The Mail Bag
Stadium capacity and away support
Comments (16)
Sometimes the most unimportant questions do trouble your mind. One of the things I've been wondering for quite some time now, is what the actual maximum capacity of Goodison Park is currently. In most guides, websites and games some figure above the 40K-mark is given. Now the game against Bolton on Boxing Day was a sellout according to the official site. That same official site gives an attendance-number of 38,918.
In the Clattenburg-Derby the official number was 40,049 . For me, that's as close to the 'real' maximum capacity as I can get. At the derby, you just know that every seat will be occupied.
So I got my answer to the question of the maximum capacity. Leaves me wondering where the difference of 1131 souls in the official numbers comes from. The only sensible thing is that the sell-out was based on home support only and that Bolton didn't sell out their contingency of tickets. In the short summary I saw, the away part of the Bullens wasn't shown at all, so I've got no clue as to my assumption is true or that there is another reason why a so-called sell-out delivers a significantly lower attendance than a derby match. Can anyone shine a light on this subject, ie someone present at the ground to verify that Bolton didn't bring that much of a support with them?
Sorry to waste your time with such an insignificant question! It's just that I'm bored at work. Those days between christmas and new Year seem to last forever... Thanks ToffeeWeb crew for providing the necessary distraction. Still love this site.
Erik Dols, Posted 28/12/2007 at 12:31:11
Comments
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Chris Jones (Wakefield)
2 Posted 28/12/2007 at 16:34:40
2 Posted 28/12/2007 at 16:34:40
I don’t normally sit anywhere near the away fans’ area at Goodison so don’t know if this is correct - for some games, maybe spaces are left free, for segregation purposes? If so these would contribute to the discrepancy - no point having segregation for derby games cos the reds seem to manage to get everywhere (I’ve been to Derbies where season ticket holders I’d chat to normally couldn’t make the game and had given their ticket to a family member - from the dark side!).
However, the biggest likely discrepancy is down to the fact that just cos a game is a sell-out doesn’t mean it’s going to be a full house.
I was due to attend a concert recently (Vin Garbutt if you’re interested) which was a sell out. Sadly me and the misses couldn’t get there and weren’t able to offload our tickets. Hence, at this "sell-out show" there were at least two empty seats!
Can’t imagine I’d have had a problem offloading TWO HUNDRED tickets to a derby game!
However, the biggest likely discrepancy is down to the fact that just cos a game is a sell-out doesn’t mean it’s going to be a full house.
I was due to attend a concert recently (Vin Garbutt if you’re interested) which was a sell out. Sadly me and the misses couldn’t get there and weren’t able to offload our tickets. Hence, at this "sell-out show" there were at least two empty seats!
Can’t imagine I’d have had a problem offloading TWO HUNDRED tickets to a derby game!
Gavin Ramejkis
3 Posted 28/12/2007 at 16:48:24
3 Posted 28/12/2007 at 16:48:24
I sit in the Park End near the away fans and can say that Bolton only used the lower Bullens, away teams get offered lower and upper, they brought a good number but the upper section was home fans. Some teams especially Blackburn who are very close geographically have abysmal away showings at Goodison and often get the "did you come in one taxi?".
The footfall at Goodison has been carefully manipulated for years.
The footfall at Goodison has been carefully manipulated for years.
Alex Krayford
4 Posted 28/12/2007 at 17:35:09
4 Posted 28/12/2007 at 17:35:09
Even the derby game of 40,049 seems strangely lower than the capcity of Goodison - wherever you look;
Wikipedia says Goodison is 40,569, stadiumguide.com says its 40,200, the Official site says 40,216, fanzone.co.uk says 40,103.
Wikipedia says Goodison is 40,569, stadiumguide.com says its 40,200, the Official site says 40,216, fanzone.co.uk says 40,103.
Alan Clarke
5 Posted 28/12/2007 at 17:59:43
5 Posted 28/12/2007 at 17:59:43
Is it that, sometimes, by declaring less people were at the game, the club declares less income thus avoiding paying so much tax? This money saved on not declaring 1131 fans will help pay for the extra cough syrup needed for the team at the moment.
I’m not saying anything like Wyness is a tax fraud like.
I’m not saying anything like Wyness is a tax fraud like.
Tommy Gibbons
6 Posted 28/12/2007 at 20:47:29
6 Posted 28/12/2007 at 20:47:29
Bolton never filled their section as their away support is so abysmal for Premiership games but I?d say maybe 150 seats short, and as one of the previous posters states, people do not turn up for all manner of reasons, I?d also wager that Ticketmaster had tickets unsold but Everton class the tickets as sold so post ?sold out? notices..
One thing it isn?t though is Wyness/tax fraud! How can it be a tax fraud when the club state they?ve sold out!...God save us from the no-voting conspirators!!
One thing it isn?t though is Wyness/tax fraud! How can it be a tax fraud when the club state they?ve sold out!...God save us from the no-voting conspirators!!
Arthur jones
7 Posted 28/12/2007 at 21:09:09
7 Posted 28/12/2007 at 21:09:09
I know of a few season ticket hlders who for various reasons could not be at the game on Wednesday , illness , away for xmas , too much fizz on xmas day and I did notice that there were empty seats in the lower bullens , these might account for 1000 or so , and as season ticket holders have already paid for their seats then there’s no reason for everton to declare them ?
Hugo Kondratiuk
8 Posted 28/12/2007 at 21:07:46
8 Posted 28/12/2007 at 21:07:46
It may be something to do with season ticket holders not turning up. I’m sure I heard somewhere that some clubs count all their season ticket holders in the declared attendance, whether or not they actually attended, whereas others don’t.
Before Christmas I read a report on an Arsenal home game that mentioned significant numbers of empty seats at the Emirates. Yet according to the same paper the gate was 59,000 plus. Presumably Arsenal count their season ticket holders in, come what may.
We might do the other thing. Perhaps 1,000-odd of ours departed for sunnier climes, or were off visiting the mother-in-law somewhere.
Bet they’re back by tomorrow, though.
Before Christmas I read a report on an Arsenal home game that mentioned significant numbers of empty seats at the Emirates. Yet according to the same paper the gate was 59,000 plus. Presumably Arsenal count their season ticket holders in, come what may.
We might do the other thing. Perhaps 1,000-odd of ours departed for sunnier climes, or were off visiting the mother-in-law somewhere.
Bet they’re back by tomorrow, though.
Ray Robinson
9 Posted 29/12/2007 at 00:04:38
9 Posted 29/12/2007 at 00:04:38
Erik, I wondered the same thing. Unlike Man City who count all their season ticket holders as present whether they are or not, we may not count absentees. However, I guess that a significant number was down to Bolton - the lower tier only looked pretty full but I?ve no idea from my Park End seat whether underneath the stand was full.
One interesting aside - I forgot my season card for the Bolton game and had to queue up for a replacement ticket. When I got to the turnstile, the replacement ticket was for my seat alright but showed the Arsenal game on it! I?m hoping that my card works tomorrow when I try to clock in as normal!!
Surely the cutout area in the Gwladys St. terrace for the disabled must have had some effect on the capacity.? I doubt Everton would allow it to drop below 40,000 though as this has a significant effect on what matches can be staged at the ground.
As for the fiddling, I guess that went out of the window years ago when we (and Liverpool) were under investigation from the VAT and tax man!
One interesting aside - I forgot my season card for the Bolton game and had to queue up for a replacement ticket. When I got to the turnstile, the replacement ticket was for my seat alright but showed the Arsenal game on it! I?m hoping that my card works tomorrow when I try to clock in as normal!!
Surely the cutout area in the Gwladys St. terrace for the disabled must have had some effect on the capacity.? I doubt Everton would allow it to drop below 40,000 though as this has a significant effect on what matches can be staged at the ground.
As for the fiddling, I guess that went out of the window years ago when we (and Liverpool) were under investigation from the VAT and tax man!
Chris Jones (Wakefield)
10 Posted 29/12/2007 at 00:07:06
10 Posted 29/12/2007 at 00:07:06
Guys, guys, careful what you say when suggesting the club might be massaging footfall. This was a line of argument taken by one of the fanzines many moons ago, and the club came down real heavy on them - threatening legal action and all sorts.
We don’t want THIS site forced off the web because of some ill-guarded comments from people whose necks aren’t on the block!
We don’t want THIS site forced off the web because of some ill-guarded comments from people whose necks aren’t on the block!
Tony Jones
11 Posted 29/12/2007 at 01:08:58
11 Posted 29/12/2007 at 01:08:58
Chris, I?m sure the tax dodging suggestions are all tongue in cheek. I don?t think anyone would truely suggest Keith Wynnes IS tax evading.
Derek Thomas
12 Posted 29/12/2007 at 03:30:56
12 Posted 29/12/2007 at 03:30:56
Gavin and others Re. footfall: Glad some one else has picked up on it. I seem to remember it starting in the early 70’s when it was a standing joke how far out the announced attendance was from what we could see with our own eyes, eg you would look around and ’feel’ from the pressure around you in the Street end and come up with a percentage of the 50K max. 75% = 37K then the announcement ’ todays attendance was 32,482, cue howls of derision.
As memory serves the ’official’ att. for the 62-63 Spurs game1-0 from Alex’s head was 64K. Well they ALL must’ve been in the Gwladys St. Me and Peter Stokes (are you out there Pete??)were 1st in at 1200 front and centre on the wall behind the goal and the crush was little short of unendurable, never seen anything remotely close to it since.
Any other memories of this??
As memory serves the ’official’ att. for the 62-63 Spurs game1-0 from Alex’s head was 64K. Well they ALL must’ve been in the Gwladys St. Me and Peter Stokes (are you out there Pete??)were 1st in at 1200 front and centre on the wall behind the goal and the crush was little short of unendurable, never seen anything remotely close to it since.
Any other memories of this??
Alan Ryder
13 Posted 29/12/2007 at 05:45:07
13 Posted 29/12/2007 at 05:45:07
The answer is quite simple. We have somebody who walks around with a clicker like the ones they use on aeroplanes to count the passengers when they are late for take off. Now our fellah is quite good but he can’t see around all the obstructed posts and he has to get his numbers in before half time. Now if we score and everyone jumps up he has to start all over again. Apparently he chucked thre job in after the Sunderland game.
Ray Roche
14 Posted 29/12/2007 at 07:51:08
14 Posted 29/12/2007 at 07:51:08
Derek Thomas
Yes, Derek,I was also at that game, and also in The Street End. At many games in those days hoots of derision went up as they announced the match attendance. You’d look around a packed Goodison and wonder how on Earth they could get another 20k inside. My Old Feller always said that the figures were being "massaged". And why do the club have each match attendance up on the scoreboard for about 5 seconds? Is this to avoid the same sort of ridicule?
Yes, Derek,I was also at that game, and also in The Street End. At many games in those days hoots of derision went up as they announced the match attendance. You’d look around a packed Goodison and wonder how on Earth they could get another 20k inside. My Old Feller always said that the figures were being "massaged". And why do the club have each match attendance up on the scoreboard for about 5 seconds? Is this to avoid the same sort of ridicule?
Gavin Ramejkis
15 Posted 29/12/2007 at 09:51:41
15 Posted 29/12/2007 at 09:51:41
As far fetched as it would seem but the further fetched doesn’t make it impossible, please bear with me. If a major disaster were to happen at any stadium and the protective services, eg fire, ambulance and police had to account for all souls inside, how could they ever do this if the clubs were to tell porkies about the true figures inside?
It’s something I’ve always wondered since I was a kid and we did fire practice with teachers doing headcounts on the playground and later in various jobs with fire marshalls doing the same in office car parks, I too can remember the huge roars at Goodison when I was younger when they announced the attendance which was all too often way below what you could see with your own eyes.
It’s something I’ve always wondered since I was a kid and we did fire practice with teachers doing headcounts on the playground and later in various jobs with fire marshalls doing the same in office car parks, I too can remember the huge roars at Goodison when I was younger when they announced the attendance which was all too often way below what you could see with your own eyes.
Alan Clarke
16 Posted 29/12/2007 at 10:15:27
16 Posted 29/12/2007 at 10:15:27
My tax fraud comment was very much tongue in cheek. The money saved by not declaring 1131 spectators is peanuts and probably just enough to buy some cough syrup.
Lighten up Tommy Gibbons, if anything I was taking the michael out of the conspiracists!
Lighten up Tommy Gibbons, if anything I was taking the michael out of the conspiracists!
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1 Posted 28/12/2007 at 16:33:50
There’s three of your missing 1131, any offers on anybody else?