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Murderers

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I have just read a contribution from another reader on another thread referring to Liverpool fans as 'murderers'. This is out of order as far as I am concerned. I'm not saying this as some armchair fan from elsewhere who doesn't appreciate the rivalry between both sets of fans - I'm from Old Swan and watch us all over. I'm as big a Blue as they come.

Referring to them like this does us no favours as fans, just like singing songs about Munich to Man United doesn't either. Gloating about tragedies such as Munich or Heysel shows a lack of class, and while I realise people have freedom of speech, surely the editors don't have to publish things like that?

Surely after the death of Rhys Jones, when they played Z-Cars at Anfield, can we not get back to a proper rivalry with them. I don't like Liverpool, and want to batter them every time we play them, but I also enjoy the banter with Liverpool fans, and don't appreciate this sort of vitriol. It is Christmas after all!

Note that the offending Comments were removed between the time that Danny's letter was submitted and subsequently published by Michael — Lyndon


Danny Broderick, London     Posted 25/12/2007 at 22:00:47

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Michael Kenrick
Well said, Danny. Unfortunately we do have our own mindless minority who will enjoy such "banter". They are seriously lacking in class but do you think telling them so is going to change tham? It's not our decision to publlish them ? more like our lack of diligence in deleting their garbage and banning them. But then the dicks will strat screaming about "freedom of speech"... I'm with you though....
David Barks
1   Posted 26/12/2007 at 15:25:54

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I totally agree with you. Someone posted a similar thing a couple of months ago and I couldn’t believe some of the arguments by people, it was disgusting and just shows how unbelievably ignorant some people can be. Well said.
Connor Rohrer
2   Posted 26/12/2007 at 18:23:41

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Its badly out of order. Evertonians seem to forget how we supported the Kopites after Hillsburough. I remember all the everton and Liverpool scarves together and it really brought Merseyside together. Its sad and it makes us look bitter aswell as giving us a bad reputation.

But saying that Liverpool fans are exactly the same. They shout Munich to Man utd fans. It all should stop.
James Byrne
3   Posted 26/12/2007 at 18:29:09

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The Heysel disaster will be remembered for the loss of 39 mostly Italians fans who had traveling to watch a game of football.

I don’t agree with the label of "Murderers" as it is incorrect and disturbing, although it would be interesting to know how the people who lost loved ones that night how they feel, even now after all this time. Would any of those families consider silently that Liverpool FC fans were "murderers" and if so could they be excused?.

Unfortunately for Liverpool FC and their fans the stigma of being responsible for what happened on the 29th May 1985 will never go away.
Alan Ryder
4   Posted 26/12/2007 at 18:59:14

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The chanting of ’murderers’ by the minority low life who come into the ground (I won’t call them Everton fans) shows lack of respect for the bereathed. They are not thinking of the fans & their families it’s just a way of winding up the Kopites. We used to be able to do it , first and foremost, with good humour while Bally & Co did the rest on the pitch. Ironically, with the change in our playing fortunes perhaps we can now concentrate on the good things which are coming out of our famous football club.
Merry Xmas to all decent Evertonians.


Simon Templeman
5   Posted 26/12/2007 at 19:16:34

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While I agree with the sentiments expressed, I have yet to meet a RS fan contrite enough to support your argument (own family members included) and until that time I await an apology for that night and the enforced absence of EFC and others in Europe.
Merry Christmas.
Keith Glazzard
6   Posted 26/12/2007 at 19:49:57

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A little while back I wanted to know a bit more about Bill Shankly’s dparture from LFC and his last few years. Various searches (wikipedia etc) seemed to say nothing, or worse - some sort of smokescreen, a rewriting of history going on.

So I went (boldly) where no intelligent life form ought to go, into RS fan/history sites. And there it all was - spin, cover-up, excuses ... lies? I don’t know, I was looking for facts, and you had to sort through a load of dross to get anywhere near a factual account (’well of cousrse we had to ban him from the training ground because’ .... etc).

I don’t want to go back into that mire to find out the semi-official line on Heysel. They blame the stadium don’t they?

Apology? - I suppose they must have done this to the families of dead Italians, I don’t know and its not my business. I don’t recall any such thing to the English clubs who were banned from Europe for five years. But that might have admitted culpability wouldn’t it? Not us mate, the stadium.

Know your history. And if you want to go from ground to ground shouting about your European glory, expect someone, even from a "small club" to remind you of the bit you would rather forget.

As for "murderers" on these pages - I think we should be able to do better than that. And if such comments are going to be censored, so be it. But it is censorship, and if we are better than redshite sites that gloss over the treatment they dished out to their saviour, we should be very clear about why it happens.
Tommy Gibbons
7   Posted 26/12/2007 at 20:39:41

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I?ve said it before and I?ll say it again.. the RS deserve every bit of bile we can throw their way!!, They wanted us banned from europe for as long as possible because they did?nt want us to steal a march on them in europe..They have never made an apology to anyone for THEIR actions in Heysel..They did try and get us kicked out of the champions league a couple of years ago, or do the apologists forget that?! I have some very good RS friends and I don?t dislike their support per se. However, the RS club have an underlying wish to destroy EFC by any means possible..
Just remember one fact.. if they hadn?t started the fighting at Heysel, there wouldn?t have been a tragedy...
Paul ONeill
8   Posted 26/12/2007 at 20:42:19

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The ’Murderers’ line is, in all seriousness terrible and does lack class. I’d further add that the Heysel Disaster was, by virtually all accounts I’ve heard, took place follwoing the behaviour of two mindless sets of hooligans from both clubs in a stadium that was unsafe. Furthermore, appalling behaviour on the continent by supporters of mainland European clubs to this day seems to go if not unpunished then certainly underpunished by UEFA, whilst in this country supporters and authorities seem to take the problem much more seriously. Look at Lazio and Roma. Look at the Leeds fans killed in 2001 in Turkey. Where the hell are UEFA? Can you imagine that happening in a Premier League ground now?
I will qualify all this though by saying that that it does stick in the craw of many Evertonians, myself included, when Liverpool fans gloat breathlessly about their numerous European triumphs and our dearth of them, considering two title winning Everton teams were denied the chance to compete in the late 80’s.
Gavin Ramejkis
9   Posted 26/12/2007 at 21:04:34

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I believe that neither the club or fans have even apologised for the most serious piece of crowd violence in recent history - not to the families of the 39 italians that died or the over 100 that were injured.

As Keith has quite correctly pointed out the gloss over and complete denial of this most heinous act is more appaling than name calling.
Guy Wilkinson
10   Posted 26/12/2007 at 20:52:15

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I think it is unreasonable to compare the Munich chants to the murderers chant. Munich was an accident for which Man U were in no way responsible. Heysel was manslaughter on a grand scale by our repellent neighbours.
The murderers chant is unclassy for sure, but an attempt to correct the airbrushing out of the facts that has been undertaken by the LFC, FA, UEFA and the media over the years.
It is notable that with a change of leadership of UEFA, that the veil has been lifted on the behaviour of Liverpool fans in the last couple of years nota bene the UEFA security report on the ECL final "worst fans in europe".

The actions of their fans set our club back a decade and that guts me. But that’s nothing compared to the upset that 39 Italian families must have felt and still feel.
Censor all you like, and rejoice in the the ongoing propogation of lies and rewriting of history. Antiquated stadium anyone??
James Byrne
11   Posted 26/12/2007 at 21:53:55

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Guy W,

Well said mate; great response.
Chris Hughes
12   Posted 26/12/2007 at 21:44:45

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The murdrers chant is a little... factually incorrect and so it can come across as, as it's been put, "lacking class" and that I can understand.

However, the reason I believe it's sung is to publically show their club isn?t whiter than white. Now Liverpool fans, as we know, are deluded. They have the best fans, the passion of the kop, every player is "the final piece of the jigsaw", every ref decision has to go their way or else they expect a public apology and they sing about all this mythical shite all day long.

However, In Hysel ? whether or not the final should have been held there is another matter... but it was ? 39 poeple died and Liverpool FC, as Kieth pointed out, just paint over it. It's never mentioned by them in any way and it's always "the staduim's fault". Point is that the walls simply didn't just fall over, they went over under force (deliberately or not) and it pisses me off no one has taken responsibility for this and the only time I've sensed an apologetic mood from them is during the Liverpool ? Juve clash in 2005 when they were drawn against them. Is that classy? I think not...

Even if we look at the Michael Shields incident, all the club were trying to do was to get him free ? again, if he?s innocent or guilty is another matter but I have strong opinions on this ? and almost everyone forgot that a Liverpool fan did drop a brick on someone's head, ruining the lads life forever really. Nicely painted over again, so it was THEM who looked like the hard-done-by party. Again, very classy.

So while "murderers" is probably the incorrect term, it's to show that there is a side to this club that the fans, media and club itself seem to attempt to hide to a point.
Tommy Jones
13   Posted 26/12/2007 at 21:50:11

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I was at the Hysel Stadium in 1985, been to Rotterdam, Wembley and the last few games of the season, jumped on a coach at the Rocket with a load of Blues and Kopites for the crack. I swear to god there was Kopites who wanted a kick off and revenge for Rome, that's the way it was then, we bunked into the Y-section and some of the lads coudn't believe their luck, an open end to have a kick off, full of ale and loads of Italians.

Take it which way you want but that is the truth: Scallies and loads of booze didn't mix, the reds charged at the Italians and most of the Juve fans were just normal fans, their Ultras were in the opposite side of the ground. No one wanted death that night but the boys who charged that night must put their hands up and take some blame for that awful night.

I know and they know it went wrong but to deny it is a shame on the the club. I seen it and to this day I will never forget that charge into the Juve fans. I don't know but imagine if that was Everton, I think our club would be history now and the likes of Man United and Liverpool would never allow us to forget that we cost them European glory. Being EFC, we can only dwell on what might have been...

Brendan McLaughlin
14   Posted 26/12/2007 at 22:01:03

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I have to admit that I don’t notice this "murderers" theme coming up that otten. But Michael would you label Guy W. on the basis of his post as one of the "mindless minority" and "seriously lacking in class"
Carl Hamlet
15   Posted 26/12/2007 at 22:48:56

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I havent read the rest of the comments left by people, but right on Danny your words coudlnt speak more clearly about my feelings towards the situation.

Merry Christmas Everyone!
Dave Trudgeon
16   Posted 26/12/2007 at 23:13:17

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I don?t agree with the chant, its classless.
Liverpool come off ok with everything they do.
Something I feel like I can broach on this thread is something that's always annoyed me.
The police were mostly to blame for Hilsborough, that is something that is very clear, it was a horrible tragedy. What gets me about the entire situation is that if every fan who charged into the ground had a ticket it would have been avoided because it would have been at capacity.
What NEVER gets mentioned on any tv program and by any red is the fact that hundreds if not thousands of liverpool fans who didn?t have tickets charged into the ground and at least contributed to that crush. To this day the club/supporters club has never come out and said they are disgusted by the actions of some of their fans. They COMPLETELY blame the police!
Sorry for the rant but I wanted to get it off my chest.
Dave Lawley
17   Posted 26/12/2007 at 23:52:28

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I know it's wrong to stereotype, but I went to the Blackburn game when there was a minute of applause for Rhys Jones, and I got to say I shed a tear, I have a young lad and everytime I see him in his Everton shirt it connects with me even now. Well, we stayed over in Liverpool at a B&B (I?m from E Yorks) went out for a few jars (till about 3 in the morning)...

In the taxi into town we got chatting with the cabbie, turned out he was RS but he seemed ok, we got talking about young Ryhs and how bad it was, when he said "at the end of the day it's one less Toffee in the world" with a bit of a smile on his face... I think he thought it might get a laugh ? he got a fucking mouthfull, what a cunt!

Here I was thinking this fucking terrible tragedy had united a city to find these cunts thought it was funny!!! When I read earlier in Connor's post about how we supported them after Hillsborough, I just thought you should know how these cunts supported the family of a young Evertonian.

I know its not all of them, but for me now they are all cunts until proven otherwise (and they have their work cut out).

Dave Moorcroft
18   Posted 26/12/2007 at 23:43:26

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First of all, May i take this opportunity to withdraw my criticism of David Moyes. Now in regards to "murderers", I spoke to a couple of good sensible LFC supporters after they got back from the final in Rome the year before the tradgedy and they were amazed by the evil that was aimed at them by the Italians. So they were probably on edge going into the Heysel final. What I found absolutly disgusting was when Thatcher and her cronies were telling Uefa to throw the English clubs out of Europe,(Because they're Animals) one week earlier we were GREAT, I didn't hear anyone from that shite over there, or the FA mention EVERTON and how GREAT we were in ROTTERDAM. They would never have got away with it if United had won the league that year. We let them walk all over us. Once they do it once, they do all the time (CLATTENBURG). The most blatant episode of cheating ? have ever seen... (They must have some photies).
Danny Broderick
19   Posted 27/12/2007 at 00:45:09

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Guys, what I am talking about here is not experiences of years gone by, it is about moving on. In terms of us being deprived for 10 years, we were at the peak of English football at the start of the ban. The fact that we were not there at the end of the ban is down to bad management. We were the best placed team to attract talent. The fact that we didn’t is not something we can hold Liverpool responsible for, even if they are the reason we were disqualified from Europe. We were the number 1 team when English teams were booted out, we would have been the number 1 team when we were re-admitted if only we had recruited sufficiently well enough. Obviously we lost certain players as well, but we never replaced them, and that is a fact.
I guess I am trying to say that it is not just the LFC factor that led to our demise as a club, there are vartious factors. And so to label it entirely to them is not the accurate version, just as various readers pointed out regarding Heysel. Taking bias out of the equation, you would have to say that EFC never bought championship players while they were champions...
Paul Coldock
20   Posted 27/12/2007 at 00:43:34

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Dave Lawley: Would you class all Americans as arrogant unless proven otherwise?

People and generations change. The action of the minority have always affected the majority. Just look at Islam and terrorism. The real unfortunate thing is that it’s always the innocent who suffer the most.

The people who refer to the Kopites as ’murderers’ and so forth, are (in my opinion) just lowering themselves.

Why can’t we just forgive and forget? If we never stop obsessing about the past, and what may have been, how can we move forward? In all honesty, i would rather stand shoulder to shoulder with a Liverpool fan than one of any other club (not including Everton). Why? Because my Brother and Sister support them, so do my 3 Uncles and my Step-Mum. Because when i meet a stranger and i find out their an LFC supporter, i find my desposition towards them is better then it would be if they supported just an other PL club. That means somthing to me.

Do we really have to hate each other?
Danny Broderick
21   Posted 27/12/2007 at 01:24:59

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Well said Paul Caldock. I seem to have found a similar voice. The minority may have caused untold trouble that night, but I will not tar them all with 1 brush, just like not all Scousers are thieves, not all England fans are hooligans etc...
Gavin Ramejkis
22   Posted 27/12/2007 at 02:37:32

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I think some people think the cover of the Watchtower is real; the lion and the lamb best of friends - some people will never forgive, some will, why try to demand a change? If you are happy with that lot then enjoy it don’t cast your demands upon those that don’t.
Roy Coyne
23   Posted 27/12/2007 at 03:00:17

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I must admit I cringe when chants like murderers start,sadly every club has its nasty quota after getting home tonight I watched our game again on sky plus and was horrified to see a young kid abusing a Bolton player as he took a throw or free kick this to me is wrong of course there are incidents where we all lose it to some decree but feel some one should have a quiet word with this lad,as for the abuse now it is bad and while I dont like the murder chants ect I have never heard any Liverpool fan accept any responsibility for any of the tragedy?s. My cousin was stopped from going to Hysel as trouble was expected after the previous year countless reds told me "we will be ready for them if they start this time" so surely they should accept a part of the blame and I admit to being bitter over Sheffield as I lost a mate there ? he arrived early was not drunk just a normal football fan and because the police panicked he died.

What does really get me is yes the police where 99% to blame but it was Liverpool fans who caused the panic, not that I think our fans would have behaved better. It would be nice if they faced up to their part. I don't think any one wanted any fan to lose their life at either stadium but the reckless ones do have some responsibility, however small, and after their last final they have learnt nothing.

Stefan Tosev
24   Posted 27/12/2007 at 08:50:16

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I have the feeling that some of us want to excuse Liverpool suporters, for things they have done, which in my eyes is not right.

Heysel was blamed on the "unsafe" stadium,Hillsburough was blamed on the police,Athen 2007 both on the police and the stadium, althoug there were stories about Liverpool fans robbing other Liverpool fans of their tickets - in all these cases everyone was to blame except Liverpool, even the Uefa report was branded biased and disgraceful.

If they as a club and community cant take responsibilities for their actions, who is to blame? Are they the choosen and blameless ones? What if there is fatal accident in the comming years between Liverpool and Everton fans and more people suffer - I know what will be the answer of their side - we can not be blamed and like everytime everyone will close their eyes and it will continue as simple as that
Dave Trudgeon
25   Posted 27/12/2007 at 09:18:28

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By the way, this "small minority" of everton fans who chant "murderers" sounds a lot like most of the crowd to me!!!! Otherwise we?d hardly hear it over the other chants would we? It's not a minority, I?d say it's the majority at the derby.
Ray Robinson
26   Posted 27/12/2007 at 10:26:22

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I don?t like the "murderers" chant....but when I hear RS fans say that it was worth the death of 39 "Eyeties" to keep the "Bitters" out of Europe I can?t help thinking that, maybe, some of them are. And when the RS bang on about monuments to Hillsborough and remembering those poor souls, what sort of rememberance service is paid to the innocent Italian football fans from Anfield? Does anyone know?
Ray Robinson
27   Posted 27/12/2007 at 10:35:35

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Gavin Ramejkis
The Watchtower
"and the lion will lay down with the lamb"...
(but the lamb won?t get much sleep)
Lue Glover
28   Posted 27/12/2007 at 11:29:20

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I don’t like the chant either and it came across loud and clear yesterday aimed at Kevin Nolan and others.
I didnt particularly like what I heard hours after the death of Rhys Jones either ’one less fucking Blueshite’. And that wasnt from the mouth of a taxi driver, that was from someone I work with, someone I’ve known for years.
I’ve got no answers to who’s to blame for what but my own gut feeling is that Liverpool will get away with just about any ’incident’ involving their supporters simply because of the collective guilt (of the authorities) over Hillsborough. The media and the authorities have fallen over themselves to portray LFC as the darlings of the English football scene ever since.
Perhaps by doing so they think that the rest of the world might forget Heysel.
Paul Gladwell
29   Posted 27/12/2007 at 11:45:18

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I read a totally superb story sometime this year in the WSAG fanzine about this subject and the Capital of Culture shite.

Allegedly a musican wrote a piece of music for the victims of Heysel and offerded this to either or both Liverpool FC and the City Council to use as a mark of respect; it was declined hands down and put away to gather dust. But, lo and behold, 20 years on it has been dug up now to be used as a tribute to the Hillsborough victims.

God bless those poor souls who lost their lives that day but what an absolute disgrace this little story is and just reminds us all how they have tried to whitewash this piece of their illustrious history.
They did apologise remember 20 years later all nice and fancy Live on sky for the viewers ? and did you see what the Juve fans thought of it?
Lue Glover
30   Posted 27/12/2007 at 12:05:33

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Yes, Paul Gladwell and the Juve supporters were made out to be the villains because they turned their backs on the ’apology/peace offering’ from LFC.
Job done by Liverpool and the media, LFC do the crime and now Juve supporters are considered to be in the wrong. It’s now ’well, we held out the hand of frienship and they rejected it’.........Amazing how they manage to do it and still come up smelling of roses.
I may sound very bitter about this but whilst I would never join in with any chants of ’murderers’ - I’ll be totally honest, deep down I really loath the media machine that is LFC/SKY and the way that they have conveniently forgotten what happened. The shit just doesnt stick with them does it.
Christo Garibaldi
31   Posted 27/12/2007 at 12:36:25

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Can I take a moment to make a comment on your website; I am Italian living in the UK, I am a 25 years and study in University. I am too young to remember Heysel, but a family freind died that night. To this day they have never had an apology from the club in person.

They lost a son that night, they don't talk to much about it but it aged both parents who never got over it. To them, their beloved son Adamo was murdered that night by soccer Ultras. It is the families who suffer but the families have been ignored by the British and the football club of Liverpool Christo

Posso occorro un momento per formulare un?osservazione sul vostro Web
site che sono vita italiana nel Regno Unito, sono i 25 anni e studio
in università. Sono ai giovani per ricordarsi di Hysell, ma ad un
freind della famiglia morto quello notte. A questo giorno non hanno
avuti mai lle scuse dal randello in persona, hanno perso un figlio che
notte, non comunicano con molto a questo proposito ma hanno
invecchiato entrambi i genitori che non lo hanno ottenuto mai sopra e
dentro a loro il loro figlio Adamo di beloverd è stato assassinato
che notte dai ultras di calcio. È le famiglie che soffrono ma le
famiglie sono state ignorate da British e dal randello di gioco del
calcio di Liverpool.

Dave Porter
32   Posted 27/12/2007 at 12:38:29

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Quote from earlier post:
’Why can?t we just forgive and forget? If we never stop obsessing about the past, and what may have been, how can we move forward? ’

I don’t hate all Germans and all Japanese, just the guilty bastards.
I hope we never forget the past, nor cease to learn from it. And please don’t lecture me on numbers or random acts of violence versus institutionalised slaughter.
My last act of violence was to deck the kopite who came in to work the morning after Heysel and gloated ’at least it keeps you bastards out of the European Cup’
Michael Kenrick
33   Posted 27/12/2007 at 12:50:03

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Some really interesting responses here, and my reaction at the head of this thread was perhaps a little strong. There is clearly some unfinished business involved and the careful whitewashing of events by LFC will forever leave a very bad taste in the mouth. Is "murderers" acceptable shorthand amongst Evertonians for all the valid detail expressed above? I?ll leave that as something each can decide on for their personal reasons.

[As a side note, I didn?t think the original comment was that bad, and actually left it up; I think Lynodn must have then censored it and added the note to the original mail.]

Mick Simo
34   Posted 27/12/2007 at 12:58:47

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Dave It is hard for some people to forget, forgive maybe, but my brother was shot dead 7 years ago an innocent lad, do I forgive and forget. Like the message above. I have recently heard Moyes make some comments about the Euro ban and how it set the club back. I think the problem with the Hysell issue is that LFC have never admitted any guilt and tried to give clousure to the families, yes the stadium was a dump etc, but walls just dont fall down, its like being hit on a zebra crossing in bad weather and the driver says it was the weather that caused me to mow someone down on a crossing. The more the kopites come out with comments like kept you bitter bastards out of europe it will be hard for us to forgive and forget. works both ways mate
Lue Glover
35   Posted 27/12/2007 at 13:00:33

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Grazie Christo, e facile dimenticare che queste persone avevano famigli che anche dopo questi anni sentano ancora il dolore di quel gorno terribile.
Il club di Liverpool doveva rispondere anni fa, ma sempre silencio da loro.
Avrai letto in questi pagini che noi, i tifosi di Everton, non possiamo perdonare quelli imbecili, non solo per la tragedia dei morti ma anche perche dal quel giorno, tutti i tifosi Inglesi sono diventati come delle bestie negli occhi del mondo.

Thank you Christo, it’s easy to forget that those people had families that still feel the pain even after all these years. Liverpool should have responded to the families but they remained silent. You will have read, in these responses that Everton supporters will find it hard to forgive and forget not only because of the terrible tragedy of the day but also because in the eyes of the world, ALL English supporters became animals.
Paul Coldock
36   Posted 27/12/2007 at 13:32:45

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Please don’t miss understand what i said. I am not asking people to forgive the deaths of that night, and i am not asking people to forgive all those stupid and mindless Kopites who thought it was good to joke about keeping us out of Europe.

What i was talking about was moving on from that set back that was being kicked out of Europe. Nothing can change the fact that happened, and we just need to move on (still only talking about us being kicked out of Europe).

I can, however, appreciate the bitterness that must be their from those who remember it well. Everton had finally come up with an answer to Liverpool’s dominance and all their success, only for it to be taken away in a cruel fashion. That is a pain that i can feel
Jay Campbell
37   Posted 27/12/2007 at 21:22:59

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They deserve every bit of stick that comes their way. Dirty Twat?s look at the way they behaved after Milan beat them in Athens.

One team, One City, One club that has disgraced that name of the city.

They should have been the only English team banned.
Keith Glazzard
38   Posted 29/12/2007 at 00:15:22

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Jay - I know a few Spanish and French blokes who love football and have a terrific knowledge of the game. As Joaquin said to me, why was everyone punished for the problem with one club? This isn’t fair. You will find many people - not just Evertonians - agreeing with you.

And yes - if the penalty shoot-out specialists of Europe want to make something of it, they do ’deserve every bit of stick that comes their way’ - they’ll soon shut up, as bullies always do when confronted. If they don’t know their history, they can be instructed.

The deaths of football supporters 22 years ago should never be mixed up with a plane crash in Germany or the shooting of a boy, quite different tragedies.

’Forgive and forget ’ is never easy - it is made all the harder when they never remembered in the first place, and everyone else is supposed to forget.

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