that flies in the face of what Keith "on the train to Kirkby" Wyness said during the ballot ? that if the vote was "no", there was "no plan B". Of course, there always were other options, just not "deliverable" ones by Wyness's parameters. Trouble is, he didn't ever bother to find out how deliverable or undeliverable those alternatives were/are and presented the fans with Hobson's Choice. And the result was predictable ? after all, how many fans when taking the club's line at face value felt confident in turning down what was pitched as a chance to ultimately provide more transfer funds for the manager?

The issue now is that the cost of Kirkby started out as "practically free", went through the £25m and £50m barriers during the lifetime of the ballot and is now estimated to be around £80m. At those prices ? and assuming we have the funds to pay for it, although no one knows where they'll come from ? the redevelopment of Goodison deserves to be looked at as a viable alternative. And if, as they insist, Bestway and the LCC can provide a package to rival that on offer from Tesco on Scotland Road, then that's one more option that was not given due consideration prior to the ballot.

One of most important things the Kirkby sceptics wanted was evidence that the club had properly explored these other options; instead, they appear to be a) constantly to reacting to new initiatives by releasing ad hoc statements from experts connected to the Kirkby proposal, and b) now admitting that they will have to look at these previously "undeliverable" options if Kirkby doesn't come off.

Again No voters clutching at straws, he never said we had plan B or C when quizzed he said I suppose they are the only other options which is a statement of fact. An option does not mean they are viable. What you all can see is the loop site is a stupid plan B and cant be done within a budget its a simple conclusion. We all would stay at GP that?s an easy answer but a green field site offers extra revenue streams and a major sponsor any plan B needs to have this basic criteria or its floored because we dont have the funds to pay for it FACT. Please start pushing Walton Park rather than the loop it holds far more middle ground for both sides and seems viable if LCC had some balls, but they dont they are just the giving KEIOC lip service and sadly true Evertonians are being backed by losers and thats the problem No voters should not have been pushed by a crowd that cant even plan the Beatles weekend! Before any deal can be done you must have a viable finance offer, either by a sponsor or even rich new owner until then you pissing the wind. EFC

One thing that always confuses me is the different figures we keep getting as the Club’s indebtedness.Last night we wer told that the figure had risen slightly to some £29 M which includes the long-term mortgage on season ticket income.That seems totally manageable to me although the interest figue of nearly £3M seems a bit over the top.
However,your in-house expert gave the debt figure as £60M a few weeks ago and others have written to say it’s nearer £80M! Which is correct?
Similarly, we keep getting different figures for the cost of the Kirkby project-can’t somebody come up with a true and accurate figure for once?

I'm sorry, this is all rubbish again. Yes voters were not misinformed, and nothing that has happened since would make me for one change my vote.

Of course, when we were told that there were not Options B or C we, as intelligent human beings, understood that to mean that, in the opinion of the club, there were no GOOD Options B or C. We are not idiots. There are ALWAYS other options. The question is which is the BEST option, given the avaliable, fundable alternatives.

On that, the situation remains the same as it ever was. Given the available alternatives, and our unfortunately modest financial position, Kirkby remains the best option. There are good arguments about Goodison, but most of us don?t believe this is a real goer for our long term future. And the Loop option is too small, too expensive and the Bestway and LCC partnera are too weak / incompetent. I do not need precise engineering calculations to know that building a large new stadium on a traffic island is risky and expensive.

The Nos continued argument is a version of: ?you must have voted Yes because you believed Kirkby would cost exactly £x, it was Kirkby or extinction for our club etc. etc. (i.e, because you were a misinformed idiot); and now that it turns out that the cost may have gone up (wow! like Wembley or the New Anfield or just about any other construction project), and that we could always stay at Goodison (shock! horror!), you were obviously misinformed and must really have wanted to vote No; and must feel very guilty and want to apologise?.

This is insulting rubbish. I am not an idiot, nor are other Yes voters. We voted Yes because we believe that we need to move, and think that, on balance, Kirkby is the best of the alternative alternatives. We have our own minds and oddly enough don?t believe everything we are told by the club, and we find it insulting to be contnually portrayed as mindless sheep. A little respect for your fellow thinking Blues would be in order. Even if they voted Yes.

"I believe that the [Loop] site is too small and will be a complicated construction involving building over the road. The cost of that, although we have had no figures, will be hugely more than the Kirkby project".

This I just read from Everton’s consultant last night. No voters keep saying "we have no idea of costs!!". But we do. Be honest, does any of you seriously doubt this second sentence above? Does any of you seriously think that the Loop would not be massively more expensive to construct than Kirkby?

Neil Pearce, what a self indulgent, neurotic response from you. There was absolutely no criticism of you in my posting; so who rattled your cage mate. Believe it or not this issue is not about how people percieve you; in fact I dont give a toss about you as there much more important matters at stake here. It is about the future of Everton Football Club.

hear hear

Sorry Steve, but the sentence "are you still too blind to see it?" rattled my cage. It implies exactly what I claimed: that you are accusing Yes voters of being blind to start with, and still blind now. That is insulting.

By the way, I care about Everton Football Club as well, just like you. That’s why I voted Yes.

Contrarily to what has been stated in some replies above, I think the rising cost of the « Plan A » move to Kirkby is highly significant to both the intelligent and less intellectually gifted,
added to the already highly emotional question of leaving GP to take a leap out of the city.

The ballot question gave an indication of a cost to EFC of between £25M-£50M if I am correct.
Intelligent people voting will indeed have deduced, despite the official line being « there is no plan B or C », that any other alternative plans would cost a lot more (£200M ? £250M ?).
Hence the Hobson?s choice : can afford vs can?t afford.

If, now, plan A is finally costing more than the £50M mark and is actually approaching the £100M, this figure is rapidly decreasing the initial gap between what EFC has considered a « deliverable » project and plans B and C which EFC has considered « non-deliverable » to the point of not even carrying out a detailed cost evaluation of said alternatives.

What is galling and is apparent from Bill Kenright?s emotional interview is that despite EFC employing the services of « highly skilled and competent experts », plans B and C have STILL NOT HAD an official cost analysis study done BY THE CLUB.
Indeed Bill states that EFC are using all their energy on the plan A and that it is for « others » to continue to pursue other alternatives, not EFC. That is the point that most surprises me from his replies.
He gives the impression that alternatives have been pursued by EFC but presents nothing concrete for their rejection apart from dismissive uncosted comments.

Supporters of the club need to be reassured that all alternatives have had a cost analysis made to the same degree as has the Kirkby project. Only then can an honest balanced decision be made leaving only the emotional element.

And one final point : has EFC ever given the actual figure (cost) of any project which makes it deliverable or not for the club i.e. is it £50M, £100M, £150M ?? Consider this figure compared to a progress redevelopment plan of GP for example ?

I think the problem here is illustrated by what you refer to as "dismissive uncosted comments" on the other sites.

Reading the report from the AGM, you can characterize the club’s position in a very different way. They have had their consultant look at all sites. On the basis of that consultancy, they have decided that the Loop site does not meet the minimum standards for size and cost (and I would imagine partners) which would merit further detailed investigation. Given the quote I copy above from the consultant, and indeed the obvious facts about the Loop site, that is hardly an unreasonable position, even if it is one that you can disagree with.

Nor, critically, does it amount to dismissing the Loop without even looking at it. The club position on this is brutally clear: they have in fact looked at the Loop site, but they don’t like it. They are under no obligation to do detailed analyses of sites that they don’t think are goers.

I would indeed like to be in a position where I cannot reasonably disagree with the club and its consultant’s conclusions.
However the conclusions have not been given other then through - I repeat - dismissive uncosted comments like those given in the AGM initial report you quote.
Added to this the fact that Bill states in his interview that the consultant concluded that Site C is too small for a 50,000 seater goes contrary to another consultant (whose opinion I also trust) from Bestway (& HOK) stating that a 55,000 seater could be built there.

What I want to hear from EFC is : "our cost estimation for plan A is £X Million, our cost estimation for plan B is £Y Million. And here is how we got to those figures..."

Until that is done I cannot see that a balanced cost evaluation has been made and therefore cannot be certain that the right decision is being made.

David, I do see your point but still disagree. First of all, I don’t imagine that the key sticking point for the club on the Loop is the size, but the cost. And to repeat again what their consultant said last night: "... a complicated construction involving building over the road. The cost of that, although we have had no figures, will be hugely over the Kirkby project".

My simple claim is that you don’t need to do very detailed cost analyses when the difference in cost is obviously "huge". You don’t need a measuring tape to know that Alan Stubbs is taller than Leon Osman.

Leon is still a growing lad.

:-)

That’s my point.

Fair point! But Alan really is pretty tall. That’s mine! :-)

What i dont understand is the club?s ?expert? (Chris Potts) who has ?studied? the Loop and decided its too small. Yet the HOK company who are world reknowned experts have studied it and confirmed it can hold 50-60000.
Which is correct?
Well given HOK are world reknowned and knowing Everton FCs recent record on doing things ?properly?. I think I know who to believe.
What really gets me is that if Kirkby will cost us £80m then surely that would go along way to building on another site too (be it GP, The Loop, or elsewhere)?
Surely if we need additional investment to fund the ground/club a stadium in Liverpool would attract more investmment??

No real feasibility has been done by the club into other sites. They have closed the doors on these options without any sound consideration. I fear the worst. We all (YES and NO voters) want the best but moving to Kirkby could really fragment the fan base and the club itself.
You cant compare moving to GP from Analfield 100 years ago to now. Different circumstances back then and we had only been there for a small amount of years anyway.
If we need to leave our home then lets hold out for the best we can get. Surely people can see that Kirkby (the location, the stadium design, the whole proposal) is not the best we can get?!

Before I sign off and get on with the rest of my life (!), I did just want to say where I think criticism directed at the club - and especially Wyness - is more than justified.

I think they have been far too unwilling to come out and tell the blunt truth which is driving the whole decision to go to Kirkby. WE ARE NOT VERY RICH. So they use silly weasel words like "not deliverable" (which perhaps implies ’not practical’) when really all it comes down to is ’not affordable by us’.

If only they were honest they could come out and say something simple like: "Of course we looked at the Loop and other sites. But the bottom line is that they are much more expensive purchases and builds than Kirkby, and we don’t have the sharing with and buyer power of Tescos. So we can’t do them. We might be able to afford to redevelop Goodison, but we cannot bear any disruption in our revenues, and do not believe it gives us the long-term revenue streams we need".

Perhaps the club does not want to admit so blatantly that our relative poverty is driving this decision. But without admitting that, they say things which don’t really stack up and just fuel further arguments. Honesty would be a much better policy.

I have to agree with David Smith, I believe the club DO have to do a cost analysis of all considered sites and give details of how they have arrived at the given figures.

Further than that they should have given a preliminary vote of which sites should be considered based on size, cost & requirements. Then & only then would it have been a true vote, not this overly quoted, Hobson's choice! Which forced fans on both sides of the argument to pick what they concieve to be the lesser of two evils, not what is BEST for the club they all so obviously love.

From the outside, with the information I have gathered myself the biggest issue lies with a Rasputin type CEO who is inept at the job & is causing this new stadium debate to be a horrid, dividing, dishonest & painful affair as opposed to an emotional, exciting time for the club which is what it should be!!

Do your research on Wyness, I believe he has somehow bluffed his way into a number of top jobs, following the same plan in each one yet leaving no organisation in a better state than when he found it. Ask an Aberdeen fan.

John, once the club gets honest as I suggest, why on earth would it put in front of supporters an option (e.g. the Loop) which the club knows already that it cannot afford?

As Kirkby costs escalate, this doesn’t mean that we can now afford other more expensive options. It means that we might not be able to afford Kirkby either. (WE ARE NOT VERY RICH.)

Perhaps the conclusion from all this is that, given that in the end the club cannot afford to go for any other decent option than the lowest cost one (i.e. Kirkby), it was a farce to put all this to a vote in the first place. Certainly might have saved some time on Toffeeweb!

Kirkby here we come, gerrin!

I voted yes. I would still vote yes if we had another ballot today.

However, I think it would be sensible for the club to at least make further investigations into alternative sites, whether that be the loop or somewhere else, given the growing opposition for the proposed stadium in Kirkby from the local residents and the alternative plans that have been submitted to re-develop Kirkby town centre.

You know it makes sense.

I totally agree with John Lloyd, as for ALL Evertonians the issue of moving away from Goodison is heart-wrenching as a huge number of people have fond memories of our glorious past viewed from the seats and stands of the "old lady". The problem with ALL Evertonians is that they are being torn apart by their own clubs? abject failure to provide an honest, well considered approach to relocating the stadium to Kirkby and the use of the misleading term "delivarable".

The problem with our club is that we have a Chairman who loves the club so much he is suffocating it. He has made his money through theatre and this stadium debate is beginning to rival any of his so called box office hits, the drama! the roller coaster ride! or whatever you would loosely term this debacle is tearing the club apart.

We have a Chief Executive who has extremely questionable success wherever he has been and is showing himself to be the incompetent lap-dog begging for external help he has been in most of his other roles in or out of the business of football.

If for one "deliverable" moment the people in charge of this club listened as they said they would to the supporters on what they wanted for the so-called People?s Club then maybe, just maybe they would not have acted so irresponsibly with a handful of "facts" about the Kirkby project to lure the voters in to a quite frankly George W Bush-style ballot victory.

At least we have learned one thing from this debate: Everton FC are the People?s Club... with those people being Keith Wyness and Bill Kenwright.

I am absolutely aghast to hear that by their own admission Kenwright and Wyness haven?t done any costings on the redevelop of Goodison and they ?may have to look at it? if Kirkby falls through.

I am further disillsioned that he has put the future of Everton on the words of Chris Potts of Savilles who will clearly have his own motives for pushing the ?easiest? project forward and a subsequent payday on the back of it. It is one big fucking joke and just confirms my previous opinion that Wyness and Kenwright just want what is easiest as they don?t have the capacity, vision or competence that people in their positions should have.

The only solace I take from this is that when it goes belly up, which looks more and more likely by the day, then hopefully that will lead to the end of Wyness. Fingers crossed...

KEIOC are losing credibility by the second (as if they had any in the first place of course!). It was insulting to Evertonians in the extreme to suggest that 15,000 voted for Kirkby and 21,000 voted against, any Evertonian with a brain cell could see that 15,000 voted for the move, 10,000 voted against and 11,000 had better things to do than worry about the ground move.

The KEIOC monkeys have exposed themselves as liars yet again. :)

One question. So Everton commission a detailed comparable cost analysis of Kirkby and the Loop. As it must obviously show, Kirkby (an open greenfield site with a very strong partner) will come out substantially lower cost than the Loop (a constrained highly complex site with a rather weak partner). What then?

Plan Z is looking godd, go Cap in hand to redshite for stadium share.

How comes we always piss about when other clubs just get on with it. Yet again thanks Bill Kenright, you have doen nothing for us and never will, please go back to your luveys. I want a chairman who gets results, ALL clubs above us in the league have atracted large investment.

Neil, you continue to make this same valid point very strongly. And as things stand you are quite right : no partner, no new stadium.
However I will suggest an answer : who went knocking on the door of Tesco for the Kirkby site ?
Could that same person not go knocking on the door of A.N.Other potential commercial partner(s) for an alternative site (loop or GP redevelopment) ?

The argument is of course lopsided in Kirkby’s favour so long as the partner exists there and not elsewhere.
Which is why I repeat we need some concrete figures :
1) stadium cost on site A, site B and site C ;
2) amount EFC can afford to put into the project whatever the site, which leaves us with the amount left over for a partner(s) to stump up ;
3) elaboration of a commercial deal proposal (supermarket, hotel, shopping centre...)
4) scouting of potential partners

All this is the job of EFC (unless a future partner with an eye for a deal is alert e.g. Bestway) with studies and concrete figures. It is not the job of "others" as Bill K suggests in his interview.


And before anyone says "nobody went knocking on Tesco’s door", it was them who came to EFC, I say there is another "partner" who has come to us (Bestway), let’s listen !

Neil, you touched on the most important aspect of this whole debate when you posted "it was a farce to put all this to a vote in the first place. Certainly might have saved some time on ToffeeWeb! "

It was an absolute joke for EFC Ltd to put such a massive decision to the fans and I would suggest that is why KEIOC is so fervent in their abuse.

The club should have just come out and said, "We are moving here and building will start in 20??" instead of causing the biggest rift between Everton fans I have ever known.

With regards to getting these reports to confirm that the Loop site is a) Too small and b) Too expensive.....Why should they? They have chosen to chase the Kirkby aspect and why should they spend however many thousands compiling a report to placate a faction of Anti-Kirkby fans.

The sign says the People's Club but it is his club and he doesn?t have to justify any decision if he doesn?t want to.

David, maybe the other unmentionable thing in this whole debate (along with the fact that we are not very rich...), is that IT’S TESCO. Roy makes a good point that the strength of Tescos (quite arguably the most powerful company in the UK) does make this the ’easiest’ option.

The question is whether that is a bad thing. I actually think that only balance it is a very good thing. We are getting into bed with a gorilla it is true, but on the positive side: (a) they are hugely experienced in delivering such projects (I trust Leahy a lot more than I trust Wyness!); (b) they have more political and commercial clout than anyone, and so can deal with the inevitable obstacles along the way (I’m sure Gordon Brown takes Leahy’s telephone calls but not Kenwright’s); and (c) it is a stone cold certainty that Tesco can get the lowest cost construction in the UK (they build the most sites). Leahy is also a committed Evertonian, which doesn’t guarantee anything, but is certainly better than not.

We needed to find an option which we could afford, and which had a partner who was guaranteed to deliver. You can see why Kirkby with Tescos looks better than any alternative to Kenwright and Wyness. Tesco’s involvement certainly makes me happier about it. The location may not be perfect but at least the bloody thing will get built!

The vote was so loaded it was ridiculous & I agree Neil, they shouldn't hacve had it at all.

I also don't agree with the constant barracking of Bill Kenwright, the biggest insult you could level at him is gullible. The CEO is the one who makes the big decisions or presents them in a way that it seems the only option. Like I said earlier, with that joke of a chief exec Wyness we will probably fuck any development up in Kirkby. Football fans are a lot more knowledgable these days & surely they know that as much as we don't want it to be, the club is ran as a business & the man running it (Keith Wyness) is not fit to run a newstand selling Echoes. He simply has to go, he is a snake who has no interests but his own at heart.

He has to go.

Very constructive there John.

And whilst we are on about lies, deceipt etc. Where is your evidence that
?Keith Wyness? is not fit to run a newstand selling Echos? He simply has to go, he is a snake who has no interests but his own at heart.

All I can see so far is that he has a different opinion to a number of posters here. That doesn?t automatically make him not good at his job.

Actually John, I don’t think the vote was "loaded", I just think it was foolish because the club actually has very few options given our financial strength.

In some ways Wyness has been more direct and honest than Kenwright. Although a stupid way of putting it, the reality, like it or not, is that there are no ’good’ Plan Bs that we have found that we can afford (apart from staying at Goodison and hoping for the best).

It may turn out that we can’t afford Kirkby either, but that’s a different matter. But it’s stupid to have a vote when you are poor and when one option is head and shoulders above the others in terms of its costs. I strongly suspect that it was Kenwright who wanted the vote, not Wyness.

Kenwright continues to just sound like he is bumbling around but ’doing his best’. See this just on the national BBC - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/7128283.stm
Mind you, the Corky the Cat quote is a good one!

RE: Keith Wyness

Chris, he is not fit for EFC. He lies, he exaggerates and manipulates information. He?s like a politician only serving his own needs. Kirkby has no positive in his book other then it?s a quick way to get a big fat bonus. Then he?ll be off tagging himself as "The man who modernized Everton FC". While we deal with the consequences.

Let?s look at his best decision yet. Closing down every EFC shop in the northwest (bar the club shop). I thought we were trying to increase our presence as a Club. So we get £1m off JJB and they force us to close all our shops. While LFC have their shops all over the place (and their merchandise in JJB stores).
Excellent thinking Keith.
Build a lovely new training complex and the sell it for less than the going rate. Then lease it back and end up paying a shit load more for it at a later date. AWESOME!!!!
The Kirkby stadium is just the latest of his short term fixes. The guy is dragging us down. He states the obvious and some people drop their jaw in amazement. Comments along the lines of;

"We need a new stadium" - wow, really Keith?
"We need to increase turnover" - no shit Keith?
"We need bigger profits to compete with the best" - words of wisdom Keith.
?We need to market the club better? ? give the guy a medal.

Short term profit but long term instability. And he?ll be long gone when the shit comes back to haunt us.

Andrew well said

I'm getting fed up of the continual carping from the "Say No to Kirkby" lobby. You lost . Get over it.

They need to take a good look at themselves. At the recent derby match, when we needed a united front against the enemy, what did they do?.... put out leaflets attacking the club and flying a plane over the pitch whilst our team was trying to beat Liverpool and giving their fans ammunition a-plenty.

The AGM last night sounds like it was a vehicle to attack the custodians of our club, who to me are doing a decent job.

I don't know how true this is (which is why i am posting this) but...

A friend who works a lot with Tesco's management says that the exclusivity deal which we all know about has clauses in which we pull out of it could cost the club somewhere between £10 and £15 millon.

Could this be a reason why Baron greenback refuses to acknowledge there may be any other viable alternative? Just a thought, hope someone can clear this up.

Thanks Mike, all we need is more conspiracy theories!

Could I just make one suggestion? Perhaps Bill and Keith are supporting the Kirkby option because they think it is the best available option for the club in terms of what we need and what is affordable?

Now, you may disagree with them. But it isn’t it just possible that this is the truth rather than that they are lying self-interested bastards intent on screwing the supporters, killing the club, and lining their own pockets?

Bill Kenwright must be a dedicated fan. Listening to the crap spouted by people who do not actually have to deal with the problem is unbelievable. If you remember the state Everton FC was in then I don’t thnk he took it on to make a fast few quid.

Why not let the board manage the business and supporters can support. It takes seven goals or the defeat of Man U to get any noise in Goodison. Save your breath for the game!

Rob Hollis ,if you think Goodison is quiet wait 10 years and go to Tescodome @ Kirkby. We will be playing in the Championship in front of 10,000 and trying to resign a 16 stone has-been called Wayne Rooney.

Glad you have so much faith in Everton, Alan! Personally I don’t think our great club with all its history, and with its current great promise, will disappear just because we move our ground a few miles away.

Neil ,I really do fear for our great club if we go to Kirkby. The new generation of fans will be brainwashed by the dark side as the only club in the city. City of culture and regeneration ,it’s all happening in Liverpool and we are moving out ? Okay it’s just a few miles but it is significant. If we go to Kirkby and don’t win some silverware ,the support will dwindle. That is my biggest fear.

Okay, Alan, I do hear you. I think we will be fine actually - our support is stronger than you think! - but I hear your concern. I think that the Big Four are sweeping up a lot of youngsters these days. I expect there will be a G14 league in the next five years or so. But I don’t think whether we move to Kirkby not will make much difference to that.

I,d just like to know where all these stadium cost figures come from ! I,ve been to most of the presentations and spoken to some people involved in the Kirkby discussions but nowhere have I heard any concrete figures apart from Terry Lehay,s.
On the subject of plans "A" & "B". They don,t exist ,and, the reason they don,t exist is because they are" not deliverable".
Nobody with any business accumen is going to invest in a football stadium that won,t give them a return on their money.That means that E.F.C.would have to finance any move in the city.
Enter Tesco.The only way round the ban on in town superstores is to provide some sort of leisure or sports facility. If we agree to the move, they get their retail complex we get a stadium.Good business all round.
The next step is to make sure that any stadium is built to a standard befitting our great club.We may then see some serious investment in EFC .As it is I don,t hold out much hope of any money coming into the club if we stay where we are.
We all would like to stay at the Grand Old Lady,we all would like to stay in the city,but,as Jerry McGuire said "Show me the money"