ToffeeWeb - Season 2007-08

The Mail Bag

Are Everton a Big Club?

I am a Boro fan. I have a few mates who are Everton fans and they seem to think Everton are a big club, but looking at the attendances for the Fulham game, only 32,000 went and considering you due to move into a 60,000 seater stadium, the question is will you ever fill it?

Also my friends think Everton are a bigger club than Boro! but apart from the Big four Boro are the most successful team in England over the past ten years with a Uefa Cup Final, League Cup Winner and two F.A Cup Semi finals! What do you think?

[Editorial note: We've passed this over once already but Craig's decision to resubmit his letter has tempted us into airing it, if only to have a little fun and show him the error of his ways. BUT, keep it civil, please!]

Craig Renwick, Darlington Posted 12/12/2007 at 04:59:30

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Comments

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Lyndon Lloyd
Editorial Team
1 Posted 12/12/2007 at 07:14:47

I suppose it all depends on your definition of what a "Big Club" is, Craig... although I think by most metrics, Everton qualify. History? Latent support? Honours and trophies won? Attendances? Spending power?

I think our place at the top of the All-Time Top Flight Table thanks to spending 104 of our 108 league seasons in the top division... compared to Boro?s 58... and the fourth biggest trophy haul in English football history — including 9 league titles and 5 FA Cups — ought to say enough in answer to your question.

Now, you?ll no doubt say that most of those achievements occurred in the past and most of your comparisons are based on recent history... but soon enough that will be distant history as well so it?s only when you take a club?s record as a whole that you can really judge "bigness". The past 10 years that you revel in are just a fraction of time compared to the big picture and will be considerably undermined if you are relegated this year... again!

Even if you only want to talk about the era since Sky invented football in 1992, the last club outside the so-called "Big Four" to win the FA Cup was Everton; the last club outside the "Big Four" to have finished in a Champions League-qualifying position was, yes, Everton.

And those attendances you mock have been consistently high despite two brushes with relegation in the 1990s and one of the worst periods in our history overall. I see that now that the likes of Ravenelli and Jouninho aren?t sucking the Riverside coffers dry, there are a LOT of empty red seats over your way these days. Big club?

I could go on and on and on but you get my point and I?m sure many of my Blue brethren will take up the baton below. Please keep it civil! This is an easy argument to win without resorting to petty abuse, folks! If it gets out of hand, we?ll close the thread and probably delete it... like we did the first time Craig posted this submission!

Jay Campbell
2 Posted 12/12/2007 at 07:38:22

Craig Boro have done really well the last ten years you are right but Everton are far bigger and by a long way.

One thing you have over us is you have a chairman with money,vision and who appears to be a man of his word. Wish he was an Everton fan.

Gavin G
3 Posted 12/12/2007 at 07:34:52

Hi Lyndon...

Top drawer and spot on!!!

Mark Griffiths
4 Posted 12/12/2007 at 07:47:48

Shall we ask Yakubu who he thinks is the bigger team?

Lee Mather
5 Posted 12/12/2007 at 07:45:00

This post made me laugh initially, but then it’s not as daft as you first think, if I wanted to hear a comparision between our club and say, Newcastle for arguments sake I can do a lot worse than asking the people on the Newcastle fansites their opinion and sifting out the abuseive comments. (incidentally none so far on this site, well done guys!)

Lyndon covered most of the points quite eloquently so I see no reason to duplicate them again.

Just please, don’t mention our stadium move...

Kevin Sparke
6 Posted 12/12/2007 at 07:50:49

Middlesbrough are a bigger club than Everton - fact!

Middlesbrough have 13 letters in their name and Everton only have 7.

However, in terms of history, tradition, fanbase, trophy haul, great ex players, great current players - we win hands down.

Both Newcastle United and Sunderland are bigger than Boro - and were bigger than both of them.

Sorry Craig - you lose

Phil deering
7 Posted 12/12/2007 at 08:25:04

I KNOW THIS IDIOT AND A. HE HAS NEVER BEEN TO A GAME IN HIS LIFE. AND B. HIS CLUB HAVE BEEN BANKRUPT TWICE IN THEIR HISTORY WHO CONTINUEOUSLY YOYO FROM DIV 1 TO THE TOP FLIGHT WHEN YOUR IN EUROPE TRY WINNING SOMETHING SPOTTY OH AND ALL THE RONALDINHOS IN THE WORLD COULD NEVER SAVE YOUR ASS THIS YEAR

PHIL DEERING
8 Posted 12/12/2007 at 08:32:32

OH AND FOR THE RECORD WHEN IS THAT IDIOT SOUTHGATE GETTIN THE ENGLAND JOB I HEAR GRAEME SOUNESS IS INTERESTED IN MANAGING YOUR SHOWER OF S...T!

patty
9 Posted 12/12/2007 at 08:58:11

Why do outsiders feel they have to come on to our web-sites to make comments against our wonderful Club? Shows a lack of disrespect and does Craig really believe Boro are a bigger Club...history tells all not just the last few years. The way you are playing this season, matey, I wouldn’t boast if I were you!!

Andy Lloyd
10 Posted 12/12/2007 at 08:57:17

Sorry, who are Middlesbrough exactly? Ive never heard of them....!

Dan
11 Posted 12/12/2007 at 08:56:56

Boro ha ha ha ha.

I’ve seen bigger crowds at my local 5 a side venue. Lets face it we haven’t won much recently but all Boro have ever won is a league cup AKA the mickey mouse cup. Plus cup runs count for nothing if you end up finishing in the bottom half. Boro will always be a feeder club for teh rest of the premiership. Theyshould just feel lucky to even be in the premiership.

Dan Johnson
12 Posted 12/12/2007 at 08:56:56

Boro ha ha ha ha.

I?ve seen bigger crowds at my local 5 a side venue. Lets face it we haven?t won much recently but all Boro have ever won is a league cup AKA the mickey mouse cup. Plus cup runs count for nothing if you end up finishing in the bottom half. Boro will always be a feeder club for teh rest of the premiership. Theyshould just feel lucky to even be in the premiership.

Albert Ravey
13 Posted 12/12/2007 at 08:37:36

Oh well, the abuse has started, but I’ll try to keep it civil again. I think that Boro probably have (or have had recently) a lot more money than Everton, but have failed to do much with it other than bring in some big name flops (remember Ravanelli? - scored loads of goals but divided the dressing room and left once the inevitable relegation happened). Boro did make it to the UEFA cup final, but they are a long way from qualifying for that competition in the near future, unlike Everton. As for attendance, Everton’s has been consistent and I suspect will be even higher once we are in a bigger stadium (wherever that ends up). Finally, I know history seems to mean less to you than us, but being founder members of the football league is something we’ll always have over the "Big Four" as well as yourselves. I’m afraid less supporters of clubs other than Boro or Everton would consider Boro a big club than would consider Everton one. Sorry, no way.

James Crolla
14 Posted 12/12/2007 at 09:11:57

History shows Everton to be a very big club. However, things move on and I would class Everton along with Spurs, Newcastle and maybe West Ham, as clubs with the potential to be massive, but not quite there at this time. Boro, on the other hand, I would class with teams like Wigan, Bolton, Fulham etc. All are small clubs, with a low fan bases. All these teams will probably be relegated sometime soon and yo-yo between 2 or 3 divisions.

Dan McKie
15 Posted 12/12/2007 at 09:34:39

I was impressed when I went to boro last time to watch the blues, your watching the game and all you notice is the sea of red, nothing to do with fans tho, it was just empty red seat after empty red seat! Awful

phil roberts
16 Posted 12/12/2007 at 10:35:41

Dan - this trophy that they won... this mickey mouse cup.... is that the same one where we are in the quarter final tonight and which we are all hoping that we can get to win it?

We all want silverware at GP and I will take a win in the Carling Cup (especially as it will get us back in the UEFA cup next year) but all it is to you is the mickey mouse cup. I’ll ring Moyes and the boys and tell them not to bother - our supporters don’t want it

Alex May
17 Posted 12/12/2007 at 10:37:03

Not sure exactly why I’m dignifying this with a response.

I didn’t realise that losing made you a big club!

List Middlesbrough’s trophies prior to the League Cup win (given to them courtesy of a Mike Riley howler). Er, that’ll be none then.

Everton’s gate against lowly Fulham was 6,000 more than ’Boro’s against Arsenal.

In fact, Middlesbrough are the best example of what is wrong with moving to a ground that is too big. Those thousands upon thousands of empty seats do look hideous don’t they.

Smog gets in your eyes, and also in your brain, it would seem.

Shaun Kinnair
18 Posted 12/12/2007 at 10:47:10

Attendances.

Season 2007.
Everton 36358
Boro 26398

9960 More Fans than Boro with a third of season gone.
-----

Season 2006
Everton 36739
Boro 27730

9009 More fans than Boro
-----

Season 2005
Everton 36860
Boro 28463

8397 More fans than Boro
-----

Season 2004
Everton 36834
Boro 32012

4882 More fans than Boro
-----
Season 2004
Everton 38837
Boro 30398

8439 More fans than Boro
-----

Season 2003
Everton 38481
Boro 31025

7456 More fans than Boro
-----

Boro Honours.
Domestic.
Football League (old division before Championship) Second Division.
Champions 1926?27, 1928?29, 1973?74, 1994?95; runners up 1901?02, 1991?92, 1997?98.

Football League (old division) Third Division.
Runners up 1966?67, 1986?87

League Cup.
Winners 2004; runners up 1997, 1998

FA Cup
Runners up 1997

UEFA Cup
Runners Up 2005-06

Everton Honours
Founder Member of the Football League: 1888.
Founder Member of the FA Premier League: 1992.

Division 1 Champions: 1890-91, 1914-15, 1927-28, 1931-32, 1938-39, 1962-63, 1969-70, 1984-85, 1986-87.
Division 1 Runners-Up: 1889-90, 1894-95, 1901-02, 1904-05, 1908-09, 1911-12, 1985-86.

Division 2 Champions: 1930-31.
Division 2 Runners-Up:1953-54.
FA Cup Winners: 1906, 1933, 1966, 1984, 1995.
FA Cup Runners-Up: 1893, 1897, 1907, 1968, 1985, 1986, 1989.
Charity Shield Winners: 1928, 1932, 1963, 1970, 1984, 1985, 1987, 1995,
Charity Shield Shared: 1986.
League Cup Runners-Up: 1976-77, 1983-84.
European Cup-Winners? Cup Winners: 1984-85.

FA Youth Cup Winners: 1965, 1984, 1998.

NO WHO?S THE BIGGER CLUB.... YOU DECIDE!!

david mckenna
19 Posted 12/12/2007 at 11:18:23

wot is this fool talking about?
i think you will find that everton fans are one of the best set of supporters in engalnd (just ask anyone who knows anything about football) and im sure 32 thousand is more than boro had against arsenal on sunday.

you actually have to win a trophy for it to be a success so im affraid that 2 semi finals and a final does not make you more succesful than somebody. but it you think it does then im sure youll agree that everton qualifying for the champions league with a tiny squad and marcus bent upfront on his own makes us more succesful than boro.

we have a tremendous fan base, history, past players (ball, dixie dean etc...), current players (jonson, vaughaun, howard , anichebe, cahil , arteta, baines , lescott, pienar, yobo), we’ve been in the top flight more longer than anyone and i can guarantee that u’ll find find a lot more trophies in our cabinet than most english teams especailly boro.

were are everton likely to finish this season ? top 6 ? maybe 4th if we are lucky ? wot about boro ? bottom 6.

who thre f**k are boro ?

Lee Spargo
20 Posted 12/12/2007 at 11:55:11

I cant beleive what I’m reading here.

Is this idiot for real or is this a wind up?

How old is he? 15?

Alex May
21 Posted 12/12/2007 at 12:06:27

Everton’s great iconic figure is William Ralph Dean (with a fine list to follow). ’Boro’s is Bernie Slavin.

Close thread.

Martin Berry
22 Posted 12/12/2007 at 12:00:19

You don?t have to have a full trophy cabinet to be a ?big? club nowadays. All you need is the support of bias media and it doesn?t matter how crap you are, just look at Newcastle. If we had the same media coverage as the so called big four (plus NUFC) peoples perceptions of Everton would be different and maybe we may have found new investment etc. However to compare us with Middlesbrough is a fucking joke!!.

Carl Rimmer
23 Posted 12/12/2007 at 12:12:47

Alex. I think you will find that George Camsell is actually Boro’s all time great with 59 goals in a season compared to our great Dixie’s 60.

Having said that Boro never have or will be a Big Club.

Jack Calvert
24 Posted 12/12/2007 at 12:15:24

One reason you have to consider with efc crowds is that we have a large number of wooden seats and seats with obscured views. In the run up to chrimbo, lousy weather and second rate site who we should beat comfortably with one leg tied behind each of the palyers back (sorry fulham but its true) yeah 1 or 2 may give it a miss. Also according to Stuart Hall on Five Live, he claimed that only 200 - yes two HUNDRED! - fulham fans came up. Now i dont know what efc’s official position on away tickets are ie did fulham only request 200 or bought 3000 and didnt return all the ones not sold but that helped to bring the crowd down - not that we rely on away supporters to fill it.
ps how many did boro get in their uefa cup matches especially in the early rounds? i bet they werent sell outs

Robbie Shields
25 Posted 12/12/2007 at 12:14:53

All this Big Club business makes me laugh. I think it was Rodney Marsh who stated all this saying Everton aren’t a big club anymore because we haven’t won anything for years, this beggars belief.

Why can’t people make the distinction between Big and Successful (Both currently and Historically).

We are not currently successful (As we haven’t won anything for 12 years), however we still average 36,000 in a stadium which has many thousands of obstructed seats, therefore we are a big club because of our support.

If a team had 200,000 supporters at every match but won nothing, they would still be BIG!

If a team had 1,000 supporters at every match but won everything, they would be a small club, but SUCCESSFUL.

This aint rocket science.

Tom Hughes
26 Posted 12/12/2007 at 12:34:07

Carl,
Wasn’t George Camsell’s goal haul in the 2nd Div though? Even Steve Bull managed 50 in the 2nd league.

Carl Rimmer
27 Posted 12/12/2007 at 12:50:02

Tom,

I think it was in the old 2nd division but I think that would make him more of a great than Bernie Slaven?

Was Steve Bull’s 50 goals all in the league?

Tom Hughes
28 Posted 12/12/2007 at 12:47:55

Everton building a 50,000 seater is probably no bigger a deal than Boro building a 30k seater in the 90’s when they had only averaged just over 5,000 per game only 10 years earlier in the mid 80’s.... We haven’t had crowds that small since we were playing Bootle in league games.

Allan Hobbs
29 Posted 12/12/2007 at 12:48:18

Who cares?? Its all very petty this argument. What does it matter whetther WE think we’re a big club and other people dont? I couldnt care less what peoples opinions are on these matters. It doesnt make the slightest bit of difference and makes us look pretty sad/petty arguing the toss.

Carl Rimmer
30 Posted 12/12/2007 at 12:53:34

Tom,

I’ve just checked Wiki and it says Bull scored 52 goals in all comps, 37 in the league in Division 4.

Boro are still cack though.

Phil Roberts
31 Posted 12/12/2007 at 13:30:29

And just one last comment on the number of people watching Fulham.

This was 3 days after 39,400 had turned out to watch them play a European match. So that is 71000 through the doors of Goodison in just 4 days.

Craig, are you coming back to the site to read all these...... or have you gone back to your own site with the other two Boro supporters?

Brent Holyrood
32 Posted 12/12/2007 at 13:29:34

Nobody has mentioned the fact that we are the only english club to host a world cup semi-final

Chris Jones (Wakefield)
33 Posted 12/12/2007 at 13:13:06

I had similar conversations about five years ago with a Leeds fan who argued his club were bigger than ours. Wonder what he’d say now?

When people like Craig ask questions of the sort he has, it merely shows how little he knows of football outside his own back yard.

By objective standards Everton are not a big club. They are a massive club. Our history and our legends show that.

How many clubs can rival our pedigree which includes, inter alia, having hosted a World Cup semi-final, having a club overseas named in our honour, involvement in one of the world’s best known Derby games, involvement in the most played league fixture in football history (EFC vs Aston Villa), involvement in circa 20 FA Cup semi finals, having played more top flight games than ANY other club, having had a player that Babe Ruth came to watch (’Dixie’), featuring in a BBC Play For Today (’The Golden Vision’), having the World’s first purpose built football stadium, and on, and on, and on ....

The only interesting thing I know about ’Boro is that they succeeded an earlier club from their city called Ironopolis!

Mind you, Middlesboro seem to have more Internet Trolls than we do!

Evelyn Mason
34 Posted 12/12/2007 at 13:50:21

We are a middle sized club.

Not big. Not small.

Just happily going our way looking for that elusive ray of sunshine.

Just remember its not 1985 anymore.

Seamus Murphy
35 Posted 12/12/2007 at 13:46:06

Kopite alert. If not my argument to you is - we signed your best player. Do you think Arteta would join Boro? Think not.

John Lloyd
36 Posted 12/12/2007 at 14:06:22

So Craig, did you get that.

Remove this garbage thread & lets talk about something worth a debate.

I agree... This is a perfect example of the shit we would normally not publish and I was a little surprised Lyndon went with it , to be honest. Enough already! — Michael Kenrick

Erm, I think "shit" is a bit of an exaggeration. Had it been a genuine submission and not a wind-up, it's actually a valid question by a mis-guided victim of the Sky era's focus on the here and now. And I don't think we should be afraid to engage opposition fans if they appear to be offering a genuine discussion point.

And even if you ignore the 'Boro comparison, the question of whether or not we're still a "big club" is something some Evertonians have pondered in recent years— Lyndon

Ian McDowell
37 Posted 12/12/2007 at 13:59:45

This is a wind up fellas, I know the lad who submitted this post and it was purely done to wind us blues up. We are currently serving away with the armed forces, and a few mancs from wales and kopites from down south seem to want to come on to your wonderful website and wind us blues up (like the DVD post about us beating Sunderland). Makes you wonder why they don?t go on there own website doesn?t it. So please don?t give these twats the satisfaction of letting them get under your skin.