I know how you feel Kieran, i’m in my mid-thirties too and the feelings for my club are as bright as they ever were - we’re finally going places, the club is doing just fine on ’n off the pitch, 99% of the fanbase is supremely happy and we look like we’re only a couple o’ players short of something really special. Getting back in with the big boys doesn’t look the pipe dream it looked just a few months ago does it?

COYB!

I know what you are saying Kieran. Last year we did well finishing 6th & of course we did exceptionally well grabbing 4th a few seasons before. But like you I’ve always approached recent seasons in hope rather than expectation. This season, however, things really do seem to have come together on the pitch and the team are playing with a lot of confidence & style.
By the way are you implying that we are not one of the "big teams" when you say we always do well against them?. Get your flak jacket & helmet on, you are going to get slaughtered by the "boys from the NSNO brigade".

I think alot of people would agree with you Kieran - I’m also mid thirties so maybe its an age thing. The older fans will always remember fondly ’the good old days’ which probably weren’t as good as they think (the same can be said of all our formative years I’d imagine if we’re honest)

The NSNO thing is all well & good but its not reality - football has moved on, I’m just glad we’re finally moving with it.

I still see Man City finishing above us this year; I hope I’m wrong but something in me says the cup runs might shoot us in the Premier League foot, if you catch my drift.

I see what you mean Brendan. I meant to say the ?big four?.

In what way do we hold our own against the big teams ?
Beaten twice against Man Utd
Beaten by the Arse
Beaten by the other lot ( or robbed by a ref as the case may be).
Draw against Chelski.
Thats 1 point by my reckoning. It’s points that make prizes, not performances that we get 0 points from.
Losing to teams is not matching them, it’s coming 2nd to them.

Dave, I think he means that we match them generally speaking, results aside - we go into these games now with a much more positive outlook. Gone are the days of thinking we’re gonna get beat. Now it feels like we could beat them, and our performances have been very good against them of late, if not the right results.

You got me thinking. The other day I was away when we played the ’Boro. When I got home I immediately checked our result.

Now I know for sure that in recent years, I would have more or less expected a loss. I would only have hoped for a win but not expect it. This time, I was almost certain we would have won it. I didn’t fear the result, like I would have done most of the time last years. Confidence is growing, yay!

Dave: In the recent games against Arsenal and Utd we played some excellent football. Through a silly mistake against Utd, and three or four very amazingly poor lapses at the back against Arsenal, we through away both games. Yes, I would rather that good performances equaled victories against the big four, but the performances this season have been several steps up from the absolute hammerings and crappy ?moral victories? we?ve had to endure over the last number of seasons. The fact that we threw away games having played well rather than having lost them playing poorly speaks volumes to me.

Fair point lads.
Maybe i’m just pissed off at being back at work after the break.

It has its highs and lows this confidence though. Gone are the days when I expected to lose against Man Utd and Arsenal. I was GUTTED when Man Utd beat us and when Arsenal did because I thought we could geniunely beat or at least draw with them. I?ve never been gutted about losing to those two before and it was a horrible feeling.

My sentiments exactly! I think all Evertonians of a certain age (I’m 29 and therefore of the same generation) feel exactly how you’re feeling. I wasn’t old enough to appreciate the glories of the mid 80’s and spent my formidable youth amidst the dour, miserable relegation battles of the 90’s. So I agree with your every word, Kieran!

I suppose another comparison is the festive fixture period. I used to dread it. There were years if we took six points from the six festive games that would be regarded as something of an achievement. Now we’ve taken 12 from a possible 18 -a very good return IMHO.

And Dave Lynch, if you havn’t already guessed from my upbeat demeanour I ain’t back at work yet!

Yep, I’m 29 and I have exactly the same feeling. I only truly remember the Royal era as the one of any success in terms of winning a trophy and getting a good league finish. But even then I didn’t have the same confidence that I have now. It’s interesting how Tony Marsh and many other more ’experienced’ (trying to be polite here!) fans who saw the glory days demand success whereas we ’inexperienced’ (ahem) Evertonians of a certain age timidly have hoped for success. Hopefully this will be a long term shift!

Similar comment from me. I'm 30 and just about remember Kendall's team, remember crying my eyes out in the 86 cup final... so yeah I share the sentiments regarding it being a long time coming...but doesn?t it feel good seeing us win week in, week out?

Wish I was in my mid-30s like most of you boys! I find it hard to disagree with the theme though. This is the 1st time in 20 something years I go in to matches expecting to win. I would have been disappointed had we not beaten boro, previously a point at the Riverside would have gone down nicely. Yep we did lose to Arsenal & Man U - but knock out the schoolboy mistakes & we would have taken points off both. I?m looking forward to the City game, it will be interesting to see which one of us is closest to the Big 3. I frankly do not see the Dark Side getting any closer to the leaders than they did last year! Furthermore, I reckon 4th to 7th place is pretty open...

Keep the champagne on ice!

I’m slightly older than you at 41 and my perspective is a bit more NSNO. I’ve been a Blue since I was a toddler, have been a season ticket holder for the past few years and now the front room of my house is the "Blue Room". I’ve been perennially disappointed with mid table mediocrity and relegation battles over the years but stuck with it developing a pathological hatred of all things red. (God, how I hope they become the New Leeds). This season has been great so far - it feels like 83/84. But - as I posted on here just before the start of the season - we need to get some silverware on the table. That’s what we all want to see. I’d sacrifice 4th place for a Cup - preferably UEFA - though I’m starting to believe anything is possible this season. Like you, I was always proud to be a blue but it’s nice to be proud of the team as well.

Still we are yet to beat anyone in the top 9!!!!

This season Mike, this season!

Steve Coppell was on TV today saying he doesn't care about the FA cup because he can't win it. His argument is that only four teams can. Can we win it? Should we be concentrating on the league?

Being older and remembering all our triumphs since Harry Catts I feel lucky after these posts, but we are improving. I remember being embarrassed coming out of Arsenal a few years ago after the 7-goal hammering and completely out classed this latest defeat was certainly a lot better than the score suggested a couple of class players and a top four spot could be ours,as neither Liverpool or Chelsea seem to be that much better than us.

"Steve Coppell was on TV today saying he doesn’t care about the FA cup because he can’t win it. His argument is that only four teams can. Can we win it? Should we be concentrating on the league?"

I’ve generally got a lot of time for Steve Coppell, he seems like a genuine guy, but that’s one of the most ridiculous statements I’ve heard in football. If our manager ever said that I’d be calling for his head immediately.

Not to get all American-motivational-speaker on you, but Coppell’s right, he can’t win the FA Cup if he thinks like that. You’ll only win something if you actually believe you can, otherwise you’ll find a way to lose. I believe Everton can beat any team in a one off match (even if we’d lose the other 9 out of 10) and if I was a Reading fan I’d be livid that Coppell didn’t believe the same about his team.

To get existential (or depressing) about it, what’s the point of being a football fan? Surely the hope, the ambition, the optimism is where the joy comes from? The belief that one day you might win that cup final against the odds is what keeps fans going even when things are going badly. As far as I can tell, Coppell’s comment seems to resign Reading to the dull treadmill of league football and (hopefully) mid-table finishes in perpetuity. By the same logic, Coppell shouldn’t care about the league because he can’t win it.

We should never, ever think like Coppell or Reading. We must be ambitious, we must believe we can win things and now that we’ve actually got a very good team, we must believe in balancing different competitions and pursuing glory on multiple fronts, that’s what will keep me happy as a fan, its what will keep players happy and its what will attract new and better players to the club.

Allan Hobbs

Sorry,Allan,but I disagree. Us older fans,I?m 60 this year,(and that looks awfull written down) , may well regard the "old days" as being better and with good reason. At the start of the season any one of a number of clubs could end up as Champions. My first season was 1959-1960 and during the 60?s Burnley,Spurs,Ipswich,EFC,LFC,
Utd,
Leeds and City all won the League title. That has got to be better than " who can break the Big 4 dominance" that precedes each Premiership season. I?ve also had the argument, usually with RS or Manure fans, that that generation of player couldn?t last today. Of course they would, given todays diet, training and fitness regimes, and the dedication and singlemindedness that is instilled into players from school days. And the rewards.Would anyone argue that,all things being equall, Best,Charlton,Law, Young, Labone,T.G.Jones,Raich Carter, Finney, Liddle, Mercer and Dean wouldn?t rise above their peers in the same way that they did in their era? Of course, Dean wouldn?t get 60 goals, better tactics and goalkeeping standards would see to that, but he?d still do pretty well. The interesting argument is this.Would todays pampered,protected darlings cut the mustard then? Would Ronaldo try his stepovers with Alex Parker launching one of his slide tackles at him, with the probable outcome of Ronaldo ending up in row D? And his hairband in row F.And no foul or red card.Who could do all the flicks and feints wearing old brown boots with nailed in studs and a wet,heavy leather ball. With laces. And heavy wet,cotton shirts and shorts? And poor medical care,after all,a cartilage operation then often finished your career,now you?re in and out of hospital in a few hours and playing again in a couple of weeks. Lastly, Utd.fans especially bang on about Best as THE best ever......so when is the cut off date? When does a player or era go back too far. If Best IS the best, how come players after him are not deemed sufficiently "great"? Over to you.

Ray, its interesting, I was having this argument with my (61 year old) Dad, himself a Burnley fan, the other day. The initial, extremely boring, thing to say, is that its pointless comparing eras as to many variables are different, you mention a few yourself. Its fun though, so lets have a go.
The first point I would like to make is that if we are allowed to say that Dean, Labone, Best, Charlton and Law would be as good with access to the diet and training etc of modern players, then we have to say that modern players would ’toughen’ up to the conditions of old if they had to. Its just that they don’t have to. If one lot can adapt, so can the others.
The second thing you mention, which particularly amused me as its an exact replica of an argument me and my Dad were having is about Cristiano Ronaldo. I think he would do whatever he wanted, twice, backwards before any of the clogging full backs got anywhere near him. My Dad pointed out that he would get his leg broken but I’m really not so sure. He’d be too quick, too aware and too skillful. The more force someone tries to put into a challenge the easier it is to see coming, they simply wouldn’t get near him. My Dad countered that he might see the first 5 or 10 or 15 coming, but one would get him eventually. I argued that once someone had tried to break your best players leg that many times, the team ’hardman’ would see the full back off on a stretcher first. Following my Dad’s logic of 60s thuggery, either Ronaldo would do just fine, or each game would be last man standing wins.

This led to the issue of progress, where I argued that defending was much, much more sophisticated now than it was then. In the 60s (and in many people’s minds still today) a good sliding tackle was a good piece of defending. It still can be, but if you’re a defender and you’ve got to the stage where you’re off your feet and out of control, you’ve done something wrong in the first place. Defending is about reading, positioning and control, and you should stay on your feet except in dire or exceptional circumstances. That defending has got so much better has led arms-race style, to attacking skill being better (or quicker, or both) than it was then, something which my Dad vehemently denied, using the example of Jimmy McIlroy (Burnley and Northern Ireland) as someone with as much skill as any of today’s players. I can’t comment on that, as I never saw him, but we did at least agree on one thing, that George Best was overrated. In my Dad’s case this was based on personal experience of a lazy, ineffective bit part player in a Man Utd team containing Law and Charlton, in my own its from watching the ’highlights’ if his career in which anytime he beats a defender its because the idiot has dived in in a naive and predictable way.

Quite a lot to digest there I know, but pick out what you will.

Ray - I was talking more about how we all, as people, regard our younger days as the best of our lives and that looking back, memories always seem better than perhaps they were. The long hot summer days & all that.

I don’t think you can compare players from back then with players of today because the game is totally different as you point out. The rules are different, the equipment is different, the way the game is played is utterly different. I look back with fond memories of yesteryear like you do, although I wasn’t born till ’73 I still regard the older players as my heroes. Ferenc Puskas is my all time hero (oddly some might say) and I was at his burial site less than a week ago in Budapest to pay my respects, but would Puskas survive in todays game as the player he was back in the 50’s? No, definately not; he was overweight for most of his career, had dodgy knees due to the mauling he got from opposition defenders (ask Billy Wright et al) but had he been a top pro now things would be different for him. He’d eat/train differently and probably be fitter and healthier as a result. Skill-wise he’d be as good as Ronaldo is; the guy was pulling off things that nobody had seen before, and as a team Puskas, Nandor Hidekuti, Czibor, Kocsis, Bozsik and the rest were way ahead of their time. To try and guess the outcome of that team versus say todays European (Greece?!?) or World Champions (Italy) is pointless because they play a different game.

You and I actually agree on this Ray, despite what you may believe!

Mike Allison
Some good points,Mike,and well made, however, to say that Ronaldo "would do whatever he wanted, twice, backwards " is possibly a bit over the top. (As would be some of the tackles). He is undoubtedly a great player but the variables we have mentioned would prevent too much "Fancy Dan" type of play, in the same way that todays freedom and equipment would help yesteryears players. I suppose we are both saying the same thing but from different corners, players WOULD be able to adapt to the different eras, but I still think that it would be easier for a class player from the 60s to shine in the modern era than vice versa. As for defending,you?re right, there is a more scientific aspect with goalkeeping in particular vastly improved. As for thuggery,it was regarded as a mans game then and players had nowhere near the level of protection they get now, but a well executed sliding tackle was an art in itself, just as difficult to do as a 40yard pass.
Incidentally, Burnley were a great side in those days and I was in the ground when they stuffed us 0-3 at GP on 27th Dec in front of 74k fans. The day before we?d stuffed them 1-3 at Turf Moor!
Allan Hobbs

Yes,Allan,us over thirties (!) may be reagarded as wearing rose tinted specs but I still think football was a better game then. I don?t care what anyone says, a Big 10 fighting for the league title is better than a Big 3. One thing we can all see from old film of matches is that the condition of the pitches is vastly improved.

Well I can top all of you: I was 3 when we won the FA Cup in 95 so I don?t remember that so the only manager other than Moyes I can remember is Smith and let's face it he is not worth remembering.

"Whatever he wanted, twice, backwards" might be over the top, but I think he’d get by. :-)

I do think players are over-protected now, and I agree strength and toughness should still be part of the game, however, the "man’s game" line has always irritated me, but that’s mainly personal as its only really affected me when some fat thug from an opposition team has used it to try to justify his attempts at punching/crippling me for daring to be good at football at quite a low level. I usually reply that no it isn’t, and he should fuck off and play rugby if he was actually hard. I believe being a ’man’ is about toughness, not dirtiness.

More importantly, my Dad never tires of telling me good Burnley were, so he’ll be glad to hear I’ve had some independent verification!