The Mail Bag
A little look at what could have been
Comments (17)
This is the image in today's Echo about the new Liverpool Echo Arena or the 'Kings Dock' project as we know it.
We didnt get support by the council but they went ahead and built it anyay.
Tom Rowe, Posted 04/01/2008 at 17:24:39
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Jeremy Benson
2 Posted 04/01/2008 at 20:15:21
2 Posted 04/01/2008 at 20:15:21
Except, the capacity is just 10,000, against the 50,000 that we would have wanted/asked for.
And on such "minor" differences of a 400% increase, do planning permissions succeed, or fail....
This is the real world.
And on such "minor" differences of a 400% increase, do planning permissions succeed, or fail....
This is the real world.
Gavin Ramejkis
3 Posted 04/01/2008 at 20:40:50
3 Posted 04/01/2008 at 20:40:50
To be fair Jeremy they built a concert venue not a multi use stadium which is what we were originally involved in on the site, a 10k being empty between concerts isn’t half the burden of a 50k empty one. I know concerts can attract many more than 10k and have been in Dublin to watch Robbie Williams with over 100k in attendance but these concerts are few and far between.
Jeremy Benson
4 Posted 04/01/2008 at 20:52:00
4 Posted 04/01/2008 at 20:52:00
Eh?
Andy Macfarlane
5 Posted 04/01/2008 at 21:16:13
5 Posted 04/01/2008 at 21:16:13
Hi, again, Gavin. Don?t really think that the hopefully laudable sucess of our City?s new arena should be the source of snide comments about the potential for EFC in Kirkby. Everton?s King?s Dock business plan was based upon the assumption that the arena would become a major hub for concerts etc - LCC?s investment merely confirms that their assessment was probably (hopefully, for Our City) correct. The Kirkby business plan concentrates more on the core business of the Football Club, with any ancillary concerts or conference opportunities being periferal. Having said that, if I was organising a one day conference, I might prefer a venue 6 minutes away from the M57 and other motorway links (i.e Kirkby) than getting snarled up attempting to penetrate Kings Dock area. Not trying to make a cheap shot here, however!
Ed Fitzgerald
6 Posted 04/01/2008 at 22:05:03
6 Posted 04/01/2008 at 22:05:03
Andy
Eh doesnt the Kirkby move revolve around TESCO they are the core business on this site, not us we are just the trojan horse to get the planning permission for them. The fact is the Kings Dock site should have been delivered and with a more astute chairman it would have been. Only Everton could contrive to start building a stadium outside of the city during the 2008 City of Culture year. Part of my job involves arranging conferences and there is no way Kirkby is going to be a more attractive proposition than Liverpool City Centre. Some of the requirements delegates normally expect include a mainline train station within 10 mins, high quality hotels, the venue to be surrounded by pleasant and interesting vistas (places of history). When conferences do not meet these requirements I soon get to hear about it. Not making a cheap shot, but the site and stadium is not even going to be anywhere as good as the Reebok/Horwich development is it?
Eh doesnt the Kirkby move revolve around TESCO they are the core business on this site, not us we are just the trojan horse to get the planning permission for them. The fact is the Kings Dock site should have been delivered and with a more astute chairman it would have been. Only Everton could contrive to start building a stadium outside of the city during the 2008 City of Culture year. Part of my job involves arranging conferences and there is no way Kirkby is going to be a more attractive proposition than Liverpool City Centre. Some of the requirements delegates normally expect include a mainline train station within 10 mins, high quality hotels, the venue to be surrounded by pleasant and interesting vistas (places of history). When conferences do not meet these requirements I soon get to hear about it. Not making a cheap shot, but the site and stadium is not even going to be anywhere as good as the Reebok/Horwich development is it?
Jay Harris
7 Posted 04/01/2008 at 22:12:48
7 Posted 04/01/2008 at 22:12:48
Andy
Remind me never to ask you to organise our company outings.
How the fuck would anyone prefer Kirkby to Kings dock?
No wonder the yes vote got the go ahead
Remind me never to ask you to organise our company outings.
How the fuck would anyone prefer Kirkby to Kings dock?
No wonder the yes vote got the go ahead
Steve Hogan
8 Posted 04/01/2008 at 22:38:33
8 Posted 04/01/2008 at 22:38:33
Most of the sensible people who frequent this site are not trying to compare Liverpool City Centre v Kirkby as a premium conference venue.
How many times do the NO fraternity have to get it into their thick heads that the reason Kirkby WILL go ahead is because the Tesco/EFC partnership is the only deal on the table that Everton can afford and deliver.
Now that the KEIOC mob are running out of steam and credibility (hello Bestway and the loony loop) perhaps people who still oppose the new stadium would like to study in detail the comprehensive plans on the Knowsley Council website.
Now no-one can accuse Everton or Tesco of hiding behind the so-called exclusitivity agreement.
How many times do the NO fraternity have to get it into their thick heads that the reason Kirkby WILL go ahead is because the Tesco/EFC partnership is the only deal on the table that Everton can afford and deliver.
Now that the KEIOC mob are running out of steam and credibility (hello Bestway and the loony loop) perhaps people who still oppose the new stadium would like to study in detail the comprehensive plans on the Knowsley Council website.
Now no-one can accuse Everton or Tesco of hiding behind the so-called exclusitivity agreement.
Ed Fitzgerald
9 Posted 04/01/2008 at 22:47:38
9 Posted 04/01/2008 at 22:47:38
Neither was I, it was the yes voter who raised the conference issue. Yes I have seen the plans and no I am not impressed.
To be fair I have not been impressed by any of the arguments that have been advanced. Don’t tell us we are thick because we don’t agree with you however, we have every right to raise our objections.
To be fair I have not been impressed by any of the arguments that have been advanced. Don’t tell us we are thick because we don’t agree with you however, we have every right to raise our objections.
Gavin Ramejkis
10 Posted 04/01/2008 at 23:36:09
10 Posted 04/01/2008 at 23:36:09
Andy sorry to point out the major arguments for Kirkby to pro voters that ram it down anyone’s throat every opportunity but the new stadium is supposed to generate more income than what we currently have by providing all year round business from football matches, concerts and as a venue for business meetings, the new arena has negated the concert venue even more than the location already does and as pointed out by more knowledgable people involved in business meetings that too is a red herring. Costs still coming from loans the club will have to take out last time I heard so why is Kirkby STILL the right option?
Stefan Tosev
11 Posted 04/01/2008 at 23:36:56
11 Posted 04/01/2008 at 23:36:56
What an opportunity was missed, shame...
Jay Harris
12 Posted 05/01/2008 at 04:20:36
12 Posted 05/01/2008 at 04:20:36
When oh when will the Yes brigade learn that the fucking stadium costs will be the same no matter where it?s built.
The only difference is funding and return.
I am sure that a quality stadium in the city is far more attractive to developers, investors, sponsors, executive box holders, corporative sponsors, retailers, hoteliers etc than some fucking barn in a small underpopulated town where Tesco would like a store.
The only difference is funding and return.
I am sure that a quality stadium in the city is far more attractive to developers, investors, sponsors, executive box holders, corporative sponsors, retailers, hoteliers etc than some fucking barn in a small underpopulated town where Tesco would like a store.
Jay Campbell
13 Posted 05/01/2008 at 08:31:29
13 Posted 05/01/2008 at 08:31:29
RIP EFC!!!!
tony kelly
14 Posted 05/01/2008 at 09:30:40
14 Posted 05/01/2008 at 09:30:40
what has happened to my comment?
Neil Pearse
15 Posted 05/01/2008 at 10:10:42
15 Posted 05/01/2008 at 10:10:42
A Yes voter that I am, of course I regret very much that we did not secure the King’s Dock site. I think any Blue who says that they prefer Kirkby is in denial or lying or mad.
However, the reason we are going to Kirkby is simple, and it is a shame that it has to be endlessly repeated. It is not of course that Bill or Keith or anyone else thinks that Kirkby is a better site for Everton than the Kings’s Dock. It is because we are not a rich club and we can afford Kirkby and we cannot afford more expensive options.
I would urge readers to go to the documents on the Knowsley site referenced in another thread. They at last (far too late to my mind) lay out the ’Realist’ case for the Kirkby site. They talk openly of Kirkby as a"mid-range" Premiership stadium (sorry about NSNO), about funding issues (we are not rich), and about timing issues (we are behind). They show that detailed assessments of both redeveloping Goodison and of other sites HAVE been made, and come up wanting given our need for a modern stadium and our funding restrictions.
I do not see any of this as an occasion for great joy. Personally I would rather we were soon opening up at King’s Dock or about to build on Stanley Park (although I have doubts that our neighbours will now be able to afford this in its current planned form). But reality is reality is reality. As I would have thought us long-suffering Evertonians would be aware of!
We are Evertonians and I am confident that we will go to Kirkby - although it is no-one’s first preference - and continue the glorious history of our club. Because we will be there.
Nil desperandum... (although I know this is the motto of another football club).
However, the reason we are going to Kirkby is simple, and it is a shame that it has to be endlessly repeated. It is not of course that Bill or Keith or anyone else thinks that Kirkby is a better site for Everton than the Kings’s Dock. It is because we are not a rich club and we can afford Kirkby and we cannot afford more expensive options.
I would urge readers to go to the documents on the Knowsley site referenced in another thread. They at last (far too late to my mind) lay out the ’Realist’ case for the Kirkby site. They talk openly of Kirkby as a"mid-range" Premiership stadium (sorry about NSNO), about funding issues (we are not rich), and about timing issues (we are behind). They show that detailed assessments of both redeveloping Goodison and of other sites HAVE been made, and come up wanting given our need for a modern stadium and our funding restrictions.
I do not see any of this as an occasion for great joy. Personally I would rather we were soon opening up at King’s Dock or about to build on Stanley Park (although I have doubts that our neighbours will now be able to afford this in its current planned form). But reality is reality is reality. As I would have thought us long-suffering Evertonians would be aware of!
We are Evertonians and I am confident that we will go to Kirkby - although it is no-one’s first preference - and continue the glorious history of our club. Because we will be there.
Nil desperandum... (although I know this is the motto of another football club).
Neil McKinney
16 Posted 05/01/2008 at 11:59:09
16 Posted 05/01/2008 at 11:59:09
Well said Neil Pearse. We’re all gutted about the King’s Dock project.
The images of KD looked amazing when they came out and the location was perfect. However, it didn’t happen and there’s no point banging on about it. If you want to slag off BK for fucking it up then ok, but I have a couple of points to make.
People still argue that we can’t afford Kirkby, yet we are probably in a better position now than we were during the King’s Dock project. So why do people assume BK was an idiot for not being able to find the money for KD? It was a fucking pipe dream that’s why! After all the dreaming, I think they finally realised that we had no hope of funding it. Never mind if the project had overrun or ended up costing double what was projected (which development always does in this country).
I would be interested to know what the arena project was projected to cost, against what it actually ended up costing.
Kirkby is quite clearly not a "super stadium" in the "perfect location". It is not the very best that money can buy, because if it was, we would be looking at another King’s Dock scenario. NSNO it ain’t, realistic it is. That’s not a reason to support it, but comparisons to the King’s Dock are not a reason to rubbish it either.
KIng’s Dock is water under the bridge. Spilt milk, history. Let’s stick to discussing the Kirkby project (for or against) and forget the pipe dream that was King’s Dock.
COYB!!
The images of KD looked amazing when they came out and the location was perfect. However, it didn’t happen and there’s no point banging on about it. If you want to slag off BK for fucking it up then ok, but I have a couple of points to make.
People still argue that we can’t afford Kirkby, yet we are probably in a better position now than we were during the King’s Dock project. So why do people assume BK was an idiot for not being able to find the money for KD? It was a fucking pipe dream that’s why! After all the dreaming, I think they finally realised that we had no hope of funding it. Never mind if the project had overrun or ended up costing double what was projected (which development always does in this country).
I would be interested to know what the arena project was projected to cost, against what it actually ended up costing.
Kirkby is quite clearly not a "super stadium" in the "perfect location". It is not the very best that money can buy, because if it was, we would be looking at another King’s Dock scenario. NSNO it ain’t, realistic it is. That’s not a reason to support it, but comparisons to the King’s Dock are not a reason to rubbish it either.
KIng’s Dock is water under the bridge. Spilt milk, history. Let’s stick to discussing the Kirkby project (for or against) and forget the pipe dream that was King’s Dock.
COYB!!
Dave Trudgeon
17 Posted 05/01/2008 at 11:51:58
17 Posted 05/01/2008 at 11:51:58
Neil you make very good points and the documents also convinced me they?d tried everything
we have to move, its the only way!
Our pitch isn?t big enough, our stadium isn?t big enough, we don?t have enough corporate facilities and 12000 obstructed views in 2008 is a joke!
we have to move, its the only way!
Our pitch isn?t big enough, our stadium isn?t big enough, we don?t have enough corporate facilities and 12000 obstructed views in 2008 is a joke!
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1 Posted 04/01/2008 at 20:15:05