Lee,
I think someone started a similar thread a few days ago, and I remember there was a response that before we beat them 2-0, West Ham was in top 10. Maybe you can also come out with an analysis telling us how many points we got from playing the "THEN" top 10 team instead of looking at the place on the table as of NOW, if you have the time. Thanks.

By the way, I would prefer we take all the points against the lower teams and lose to the top three instead of getting a point at Old Trafford but lose to Fulham and draw with Wigan. We all know (I am sure the optimists know as well) that at the moment we are still not a title contender and still not a team that is confident of European qualification year in year out.

Lee, for me it is quite simple really, the more time you spend defending and less attacking the more likely you are to get beat, especially against quality opposition that can take chances.

The performances have really improved over the last couple of months with far less hoofball, but I would agree mostly with what David Jones’s assessment was. We have played some good sides in that time and they all created good chances against us (In some games more clearcut chances than we created), for the most part though they contrived not to take the chances or Howard made excellent saves. We’ve had a bit of luck but generally we have been playing a lot better and certainly deserved a bit of good fortune, however it doesn’t last forever.

I said before the United game that this would be the first real test of our current strategy and unfortunately it didn’t quite work out. I listened to the match on Radio 5 and it sounded like the previous matches against United, i.e. all the possession to United and occassionally Everton break away and get a half chance. If you play like that against quality opposition you’ll get beat 9 times out of 10 and that’s why we haven’t won at United for 15 years.

Against good teams that hold the ball better, spend more time attacking us than we do them and with quality finishers we are always going to struggle. My hope is that Moyes manages to get the final piece of the jigsaw and gets a dynamic midfield dynamo to knit the whole team together and make Everton the team attacking more often than the opposition. Until then I think we’ll always be just outside the top 4, but we’re not far away.

Us Evertonians lucky enough to be around during the 80’s witnessed a team that controlled almost all the games we played through the midfield, spent most of the time attacking and created far more chances than the opposition. I think this is what David Jones was comparing the current Everton team against, so for those not fortunate enough to have witnessed it, David’s post may have seemed overly pessimistic, I don’t think it was.

The current team, whilst playing far better than any other in the last 10 years or so still needs improving in central midfield if it is to start competing seriously and then beating the top 6 teams on a regular basis.

We’re still improving and this isn’t supposed to be a negative post or a knee jerk reaction to losing against United (Which I’m afraid to say I was expecting). We nearly got a superb draw but if we defend more than we attack we can’t complain too much about being unlucky or hard done by when we get beat.

Hopefully the boys don’t lose confidence and revert to hoofball but instead continue to play the better football we have been seeing of late and come January Moyes gets that illusive midfield gem I’m after, someone in the mold of Stevie G La across the park. If he does then I feel we’ll have a team genuinely capable of breaking into the top 4.

Daniel,

Thats my worry, it isn’t just the top 3 we have failed to beat though. This season we have also just got 2 points from our 4 matches between teams around the UEFA Cup spots ie Liverpool, Pompey, Villa and Blackburn.

Robbie,

Did you get down to Upton Park for the Cup game? How did you find the trip back to glorious Norfolk??!! I have never, ever, driven in fog like that before! Spent a 10 mile stint on the M11 doing 30mph!

We were robbed against the shite. We’ve not played Arsenal yet or City. I expect us to beat Villa and Portsmouth at home. I think we’re nowhere near Man U yet but we’re doing alright.

Lee, yes I made it down to Upton Park for the Cup game, what a night! The away support as usual was superb and my son had his first taste of an Evertonian Quarter final, can’t wait for the semi’s. Fog wasn’t too bad for us, we must have got away a little earlier than you.

Alan, we may have been robbed against the shite BUT again they created more chances than us and had more possession. The more you attack teams the more luck comes your way. We had had a huge slice of luck to go into the lead remember, in the first half we had 0 shots against them but were winning through a rediculous own goal. I actually don’t think we are a million miles away from United, just one truely world class midfielder........so actually..... you’re probably right, we are nowhere near United......... as these don’t grow on trees!:)

Lee, I’m not really sure what your concerns are. According to your figures we have taken 25% of the points available from our matches against the top 10 & a whopping 80% of those available from the bottom 10.

If we replicate this for the rest of the season this should leave us in 5/6th place. And as you alluded to in your title but didn’t actually mention in your post, our cup form is immensely improved this year.

If you look back to the season we came 4th, we didn’t do that well against the top ten, but we were ruthless, home and away, against the bottom 10.

I agree that we need to be better against the top 4 if we are to challenge consistently for a Champions League spot. But we are still a couple of players away from having a big enough squad to cover injuries. Moyes has focused on quality players, but we are still a few bodies short.

Lets wait until we play the likes of Villa, Portsmouth, West ham, Blackburn and Man city at home before we start all this negativity again.

People are never happy. We have beat what has been put infront of us and thats all you can do. Yes we lost to the likes of Liverpool, Villa and Newcastle earlier in the season but at that moment in time we where struggling. Now we have found the right system and the right players which gives us the best possible chance of winnig games. We’ve stopped playing Neville in midfield and are now playing with as much creative and attacking players as possible.

All this has shown me how much we have improved. I remeber sitting throught the Blackburn game earlier this season and continually seeing the likes of Yobo, Hibbert and Neville hoofing the ball to AJ and McFadden. Now we are actually starting to play joined up stuff and play to our strengths. Its not Arsenal or Man utd football and people must realise that were not good enough to play like that but it is an improvement and I’m happy.

Brendan, remember though that 3 of them 6 points from the top 10 teams were from a win at West Ham who are in 10th, and I think possibly bottom half when we played them. 3 points from a poss 21 against teams in top 9 suddenly makes it look much less of an achievement.

As for the cup run, I said that "at the moment and our cup form has been excellent", so I totally agree with you there.

I think you are wrong, Conner: We ARE good enough to beat them. We just lack the confidence and the belief and the committment to carry it through. We are still being over-awed by them, treating them with too much respect (and then there is the Phil Neville factor...). We need to get over this.

I know this is being pedantic, but as West Ham are now 11th due to Newcastles draw, it is now 3 points from a poss 24 v teams in top half and 27 points from 30 v teams in bottom half.

Just hope we do Arsenal at Goodison like we know we can do and you can all tell me to shove this theory up my arse :)

there are 28 matches to play without the top 5 teams included that makes 28 x 3 = 84 points..sounds good to me.

Both Connor Rohrer and Brendam McLaughlin make the same mistake that all the Moyes apologists make. They start from the assumption that 5th place is acceptable. Surely our history demands that 5th place should be the mininmum we aspire to. The evidence suggests we won’t beat Arsenal or Chelsea in the semi final and that once again, even though we have improved (it would be nearly impossible not to improve on ’dire’), we’ll end up with nothing. This is the concern of those whose motto is NSNO.

What the hell are you talking about Eric Hardman? Labelling Connor, Brendan and unmentioned others as ’apologists who assume 5th place is acceptable’. Neither Connor nor Brendan say any such thing.

Or can we label you an a closet apologist because you claim ’the evidence suggests we won?t beat Arsenal or Chelsea in the semi final and that we?ll end up with nothing.’

What a nonsensical, self-contradictory post you make...

Paul, we weren’t overawed at all. We got stuck in, got in there faces, limited them to few chances and hit them on the counter attack.

In the end we where beaten by a small detail but small details decide matches. Pienaar made a mistake which was stupid and clumsy and it had nothing to do with how the team performed as a whole. Would you be saying the same thing if it had ended 1-1? No you wouldn’t.

A Moyes apologist is someone who cannot remember when Everton had a proper team so excuse our inconsistent performances for 5 years under Moyes by repeating how much better being in the top half is compared to the previous regime. Brendan McLaughlin clearly implies that we should not be concerned if we finish in 5th or 6th place. Connor Rohrer says he’s happy even though in his words ’we’re not good enough to play like ’ Man Utd or Arsenal.
Since the highest placed team we’ve beaten this season is West Ham I think it’s fair to say ’the evidence suggests we won’t beat Arsenal or Chelsea.
I believe no-one should be content until we are good enough to play like Man Utd and Arsenal.

Eric Hardman, whats wrong with finishing 5th? Is that no progress? Yes it is and in a league as competitive as ours it would be a good position to finish. We dont have the luxury to go out and spend 40 million like a number of teams in our league so it is acceptable in my book.

Whats our history got to do with todays football.......Fuck all. Your problem is you stuck in the past. You feel because we have had success in the past that we have to have it now but that is just not the case. Time moves on and so does football and we are sadly not as good as we where in the 80s. We had our blip in the 90s and finally things are looking up.

You may call Moyes’s reign dire but its the best since Howard Kendall. And lets be honest we aren’t good enough to play like Arsenal or Man utd. We just dont have the players or the money that these teams have which generally guarantee’s success.

I’m a realist and I am happy with how things are going at the moment. We have just gone on a 13 game unbeaten run, where 6th in the league and where progressing well in the Uefa cup.

Yet more lazy stereotyping from you Eric, with a pitiful attempt at trying to define what an ?apologist? is. You leap to the conclusion that any one who supports the manager and sees continued progress under his tenure is someone who accepts mediocrity. Why does one follow the other? And you continue to be self-contradictory by once again repeating that we aren?t good enough to beat the likes of Arsenal, Chelsea and United? so by your own reckoning something like fifth place IS all we can realistically hope for. Come on out, Eric? it would appear you are indeed a closet apologist.

I have often criticised Moysey over his lack of a plan B ,But for all this we have not beat this team so we are not that good ect,first we had the big 3 .now its we have to beat the teams in the top ten,call me a old fossil but I thought beating any team in the league gets us three points and as long as we beat enough we qualify for Europe. I think we need to take a look at the team and decide have we improved I think so I hate hoofball,are we the finished article no we need a couple of players for the team and a couple of squad players this will take time because of the finances but come on give them credit they have restored a lot of pride and given us something to build on

Spot on Roy Coyne. Everyone knows where not the finished article and we do need players but people who fail to see the improvement are just being ignorant.

Eric Hardman,
I will certainly not be concerned if we finished 5th or 6th this season. I will be happy,not excited though. I will only be excited if we finished 4th again this season or next.
Be realistic, we are not good enough to challenge the top 3 YET, but we have certainly seen improvement. I was one of the Moyes critics last season when we played all the hoofball and I thought Moyes had taken us as far as he could. But the EVIDENCE this season suggest otherwise, Moyes as a manager has also learnt and improved.
And your evidence that we won’t beat Chelsea or Arsenal because we failed to beat other higher ranked teams is just ridiculous. How about this? Bolton didn’t manage to beat us, and we just lost to MU, so your evident must suggest that Bolton will surely lose to MU. But what is the fact? The result? The scoreline? If you are forgetful, then it’s 1-0 to Bolton. That’s why people say "the ball is round".
If someone who think that we have improved this season and was happy with our recent 13-match unbeaten run is a Moyes apologist, then how do you call a person who concede defeat even before the ball was kicked?

Lee, my mistake you did give our cup form a mention in your post but my point is that it deserves much more than a mention. I appreciate that I didn’t put that across in my post.

Eric, I really hope you got what you wanted for Christmas because you really need something to cheer you up!