The Mail Bag
Window of Opportunity
Comments (27)
I noticed a couple of people crowing after the Fulham result that Moyes doubters, like myself, had been very quiet recently.
Quite right too ? if you have stuck by someone you have the right to feel vindicated when things look like they will come good. To win 11 of the last 15 matches is excellent and is a testament to the hard work put in by Moyes and the players.
What Moyes has done is give himself a window of opportunity to really achieve something tangible this season and show fans like me, who had long given up on him, that he is the real deal.
However (come on, you knew it was coming!) West Ham on Wednesday will I feel give the best indictaion to date of what will happen this season. The recent fixture list has been relatively kind (Chelsea and Pompey aside) but this week they will face a good team away from home where there can be no creditible draw ? only success or failure.
In the past this is a situation where Moyes has been at his weakest but a win this week will I feel really make the football world sit up and take notice. It really could be Moyes's watershed moment. If we lose then it doesn't devalue the achievement of the last 15 games but I think it will seriously undermine confidence that we can deliver in the big games.
It may not be fair but ultimately these are the games which great managers are judged upon. It is my fervent wish that Moyes can continue to make my doubts about his ability look very foolish indeed.
John Doolan, Posted 09/12/2007 at 18:36:14
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Barry Bragg
1 Posted 09/12/2007 at 19:32:33
1 Posted 09/12/2007 at 19:32:33
Well the last time I looked at the table West Ham were 5 points and 3 places behind us so we don’t have to worry about beating a team above us Michael.
Yes its a big game against a useful team but certainly no more difficult than the games against Chelsea and Portsmouth and we held our own there. Let the Hammers worry about us. Moyes is slowly learning how to send his teams out to win these cup games even if we are still a little reserved in the league. If we take our UEFA cup form into this game we should be ok.
Yes its a big game against a useful team but certainly no more difficult than the games against Chelsea and Portsmouth and we held our own there. Let the Hammers worry about us. Moyes is slowly learning how to send his teams out to win these cup games even if we are still a little reserved in the league. If we take our UEFA cup form into this game we should be ok.
Eric Hardman
2 Posted 09/12/2007 at 19:42:07
2 Posted 09/12/2007 at 19:42:07
Facts: against bottom 8 teams P8 W8, against the rest P 8 won 0. Moyes and his apologists are living in a dream world. They will wake up this week, one way or the other. Lets hope it’s not a nightmare.
Peter Eastoe
3 Posted 09/12/2007 at 20:07:47
3 Posted 09/12/2007 at 20:07:47
Eric Hardman...even a sad ’Moyes apologist’ like me isn’t going to fall for that sad attempt at a wind up !
Now go on ’Shankley Gates’ and tell them that ’we’ need Roy Evans back in charge.
Now go on ’Shankley Gates’ and tell them that ’we’ need Roy Evans back in charge.
Karl Masters
4 Posted 09/12/2007 at 20:11:26
4 Posted 09/12/2007 at 20:11:26
It’s great to be an Evertonian right now, but John Doolan is absolutely spot on. We’ve not won anything yet and we need to prove ourselves in games such as this.
That said, I fancy us to nick it on Wednesday, maybe even on the dreaded penalties, and pick up at least a point there again next Saturday. We shall see! :)
That said, I fancy us to nick it on Wednesday, maybe even on the dreaded penalties, and pick up at least a point there again next Saturday. We shall see! :)
Michael Kenrick
5 Posted 09/12/2007 at 20:18:33
5 Posted 09/12/2007 at 20:18:33
As posted on another thread, the League Cup games (not sure any more about FA Cup games) get settled one way or the other on the night. No replays (thank god). (Semis being two legs anyway.)
As an aside, I think the whole Replay thing went down the pan the moment the bloody cops insisted on them NOT being played a few days later (ah... the Good Old Days...) but pushed out at least 10 days. Spoilt the entire momentum, that did.
Lee Hind
6 Posted 09/12/2007 at 20:07:53
6 Posted 09/12/2007 at 20:07:53
Eric and to a degree John, you strike me as the type of people who are just waiting for Moyes/the team to slip up so you can crow "told you so". What a sad existence!! In case you hadn’t noticed we’re on the end of a ten game unbeaten run (fixtures have NOT been kind or unkind, we play as the computer commands) we have qualified for the knock out stages of the UEFA cup top of our group with a game to spare, we’re in the last 8 of the League Cup, sat pretty in the most competitive top flight for 10 years and with a favourable draw in the FA Cup. Your lives must have been so empty as we have failed to slip up for weeks on end....Did you think we should have got more from Chelsea? Our fault that we were on the receiving end of what is widely accepted to be the most one sided refereeing display in living memory as we lost to the redshite? I can hear you now Eric, "P8 W0..." doesn’t quite tell the story though does it? I hope you enjoy us winning a trophy (yes, this season) as much as you enjoy knocking our steady progress from the team Moyes inherited and its performances (remember??) to where we are now. We’ve improved beyond measure and continue to do so....long may it carry on!!!!!
Neil Pearse
7 Posted 09/12/2007 at 20:24:06
7 Posted 09/12/2007 at 20:24:06
John, bit puzzled by this post I have to say! We are unbeaten for ten on the spin, win most of them, thrash a few sides at home, win all our Euro games, get very good points away at Chelsea and Pompey - and then everything really depends on the next game with West Ham? Eh?? So if we lose at West Ham we can all conclude that we are having a crap season after all?
The reality is that at some point we are going to slip up. Arsenal, Liverpool, Man City and Blackburn (to West Ham) all lost this weekend to pretty inferior opposition. It happens. West Ham is another game, not a watershed. It is not even as important as our first game in the UEFA knock out stages. Or Premiership games against our main rivals - Man City, Pompey, Blackburn, Villa - for top 6 places.
You are right: losing at West Ham in the Carling Cup does not devalue our achievement so far this season. Indeed, it hardly touches it. (And I think we will at least draw by the way!)
The reality is that at some point we are going to slip up. Arsenal, Liverpool, Man City and Blackburn (to West Ham) all lost this weekend to pretty inferior opposition. It happens. West Ham is another game, not a watershed. It is not even as important as our first game in the UEFA knock out stages. Or Premiership games against our main rivals - Man City, Pompey, Blackburn, Villa - for top 6 places.
You are right: losing at West Ham in the Carling Cup does not devalue our achievement so far this season. Indeed, it hardly touches it. (And I think we will at least draw by the way!)
Martin Cutler
8 Posted 09/12/2007 at 20:36:03
8 Posted 09/12/2007 at 20:36:03
The reality is that over the season we play 38 games and the final standings are based on all 38...not the last ten or so, or the start of the season or the game against West Ham next Saturday!
Against the top four we had a close game against Manyoo, a well-deserved draw against Chelsea and we were fucking robbed against The Shite.......and all of this, or most of it, was before we went on this FANTASTIC run (and Cahill etc returned) ......... it’s all guesswork at the end of the day as to where we’ll finish or what we might or might not win but I think Moyes and the lads are doing bloody brilliant!!!
Against the top four we had a close game against Manyoo, a well-deserved draw against Chelsea and we were fucking robbed against The Shite.......and all of this, or most of it, was before we went on this FANTASTIC run (and Cahill etc returned) ......... it’s all guesswork at the end of the day as to where we’ll finish or what we might or might not win but I think Moyes and the lads are doing bloody brilliant!!!
John Doolan
9 Posted 09/12/2007 at 20:49:58
9 Posted 09/12/2007 at 20:49:58
Guys you are missing the point. I want Moyes and the team to suceed but it is games like wednesday that will dictate whether we have the nerve to do so. There will be more chances to suceed this season but west ham is the first crunch game. Stop prentending that doing well in no pressure games is the real measure of success because it is not. For the first time in a long while I go into a key game believing we can win but ultimtaely the result will be everthing
Alex Baker
10 Posted 09/12/2007 at 21:09:38
10 Posted 09/12/2007 at 21:09:38
If West Ham is the first ’’crunch game,’’ what about the game against Metalist away? The Redshite? Portsmouth? They have all shaped our season.
Eric Hardman
11 Posted 09/12/2007 at 21:05:45
11 Posted 09/12/2007 at 21:05:45
Nobody will be happier than me if we continue on our run of success but all I’ve picked up on is Michael’s point about not having beaten a team above us in the league. The facts show that the 8 teams we’ve beaten are the exact bottom 8 teams at the moment. A few weeks ago 90% of the posters on this site were calling for Moyes to go. Suddenly he’s God. Forgetting Alkmaar as it’s irrelevant, the next four UK games will hopefully prove that we are really making progress. I’m optimistic that we can show we are progressing but I think we should wait until we’ve beaten one of our rivals before we go overboard about it.
As someone who was privileged to be in the Upper Bullens when Roy Vernon hit a hat-trick against Fulham to clinch the title in 1963 I have to ask whether Michael was serious when he said he would ban any Evertonian who accused a fellow blue of being RS.
As someone who was privileged to be in the Upper Bullens when Roy Vernon hit a hat-trick against Fulham to clinch the title in 1963 I have to ask whether Michael was serious when he said he would ban any Evertonian who accused a fellow blue of being RS.
Phil Bellis
12 Posted 09/12/2007 at 21:20:59
12 Posted 09/12/2007 at 21:20:59
A personal measure of how much we have improved is the fact that I’m no longer worrying over asking for an EFC-related book for Christmas. I know it’s daft but In years past, the pleasure in reading about the good times and great players has been diminished by worrying about our league position and the fear of relegation.
A few years ago in a festive phone call to a good friend, a Celtic fan, he remarked ’ watsup with Everton? 28 points and it’s not even Christmas’
Well, we’re only 13 points off safety and it’s only 9 December. Thank you Moyesey. Now, let em off the leash, my son. You know they are up to it.
A few years ago in a festive phone call to a good friend, a Celtic fan, he remarked ’ watsup with Everton? 28 points and it’s not even Christmas’
Well, we’re only 13 points off safety and it’s only 9 December. Thank you Moyesey. Now, let em off the leash, my son. You know they are up to it.
Stefan Tosev
13 Posted 09/12/2007 at 21:29:06
13 Posted 09/12/2007 at 21:29:06
Michael I think you are a bit harsh with your statement:"our proven inability to beat anyone above us in the table"
From all 6 teams that are above us we played only 4 games against them Chelsea and Portsmuth - away draws, late defeat against Man U and the Calttenburg-deby.
I dont think we played bad in any of these games,we were nether dominated or outplayed, we are still to face city and Arsenal so as you hate make predictions how can you state that we will not win against these teams.Lets wait for the games to come, to be played and then to discuss it.
I would argue however that last season we were the team that took most points from the so called "Big four" including 2 wins against Arsenal and our neighbours anddenied one at Chelsea this for me doesnt speak for "proven inability to beat anyone above us in the table"
From all 6 teams that are above us we played only 4 games against them Chelsea and Portsmuth - away draws, late defeat against Man U and the Calttenburg-deby.
I dont think we played bad in any of these games,we were nether dominated or outplayed, we are still to face city and Arsenal so as you hate make predictions how can you state that we will not win against these teams.Lets wait for the games to come, to be played and then to discuss it.
I would argue however that last season we were the team that took most points from the so called "Big four" including 2 wins against Arsenal and our neighbours anddenied one at Chelsea this for me doesnt speak for "proven inability to beat anyone above us in the table"
Neil Rimmer
14 Posted 09/12/2007 at 21:44:03
14 Posted 09/12/2007 at 21:44:03
I fear we may still have to be satisfied with being ’ best of the rest’.By that I mean kings of the teams outside the Euro places.But with some Cup success,I’ll put up with it!
Michael Kenrick
15 Posted 09/12/2007 at 22:37:41
15 Posted 09/12/2007 at 22:37:41
Stefan, I?m guessing English isn?t your fiirst language so perhaps you could be forgiven for thinking that I predicted we would not beat any of the teams above us. I do not make predictions, especially ones that stupid. I did not state that we would not win against these teams. I was talking about the fact that we have proven ourselves (in the four matches you cite) unable to beat any of them (so far this season). It?s a harsh statement (if you are sensitive soul, perhaps)... but it?s a true statement. And we?re talking results here, not the mitigating circumstances of how we or the ref played.
Shaun Sparke
16 Posted 09/12/2007 at 22:51:39
16 Posted 09/12/2007 at 22:51:39
Shit, I have just realised that Arsenal must be totally shite! As they have only beaten teams below them this season. Sometimes some of you really do need to cheer up a bit.
Brendan McLaughlin
17 Posted 09/12/2007 at 23:18:40
17 Posted 09/12/2007 at 23:18:40
Is this it? We?ve had many and varied criticism?s levelled at David Moyes over the past few seasons. We?ve seen them trotted out on numerous occasions ?
?dithers in the transfer market?
?doesn?t like flair players?
?always seeks to defend rather than extend a lead?
?ex-central defender = negative approach?
?shouts & gesticulates at the players from the touchline and puts them off?
?has red hair?
?is Scottish?
?has red hair & is Scottish?
Now we are down to ?We can?t beat a team above us?. Firstly this is completely ridiculous as we have beaten many of the teams above us, although admittedly not so far this season, but it?s only a matter of time! Secondly, isn?t it fantastic that the Moyes detractors are grasping at such straws to in a vain attempt to justify their lack of faith in a man who has done so much to put Everton back at the business end of the premiership.
?dithers in the transfer market?
?doesn?t like flair players?
?always seeks to defend rather than extend a lead?
?ex-central defender = negative approach?
?shouts & gesticulates at the players from the touchline and puts them off?
?has red hair?
?is Scottish?
?has red hair & is Scottish?
Now we are down to ?We can?t beat a team above us?. Firstly this is completely ridiculous as we have beaten many of the teams above us, although admittedly not so far this season, but it?s only a matter of time! Secondly, isn?t it fantastic that the Moyes detractors are grasping at such straws to in a vain attempt to justify their lack of faith in a man who has done so much to put Everton back at the business end of the premiership.
Shaun Sparke
18 Posted 09/12/2007 at 23:43:52
18 Posted 09/12/2007 at 23:43:52
Brendan, If I hadn’t been so preoccupied in writing a sarcasic reply, I could have said exactly the same as you. You have hit the nail on the head. However, I do share some of the concerns of the yet to be convinced brigade. I want us to start putting in these runs on a more consistent basis we cant afford to let it slip, if we loose a game then, as all good teams do, we must make sure it is a while before we loose the next one.
I am sure that we lost four on the trot before this recent run of form. Moyes must ensure that we do not let this happen again. If he does this then I think even the most ardent of sceptics will happily admit to being wrong about the man.
I am sure that we lost four on the trot before this recent run of form. Moyes must ensure that we do not let this happen again. If he does this then I think even the most ardent of sceptics will happily admit to being wrong about the man.
Brendan McLaughlin
19 Posted 10/12/2007 at 00:35:49
19 Posted 10/12/2007 at 00:35:49
Exactly Shaun if we do lose a game we learn from it and try to ensure that we don’t lose another one for quite some time. We don’t, as the original post suggests, use it as another stick with which to beat Moyes.
Ron Wilmington
20 Posted 10/12/2007 at 01:05:53
20 Posted 10/12/2007 at 01:05:53
Brendan, that was a classic post, definitely Post of the Month material :-)
Moyes is doing a heck of a job considering the financial constraints. I also was at the Fulham game in 1963 and the clincher against West Brom in 1970. I remember when we bought the best full back in the country (Ray Wilson), the best midfielder (Tony Kay), the England centre forward (Fred Pickering) and the MVP from the World Cup Final (Alan Ball). Alas John Moores no longer owns the team.
Yes, we haven’t beaten anybody above us yet but on a positive note only Arsenal have scored more goals in the premiership. We’re tied with Man Utd on 29.
Moyes is doing a heck of a job considering the financial constraints. I also was at the Fulham game in 1963 and the clincher against West Brom in 1970. I remember when we bought the best full back in the country (Ray Wilson), the best midfielder (Tony Kay), the England centre forward (Fred Pickering) and the MVP from the World Cup Final (Alan Ball). Alas John Moores no longer owns the team.
Yes, we haven’t beaten anybody above us yet but on a positive note only Arsenal have scored more goals in the premiership. We’re tied with Man Utd on 29.
David Barks
21 Posted 10/12/2007 at 04:53:45
21 Posted 10/12/2007 at 04:53:45
Talk about moving the goal posts. It’s always something new that Moyes has to prove to you people. He can’t do this, can’t do that. He’ll be judged on this, judged on that. We’ve won 8 out of 10 games with the only blemishes being two draws at Chelsea and at Pompey who just demolished Villa. We have not given up a goal in three games, but scored 11 goals in our last 4. You say Sunderland are shite, well who else beat them 7-1. Chelsea just scrapped out a 2-0 win against them Saturday. Oh, and that draw against Chelsea at the Bridge was without Arteta. We’ll lose a game eventually as all things come to an end, and the sack Moyes brigade will be right back in action. Here’s a funny one though, where the hell has Tony Marsh been this whole time. The team does fantastic and he’s nowhere to be seen. Typical.
Nick Xenos
22 Posted 10/12/2007 at 06:08:19
22 Posted 10/12/2007 at 06:08:19
John, I can’t see how beating West Ham would make ’the football world stand up and take notice’. It’s not as if the Hammers are world beaters! In fact, I’ve seen them play a few times this season and they are nothing special. I think we can over run them in midfield as Parker looks underdone after a long lay off and Solano + Mullins are not great. The only players we should really keep an eye on is Etherington and Ashton who looks to be in good touch. I think they have more to worry about than us.
Marcus Dawson
23 Posted 10/12/2007 at 09:59:05
23 Posted 10/12/2007 at 09:59:05
I think we have our best team in a long time, the result at West Ham will not define our season and to suggest it will is plain stupid. Moyes had a plan when he came here, crucially he?s been given time and support to deliver and we?re starting to see real progress. No one?s getting carried away, we?re moving in the right direction and the football?s getting better, cheer up and get real.
Peter Eastoe
24 Posted 10/12/2007 at 10:23:34
24 Posted 10/12/2007 at 10:23:34
Oh Dear My Hardman...was that a poke at me...your appeal to Michael to ban anyone accusing a blue of being a red !
I think others on here must have suspected a wind up -not necessarily from a red- when you savaged the ’Moyes apologists....living in a dream world’.
My first reaction was ’WTF!!!...is this guy for real....nah...must be a wind up’.
Talk about the glass half empty brigade !
I think others on here must have suspected a wind up -not necessarily from a red- when you savaged the ’Moyes apologists....living in a dream world’.
My first reaction was ’WTF!!!...is this guy for real....nah...must be a wind up’.
Talk about the glass half empty brigade !
Declan Brown
25 Posted 10/12/2007 at 11:46:28
25 Posted 10/12/2007 at 11:46:28
I hear what you’re saying in terms of beating the ’Top 4’ teams. Here’s a few facts:
Under Benitez Liverpool haven’t scored a Premier League goal against Man Utd yet, haven’t scored a league goal at Stamford Bridge, their record against Arsenal is pretty poor too, they get a hammering from Arsenal at least once a season, 3 times last season!
But you’re right, we have to beat these teams to be up there, we’re now at the stage where they find us hard to beat, we’ve beaten arsenal, liverpool, Utd and chelsea under Moyes, just not consistently enough. He has it in him to turn those games into a Cup Final atmosphere (especially at Goodison).
What i’ve seen of Everton since the Uefa Cup 1st round first leg has been the most encouraging since the days of Big Joe Royle. That was 10 years ago!
Under Benitez Liverpool haven’t scored a Premier League goal against Man Utd yet, haven’t scored a league goal at Stamford Bridge, their record against Arsenal is pretty poor too, they get a hammering from Arsenal at least once a season, 3 times last season!
But you’re right, we have to beat these teams to be up there, we’re now at the stage where they find us hard to beat, we’ve beaten arsenal, liverpool, Utd and chelsea under Moyes, just not consistently enough. He has it in him to turn those games into a Cup Final atmosphere (especially at Goodison).
What i’ve seen of Everton since the Uefa Cup 1st round first leg has been the most encouraging since the days of Big Joe Royle. That was 10 years ago!
Barry Earley
26 Posted 11/12/2007 at 00:35:30
26 Posted 11/12/2007 at 00:35:30
Just to follow logic expressed here in recent days - Everton have not beaten anyone above them in the league this season therefore the season is poor so far!
BUT also...........
MAN UTD have not beaten anyone above them in the league this season therefore the season is poor so far! Chelsea have not beaten anyone above them in the league this season therefore the season is poor so far! Liverpool have not beaten anyone above them in the league this season therefore the season is poor so far! Portsmouth have not beaten anyone above them in the league this season therefore the season is poor so far!
Michael Kenrick
27 Posted 11/12/2007 at 01:23:52
27 Posted 11/12/2007 at 01:23:52
Okay, I guess I should have said "we haven?t beaten any teams in the top half of the table". Then some of you smartarses would have come back with "We?re in the top half of the table ? How can we beat ourselves?" Yea right...
And, Barry, why is it necessary to make false statements? Who said it was a poor season because of that? What I said was "And until we start notching up those wins, be it in cup or League, we will not be making the real progress against our peers (and betters!) that everyone is crowing about."
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against a team above us[Oops!] at a crucial time in a competition we are determined to do well in for once.The fixture list has indeed been relatively kind (although in reality, it is what it is) and in the past we have stumbled no matter who the opposition, so the current run, in and of itself, is massively impressive. And I am particularly pleased that we have slain another two albatrosses during it: getting the first Big Win and getting just the second Hat-Trick under David Moyes.
Despite the warn glow currently, there is a nagging doubt in my mind over our proven inability to beat anyone above us in the table. Yes, people will crow this is being 'negative' but it is an inescapable fact that I did not invent. And until we start notching up those wins, be it in cup or League, we will not be making the real progress against our peers (and betters!) that everyone is crowing about.